DUMP DRUMMONDS AZZ NOW!

[Phil-Good]

"I'm sure you'll have a take on the articles on the side about Drummond's 2020 player option coming up, LOL!!!"


Get on the telephone with Indiana right now. Give me Turner, and that Little PG that kicked the Pistons azz. Let me go to hoopshype.com and find this kids name real fast:
Aaron Holiday!!!

Yes...yes...

Toss in A second round pick and we in BUSINESS!!!

I would sleep in Central Park, in New York, in February before I let Drummonds hold me up for any more max money! F.u.c.k. THAT! Drummonds is A poor-mans hybrid between Dwight Howard without the shot blocking ability and defensive ability, mixed with DeAndre Jordan.

Bail on this guy right now baby!!

[Oracle]

I would like it if the Pistons picked up Collison.

I've always liked him and thought he should have been a Piston in the past, but we always went in a different direction.

He is Ish Smith small, but unlike Ish, he can hit 3's at an elite clip, as good or better than Kennard.

Good luck and goodbye Glenn! I had high hopes of it working out, but he really stunk up the joint from 3 point land.

[Oracle]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on some of this stuff.

You wouldn't be so critical if you didn't care, and everyone has their own way of expressing their feelings about these things.

Having said that, I must confess that some of the personal things you say about players seems a bit out of bounds, but as I said, you do you and that's ultimately your call.

I'm sure you'll have a take on the articles on the side about Drummond's 2020 player option coming up, LOL!!!

[cool breeze]

This was a good response to my post Oracle.

I guess that being a former player at two different levels and also being a high school coach might cause me to not understand what is actually going on in games. It made no difference in the outcome of that Heat-Piston game when Whiteside took the Pistons out of the playoff picture because AD didn't bother to box him out. Fundaments do count and I used to teach the fundaments. Ugh, we weren't talking about that, so try staying on the subject. However, one thing I've learned is that some people have 10 years of experience, and other people have ONE YEARS experience 10 times!

Your argument as to why the Pistons lost ( Blake's injury) does not hold up in real time.(And of course regular season games are identical to playoff games. I suppose we would have swept the Raptors in the playoffs too using your flawed logic. Did you also learn that from your extensive experience.)The Pistons had no chance against the Bucks in regular season games with Griffin fully healthy. It was always like the boys playing the men. Blake is a tough player who is heads and tails better than anyone else on this Piston team. I do not disagree with that. However, the Pistons throughout the season lost to superior teams and average teams with Blake. he is just playing with dysfunctional inferior players. Regardless of how good Blake played as a healthy player, it wasn't good enough for the Pistons to do much more than get into the playoffs. The rest of the team is make up of average to below average players. So they had no chance at all from the beginning of last season and before the trade was made for Griffin. yet this owner decided to make that horrible trade for Blake anyway. He over estimated the effect Blake might have on his Son, Andre Drummond. Mr. Gores believes that AD might be the best center in basketball but just needs to work out the bad habits. The Pistons have only 1 top tier player and continue to ignore the draft as a place where they could get a real star who is young.Fans feel more confident of the future if they have a young star. Remember Zeke as a rookie where he took charge of the leadership role.  By the way, Golden State managed to make the finals exciting winning their conference championship without perhaps the best overall player in the entire NBA. Other key players were hurt as well but they kept on winning. No guts - no glory. Wow, so you're comparing the Warriors to the Pistons? They still had Curry, Draymond and Thompson. Wow, talk about squirming when you're losing badly...

So you believe that the Pistons lost to the Bucks because their wings were too small. Why didn't the head coach and front office know this two years ago and last summer?(Perhaps they would have IF they had been here 2 years ago. You asked if I watched the games, I have to ask where the hell you've been for the last 6 years. They've been here one year for your information and handicapped by SVG's roster and poor financial management. Too bad that escaped your eagle eye.) You also say Luke is too small and because of that he was always worried about being able to get his shot off. How does Curry get his shots off then?(Again, do you even watch the playoffs? Curry can get his shot!!! He moves without the ball like Kennard dreams of in his sleep, and he can hit shots falling down and from the parking lot. Your credibility is draining from your body as we speak, you better plug the drain before it's all gone. ) He is not very big. I think the Pistons brain trust thought they needed to pin the embarrassing ass kicking their team experienced and then told the media that it was because their wings were too small. They had Robinson who is bigger but didn't play him much in favor of smaller guys than him. This was a coaches decision and for some reason fans are giving Casey a big brake that they have never given any other coach. Is that because the media has brainwashed some fans? Who knows but I do know that winners come in all sizes. What is in your heart? How much have you worked for success? Are you smart enough from the get go to want to correct your flaws? How much raw talent do you possess? Why did Casey believe the opposite of what you observed as the cause for the Pistons downfall? Casey played the small guys together as a unit. What was wrong with the owner not to know that he didn't know the wings were too small? 

This team bungled their future by not positioning themselves strongly in the draft year after year and then when everything blows up which it did at the end of the season and in the playoffs for the Pistons, Then they announce that something must be done on the wings. The year before they had Marcus Morris and decided to move him to Boston where he played well in the playoffs. Morris just happened to be a big wing  player who organized the players only meeting that targeted the dysfunctional players AD and RJ.  The owner and head coach fully believed that Ish Smith and Reggie Jackson were top tier guards too. Also they believed that Galloway and Leuer could defeat the Bucks. You might think I am being funny but how else can anyone explain it? Mr. Gores and company picked or approved all of the players who contributed in the playoffs. Most are still under contract. One if not two of those players who have been part of the hosing history of the Pistons might get new contracts too. The ownership group still are believers in their hand picked group that got thrashed by the Bucks who lost to Toronto. And they thought that Andre Drummond, their proclaimed star player or franchise player would beat the hell out of Lopez and any other player who dared to enter the paint. Meanwhile Billups was saying that the Buchs sure like it when the Pistons do not get out on their shooters. Oracle Chauncey was not referring to the size of the wing players. He was being critical of AD who never got his butt out on any shooter for the entire series. AD said that it was just too much for him because he got too excited and couldn't think straight. Right do you believe that might be true? Do you actually believe that this ownership group has any idea which players they should be going after who do have more length? I have zero faith in the entire organization. They will go out of their way to find players who no other team has any interest in and then will out bit themselves and celebrate.

