Maxiell/ Burke

[Sparma]

He's been a good pro. A lot of what we don't like about him isn't his fault -- getting an overly generous contract and too many minutes, especially in front of the most exciting rookie the Pistons have had since Grant Hill.

I still have some fear Burke will become the next Mateen Cleaves (regional hero who starred in NCAA but couldn't translate his game to the NBA), but I'm becoming a full-blown believer. Heard a thoughtful comparison with Chris Paul on Sirius. Nice write up about Burke and Michigan in SI. What sounds impressive is how hard he's worked to improve -- becoming faster, which is rare. It's really tough to improve, but Burke's done it through targeted work.

Even so, I could be convinced that he'd be a bit high at #5 and that Otto Porter could be the way to go. Sure wish we knew where we stood with Calderon before the draft. I'm Old School enough to love the idea of a tall front court, completed by Porter; then again, I'm Old School enough to want a traditional passing guard, be it Burke or Calderon (or both?!).

Fingers crossed that this Toronto game will turn out to be another pretty well played loss.

[Oracle]

He plays tantalizing good when the games don't count for squat!

Right now he looks like one of the best guards in the league, an All Star, but let the games count and he'll turn into a effing turd!

Sparma, #5 is high for Burke, nobody but us would take him there, and I'm not sure Joe will precisely because of size!

However, I'm not sure Porter is good enough to go that high either! joe likes big guards, and Carter-Williams is a HUGE PG! Not Magic Johnson huge, but at 6'6, he's hard to defend and he's a great defender!

[Oracle]

Call that dumb ass Frank and tell him 9 point leads don't cut it!

Tank Time Baby!!!

[Sparma]

I like the idea of a big, defensively able, PG as well. Plenty of time to discuss that #5, IF we get it.

Much as I love Calderon, if he's on his way out I don't want him to waste our draft position with an outstanding homecoming. Same feeling I have with Stuckey, even though I expect him to be back next year. Does Calderon need 43 minutes? And Monroe 38? Oh well. If we drop a few spots a new PG will become a no-brainer in the draft.

[Oracle]

[WTF]

Biggest mistake made with Maxiell was taking him out of his natural position as a SF. He should have been groomed as a backup to Tay the day he got here but that never happen. I've always said that he could have been built in the mode of Corliss. IMO had they went with this idea of playing him as a SF his career would have been much better.

Sparma, I was drinking a soda while reading your comments on Burke needless to say I gag and choke as soda came from my nose as I read the horror. Come another Mateen! I believe I had this discussion with Oracle some time ago about Mateen and he just never impressed me during his college career at MSU. Mateen was a product of over hyping and having a knack for PR flare, its different with Burke everything say's this kid is special. Burke stats are comparable to Magic Big Ten stats if not slightly better that's something Mateen couldn't do.

[Sparma]

Burke does look like the better player than Mateen, Wise. I'd be on board with drafting Burke, but I do have worries. First of all we need to nail the #5 pick down! No more 43 minute games for Calderon. Either shut Knight down (for his own sake) or experiment again with him at PG (just kidding, I think).

Concerning Burke, even Langlois (a bit apologetically) said that measuring a true 6 foot at the combine would be reassuring. He seems pretty strong, but does he have the size to be an able NBA defender? Burke's working so hard on speed and quickness means he himself is well aware of the worries concerning those characteristics. And while I think drafting become increasingly precise, I can remember Jack Givens and even our own Greg Kelser being overhyped after big tournaments.

Having said all that, I think Burke's the real deal. He'll be a good NBA PG. How good, I don't know. I'd think a Calderon-level career would be a pretty good projection. He could do a bit better, but he could easily do worse too (and I expect him to do worse as a shooter, at least, if not in the assist to TO ratio). That's not a knock on Burke, just a reminder that in some areas Calderon's really good.

Here are my two deeper worries:

a) No way would I trade Calderon and Porter for Burke. That could, in effect, be what happens. Granted the money saved on Calderon would be spent elsewhere, but if we're looking at 3 years for 21 mil, I'm not sure we'd spend that money better elsewhere. Retaining Calderon and drafting Porter would immediately give you a solid starting 5 (although I'd worry about size at guard, but that would be true with Calderon or Burke). I'm confident the superfit Calderon can be a solid performer at passing guard for 3 years, providing genuinely valuable veteran leadership.

b) Drafting Burke at 5 may be a bit of a reach (if draft boards are to be believed). I don't really mind reaching a bit if you're confident you're getting solid value as would be the case with Burke. Still, I'd wonder if there's a better player available at 5 (especially if you could retain Calderon). That's not a gripe about Burke, but simply a question if there's something even better that can be done at 5.

