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Post  Sebastian on Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:36 pm

lemonpen wrote:Tried to take an objective look at Josh Smith, the free agent, who is seeking a max contract. I evaluated his performance for last 7 seasons of a 9 yr career.
Pros:
strong rebounder (7yrs 8.5/gm; 7.2-9.6)
decent passer for his position (7yrs 3.5 a/gm; 2.4-4.2)
durable both in terms of min/gm and games per season (7yrs 77 gm/season, 94% availability)
fg% is high when excluding 3pt attempts (7yrs 49.1 FG%; 47.3-51.4)
46 playoff games played. Statistically speaking only his FG% suffered. (7yrs 41.8%)
Poor 3pt % is overblown in that he has taken no more than 2.6 3FGA/gm. (7yrs 1.6 3FGA/gm; 0.1-2.6)
very good shot blocker (career 2.1 b/gm; 1.6-2.9)


Cons:
avg over 17ppg only once. (7yrs 16.8 ppg; 15.6-18.Cool
never named an All-Star
turnover prone. (7yrs 2.7/gm; 2.3-3.2)
assist to TO ratio kinda low (7yrs 1.3 A:TO; 1.0-1.7)
poor free throw shooter. below 70% 5 of 7 yrs (7yrs 64%; 50-72) .
FTA/gm trending down from good to mediocre. 2yr incremental avg of 5.6/5.2/4.5/3.9 (7yrs 4.9 FTA/gm)

Note:
as seasonal 3FGA/gm rises, FTA/gm fall.

scoring efficiency for some max $$$ players & others (points generated per shot taken; FG% inside arc)
moose: 1.22-1.39; 48%
BK7: 1.09-1.15; 44%
Harden: 1.46-1.66; 49%
Durant: 1.40-1.59; 53%
James: 1.42-1.48; 59%
Wade: 1.29-1.31; 54%
Melo: 1.21-1.31; 46%
Kobe: 1.21-1.33; 51%
Smith: 1.09-1.22; 49%

IMHO Smith is a jack of many trades and a master of few. It would be a risky proposition to offer him a max deal.

Yo, Lemon, I must commend you on your research regarding Josh Smith's career to this point.

I have to admit that I am in the "sign Josh Smith in Free Agency" camp, but I do believe that the pimp, Daryl Morey (Houston Rockets GM) has a few tricks up his sleeve that will be unleashed in an effort to acquire Smith.

If WE can't get Smith, then Joe should go after Millsap, he would be a bit cheaper than Smith while affording the Pistons an opportunity to have a "real" SF, who can also play minutes at the PF position.

Also, Joe should seriously talk to the Kings, or by the time Draft night comes to the Sonics, about swapping Moose and OUR draft position (if better than the Kings/Sonics) with the Kings/Sonics for Cousins. Then OUR front line would be both, fierce and flexible.

If WE are drafting in 8th or 9th spot, again, this year, we can forget about drafting Otto Porter, Jr., as he would be a great young addition to OUR roster, but I would pass on both, Oladipo and Burke, as I am not totally down on either player, but just don't think that these two are the additions that should be made to the roster at this time.

Joe should draft Tony Mitchell (6'8 1/2", SF - North Texas).

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Buckets & Moose

Post  Oracle on Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:38 pm

Don't hold your breath for Buckets to start hitting again, or Moose to get more athletic!

The comments from the article I posted reveals this for each...

Singler - "While you were reading this, Harrison Barnes just beat Singler for another dunk."

Moose - "Monroe’s defensive has never been stellar, but it has really fallen off lately. In the last six games, the Pistons have allowed 120.5 points per 100 possessions with him on the floor (107.7 off). The Warriors’ parade of dunks wasn’t completely Monroe’s fault and probably not even mostly Monroe’s fault, but he didn’t do much to stop it.

Monroe usually makes up for his positional-defense struggles on the other end, but he didn’t do so tonight. Not overly athletic, Monroe especially lacked elevation. He had four layups blocked. Andrew Bogut is an excellent defender, and that partially explains Monroe’s struggles, but Monroe can play well enough offensively to supersede good defense. He mostly got good shots tonight. He just missed most of them.

