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Post  Sparma on Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:27 pm

I used to love that guy as a Piston, but I hate to think of how many years ago that was.  And he couldn't play D even back then.  I thought Cleveland was giving him his last shot.   He must still be a good shooter and passer though.  He never relied on speed or quickness or strength or height....

Let's see what he's got.  No great harm at the vet's minimum, which has climbed to 2.4 mil.  I feel bad for Buycks though, because this must mean the end of his Piston's career.  Maybe he's shown enough to catch on elsewhere.

Dang it, I see on a headline on the side that Tolliver's leaving.  There goes my favorite Piston.

And, btw, not everyone plays well with LeBron.  Simmons and Embiid must be both disappointed and relieved, because that would have been a questionable stylistic mesh; Brian Windhorst, Cleveland insider, was talking about how Embiid would need to play outside a lot more than he likes to if LeBron joined, imagining him standing outside waiting to hoist up 3s.  Maybe there was some rhetorical flourish  

With KCP I'm still having trouble seeing how (18 x 1) + (12 x 1) + ? + ? + ? = 30 + ??? isn't a financial step down from a guaranteed 16 x 5 = 80 mil.  Evidently someone persuaded KCP's family of that kind of arithmetic (if memory serves, last summer there were reports that he might pull in a bit more than 10 mil this season, given the general tightness of cash; from that perspective, it sounds like his agent's done well for him this season, maybe alongside his other client signing with LA?).  And I doubt that 80 was as high as the Pistons were willing to go, had KCP entered sincere negotiations.  Didn't Gores indicate early on, during the season, that he would go as high as needed to resign KCP?  In retrospect, maybe not an altogether sincere comment?  Or was it just that unforeseen circumstances arose? It certainly sounded to me like KCP and the Pistons were heading towards 100 mil and beyond.  My sense was that KCP & agent took offence at what they perceived to be a low ball offer, so that they stalled on good faith negotiations, only to encounter a sudden Piston change of course.  Maybe I got all of that wrong.  I hope that we can continue that conversation in 3 years when we know how it played out.   If KCP loses some $$ but flourishes with a contending team he won't regret his decision.  

deusXango wrote:Everyone seems to be satisfied with the signing of Glenn Robinson lll, but I look at the number of starts and his career averages. I'd have taken a chance on Mario Hezonja or Derrick Williams, because they'd have put more pressure on Stanley Johnson to excel. Oh well, we're who we are until something happens dramatic on the trade front. Stanley, please stop making those boneheaded decisions on when to shoot the ball. His shot selection is what I've felt that's made fans tired of him. Stanley is a physical stud and talented in every area of the game, except shooting!

Hot damn, Jose Calderon is back!


Last edited by Sparma on Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Y'all know I tend to be delusional

Post  deusXango on Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:13 pm

Everyone seems to be satisfied with the signing of Glenn Robinson lll, but I look at the number of starts and his career averages. I'd have taken a chance on Mario Hezonja or Derrick Williams, because they'd have put more pressure on Stanley Johnson to excel. Oh well, we're who we are until something happens dramatic on the trade front. Stanley, please stop making those boneheaded decisions on when to shoot the ball. His shot selection is what I've felt that's made fans tired of him. Stanley is a physical stud and talented in every area of the game, except shooting!

Hot damn, Jose Calderon is back!
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Sparma

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:32 am

Sparma wrote:Good spot for KCP in LA now.  He should do very well along with LeBron.  I thought he'd take a financial bath once he turned down, what, 90 mil from the Pistons, and he has, but it could all work out for him now, competitively at least.  And I don't think we'd be better off cash strapped with AD, Reggie J, and KCP as our top three.

Oracle, I think you were one who pointed out that KCP has the same management team as LeBron.  That likely played a role in the LeBron and KCP signings neighboring each other.
Yes, the reporting on NBA TV is that KCP was the key to getting LeBron. Signing KCP to that first one year deal allowed the Lakers to talk to LeBron's agent early and often. However, it turned out great for KCP as well because he got to show how he could help the young Lakers learn what it takes to commit to playing defense 100%.

It cost KCP early on because he deferred to the youngsters, but that also impressed Walton that he would do that in a contract year. I do remember that you thought KCP was taking a big risk, and you were right, it could have gone south, but as a player, those are the kind of risks you should be very willing to take.

I don't see where you get that he's taking a financial bath, I pointed out to you that he's averaging 15M/yr! While that's 1M less than the 16M/yr the Pistons offered, he's in a much better situation now, even though I'm in the minority here, believing that this team has a real shot at the 4-7th seed this coming season.

FYI: Your numbers are off on KCP - Report: Pistons offered Kentavious Caldwell-Pope five-year, $80 million contract I really think it was a bit less, but I do agree, inking him to that deal would have had us strapped even worse. 

I thought KCP was worth about 15M/year, it wasn't his fault that SVG wasn't too smart with a dollar and screwed things up, LOL!

Still it really worked out for him, LeBron makes everyone look better, and that translates into major bucks in the long run.
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No More Excuses...

