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FORUM Empty Yes, Yes...Whatever

Post  Murph Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:03 am

Phil-Good wrote:I believe the Pistons will get Westbrook.

Here is what I would package for him.


Drummonds, Jackson and A protected first round pick. OK city will want A young buck. I would offer A future first or Toney Snell.

I will take 4 years of over paying Westbrook then 1 more season of seeing Andre Drummonds wear Pistons red, whit and blue and finishing in the 8th seed every year.

This is A great opportunity to dump Drummonds and get something back for him.


Do it. Do it now!!

Phil, your grip on reality is becoming as questionable as Don's.  First, you wanted us to draft ANOTHER shooting guard when we already had 5 on the roster. Then you wanted us to bring back Marcus Morris, to pair with his bro...so that they could commit more felonious assaults.  lol  

And now you want us to acquire Russell Westbrook. scratch



I'm beginning to think Drummond is going to command much more than $175 million for 5 years.  I mean if Kris Middleton and Tobias Harris can command 5 years for $180 million...  I mean both Middleton and Harris are fine complimentary players, but neither one is a go-to guy or a Hall of Famer.  If complimentary players like Middleton and Harris can make $180 million for 5 years, what's Drummond worth?

Unless Drummond is willing to take a home team discount, in order to stay in Detroit, the Pistons are going to have to pay Drummond $180 - $200 million for 5 years.   Good for Drummond!  He deserves ever penny.  clap

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https://detroitsportstalk.forumotion.com/viewtopic.forum?t=176


Last edited by Murph on Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:57 am; edited 1 time in total

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FORUM Empty Ring.. Ring. Hello, Oklahoma city. I have A deal for you. Yes... Yes..

Post  Phil-Good Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:56 am

I believe the Pistons will get Westbrook.

Here is what I would package for him.


Drummonds, Jackson and A protected first round pick. OK city will want A young buck. I would offer A future first or Toney Snell.

I will take 4 years of over paying Westbrook then 1 more season of seeing Andre Drummonds wear Pistons red, whit and blue and finishing in the 8th seed every year.

This is A great opportunity to dump Drummonds and get something back for him.


Do it. Do it now!!
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FORUM Empty Westbrook

Post  Sparma Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:03 am

Trading for Westbrook would be a very Gores-ey move.

I'm not a fan of his style of play, think he's already overpaid in full health, and worry that he's a serious health risk.

Still....

Gores would not trade Drummond for him, I think, for the kinds of reasons that Don's raised.

I was trying to think of trades neither involving Griffin (what would the point be for OKC, even though he played for OU?) or Drummond, as favorite son.

Also, OKC won't get anywhere near the return they got for George (the Clips were in a desperate spot because they were either going to bring to George and Kawhi OR neither), but I doubt they'd go a straight salary dump for someone who's been averaging a triple double the past three years.

Something beginning with Jackson, Galloway, and a 1st rounder came to my mind.

I would have thought Snell couldn't be traded for a half year, but Vince Ellis brings up something like a Jackson, Galloway, Snell, and Kennard trade as legit according to the NBA Trade Machine.

I'd do that one. We'd immediately be a legitimate candidate for an NBA finals (as well as a candidate for many years of NBA purgatory if things went wrong).

But I suspect we'd need to add a 1st rounder for OKC to go for it.

I would have wanted to seriously build for the future, but if Gores wants to go for it, making good on his willingness to go into luxury tax for a star, it sure would be interesting.
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FORUM Empty Glad All Is Well

Post  lemonpen Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:57 pm

Oracle wrote:
lemonpen wrote:Have you crawled out from under the table yet.   Was this your first quake experience?  
Seriously,  I hope all is well and Mother Nature calms the f back down.
No, I've experienced one before when I had a short stint out here early in my career, but to be honest, I don't think anyone ever gets used to it. My wife and kids were damn near trauma victims and didn't understand how my FAKE calm was possible  lol lol lol

The last one I experienced was TOTALLY different, it was a shaker. Shakers rattle you and you sit there wondering when it will end and how, they're scary in a different way.

The one that hit us twice was a roller, and that's a totally different experience. With rollers, you feel like there's nothing under you and you get a kind of light headed feeling. Really difficult to explain the feeling, but it's scary as hell, as the building sways and wobbles and you wonder if it will fall apart or not. It lasts less than 30 seconds, but when it's happening, if feels like many minutes.

Needless to say that I have of house full of people that miss Detroit a lot more than a week ago!

Know that feeling. My wife was a wreck while sitting through our first hurricane after moving to coastal North Carolina.
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FORUM Empty I Like Svi

Post  lemonpen Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:49 pm

He has really good court vision and ability to deliver the ball. Handles are ok with room to improve. Could be a bit stiffer on D, making better use of his height. Shouldn't he be developed at the PG. He needs more NBA PT to verify his potential.

Where is Bone. I thought he would become available for gm 2.
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FORUM Empty Sorry to Disappoint

Post  lemonpen Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:39 pm

Murph wrote:Now that Russell Westbrook as driven every other star away from the Thunder (Durant, Harden, Ibaka, George) and the Thunder has imploded...now Westbrook has demanded a trade.  lol lol lol



I'm surprised Phil and his merry band of Drummond haters (Don, lemon and Wise) haven't proposed Drummond, Reggie, Galloway and Snell for Westbrook and Adams.

Then Westbrook could come to Detroit and ruin the Pistons!  banana banana banana

OKC would have to toss in a couple of first round picks for my approval of that deal.  I happen to be in the same camp as you regarding Westbrook.  I don't recall any star running off as many star teammates as this guy.  He is as tremendously talented as he is selfish, and the OKC org & staff are boneheads for facilitating that crap.


Last edited by lemonpen on Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  cool breeze Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:06 am

Murph wrote:Now that Russell Westbrook as driven every other star away from the Thunder (Durant, Harden, Ibaka, George) and the Thunder has imploded...now Westbrook has demanded a trade.  lol lol lol



I'm surprised Phil and his merry band of Drummond haters (Don, lemon and Wise) haven't proposed Drummond, Reggie, Galloway and Snell for Westbrook and Adams.

