The Rebuild

[Murph]

After watching last nights game and digesting what I saw, a couple of thoughts hit me that I hope are true. #1. was the growth shown by our rookie who's not played a dozen NBA games, and the apparent mental toughness displayed by Monroe as he went about his job. Two for two out of our last couple mid-lottery draft picks. No matter how well Monroe and Knight play this team is lottery bound and contending for the top pick. #2. is if three is a charm and Joe has convinced Mr. Gores to let this season play out, with the roster as is, we've got an excellent shot at Drummond or Davis. With that three headed monster of youngsters in the fold, all the moves we've been talking about making this year, Joe has also convinced Mr. Gores that it would be prudent to wait until next year to make. Our rebuild would become a serious reality, and a return to contention ala OKC.

That would mean this is a year of auditioning for roster spots for everyone but Monroe and Knight. It's alright with me. When you've got a collection of basketball clowns like our roster is made of, you don't have to tell them to tank the season, sucking comes naturally.

DX...good post. Dumars just might wiggle out of this one yet. If he can convince Gores to stay the course and tank the season, Joe might just be able to draft Drummond or Davis, which would pretty much complete the rebuilding process.

Then with a starting line-up of Stuckey, Knight, JJ, Drummond or Davis, and Monroe, the Pistons could mature and improve every year...while all the bad contracts (Gordon, CV, Hamilton, Maxiell, Prince and Bynum) eventually expire, and are replaced with QUALITY free agents.

I can just make out a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

[Fennis Dembo]

The Real Notes and Quotes from the Milwaukee game not the stuff we get from the beat writers - by Biff Burns

Frank: Somebody, anybody, just gag me with a spoon! I’m dying here.

Charlie V: Is this Kansas City, Kansas or Kansas City, Missouri?
Frank: This is Milwaukee, Wisconsin, you maroon! You used to play here three years ago.
Charlie V: That’s a long time ago.
Frank: Yes, in dog years it's twenty-one.
Charlie V: I’m a Piston for life.
Frank: Don’t get carried away. There is this little thing called the amnesty clause. It was made for guys like you. New Jersey is really lovely this time of year. I bet you would really like it there.

Austin Daye and Rodney Stuckey after showing up late for the twelfth time this season, “We don’t feel tardy.”

Biff Burns: On the business front the Hostess Company has filed for bankruptcy.
Tom Gores: This whole food, organic nonsense is killing America. This healthy diet crap is turning my team into a bunch of tofu munching wimps that keep turning the ball over. I’ll make real men out of them. I will make sure all the new contracts will make it mandatory for the players to have a Twinkie, and Ding Dong, and a 120 proof vodka break at halftime. To your health, Cheers, Salud, Skål! Besides Daye and Prince need some meat on their bones. They are about two missed meals shy of being certified anorexic.”

Biff Burns: A big center would really help the team.
Lawrence Frank: And if RuPaul had a whatchamacallit he’d be Miss America.

[deusXango]

Does anyone have an opinion on how successful a 2 combo guard starting line-up would be? Neither Stuckey nor Knight are pure PGs, by any stretch of the imagination. Both are score first PGs. However, both have played PG for the last several years, and both are decent, if not great, passers. Furthermore, offensively they compliment each other. While Stuckey can break-down the defense and score on drives, Knight has a great out-side shot (like Billups).

On the other end of the court, both are decent defenders, and Stuckey is big enough to guard most opposing 2s.

And to the Stuckey bashers...it should be noted that our only 2 wins of the season came with Stuckey playing the point.

IMO, a starting backcourt of Stuckey and Knight is our best option.

Yo' Murph, how 'ya doing? Here's my opinion on the level of success our 2 "combo guard" starting line-up can be. First off Lil' Larry is not the coach for those two young men; I'm not going into why because this is about Stuckey and Knight, and they can be quite a pair. I've been Stuckey's biggest critic as a PG and for the favoritism shown him by Dumars, but I've yet to see what he can bring to the table as a SG with a complimentary backcourt mate. Stuckey the slasher, and Knight the long range bomber. Two complimentary basketball players, like Isiah and Joe. There are a couple of things they've got to learn; aggressive play is not just for the individual but for the team as well. They've got to move the ball to teamates quickly and not be selfish. Stuckey's got to work on finishing, and Knight has to learn to hold on to the ball and not turn it over. (They really need Larry Brown.)

They both are basically rookies; two of the last three years Knight has spent playing high school basketball, and for the last three years Stuckey has spent playing out of position for some non-teaching coaches. This is only their first year together, but I don't think Frank can teach them the fine points of the NBA backcourt, so they can only work on chemistry. Stuckey and Knight solve a big team problem. A sound starting backcourt. I personally am turned off by the term "combo guard", just let them be the best basketball players they can be!