Monroe also must master arguing calls while running back on defense. Standing beneath the opponent’s rim and yelling at the ref is part of the reason his defensive rating is so poor."
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J-Smoove, Food For Thought

Post  WTF on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:17 pm

lemonpen wrote:Tried to take an objective look at Josh Smith, the free agent, who is seeking a max contract. I evaluated his performance for last 7 seasons of a 9 yr career.
Pros:
strong rebounder (7yrs 8.5/gm; 7.2-9.6)
decent passer for his position (7yrs 3.5 a/gm; 2.4-4.2)
durable both in terms of min/gm and games per season (7yrs 77 gm/season, 94% availability)
fg% is high when excluding 3pt attempts (7yrs 49.1 FG%; 47.3-51.4)
46 playoff games played. Statistically speaking only his FG% suffered. (7yrs 41.8%)
Poor 3pt % is overblown in that he has taken no more than 2.6 3FGA/gm. (7yrs 1.6 3FGA/gm; 0.1-2.6)
very good shot blocker (career 2.1 b/gm; 1.6-2.9)


Cons:
avg over 17ppg only once. (7yrs 16.8 ppg; 15.6-18.Cool
never named an All-Star
turnover prone. (7yrs 2.7/gm; 2.3-3.2)
assist to TO ratio kinda low (7yrs 1.3 A:TO; 1.0-1.7)
poor free throw shooter. below 70% 5 of 7 yrs (7yrs 64%; 50-72) .
FTA/gm trending down from good to mediocre. 2yr incremental avg of 5.6/5.2/4.5/3.9 (7yrs 4.9 FTA/gm)

Note:
as seasonal 3FGA/gm rises, FTA/gm fall.

scoring efficiency for some max $$$ players & others (points generated per shot taken; FG% inside arc)
moose: 1.22-1.39; 48%
BK7: 1.09-1.15; 44%
Harden: 1.46-1.66; 49%
Durant: 1.40-1.59; 53%
James: 1.42-1.48; 59%
Wade: 1.29-1.31; 54%
Melo: 1.21-1.31; 46%
Kobe: 1.21-1.33; 51%
Smith: 1.09-1.22; 49%

IMHO Smith is a jack of many trades and a master of few. It would be a risky proposition to offer him a max deal.

There's another story stats of don't tell about players. You can't find a stat that measure heart and all the other intangibles about his defense that not measured with a stat. IMO it risky business all away around no matter what you do, but you take chances anyway and that's where Joe gets an Big E because he's looking for sure bets that often turn into big mistakes.

You can say the above statement lemonpen about everyplayer in the league. We could draft the top player and be ass out because he slip on a banana then your second guessing should we take someone else. Look what happened with Drummond he has us all crossing our fingers, toes, arms and eyes hoping his injury isn't a bad omen. Smith is worth the risk if theres any risk at all IMO.

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Smith

Post  Oracle on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:28 pm

Lemonpen did a great analysis, and his conclusion that Smith as a max player is a risk is 100% spot on!

However, IMO, the risk doesn't lie with Smith the player, but who he's surrounded with!

The real question is if we're ready to accomidate a player like Smith, or will he be wasted while we are trying to get our act together.

Because we've has such piss poor coaching, we don't know a lot about where our players fit, which ones have the best chemistry, in fact, we really don't know squat! I see that as a problem when we go shopping because it puts us in the position of shopping for what we think we need, not what we know we need!

I KNOW it was LB driving the Sheed train because he KNEW what we needed! He may not have known it would produce the high octane that we got, but he at least knew the hole that needed filling!

Even if Joe gets the players, without proper coaching, we'll continue to ask a lot of fundamental questions, blast players for not fulfilling what we thought they could do, and getting down on the team.

It'll be coaching, but most fans can't see that, they just see the results and make judgements!
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Re: FORUM

Post  WTF on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:42 pm

Oracle wrote:Lemonpen did a great analysis, and his conclusion that Smith as a max player is a risk is 100% spot on!

However, IMO, the risk doesn't lie with Smith the player, but who he's surrounded with!

The real question is if we're ready to accomidate a player like Smith, or will he be wasted while we are trying to get our act together.

Because we've has such piss poor coaching, we don't know a lot about where our players fit, which ones have the best chemistry, in fact, we really don't know squat! I see that as a problem when we go shopping because it puts us in the position of shopping for what we think we need, not what we know we need!