Post  BallinD on Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:55 am

No more need to climb past Mount LeBron to get out of the East. Philly, Boston, Toronto, Milwaukee are probably ahead of us, but now we should be able to shoulder our way into the conversation, if the health gods smile on us.

I still hold out hope that we can shed Leuer and Galloway before the season starts, and pick up a PG piece or another need. We have wing depth and promise of developing talent, but no star on the wings. We do have enough SGs? Can we still make some room for Tolliver? That would be a big win, even though I hope Ellensen is finally ready.

Next week we get to see what a bunch of our wings can do in Vegas Summer League. Time will tell.
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I really want to be excited but

Post  deusXango on Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:59 am

There is no reliable plan at PG should Reggie Jackson go down for the third year in a row. Griffin and Dre can't play without him.

Not only is there no serious competition for Stanley Johnson at SF (starter no less), but 6' 6" and 6' 7" in a world of 6' 8" to
6' 10" high flyers who shoot the 3 ball for a high percentage is not a move that moves me!

Is the only value Reggie Bullock have is his contract? What I witnessed on the floor his worth should be much greater than that. The FA signing seems to be a duplication of Bullock at best.

Will Luke Kennard be "unleashed" this year and given the green light ala Devin Booker or Donovan Mitchell? The man can play!

I believe that for the Pistons to ascend to one of the top 4 in the Jamesless  east, Dwane Casey must utilize a 9-10 man rotation; start with Drummond, Griffin, Bullock, Kennard, and Jackson, with a bench of Johnson, Thomas, Robinson lll, Ellenson, and perhaps Smith or Galloway. Everybody can't play but, we can play SMARTS, SKILL, and STRENGTH!!! The day of the favorite should be over and the best talent should reign.
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LeBron & KCP

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:41 pm

I'm surprised LeBron's moving so quickly, but I have gotten sick of sports talk speculation.

That should open up the East, given that he's been the East champion 8 years running, but probably not so much as the Celtics and 76ers should step into the void, with Toronto also clearly in front of us. I doubt Cleveland makes the playoffs next year though, so we do benefit.

Good spot for KCP in LA now. He should do very well along with LeBron. I thought he'd take a financial bath once he turned down, what, 90 mil from the Pistons, and he has, but it could all work out for him now, competitively at least. And I don't think we'd be better off cash strapped with AD, Reggie J, and KCP as our top three.

Oracle, I think you were one who pointed out that KCP has the same management team as LeBron. That likely played a role in the LeBron and KCP signings neighboring each other.

San Antonio made have overplayed its hand a bit with Kahwi, because now I can't see Philly or Boston making a huge offer, with Leonard due to walk (to LA) next year. I'm guessing the Spurs and Lakers will need to negotiate straightforwardly with each other now, with no bluffing. The Spurs should still be able to get quite a good haul for a player with a year left with them.

And if Cousins joins, that will be quite a team. Still, LeBron's streak of conference championships is in serious, serious, jeopardy.
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Lakers Win...

Post  Oracle on Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:02 pm

They get LeBron, and KCP agrees to a 12M one year deal for a chance to compete for all the marbles!

At first I was a little surprised that KCP stayed, he could have gotten about 15M elsewhere(Clippers & Grizzlies wanted him), but hell, it's the Lakers and LeBron, and having made 18M last season, he's averaging 15M anyway, but now he has a shot at becoming a champion or at worse raising his stock to new heights!

I always thought he should leave Detroit and SVG, it's just better to go where people know how to use you and believe in your talent.

Now if they can snag Cousins and Leonard, the Lakers are looking at a starting lineup of:

Ball, KCP, Leonard, LeBron and Cousins! Of course they'll need a lot of time to develop some chemistry, but LeBron is great at working that out.

The West is now LOADED!
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Robinson/ Oracle

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:34 pm

Of course, it's not a cash outlay on par with the quick Galloway, Leuer, and Boban signings, but it's hardly nothing, so maybe you're right that it was hasty. It probably would have been better to make sure we couldn't resign Tolliver for a reasonable deal, then make an offer to someone like Robinson. If the mid-level exception of 8 mil+ (for non-taxpayers) is set by the NBA salary average, that would mean he's coming in at half the average. Still, I'm bummed out by the likely Tolliver departure. Can't see a Leuer deal until he proves himself healthy and productive (and even then that 10 mil salary's not inviting), unless we added a sweetener (but what would that be given our ready disposal of future 2nd round picks?).

Oracle wrote:I'm not sure about this signing, other than I think we jumped a bit early, IMO.

He wasn't likely to be in high demand, so why not wait to see what other players might shake loose as the big dogs get sorted out? Besides, he also looks like another undersized SF without the bulk of a Stanley Johnson.

I will say that when he was healthy, he did look pretty good, and may be a good change of pace off the bench shooting wise for Stanley.

