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FORUM - Page 2 Empty More General Info

Post  Oracle Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:50 pm

I'm getting this from the Basketball Reference site(Pistons Section)2018-19 Detroit Pistons Roster and Stats

BTW, Drummond is all over the league leaders stats, he's quite prolific. Langston Galloway also makes the league leaders as #1 in turnover percentage  lol. Let the hate begin!!!

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FORUM - Page 2 Empty Lemonpen's Question

Post  Oracle Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:35 pm

First of all, Happy 4th of July to all of you, enjoy oru Independence Day.

Lemon's question is a complex one, IMO, as are most of the lineup combo's as you get further away from 5.

What's the point of 2 man productivity when it's slaved to so many external factors relating to the multiple combinations of the other 3 players. Without spacing, a big man combo is likely to suffer badly and appear ineffective on that team, but be very effective on another team.

Having said that, stats can help you possibly discover some things especially when combined with the eye tests, which may be a bit stronger indicator in this case.

Griffin/Drummond totally failed the eye test early in the season. I think anyone watching games knew that this paring was a real issue. Later in the season, that totally turned around, and that pairing started to look like a very good one as the Pistons thrived. I loved watching them pose major defensive problems for other teams and when Drummond's rim protection and help defense got better, it helped Griffin become a better defender.

This paring has been positive without a doubt from this poster's eye test, the coaching staff and most of the talking heads watching.
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FORUM - Page 2 Empty Drummond & Griffin

Post  Sparma Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:29 pm

Thanks for your responses, Oracle and Lemonpen.

I'm having trouble getting back to the lists I was working from, but a few quick responses for now (btw, if others are interested in looking: the first ranking I found at NBA.com/Stats is of five player listings; you can tweak the stats on the side by asking about 2, 3, and 4 man combinations.)

The resources issues is big, also as we move forward. I worked on a productivity to cost ratio earlier (using Win Shares and the proportion of the payroll taken up by a player's salary). Drummond comes up with a positive ranking (> 1), while, surprisingly (or not given his enormous salary) Griffin does not. If Drummond's productivity stays in the ballpark, but he gets a supermax, I'd guess his productivity to cost ratio becomes negative. That doesn't settle everything, but it's worth considering.

Lemonpen raises an important question, that I can't go back and research at the moment. That question does seem to shift the goal posts from what I was investigating, but it's worth pursuing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Lemonpen, but your question seems to be: Is the Griffin-Drummond superior or inferior in productivity from to pairings on the other fifteen playoff teams (And your suggestion seems to be that if it isn't then G&D don't help us get ahead of our playoff competitors, they're not a "good" pairing in that sense). I'll pass along a hypothesis below, that I'll need to put to the test later.

Don asked whether Oracle believed that Blake and Andre are a "good fit..."?

That question can be broken down into multiple possibilities.

We can begin with the (hypothetical?) assertion: Blake & Drummond are a bad fit. I think I've said enough to falsify that assertion.

Another possible assertion is: G&D might be okay together, but there are better pairings on the Pistons. Again, I think enough has been said to show that assertion to be false, at least last year.

Alternatively, another possible assertion is: G&D may be the best pairing on the Pistons, but all of the pairings on the Pistons are bad, so they are too (eg, the best two players on the 1962 Mets probably were still bad together). Here, it's helpful that they finished exactly .500. Unless all pairings were identical [they weren't] and led to the .500 record or if G&D were always on the floor [they weren't], we can safely infer that some pairings contributed more to winning, while others contributed more to losing. On a 41-41 team, the best pairing contributes to winning [again setting aside the resources question here.]

Another possibility, that Don sometimes leans towards is something like: maybe they were productive in the regular season, but they're not a good playoff pairing, so they're not really a good fit. Much to be said there, but in short I think that regular season production really is significant, as is playoff productivity.

The other position that I sometimes hear Don articulate is that stats tell us little or nothing, and that expert eye tests should settle such issues. What I'm advocating for is both taking the eye test and stats into account (along with consideration of the payroll when trying to figure out whether G&D are a worthwhile pairing). At least: don't ignore the stats.

At last, we come to the question Lemonpen appears to be raising about comparative productivity. As I remember we took the 17th spot, the 18th, and the 24th. Before I verify, I will hypothesize that something similar happens in the top 16 spots. It won't turn out that 15 playoff teams have a pairing above Detroit's pairing. Instead, the top players will appear in two or three pairings. My guess is that no more than 10 teams will be represented above us. Further, it may well turn out that not all of the pairings above G&D come from playoff teams.





lemonpen wrote:
Sparma wrote:Don: "What do you think about the basic fit relating to the type of players who currently start at power forward and center? Do you actually believe that Blake and Andre are a good fit moving forward with the process? In my previous posts, I have identified why I do not believe those two players should being playing together at the same time. That is why I believe this team is poorly constructed ...."

As soon as I learned of the trade for Blake, I've doubted the efficiency of the combination of him and Andre.  Initially at least, my eye test confirmed my skepticism.  