I KNOW it was LB driving the Sheed train because he KNEW what we needed! He may not have known it would produce the high octane that we got, but he at least knew the hole that needed filling!

Even if Joe gets the players, without proper coaching, we'll continue to ask a lot of fundamental questions, blast players for not fulfilling what we thought they could do, and getting down on the team.

It'll be coaching, but most fans can't see that, they just see the results and make judgements!

It's a little bit of both Oracle we don't have a decent roster although we have some potentially nice pieces. You can't ask a coach to turn a turd into a diamond. We can't scream for upgrades if it solely coaching just fire Frank and keep the stuff we got and hire a magician to turn these turds into winners.

But I agree with you if Joe goes out and swing for the fence then he better get a coach that can produce. Maybe they need to be courting Sloan out of retirement. Not like Frank was signed to a Sh!t Load of Money so they can very well dumped him and pay the last year of his contract.
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Coaching

Post  Oracle on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:19 pm

WISEFAN wrote:It's a little bit of both Oracle we don't have a decent roster although we have some potentially nice pieces. You can't ask a coach to turn a turd into a diamond. We can't scream for upgrades if it solely coaching just fire Frank and keep the stuff we got and hire a magician to turn these turds into winners.

But I agree with you if Joe goes out and swing for the fence then he better get a coach that can produce. Maybe they need to be courting Sloan out of retirement. Not like Frank was signed to a Sh!t Load of Money so they can very well dumped him and pay the last year of his contract.

I agree, but with one small quibble!

Most people respond the way you did, and every time I get on Frank, the same thing comes back, what I placed in bold above!

That's not what I'm asking, and of course even good coaching can't work miracles! So that isn't the point, the point is that a good coach will get the most out of whatever you have!

A good coach will lose, but the other team will have to EARN it every night! Last night the Pistons made the Warriors EARN a victory! That game was entertaining!

Do you seriously think that this team under LB would have this up and down crap going on? No, they would be putting out maximum effort or they wouldn't be playing!

It's coaching that defeats all the bottom feeders in the eastern conference that we constantly lose to! Coaching would have snatched victory in those games because undiciplined teams make more mistakes, and that's the key!

Frank's team reflects Frank's ability to extend dicipline to his troops, and of course if you give him diciplined players, he'll look good, and maybe some of his stuff will work better, but underneath, it's still STANK!
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:55 pm

Oracle wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:It's a little bit of both Oracle we don't have a decent roster although we have some potentially nice pieces. You can't ask a coach to turn a turd into a diamond. We can't scream for upgrades if it solely coaching just fire Frank and keep the stuff we got and hire a magician to turn these turds into winners.

But I agree with you if Joe goes out and swing for the fence then he better get a coach that can produce. Maybe they need to be courting Sloan out of retirement. Not like Frank was signed to a Sh!t Load of Money so they can very well dumped him and pay the last year of his contract.

I agree, but with one small quibble!

Most people respond the way you did, and every time I get on Frank, the same thing comes back, what I placed in bold above!

That's not what I'm asking, and of course even good coaching can't work miracles! So that isn't the point, the point is that a good coach will get the most out of whatever you have!

A good coach will lose, but the other team will have to EARN it every night! Last night the Pistons made the Warriors EARN a victory! That game was entertaining!

Do you seriously think that this team under LB would have this up and down crap going on? No, they would be putting out maximum effort or they wouldn't be playing!

It's coaching that defeats all the bottom feeders in the eastern conference that we constantly lose to! Coaching would have snatched victory in those games because undiciplined teams make more mistakes, and that's the key!

Frank's team reflects Frank's ability to extend dicipline to his troops, and of course if you give him diciplined players, he'll look good, and maybe some of his stuff will work better, but underneath, it's still STANK!

