Re: FORUM

[frankied]

just one last word on the dumars interviews that have happened the last couple of days...
he has, for the very first time, stated that the team is rebuilding. he has never, ever said that he was rebuilding and i don't think he believed that he was rebuilding. he has been trying to, as he stated, retool on the fly, without going through a rebuilding process.
now, because his "retooling" has been such an absolute disaster, he is at the point where he has to admit that he is rebuilding.
the good thing is that he at least acknowledges that he is now rebuilding.
the bad thing is that the last 4 years have put the franchise in such a bad position financially, that the rebuilding process will be that much more difficult.
what rebuilding franchise wants a 40 million dollar albatross like CV?
how does a 28 year old, 55 million dollar combo guard best suited to be a 6th man help a rebuilding team?
having 5 million dollars a year sit on your salary cap burden, for a player who plays for a competitor does not help rebuilding.
and unfortunately, signing tay, with the apparent hope of keeping him around - and not trading him - will do nothing to help the development of players who play his same position, while you are supposedly rebuilding.
what a mess. it may take another 4 years to get to the point where the team is competitive again.

[Flip]

Saw this and still can't stop laughing.

[FlyDog]

For a team in financial turmoil and lockdown, funny to hear that the new plane was purchased before last season. Well.............maybe not funny, but interesting and contradictory.

[lemonpen]

Answer the following question and you will know the single most important ingredient to constructing a Ship-shape squad.


Name a common characteristic shared amoung 31 of the last 32 championship teams.

THE ANSWER IS:
With the exception of the 04 Pistons, each team was led by a top 50 all time player. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah I know, Nowitski, Duncan, and Garnett haven't formally be anoited. But is there much doubt. Even if those 3 are "arguably" top 50 it still makes them ultra rare.

Dirk, Kobe, Garnett, Shaq, Duncan, Robinson, Jordan, Hakeem, Zeke, Magic, Bird, Moses.

Seems to me you gotta tank a lot of seasons before finding a diamond.

[merc]

Some of our out-of-towners might like the new NBA AP
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[FlyDog]

Superstars are necessary, no doubt. But tanking several seasons isn't. Dirk, Magic, Shaq, Garnett, Moses, Kobe, Bird..................none of the teams they won Championships with tanked anything.

[WTF]

Many folks just won't acknowledge the fact that our 2004 Championship was a stroke of luck and not genius and I think the minute everyone grasp on to that reality they'll see that problem is Joe Dumars. It's takes a little of everything to become a championship team, trades, lottery picks, coaching, leadership, strong fan support and so on but if you put all of the decision making in the hands of a moron then you'll end up with what we have currently as a team.

I have never seen a GM that make 1 good move then fuck it up with 2 bad moves, that's Joe. While the No Brainer moves of drafting Monroe and Knight were 2 good moves and no doubt that a third lotto pick should result in another good move, Joe will somehow manage to follow up with at least 6 dumb moves. Example: Extending Tay, not keeping Rip and amnestying BG, wasting draft picks (do you really think Singler will become a Pistons), over paying for JJ.

[frankied]

Many folks just won't acknowledge the fact that our 2004 Championship was a stroke of luck and not genius and I think the minute everyone grasp on to that reality they'll see that problem is Joe Dumars. It's takes a little of everything to become a championship team, trades, lottery picks, coaching, leadership, strong fan support and so on but if you put all of the decision making in the hands of a moron then you'll end up with what we have currently as a team.

I have never seen a GM that make 1 good move then fuck it up with 2 bad moves, that's Joe. While the No Brainer moves of drafting Monroe and Knight were 2 good moves and no doubt that a third lotto pick should result in another good move, Joe will somehow manage to follow up with at least 6 dumb moves. Example: Extending Tay, not keeping Rip and amnestying BG, wasting draft picks (do you really think Singler will become a Pistons), over paying for JJ.