Then Westbrook could come to Detroit and ruin the Pistons!  banana banana banana

No Murph I sure don't want another selfish ball dominate point guard on our team in Westbrook. But I would take Adams over AD in a minute. Did you see the post game interview with AD? The lady said that she better interview Andre this summer because he will be really busy next summer. AD's eyes gleamed with the thought that he will be in the spot light. He will work hard this coming season making sure he taps the ball off the offensive board 3 times before putting in through the hoop against teams who have a weak front court. AD's agent has it all planned out as to how to get that super mega contract. What if AD doesn't sign with the Pistons Murph? What will you do then? Don't worry this owner will pay any amount of money to keep his Son. But I would prefer watching both of these summer league starters. Maybe they can't rebound like AD but they play the right way and can do a lot of things AD will never be able to do. Nobody hates Andre Drummond Murph. What I don't like is the fact that he hurts the team at times more than he helps them by turning the ball over with a bad outlet pass, failing to run the court hard in transition, shooting wild shots, not dunking the ball and missing easy shots around the basket because he doesn't go up strong, and of course failing to play effective defense against good teams. Funny how you do not see any of those weaknesses in his game. Others including the announcers for the summer league games have mentioned some of AD's defects. The Pistons should trade him this summer and at least get something in return. If they don't, I hope AD gets an edge he hasn't had since arriving in Detroit. He needs to hate losing more and concentrate more on the game and get in better physical condition so he can play effective defense. He seems to get distracted easily and loses focus. If only he would use all of the energy playing tough defense and not attempt to score at all unless it is a layup attempt.

I hope AD signs with the Lakers next summer. Of course I would approve of anything that would cause Labron James to not make it through the first round of the playoffs. I am so happy Leonard didn't sign with the Lakers even though I am a bit upset that he is leaving his teammates in Toronto. Funny how fortunes change quickly. Clippers are favored to win it all.

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Post  cool breeze Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:36 am

Oracle wrote:Again, in blowout fashion, for a really good reason... these guys play STELLAR DEFENSE!

Their defense is good early in games, but it gets oppressive late in games and teams have great difficulty scoring consistently on them.

Svi looked really good, he was our high point man, Brown still can't shoot 3's, but his assists are off the chart and he did manage to score well.

Thomas didn't do nearly as well, but as a team the Pistons shot the 3 pretty well.

Again, no Sekou Sad

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You've got to be happy for Stanley Johnson landing in Toronto: This is a huge opportunity for him, and, IMO, shows that somebody out there still believes that he has a chance to turn his career around.

Stanley is going to work his azz off, and gives Toronto a quality defensive wing. They also got him on the cheap, 2 years at $7.5M, so it's low risk for them. Now Toronto needs to add another player as close to a star as they can get, but there's not much left. Kawhi really hurt the Raptors a lot because he didn't allow them to grab any of the better FA's while waiting on him to make a decision. It hurt the Lakers less because they had KCP & McGee waiting in the wings, who wanted to stay and had other deals if Kawhi became a laker.

Toronto really took it in the azz with Kawhi.


FORUM Swolle10

I really like your post Oracle. Great job! What you haven't mentioned is what a great job the Pistons assistant coaches are doing with these young players. I know few will agree with me about my next statement but I have to say it. This group of players have only played together for a short time. However, for me they have provided something that I missed for the last 3 seasons while watching our star studded cast of misfits who played in the rotations of both SVG and Casey. Notice how the front court players move their feet on defense. You mentioned how hard and effective our summer league club are playing. We already know that Brown and Thomas make a very physical back court defensively unlike any combination Casey tried last year. But the two starting bigs for the Pistons really have the fundamentals down relating to help defense. They stop dribble penetration, get their arms up to deflect cross court passes, move their feet, box out and do all the little things that I love. They play the right way.

What was disturbing for me was Casey's interview during the first game when Thomas was shooting the lights out. It was clear that he doesn't pay much attention to what goes on in these games. The announcer had to remind him what had been happening on the floor If any of us had been the head coach, we would have been going bananas thrilled that Thomas and the other players were playing so well together and that Thomas had made so many difficult long range contested shots. Has Casey already determined his lineup when the first regular season game begins? Will he sit Thomas and reduce minutes for Brown in favor of Rose, Jackson, Galloway etc regardless of the fact that both Thomas and Brown are light years ahead of any of those older players when it comes to perimeter defenders. We all have seen a lot of Brown who has a great NBA body and exceptional quickness. But seeing Thomas up close I think he looks stronger physically than Brown. Both cover a lot of ground on both ends of the floor. Neither players slacks off and takes rest periods when faking it on defense. I wish the assistant coach who is directing this young piston group was the head coach. Casey is the figure head. He is much older and must have some positives he brings but it is well known that Casey plays his contracts regardless of what happens in practice. However, if the Pistons lose because the group of veterans cannot play as a team should play, Casey will be forced to use Brown and Thomas more. These kids can play and need to get a lot of minutes next season.

One other comment came from the announcer who was a former NBA coach of the year struck a cord with me. He said you cannot just sit these young kids on the bench if you have drafted them. They waste away and have no chance of improving and the coaches can really never know if they have a keeper or not. This is what happened in both SVG and Casey's system with Henry Ellenson. I don't know if Henry will ever be an effective NBA player, but it is clear that both coaches set him back or prevented him from improving much from the time he was drafted as an 18 year old. Henry should have been playing for 3 years if necessary with the Drive if not on the Pistons squad. Last year,

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Post  Murph Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:06 am

Now that Russell Westbrook as driven every other star away from the Thunder (Durant, Harden, Ibaka, George) and the Thunder has imploded...now Westbrook has demanded a trade.  lol lol lol



I'm surprised Phil and his merry band of Drummond haters (Don, lemon and Wise) haven't proposed Drummond, Reggie, Galloway and Snell for Westbrook and Adams.

Then Westbrook could come to Detroit and ruin the Pistons!  banana banana banana

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FORUM Empty Another win and Stanley

Post  Oracle Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:09 pm

Again, in blowout fashion, for a really good reason... these guys play STELLAR DEFENSE!

Their defense is good early in games, but it gets oppressive late in games and teams have great difficulty scoring consistently on them.

Svi looked really good, he was our high point man, Brown still can't shoot 3's, but his assists are off the chart and he did manage to score well.

Thomas didn't do nearly as well, but as a team the Pistons shot the 3 pretty well.

Again, no Sekou Sad

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You've got to be happy for Stanley Johnson landing in Toronto: This is a huge opportunity for him, and, IMO, shows that somebody out there still believes that he has a chance to turn his career around.

Stanley is going to work his azz off, and gives Toronto a quality defensive wing. They also got him on the cheap, 2 years at $7.5M, so it's low risk for them. Now Toronto needs to add another player as close to a star as they can get, but there's not much left. Kawhi really hurt the Raptors a lot because he didn't allow them to grab any of the better FA's while waiting on him to make a decision. It hurt the Lakers less because they had KCP & McGee waiting in the wings, who wanted to stay and had other deals if Kawhi became a laker.

Toronto really took it in the azz with Kawhi.
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FORUM Empty Holy Roller Batman...

Post  Oracle Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:08 pm

lemonpen wrote:Have you crawled out from under the table yet.   Was this your first quake experience?  
Seriously,  I hope all is well and Mother Nature calms the f back down.
No, I've experienced one before when I had a short stint out here early in my career, but to be honest, I don't think anyone ever gets used to it. My wife and kids were damn near trauma victims and didn't understand how my FAKE calm was possible  lol lol lol

The last one I experienced was TOTALLY different, it was a shaker. Shakers rattle you and you sit there wondering when it will end and how, they're scary in a different way.