One additional thing should be mentioned. Wisefan you are right regarding the fact that this core group of Piston players have significant weaknesses. But we all knew that before the season started. This one fact should cook Frank's goose after this season. Every team has to have a system and the team needs to embrace the system. I can't tell what the system is on both offense and defense. Prince must be so happy to not have to figure out Frank's system anymore. Players have been talking about missing rotations on defense. As I look at the various rotation players this season, it is clear that there is something wrong that has not been corrected by the coachng staff. This team has the same problems stopping the opposition that they did last season. The big men seem to be out of position most of the time. When you look at the starting unit, you see Monroe wondering out in the 3 point line area and he just cannot recover to make any impact regarding guarding his man or securing defensive rebounds. Maxiell is so small that he cannot handle the load of covering for Monroe. Plus Maxiell's biggest weakness has always been lack of ability to get defensive rebounds. Maybe that is why Detroit needs to get a guy like Smith or someone who can guard the paint and make up for Monroe's mistakes. Finally do the players actually know what they are supposed to do within Frank's system? It sure doesn't look like it. Maybe the team needs to go to a more simple style. Frank made a big mistake when saying to the press that there are some players on this team who only want to play with certain players. Frank calls them situation players and sends them to the bench. Players are expressing concern that Frank's system is not functioning correctly partly because of the players he plays together. The players might have issues but this coaching staff has to take the responsibility for the fact that this late in the season and the players are still confused and look as if they have had no coaching at all at times.

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Don & speaking of Prince

Post  Oracle on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:06 pm

cool breeze wrote:
One additional thing should be mentioned. Wisefan you are right regarding the fact that this core group of Piston players have significant weaknesses. But we all knew that before the season started. This one fact should cook Frank's goose after this season. Every team has to have a system and the team needs to embrace the system. I can't tell what the system is on both offense and defense. Prince must be so happy to not have to figure out Frank's system anymore. Players have been talking about missing rotations on defense. As I look at the various rotation players this season, it is clear that there is something wrong that has not been corrected by the coachng staff. This team has the same problems stopping the opposition that they did last season. The big men seem to be out of position most of the time. When you look at the starting unit, you see Monroe wondering out in the 3 point line area and he just cannot recover to make any impact regarding guarding his man or securing defensive rebounds. Maxiell is so small that he cannot handle the load of covering for Monroe. Plus Maxiell's biggest weakness has always been lack of ability to get defensive rebounds. Maybe that is why Detroit needs to get a guy like Smith or someone who can guard the paint and make up for Monroe's mistakes. Finally do the players actually know what they are supposed to do within Frank's system? It sure doesn't look like it. Maybe the team needs to go to a more simple style. Frank made a big mistake when saying to the press that there are some players on this team who only want to play with certain players. Frank calls them situation players and sends them to the bench. Players are expressing concern that Frank's system is not functioning correctly partly because of the players he plays together. The players might have issues but this coaching staff has to take the responsibility for the fact that this late in the season and the players are still confused and look as if they have had no coaching at all at times.

Excellent point, I can't tell what system we're using on either side of the ball, and if we're confused, who knows what the players think!

Whatever it is, it's clear that the system is not designed for us to win games and advance the skills of the players!

Don, thanks for bringing up Prince! I planned to post on this last night, but got sleepy Smile

Prince & the Grizzlies went into the domain of the Clippers and took them apart! I forget Princes other numbers, but he scored 18 points and generally had a good game in a HUGE game for them as they battle the Clippers for the coveted 3rd spot in the west!

I'm so happy for Prince and Memphis has just become my favorite team in the west as I will be rooting for him to win, even though CB is on the Clippers! Prince still has 2-3 more years left in that tank because fundamentals and experience survive as skills fade!

Go Prince!!!
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2004 Pistons just like the Bad Boys

Post  Oracle on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:11 pm

Although just like in championships, the 2004 team always comes up a bit short, but they're doing the same thing!

After both of their glory days they seeded the NBA with their talent to go to teams that did pretty well.

Sheed to Boston, CB to Denver & the Clippers, Hamilton/Ben to the Bulls, and now Prince to the Griz.

Now, they can't match what the Worm did when he went to the Bulls, but you get the picture!
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J-Smoove

Post  lemonpen on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:13 pm

WISEFAN wrote:
There's another story stats of don't tell about players. You can't find a stat that measure heart and all the other intangibles about his defense that not measured with a stat. IMO it risky business all away around no matter what you do, but you take chances anyway and that's where Joe gets an Big E because he's looking for sure bets that often turn into big mistakes.

You can say the above statement lemonpen about everyplayer in the league. We could draft the top player and be ass out because he slip on a banana then your second guessing should we take someone else. Look what happened with Drummond he has us all crossing our fingers, toes, arms and eyes hoping his injury isn't a bad omen. Smith is worth the risk if theres any risk at all IMO.