as much as i think joe d has f-cked up, no one can ever take his championship - as a GM - away from him.
every team that wins a title has a bit of luck.
opponents have key injuries - detroit beat LA when byron scott missed the finals and magic missed a game also - shyte happens on the way to a title.
the key is that a team is prepared to take advantage of opportunities and that is what happened with detroit in 04. they could have very easily lost to either NJ or indiana in the playoffs and if that had happened, either of those teams could have taken advantage of LA's implosion.
also, the fact that detroit had such a long run of success proves that it was not a fluke. joe built a team that was able to take advantage of an opening, topping it off by gambling on a guy who lots of folks said stay away from: sheed.
and the idea that moves like the grant hill trade and the rip trade were just luck is just nonsense. yea, sometimes you end up better off because things happen that you did not initially anticipate - no one in their right mind had any idea how good ben wallace would become, if they had, orlando would have kept him - but that is just the way it is. you put yourself - your team - in position to take advantage of fortuitous circumstances
so, yea, joe has f-cked up royally recently, but he has to be given credit for building a team that lasted almost a decade. it was a great, great team that rekindled my passion for pistons' BB. watching chucky and chauncey fire up late game 3 pointers, seeing the team play with the kind of guts it had back then...well, it was something i will remember always. some of the best sports memories i've had. i was living here in PDX and seattle and would have to run around and talk bars into tuning in the games, but it was worth it.
what is so sad now is that his teams bear so little resemblance to those post grant hill teams, but that is just the way it is.
as much as he deserves the blame for what has happened since - and i heap all of it on his recent dumba@@ moves - he deserves the credit for the success his teams enjoyed.
as a fan, i would never think of trying to minimize his success by claiming that it was the result of luck.
luck is winning the lottery and getting tim duncan. luck is portland picking sam bowie and leaving jordan for chicago. luck is detroit taking darko so that d-wade falls to miami. none of that stuff happened for joe.
no, he did it the old fashioned way: he earned it with hard work, smart moves and a bit of good timing, as far as opponents are concerned.

[Rett]

Joe Is A Screw Up Just Face It!

Post WISEFAN Today at 9:49 pm

"Many folks just won't acknowledge the fact that our 2004 Championship was a stroke of luck and not genius and I think the minute everyone grasp on to that reality they'll see that problem is Joe Dumars. It's takes a little of everything to become a championship team, trades, lottery picks, coaching, leadership, strong fan support and so on but if you put all of the decision making in the hands of a moron then you'll end up with what we have currently as a team."


Wise..
U just contradict yourself.... every which way but loose.!!

U state that the 2004 Championship was a "stroke of luck"......and then go on to say:
"It's takes a little of everything to become a championship team, trades, lottery picks, coaching, leadership, strong fan support and so on......"


Good Lord Child.....which way is it?
Oh, nevermind!







Sheesh!!

[Rett]

as a fan, i would never think of trying to minimize his success by claiming that it was the result of luck.
luck is winning the lottery and getting tim duncan. luck is portland picking sam bowie and leaving jordan for chicago. luck is detroit taking darko so that d-wade falls to miami. none of that stuff happened for joe.
no, he did it the old fashioned way: he earned it with hard work, smart moves and a bit of good timing, as far as opponents are concerned.


frankied

[deusXango]

Who would you rather have Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva or Chauncey Billips and Aaron Afflalo?

[merc]

Pistons called up Walker D. Rusell Jr. from the D-League... did anyone know he was even there?

[deusXango]

Who's better, the retired Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess or the active Jason Maxiell and Charlie Villanueva?

[deusXango]

Pistons called up Walker D. Rusell Jr. from the D-League... did anyone know he was even there?

Yeah Merc, I think he was leading the league in assists......or not.

[Oracle]

Who's better, the retired Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess or the active Jason Maxiell and Charlie Villanueva?

LOL, it pains me to answer that question, but the sad truth is that the long tooths would out play the youngsters every day of the week!

Better defense for sure, and the offensive output would as good, but more consistent.

[Oracle]

Who would you rather have Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva or Chauncey Billips and Aaron Afflalo?

That probably should have been CB and Amir.

However, ANY combo that has CV in it is an automatic loser with me! BG may not be an automatic loser, but he's awfully close!

[merc]

Who's better, the retired Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess or the active Jason Maxiell and Charlie Villanueva?

Put me down for option #1 in... Sheed & Dice would be better in a wheelchair

[deusXango]

Pinocchio has a nose, and Joe has an ass, they both grow when they tell a lie.

[merc]

Christian Laettner is a coach for our D-League team.

[Oracle]

as a fan, i would never think of trying to minimize his success by claiming that it was the result of luck.
luck is winning the lottery and getting tim duncan. luck is portland picking sam bowie and leaving jordan for chicago. luck is detroit taking darko so that d-wade falls to miami. none of that stuff happened for joe.
no, he did it the old fashioned way: he earned it with hard work, smart moves and a bit of good timing, as far as opponents are concerned.


frankied

You always give the guy in charge credit, and blame, because that knife cuts both ways!

Every move to get that 'ship, and the 6 ECF apperances had to be approved by Joe.