The one that hit us twice was a roller, and that's a totally different experience. With rollers, you feel like there's nothing under you and you get a kind of light headed feeling. Really difficult to explain the feeling, but it's scary as hell, as the building sways and wobbles and you wonder if it will fall apart or not. It lasts less than 30 seconds, but when it's happening, if feels like many minutes.

Needless to say that I have of house full of people that miss Detroit a lot more than a week ago!
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Post  lemonpen Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:47 am

Have you crawled out from under the table yet. Was this your first quake experience?
Seriously, I hope all is well and Mother Nature calms the f back down.
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FORUM Empty For all fans who are crazy in love with AD, listen to what a former NBA coach of the year said in the Pistons first summer league game

Post  cool breeze Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:50 am

I don't want to bash AD yet it seems I have to so as to bring some Piston fans to their senses. Ignoring what happened in the playoffs relating to our starting center and then projecting the negative impact signing him to a mega contract will do to the future of the franchise is idiotic. Murph believes AD will have a great season in his contract year. What does that say about what will happen after he signs a new contract? This is what is wrong with projecting how players will behave after signing a big contract. Both AD and RJ might play 50% harder on defense this coming season. The question we should ask is why didn't they play hard on defense in their non contract seasons? Did we ever question how hard Isiah Thomas would play in any season? We have had SLACKERS playing for the Pistons for too long.

ORCLE AND MURPH AND OTHERS WHO BASE PLAYER EVALUATION ON STATS PLEASE TAKE IN THIS STATEMENT FROM A FORMER NBA COACH OF THE YEAR.
Sam Mitchell was one of the announcers in the first Piston summer league game. At one point in the first quarter both announcers were observing how hard the guards and big men were working together to prevent dribble penetration. Mitchell said this about AD. "This is what drives you cray is that you have 7 foot players who can't stay in the league because they can't keep a point guard in front of them. There is Andre Drummond taking things in. One of those bigs that teams will try to isolate if they can". Sam says "now think about something. You are paying a guy like Andre Drummond a lot of money. Think about the difficulty of keeping him on the floor the last 5 minutes of the game in a tie game because you already know the opposing team will be trying to get him in every pick and roll situation that they can".

Poster paint me as a hater or way too negative with my prediction of what will happen if the Pistons give AD a max contract or anything more than 10 to 15 million a season for a new contract. What I don't want is to have another Charlie V on our team for the next 5 years after this coming season is over. AD has been a slacker or as SVG pointed out a player who is not "engaged" which means his mind is elsewhere at times when he is playing basketball. This game requires a players full attention mentally. And you have to get your body in the best possible condition to function at NBA energy wise. AD has not done that. He is overweight and does not run hard in transition. He jogs back and opposing centers know that and beat him into the paint. AD is like Cousins. Neither player provides enough energy on defense and have difficulty playing pick and roll defense. Regarding AD's pick and roll defense, perhaps his biggest weakness is his inability to make the correct decision on when to switch and when not to switch. He often puts his teammate guards in difficult situations having to guard the opposing center in the paint. It is difficult to change how you perceive things on the basketball court. You either have the high basketball IQ or you don't.

Now on to this last game. I really liked the combination of Brown at point and Thomas as the 2 guard. Why because they both play strong perimeter defense. Brown shares the basketball. He is a pass first point guard. For some reason, some came away thinking Brown didn't provide enough offense. I like that. Brown was trying to get his team functioning as a team not as individuals. For that some become critical of his ability. I say the opposite. Brown is a team player. The Pistons have had selfish point guards who only think about themselves or perhaps one other close buddy that they will pass the ball to very often. This is why I oppose the Rose signing. He plays like Reggie Jackson. Put both Jackson and Rose off the ball and use a point guard like Brown or Luke and the Pistons would be so much better. Feature ball and player movement more and Griffin will have a much easier time scoring or drawing opposing defenders to him so others will get easy baskets.

I liked both of the big men starters for the Pistons. They look to be fundamentally sound. Matt Costello mane the player from Iowa need to bring everything they have and I wish them well. I was hoping the Pistons could come out of the summer league finding another big who can get back in transition defense. Not sure if either player can make the team but like the way they play basketball. So that says something positive about the coaching staff and Piston management. They are looking for players who have the right stuff. I really like the Pistons assistant coach Sweeney. Some good things are happening after all with the Pistons.

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Post  Murph Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:38 am

Nice game by Khyri yesterday.  He has a nice soft touch.  Thomas, Brown and Svi all looked really good to me.  

I think as time goes on, Brown is going to be relegated into being a defensive specialist off the bench at 3 positions for the Pistons.  We have too many guys at SG who can score...Kennard, Thomas, Svi.

I liked that Drummond was present and accounted for, bonding with and rooting on our young players.  Drummond is a great teammate and will eventually develop into a team leader.




We have a much better team than last year.  

1. Kennard broke out in the playoffs and is finally ready to step into a starting role.  
2.  Snell is a huge upgrade over Ellington at SF.  
3.  Drummond will have a career year in his contract year.
4.  Morris is a huge upgrade over Maker at PF.  
5.  Rose, if healthy, will be a big upgrade over Ish.
6.  Our young players, Thomas, Brown, Sekou and Svi, will bring energy, scoring and savvy play off the bench. 




Maker needs to become our reserve center, bag the 3 point shooting, and work on his defense and shot blocking.  With those arms, could be a monster rim protector.




The goal for the season should be to win 48-50 game and make it to the 2nd round.  Anything less than that will be sorely disappointing.

Kawhi to the Clippers seriously weakens the Raptors.  They will be good, but the Pistons can beat em, if we're healthy and at the top of our game.

The teams to look out for in the East will be Milwaukee, Philly unless Embiid gets hurt as usual, Brooklyn if they don't suffer from chemistry problems brought on by Kyrie Irving, Indy with Oladepo back and Boston because Brad Stevens is a genius.   We can and must beat out a couple of those teams and snag a 4th seed or better heading into the playoffs.

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FORUM Empty OMG, Kawhi to the Clippers, Lakers crying and nobody wants to play with Westbrook!!!

Post  Oracle Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:52 am

My first mistake... NEVER Underestimate the LOGO!!! Jerry West is a Wizard! This is also good for the NBA, the competition in the west is scary good!

This is also likely good news for KCP, who's really a Laker now. I expect that they will sign him to a low end contract for multiple years, maybe 2 or 3 at most.