Oracle you are a stat guy so why in hell do you actually believe that Snell will make any difference at all. Can he create his own shot? Is he an outstanding defender. The bucks had their doubts. Is he a big time scorer? Why do you not look at his stats? Why is Robinson worse than Snell?

What I keep sensing here on this forum is that there are posters who like the status quo. They must enjoy being a fan of a losing team. If a poster points out actual facts that happened in the past, they must be scolded and condemned for being too negative and pointing out the obvious. Nothing I have said can be obvious to this owner who might be  writing that new contract for AD as I write this.

I want a high energy starting center and another player like that to come off the bench and play back up center and power forward. The Pistons have not invested their money wisely. They need to spend more money on the back court. We need a top tier point guard. I suspect that Casey will try Galloway at that position now that he has taken so much criticism for using Langston on the wings. Here is a final thought for you to digest. I believe that the successful teams at any level win because they believe in ball and player movement. Standing around is easy and players who make millions of dollars can preserve their bodies and future income by faking it on both offense and defense. Also, to be successful playing strong player and ball movement type offenses, you need high IQ players to make that work. You need really good screener which we have none of except for ZaZa last season and Johnson when he played for the Pistons. Ball and player movement when playing both sides of the court help players get their shots off without a hand in their face. Luke can play that style. Johnson could play that style. A lot of players cannot function in that type of offense. They need to have the ball in their hands a lot. Ball dominate type players have been the mainstay for this ownership group and the last two head coaches. That is why those coaches were hired because it fits the owners philosophy. Golden State and other successful teams do the opposite and their owners do not believe that Mr. Gores style will ever work. I don't either.

You tired me out just answering a few of the many delusional points you make here.

You remind me of a smarter Lee356/357, at least you do know more basketball than he ever did, but you also have some strange ideas about things that make me wonder about you at times.

Some of your rebuttal to my observations appear juvenile Oracle. What were we discussing the Pistons history and their position in the league now or are we attacking Cool Breeze because we are having a bad day? You appear angry with me. I only care about identifying what is wrong and why the Pistons currently suck and have zero future for a long time to come because the owner lacks vision. You say wait a minute, Casey has only been here for one year. How long has the owner been here? I am referring to the lack of vision by the ownership group. They have approved every trade and every draft pick. They say who stays and who goes. Not the coach or Front office. The owner has been the owner for a long time. Why does he hold little value in who plays in the back court but believes the Pistons should throw all of their money in the front court with two players. One of those players has a low basketball IQ and is overweight. We have one solid player. Your focus is whatever seems to be in the current press releases. Dysfunction has gone on for more than a decade. The Pistons will be in dog fight to make the playoffs. They will not be able to compete in the playoffs.

When I read your posts, I feel the need to bring up the Warriors because you fall into the statue quo group believing that somehow a miracle can occur with this Piston roster. We should all get on the owners ass instead of giving him a pass. If the Pistons had blown up their bad team 10 or 11 years ago and stayed the course for 6 years of losing but gaining top draft picks, we could be celebrating now. But this owner decided to form personal relationships with some of his players and couldn't act logically. He tried like hell to build his team around AD and RJ. So when that didn't work, he made things worst by making that trade for Griffin. Blake's price was too high and included our number one draft pick. If the Pistons had traded the same group of players and their draft pick for Labor James the result would be the same. The Pistons would still lose. If the Pistons had not made the trade and traded Andre Drummond before the season started last year, we would have drafted a really good player that the Clippers got in that deal. The financial picture would have been much better as well. Instead the Pistons made the playoffs and were embarrassed in the playoffs but the owner was happy according to the interviews after the Bucks series. You cannot make something out of nothing. The Pistons are not on a good course. The Pistons have no chance of winning a championship in the next 5 to 8 years. Our goal should be to win the championship not get the 5th seed or the 8th seed. My best guess is that the pistons will miss the playoffs next year if the Nets and Knicks manage to pull off some free agent signings.

Our goal in this situation if we continue to follow the Pistons is to hope the team actually plays like a team and not just a group of AAU players looking to get their stats. Will the coach continue playing his dumb offense that lacks ball and player movement and playing both sides of the court all of the time instead of just in the first 3 minutes of each game? Will the young kids actually get a fair chance to make the rotation? Will the head coach determine everything based on the summer league games when judging the rookies and 2nd year players? He did that with Henry.

But the real change must come from the owner himself and his ownership group who provide suggestions for him as to which direction he will take the Pistons. Other owners seem to be wiser based on the last 10 years of NBA history. Are we making the same mistakes over and over? Will we get a top 3 draft selection within the next 10 years?

Sorry but i do have a habit of writing about my concerns and worries about the future of the Pistons and might not stick to the subject as you are requesting. I have lived through an era where we had a really good owner. What has happened so far with this ownership group should make everyone lack trust in what they might do next. Your anger is directed to me. My anger is not intended to hurt you in any way. You are a fan who makes no decisions like me. We should not be so vicious as posters. If you want it that way, I can respond in kind. I really don't think you understand what I am talking about and you believe the same way about me. Your response relating to Golden State missed my intent completely. You have determined that I am stupid and just don't get it while I am upset with the direction where the Pistons are going. They are going nowhere now and if you are as smart as you seem to claim then you should also know that. Everything is based on how much Blake Griffin can produce and for how long.Why would the Piston owner do such a stupid thing? Now everyone is talking about the window. The window is small as posters and the press say. So how many more mistakes will be make in an effort to do something pithin this window of Blake's usefulness as a player? AD is just a fixture of the organization who gets special treatment and somehow I believe that it wouldn't matter to the owner if AD came into training camp weighing 400 pounds. He loves AD so if we watch the Pistons we will be seeing AD for a long time. It will be AD's decision not the owner if AD stays or goes. Wins and loses are not important to the owner it appears. AD will get his mega contract. Our guards will be mediocre compared to the top tier guards because most of the money will be spent on Blake and Andre our 1-2 punch. Meanwhile we once had Isiah and Joe and Golden State had the Smash Brothers for a long period of time. Fans have more exciting times watching top tier guards than watching two big men dunk. Maybe that is just my personal preference. God bless you if you enjoy watching Andre Drummond play basketball. The owner loves watching AD play basketball and he might like AD's music too so there is nothing we can really do but hope our second round picks pan out. That is the way it is in PistonLand. The Bucks will continue to thrash our team's ass along with a lot of other teams. Embid will humiliate AD next seams and the owner will take him out for a hot fudge sundae and produce one of his new songs. And there will be no new players only meetings damn it all. How could those players do that? The Pistons are a complete joke.