However, somehow I feel/hope that there is going to be trade involving Leuer that may change things. Overall, this move doesn't excite me, so it's really a wait and see sort of thing.
Sparma wrote:I like the Robinson signing (decent potential, good shooting, reasonable contract), but I'm thinking it also means we won't resign Ennis (fine) or Tolliver (sad), who is said to have five suitors including the Knicks (remember how AT held his own v Porzingis in an early game?), one of which may offer him the 8 mil+ full (non-taxpayer) mid-level exception.  Leuer should be able to up his game some, but he's not a sufficient replacement for Tolliver.
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Robinson

Post  Oracle on Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:16 pm

I'm not sure about this signing, other than I think we jumped a bit early, IMO.

He wasn't likely to be in high demand, so why not wait to see what other players might shake loose as the big dogs get sorted out? Besides, he also looks like another undersized SF without the bulk of a Stanley Johnson.

I will say that when he was healthy, he did look pretty good, and may be a good change of pace off the bench shooting wise for Stanley.

However, somehow I feel/hope that there is going to be trade involving Leuer that may change things. Overall, this move doesn't excite me, so it's really a wait and see sort of thing.
Sparma wrote:I like the Robinson signing (decent potential, good shooting, reasonable contract), but I'm thinking it also means we won't resign Ennis (fine) or Tolliver (sad), who is said to have five suitors including the Knicks (remember how AT held his own v Porzingis in an early game?), one of which may offer him the 8 mil+ full (non-taxpayer) mid-level exception.  Leuer should be able to up his game some, but he's not a sufficient replacement for Tolliver.
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Robinson Signing

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:49 pm

I like the Robinson signing (decent potential, good shooting, reasonable contract), but I'm thinking it also means we won't resign Ennis (fine) or Tolliver (sad), who is said to have five suitors including the Knicks (remember how AT held his own v Porzingis in an early game?), one of which may offer him the 8 mil+ full (non-taxpayer) mid-level exception. Leuer should be able to up his game some, but he's not a sufficient replacement for Tolliver.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:57 pm

Oracle wrote:There is an interesting article there about under the radar FA's, and a few of them are Piston related.

See it here: Under-the-radar free agents could be intriguing additions come 2018-19

They talk about KCP & Bradley, one of whom's star is rising(KCP), and the other falling, but not totally gone(Bradley).

However there were two items that caught my eye, one possibility, and one bummer.

Toliver: Looks like it's going to be hard to get him back.
Article wrote:You know what you’re getting from Tolliver: a great teammate and a three-point specialist who hasn’t shot less than 36 percent from deep in five years. Maybe Dwane Casey can convince Tolliver it’s not a rebuild in Detroit, but the more likely outcome is that a contending team uses a chunk of its mid-level to add a low-maintenance, solid as they come guy to its locker room.
Nerlens Noel: Could he be had on the cheap? He only does one thing well, protect the rim, but that's exactly what we need to seal wins! I kind of like the idea of having a defensive lineup that covers up nights where lack of offense would otherwise result in a loss.
Article wrote:With Dallas linked to one of either DeAndre Jordan or DeMarcus Cousins through a sign-and-trade (Cousins) and/or opt-in/trade (Jordan), Noel’s days in Big D are over. He’s never going to be a star big in this league or live up to his Lottery pick status, but there’s no reason he still can’t be a serviceable five who can block shots, rebound and run the floor. He’ll almost certainly have to take a short deal for short money to prove he can be a legit rotation guy again for a good team. The Wizards, who just traded Marcin Gortat to the Clippers, are in need of such a big man -- who just happens to fit the bill of what John Wall said the team needs in the middle.

thanks for sharing this information Oracle. Really sad to think that the Pistons can't keep Tolliver who was so well liked by the players, fans and the old coaching staff. If he goes I hope he lands on a really good team that has success next season.

It is unlikely our Pistons will sign Noel who I would love to watch in a Piston uniform but for sure after losing Gortat Noel would fit in really well. Gortat always got the best of AD in those Washington matchups so it will be interesting to see how the Pistons do against Washington next season. One thing is for sure. Neither Jackson or Smith can matchup with either Wall or Beal.

KCP should get a nice contract. Bradley was injured a good share of last season and he has a history of injuries. There is no way the Pistons can sign KCP and it is unlikely that he would agree to play with the Pistons as long as Reggie Jackson is playing point guard. Reggie had KCP standing alone with few touches until his last season with the Pistons. I think KCP looked so much better playing with the Lakers who played a rookie point guard who sees the floor well and will share the basketball. I am one of the few who likes Avery Bradley and would love to have him back with the Pistons. But there is no money so we will watch Jon Leur and Langston Galloway. Galloway was over paid but he still can play pretty well in my opinion. LG can get hot from long range.

There is no replacing the chemistry man Mr. Tolliver. He will especially be missed when he played with the 2nd unit. That hurts because he has such a big spirit. Johnson and Kennard have to step up and support Blake as team leaders next season and become consistent two way players. Reggie Jackson needs to play off the ball in a new role and shoot from distance with a high percentage. Blake should play point forward. If Reggie changes his game and also becomes a better defender, I see at least some hope that the Pistons can become harder to beat. Let's also hope for a miracle that one of the two new draft picks can be effective rotation pieces.