If we drop a spot or two, the decision could become more clearcut.

[deusXango]

It's a known fact that everybody and their neighbors dog are down on Monroe for his defense and are using that as an argument for not paying him a max deal when his contract comes around (I personally don't think his demands will be that high; this is a new day in negotiating contracts), so IMHO that's why Dumars should explore/go hard after signing Josh Smith.

Draft Burke, sign Smith and Allen as FA's, and trade for....hold your hats folks....Maurice Harkless! This is Andre Drummond's team and to come out the gate with those four players starting would be FANTASTIC! Monroe, Knight, Singler, and Kravtsov are not a bad 2nd unit to complete a rotation; English and Middleton are capable long range shooters sitting on the bench along with CV for one more year.

I don't know why fans think the CAP is going down from year to year when the product is making more and more money each year but, whatever floats your boat; it's a weak argument for not pursueing quality players though, and the doom and gloom about keeping Monroe and Knight is ludicrous.

[Oracle]

You continue to disrespect Cleaves and lie about his record! Compared to Cleaves, Magic Johnson was a college piker!!!

Why do you do that?

Cleaves wasn't a good college player, he was a GREAT one, and that has NOTHING to do with how he did in the Pros!

If you weren't impressed with Cleaves in college, you can't have been watching, or you know nothing about the college game!

I've told you this before, but you keep distorting the record!

"Michigan State's only three-time All-American in basketball ... Three-time camptain ... Ranks 14th in MSU career scoring with 1,541 points ... MSU's and Big Ten's all-time leader in assists (816) ... MSU's all-time leader in steals (195) ... Ranks among MSU's all-time leaders in 3-point field-goal attempts (5th, 457), games started (t-9th, 115), and field-goal attempts (9th, 1,331) ... 14 career double-doubles ... 74 career double-figure scoring games, including 13 20-point performances ... 18 double-figure assist games. " - [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

More cleaves - [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

[Oracle]

Burke has a 6'5 wing span as Merc pointed out, and that's a wing span bigger than he is!!! - [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

Michael Carter-Williams is listed as 6'5, and he also has a wing span of 6'5, the SAME as Burke's - [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

This may explain how Burke is so effective due to his freak proportions!

[deusXango]

Why am I so for signing Josh Smith? He's a proven top ten PF and the only player that'll be available who can force Monroe to the bench (and allow us to keep him).
Jose Calderon can't replace anyone at PG...he already has; I believe Burke or Carter-Williams would be an upgrade at PG though, simply because of the age issue. We wouldn't be looking for a PG in 2-3 years, we'd have a young seasoned one who knows the team, and the team would know him.
Tony Allen is the hard-nosed SG that would fit right in with Andre Drummonds style of play, and would compliment a thinking, skilled PG very well.
Mo Harkless has a game that's developing at a rapid pace and he has some awesome basketball instincts to match his athletisicm. IMHO he's going to be a better pro than Otto Porter Jr., and could be had for a player in need of a change of scenery, ie. Rodney Stuckey!

Dumars haven't over-spent (to acquire those players), made some heady moves that if you're a Pistons fan, you'll be excited about once they hit the floor, and we still have some favorites and youth on the team that make sense (Singler, Jerebko, English, Middleton, Kravtsov, and our "backbone" players, Monroe and Knight).

Put a coach in the locker room who knows the game and that's borne out by his accomplishments on the pro level, and has a championship ring or two. Bill Laimbeer or Brian Shaw but, I lean toward Laimbeer because of his knowledge of the fine points of big man play in the NBA.

[Oracle]

Why am I so for signing Josh Smith? He's a proven top ten PF and the only player that'll be available who can force Monroe to the bench (and allow us to keep him).
Jose Calderon can't replace anyone at PG...he already has; I believe Burke or Carter-Williams would be an upgrade at PG though, simply because of the age issue. We wouldn't be looking for a PG in 2-3 years, we'd have a young seasoned one who knows the team, and the team would know him.
Tony Allen is the hard-nosed SG that would fit right in with Andre Drummonds style of play, and would compliment a thinking, skilled PG very well.
Mo Harkless has a game that's developing at a rapid pace and he has some awesome basketball instincts to match his athletisicm. IMHO he's going to be a better pro than Otto Porter Jr., and could be had for a player in need of a change of scenery, ie. Rodney Stuckey!

Dumars haven't over-spent (to acquire those players), made some heady moves that if you're a Pistons fan, you'll be excited about once they hit the floor, and we still have some favorites and youth on the team that make sense (Singler, Jerebko, English, Middleton, Kravtsov, and our "backbone" players, Monroe and Knight).