[Oracle]

This was a good response to my post Oracle.

I guess that being a former player at two different levels and also being a high school coach might cause me to not understand what is actually going on in games. It made no difference in the outcome of that Heat-Piston game when Whiteside took the Pistons out of the playoff picture because AD didn't bother to box him out. Fundaments do count and I used to teach the fundaments. Ugh, we weren't talking about that, so try staying on the subject. However, one thing I've learned is that some people have 10 years of experience, and other people have ONE YEARS experience 10 times!

Your argument as to why the Pistons lost ( Blake's injury) does not hold up in real time.(And of course regular season games are identical to playoff games. I suppose we would have swept the Raptors in the playoffs too using your flawed logic. Did you also learn that from your extensive experience.)The Pistons had no chance against the Bucks in regular season games with Griffin fully healthy. It was always like the boys playing the men. Blake is a tough player who is heads and tails better than anyone else on this Piston team. I do not disagree with that. However, the Pistons throughout the season lost to superior teams and average teams with Blake. he is just playing with dysfunctional inferior players. Regardless of how good Blake played as a healthy player, it wasn't good enough for the Pistons to do much more than get into the playoffs. The rest of the team is make up of average to below average players. So they had no chance at all from the beginning of last season and before the trade was made for Griffin. yet this owner decided to make that horrible trade for Blake anyway. He over estimated the effect Blake might have on his Son, Andre Drummond. Mr. Gores believes that AD might be the best center in basketball but just needs to work out the bad habits. The Pistons have only 1 top tier player and continue to ignore the draft as a place where they could get a real star who is young.Fans feel more confident of the future if they have a young star. Remember Zeke as a rookie where he took charge of the leadership role.  By the way, Golden State managed to make the finals exciting winning their conference championship without perhaps the best overall player in the entire NBA. Other key players were hurt as well but they kept on winning. No guts - no glory. Wow, so you're comparing the Warriors to the Pistons? They still had Curry, Draymond and Thompson. Wow, talk about squirming when you're losing badly...

So you believe that the Pistons lost to the Bucks because their wings were too small. Why didn't the head coach and front office know this two years ago and last summer?(Perhaps they would have IF they had been here 2 years ago. You asked if I watched the games, I have to ask where the hell you've been for the last 6 years. They've been here one year for your information and handicapped by SVG's roster and poor financial management. Too bad that escaped your eagle eye.) You also say Luke is too small and because of that he was always worried about being able to get his shot off. How does Curry get his shots off then?(Again, do you even watch the playoffs? Curry can get his shot!!! He moves without the ball like Kennard dreams of in his sleep, and he can hit shots falling down and from the parking lot. Your credibility is draining from your body as we speak, you better plug the drain before it's all gone. ) He is not very big. I think the Pistons brain trust thought they needed to pin the embarrassing ass kicking their team experienced and then told the media that it was because their wings were too small. They had Robinson who is bigger but didn't play him much in favor of smaller guys than him. This was a coaches decision and for some reason fans are giving Casey a big brake that they have never given any other coach. Is that because the media has brainwashed some fans? Who knows but I do know that winners come in all sizes. What is in your heart? How much have you worked for success? Are you smart enough from the get go to want to correct your flaws? How much raw talent do you possess? Why did Casey believe the opposite of what you observed as the cause for the Pistons downfall? Casey played the small guys together as a unit. What was wrong with the owner not to know that he didn't know the wings were too small? 

This team bungled their future by not positioning themselves strongly in the draft year after year and then when everything blows up which it did at the end of the season and in the playoffs for the Pistons, Then they announce that something must be done on the wings. The year before they had Marcus Morris and decided to move him to Boston where he played well in the playoffs. Morris just happened to be a big wing  player who organized the players only meeting that targeted the dysfunctional players AD and RJ.  The owner and head coach fully believed that Ish Smith and Reggie Jackson were top tier guards too. Also they believed that Galloway and Leuer could defeat the Bucks. You might think I am being funny but how else can anyone explain it? Mr. Gores and company picked or approved all of the players who contributed in the playoffs. Most are still under contract. One if not two of those players who have been part of the hosing history of the Pistons might get new contracts too. The ownership group still are believers in their hand picked group that got thrashed by the Bucks who lost to Toronto. And they thought that Andre Drummond, their proclaimed star player or franchise player would beat the hell out of Lopez and any other player who dared to enter the paint. Meanwhile Billups was saying that the Buchs sure like it when the Pistons do not get out on their shooters. Oracle Chauncey was not referring to the size of the wing players. He was being critical of AD who never got his butt out on any shooter for the entire series. AD said that it was just too much for him because he got too excited and couldn't think straight. Right do you believe that might be true? Do you actually believe that this ownership group has any idea which players they should be going after who do have more length? I have zero faith in the entire organization. They will go out of their way to find players who no other team has any interest in and then will out bit themselves and celebrate.

Oracle you are a stat guy so why in hell do you actually believe that Snell will make any difference at all. Can he create his own shot? Is he an outstanding defender. The bucks had their doubts. Is he a big time scorer? Why do you not look at his stats? Why is Robinson worse than Snell?

What I keep sensing here on this forum is that there are posters who like the status quo. They must enjoy being a fan of a losing team. If a poster points out actual facts that happened in the past, they must be scolded and condemned for being too negative and pointing out the obvious. Nothing I have said can be obvious to this owner who might be  writing that new contract for AD as I write this.

I want a high energy starting center and another player like that to come off the bench and play back up center and power forward. The Pistons have not invested their money wisely. They need to spend more money on the back court. We need a top tier point guard. I suspect that Casey will try Galloway at that position now that he has taken so much criticism for using Langston on the wings. Here is a final thought for you to digest. I believe that the successful teams at any level win because they believe in ball and player movement. Standing around is easy and players who make millions of dollars can preserve their bodies and future income by faking it on both offense and defense. Also, to be successful playing strong player and ball movement type offenses, you need high IQ players to make that work. You need really good screener which we have none of except for ZaZa last season and Johnson when he played for the Pistons. Ball and player movement when playing both sides of the court help players get their shots off without a hand in their face. Luke can play that style. Johnson could play that style. A lot of players cannot function in that type of offense. They need to have the ball in their hands a lot. Ball dominate type players have been the mainstay for this ownership group and the last two head coaches. That is why those coaches were hired because it fits the owners philosophy. Golden State and other successful teams do the opposite and their owners do not believe that Mr. Gores style will ever work. I don't either.