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NBA.Com Article

Post  Oracle on Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:57 am

There is an interesting article there about under the radar FA's, and a few of them are Piston related.

See it here: Under-the-radar free agents could be intriguing additions come 2018-19

They talk about KCP & Bradley, one of whom's star is rising(KCP), and the other falling, but not totally gone(Bradley).

However there were two items that caught my eye, one possibility, and one bummer.

Toliver: Looks like it's going to be hard to get him back.
Article wrote:You know what you’re getting from Tolliver: a great teammate and a three-point specialist who hasn’t shot less than 36 percent from deep in five years. Maybe Dwane Casey can convince Tolliver it’s not a rebuild in Detroit, but the more likely outcome is that a contending team uses a chunk of its mid-level to add a low-maintenance, solid as they come guy to its locker room.
Nerlens Noel: Could he be had on the cheap? He only does one thing well, protect the rim, but that's exactly what we need to seal wins! I kind of like the idea of having a defensive lineup that covers up nights where lack of offense would otherwise result in a loss.
Article wrote:With Dallas linked to one of either DeAndre Jordan or DeMarcus Cousins through a sign-and-trade (Cousins) and/or opt-in/trade (Jordan), Noel’s days in Big D are over. He’s never going to be a star big in this league or live up to his Lottery pick status, but there’s no reason he still can’t be a serviceable five who can block shots, rebound and run the floor. He’ll almost certainly have to take a short deal for short money to prove he can be a legit rotation guy again for a good team. The Wizards, who just traded Marcin Gortat to the Clippers, are in need of such a big man -- who just happens to fit the bill of what John Wall said the team needs in the middle.
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The Pistons went in the wrong direction when the owner pulled the trigger on the Blake Griffin trade.

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:57 pm

It seems that people in this great country are always at war with each other unable to understand that there are outside forces wanting what we have and hoping we form in groups and go at each other until our Constitutional Republic will be no more. Maybe some believe it might be a possibility that this owner might end up moving the Pistons to another city. The Franchise made money or so they say even though fans have not bought in to the Pistons like they did in the past even in the years before Isiah Thomas. There seemed to always be hope and maybe more trust in the owner with belief that eventually good decisions would be made and the fun would begin.

It is clear that there is a disconnect between Piston fans and maybe some of the younger followers. The disconnect also is for sure there between the older faithful followers and this current ownership group. It was unbelievable to me that after the SVG experiment this owner did not even interview anyone to my knowledge but maybe Prince. I really did think that Zeke would come to the rescue and get the Pistons back on track. The press seldom if ever mentioned his name or that of Laimbeer. I guess Billups name was mentioned and maybe this owner did reach out and attempt to at least interview some of the old star players for the various jobs that were available. Maybe none of those former players wanted to ruin their good names in Detroit by taking on this roster and the finanical problems that prohibit much change. Maybe Mr. Gores hired some good proven smart individuals to lead the Pistons forward. Whatever happened it sure turned off a lot of old Piston fans when Isiah Thomas at least was not publicly offered any of the jobs. Mr. Gores might have as well said, we do not care what fans think. They are dumb and will accept anything.

Over every summer everyone should be skeptical when their team played so badly they were not even close to making the playoffs considering the Pistons do play in the Eastern Conference. It might be better if the owner said publicly that he is sorry for offering such a horrible product to the City. Instead fans got a lot of fluff with stats coming out our ears about AD's marvelous achievements with even an offering of his stats on boxing out which is pure nonsense. I will not go down the AD rant today. Everything that has happened is not any one player's fault. The fault lies with the ownership group. No sane person who knows anything about the NBA or basketball can believe that the Pistons are on a good course like a lot of other teams. Most teams that have done better than the Pistons decide to shed contracts knowing that they cannot ever have a championship contender with the personnel currently on their rosters. Not the Pistons. Last season our team was going through a tough period like almost every winter since we lost Mr. BigShot's team. However, the team was competitive and I liked the blend of players. I especially enjoyed Tobias Harris who is a high character player. And it was fun to watch the younger guys like Kennard get his feet wet. But clearly the hand writing was on the wall that there was great dysfunction with the highest paid players AD and RJ before the Griffin trade. The style was mind boggling where our point guards were playing their own game excluding most of the other players on the floor running wildly from end to end playing dumb. I really thought that the Pistons management would finally admit that this group of highly paid players did not function well together and would pull off key trades that would allow the Pistons to start over. At the time before the BG trade Detroit had a first round pick. I kept saying this time they will use it on a point guard. Or for sure AD would be on the block to secure a high draft pick so the Pistons could have two first rounders. When the owner went against advise from his own management team who advised against the trade and then threw in our first round pick made me feel betrayed feeling that this owner has sabotaged the Pistons for many years. Why did he do it? Did he do it because he wanted Piston fans to lose interest so he wouldn't get much backlash when he got permission to move the team to another city after tax payers had paid for the new arena?? Maybe that idea is completely wrong but that is what I believed at the time. The Clippers are rebuilding along with all the other teams that missed the playoffs knowing that some day their time will come. Who in hell feels the Pistons time will come within the next 10 years? There is good reason to be negative and disheartened. All we can do if we watch the Pistons next season is to hope that players like Kennard, Moreland, Johnson, Bullock, Buycks, the two rookies, Ellenson can have more success under the leadership of a new coach. This coach must take command and not let the most highly paid players dominate things again and poison the chemistry. The young guys need to create a new team chemistry featuring them not Ad shooting 3 point shots. Wow look I can shoot the 3 ball now everyone. My contract will be huge next time my agent negotiates a new one. Reggie will get me the ball where I want it. Keep the good times coming.