[frankied]

"... minus the TO though and of course I would like to see more assist. This was a performance that LB would have loved....
The other thing is that Frank has to continue giving both of them the same amount of PT he gave them last night and he also need to find away to keep Knight and Stuckey on the floor together and JJ has to get better defensively so that he can stay on the floor 30 pluse minutes. JJ has been a no show the last 9 games so far since having that great opening game.
... the sky can be the limit for him if Joe puts a solid defensive 7 footer next to him and move him to PF. Would like to see him hanging out with Akeem over the summer."

LB would have been all over knight because of the turnovers. he may have sat him down.
that is the one problem with knight's game and one that was known about even back to his college days. the good thing is that most of the turnovers happen as a result of him being aggressive. it is not like gordon's turnovers, which are a matter of sloppy ballhandling and horrible decisions. funny, it seems like knight gets prone to dumb turnovers when he plays with gordon. almost like it rubs off on him. zeke had a fairly high turnover rate also, but it also happened because of his risk-taking and aggression.
it is also funny cause this game frank did not take monroe out of the game, right at what seemed to be a pre-determined time every game - at the end of the 3rd quarter. when he did it against chicago, it ruined the team's offense and momentum and it took monroe out of his game also. he only took one more shot and i don't think he scored a point after frank took him out in the chicago game. this game, he kept him in and let monroe keep rolling. it helped monroe and it helped the team stay in the game. he played 40 minutes, but he's a kid and he is certainly capable of playing heavy minutes at this stage of his career. in fact, it would be the best thing in the world for him because of the experience and also because it gives him the practice of playing the kind of heavy minutes he'll ultimately play when the team starts playing playoff games.
i also hope joe is looking at bringing in another big guy to play next to him. unfortunately, the more you look at what he's doing, the more i tend to think that he is moving towards building a team with hybrid forwards, rather than a team that has two real bigs at the PF and C spots. i think he believes he has his center. i think his model has been the orlando team. it is what he actually stated a few years ago - in the off-season after orlando went to the finals, in an interview with keith l on pistons.com - and every move he's made seems to confirm that he is going in that direction. i hope i am wrong, because monroe will never reach his full potential - and the team will suffer - if he has to bang with the biggest boys every night, but it does look like joe is doing exactly that.
JJ's problem is pretty simple. he is getting into foul trouble early every game and it is taking him out of games early and it is also curbing his aggression because he is always in foul trouble. imho, it would really help him if he played the SF spot and didn't have to bang with guys who typically overpower him, physically. but, as i said, i think it is joe's plan to leave him at the 4 and let him "grow" into the PF role. just like he figures he has his center in monroe, imho, he believes he has his PF in JJ.

[WTF]

Does anyone have an opinion on how successful a 2 combo guard starting line-up would be? Neither Stuckey nor Knight are pure PGs, by any stretch of the imagination. Both are score first PGs. However, both have played PG for the last several years, and both are decent, if not great, passers. Furthermore, offensively they compliment each other. While Stuckey can break-down the defense and score on drives, Knight has a great out-side shot (like Billups).

On the other end of the court, both are decent defenders, and Stuckey is big enough to guard most opposing 2s.

And to the Stuckey bashers...it should be noted that our only 2 wins of the season came with Stuckey playing the point.

IMO, a starting backcourt of Stuckey and Knight is our best option.

I agree they're the best option for starting, it's clear that Gordon is best suited to come off the bench and his PT should be determined by if he's on or off offensively. My wish is that I wish Stuckey would extend his range more and that Knight bring game in some.

DX I think they can be okay with Frank with Dee Brown being on the staff, but LB would be great for both.

[frankied]

i agree pretty much with what DX just posted about stuckey and knight. they could work very well together.
ironically, it is essentially the same type of backcourt they could have had - or actually did have - when they had afflalo here. afflalo has turned into one of the better 3 point shooters in the league, shooting 40, 43 and 42 percent from 3 point range the last 3 seasons.
the more you think about joe's moves, the worse they look...
for instance, if afflalo was still on the roster and detroit had been drafting in the exact same spot, instead of taking another guard, they could have drafted a guy like ...markief morris, a very nice big man.

[frankied]

dee brown?
dee brown was a horrible offensive point guard. he was a great defender because of his athleticism, but he was basically a shooting guard in a point guard's body. plus he had mad hops.
but i doubt he can provide very much coaching for a point guard, as he sure didn't seem to know what to do when he played.

[WTF]

Not so sure frankied that LB would have been overly upset about the turnovers from Knight. LB's biggest complaint with CB was always shot selection and the number of shots CB used to take. No coach is crazy about turnovers but LB wasn't an ass about them that he would sit his PG.