You tired me out just answering a few of the many delusional points you make here.

You remind me of a smarter Lee356/357, at least you do know more basketball than he ever did, but you also have some strange ideas about things that make me wonder about you at times.

[cool breeze]

"Did you actually even watch any Playoff games carefully this year? If you did and understood what you were watching then you could have identified that no team that didn't have strong defenders could advance. The Pistons for example had the worst showing of any team who made the playoffs. They didn't have the players who had a clue how to play effective defense." - Don

I'll just say this about that. What's the point of you watching games when it's totally impossible for you to analyze what's going on and make logical conclusions. The reasons you come up with for losing are SYMPTOMS, not the real problem, and you should know better, but you consistently fall back on the same silly notions. You're the guy that would conclude that a runny nose is caused... by a runny nose!

Why didn't the Pistons play effective defense? Why weren't they more competitive?

Well, you shouldn't have to go too far to get the answers.
1. If you have wings the size of guards, you're going to struggle on defense, opposing players easily shoot over them, and that happened regularly in the playoffs.
2. This is also an issue on offense, when you can't shoot over your man, you struggle to get to better spots. Kennard had fear all season because it was tough to get off his shot.
3. Seriously, any team without their best player is generally toast, but I'm sure you would expect the Raptors to repeat if Kawhi leaves.

It's important to diagnose the real reasons if you ever hope to get better and compete, just like you have to analyze games better or you'll keep posting symptom posts!

Fortunately the Pistons are much smarter, they got the lengthy Snell and stocked up on LONG players in the draft... seeing any trends???

This was a good response to my post Oracle.

I guess that being a former player at two different levels and also being a high school coach might cause me to not understand what is actually going on in games. It made no difference in the outcome of that Heat-Piston game when Whiteside took the Pistons out of the playoff picture because AD didn't bother to box him out. Fundaments do count and I used to teach the fundaments.

Your argument as to why the Pistons lost ( Blake's injury) does not hold up in real time. The Pistons had no chance against the Bucks in regular season games with Griffin fully healthy. It was always like the boys playing the men. Blake is a tough player who is heads and tails better than anyone else on this Piston team. I do not disagree with that. However, the Pistons throughout the season lost to superior teams and average teams with Blake. he is just playing with dysfunctional inferior players. Regardless of how good Blake played as a healthy player, it wasn't good enough for the Pistons to do much more than get into the playoffs. The rest of the team is make up of average to below average players. So they had no chance at all from the beginning of last season and before the trade was made for Griffin. yet this owner decided to make that horrible trade for Blake anyway. He over estimated the effect Blake might have on his Son, Andre Drummond. Mr. Gores believes that AD might be the best center in basketball but just needs to work out the bad habits. The Pistons have only 1 top tier player and continue to ignore the draft as a place where they could get a real star who is young.Fans feel more confident of the future if they have a young star. Remember Zeke as a rookie where he took charge of the leadership role. By the way, Golden State managed to make the finals exciting winning their conference championship without perhaps the best overall player in the entire NBA. Other key players were hurt as well but they kept on winning. No guts - no glory.

So you believe that the Pistons lost to the Bucks because their wings were too small. Why didn't the head coach and front office know this two years ago and last summer? You also say Luke is too small and because of that he was always worried about being able to get his shot off. How does Curry get his shots off then? He is not very big. I think the Pistons brain trust thought they needed to pin the embarrassing ass kicking their team experienced and then told the media that it was because their wings were too small. They had Robinson who is bigger but didn't play him much in favor of smaller guys than him. This was a coaches decision and for some reason fans are giving Casey a big brake that they have never given any other coach. Is that because the media has brainwashed some fans? Who knows but I do know that winners come in all sizes. What is in your heart? How much have you worked for success? Are you smart enough from the get go to want to correct your flaws? How much raw talent do you possess? Why did Casey believe the opposite of what you observed as the cause for the Pistons downfall? Casey played the small guys together as a unit. What was wrong with the owner not to know that he didn't know the wings were too small?

This team bungled their future by not positioning themselves strongly in the draft year after year and then when everything blows up which it did at the end of the season and in the playoffs for the Pistons, Then they announce that something must be done on the wings. The year before they had Marcus Morris and decided to move him to Boston where he played well in the playoffs. Morris just happened to be a big wing player who organized the players only meeting that targeted the dysfunctional players AD and RJ.  The owner and head coach fully believed that Ish Smith and Reggie Jackson were top tier guards too. Also they believed that Galloway and Leuer could defeat the Bucks. You might think I am being funny but how else can anyone explain it? Mr. Gores and company picked or approved all of the players who contributed in the playoffs. Most are still under contract. One if not two of those players who have been part of the hosing history of the Pistons might get new contracts too. The ownership group still are believers in their hand picked group that got thrashed by the Bucks who lost to Toronto. And they thought that Andre Drummond, their proclaimed star player or franchise player would beat the hell out of Lopez and any other player who dared to enter the paint. Meanwhile Billups was saying that the Buchs sure like it when the Pistons do not get out on their shooters. Oracle Chauncey was not referring to the size of the wing players. He was being critical of AD who never got his butt out on any shooter for the entire series. AD said that it was just too much for him because he got too excited and couldn't think straight. Right do you believe that might be true? Do you actually believe that this ownership group has any idea which players they should be going after who do have more length? I have zero faith in the entire organization. They will go out of their way to find players who no other team has any interest in and then will out bit themselves and celebrate.

Oracle you are a stat guy so why in hell do you actually believe that Snell will make any difference at all. Can he create his own shot? Is he an outstanding defender. The bucks had their doubts. Is he a big time scorer? Why do you not look at his stats? Why is Robinson worse than Snell?