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Ssssshhhhhhh. Don't Tell Anybody

Post  BallinD on Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:30 pm

Trying to be Incognegro up in here.  BTW, though.  I'm not arguing for-or-against these points, just putting them out there as questions from the "Sketpic's Corner."

WTF wrote:
BallinD wrote:Wise:

...If you're not sold on the BG trade and think it handicaps the team in the long term while not elevating it in the short term.

...If you dislike/skeptical of RJax being our floor general, ability to move the ball and make other players better in the mold of a true PG.

...If  you want to move Andre for a piece but are frustrated at the perceived trade value of our All Star.

...If you think the team lacks Pistons DNA and a plan to get there.

...If you are not convinced, despite the assertions, that this roster is ready to compete for ECF or close to that by getting to the second round.

...If you are tired of the team not being NBA-relevant except for short stretches of the season, then they revert back to the mean.

There are a lot of reasons to be skeptical and asking questions does not make you negative IMO.  I think balance is needed to make a forum work, so long as personal attacks are not employed on the regular.  We all get testy at times due to the lack of progress from the organization and no apparent clue how to get there.

Are you trying to get added to the list  door
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You Better Be Quiet Ballin

Post  WTF on Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:54 pm

BallinD wrote:Wise:

...If you're not sold on the BG trade and think it handicaps the team in the long term while not elevating it in the short term.

...If you dislike/skeptical of RJax being our floor general, ability to move the ball and make other players better in the mold of a true PG.

...If  you want to move Andre for a piece but are frustrated at the perceived trade value of our All Star.

...If you think the team lacks Pistons DNA and a plan to get there.

...If you are not convinced, despite the assertions, that this roster is ready to compete for ECF or close to that by getting to the second round.

...If you are tired of the team not being NBA-relevant except for short stretches of the season, then they revert back to the mean.

There are a lot of reasons to be skeptical and asking questions does not make you negative IMO.  I think balance is needed to make a forum work, so long as personal attacks are not employed on the regular.  We all get testy at times due to the lack of progress from the organization and no apparent clue how to get there.

Are you trying to get added to the list  door
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Tough Time To Be A Piston Fan...

Post  BallinD on Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:31 pm

Wise:

...If you're not sold on the BG trade and think it handicaps the team in the long term while not elevating it in the short term.

...If you dislike/skeptical of RJax being our floor general, ability to move the ball and make other players better in the mold of a true PG.

...If  you want to move Andre for a piece but are frustrated at the perceived trade value of our All Star.

...If you think the team lacks Pistons DNA and a plan to get there.

...If you are not convinced, despite the assertions, that this roster is ready to compete for ECF or close to that by getting to the second round.

...If you are tired of the team not being NBA-relevant except for short stretches of the season, then they revert back to the mean.

There are a lot of reasons to be skeptical and asking questions does not make you negative IMO.  I think balance is needed to make a forum work, so long as personal attacks are not employed on the regular.  We all get testy at times due to the lack of progress from the organization and no apparent clue how to get there.
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Don

Post  WTF on Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:31 pm

I still think I'm going to bounce from posting here because I do feel as if there is some desire to silence me from being critical of this team.  You don't get this on a Lions Forum or a Wolverine forum.   Beside I'm already excited that NFL preseason is just a month away I'm sure I won't get much backlash if I pissed on the new coach for giving up 40 plus point in the Super Bowl.

College football is about to kick off soon and the Wolverines are predicted to make the NCAA Playoffs and finish in the Top 5 so Go Blue.   Lions and UM Fans don't cheer tiny victories, we don't pat players on the head for finishing second or just for trying.   The love/hate relationship of Die Hard Lions Fans is most special.

Somehow say something true about a Pistons player or don't pat them on the head for tiny accomplishments then I'm negative.  Out of all the sports NBA players get to give half ass effort and allotted all the excuses.   I don't care is the Lions go winless this season it won't because they gave half ass effort,  the Wings don't give half ass effort,  the Tigers don't give half ass effort and get heavily criticized none more than the Lions.   NBA players make the most money but don't dare talk about them at least not here.  SMH 

I'm not mad about it though
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Apologies

Post  Sparma on Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:56 pm

I ordinarily try to be evenhanded and irenic, but my comment beginning "The move of..." is inflammatory. I'd like to make things better, not worse, and that comment can't help that. I do stand by not trying to silence anyone. In fact, I'm trying to further the conversation in what has become an oddly intimate setting when exchanging views with strangers. Probably best for me to take a step back, then to see where we are when the dust settles. Best wishes to all.