The 7 or 9 shooting performance was classic CB or JKidd performance minus the assist, but Knight effectively ran the offense while scoring within it.

[frankied]

Not so sure frankied that LB would have been overly upset about the turnovers from Knight. LB's biggest complaint with CB was always shot selection and the number of shots CB used to take. No coach is crazy about turnovers but LB wasn't an ass about them that he would sit his PG.

The 7 or 9 shooting performance was classic CB or JKidd performance minus the assist, but Knight effectively ran the offense while scoring within it.

yes, LB was an ass about turnovers. he was brutal on his point guards, over the years, when they tossed the ball away. i can remember many a sarcastic comment from him about his guards not turning the ball over.

[merc]

Gotta go with Stuckey & Knight... let BG hog the ball when GM is resting...
I think part of the reason Knight is turning it over so much is the limited offensive sets... If you believe what's being said about Frank focusing mostly on defense... then the offense has been simple and predictable...fairly easy to jump the passing lanes.... the t.o.s should decrease with more options and familiarity with teammates... Knight has to find out opponents tendencies (after first time around the league)... Frank is gonna have to add some backdoor plays to keep em honest.
What our PGs don't understand is the idea of drive and kick.... once they force teams to quit cheating on the drives things will open up for their own opportunities in the paint (without being doubled)... big difference in being aggressive and playing smartly aggressive.

[WTF]

Not so sure frankied that LB would have been overly upset about the turnovers from Knight. LB's biggest complaint with CB was always shot selection and the number of shots CB used to take. No coach is crazy about turnovers but LB wasn't an ass about them that he would sit his PG.

The 7 or 9 shooting performance was classic CB or JKidd performance minus the assist, but Knight effectively ran the offense while scoring within it.

yes, LB was an ass about turnovers. he was brutal on his point guards, over the years, when they tossed the ball away. i can remember many a sarcastic comment from him about his guards not turning the ball over.

Like I said frankied all coaches prefer not having any turnovers, but the thing he often got on CB about was his shot selection and volume. I think our 2004 team average less than 10 turnovers a game they were pretty good with taking care of the ball even under Flip and Rick. LB was a smart ass about everything he never gave his players credit anyway heck he didn't give them credit for winning the title

[Flip]

Gotta go with Stuckey & Knight... let BG hog the ball when GM is resting...
I think part of the reason Knight is turning it over so much is the limited offensive sets... If you believe what's being said about Frank focusing mostly on defense... then the offense has been simple and predictable...fairly easy to jump the passing lanes.... the t.o.s should decrease with more options and familiarity with teammates... Knight has to find out opponents tendencies (after first time around the league)... Frank is gonna have to add some backdoor plays to keep em honest.
What our PGs don't understand is the idea of drive and kick.... once they force teams to quit cheating on the drives things will open up for their own opportunities in the paint (without being doubled)... big difference in being aggressive and playing smartly aggressive.

I'm hoping to see Knight/Stuckey starting tonight too. idk how a coach could watch last nights game, and continue to think Knight/Gordon is the best combo. Besides, Gordon was at his best in CHI coming off the bench. Trying to put players in bigger roles that they are good for is usually a recipe for trouble. Its just logical, seeing that Knight/Stuckey appear to have the best chemistry among the 3, to start them and play them the most min togeter, and Gordon is best off the bench.

I believe Knight/Gordon starting backcourt is now 0-6. Not sure what they are waiting for to make a change.

[merc]

Gotta go with Stuckey & Knight... let BG hog the ball when GM is resting...
I think part of the reason Knight is turning it over so much is the limited offensive sets... If you believe what's being said about Frank focusing mostly on defense... then the offense has been simple and predictable...fairly easy to jump the passing lanes.... the t.o.s should decrease with more options and familiarity with teammates... Knight has to find out opponents tendencies (after first time around the league)... Frank is gonna have to add some backdoor plays to keep em honest.
What our PGs don't understand is the idea of drive and kick.... once they force teams to quit cheating on the drives things will open up for their own opportunities in the paint (without being doubled)... big difference in being aggressive and playing smartly aggressive.

I'm hoping to see Knight/Stuckey starting tonight too. idk how a coach could watch last nights game, and continue to think Knight/Gordon is the best combo. Besides, Gordon was at his best in CHI coming off the bench. Trying to put players in bigger roles that they are good for is usually a recipe for trouble. Its just logical, seeing that Knight/Stuckey appear to have the best chemistry among the 3, to start them and play them the most min togeter, and Gordon is best off the bench.

I believe Knight/Gordon starting backcourt is now 0-6. Not sure what they are waiting for to make a change.