What I keep sensing here on this forum is that there are posters who like the status quo. They must enjoy being a fan of a losing team. If a poster points out actual facts that happened in the past, they must be scolded and condemned for being too negative and pointing out the obvious. Nothing I have said can be obvious to this owner who might be  writing that new contract for AD as I write this.

I want a high energy starting center and another player like that to come off the bench and play back up center and power forward. The Pistons have not invested their money wisely. They need to spend more money on the back court. We need a top tier point guard. I suspect that Casey will try Galloway at that position now that he has taken so much criticism for using Langston on the wings. Here is a final thought for you to digest. I believe that the successful teams at any level win because they believe in ball and player movement. Standing around is easy and players who make millions of dollars can preserve their bodies and future income by faking it on both offense and defense. Also, to be successful playing strong player and ball movement type offenses, you need high IQ players to make that work. You need really good screener which we have none of except for ZaZa last season and Johnson when he played for the Pistons. Ball and player movement when playing both sides of the court help players get their shots off without a hand in their face. Luke can play that style. Johnson could play that style. A lot of players cannot function in that type of offense. They need to have the ball in their hands a lot. Ball dominate type players have been the mainstay for this ownership group and the last two head coaches. That is why those coaches were hired because it fits the owners philosophy. Golden State and other successful teams do the opposite and their owners do not believe that Mr. Gores style will ever work. I don't either.

[Sparma]

I watched, in person, Rodney White as a rookie deliver one of the most devastating dunks I've ever seen, thinking I was watching a special talent.  He may have been that, but clearly something was missing.  Talk about the limits of the eye test!

By the way, there something bogus about that story of Michael Jordan deceiving Joe Dumars regarding White that Don's passed along so often.  Jordan, put kindly, doesn't have anywhere near the record as talent evaluator that Dumars had.  If indeed Michael pulled one over on Joe, it'd go down as one of his few coups as an evaluator.  Granted, things fell apart for Joe in the second half of his stay in Detroit (incidentally, best wishes to him as consultant with the Kings).  But in 2001, the year I watched Rodney, Dumars was at the outset of one of the all time great runs as GM (even when we include the awful Darko pick!), leading to one of the few superstar-less NBA titles we've ever seen.

And Stanley.  I watched a Pelicans' game in person this year in which a weak and undermanned (Davis played 21 minutes) Pelicans' team didn't let Stanley off the bench.  Yet I agree with Phil that bringing him back on a minimum contract would be good business, even though he failed miserably as a #8 pick.  Oracle's probably right that there's too much history with Casey to allow that to happen.  But as a guy on a minimum, Stanley would have value as a guy who could play D, pass pretty well, and make some rushes to the basket; and a minimum salary guy knows better than to hoist crummy 3 shots up at the unconscionable rate that Stanley did last year.  Given Piston realities, I hope that Stanley catches on with San Antonio, and gets to take some of the 2s with which he's relatively proficient, along with playing his physical brand of ball.   He could still have a decent NBA career, but passing on Grand Rapidian Booker continues to hurt.

[Oracle]

[Oracle]

"Did you actually even watch any Playoff games carefully this year? If you did and understood what you were watching then you could have identified that no team that didn't have strong defenders could advance. The Pistons for example had the worst showing of any team who made the playoffs. They didn't have the players who had a clue how to play effective defense." - Don

I'll just say this about that. What's the point of you watching games when it's totally impossible for you to analyze what's going on and make logical conclusions. The reasons you come up with for losing are SYMPTOMS, not the real problem, and you should know better, but you consistently fall back on the same silly notions. You're the guy that would conclude that a runny nose is caused... by a runny nose!

Why didn't the Pistons play effective defense? Why weren't they more competitive?

Well, you shouldn't have to go too far to get the answers.
1. If you have wings the size of guards, you're going to struggle on defense, opposing players easily shoot over them, and that happened regularly in the playoffs.
2. This is also an issue on offense, when you can't shoot over your man, you struggle to get to better spots. Kennard had fear all season because it was tough to get off his shot.
3. Seriously, any team without their best player is generally toast, but I'm sure you would expect the Raptors to repeat if Kawhi leaves.

It's important to diagnose the real reasons if you ever hope to get better and compete, just like you have to analyze games better or you'll keep posting symptom posts!

Fortunately the Pistons are much smarter, they got the lengthy Snell and stocked up on LONG players in the draft... seeing any trends???

[Oracle]

I'm not saying I wouldn't take that deal, I'd love for Stanley to break out and do it here, I like the kid a LOT!

However, the reality of the situation is that it would be awkward for Casey to take him back, and he also doesn't fit the type of player we're looking for anymore(see my next post).

BTW, Drummond isn't going anywhere any time soon, but this season is really the make or break season for him here. If he shows that he wants to win it all and plays like Blake, all out when he's on the floor, they he'll be here a long time.

If he doesn't, IMO, they'll move him, and I wouldn't even rule out them moving him by the Feb deadline it the trend is clear.

Having said that, my prediction is that we're going to see a focused player out of Drummond this season. My focus is what ever is best for the team is what I want, you guys keep driving each other into their corners because of the harsh statements about players. Think team, not players and let the rest take care of itself.

I'm looking for the big 3 to be exactly that... stay tuned!

[Phil-Good]

Listen guys, Stanley Johnson is A bust. No questions about it. We talking about A minimum, salary, spot guy who did lock down K.Leonard. Stanley Johnson locked the MVP down guys! I think A guy like that can be of some use on A minimum salary.


I said 1000 times on the form that Devin Booker was the kid we should pick before the draft. That was my guy. But now it is what it is. He A BUST!


But I would welcome him back as A defensive specialist, minimum salary guy.

[cool breeze]

Seriously, Don still bitches about Rodney White 18 years after that blown pick.  But if you look at their stats, Rodney White and Stanley Johnson are very similar, at least through the first 4 years of their career.

In fact, the statistical similarities are uncanny.