If you have to look for intangibles to support the deal then he most certainly dosen't deserve a MAX contract. Generally speaking those guys cups are overflowing with TANGIBLES. You don't need to look below the surface for more supporting evidence, their stats, accomplishments, and reputation should be sufficient to sign the check. I'll say this again, his peers have yet to see him as one of the best of the best.
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All I'm Saying

Post  WTF on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:01 pm

Oracle wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:It's a little bit of both Oracle we don't have a decent roster although we have some potentially nice pieces. You can't ask a coach to turn a turd into a diamond. We can't scream for upgrades if it solely coaching just fire Frank and keep the stuff we got and hire a magician to turn these turds into winners.

But I agree with you if Joe goes out and swing for the fence then he better get a coach that can produce. Maybe they need to be courting Sloan out of retirement. Not like Frank was signed to a Sh!t Load of Money so they can very well dumped him and pay the last year of his contract.

I agree, but with one small quibble!

Most people respond the way you did, and every time I get on Frank, the same thing comes back, what I placed in bold above!

That's not what I'm asking, and of course even good coaching can't work miracles! So that isn't the point, the point is that a good coach will get the most out of whatever you have!

A good coach will lose, but the other team will have to EARN it every night! Last night the Pistons made the Warriors EARN a victory! That game was entertaining!

Do you seriously think that this team under LB would have this up and down crap going on? No, they would be putting out maximum effort or they wouldn't be playing!

It's coaching that defeats all the bottom feeders in the eastern conference that we constantly lose to! Coaching would have snatched victory in those games because undiciplined teams make more mistakes, and that's the key!

Frank's team reflects Frank's ability to extend dicipline to his troops, and of course if you give him diciplined players, he'll look good, and maybe some of his stuff will work better, but underneath, it's still STANK!

Rick was a hard-nosed coach, LB was a no non-sense coach, and Flip was a quietly stubborn coach. I agree that any of these three would have produced a better record with this bunch but it wouldn't be anything to cheer about. Still don't we would be a .500 ball club so even if LF was half the coach of these three and produced 10 more wins we still need major upgrades at least at 3 positions. I see your point but this could be looked at from both a roster and coaching perspective. The 4 top paid players on this team produces the least on this roster, and one of them starts at PF and he's the least paid.
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J-Smoove

Post  WTF on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:19 pm

lemonpen wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:
There's another story stats of don't tell about players. You can't find a stat that measure heart and all the other intangibles about his defense that not measured with a stat. IMO it risky business all away around no matter what you do, but you take chances anyway and that's where Joe gets an Big E because he's looking for sure bets that often turn into big mistakes.

You can say the above statement lemonpen about everyplayer in the league. We could draft the top player and be ass out because he slip on a banana then your second guessing should we take someone else. Look what happened with Drummond he has us all crossing our fingers, toes, arms and eyes hoping his injury isn't a bad omen. Smith is worth the risk if theres any risk at all IMO.


If you have to look for intangibles to support the deal then he most certainly dosen't deserve a MAX contract. Generally speaking those guys cups are overflowing with TANGIBLES. You don't need to look below the surface for more supporting evidence, their stats, accomplishments, and reputation should be sufficient to sign the check. I'll say this again, his peers have yet to see him as one of the best of the best.

For real lemonpen where did you get that from. Because he has yet to play in an All Star Game. I hope that's not what you referring to with the peers stuff we all know that's political worthy players get bumped their entire careers. You have to look at the intangible its not all about stats, it chemistry and other things. Stats are what made Joe sign BG and CV to contracts he later regretted. Smith worth it because he best fit next to Monroe, because he's a better defender. Those thing are equally if not more important than stats.
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Wise

Post  Oracle on Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:04 pm

I'm not sure how roster plays any role in what we're talking about!

We've fixed the roster, so drop that from the conversation!

With the fixed roster, the 3 coaches you named would smoke a Frank coached team.

In order of how I think they would do:

1. Carlisle. because I believe that he would play a deeper lineup, and that's good for a young team.

2. LB would probably have the more fundamentally sound and hard working team, but at some point he would shorten the lineup, and for a young team, that's not the ideal!

3. Flip is a great coach for a veteran squad, but youngsters would struggle with his playbook, both offensively and defensively. However, they would get just enough to do better than we're doing now!