Put a coach in the locker room who knows the game and that's borne out by his accomplishments on the pro level, and has a championship ring or two. Bill Laimbeer or Brian Shaw but, I lean toward Laimbeer because of his knowledge of the fine points of big man play in the NBA.

I like everything here, and if Joe does that, we still have money left over.

Josh Smith, Tony Allen, and one of the top PG's in the draft, and we're loaded for bear!

Maybe some additional tinkering, but that's the basics, and I guarantee we'll not only be knocking on the doors of the playoffs, we'll be kicking the door down!

Oh yeah, hopefully a new coach, but I'm not that confident on that score!

[Oracle]

Stop winning games!!!

That is all!

[WTF]

You continue to disrespect Cleaves and lie about his record! Compared to Cleaves, Magic Johnson was a college piker!!!

Why do you do that?

Cleaves wasn't a good college player, he was a GREAT one, and that has NOTHING to do with how he did in the Pros!

If you weren't impressed with Cleaves in college, you can't have been watching, or you know nothing about the college game!

I've told you this before, but you keep distorting the record!

"Michigan State's only three-time All-American in basketball ... Three-time camptain ... Ranks 14th in MSU career scoring with 1,541 points ... MSU's and Big Ten's all-time leader in assists (816) ... MSU's all-time leader in steals (195) ... Ranks among MSU's all-time leaders in 3-point field-goal attempts (5th, 457), games started (t-9th, 115), and field-goal attempts (9th, 1,331) ... 14 career double-doubles ... 74 career double-figure scoring games, including 13 20-point performances ... 18 double-figure assist games. " - [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

More cleaves - [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

Oracle this proves only a couple of things either MSU had some crappy PG or they all left early. All the above sounds great until you look at his actual averages and FG percentage then it becomes a joke. Come on he has 4 years at MSU and has only 18 double figure assist games, 13 games scoring 20-points in 4 seasons, all time attempt in 3-point FG and they somehow leave out the sh!tty FG percentage on how many he made. This page is all fluff and you know it.

[Oracle]

Wise if you don't respect accomplishments that NO ONE else has done, then you obviously don't respect anything, it's the saddest commentary I've ever seen to be honest, and to attempt to defend that crap is beyond ridiculous!

[WTF]

Wise if you don't respect accomplishments that NO ONE else has done, then you obviously don't respect anything, it's the saddest commentary I've ever seen to be honest, and to attempt to defend that crap is beyond ridiculous!

His career averages are like 12-pt and 7-ast. Take away the fact that MSU won a title and even you would be ho-hum about those stats. Mateen was decent at best as a player but was incorrectly over hyped because of the success of the team. I'm just being brutally honest

[cool bre]

While Drummond had problems last night in the first quarter he didn't let that get him down and recovered to do some positive things on the court. However, freeing up more playing time for Jerebco with Maxiell's absence has made him into a player we saw and liked in his rookie season. This was a back to back game and Jerebco seemed to get stronger as the game progressed. And Middleton is showing that he belongs in the NBA as a rotation player. I was especially impressed with his quickness on defense. He played a lot of minutes and h crunch time and he played well. It is difficult to hope our Pistons lose games even though that is the best thing for this team. But the good sof it is that over the past two games, there has been a new and beautiful spirit that I have not seen for a long time brewing in this Piston team. Maybe now that Detroit has more players on the team who can contribute, the coaching staff should not stick with a short rotation next season during those tough spells when the team has to play so many games close together while traveling from city to city. English, Middleton and Jerebco should have been playing earlier in the season. It is time to remove any idea of bringing back Maxiell and Bynum. Be smart Piston management.

[cool breeze]

I didn't know until a few minutes ago about Maxiell's detached retina. I had that experience as well and the surgery is frightening. I wouldn't be surprised if Jason has a second surgery to replace the lens as well which is often a side effect of the surgery for retina repair. I feel bad suggesting that management not bring him back and am sorry for that. If Jason does return to the NBA he should wear protective goggles for the rest of his career. It is very scary to lose sight in one of your eyes as a young athlete. Good luck Jason!

[WTF]

All the top contestant for this award has been sent packing in the tournament except for one "Trey Burke" shockingly there's not one Cardinal or Orangemen player listed as a finalist. One would think this would make Burke a shoe in but hey you know "Politics"

Who knows a champion when they see one? Bobby Knight does. To hear him rave this morning about a PG yet along a Michigan Wolverine Trey Burke simply made me smile this morning. This guy did coach one Isiah Lord Thomas a Omen perhaps.