1. Reports: Kawhi Leonard agrees to sign with LA Clippers
2. Reports: Paul George traded to Clippers for Gallinari, Gilgeous-Alexander and multiple picks

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Post  Oracle Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:26 pm

Sparma wrote:It's too early to lock in on predictions, but right now I'd see them at 44-45 wins.  My sense was that you were envisioning more wins, Oracle, but I may have been wrong.  If you average the two #6 playoff teams from last year, you come to 45.5 wins.  If that's what you foresee at the moment, we would indeed be awfully close.
Totally agree, as I said, the landscape of the east is in flux right now, so none of us is in a position to predict, but your guess seems to be logical and within reason.

Having said that, one of the things that a good FO needs to deliver is hope, because that breeds excitement and that translates to butts in seats, and IMO, they've done that. In addition, we've got a couple of players that are household names in sport circles, Blake & Rose, so we'll get a lot of press if we can do well.

Long way to go, but the first steps look promising. I can't wait to see final rosters so that we can start to see who the competition is.
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Post  cool breeze Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:19 pm

Sparma wrote:It's too early to lock in on predictions, but right now I'd see them at 44-45 wins.  My sense was that you were envisioning more wins, Oracle, but I may have been wrong.  If you average the two #6 playoff teams from last year, you come to 45.5 wins.  If that's what you foresee at the moment, we would indeed be awfully close.

Oracle wrote:@Sparma: That's very good information, and validates that the Griffin/Drummond duo is a very good pairing and will hopefully get even better. I'm a little surprised that you say the team has improved, yet called me optimistic. Improving from an 8th seed to 6th seed doesn't strike me as overly optimistic. You might have interpreted top 6 as meaning more, but I didn't want to speculate where they would fall in the top 6 although I'm sure it isn't likely 1,2 or 3. The other seeds can't even be guessed at until we get some stabilization in rosters, which won't happen until Kawhi makes a decision.

One team I think will take a step back is Philly. Some talking heads are saying that they'll be just as good, but IMO, losing Butler and Reddick is HUGE! Those two, in my mind were the reason they did so well, both hit BIG shots all game long, and Harris isn't in either of their leagues, I don't care if he is making Blake Griffin money now!

Summer League: On one hand I want to cry and on the other, I'm upbeat.

The Bad News: No Sekou Sad, out with a strained hammy. Hammy's don't heal fast, so we may not see him at all. 

The Good News: Was that Donovan Mitchell??? No, it was another 6'3 guy we drafted who was KILLING IT... Khyri Thomas!!!

When I red this about an hour before the game, I didn't laugh, but I didn't believe it: Three predictions for your 2019 Summer League Pistons
FORUM Untitl58
Wow, talk about a real Oracle  Very Happy, this dude nailed it. Thomas rained 3's on these dudes in a game where the Pistons led by 1 after 1 period and was down by 5 at the half, then came back to blow these guys out.

Some of Khyri's drives to the basket were a thing of beauty, this kid has the whole package

Svi: Did very well, but IMO, didn't overly impress. I'd like to see more.
Brown: His offense doesn't look any better to me, and he made a lot of bad decisions for a player that was a starter most of the season.
Deividas Sirvydis: Only got 3 minutes, but he drained a 3 pointer. I think they're not going to give him a shot to make his case, but it's likely for technical roster reasons.

Team wise, I noticed that they played very good defense as the game wore on. The other thing that was noticeable right at the start of the game was the team speed. These youngsters are really fast and athletic. It got to the point that the Croat team had to play zone just to contain the Pistons.

@Don: You think that we don't agree with some of your complaints, but we do, it's just that you can dwell on the negative so much you may lose sight of the positive... like everything, you need to strike a good balance.

But I'm with you, how in the world could we sit a kid like Khyri all season when they had to know he had these skills? They went through a lot of trouble to pick him ahead of Brown, and now we're seeing why. He's got the defense and offense where Brown is still struggling on offense... he looks like Mitchell to me!

Sparma what I don't like is those phony stats fans seem to be attracted to to inflate AD's value. Maybe those stats might cause this owner to go crazy with AD's next contract. That is what I am most worried about. To bring out the stats showing AD is a superior player in the NBA so close to the time when we all saw how he performed in the playoffs and the two weeks before the regular season ended was shocking to me. AD is carrying way too much weight. As Oracle previously pointed out AD is not a 7 footer either and centers can shoot over him easily when he does get a arm up to contest a shot. I want a Ben Wallace type center. He was so much fun to watch. That is just me. I want the Pistons to win and suspect we are not going to see a good team for many years to come.

To predict the fate of the Pistons next season is difficult. But with Blake's knee injury history I believe chances of the Pistons making the playoffs are slim. Your guess might be close though and maybe that would be enough to get them in the playoffs. I am not thinking Morris will play as well as his brother did. He seems to look pretty old especially last season. I would have liked Eric Moreland as back up center.

But Casey has some answering to do relating as to why he played Galloway so many minutes. Galloway is not a playoff caliber player. Smith is not a playoff caliber player. But those two players sure had the eye of Casey while Thomas sat the bench. He does play really good defense like you said. That should have gotten him in the rotation. But I still say that Casey plays contracts and is not an objective type coach who gives the lesser paid players much attention. Maybe he will change this season. Fans have been critical of his offense and his selection of who will play together at the same time. Maybe Reggie Jackson might surprise all of us this year. He like a lot of other players who are playing for a new contract might not slack off so much.

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Post  Sparma Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:57 pm

It's too early to lock in on predictions, but right now I'd see them at 44-45 wins.  My sense was that you were envisioning more wins, Oracle, but I may have been wrong.  If you average the two #6 playoff teams from last year, you come to 45.5 wins.  If that's what you foresee at the moment, we would indeed be awfully close.

Oracle wrote:@Sparma: That's very good information, and validates that the Griffin/Drummond duo is a very good pairing and will hopefully get even better. I'm a little surprised that you say the team has improved, yet called me optimistic. Improving from an 8th seed to 6th seed doesn't strike me as overly optimistic. You might have interpreted top 6 as meaning more, but I didn't want to speculate where they would fall in the top 6 although I'm sure it isn't likely 1,2 or 3. The other seeds can't even be guessed at until we get some stabilization in rosters, which won't happen until Kawhi makes a decision.

One team I think will take a step back is Philly. Some talking heads are saying that they'll be just as good, but IMO, losing Butler and Reddick is HUGE! Those two, in my mind were the reason they did so well, both hit BIG shots all game long, and Harris isn't in either of their leagues, I don't care if he is making Blake Griffin money now!

Summer League: On one hand I want to cry and on the other, I'm upbeat.

The Bad News: No Sekou Sad, out with a strained hammy. Hammy's don't heal fast, so we may not see him at all. 

The Good News: Was that Donovan Mitchell??? No, it was another 6'3 guy we drafted who was KILLING IT... Khyri Thomas!!!

When I red this about an hour before the game, I didn't laugh, but I didn't believe it: Three predictions for your 2019 Summer League Pistons
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Wow, talk about a real Oracle  Very Happy, this dude nailed it. Thomas rained 3's on these dudes in a game where the Pistons led by 1 after 1 period and was down by 5 at the half, then came back to blow these guys out.