That said, according to my further eye test they were doing well together during the stretch towards the end when they won about 2/3 of their games, with Blake fading a bit, and Andre clearly being the best player.  According to my observations, there was a stretch when they seemed to have figured things out well as a combination.

In addition to my/our observational impressions, pertinent stats exist that it would behoove us to take into account.  NBA.com/ Stats shows that for two man line ups Griffin and Drummond together rank as the top Piston combo, and #17 in the league (right before Griffin & Jackson, with Drummond & Jackson being the third Piston combo in top 25).

But maybe combining Griffin & Drummond throws off something else?  Possibly, but in tension with that hypothesis we find (also at NBA.com/Stats) that the only five man combination ranking in the top #25 (at 24) includes Griffin and Drummond (along with Bullock, Jackson, and Brown).  Notably then, Griffin and Drummond played together when the most most productive 5 man Piston team was on the floor.

Is that absolute proof that Griffin and Drummond are a great combo, or at least the best that the Pistons have to offer?  Not necessarily, but it's strong prima facie evidence against the claim that they don't fit well together.

My own main caveat is that such a great proportion of payroll resources are devoted to Griffin and Drummond.  So even if they're productive together, arguably the level of their productivity still doesn't warrant spending such a high proportion of capped resources on them.

But at the level of just figuring out whether they fit well together on the floor, the statistical answer seems pretty straightforward: Yes.

How many of the 16 2-man pairings ahead of Blake _Drummond come from the 15 other playoff teams.  If they all come in ahead of us then is the answer "yes".
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Post  lemonpen Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:51 am

Sparma wrote:Don: "What do you think about the basic fit relating to the type of players who currently start at power forward and center? Do you actually believe that Blake and Andre are a good fit moving forward with the process? In my previous posts, I have identified why I do not believe those two players should being playing together at the same time. That is why I believe this team is poorly constructed ...."

As soon as I learned of the trade for Blake, I've doubted the efficiency of the combination of him and Andre.  Initially at least, my eye test confirmed my skepticism.  

That said, according to my further eye test they were doing well together during the stretch towards the end when they won about 2/3 of their games, with Blake fading a bit, and Andre clearly being the best player.  According to my observations, there was a stretch when they seemed to have figured things out well as a combination.

In addition to my/our observational impressions, pertinent stats exist that it would behoove us to take into account.  NBA.com/ Stats shows that for two man line ups Griffin and Drummond together rank as the top Piston combo, and #17 in the league (right before Griffin & Jackson, with Drummond & Jackson being the third Piston combo in top 25).

But maybe combining Griffin & Drummond throws off something else?  Possibly, but in tension with that hypothesis we find (also at NBA.com/Stats) that the only five man combination ranking in the top #25 (at 24) includes Griffin and Drummond (along with Bullock, Jackson, and Brown).  Notably then, Griffin and Drummond played together when the most most productive 5 man Piston team was on the floor.

Is that absolute proof that Griffin and Drummond are a great combo, or at least the best that the Pistons have to offer?  Not necessarily, but it's strong prima facie evidence against the claim that they don't fit well together.

My own main caveat is that such a great proportion of payroll resources are devoted to Griffin and Drummond.  So even if they're productive together, arguably the level of their productivity still doesn't warrant spending such a high proportion of capped resources on them.

But at the level of just figuring out whether they fit well together on the floor, the statistical answer seems pretty straightforward: Yes.

How many of the 16 2-man pairings ahead of Blake _Drummond come from the 15 other playoff teams. If they all come in ahead of us then is the answer "yes".
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FORUM - Page 2 Empty Sparma

Post  Oracle Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:34 am

That's a very fair analysis!

I especially like the last part about the financial aspect being a factor as well!
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FORUM - Page 2 Empty Where will Kawhi go?

Post  Oracle Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:29 am

In my opinion, it's all about dying nasty!

1. He's won championships with two franchises, so another championship, while nice, isn't new.
2. Toronto could field a decent team next season, but they can't win it all, and they won't be good in 2 years.

3. All Toronto and the Lakers have to do is play the Clippers telling Blake Griffin that he's a Clipper for life, and play it on a LOOP. So whatever those guys told him is likely a LIE!!!

If I'm him, it's the Lakers: He has a chance to do something he can't do in those other stops... Build a Dynasty that could win MANY Championships.
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FORUM - Page 2 Empty Drummond & Griffin playing together

Post  Sparma Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:28 am

Don: "What do you think about the basic fit relating to the type of players who currently start at power forward and center? Do you actually believe that Blake and Andre are a good fit moving forward with the process? In my previous posts, I have identified why I do not believe those two players should being playing together at the same time. That is why I believe this team is poorly constructed ...."

As soon as I learned of the trade for Blake, I've doubted the efficiency of the combination of him and Andre. Initially at least, my eye test confirmed my skepticism.

That said, according to my further eye test they were doing well together during the stretch towards the end when they won about 2/3 of their games, with Blake fading a bit, and Andre clearly being the best player. According to my observations, there was a stretch when they seemed to have figured things out well as a combination.