Why in the hell are we winning games? They've been playing crappy prideless basketball all season why change now as if it's going to erase what already happen. It's not GO PISTONS at this point it's NO PISTONS as in don't win another game.

[Sebastian]

First off, I wish Maxey a successful recovery and as I posted, yesterday, and hope that he is able to continue his NBA career with hopefully obtaining a new contract when becoming a free agent and also the same to Will B., as I think that he is currently dealing with an injury of his own.

But, could it be that playing time devoted to Maxey and Will B., contributed to the derailing of OUR season.

As WE are all aware, Maxey started at the PF position and played an average of 24.8 mins. (19.1 career mins.) this season. Maxey was taking minutes from Dre Drummond, Moose, as Monroe should had been the starting PF for much of the season and Dre the starting center. Maxey also took minutes from Jerebko, so much so that Jerebko's picture was appearing on the side of milk cartons during the months of December, January, and February.

Then there is the ball hogging, Will B. A guy, who has proven from time to time to be a spark plug off of the bench. But, in retrospect the 18.4 minutes that he has averaged per game has taken away from minutes that could had been given to English or Middleton. Additionally, the time that Will B. was on the floor he was taking time and dulled the effectiveness of Stuckey, as it has been proven that Stuckey a much more effective player when the offensive position starts with the ball in his hands.

So as I think out loud, it is my opinion that Maxey and Will B.'s presence and floor time this season may have stunted the development and contributions of potentially floor players.

And, I still am not sure why Singler is getting starters minutes. As I have said since his emergence, he (Singler) is a 8th or 9th-man on any teams' roster.

[WTF]

Seb, what do you really expect with a roster full of backup and role players. I would be hard press to find more than 2 players on this team that actaully qualify as true NBA starters. Drummond should be starting just basis of being a pure athletic beast with game changing abilities. Calderon is a fringe starter in large part he just happen to be the only real PG on the team.

Even with Monroe and Knight some thinking has been that they would more valueable as backup. This roster is structurally bad and been this way for some time that many can't even recognize or forgotten what a starter really looks like anymore. The Singler playing starter minutes are insane, but IMO so is thinking that somehow theres hope to be found in the likes of English, Middleton, and JJ.

Fat Joe has three immediate needs to fill on this roster and three need to be immediate impact players at the SG, SF, and PF positions. If he fails to resign Calderon then that's 4 positions that will need addressing.

[Sebastian]

Seb, what do you really expect with a roster full of backup and role players. I would be hard press to find more than 2 players on this team that actaully qualify as true NBA starters. Drummond should be starting just basis of being a pure athletic beast with game changing abilities. Calderon is a fringe starter in large part he just happen to be the only real PG on the team.

Even with Monroe and Knight some thinking has been that they would more valueable as backup. This roster is structurally bad and been this way for some time that many can't even recognize or forgotten what a starter really looks like anymore. The Singler playing starter minutes are insane, but IMO so is thinking that somehow theres hope to be found in the likes of English, Middleton, and JJ.

Wise, it is true that OUR current roster is a collection of serviceable parts, with perhaps two, maybe three starters.

A careful inventory of the roster will be necessary going forward. Allow me to preface the following recommendations with this statement: I respect all of the opinions forwarded by fellow Pistons Pals and suspect that there will continue to be many more suggestions posted, as the draft day nears and the free agency period begins, but here is what I am thinking, today:

Keep: Dre Drummond, Moose, B. Knight, Stuckey, Jerebko, Charlie V., the Ukraine, and English.

Allow to walk: Calderon, Maggette, Will B., and Maxey.

Trade: The 2013 1st Round Pick (to Orlando) and Middleton for Moe Harkless (Although a slightly different idea, I got the thought of acquiring Harkless from an earlier post by DX.) It can easily be argued that Harkless, who would be a sophomore in college, after a full NBA season, is a better player and will become a better player than any of the projected top 10 picks, in this year's draft. I, however, would like to see Harkless, as OUR starting shooting guard.

Trade: Singler to San Antonio for their late first round pick and draft the kid out of Murray State, PG Isaiah Canaan. I know it is going to be hard for my fellow Big Mitten friends to believe, but this kid is just as good, if not better than the highly advertised, Trey Burke.

Free Agency: Go get Josh Smith (SF/PF), Marreese Speights (PF/C), Anthony Morrow (a low budget knock down shooter - SG).

On April 18, schedule a noon press conference announcing the firing of Head Coach L. Frank. A week later schedule a press conference announcing the hiring of Isiah Thomas.