And now Phil is jumping on the Stanley Johnson bandwagon  

There you go with those bogus stats to back up your opinions. You can't know squat about White or you wouldn't have written this post. White and Johnson have two distinct opposite histories as basketball players and individuals and their approach to life. Johnson has high character and was an exceptional student outside of basketball with a high IQ. Did you ever see White play Murph? I suspect you haven't. Johnson and White are complete opposites. The rumor the press stated was that Joe Dumars drafted While because Michael Jordan advised him to do it. Most likely Michael didn't want Joe to draft Joe Johnson. Yes Joe passed on Johnson like he passed on Wade and Anthony for Darko. White put on the Piston uniform and stunk it up so bad in the Summer league games that he was done before the start of training camp. Prince became the Pistons small forward of the future instead of White but sat the bench somehow when Michael Curry beat him out. Johnson on the other hand played strongly in summer league games after being drafted. He also made the rotation as a rookie and played well in the playoffs as you know but ignore with your stat based logic. This is what went wrong relating to the Johnson pick. Stanleywas butting heads with AD and RJ from day one noticing that he was playing with slackers on defense. The owner didn't like that and the politically correct head coach made sure Johnson knew his place which was to never enter into a leadership role as the owner had decided by using his crystal ball that AD and RJ would be the team leaders even if they lacked any leadership ability. Those two players can do no wrong in the eyes of the owner who enables dysfunction in my opinion. You also enable dysfunction by bringing up meaningless stats to support your guy Andre Drummond. You and the owner have this in common blind love for a player who is overweight, out of shape and plays with a low basketball IQ. How can you love him so. Maybe AD will create a song and sing it to you because he is moving up fast in the music business and pre game dancing attention. Give me the shimmy after a dunk Andre. Did you ever see AD's man blow by him after one of AD's dunks and following shimmy and then get a layup on the other end? I have seen that too many times.

You must have dug deep to find any stats on Rodney. He was a bust early on. Joe didn't check that character box before pulling the trigger on him. What is important about bringing up Rodney White in my previous post was to show fans why the Pistons have struggled since Billups was traded. White-Darko-Maxiell-Daye - Charlie V etc so you name it and the Pistons have done it to somehow place themselves in a no win position for the future year after year. You don't win with slackers on defense. White was was a horrible defender and a player who had no concept of how to play on a 5 man team. Give me the ball so I can shoot it. Teammates were never pleased when he showed up on the court and that might be why he changed schools so much before becoming the Pistons first round pick. Joe Dumars and his staff had a lot of really good players they could have focused on. It must be true that they never did a background check on White or put in any work that they should have done. How can you keep a position when you make so many uninformed decisions ? Yet Dumars has now landed a new high profile job. Is this another example of it is not what you know but who you know. Oracle brought that old statement up a few days ago.

Did you create this post because you hate it when anyone makes a critical remark about Andre? Are you Andre? You sure are clever if that is true. Still nothing has changed some of us which includes myself and Phil really do not enjoy watching AD play defense. I can't imagine how anyone could enjoy that. I wonder how you rationalize those situations that have happened in the past relating to Embid just kicking AD's ass so much that he has to be taken out of the game out of pure embarrassment. And then there were the games between AD and Anthony Davis which were even worse. AD gets beat mentally in those matchups. How can a coach do anything with that problem? It sounds like I might hate AD. You like to say that as an argument of intimidation. What I hate is the Piston brain trust for not creating a competitive team full of high achievers. I wish AD well in the music business. He is a good guy off the court. I just want to watch good basketball not dysfunctional basketball.

[cool breeze]

Phillip is trying, but it's a waste of time. Casey gave Stanley more opportunity and praise than he quite frankly deserved, but nothing worked, he just doesn't have what it takes right now. I truly hope he rights his ship, but he's somebody's else's problem now. I can't see Casey wanting to see that movie again.

As for Don, he sees damn near any other Piston player and trashes them for having stats and success so far beyond anything Stanley has accomplished, but praises Stanley for doing damn near next to nothing.

Just think about it, can Stanley boast the stats of Drummond? KCP? Stuckey? You pick his whipping boy, and I bet he blows Stanley's accomplishments in the NBA out of the water. 

Don doesn't think Stanley's sh!t stinks, which is actually very helpful since he spend so much time in the lower regions of Stanley's jock!

Is it true that you can read my mind Oracle. Are you that smart? Maybe you are but somehow it must also be true then that you have seldom actually watched many games that Johnson played in as a Piston. What Johnson brought that no other Piston player came close to was DEFENSE. He was an above average defender. The Pistons do not have any above average defenders. Even as a rookie Johnson did a great job defender Labron in the playoffs. Somehow you must have forgotten that fact. And last season he shut down Leonard in an away game at Toronto. What most fans never notice is who provides help defense. I loved Moreland because he offered interior help defense that went unnoticed by Casey, the Piston front office and the owner. Who actually analyzed game film last summer among that group? I believe all three entities were AWOL last summer in that respect.

Now comes the big question for you. Did you actually even watch any Playoff games carefully this year? If you did and understood what you were watching then you could have identified that no team that didn't have strong defenders could advance. The Pistons for example had the worst showing of any team who made the playoffs. They didn't have the players who had a clue how to play effective defense. The coach didn't create a game plan that could possibly be effective against the Bucks either. Toronto's coach did create a great defensive game plan that his players executed brilliantly. Some of those players played defense like Stanley Johnson and Eric Moreland yet they also had some offensive skills as well. Johnson lacked the ability to shoot a high percentage from beyond the 3 point line. For that sin, he had to go according to Casey's logic. But Casey is a coach who had teams that couldn't measure up in the playoffs while he coached at Toronto. Casey doesn't value strong defenders like Nick Nurse does. That is why he was fired at Toronto. Toronto wanted to go in a different direction which was to improve their defense. Now we have Casey who is a players coach and somehow believes a team can win by outshooting opponents. It is not necessary in his view to have bigger and stronger defenders on the perimeter. That is why he loves Galloway.

Did anyone learn anything from the Pistons 4 game losing streak at the end of last season which was almost a total collapse in effort and will to win after Blake was injured. Those were the soft defenders you saw if you watched how inept they looked while being led again by their two cornerstones, AD and RJ. At that time it was obvious that the Pistons might have been the worst team in the NBA for those 4 games at least. Without Blake killing himself, the Pistons were nothing. They didn't have a guy like Johnson to get back in transition to prevent layups or help the helpless AD in the paint on defense. If you deny the past, you cannot learn anything. By making up crap like you did in this last post, you preserve the dysfunction that caused this entire mess where we have watched for 11 years of despair knowing our players provided less overall effort and had little to no ability to defend your grandmother if she is still alive. The Pistons are a soft team without Griffin. One player also cannot change the mental thing where our players have been among the lowest IQ NBA players of any team over the past 11 years. We have not obtained a top 3 pick in how long? When you lose this much and never decide that something drastic must be done to position yourself high up in the draft for at least one year in 11 years, how smart can the front office and owner be Oracle.