Don: "WTF maybe there are some posters who are employed by Mr. Gores and his incompetent ownership group and want your voice silenced."  I'm not trying to silence anyone's voice.  The move of being relentlessly critical and then claiming victimization when there's some pushback, aided by cartoonish depictions of one's interlocutors as well as conspiracy theories, has become all too familiar in current public discourse.  Let's not go there on a fan forum where we're brought together by the love of a team.  We can do better, and routinely have.

Glad to hear that you like the Sidney Lowe appointment, Wise.  I do too.


Last edited by Sparma on Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:43 pm

WTF wrote:No I need to move on not because I'm upset by anyone's comments but because the team doesn't meet my expectation and I'm going to voice my feelings on it period,   I've made it clear that all praise needs to be earned and I'm finding it real hard to praise these players for tiny accomplishments,  I've stated I don't care what Casey did in Toronto he's in Detroit now and he needs to prove himself here before I sing a single note of praise.

I've made it clear that I'm going to scrutinize every single detail top to bottom and bottom to top rather this team win a game or loses a game.  I'm not here to cheer for second place,  or cheer AD baby steps when he's already 2 year behind where he should be,  I don't have the patience for SJ to decide he needs to work on his shot,  I'm not putting a lick of faith in RJ being injury free or becoming smarter if he isn't injured.  Quietly BG contracts makes my stomach turn so I'm going to piss and moan when he doesn't show up big.   

I'm not going to sit quietly after a loss with a better luck next time attitude pointing out tiny positives.  You only do this when a team lays it on the line blood sweat and tears, did everything right only to come up short.  Until these players take losing seriously and start getting angry about it then it's hard to respect them.

If I'm Negative that's because I Positively want to win.  It's not going to change so it's best I find a forum that pissed off and upset as I am.

WTF maybe there are some posters who are employed by Mr. Gores and his incompetent ownership group and want your voice silenced. Things have not gone well for the Detroit Pistons since the day Chauncy Billups was traded which destroyed what was left of a real basketball team. That was a long time ago. Thousands of true blue Piston followers decided several years ago to stop punishing themselves and do not even read anything about the Pistons in the Newspapers. One friend of mine told me he attended a game two years ago and watched Andre Drummond do his pre game dance inside a circle. He couldn't believe any player would be dancing after his team got blown out two days before where the team was down by over 22 points after the first quarter. In that game, the same thing happened. The Pistons gave up easy layups because there was no Ben Wallace protecting the paint or any other player who really gave a crap. Anyone who is not skeptical of everything this ownership does should have their heads examined. Piston fans get to see Andre Drummond, Reggie Jackson, Blake Griffin, Jon Leuer and Langston Galloway this coming season. That should be the starting 5 based on salary. the rest of the chumps have no power or say in what goes on. Money talks and the coach always listens to the owner.

WTF wants to live for the moment when the Pistons have a chance for a title. Some of us have witnessed that actually happen. We all knew it wouldn't happen after watching Greg Monroe lumber back on defense. And most of us know that Reggie Jackson and his sidekick Andre Drummond have been no improvement from the countless players that the owners group has marched out to the hardwood each losing season we are suffered through. Many fans like me can accept watching a losing team if that team has some young talent. No small market team can win in today's game without great talent and work ethic. Small market teams have to lose big for several years and get lucky with top 3 picks to have any chance.

The Pistons have zero chance of being a really good team next season. We have no Seth Curry or Kevin Durant or a Labron James. All three of those players are leaders who make playing the game fun but demand everyone's full attention to detail. We have no leaders who even care about helping the younger players with the exception of Tolliver last season. Two years ago none of the highest paid players AD or RJ gave a rat's ass about helping anyone get better. Being that both of those players are not good two way players themselves I can understand why they didn't help the younger players. They are both still trying to figure out what SVG wanted them to do in their defensive rotation system. Now they will have to learn another system. Both will have their hands full because neither really care about being solid defenders or elite defenders. Young players highly respect older vets who know how to play defense. Every player comes into the league because they are way behind the vets relating to playing the right way in NBA rotation systems. Did AD ever take Ellenson aside and show him the ropes or advise him on what he was doing wrong. How could he? AD still doesn't care enough to learn how to defend the pick and roll the right way. He is lazy at times and opponents know he is lazy. No team wins without max effort by the highest paid players. We haven't seen that happen for many seasons. Somehow the Piston front office has been asleep at the wheel and every other team in the league knows about their incompetence.