I just think that with our talent level and experience, Frank is not the coach I would choose, and neither is Flip for that matter!
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LIL' LARRY

Post  deusXango on Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:29 am

At the time of his firing in New Jersey, what was the talent base like? What was the veteran makeup of the Nets at the time of Lil' Larry's infamous start that got his ass fired? I'm so sick of hearing the excuses about our youth being the reason he can't function at a high level, make sound decisions, or set a rightous rotation, I don't know what to do! Lil' Larry took the type talent we've talked about and stunk up the Meadowlands with it....he's a glorified waterboy, not a top flight professional basketball coach, and we all know it. I'm back to Nate McMillan or Bill Laimbeer as head coach!
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DX: Nate McMillan should be the first choice

Post  Oracle on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:51 am

deusXango wrote:At the time of his firing in New Jersey, what was the talent base like? What was the veteran makeup of the Nets at the time of Lil' Larry's infamous start that got his ass fired? I'm so sick of hearing the excuses about our youth being the reason he can't function at a high level, make sound decisions, or set a rightous rotation, I don't know what to do! Lil' Larry took the type talent we've talked about and stunk up the Meadowlands with it....he's a glorified waterboy, not a top flight professional basketball coach, and we all know it. I'm back to Nate McMillan or Bill Laimbeer as head coach!

Good response to Franks Foibles!

I know some want Zeke, or bringing Sloan out of retirement, but IMO, there are two logical candidates for our next coach, and you not only NAILED them, you nailed them in the exact order I would like to see!

Go after Nate, and if that doesn't work, go after Bill! No if's ands or butt holes, this is the way it is! Laimbeer deserves a shot here in Detroit, but Nate's record overall and his record growing a young talented team makes him #1 in my book.

Cast your peepers on his Western Conference record!

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Let me give you A list of good coaches SOUR CYNIC, You SILLY PRICK!!

Post  Phil1980boy on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:57 am

Some of you will be surprised by some of the coaches I have on this list.

1. Byron Scott. Perfect coach for what were trying to do in Detroit. Defense first, good with point guards, respected by all in the NBA and has pushed A good team to the NBA Finals unlike Flip Mr Softy Saunders who had A better balanced team but could not get it done!

2. Doc Rivers... No more needs to be said.


3. Montie Williams the N.O. Hornets coach. One of the best young coaches in the NBA.

4. Jacque Vaughn the Orlando Magic coach. Telling you people this guy knows what he is doing down in Orlando. I expect him to be coach of the year within the next two years. I have seen him out-coach L.Frank 2 different times this season.

5. Brian Shaw. Pacers assistant head coach. This guy has put in work with Phil Jackson and now the Pacers. I expect him to be A head coach very very soon. The Pistons would be lucky to get they hands on this guy.

I should had took Doc off this list but these are the 5 best coaches I have seen so far the past 2 season.
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Monroe: Interesting

Post  Oracle on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:59 am

I almost didn't read this piece because it sounded like a fluff piece, and it was, but there were a few nuggest of info in there. One of them that surprised me was this,

"He doesn't get involved in personnel matters but, unsolicited, he went to the front office during the college basketball season and asked the Pistons to take a long hard look at Andre Drummond." - Monroe

Greg Monroe keeps optimism high for Pistons
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Talent?????

Post  WTF on Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:37 am

deusXango wrote:At the time of his firing in New Jersey, what was the talent base like? What was the veteran makeup of the Nets at the time of Lil' Larry's infamous start that got his ass fired? I'm so sick of hearing the excuses about our youth being the reason he can't function at a high level, make sound decisions, or set a rightous rotation, I don't know what to do! Lil' Larry took the type talent we've talked about and stunk up the Meadowlands with it....he's a glorified waterboy, not a top flight professional basketball coach, and we all know it. I'm back to Nate McMillan or Bill Laimbeer as head coach!

DX I want you to go back and look at the Nets roster from 2006 up until the time he was fired. I hope this isn't the kind of talent we're all hoping for. I'm not debating the level of coach both you and Oracle are saying LF is, or that we wouldn't have a slightly better record with a different coach. While LF is an obvious issue so is the make up of this team. I just think the LF level of blaming is over-kill when there are 80 other things wrong with this team.
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J-Smoove

Post  lemonpen on Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:55 am

WISEFAN wrote: For real lemonpen where did you get that from. Because he has yet to play in an All Star Game. I hope that's not what you referring to with the peers stuff we all know that's political worthy players get bumped their entire careers. You have to look at the intangible its not all about stats, it chemistry and other things. Stats are what made Joe sign BG and CV to contracts he later regretted. Smith worth it because he best fit next to Monroe, because he's a better defender. Those thing are equally if not more important than stats.