In addition to my/our observational impressions, pertinent stats exist that it would behoove us to take into account. NBA.com/ Stats shows that for two man line ups Griffin and Drummond together rank as the top Piston combo, and #17 in the league (right before Griffin & Jackson, with Drummond & Jackson being the third Piston combo in top 25).

But maybe combining Griffin & Drummond throws off something else? Possibly, but in tension with that hypothesis we find (also at NBA.com/Stats) that the only five man combination ranking in the top #25 (at 24) includes Griffin and Drummond (along with Bullock, Jackson, and Brown). Notably then, Griffin and Drummond played together when the most most productive 5 man Piston team was on the floor.

Is that absolute proof that Griffin and Drummond are a great combo, or at least the best that the Pistons have to offer? Not necessarily, but it's strong prima facie evidence against the claim that they don't fit well together.

My own main caveat is that such a great proportion of payroll resources are devoted to Griffin and Drummond. So even if they're productive together, arguably the level of their productivity still doesn't warrant spending such a high proportion of capped resources on them.

But at the level of just figuring out whether they fit well together on the floor, the statistical answer seems pretty straightforward: Yes.
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FORUM - Page 2 Empty This is a much better team than last season, but...

Post  Oracle Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:19 am

Get ready for load management: Yes load management, and I'm all for it, and it's GOOD News!

We have the depth to do load management primarily for Blake & Rose, but also for Reggie when needed.

What that means is that we can get more PT/development for our youngsters that are backing up these guys as we prepare for the playoffs.

I'm hoping for a good bit of load management and a lot of youth development... Langston Galloway for 15th man of the year award anyone???
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FORUM - Page 2 Empty Shades of Gray Don...

Post  Oracle Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:11 am

Don wrote:Exactly what is the process Oracle? You state that am still trying to coach the result. Are we to ignore the result? Relating to Andre Drummond, he was not playing in his rookie season Oracle. AD has been in the league for many years. Your statement reminds me of George Orwell's New Speak in his book "1984". If political leaders would study history than America might be more hesitant to fight in or create new undeclared wars or "limited wars. Soldiers get killed but nobody bothers to reflect on WHY WE WERE THERE? So according to your thinking all of us Piston fans should perhaps get some electric shock treatments until we forget the ass kicking our team received and how it happened.
You have a problem Don, everything is either black or white, there are no shades of gray, it's either all right or it's all wrong, binary on or off.

Your response here is precisely the issue in this country, you've lost any middle ground, your rudder is effed up, you list either left or right, with no hope of following a true course to a solution.

Do we pay attention to the result? Of course we do, that's how we learn, but it's only the final result if we're at the end of the process. Typically a person with absolutely no basketball perspective would respond about an individual, when this is ALL about a team's process, individuals come and go. 

If a baby tries to walk and it falls, do we conclude that it's time to give up, or do we pay attention to the result, and let them try again. There's a time to recognize that the result is final and there is a time to observe the result and get better.

In addition, you focus on the individual whose position, as any person in basketball knows, has the longest gestation period of any in the sport. If you get a well rounded center early, you're lucky. Andre was a project that got treated like a finished project, so go ahead, keep blaming him for the mistakes of coaching, even as he tries to right the ship from those failed adventures.

This isn't new speak, it's well known basketball speak, you just never learned it. This front office is just starting the journey.

However, none of this is likely to register with you, which is why whenever someone says something good about Drummond, you go binary and believe that they're saying everything is alright, when they've said nothing of the sort. You're just so far out there nuance and basic analysis if lost on you... oh well.
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Post  cool breeze Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:32 am

Oracle wrote:DX & Murph's posts are again, right on, but Lemonpen hit the 30,000 foot view, IMO.

Don, unfortunately keeps analyzing and attempting to coach the result, which will always lead to the 100% wrong conclusion. Constantly bringing up the result of the playoff.

What mostly everyone else is focused on is the process, because to build a champion is a process, and the process isn't always a straight line, mistakes are made and will be corrected, and there's no guarantee of the outcome. The goal, as Lemonpen pointed out, is to rise to the level to which your talent/coaching/FO can take you.

Silly comparison: I don't ask that my kids be the best in their class/school, I ask that they put forth the effort to be their best, and if they do that, I'll live with the result.

So from that perspective, I can understand some of Don's frustration when some players are not putting forth the effort to be their best, he's right that's inexcusable!

However, when he brings up the playoffs failure, that's the result, not the very good process we followed to get to the playoffs. that process was very good, maximizing Blake, the growth of Drummond, the development of Kennard and Brown, and yes, even the dumping of Stanley, were all positive steps in the process.

We're at the start of the process, not the end...
lemonpen wrote:I wouldn’t call this a WIN NOW approach.   The moves thus far haven’t been drastic enough nor blanketed in a sense of urgency.  But, we know there is pressure to WIN MORE.  The huge influx of youth makes me think we are trying to Win Now & Win Later.   Or more like Win Enough Now to be ready to Win Big Later.

There are no false illusions of today’s big guns competing for the Ship, but they can continue creeping up in playoff pecking order, eventually topping out.  That is where our next star(s) rise out of the accumulation of youth (last years, this years, and next years).   Then our fading big guns with massive (kidding) expiring contracts become sufficient currency to capture the kind of reinforcements capable of propelling us fully into contention.