Right... the only reason I could think for starting BG is to keep the minutes up for trade value... if that's the plan it's failing miserably

[FireDumars]

ahahahahaha best is to laugh through this entire scam of a so called team. it is not worth wasting nerves, growing new grey hairs. until the clown Dumars is fired, along with his crew of Frank, all players with the exception of Monroe, Knight and possibly JJ, Detroit and the Palace will continue to be the laughing stock of the NBA.

btw, that Tom Gorres sure did bring in new attitude and made changes like he promised.

now you have the Palace filled with teenage, zit-faced kids attending the Palace for halftime-pregame concerts, instead of hardcore fans watching quality basketball....but hey....Gores is after MONEY after-all and doesnt care about team quality.

[WTF]

After watching last nights game and digesting what I saw, a couple of thoughts hit me that I hope are true. #1. was the growth shown by our rookie who's not played a dozen NBA games, and the apparent mental toughness displayed by Monroe as he went about his job (despite growing rumblings of his game shortcomings based on his "lack" of athtetcism). Two for two out of our last couple mid-lottery draft picks. No matter how well Monroe and Knight play this team is lottery bound and contending for the top pick. #2. is if three is a charm and Joe has convinced Mr. Gores to let this season play out, with the roster as is, we've got an excellent shot at Drummond or Davis. With that three headed monster of youngsters in the fold, all the moves we've been talking about making this year, Joe has also convinced Mr. Gores that it would be prudent to wait until next year to make. Our rebuild would become a serious reality, and a return to contention ala OKC.

That would mean this is a year of auditioning for roster spots for everyone but Monroe and Knight. It's alright with me. When you've got a collection of basketball clowns like our roster is made of, you don't have to tell them to tank the season, sucking comes naturally.

DX I had to think on this one before I commented on it and I just don't see Jos coming to this conclusion on his own though this may be the likely course of the team. Call it Accidental Intellegence that he'll likely find himself lucky to have things play out this way should he continue to sit on his hands the entire season without being canned.

If Knight, Monroe and I will include Stuckey are consider the cornerstone adding a top three pick over the summer would be a stroke of luck. How much of a empty Palace and losing Gores can take is the question

[merc]

Tonight's goal... Knight gets 8 assists... shoots only when it's time.
And another L
Next year we need to start climbing out of lotto hell.
I'll be damn it's beer 30

[frankied]

links?

[merc]

I remember when Kelser was a runny nose kid at our HS (Henry Ford)... he was skinnier than Daye.. but man he was cat quick... but couldn't shoot worth a lick (til his senior year).
Did he just say the team meeting had gr8 results in Milwaukee?... So this must be the best we should expect... being within 10 points of the Bucks?

[frankied]

stuckey playing well and providing stability again.
gordon sucks.
how he ever suckered joe d into paying him as much money as he did is incredible.
what a waste.
they've smartly ran a lot of their half court offense through monroe. he is their best facilitator, and they will get even better when he is the main guy handling the offense, night in and night out.
btw, mullins could have been had for a second round draft pick.
was joe interested? who knows, but based on his track record, probably not.

[Grizz]

[Only admins are allowed to see this link]

[Grizz]

The Pistons really look like a real team out there today ... Frank is doing something right .. Observation that JJ played great and the Pistons as well, because the Bobcats dont have 2 good bigs ..

[merc]

Crickets...

[Grizz]

Crickets...

I guess we are haters and venters so nothing much bad to vent about in this big win... and beating the Bobcats doesnt get anyone excited on the other side either ..

[Flip]

Over a bad team, but I'll take a 20 pt win anyway we can.

Knight with his first career dbl-dbl, 13 pts, 10 rebs, to go with 4 assists and 0 TO's! on 5-11 FG

With his rebounding ability, once he gets more scorers around him to finish his assists, he's going to be a triple-double threat every night.

Great to see him come back with no turnovers after 5 last night. You'll take 4:0 Ast/TO ratio from your PG every night. Especially when your Center gets you 5 with 1 TO.

Speaking of Monroe, follows up his career night with 19 pts, 9 rebs, 5 asts, 1 blk, 1 stl, and only 1 TO, and was a major presence inside and facilitator on offense.

The future looks bright.

[Flip]

Kemba looked great scoring the ball, but I think we saw why Knight was the higher ranked prospect and why we took him 8th over Kemba.

Walker did what he does - score, but didn't do much else. Only 2 rebs and 2 asts, and didn't appear to run any sort of team offense at all as the PG.

I thought Knight played his best game tonight. Our offense ran smooth, they played inside-out through Monroe, and Knight looked like the better "true" PG tonight. And did all the little things needed to win as well.

I like Kemba, but I'm so glad we took Knight instead, as Walker might has a little too much "will bynum" in his game for my liking as a starting PG.

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