Some of Khyri's drives to the basket were a thing of beauty, this kid has the whole package

Svi: Did very well, but IMO, didn't overly impress. I'd like to see more.
Brown: His offense doesn't look any better to me, and he made a lot of bad decisions for a player that was a starter most of the season.
Deividas Sirvydis: Only got 3 minutes, but he drained a 3 pointer. I think they're not going to give him a shot to make his case, but it's likely for technical roster reasons.

Team wise, I noticed that they played very good defense as the game wore on. The other thing that was noticeable right at the start of the game was the team speed. These youngsters are really fast and athletic. It got to the point that the Croat team had to play zone just to contain the Pistons.

@Don: You think that we don't agree with some of your complaints, but we do, it's just that you can dwell on the negative so much you may lose sight of the positive... like everything, you need to strike a good balance.

But I'm with you, how in the world could we sit a kid like Khyri all season when they had to know he had these skills? They went through a lot of trouble to pick him ahead of Brown, and now we're seeing why. He's got the defense and offense where Brown is still struggling on offense... he looks like Mitchell to me!
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Post  Oracle Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:17 pm

@Sparma: That's very good information, and validates that the Griffin/Drummond duo is a very good pairing and will hopefully get even better. I'm a little surprised that you say the team has improved, yet called me optimistic. Improving from an 8th seed to 6th seed doesn't strike me as overly optimistic. You might have interpreted top 6 as meaning more, but I didn't want to speculate where they would fall in the top 6 although I'm sure it isn't likely 1,2 or 3. The other seeds can't even be guessed at until we get some stabilization in rosters, which won't happen until Kawhi makes a decision.

One team I think will take a step back is Philly. Some talking heads are saying that they'll be just as good, but IMO, losing Butler and Reddick is HUGE! Those two, in my mind were the reason they did so well, both hit BIG shots all game long, and Harris isn't in either of their leagues, I don't care if he is making Blake Griffin money now!

Summer League: On one hand I want to cry and on the other, I'm upbeat.

The Bad News: No Sekou Sad, out with a strained hammy. Hammy's don't heal fast, so we may not see him at all. 

The Good News: Was that Donovan Mitchell??? No, it was another 6'3 guy we drafted who was KILLING IT... Khyri Thomas!!!

When I red this about an hour before the game, I didn't laugh, but I didn't believe it: Three predictions for your 2019 Summer League Pistons
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Wow, talk about a real Oracle  Very Happy, this dude nailed it. Thomas rained 3's on these dudes in a game where the Pistons led by 1 after 1 period and was down by 5 at the half, then came back to blow these guys out.

Some of Khyri's drives to the basket were a thing of beauty, this kid has the whole package

Svi: Did very well, but IMO, didn't overly impress. I'd like to see more.
Brown: His offense doesn't look any better to me, and he made a lot of bad decisions for a player that was a starter most of the season.
Deividas Sirvydis: Only got 3 minutes, but he drained a 3 pointer. I think they're not going to give him a shot to make his case, but it's likely for technical roster reasons.

Team wise, I noticed that they played very good defense as the game wore on. The other thing that was noticeable right at the start of the game was the team speed. These youngsters are really fast and athletic. It got to the point that the Croat team had to play zone just to contain the Pistons.

@Don: You think that we don't agree with some of your complaints, but we do, it's just that you can dwell on the negative so much you may lose sight of the positive... like everything, you need to strike a good balance.

But I'm with you, how in the world could we sit a kid like Khyri all season when they had to know he had these skills? They went through a lot of trouble to pick him ahead of Brown, and now we're seeing why. He's got the defense and offense where Brown is still struggling on offense... he looks like Mitchell to me!
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Post  cool breeze Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:58 pm

Oracle wrote:As always health for any team is the most important barometer to fulfilling their potential, but with that said, they have one hell of a team for next season.

What they have done.
1. We've gotten significantly bigger: We absolutely never have to back off when teams field a large lineup. Philly had major advantages over us last season, and this season, they could field a lineup of Embiid, Simmons and Horford, and in the past, all we could do is tremble. But now, we could match that with Drummond, Griffin and Morris all 6'10 and bigger, and still have more size to throw at them. And that's not all, we can match up size wise with all of the teams in the NBA now, and the Drummond/Griffin combination should be even better. This is a major development for a team that everyone was regularly shooting over last season.

2. We now have serious depth with smaller talent drop off: We have very good depth at the 4/5, marginal depth at the SF(better if we play youngsters), and good depth at the SG position, while making the PG position higher depth and stronger. We'll lose little in that 2nd group, a group that should be capable of competing with starting groups on most teams.

3. We've added significant toughness and grit: Blake is tough, but one of my major complaints about Drummond is that he lacks toughness and a killer instinct. I don't care that Embiid out plays him(somebody is always better), but I can't stand that Embiid openly disrespects him. Drummond should be in azz kick mode, playing Embiid physically and knocking him on his azz once in awhile even if he gets tossed. At some point you have to set the tone with a bully, you just can't keep taking it.

Which leads me to my point. Adding Rose, who is a tough gritty competitor and Morris who's just plain tough, addresses a need for more toughness on this team. They won't be the Bad Boys, but they won't be the pu$$ies they've been before Blake arrived. Tough guys set the tone, and the team will follow.

4. All of that while the future is bright, and Don hates it all: Just kidding Don, but it does amaze me that with all this good stuff going on, you complain so much. The future of this team is looking bright, just how bright, we'll see starting tomorrow in summer league. We've got an amazing diversity of youngsters which span from those playable right now, to those needing development, to a potential star. No matter how you look at it, there's going to be at least 3-4 solid NBA players in that group.

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This is EASILY a top 6 team in the east, IMO.

Good post Oracle. It is good that you are happy about the prospects next season. I keep forgetting that Morris will be playing for the Pistons but wish we had a young 7 foot athletic player to fight for playing time. I do not hate Andre Drummond. He seems to be a good man. I just don't believe he is a very good basketball player for the reasons that myself and others have outlined in the past. I dislike dull basketball or low IQ basketball and when I see our players getting out smarted and out hustled, the question always comes to my brain, why am I watching this nonsense. I never feel that way when I watch a team like Golden State or our former championship teams. It has been such a long time since we have had the top players IQ wise. And our coaches do not appear to have been very smart as well over the past 11 seasons. When will we have a team that shares the basketball like a real team or plays good team defense that creates wins?