It makes a nice feel-good story for me anyway.

Exactly what is the process Oracle? You state that am still trying to coach the result. Are we to ignore the result? Relating to Andre Drummond, he was not playing in his rookie season Oracle. AD has been in the league for many years. Your statement reminds me of George Orwell's New Speak in his book "1984". If political leaders would study history than America might be more hesitant to fight in or create new undeclared wars or "limited wars. Soldiers get killed but nobody bothers to reflect on WHY WE WERE THERE? So according to your thinking all of us Piston fans should perhaps get some electric shock treatments until we forget the ass kicking our team received and how it happened. The most important thing is not the current process. This owner needs to do some soul searching relating to his personal relationships with players that cloud his judgment as to what is best moving forward for the team he owns. We have a center who makes a ton of money who was out smarted and out hustled by Lopez. He failed to provide any help defense, offered no individual defense with his own responsibility failing to guard his assigned man. This happened throughout the regular season against good centers.

What do you think about the basic fit relating to the type of players who currently start at power forward and center? Do you actually believe that Blake and Andre are a good fit moving forward with the process? In my previous posts, I have identified why I do not believe those two players should being playing together at the same time. That is why I believe this team is poorly constructed along with the fact that current NBA success is tied to having outstanding players at the guards and small forward positions unless you include real star players like Anthony Davis, Embid etc. AD is not a high caliber defensive big man and he is not a good offensive player. When you talk about the process I think you are thinking about the long term planning to achieve success by winning a championship. If this is the case then there is more of a reason to trade AD now so as to secure some top picks in the draft.

As for the recent draft, we must recognize that the Pistons through poor planning drafted out of the lottery and didn't get a top 2nd round pick. When you draft where our Pistons drafted, you have to be extremely lucky to obtain a player who will end up being the best player at his position eventually. The jury is also out on how the process will work with the way the young kids are developed. Since Tom Gores has owned the team, he has not shown any patience and seemed to have no tolerance for anything but immediate success. Maybe after this ass kicking and embarrassing outcome of the recent playoffs, the ownership group will now form a plan or "process" where players who do not make the rotation can play basketball in real games for an entire season in another league. Why didn't hat happen with Henry? How can you trust in anything the decision makers come up with?

The Pistons are in a nasty financial position having little to no room to sign a high quality guard so they signed Rose who is not the same player he was years ago. Blake is not the same player he was years ago either. I think when you talk about the process you are falling into a trap created by the very people who blundered for the past 11 years. The Pistons have had no history of having a "process" in recent years. Suddenly now they somehow have this "process" that will scare the hell out of the opposing teams that will kick our asses again next season. Exactly what is involved specifically relating to Andre Drummond relating to the "Process". Will the coach come up with a new defense to hide AD more? Will the coach sit AD for entire games when the Pistons play Philly? How about when the Lakers come to town? Who will play defense against Anthony Davis? Who will defend Labron? Johnson was good at defending James. Maybe Morris will help if he plays like his brother.

I like that statement Murph made in his post about Morris. Wouldn't that be something if Morris calls a players only meeting after the Pistons first loss of the season? We are going to need something like that to reduce the dull activity we are going to see on the floor I suspect. But no worries because we have the "process" going for us. That will make me sleep well now. You have to admit, the summer is more fun to write about the Pistons than during the season.

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FORUM - Page 2 Empty Another Morris

Post  Murph Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:01 pm

Well, he's not Javail McGee, but he should be serviceable as a reserve PF.  I assume Markieff will get a fair amount of minutes, and will relegate Maker exclusively to the reserve center position baring injuries.

Hey...as long as he doesn't call any team meetings, like his bro...I'm ok with this signing.  lol lol lol

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Post  Phil-Good Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:01 pm

The Pistons have to get the other twin now...

A sign and trade of some kind. But it needs to get done.
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FORUM - Page 2 Empty Morris is back... well sort of!

Post  Oracle Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:21 pm

Wow, I just noticed that we signed the bigger Morris Brother, Markieff to a two year deal!

BREAKING: Detroit Pistons sign Markieff Morris
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FORUM - Page 2 Empty Win Whenever...

Post  Oracle Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:15 pm

DX & Murph's posts are again, right on, but Lemonpen hit the 30,000 foot view, IMO.

Don, unfortunately keeps analyzing and attempting to coach the result, which will always lead to the 100% wrong conclusion. Constantly bringing up the result of the playoff.

What mostly everyone else is focused on is the process, because to build a champion is a process, and the process isn't always a straight line, mistakes are made and will be corrected, and there's no guarantee of the outcome. The goal, as Lemonpen pointed out, is to rise to the level to which your talent/coaching/FO can take you.

Silly comparison: I don't ask that my kids be the best in their class/school, I ask that they put forth the effort to be their best, and if they do that, I'll live with the result.

So from that perspective, I can understand some of Don's frustration when some players are not putting forth the effort to be their best, he's right that's inexcusable!