"For real lemonpen where did you get that from. Because he has yet to play in an All Star Game."
Absolutely. He hasn't even been selected a reserve, by his peers, not fans.

"I hope that's not what you referring to with the peers stuff we all know that's political worthy players get bumped their entire careers."
Which of the most highly compensated guys have been bumped for their entire careers? Name some.
Wise, do you know that of the top 29 paid players only Rudy Gay #20, Al Jefferson #23, and Eric Gordon #28 have not been selected All Stars. They are not the big boys of the sport.
So why don’t we make Smith the forth non All Star at a salary that ranks him well within the top 15.

"intangible its not all about stats, it chemistry and other things. Stats are what made Joe sign BG and CV to contracts he later regretted"
Screw the intangibles. Michael Curry was considered a leader. Look at this from the other side of the locker room door where it really matters. Everyone in the locker room will expect Smith to be the MoFo MAN every night on the hardwood. IMO he isn’t capable.

"Smith worth it because he best fit next to Monroe, because he's a better defender. Those thing are equally if not more important than stats."
Ben Wallace was a terrific defender and leader with goo-gobs of heart, but when he could not be the Mofo Man for the Bulls where games are won or lost things got ugly fast.

Smith is a good player and would complement our team, but not with a sky-is-the-limit-contract.


Last edited by lemonpen on Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Back room stuff

Post  lemonpen on Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:17 am

Oracle wrote:I almost didn't read this piece because it sounded like a fluff piece, and it was, but there were a few nuggest of info in there. One of them that surprised me was this,

"He doesn't get involved in personnel matters but, unsolicited, he went to the front office during the college basketball season and asked the Pistons to take a long hard look at Andre Drummond." - Monroe

Greg Monroe keeps optimism high for Pistons

Do you think Joe will invite Greg's opinion. Either on players or coaches future.
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Intangibles Allow You To Seeing A Bigger and Clearer Picture

Post  WTF on Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:22 am

lemonpen I respect your opinion on rather J.Smith is worthy of a max deal "However" IMO is sounds more like a personal thing than one of facts. Using examples of Michael Curry of all people and Big Ben failures in Chi-Town proves it when there simply no comparing the intangibles of the 2 player stats of other-wise.

Curry was a joke and only the creation of the local media and fan base, Big Ben thought to highly of himself that he could be effective outside of the system he found comfort in with the Pistons. Big Ben forgot what his role was or in other words forgot he was a role player.

There's been a bunch of top payed players that didn't see an All Star game until late in their careers, it seem that at the age of 26 you have already capped J Smoove ceiling and potential of becoming an All Star. Z-Bo is how many years in and he just been in 2 All Star games, Antawn Jamison been in the league forever one time Max player and only been an All Star twice. Come on Elton Brand had 2 Max Deals and never made an All Star game. All I'm saying is that Max Deals and All Star Games don't always go hand in hand. It's not about what you're peers may be thinking it about fans voting, what coaches are thinking, and yes even Stern gets his say in all of it.

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Intangibles Allow You To Seeing A Bigger and Clearer Picture

Post  lemonpen on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:42 pm

WISEFAN wrote:lemonpen I respect your opinion on rather J.Smith is worthy of a max deal "However" IMO is sounds more like a personal thing than one of facts. Using examples of Michael Curry of all people and Big Ben failures in Chi-Town proves it when there simply no comparing the intangibles of the 2 player stats of other-wise.

Curry was a joke and only the creation of the local media and fan base, Big Ben thought to highly of himself that he could be effective outside of the system he found comfort in with the Pistons. Big Ben forgot what his role was or in other words forgot he was a role player.