While the playoffs seem to be a distant memory for many posters where the Pistons looked like a team from the Teal era, I still have a bad taste in my mouth. What I disliked most though were the owner's comments. He seemed happy in his interview after the Pistons were completely humiliated like no other team in the playoffs this season. I would be pissed if I owned the team because there was a lack of effort involved or the fact that the Bucks played with much more desire than our team. The owner seems to be a nice guy though like Andre Drummond. He must throw some great parties for the players. Maybe we will get some good free agents if word gets around that it is fun to play for the Pistons off the court. I am being silly here and have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.

Thomas had a good game against Croatia. I am happy about that and am still wondering why Casey chose to sit Thomas for most of the season and played Galloway so much. This indicates that Thomas is working his butt off and that is what it takes to bust out and force a coach like Casey to play him in the regular season.

I wonder what the odds makers are betting relating to if at least one of our often injured players, Reggie, Blake and now Rose will be able to play more than 35 games next season. You mentioned the injury bug and those three players might have a hard time staying on their feet for an entire season as they try to keep up with some of the young studs that are taking over. That is why I have little hope that the Pistons will make the playoffs next season. One killer for sure is the fact that the year before this last season had a great crop of young players. Mr. Gores gave up our number one pick needlessly and the Clippers scored big with that pick. I guess that that is another distant memory for many fans as well.

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Post  Sparma Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:46 pm

Good post, Oracle, thoughtful and informative.  I think the FO's done a good job this off-season given their directives, although I don't quite share your apparent level of optimism.  I do see the team as improved.

Returning to an earlier issue, in response to my posting that Drummond & Griffin ranked #17 among 2 man line up pairings (at nba.com/ Stats), Lemonpen asked: "How many of the 16 2-man pairings ahead of Blake _Drummond come from the 15 other playoff teams."

Only two of the sixteen pairings above Drummond & Griffin come from non-playoff teams (Charlotte & Sac.).

But the remaining 14 top two man combinations come from just seven playoff teams.

Shockingly, six of the best two man combinations above Andre and Blake come from OKC!

So, it's not the case that all 15 playoff teams seeded above us have more productive two man combos.  Only seven do.

Also notable: only one Eastern conference playoff team has a more highly ranked duo than the Pistons: Orlando with Augustin (!) and Vucevic.


Last edited by Sparma on Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Oracle Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:06 am

As always health for any team is the most important barometer to fulfilling their potential, but with that said, they have one hell of a team for next season.

What they have done.
1. We've gotten significantly bigger: We absolutely never have to back off when teams field a large lineup. Philly had major advantages over us last season, and this season, they could field a lineup of Embiid, Simmons and Horford, and in the past, all we could do is tremble. But now, we could match that with Drummond, Griffin and Morris all 6'10 and bigger, and still have more size to throw at them. And that's not all, we can match up size wise with all of the teams in the NBA now, and the Drummond/Griffin combination should be even better. This is a major development for a team that everyone was regularly shooting over last season.

2. We now have serious depth with smaller talent drop off: We have very good depth at the 4/5, marginal depth at the SF(better if we play youngsters), and good depth at the SG position, while making the PG position higher depth and stronger. We'll lose little in that 2nd group, a group that should be capable of competing with starting groups on most teams.

3. We've added significant toughness and grit: Blake is tough, but one of my major complaints about Drummond is that he lacks toughness and a killer instinct. I don't care that Embiid out plays him(somebody is always better), but I can't stand that Embiid openly disrespects him. Drummond should be in azz kick mode, playing Embiid physically and knocking him on his azz once in awhile even if he gets tossed. At some point you have to set the tone with a bully, you just can't keep taking it.

Which leads me to my point. Adding Rose, who is a tough gritty competitor and Morris who's just plain tough, addresses a need for more toughness on this team. They won't be the Bad Boys, but they won't be the pu$$ies they've been before Blake arrived. Tough guys set the tone, and the team will follow.

4. All of that while the future is bright, and Don hates it all: Just kidding Don, but it does amaze me that with all this good stuff going on, you complain so much. The future of this team is looking bright, just how bright, we'll see starting tomorrow in summer league. We've got an amazing diversity of youngsters which span from those playable right now, to those needing development, to a potential star. No matter how you look at it, there's going to be at least 3-4 solid NBA players in that group.

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This is EASILY a top 6 team in the east, IMO.
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Post  lemonpen Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:04 pm

Sparma wrote:Thanks for your responses, Oracle and Lemonpen.

I'm having trouble getting back to the lists I was working from, but a few quick responses for now (btw, if others are interested in looking: the first ranking I found at NBA.com/Stats is of five player listings; you can tweak the stats on the side by asking about 2, 3, and 4 man combinations.)

The resources issues is big, also as we move forward.  I worked on a productivity to cost ratio earlier (using Win Shares and the proportion of the payroll taken up by a player's salary).  Drummond comes up with a positive ranking (> 1), while, surprisingly (or not given his enormous salary) Griffin does not.  If Drummond's productivity stays in the ballpark, but he gets a supermax, I'd guess his productivity to cost ratio becomes negative.  That doesn't settle everything, but it's worth considering.

Lemonpen raises an important question, that I can't go back and research at the moment.  That question does seem to shift the goal posts from what I was investigating, but it's worth pursuing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Lemonpen, but your question seems to be: Is the Griffin-Drummond superior or inferior in productivity from to pairings on the other fifteen playoff teams (And your suggestion seems to be that if it isn't then G&D don't help us get ahead of our playoff competitors, they're not a "good" pairing in that sense).  I'll pass along a hypothesis below, that I'll need to put to the test later.

Don asked whether Oracle believed that Blake and Andre are a "good fit..."?

That question can be broken down into multiple possibilities.  

We can begin with the (hypothetical?) assertion: Blake & Drummond are a bad fit.  I think I've said enough to falsify that assertion.

Another possible assertion is: G&D might be okay together, but there are better pairings on the Pistons.  Again, I think enough has been said to show that assertion to be false, at least last year.

Alternatively, another possible assertion is: G&D may be the best pairing on the Pistons, but all of the pairings on the Pistons are bad, so they are too (eg, the best two players on the 1962 Mets probably were still bad together).  Here, it's helpful that they finished exactly .500.  Unless all pairings were identical [they weren't] and led to the .500 record or if G&D were always on the floor [they weren't], we can safely infer that some pairings contributed more to winning, while others contributed more to losing.  On a 41-41 team, the best pairing contributes to winning [again setting aside the resources question here.]

Another possibility, that Don sometimes leans towards is something like: maybe they were productive in the regular season, but they're not a good playoff pairing, so they're not really a good fit.  Much to be said there, but in short I think that regular season production really is significant, as is playoff productivity.

The other position that I sometimes hear Don articulate is that stats tell us little or nothing, and that expert eye tests should settle such issues.  What I'm advocating for is both taking the eye test and stats into account (along with consideration of the payroll when trying to figure out whether G&D are a worthwhile pairing).  At least: don't ignore the stats.