However, when he brings up the playoffs failure, that's the result, not the very good process we followed to get to the playoffs. that process was very good, maximizing Blake, the growth of Drummond, the development of Kennard and Brown, and yes, even the dumping of Stanley, were all positive steps in the process.

We're at the start of the process, not the end...
lemonpen wrote:I wouldn’t call this a WIN NOW approach.   The moves thus far haven’t been drastic enough nor blanketed in a sense of urgency.  But, we know there is pressure to WIN MORE.  The huge influx of youth makes me think we are trying to Win Now & Win Later.   Or more like Win Enough Now to be ready to Win Big Later.

There are no false illusions of today’s big guns competing for the Ship, but they can continue creeping up in playoff pecking order, eventually topping out.  That is where our next star(s) rise out of the accumulation of youth (last years, this years, and next years).   Then our fading big guns with massive (kidding) expiring contracts become sufficient currency to capture the kind of reinforcements capable of propelling us fully into contention.

It makes a nice feel-good story for me anyway.
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FORUM - Page 2 Empty The addition of Rose makes things difficult for whoever plays the owner guard for the Pistons

Post  cool breeze Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:26 pm

Now we have another ball dominated point guard who's main focus is to score himself. Ish Smith provided that same thing. Maybe Rose will not be as big of a liability on the defensive end as Smith depending on how many minutes he can play healthy. But the combination of Jackson and Rose prevents the Pistons from changing tempo or strategy when things are not going well. It might have been more fun for fans to see the spark of energy youth brings to the basketball court at the point guard position. A pass first high energy point guard who defends exceptionally well who can score 10-16 points a game would be sweet for me at least. Maybe Jackson will be the starter with Blake playing point forward again. That is the best way to use Reggie. But the 2nd unit with Rose might be dull or have less of a spark then they did with Smith running the point. Nothing we can do about anything though so we have to hope Rose can stay healthy and improve the Piston's defense and play both sides of the court on offense. There were some younger players like Rivers who would have been an upgrade in my opinion. But the press is positive of course with anything the Piston front office might do.

Detroit passed on Jordan Bell who could have really helped the Pistons transition defense where they gave up so many easy layups last season. Bell is a shot blocker and wise defender. Of course that would not be a player our Piston's management would try to sign. If Moreland returns, I will be somewhat happy now that Bell has signed.

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Post  cool breeze Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:08 pm

Murph wrote:
lemonpen wrote:

Not if the only way it can be supported is with advanced stats.  It better be tied to having led the team to a higher playoff seed AND a deeper run.

It's kinda funny how you settled on the description of "massive" and not MAX or SUPERMAX.  You wouldn't be coming around to our way of thinking, would you.  Nah !!!! Silly question, forget I asked.

The only way you support your line of thinking is with your opinion.  But I think the Pistons will have a higher seed this year and hopefully a deeper playoff run.  Although I think that will depend on a lot of factors, including an improved roster and starting rotation, not just Drummond.

I am not familiar with Max or Supermax contracts.  I just think the Pistons will sign Drummond to a 5 year deal in the range of about $35 million a year, which seems like fair market value in today's insane market.

Yes, that was a silly question.  I am definitely not coming around to your way of thinking on Drummond.

There can be no other explanation than you are getting paid by Drummond's agent.You ignore what happened in the playoffs and provide silly obscure stats to promote our dysfunctional center.

After the Pistons endured their 4th straight ass kicking by the Bucks after they did the same thing during the regular season, most fans were disgusted with one player more than any other Piston who participated in that massacre. Piston fans came away with two strong feelings.

1, The Pistons did not belong in the playoffs and should have lost big to become a lottery team. The injury to Griffin exposed just how weak all the other Piston players actually are compared to other players who participated in the playoffs.

2. Everyone who I know that watched the Pistons in the playoffs but you felt the cat was out of the bag so to speak relating to Andre Drummond"s ability to play against real NBA playoff caliber players in the playoffs where everyone shows off their best effort and skill. AD can no longer hide behind the protective Piston owner's propaganda. Fans were disappointed in his effort and lack of basketball IQ when it counted during the playoffs. The opposing team took advantage of both of those traits that stood out and even the announcers were puzzled with AD's lack of engagement and lack of basketball IQ. To now project AD as a core player by Piston management who has earned a max contract can be nothing more than false advertising while trying to sell season tickets. The owner could sell more season tickets if he said that he is trying hard to trade AD as soon as possible but there are not any offers at this time. In the future, every NBA team is going to dissect everything the Bucks did to AD and try to duplicate it in regular season games. As usual AD will rack up offensive rebounds against tired or rebuilding teams and again he will look good on paper. But the playoffs proved that AD may be your stat king star but he lacks the ability to do all aspects players need to do if they play his position in the NBA and have any chance of winning. AD is an outstanding offensive rebounder who shows great effort in that area. However knowing his deficiencies relating to understanding TEAM defensive rotation system, anticipation as to how an opponent is trying to score at any specific time, what he should do on pick and roll plays, where his assigned man is located in the opponent's half court offense (Lopez drilling 3s and AD seen guarding nobody on the baseline), how to screen or box out offensive players hitting the glass etc, any team who is not rebuilding that has a coach who can create a game plan will destroy the Pistons unless the following takes place. The only way AD can fit a 5 man team is for the power forward playing with him to be an exceptional help defender and scorer from mid range to the 3 point line. In other words the Pistons would need a guy like Anthony Davis to make it all work. Maybe the Lakers should try to get AD on their team. For the past three seasons, the Pistons have given up a lot of layups. AD has been the prime reason for that happening.It doesn't ahappen as much when he is not playing. ZaZa did a better job of getting back fast on defense. AD is not an excellent defender which this team needs if Blake is going to continue to provide the bulk of the scoring. Blake cannot physically help AD on defense if he is giving 90% of his energy to offense. This is a horrible fit and an obvious flaw by this owner to bring Griffin to the Pistons as long as AD is playing center. Blake previously played for the Clippers with a good defensive center. Unless this owner agrees to trade AD or Griffin, I do not believe the Pistons will make the playoffs this year. I am making a big deal about how stupid it would be to offer AD any max contract or more than $10mil a season. The weight of a max or super max contract would kill the Piston's chances of getting out of the hole they are currently in where they had to sign the left over players to fill out the roster.