There's been a bunch of top payed players that didn't see an All Star game until late in their careers, it seem that at the age of 26 you have already capped J Smoove ceiling and potential of becoming an All Star. Z-Bo is how many years in and he just been in 2 All Star games, Antawn Jamison been in the league forever one time Max player and only been an All Star twice. Come on Elton Brand had 2 Max Deals and never made an All Star game. All I'm saying is that Max Deals and All Star Games don't always go hand in hand. It's not about what you're peers may be thinking it about fans voting, what coaches are thinking, and yes even Stern gets his say in all of it.

You're helping make my point by comparing JS to MAX $$ players that are also 2 time All Stars.
Elton Brand = All Star in 2002 & 2006 (his 3rd & 7th yr). Smiths best season = Elton Brands worst of first 9. Brand averaged 20/10 over his first 9 years. ROY. 7th in MVP voting. He was a MAX player.
Jamison was an All Star by yr 7. Yeah Randolph was selected late but had 5 20/10 seasons prior.

All I'm trying to say is consideration of intangibles is something more heavily relied upon when the easily apparent characteristics weakly carry the decision. Smiths apparent characteristics (stats) just don't measure up to the players at the elevated pay grade. It isn't personal, just the facts. I guess my standard for MAX pay begins with MAX performance.

Capping J Smoove's ceiling? Wise it's only been 9 years already. (he will be 28 in Dec) But, in all fairness large contracts have for some guys resulted in renewed motivation to live up to the expectations that accompany the money.

True, Curry wasn't all that, but many complemented him for being a strong leader. I couldn't resist the Ben Wallace reference.
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Yes Talent

Post  Oracle on Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:18 pm

WISEFAN wrote:
deusXango wrote:At the time of his firing in New Jersey, what was the talent base like? What was the veteran makeup of the Nets at the time of Lil' Larry's infamous start that got his ass fired? I'm so sick of hearing the excuses about our youth being the reason he can't function at a high level, make sound decisions, or set a rightous rotation, I don't know what to do! Lil' Larry took the type talent we've talked about and stunk up the Meadowlands with it....he's a glorified waterboy, not a top flight professional basketball coach, and we all know it. I'm back to Nate McMillan or Bill Laimbeer as head coach!

DX I want you to go back and look at the Nets roster from 2006 up until the time he was fired. I hope this isn't the kind of talent we're all hoping for. I'm not debating the level of coach both you and Oracle are saying LF is, or that we wouldn't have a slightly better record with a different coach. While LF is an obvious issue so is the make up of this team. I just think the LF level of blaming is over-kill when there are 80 other things wrong with this team.

Two things! Look at the Nets lineup for 2007-2008, with JKidd, Krystic, Maglorie, Jefferson, Devin Harris, Vince Carter, Jason Collins & more, and Frank was only to go 34-48 in the East? What are you talking about?

The last thing is this. A lot of the problems you see aren't player problems, they're coaching problems, you just don't seem to recognize them, and then blame players!

Take Stuckey(but almost anyone else will do), even the dumb ass media continue to blame him for a poor season. You can blame him for giving up, and I do, but I also see why he gets frustrated!

Stuckey went through a very productive period when he first went to the 2nd team. That experiment worked well for a lot of players. However, once it really became successful, Frank went away from what was working and tried something different.

There's no problem with trying something different, but ONLY if you're experimenting! Once the experiments are over, you're supposed to go back to what worked... Frank never does!

Then people blame the players, but the players are being put into situations where they're most likely to fail, and when they do they sour on the coach and everything else.

That allows guys like Monroe, who is getting the "Stuckey" love treatment for now, to jump out and complain. however, once he stops getting a pass on everything, he'll sour just like Stuckey!
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The Key

Post  Oracle on Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:23 pm

"Gifted with a rare combination of size and athleticism to be a premier shot-blocker and intimidating defensive presence" - Langolis

You would think it's about Drummond, but it's not!

Communication the Key
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Back room stuff

Post  Oracle on Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:50 pm

lemonpen wrote:
Oracle wrote:I almost didn't read this piece because it sounded like a fluff piece, and it was, but there were a few nuggest of info in there. One of them that surprised me was this,

"He doesn't get involved in personnel matters but, unsolicited, he went to the front office during the college basketball season and asked the Pistons to take a long hard look at Andre Drummond." - Monroe

Greg Monroe keeps optimism high for Pistons

Do you think Joe will invite Greg's opinion. Either on players or coaches future.

I wouldn't think so, and if Joe did, I don't believe it would influence anything unless Joe was going that way already.
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