At last, we come to the question Lemonpen appears to be raising about comparative productivity.  As I remember we took the 17th spot, the 18th, and the 24th.  Before I verify, I will hypothesize that something similar happens in the top 16 spots.  It won't turn out that 15 playoff teams have a pairing above Detroit's pairing.  Instead, the top players will appear in two or three pairings.  My guess is that no more than 10 teams will be represented above us.  Further, it may well turn out that not all of the pairings above G&D come from playoff teams.





lemonpen wrote:
Sparma wrote:Don: "What do you think about the basic fit relating to the type of players who currently start at power forward and center? Do you actually believe that Blake and Andre are a good fit moving forward with the process? In my previous posts, I have identified why I do not believe those two players should being playing together at the same time. That is why I believe this team is poorly constructed ...."

As soon as I learned of the trade for Blake, I've doubted the efficiency of the combination of him and Andre.  Initially at least, my eye test confirmed my skepticism.  

That said, according to my further eye test they were doing well together during the stretch towards the end when they won about 2/3 of their games, with Blake fading a bit, and Andre clearly being the best player.  According to my observations, there was a stretch when they seemed to have figured things out well as a combination.

In addition to my/our observational impressions, pertinent stats exist that it would behoove us to take into account.  NBA.com/ Stats shows that for two man line ups Griffin and Drummond together rank as the top Piston combo, and #17 in the league (right before Griffin & Jackson, with Drummond & Jackson being the third Piston combo in top 25).

But maybe combining Griffin & Drummond throws off something else?  Possibly, but in tension with that hypothesis we find (also at NBA.com/Stats) that the only five man combination ranking in the top #25 (at 24) includes Griffin and Drummond (along with Bullock, Jackson, and Brown).  Notably then, Griffin and Drummond played together when the most most productive 5 man Piston team was on the floor.

Is that absolute proof that Griffin and Drummond are a great combo, or at least the best that the Pistons have to offer?  Not necessarily, but it's strong prima facie evidence against the claim that they don't fit well together.

My own main caveat is that such a great proportion of payroll resources are devoted to Griffin and Drummond.  So even if they're productive together, arguably the level of their productivity still doesn't warrant spending such a high proportion of capped resources on them.

But at the level of just figuring out whether they fit well together on the floor, the statistical answer seems pretty straightforward: Yes.

How many of the 16 2-man pairings ahead of Blake _Drummond come from the 15 other playoff teams.  If they all come in ahead of us then is the answer "yes".

I imagine that you are correct about there being multiple 2 man combos from single teams. Particularly the well stocked teams. The data point is an important baseline from which Casey and crew can improve.
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Post  cool breeze Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:48 pm

cool breeze wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Don wrote:Exactly what is the process Oracle? You state that am still trying to coach the result. Are we to ignore the result? Relating to Andre Drummond, he was not playing in his rookie season Oracle. AD has been in the league for many years. Your statement reminds me of George Orwell's New Speak in his book "1984". If political leaders would study history than America might be more hesitant to fight in or create new undeclared wars or "limited wars. Soldiers get killed but nobody bothers to reflect on WHY WE WERE THERE? So according to your thinking all of us Piston fans should perhaps get some electric shock treatments until we forget the ass kicking our team received and how it happened.
You have a problem Don, everything is either black or white, there are no shades of gray, it's either all right or it's all wrong, binary on or off.

Your response here is precisely the issue in this country, you've lost any middle ground, your rudder is effed up, you list either left or right, with no hope of following a true course to a solution.

Do we pay attention to the result? Of course we do, that's how we learn, but it's only the final result if we're at the end of the process. Typically a person with absolutely no basketball perspective would respond about an individual, when this is ALL about a team's process, individuals come and go. 

If a baby tries to walk and it falls, do we conclude that it's time to give up, or do we pay attention to the result, and let them try again. There's a time to recognize that the result is final and there is a time to observe the result and get better.

In addition, you focus on the individual whose position, as any person in basketball knows, has the longest gestation period of any in the sport. If you get a well rounded center early, you're lucky. Andre was a project that got treated like a finished project, so go ahead, keep blaming him for the mistakes of coaching, even as he tries to right the ship from those failed adventures.

This isn't new speak, it's well known basketball speak, you just never learned it. This front office is just starting the journey.

However, none of this is likely to register with you, which is why whenever someone says something good about Drummond, you go binary and believe that they're saying everything is alright, when they've said nothing of the sort. You're just so far out there nuance and basic analysis if lost on you... oh well.

Well Oracle we have at least insured others on the question as to if AD and BG are actually a good fit. I respect Lemonpen's opinion a lot. He actually attends Piston games like I attend college games. You can see and feel things when you watch in person better than watching on television. You are correct in some respects relating to how I think about the current state of the Pistons and our power forward-center combination. I see dysfunction between the two players and how it impacts the defense mostly. You have provided some stats that if nobody ever watched a Piston game would come to the conclusion that AD is a super hero must have type player. There seems to be a stat reality and an actual eye test reality in play here. Aristotle maintains that there is only one reality. He was the champion of nature. He a was against the supernaturalism of Plato.The world of particulars or details in which we live, the world people perceive from their basic physical senses. Giving selective attention to something like stats to determine truth have no existence from the particulars. Reality is compromised as Platonic abstractions. Aristotle's universe is the universe of science which is the journey I chose in life for study. Knowledge must be derived from the the data of sense experience. I love Aristotle as he is the champion of logic.

Watching closely what is going on in a basketball game is spectacular. You can see so many things because their are 10 players doing different things but also trying to fill their role for their individual team. I see AD as a failure relating to playing the 5 man game for the purpose of winning the game. I really enjoy watching both Leonard and Curry play because everything they do relating to spending energy involves the quest of winning. If you have ever played organized basketball say in high school and then you watch the Pistons especially in person, you not only see the game with your eyes but you feel the game because of your experience of success and failure as a player. You remember which players you could count on under pressure situations etc and then you see these pro players execute or not execute the fundamentals. If you see a player jogging instead of running full out, it puts a damper on your experience as a fan. I am not trying to win anything by writing on this forum. I report what I witness from watching on television and I cam away very disappointed.  During that losing streak, AD was not the super hero that you have identified in that compilation of stats. He was not even playing hard at all during those 4 games and looked exactly like he did in the two years previous at that same point in the season. Basic hard effort goes a long way in solving a lot of problems. I did not see either the interest or the effort from Andre Drummond at that point where his team needed him the most. Then came the playoffs where AD was an embarrassment to the team as well as himself.

Now that some time as passed, it appears that fans are grasping at straws wanting to believe something other than the truth. I think that is happening because they feel that this owner is about to make another blunder by signing his favorite player to a new massive contract. Fans want to believe the owner knows what he is doing. They look for stats like you provided. Yet they really must have some doubt that the Pistons are going in the right direction. There is no other way to go now because the owner made that trade for Blake against the advise of the experts he employed at the time. The bottom line is that the Pistons lack the guards and small forwards along with a winning type starting center who can come out on top in big games against good competition. They might catch a tired team like Toronto in regular season games and win some of those games. But in all honesty, I do not believe the Pistons could have kept one game in the playoffs close for one half against any of the teams that made the playoffs this season.