Murph I appreciate most of your ideas and effort you make for the forum but this stand you keep taking with AD puzzles me. It is as if the playoffs never happened. Do you believe that the Bucks wouldn't have targeted AD's lack of ability on defense as the theme of their game plan if Blake had been fully healthy? Blake could have taken more charges but there is no way he could have covered the perimeter for AD and also guarded the paint. The playoffs should have been a great lesson for the owner but somehow nothing was learned from this humiliating experience.

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Post  lemonpen Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:22 am

I wouldn’t call this a WIN NOW approach. The moves thus far haven’t been drastic enough nor blanketed in a sense of urgency. But, we know there is pressure to WIN MORE. The huge influx of youth makes me think we are trying to Win Now & Win Later. Or more like Win Enough Now to be ready to Win Big Later.

There are no false illusions of today’s big guns competing for the Ship, but they can continue creeping up in playoff pecking order, eventually topping out. That is where our next star(s) rise out of the accumulation of youth (last years, this years, and next years). Then our fading big guns with massive (kidding) expiring contracts become sufficient currency to capture the kind of reinforcements capable of propelling us fully into contention.

It makes a nice feel-good story for me anyway.
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Post  Murph Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:10 am

DX...IMO, Stefanski is feeling the pressure to win now.  That pressure might be coming from higher up (Gores). or it might be coming from the logical conclusion that we have about a 3 year window of opportunity to win with Blake, before his contract expires and he breaks down physically.  

Either way, the signing of both Rose and Frazier, as opposed to the development of Brown, Bone, Kennard, Thomas or Svi, as point guards, is the indication that the Pistons are in win now mode.

The good news is that Reggie and Frazier's contracts expire after this year, and Rose's contract expires after next year. which will open up opportunities at the PG position.  If the Pistons are patient, all of those young players might get a shot at playing PG in a year or two.



RJ, Rose, Frazier
Kennard, Brown, Galloway/Thomas/Svi
Snell, Sekou, King/Svi
Griffin, Maker, Sekou
Drummond, Maker

Reserves:  Bone, Servidis

By my count, that leaves room for one more big man.  McGee would be too good to be true, I think.  I would be happy with Moreland.

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Post  deusXango Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:07 am

Jackson/Rose/Thomas
Kennard/Brown/Sirvydis
Snell/Mykhailiuk/King
Griffin/Doumbouya/Maker
Drummond/*McGee
King, Sirvydis, Galloway, Maker, Thomas, Bone
*Hopeful signing

This fans idea for starters and backups...this is the best "win now" and development rotation I can think of...granted sight unseen.

I'm not worried, as some, about the fragility of our PG's because of the forgotten Arnie Kander...the man is a mystical wizard when it comes conditioning!
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Post  deusXango Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:20 am

Will one of my fellow posters help me understand why Frazier is signed as 3rd PG and Sirvydis is left overseas before he's had a fair shot at being seen with the other young'uns? Oracle? Lemonpen? Murph? Look at the 3rd string candidates we already have under contract. Kennard, Brown, Thomas, and Svi. We did draft Sirvydis, at the expense of giving up resources, didn't we? Is this to be another player the fans don't get to see?! Shades of Van Gundy.

I'm so tired of constantly being reminded that Sekou is the youngest player taken in the draft. If not him, someone would've been the youngest and I doubt it would be as newsworthy. Sportswriters please give us a break and start talking about the potential good fortune in Detroit who has untapped, unlimited skills, with room to grow. Lewis King should get some run because I can see him and Sekou Doumbouya raising hell on the court three years from now, when Griffin is gone, after mentoring them. This is one of the pluses for having Griffin, why not use it.