If Blake Griffin doesn't demand that the owner bring in a new starting caliber point guard and he also shows that he can be a real leader, then the Pistons will be dull and boring just like last season and the season before. If Blake cannot convince AD to become a team orientated player instead of a player looking for his own stats, then we will know Blake is not a leader. AD needs to become an athletic paint and rim protector. He cannot allow opposing players to outsmart him in the closing moments of games and get rebounds he should be securing. It is a really big turn off to watch players you as a fan are pulling for get out smarted over and over. I really can't see how any new coach can make this roster much smarter. Either you have it or you don't. The NBA is the highest level according to the propaganda but I have seen much smarter players play at the high school level. They might not be as athletically gifted but they sure were much smarter players then several of the highest paid players on this Piston team. WTF don't drop off the forum. It shows me that you are thinking when you bring out observations or thoughts about what you don't like about what is going on in Piston land. Maybe some posters are excited about AD becoming a 3 point shooter. Keep on switching on the pick and roll AD to show how dumb you are on defense when you force Ish Smith to roll with the opposing team's center while you stand and rest at the free throw line. Less distance to travel back on defense yes I know that. Lag back and pull the Charlie V technique so you are fresh when you get that pass from RJ out beyond the 3 point line. That for sure will draw a lot of fans to the games. Insanity thrives with the Pistons.

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Sydney Lowe

Post  WTF on Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:40 pm

I like the Sidney Lowe hire
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My Stances Seem To Upset The Masses

Post  WTF on Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:18 am

No I need to move on not because I'm upset by anyone's comments but because the team doesn't meet my expectation and I'm going to voice my feelings on it period,   I've made it clear that all praise needs to be earned and I'm finding it real hard to praise these players for tiny accomplishments,  I've stated I don't care what Casey did in Toronto he's in Detroit now and he needs to prove himself here before I sing a single note of praise.

I've made it clear that I'm going to scrutinize every single detail top to bottom and bottom to top rather this team win a game or loses a game.  I'm not here to cheer for second place,  or cheer AD baby steps when he's already 2 year behind where he should be,  I don't have the patience for SJ to decide he needs to work on his shot,  I'm not putting a lick of faith in RJ being injury free or becoming smarter if he isn't injured.  Quietly BG contracts makes my stomach turn so I'm going to piss and moan when he doesn't show up big.   

I'm not going to sit quietly after a loss with a better luck next time attitude pointing out tiny positives.  You only do this when a team lays it on the line blood sweat and tears, did everything right only to come up short.  Until these players take losing seriously and start getting angry about it then it's hard to respect them.

If I'm Negative that's because I Positively want to win.  It's not going to change so it's best I find a forum that pissed off and upset as I am.
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Onwards; Wasted Resources?

Post  Sparma on Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:28 am

Wise, if you go, I'll also plan to go; I do hope you stay. Moving forward, I will need to decide whether or not dial involvement downwards. But really, that's always a decision for participants on an on-line forum to make. I actually was trying to do something good, which I appreciate Oracle noting, but it looks like nothing good's going to come from my confrontation so that I wish I could erase the whole thing.

Concerning resources, as I understand things, in principle we have two available resources beyond trades: a) the mid-level exception (estimated at 8.8 mil in one source), and b) a 7 mil trade exception, resulting from Boban being sent to the Clips.

We're over the salary cap, but 5 mil under the luxury level.

Stefanski conveys that we're not going over into the luxury tax unless a) we're doing well later in the season, or b) [something more murky about] there's a good deal available.

It sounds like that means that we'll leave close to 4 mil of the mid-level exception on the table (until later in the season, at least) as well as the 7 mil exception (that has a deadline during the season). Discouraging.

Practically speaking wasting resources (along with that 4.5 mil to Josh Smith) may mean not being able to resign Tolliver. He's no savior, but he is my favorite. Wise brought up not being very emotionally bonded with this team. I largely feel the same way, with the exception of Tolliver and with the new old dude about my age, Dwane Casey, an accomplished guy accompanied by major worries (eg, was it really an assistant who pushed Toronto to an innovative offensive system?) who has one more chance to pull off something really good.

Oracle wrote:Yes Don & Wise are negative a lot... so what, it doesn't bother me in the least! Ok, Don does go too far sometimes, and Wise can remind you of those people wishing the 50's would come back, but that's all part of having diverse views here.

Hell, if everyone agreed with me, that's when it's time to take a hike, or queue up the twilight zone & outer limits music  lol

Sparma, I see where you tried to do a good thing that backfired, just as you hoped it might not, so let's leave it at that and move on.

I'm mostly positive about the new management and how they're moving forward, even with the SVG handcuffs they have to deal with, hell, they may even get production out of Leuer, or at least make him look good enough to trade.

Wise, if either you or Sparma quit over this little thing, I'll personally find Lee357 and force you guys to listen to his stories for 10 hours straight, at which point your sanity will be seriously in question  lol
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Let's not start taking things the wrong way...

Post  Oracle on Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:18 am

Yes Don & Wise are negative a lot... so what, it doesn't bother me in the least! Ok, Don does go too far sometimes, and Wise can remind you of those people wishing the 50's would come back, but that's all part of having diverse views here.

Hell, if everyone agreed with me, that's when it's time to take a hike, or queue up the twilight zone & outer limits music  lol

Sparma, I see where you tried to do a good thing that backfired, just as you hoped it might not, so let's leave it at that and move on.

I'm mostly positive about the new management and how they're moving forward, even with the SVG handcuffs they have to deal with, hell, they may even get production out of Leuer, or at least make him look good enough to trade.