Johnson is not my favorite player but he was for sure not the guy the Pistons should have given away at the time because he did provide one thing no other player on the team at the time could provide. It showed as opposition layups increased and the paint leaked more but yet Casey never blinked an eye. He thought that he was losing because his 3 point shooting specialist were betraying him. No casey betrayed the Piston fans. Piston fans want to see players who are strong defenders who always give a better effort than their opponent. Casey brought back the Teal concept. Why not bring back the uniforms? There was a power forward from Washington who was drafted after the Pistons first round pick. He is an outstanding defender and at least in college players dreaded it when he was defending them. When you see a player who provides exceptional defensive effort like Rodman for example, something sets off a spark in you as a fan because you see a guy who is unselfish and willing to throw his body around and do whatever it takes to win. That is why I loved Ben Wallace. From the first day of training camp Wallace changed the Pistons culture. He also had a coach who appreciated his effort and admired what he provided in the way of help defense in the paint. We have no help defenders now. Once we get one, I will stop talking about this young kid named Stanley Johnson. I will admit that Brown shows guts too but he does not have the weight or size Johnson possesses to help much in the paint. One last comment on Johnson' history as a Piston. SVG and Casey always considered Johnson a fringe player. He somehow could not measure up with AD and RJ as potential leaders of the team. But Johnson has in the past been an outstanding leader. His high school teams won 4 state championships and he was a leader as a freshman in high school and ended up playing all 5 positions. He was also a leader as a freshman in college before arriving as the Pistons pick in the draft. Johnson does not do well playing with dysfunctional players who are half in and half out. He gets an attitude that for sure SVG and Casey didn't like. So it is true that he was not a good fit for the Pistons. But fans should know what they have without him now.

I see the Pistons playing hard until Christmas and then falling off the wagon again as their highest paid players again lose interest. They will be working on their music during the cold winter months. I will be extremely surprised if the Pistons make the playoffs. Then there will be another excuse made by the owner. Blake stubbed his toe. AD just got too excited before the games and could not get his mojo right. I still like your posts Oracle so keep them coming. You are a true Piston fan.

[Oracle]

Phillip is trying, but it's a waste of time. Casey gave Stanley more opportunity and praise than he quite frankly deserved, but nothing worked, he just doesn't have what it takes right now. I truly hope he rights his ship, but he's somebody's else's problem now. I can't see Casey wanting to see that movie again.

As for Don, he sees damn near any other Piston player and trashes them for having stats and success so far beyond anything Stanley has accomplished, but praises Stanley for doing damn near next to nothing.

Just think about it, can Stanley boast the stats of Drummond? KCP? Stuckey? You pick his whipping boy, and I bet he blows Stanley's accomplishments in the NBA out of the water. 

Don doesn't think Stanley's sh!t stinks, which is actually very helpful since he spend so much time in the lower regions of Stanley's jock!

[Murph]

Seriously, Don still bitches about Rodney White 18 years after that blown pick.  But if you look at their stats, Rodney White and Stanley Johnson are very similar, at least through the first 4 years of their career.

In fact, the statistical similarities are uncanny.



And now Phil is jumping on the Stanley Johnson bandwagon

[Murph]

Not gonna happen.  That ship has sailed.  He was a totally blown #8 pick...one of the worst picks in Pistons history, and that is saying a lot.

Phil and Don are insane.  They hate Drummond and love Stanley Johnson.  Geesh.  

I would seriously rather see Snell, Sekou and Louis King get all the minutes at SF than watch Stanley Johnson dribble the ball off his foot again, blow another layup or shoot another airball.      

If I were the Pistons, I would give Stanley Johnson A phone call. Ask him if he wants to come back to Detroit. It would be on A team friendly, minimum, two year, non-guaranteed type of deal; with A team option on the second year.


I believe Stanley can still have A Bruce Bowen, Toney Allen, poor mans Ron Artest, type of career. It's not too late to resurrect his career.


I believe Stanley Johnson can totally mimic, exactly the way Draymon Green plays. A undersize 4 who can handle the ball, make good passes and defend at A high level. Stanley can do that. Stanley even has A decent basketball I.Q. It's not on Draymon's level but the kid has the ability. Stanley is just A kid who lives in his head too much.


I say bring him back on  A minimum, two year deal.  

[Phil-Good]

[/quote]
Hasn't Stanley Johnson had enough time and opportunity to develop as a special Piston? With all his natural physical gifts and great coaching the best he could show was an offensive jackass? It's time to give the new a chance.[/quote]


I don't disagree at all. S.Johnson will not be in anybody's way. Plus, the Pistons need A extra big body and help at the wing.


It would be A simple move.

[deusXango]

I'm excited about seeing the kids compete in the summer league.  Seven seems like a lot of kids but I don't expect to see some of them beyond the first game.  

BROWN:   Ok, scratch that itch and play him a PG for the 1st gm.  My greater interest will be in seeing if there has been improvement on the offensive side of the court.  Particularly with his jumper.  Other than that why risk injury.

2nd Rnd EURO:  There is a strong possibility that he will return to Europe after SL so limit his burn.  Give him a cup of coffee then slide over for guys with NBA contracts.

KING:  Hasn't he kind of established a name in the G-League, and also been designated a recipient of one of our 2 2-way contracts.  There may be little to prove. Lemonpen, wasn't King just in the draft?

BONE:  Holder of the other 2-way contract.  Yeah,  feed him all of the PG PT he can stand in gm#2-5.  He has more to prove.

THOMAS:  Ditto Bone comment.  

SVI:  Ditto Bone comment except SG PT.

SEKOU:  48 x 5 Please !!!!

Great breakdown of the SL players, players who this year should be fighting it out for 2-3 available rotation spots; could be 3-4 but, no more. I'm eager to see who brings it and want to be a Piston; players who play with passion and I.Q.! I'm praying for a healthy and injury free SL.

[deusXango]

If I were the Pistons, I would give Stanley Johnson A phone call. Ask him if he wants to come back to Detroit. It would be on A team friendly, minimum, two year, non-guaranteed type of deal; with A team option on the second year.