Here's some more dumb sh!t up the road...Galloway! If he's not traded, he's going to eat up some valuable PT and stunt the growth of some deserving youth who's worked his ass off to get in the rotation. Why's it dumb sh!t? Galloway is not a needle mover, just an unfair excuse to bury the future on the bench or G-League for one more year.
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Post  Murph Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:08 am

lemonpen wrote:

Not if the only way it can be supported is with advanced stats.  It better be tied to having led the team to a higher playoff seed AND a deeper run.

It's kinda funny how you settled on the description of "massive" and not MAX or SUPERMAX.  You wouldn't be coming around to our way of thinking, would you.  Nah !!!! Silly question, forget I asked.

The only way you support your line of thinking is with your opinion. But I think the Pistons will have a higher seed this year and hopefully a deeper playoff run. Although I think that will depend on a lot of factors, including an improved roster and starting rotation, not just Drummond.

I am not familiar with Max or Supermax contracts.  I just think the Pistons will sign Drummond to a 5 year deal in the range of about $35 million a year, which seems like fair market value in today's insane market.

Yes, that was a silly question.  I am definitely not coming around to your way of thinking on Drummond.

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Post  lemonpen Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:47 pm

Murph wrote:So I looked it up.  Last year, Drummond was 11th in the League in win shares last year.  (He was 1st in the league in defensive win shares for the 2nd year in a row.)  However, he was the 25th highest paid player last year.  And he will be something like the 34th or 35th highest paid player this season.

Furthermore, Drummond in still improving and he is in a contract year, so there is a good chance he will have a career year this year.  

Drummond is going to be offered a massive 5 year contract by the Pistons at the end of the season.   You heard it here first.

He is clean cut and a great teammate and citizen.  He is just the kind of player that you want as the face of the franchise.  Hopefully, he will be a Piston for life.

Not if the only way it can be supported is with advanced stats. It better be tied to having led the team to a higher playoff seed AND a deeper run.

It's kinda funny how you settled on the description of "massive" and not MAX or SUPERMAX. You wouldn't be coming around to our way of thinking, would you. Nah !!!! Silly question, forget I asked.
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Post  lemonpen Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:11 pm

If we sign a backup center and forward our number of guaranteed contracts will reach 15, not including Bone & Kings 2-way deals.  Sviaroslav could wind up being the odd man out because his 2019-2020 deal isn't guaranteed until July 5th.
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Post  cool breeze Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:50 pm

deusXango wrote:"Heat have been trying to trade Whiteside since they signed him. He’s a classic example of a guy whose stats look at lot more impressive than what he actually brings to a team. Poor attitude, doesn’t show up in big games, very limited offensive game and virtually unplayable against certain lineups. Blocks shots but has never been a net positive on defense throughout his career. Not sure if this really improves their team at all and Whiteside can be a headache to deal with."-Taken From NBADraft.Net

Hey Don, does this sound familiar? You've made Whiteside the supreme antihero countless times on this forum for punk'in out Drummond in one stupid ass play but, it seems they're cut from the same cloth by your standards. I'm going to chalk that game up as "The Battle of The Lazies" in which Drummond out lazied Whiteside...Drummond won!!

Seriously though, there's only 2-3 real centers in the game today (which "The Joker" is my personal favorite for #1). Centers just don't play an all around game or dominate like a big man should and the money Gores is paying Drummond is ridiculous because many of the things you say about Drummond are true, however, I don't agree that he should be our main trade target...he shouldn't be viewed as a leader or one of the top 3 go to players on a championship team! Drummond is one hell of a complimentary player and his offensive rebounding can't be replaced by any center in the NBA but, his offense should be built around break away dunks, alley oops, and offensive rebounds...no 3 pointers, inside finesse scoring...that energy should go into rim protecting and other defensive plays. You got him pegged right Don, you're just a tad too disgusted with him.

Thanks for that official description of Whiteside. I am not a fan of Whiteside. My point when I bring his name up is that he proved to be a smarter player than our franchise player AD when a big game was on the line. I like to help fans not to forget about Whiteside's last second tip in that officially took the Pistons out of the playoff picture. How did Whiteside get that tip in? This is what is so important? Would Laimbeer or Ben Wallace allow Whiteside to get that tip in? You know the answer to that. For the life of me, I cannot understand why to this day, AD doesn't think to box out board crashers or know where they might be coming from. It never crosses his mind.

What is so amazing to me is how so many fans have a short memory of what just happened very recently. Fans have provided their full support of AD and deflect all critical remarks about him. Yet as recently as this spring, AD was one of the worst performers of all Piston players in the playoffs against the Bucks. He could not defend Lopez in any shape or form at any time in the series. Now imagine if the Pistons had been matched up against Philly with Embid. Now after the playoffs, some fans still have not had enough of Andre Drummond and they actually are excited about the prospects of signing him to a super max contract. Failure to remove AD from the Pistons future is suicide in my opinion. I am in the minority here and am so disappointed that I am about to join all those fans who no longer watch or care about the Pistons who previously cared and dropped out because of Allan Iverson, Ben Gordon, Smith, Charlie V, Andre Drummond, Reggie Jackson and Jon Leuer and extremely small guards like Will Bynum and Ish Smith etc. Any last place team now has more chance of future success than the Pistons. Making the playoffs this season exposed the truth. The Pistons have only one player who can hold his own in this league and he is getting older. Good luck Blake.