Wise, if either you or Sparma quit over this little thing, I'll personally find Lee357 and force you guys to listen to his stories for 10 hours straight, at which point your sanity will be seriously in question  lol
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You Stay and I'll Quit

Post  WTF on Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:32 am

This forum shouldn't be full of fluff but if so then maybe I need to refrain from posting and find one that's more equally balanced in opinions.  Sparma seem all you want to hear are good things about team without recognizing the things that are wrong.  This is what my dubious analogy was aimed at and not the team itself.  My not agreeing with the shared ideas concerning advance stats don't make me negative, not applauding Casey COY doesn't make me negative I'll cheer it when become COY for this franchise.  Me thinking these players are underachievers and not applying the level of focus to become winners do not make me negative.  

The first thing wrong with this whole discussion was lumping me in with Don because neither of us share the same exact thoughts nor do we express them in the same identical manner.  I don't trash players but I do call it like I see me not applauding for AD backing into an All Star spot or not agreeing that he's better than both Ben or Bill do not make me negative.  Yet you and others insisted that 90% of what I post is negative sorry it isn't but it appears to be a lot of soft skinned folks that think if I'm not following suit then I'm negative.   

Being a fan doesn't mean I need to be cheering at every phase of minimum progression my expectation of them is win a freaking championship nothing more, nothing less.  This also includes both the Lions and Wolverines that gets my undying support as a fan.  

How this went from going back and forth with Murph about his negative views about Morris and player meetings to Wise and Don are 90% negative I'll never understand.  I really didn't like being including at all but here I am.
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Wise

Post  Sparma on Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:24 pm

And we're surely not talking about battered spouses, as in your dubious analogy.

I wish I hadn't brought up the standard ugly babies example aimed at showing that truthful statements can not merely be negative but nasty. I don't see you as nasty, usually, but just as habitually negative. The friends analogy establishes that truthful statements at once can be negative.

Take my feedback for what it's worth, Wise. From my perspective, there's a flood of negativity emanating from you and Don. Why, I don't know. Some people are fueled by being habitually negative, and are able to face minimal consequences on the internet. What makes me question whether that applies to you is your undying loyalty to the Lions and clear affection for UM. I don't know you as a person, so what do I know.

I do have decisions to make as a poster on a fan forum though. I've enjoyed you as a poster over the years, even while becoming frustrated at times. When two of the, what, ten posters are overwhelmingly negative from my point of view, I need to figure out just how enjoyable that is for me as a fan and as a person, and what the best use of that quickly diminishing commodity of time is. I wanted to convey that to you and Don without rancor, and certainly understanding the frustrations of following a team that's been mediocre or worse for so long.

WTF wrote:
Sparma wrote:If your truthful statement isn't negative the first time (I'm inclined to think it is), surely it becomes negative when it makes up 90% of what you say about our mutual friend. So yes, it's entirely possible to be negative even when truthful, even to be nasty as when correctly stating: "Your baby is ugly."

I'll use the above statement but here's where it all fall apart is that I'm not talking about an ugly baby I'm talking about grown men making millions of dollars not living up those very large pay checks.  This alone eliminates them from any exclusion of criticism period.  Not sure why they should be excluded when the mailman can be crucified for untimely delivery of the mail but it's somehow unfair and negative to be critical of a NBA player or any other sports athlete.  We don't make exceptions for doctors,  and I'm sure no one was making excuses for you in your professional career.  


Sparma wrote:Secondly, I don't think you're right all the time, so you don't have the full extent of cover of the above. For instance, Wise says: "The answers are in the Golden Age's of this organization." I'd agree with this up to a point, when you mean focusing on teamwork, toughness, and defense.

There's no point beyond that so no need taking it further than meaning just that,  I'm not right all the time on a lot of things but I stand fast in the believe that this team lacks that focus.  But that also concludes that it results and a lot of the other things I say.   So again why in hell would I practice any level of diplomacy in regards to athletes who are grown ass men charge with the responsibility on winning NBA Titles and this also include coaches.  So you're D- analogy of having a common friend does not fit.   In fact you can't really use an real life analogy because we're talking apples and oranges.


Sparma wrote:Would this be a fair paraphrase?: Wise: I'm not being negative, but simply stating painful truths.

Very fair when it comes to people making the level of salary these players make.  Call it the new norm all you like but if paying more for less is now the new thing then I'm not on board.  You seem to imply that I'm wrong to expect the same thing from AD and others that I and most fans expected from players of the past making far less.  I think a large part of truth is keeping it real and in perspective but then again you think I should be okay with accepting 45 win and failing in the first round as meaningful progress while not thinking about the 25 million a season said alleged All Star is making.


Sparma wrote:Running Rip through 3 or 4 screens for a mid-range shot was a killer play back in the day, partly because you could run it against anyone; these days, it could still be a killer play, but you've have to make major offensive adjustments.


And you say this as if it's an issue or impossible to do?  Why is that Sparma?  Is it because we're getting less bang for the money spent on todays athletes?  But again you're telling me this shouldn't be a point of criticism when players fail to perform the simplest of task (like boxing out, setting screens, and so on)   
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