I really like what Indiana is doing this summer. They have Brogdon and McConnell. McConnell is like having another coach on your team even if he doesn't play. Brogdon is tough and smart and young. Both players will create great ball and player movement and improve their team's basketball IQ. The Pistons have ball dominate type point guards and seem to love stagnation within the half court set. It is easy and lazy to play one side of the court and this coach seems to approve of the acquisition of Rose. I see more dull low IQ basketball coming unless Blake is able to play at peak performance level for the entire season. I really doubt the Pistons can make the playoffs unless one or two of the younger players bust out in a positive way. But this is only my humble opinion Oracle. I didn't like the prospects of what would happen last summer moving forward and feel the team might be even worse by next April. I see other teams doing the right thing with their "process" while the Pistons remain in the Dark Ages.  

I checked again on Indiana's pickups vs the Pistons selection of Rose. So Indiana already has Aaron Holiday who I really like but they have not only Brogdon- McConnell, but TJ Warren, Jeremy Lamb, and Edmond Summer will be in the trenches looking forward to playing against the Pistons.

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Post  cool breeze Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:32 pm

Oracle wrote:
Don wrote:Exactly what is the process Oracle? You state that am still trying to coach the result. Are we to ignore the result? Relating to Andre Drummond, he was not playing in his rookie season Oracle. AD has been in the league for many years. Your statement reminds me of George Orwell's New Speak in his book "1984". If political leaders would study history than America might be more hesitant to fight in or create new undeclared wars or "limited wars. Soldiers get killed but nobody bothers to reflect on WHY WE WERE THERE? So according to your thinking all of us Piston fans should perhaps get some electric shock treatments until we forget the ass kicking our team received and how it happened.
You have a problem Don, everything is either black or white, there are no shades of gray, it's either all right or it's all wrong, binary on or off.

Your response here is precisely the issue in this country, you've lost any middle ground, your rudder is effed up, you list either left or right, with no hope of following a true course to a solution.

Do we pay attention to the result? Of course we do, that's how we learn, but it's only the final result if we're at the end of the process. Typically a person with absolutely no basketball perspective would respond about an individual, when this is ALL about a team's process, individuals come and go. 

If a baby tries to walk and it falls, do we conclude that it's time to give up, or do we pay attention to the result, and let them try again. There's a time to recognize that the result is final and there is a time to observe the result and get better.

In addition, you focus on the individual whose position, as any person in basketball knows, has the longest gestation period of any in the sport. If you get a well rounded center early, you're lucky. Andre was a project that got treated like a finished project, so go ahead, keep blaming him for the mistakes of coaching, even as he tries to right the ship from those failed adventures.

This isn't new speak, it's well known basketball speak, you just never learned it. This front office is just starting the journey.

However, none of this is likely to register with you, which is why whenever someone says something good about Drummond, you go binary and believe that they're saying everything is alright, when they've said nothing of the sort. You're just so far out there nuance and basic analysis if lost on you... oh well.

Well Oracle we have at least insured others on the question as to if AD and BG are actually a good fit. I respect Lemonpen's opinion a lot. He actually attends Piston games like I attend college games. You can see and feel things when you watch in person better than watching on television. You are correct in some respects relating to how I think about the current state of the Pistons and our power forward-center combination. I see dysfunction between the two players and how it impacts the defense mostly. You have provided some stats that if nobody ever watched a Piston game would come to the conclusion that AD is a super hero must have type player. There seems to be a stat reality and an actual eye test reality in play here. Aristotle maintains that there is only one reality. He was the champion of nature. He a was against the supernaturalism of Plato.The world of particulars or details in which we live, the world people perceive from their basic physical senses. Giving selective attention to something like stats to determine truth have no existence from the particulars. Reality is compromised as Platonic abstractions. Aristotle's universe is the universe of science which is the journey I chose in life for study. Knowledge must be derived from the the data of sense experience. I love Aristotle as he is the champion of logic.

Watching closely what is going on in a basketball game is spectacular. You can see so many things because their are 10 players doing different things but also trying to fill their role for their individual team. I see AD as a failure relating to playing the 5 man game for the purpose of winning the game. I really enjoy watching both Leonard and Curry play because everything they do relating to spending energy involves the quest of winning. If you have ever played organized basketball say in high school and then you watch the Pistons especially in person, you not only see the game with your eyes but you feel the game because of your experience of success and failure as a player. You remember which players you could count on under pressure situations etc and then you see these pro players execute or not execute the fundamentals. If you see a player jogging instead of running full out, it puts a damper on your experience as a fan. I am not trying to win anything by writing on this forum. I report what I witness from watching on television and I cam away very disappointed. During that losing streak, AD was not the super hero that you have identified in that compilation of stats. He was not even playing hard at all during those 4 games and looked exactly like he did in the two years previous at that same point in the season. Basic hard effort goes a long way in solving a lot of problems. I did not see either the interest or the effort from Andre Drummond at that point where his team needed him the most. Then came the playoffs where AD was an embarrassment to the team as well as himself.

Now that some time as passed, it appears that fans are grasping at straws wanting to believe something other than the truth. I think that is happening because they feel that this owner is about to make another blunder by signing his favorite player to a new massive contract. Fans want to believe the owner knows what he is doing. They look for stats like you provided. Yet they really must have some doubt that the Pistons are going in the right direction. There is no other way to go now because the owner made that trade for Blake against the advise of the experts he employed at the time. The bottom line is that the Pistons lack the guards and small forwards along with a winning type starting center who can come out on top in big games against good competition. They might catch a tired team like Toronto in regular season games and win some of those games. But in all honesty, I do not believe the Pistons could have kept one game in the playoffs close for one half against any of the teams that made the playoffs this season.

I really like what Indiana is doing this summer. They have Brogdon and McConnell. McConnell is like having another coach on your team even if he doesn't play. Brogdon is tough and smart and young. Both players will create great ball and player movement and improve their team's basketball IQ. The Pistons have ball dominate type point guards and seem to love stagnation within the half court set. It is easy and lazy to play one side of the court and this coach seems to approve of the acquisition of Rose. I see more dull low IQ basketball coming unless Blake is able to play at peak performance level for the entire season. I really doubt the Pistons can make the playoffs unless one or two of the younger players bust out in a positive way. But this is only my humble opinion Oracle. I didn't like the prospects of what would happen last summer moving forward and feel the team might be even worse by next April. I see other teams doing the right thing with their "process" while the Pistons remain in the Dark Ages.

cool breeze

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