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Post  cool breeze Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:21 pm

Murph wrote:So I looked it up.  Last year, Drummond was 11th in the League in win shares last year.  (He was 1st in the league in defensive win shares for the 2nd year in a row.)  However, he was the 25th highest paid player last year.  And he will be something like the 34th or 35th highest paid player this season.

Furthermore, Drummond in still improving and he is in a contract year, so there is a good chance he will have a career year this year.  

Drummond is going to be offered a massive 5 year contract by the Pistons at the end of the season.   You heard it here first.

He is clean cut and a great teammate and citizen.  He is just the kind of player that you want as the face of the franchise.  Hopefully, he will be a Piston for life.

You are lock step with the owner relating to the value of AD. Somehow you believe that AD and BG are a good fit. Neither can defend the paint or get out on shooters. AD is not a good offensive player to make up for his mistakes on offense. Blake has an excuse. He can play outstanding offense. But that of course doesn't matter when emotions enter the picture and basketball brings out all of our emotions and that is whey it is such a sweet sport. I hope you are right but know there is no way you know what you are talking about relating to building a winning team.

What is this stat Murph (win shares)? More stat nonsense I suspect where it is impossible to determine that at all because basketball is a 5 man game with tons of variables. Here is one stat you cannot deny. When the Pistons and a top tier team are both rested and play a game, the Pistons have no chance of winning especially in the playoffs where players show everything they have in their tank.AD plays center. Those teams score at will in the paint. Drummond doesn't meet the eye test as a player anyone should want on their team in a playoff situation. He seems to be a good citizen and does a lot for the community like you stated. But what he does on the court should matter most if you want your team to win.

AD is an experienced highly paid player who was one of the worst performers in the playoffs. As Billups pointed out, the Bucks targeted AD as a defensive liability for the Pistons. They exploited his laziness as a defender and a player who trots instead of runs back in transition guards the paint with a high IQ, or gets on on shooters. Don't you want the Pistons to win? Is it more important for you to have Andre Drummond playing for the Pistons than possibly some day becoming a contender for the championship? I ask that because AD cannot stay on the floor when he plays against Anthony Davis, Lopez, Embid and even Gortat who always makes fool out of AD. Look it up. AD gets embarrassed against smart big men. And in big games, even Whiteside is able to get a winning tip in due to the fact that AD forgets to box out. I suspect Ayton will be licking his chops waiting for his matchup against AD. But I forgot to remember that AD just gets too excited before some big games and cannot function well. Yes he plays much better when he plays against rebuilding teams with no center. Oracle's research was interesting showing that AD is not that tall relative to other top tier centers or power forwards. He is not so tall and carries 25 extra pounds. I cannot imagine why you feel this strongly about the importance of having AD part of the Piston's future. But you are right there with the Pistons owner Murph. He thinks like you do on this issue. We cannot live without this player. And the world is flat.

If AD is so important, what do you think any other NBA team would be willing to give up for him? You are the AD expert here. I would at least enjoy fantasizing about who the Pistons might get for him. Can you help me out? When the phone rings in the Pistons front office are they calling about AD and what do they want to offer the Pistons? Instead of using a deceptive stat like the one you presented, why not consider that? Is AD considered around the league as a top tier center or a 2nd tier center or 3rd tier center. Any good NBA team would want covet a center who could hold his own against top centers he would be going up against in playoff situations? After watching what Lopez did to AD this spring do you think any of those teams want him? Wouldn't you rather have top tier guards than a player like AD? Why not replace AD with someone like Greg Monroe if you like a lumbering slow footed center who can't or doesn't want to get back in transition defense? I have a lot of questions. You seem to have none when it comes to AD. It is in stone the Pistons just have to have him on your team. Pretty funny because the Pistons are big losers and have been big losers for 11 straight years. Why is that happening? Shouldn't we be looking at who has been on the team the longest and how much of the payroll they are dominating? I want a blow up to start over securing top rated guards to build a team around not a 2nd rate center.  That can only come through the draft and patience. I can't wait for the next regular season game against Philly. Make sure you don't watch that game Murph. Embid loves to embarrass AD and some posters get upset when that happens and hate Embid. Maybe that is like the times when Laimbeer got the best of the Celtic big men in big situations. Boston fans hated Laimbeer.

With that said at least you are one poster who loves AD that actually presented an argument to keep him. But for the Pistons to sign him again will destroy any chance of ever creating a winning team. Blake and AD has already sucked the life out of the Pistons with their current contracts. That is why the Pistons had to sign another limping type player to play point guard Derrick Rose. Ah well maybe Rose will surprise us for one year. But imagine two years from now with Blake and Rose playing with AD. Why not keep Leuer? The Pistons will continue to be a dull or boring very predictable type team that will struggle to stay in most basketball games next season unless something big happens relating to a trade. Blake needs an athletic powerful shot blocking paint protecting center to will dominate the defensive boards.

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