I believe Stanley can still have A Bruce Bowen, Toney Allen, poor mans Ron Artest, type of career. It's not too late to resurrect his career.


I believe Stanley Johnson can totally mimic, exactly the way Draymon Green plays. A undersize 4 who can handle the ball, make good passes and defend at A high level. Stanley can do that. Stanley even has A decent basketball I.Q. It's not on Draymon's level but the kid has the ability. Stanley is just A kid who lives in his head too much.


I say bring him back on  A minimum, two year deal.  

Hasn't Stanley Johnson had enough time and opportunity to develop as a special Piston? With all his natural physical gifts and great coaching the best he could show was an offensive jackass? It's time to give the new a chance.

[Phil-Good]

If I were the Pistons, I would give Stanley Johnson A phone call. Ask him if he wants to come back to Detroit. It would be on A team friendly, minimum, two year, non-guaranteed type of deal; with A team option on the second year.


I believe Stanley can still have A Bruce Bowen, Toney Allen, poor mans Ron Artest, type of career. It's not too late to resurrect his career.


I believe Stanley Johnson can totally mimic, exactly the way Draymon Green plays. A undersize 4 who can handle the ball, make good passes and defend at A high level. Stanley can do that. Stanley even has A decent basketball I.Q. It's not on Draymon's level but the kid has the ability. Stanley is just A kid who lives in his head too much.


I say bring him back on A minimum, two year deal.

[lemonpen]

I'm excited about seeing the kids compete in the summer league. Seven seems like a lot of kids but I don't expect to see some of them beyond the first game.

BROWN: Ok, scratch that itch and play him a PG for the 1st gm. My greater interest will be in seeing if there has been improvement on the offensive side of the court. Particularly with his jumper. Other than that why risk injury.

2nd Rnd EURO: There is a strong possibility that he will return to Europe after SL so limit his burn. Give him a cup of coffee then slide over for guys with NBA contracts.

KING: Hasn't he kind of established a name in the G-League, and also been designated a recipient of one of our 2 2-way contracts. There may be little to prove.

BONE: Holder of the other 2-way contract. Yeah, feed him all of the PG PT he can stand in gm#2-5. He has more to prove.

THOMAS: Ditto Bone comment.

SVI: Ditto Bone comment except SG PT.

SEKOU: 48 x 5 Please !!!!

[Oracle]

While Westbrook may be a tough one to live up to, Bruce is very explosive like that. I read that he will likely get the start at PG for the first game of summer league because Bone won't be available until after the first game.

Summer League Issues: The good news is that we have a LOT of young players to view, the bad news is that we have a LOT of young players to view! This could be a major problem because it will make it difficult to showcase any individual player very often without compromising the value we need to get out of seeing them in situations we want to evaluate.

We've got Bruce, Thomas & Svi as 2nd year players, all three rookies from this draft and our pickup of Louis King to showcase... That's a lot of youngsters to deal with in a small sample of games.

Loads of talent to be sure... this should be very interesting for EVERY Piston fan!!!

Bruce has A very special opportunity to be A great Detroit Piston. This kid has all the Pistons DNA you could ever ask for. I would love to see Bruce get A opportunity to be the starting PG full time. If Bruce adds A mid-range game and A solid 3-ball; this kid could get the job done. Call me crazy but Bruce has some Westbrook to his game.

Bruce. 2000 shots per day minimum. Practice using your left hand only, and don't burn out your legs before the season starts.

[Oracle]

"Who might have the highest basketball IQ for the returning players? I say it is Luke Kennard." - Don


What exactly do you base this on?


I haven't seen Kennard in enough situations to make this level of judgement. In fact, it's safe to say that several Pistons are likely higher BBall IQ than a 2 year player could possibly be, including Drummond.


I don't understand what you get out of making these wild assertions, but obviously it does something for you, but it serves no useful function to dwell on this subject. Could everyone on this team get better? Obviously, and the same is true for every other team in the NBA.

[Murph]

Don...is Stanley Johnson even going to be in the League next season?

[cool breeze]

I wonder is Bruce Brown could play reserve PG.  He showed playmaking skills in last summer's Summer League.  If he could play reserve PG, that would solve a whole host of problems.  We wouldn't have to tie up money on a FA reserve PG.  We would develop that big PG and big backcourt that we need, and Brown would get the minutes that he needs to develop off the bench.


Phil...enjoy watching Drummond for the next 6 years at least, after we resign him to a max contract.  

Who might have the highest basketball IQ for the returning players? I say it is Luke Kennard. Why was an All State quarterback in high school. Why is he not our starting point guard? He plays better defense than Reggie Jackson. If you are talking about the 2nd unit, I think Brown can play that PG for sure. But what puzzles me is why Casey has not tried Luke at the point. He can see the court. He would be playing both sides of the floor instead of 1 like Reggie and Ish Smith. He does not waste the shot clock dribbling excessively.

Why do you like Drummond so much Murph? I rate him the lowest grade of any starting center since Laimbeer relating to IQ, energy on defense. Monroe was superior to AD in my opinion. Both play below average defense but Monroe does have some offensive skills unlike AD. $25 plus million could be spent on a top rated guard. In the NBA you do not win with a low basketball IQ center who has been identified by his previous coach as having the bad habit of not being engaged as a player on the court during real games. Who do you know who makes 25 plus million that has that bad habit? Will he get out on shooters? NO. Sorry but Phil is correct along with many Piston fans who have stopped watching the Pistons because AD is the franchise player of all things. Maybe you know something that I don't know. But it will not work just to call some of us AD doubters "haters". That is an argument of intimidation used often by the radical leftists in politics. Using words like "hater" or "racist" etc. is a tactic that ends intellectual thought which course is the goal of those who want to end intellectual diversity. Yet perhaps you have some information that might involve a weight loss campaign that AD might be using over the summer or maybe you know that he is busy with conditioning so he will run instead of jog back in transition defense. Who jogs in the NBA who makes over $25 mil? AD is for sure not the worst player on this Piston team. We have a lot of average to below average players but my point is that he is making too much money for the skill set and energy he provides. I keep waiting for him to wake up and become the best player is is capable of being. But I suspect he is more interested in his musical career.

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