Then WE roll with:

PG - Stuckey/B. Knight/Canaan
SG - Moe Harkless/Morrow/English
SF - Josh Smith/Jerebko
PF - Moose/Speights/Charlie V.
C - Dre/The Ukraine

Again, before you'll pile on me, allow me to explain:

Stuckey's value to OUR roster is too great at 4.5 million, next season. The dude can play this game. He can guard the position and he can cause problems for opposing PGs. Also, he's a veteran, now.

B. Knight would make a hellafide, first guard off of the bench. He can push the ball and hit the three and would be a great option as the third guard at about 28-32 minutes per night.

Harkless as mentioned above, is a young talented player, who would give US the prerequisite size advantaged that is needed at the SG position. He moves well without the ball and has range on his jumper and the kid is still very young and only getting better.

Josh Smith would be worth every penny. The guy is entering the stage of his career, when he will make his fame. He's still young; can do everything on both ends of the floor and most of all he can stick with and is respected by all of the major 3's (Labron, Melo, Gay, Gallinari, Paul George, etc.) in the League and of course he can always move over to the 4, when teams try their "small ball" lineups.

Moose and Dre are a package deal. Much like the Grizzlies are running in Memphis with Z-Bo and Gasol. Teams will have to adjust to these two, making the game much easier for the remainder of the roster.

Jerebko's roll would be vital, as he will need to be able to continue to be the active player that he has proven to be when healthy and when given the minutes.

Speight's can be that banger, pick-setter, who can play quality minutes at the 4 and 5, whenever called upon.

English and Morrow can shoot it out and both can provide the "long gun" when needed and English can play the defense that will be necessary, when playing against opposing shooters.

Charlie V. can be the weapon off the bench, when needed. Also, he offers some salary relief, when it will be time to extend Moose.

The Ukraine can help to spot Moose and/or Dre, when needed.

And, I'm telling you'll this Canaan kid can play. (A younger, cheaper version of Will B.)

[Oracle]

While Drummond had problems last night in the first quarter he didn't let that get him down and recovered to do some positive things on the court. However, freeing up more playing time for Jerebco with Maxiell's absence has made him into a player we saw and liked in his rookie season. This was a back to back game and Jerebco seemed to get stronger as the game progressed. And Middleton is showing that he belongs in the NBA as a rotation player. I was especially impressed with his quickness on defense. He played a lot of minutes and h crunch time and he played well. It is difficult to hope our Pistons lose games even though that is the best thing for this team. But the good sof it is that over the past two games, there has been a new and beautiful spirit that I have not seen for a long time brewing in this Piston team. Maybe now that Detroit has more players on the team who can contribute, the coaching staff should not stick with a short rotation next season during those tough spells when the team has to play so many games close together while traveling from city to city. English, Middleton and Jerebco should have been playing earlier in the season. It is time to remove any idea of bringing back Maxiell and Bynum. Be smart Piston management.

Good post Don, JJ & Middleton are proving the stupidity of not allowing them to contribute on a rebuilding team!

Drummond has ignited this new found spirit because of the hope he brings to everyone on the roster and the coaches!

If you watch Drummond you can see he's not conditioned and his timing is still off, but his presence is undeniable!

The truly sad part is that I agreed with Joe & Frank to limit Drummonds minutes!

The part they didn't get is that you can do that even if he starts, because that's effectively what they're doing now, and could have been doing a lot earlier!

[Oracle]

Seb, don't fall for Wise's limited thinking on this one!

When we call for Knight or Monroe to come off the bench, it's not because we think they're bench players for life, it's a recognition of where they are now and how best to field a team capable of doing damage in the playoffs next year.

My confidence that knight will be a potent starter is not as high as my FULL confidence that Monroe is going to be a BEAST in a few years!

I'm also impressed with Middleton! He's a role player right now for sure, but this kid has talent, and we just don't know how far it will take him, but Wise likes to pidegon hole people for some reason.

BTW, what's wrong with being a role player?

The last time I looked, no team wins it all without a lot of role players!

So when you find good ones, you shouldn't be throwing them away of discounting the value of their contribution!

[Oracle]

Wise, you're hopless!!!

But we do mostly agree here,

"Fat Joe has three immediate needs to fill on this roster and three need to be immediate impact players at the SG, SF, and PF positions. If he fails to resign Calderon then that's 4 positions that will need addressing." - Wise

If we get Burke or Carter-Williams, I don't see the need for wrong way Calderon!

I'll miss his 3pt shooting, but with our luck, next season he'll miss all of the 3's he's making now

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