However, he also has to take the blame for all the crap over the last few years too.

I really question his leadership during the team mutiny! That was really bad, and I though Joe showed no leadership during some very troubled times.

[Oracle]

Christian Laettner is a coach for our D-League team.

Rutt Row, we're really screwed!

[merc]

as a fan, i would never think of trying to minimize his success by claiming that it was the result of luck.
luck is winning the lottery and getting tim duncan. luck is portland picking sam bowie and leaving jordan for chicago. luck is detroit taking darko so that d-wade falls to miami. none of that stuff happened for joe.
no, he did it the old fashioned way: he earned it with hard work, smart moves and a bit of good timing, as far as opponents are concerned.


frankied

You always give the guy in charge credit, and blame, because that knife cuts both ways!

Every move to get that 'ship, and the 6 ECF apperances had to be approved by Joe.

However, he also has to take the blame for all the crap over the last few years too.

I really question his leadership during the team mutiny! That was really bad, and I though Joe showed no leadership during some very troubled times.

[WTF]

How much credit do you give a GM that never intended on winning a championship in the first place and to have it accidentally fall into his lap? Of Joe's own admission he didn't realize he had a team capable of winning it all.

@frankied I never said fluke because that team was very much capable of winning as it did. When I speak of luck it is in how the team was assembled (see above comment) Joe's initial agenda was simply putting an entertaining team on the floor and reducing cost and players salaries and every move he made was directed at that purpose. Mission accomplished and give him all the credit in the world for that.

@Rett see the above comment to frankied. There's no contradiction but perhaps I should have said Joe was lucky in putting the team together and not the team was lucky in winning a title. But when you accidentally stumble upon something its luck not genius. Why do you think 2004 stands out from all the other title teams? Unique perhaps, not of the norm.

@Oracle Joe is like the dumb parent of a smart child that takes bows and say I'm proud when they couldn't even assist with the childs homework. But thank goodness there were great tutors in Rick, Larry and Flip to carry on where the Joe couldn't succeed, really giving credit to Joe for trading for Sheed when Larry pushed for it?

Joe had a golden opportunity that most competent GM would have killed for and Joe couldn't cash in on it. Count all ECF you want to but only one resulted in a Championship. Ask yourself this questions how many other GM's would have cashed in where Joe fail giving the same team? Either you appluad Joe for sitting on his hands during that time or you call it it like it really was.

[frankied]

How much credit do you give a GM that never intended on winning a championship in the first place and to have it accidentally fall into his lap? Of Joe's own admission he didn't realize he had a team capable of winning it all.

@frankied I never said fluke because that team was very much capable of winning as it did. When I speak of luck it is in how the team was assembled (see above comment) Joe's initial agenda was simply putting an entertaining team on the floor and reducing cost and players salaries and every move he made was directed at that purpose. Mission accomplished and give him all the credit in the world for that.

@Rett see the above comment to frankied. There's no contradiction but perhaps I should have said Joe was lucky in putting the team together and not the team was lucky in winning a title. But when you accidentally stumble upon something its luck not genius. Why do you think 2004 stands out from all the other title teams? Unique perhaps, not of the norm.

sorry, wise, but that makes no sense. joe put the team together. they won a title. it doesn't matter what his intention was, when constructing the team. all that matters is that his team won a title.
if i go out one night, just thinking i'm going to have a beer, and i meet someone who happens to be the love of my life and i eventually marry that person and live happily ever after, it matters not what i initially intended to do that night.
all that matters is that i met the love of my life and married her.
that is essentially what may have happened with joe, if he did have the intention you indicate.
like water, athletic teams find their own level. for the pistons, that year, their level was a title, a championship and it was not luck. it was simply the level at which they could achieve that year.
and joe deserves credit for it.
i dog joe out all of the time. i think he's been a disaster for the team recently. but i cannot imagine trying to take away that kind of achievement and assign it to dumb luck.
he earned that ring in 2004, even if he stood on the shoulders of others such as john hammond and will robinson.

[Grizz]

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Vincent Goodwill: Fans keep harping on the signings of Charlie Villanueva and Ben Gordon two summers ago. Well, that was the last big move Dumars made, and it was 21 months ago.


Vincent Goodwill: Pistons GM Joe Dumars plans to finish what he started

Vincent Goodwill: In the NBA, contending is a matter of dollars and sense.


Vincent Goodwill: It doesn't take long to see which teams fall on what side of things. Either a team is competing to win a title or it's trying to rebuild. There's very little, if any, middle ground.

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