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First ZaZa, now Sammy: watch out GS, we're coming after ya!

Post  Sparma on Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:55 pm

We might start passing?

Good article at DBB about the Pistons recruiting the "analytics guru" Sammy Gelfand from Golden State. They give him [some] credit for GS aiming for at least 300 passes a night, providing the comparison with Detroit: "For reference, the Pistons’ averages in the Stan Van Gundy era (rank): 272.3 (26), 263.3 (29), 278.5 (24). 299 (17)."

[Weird, we did worst in passing those four years (29th) when we had the best record? Reggie Ball at its finest, I guess.]

They provide a link to a terrific story on Sammy in the New York Times by Marc Stein titled: "The Left Side of Steve Kerr's Brain."

NYT, June 7, 2018: "Golden State was last in the N.B.A. in passes per game, stuck in the 240s, when Kerr succeeded Mark Jackson after a first-round playoff exit to the Los Angeles Clippers in 2014. Kerr turned to Gelfand to help establish a new benchmark — 300 — which has evolved into the team’s magic number and a symbol of its culture."

He's the son of a physicist who taught at U. of Chicago.

I'd thought that the Pistons brought in a strong analytics crew with SVG, but they seemed to have very little effect, perhaps because we had a coach who in his gut just knew that he always knew best. That although one of the reasons I like SVG at the outset was because he attended analytics conferences.

So I'm not sure if we'll be finding out whether a top analytics mind can make a difference with the Pistons or whether Casey will prove to be receptive to the input of an analytics guy, in the way that Kerr was. Maybe some of both.


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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:31 pm

Oracle wrote:The full article is here: Detroit Pistons: Can Stanley Johnson fit in Dwane Casey’s new system?

SVG constantly refused to use the talents of the players he drafted and chose, he always tried to force them to do things outside of their core strengths. That's an example of the worst kind of coaching possible, IMO. To be fair, SVG did a lot of good things too, but his coaching was just horrible.


Here's a taste of that article,


Thanks for your comments Oracle. SVG and especially his picks for assistant coaches had no ability to improve anyone maybe with the exception of Moreland who sucked up everything the coaches offered him. Johnson was not alone in being set back by SVG's coaching style. KCP is another casualty in my opinion. Both Johnson and KCP needed to play in a more team friendly type of offense where there is a lot of player and ball movement. KCP stood like a statue for most of this stay in Detroit waiting for the ball beyond the baseline three point line. Only in Pope's last season did he get the ball on the wing where he got pretty good making 8-10 foot shots after taking two or three dribbles after having a screen set for him and the ball thrown his way with the correct timing.

I think that Casey will be much better at identifying players strengths and weaknesses and then setting specific roles for each player in the rotation. The coach will have to deal with Reggie Jackson's game which prevents player and ball movement that includes all five players. At times before Reggie's last injury, I saw him try at least to see the floor better and use both sides of the floor within the half court offense. I hope Casey has hired some young smart high energy assistant coaches with some good teaching skills who make the game more fun for our players. Under SVG it looked as if the pistons opponents were having fun playing basketball while our players were always tight while playing with not enough confidence. Casey has tried to lift the spirits of the returning core players and keeps on saying to shoot the open look and not worry about any consequences. He has specifically told Henry E. many times to just play hard and not worry. Pretty cool if Casey stays with that mindset and creates a more fun atmosphere like Steve Kerr has done at Golden State. You have to have to feel like basketball is fun or it just becomes a highly paid job for NBA players. They need to feel excited for the tip off even on the 2nd to back to back games. I haven't seen our Pistons have much fun for many years. The time as some and this coach might make it happen. SVG had a stranglehold on the young players and had very little patience with them while allowing the vets to get away with a lot of slacking. It is time for Stanley Johnson to play free like he did in high school and college and that goes with Bullock, Luke Kennard and the rookies.

I thought that I wouldn't say it as we await the new season but I am getting a bit excited that Casey will figure out how to get this group playing at a high level. If not this season then I predict Luke Kennard with be the Pistons starting point guard in the long run. We need a really smart player at that position for a change. He can do it if he can stay healthy. It might turn out that Luke will not have been a mistake when thinking of Utah's great young point guard Mitchell. Maybe Kennard can be the next John Stockton. Read some stuff about him as to how he played both football and basketball as a high school kid. He sounds a lot like Stanley Johnson who won 4 State Championships while playing every position during that stint. Smart players win. It is time Piston management makes their future plans finding the smarted and most capable future stars. Please do I beg this management team do not give up any more draft picks.

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Why Not

Post  WTF on Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:26 pm

Oracle wrote:Wise, I wanted Melo instead of Darko, but that ship has sailed for me now. I can't see this team adding a ball dominant SF with his diminished skills. I saw him play a few games last season, and while he was deferring a bit, he's not the Melo we used to know. So IMO, I'd say no to that move unless he would come off the bench at a really low price, and that isn't happening.

Of course he's not the same Melo but I'm of the belief he's better than anything we currently have at SF.  The point I was making here is that we shouldn't always conclude things are impossible thus some sort of effort should always be made.  

Who's to say for certain without trying that we can't obtain him just in the manner you suggested (cheap and coming off the bench) especially if he declined as much as you're suggesting.  How much of the old version of Melo do we need I'm sure he's good for a consistent 15 points and an occasional 20 points in a pinch.   He still enough of a threat to be on the floor with BG and AD so why we're making claim that Jose and Za Za are efficient veteran leadership than what would a Melo or Melo type be and again why would conclude obtaining such is impossible.   

Make take is once OKC buys him out we should at least ask and if he bits then look for a way to make it happen and stop saying what we can't do.
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This is my gripe with SVG: Example Stanley Johnson

Post  Oracle on Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:49 pm

The full article is here: Detroit Pistons: Can Stanley Johnson fit in Dwane Casey’s new system?

SVG constantly refused to use the talents of the players he drafted and chose, he always tried to force them to do things outside of their core strengths. That's an example of the worst kind of coaching possible, IMO. To be fair, SVG did a lot of good things too, but his coaching was just horrible.


Here's a taste of that article,
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Murph: Brown & Thomas

Post  Oracle on Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:37 pm

Some things don't translate to the NBA, but two things tend to translate very well... strength and defense!
https://pistonpowered.com/2018/07/12/detroit-pistons-summer-league-bruce-brown-shines/ wrote:Bruce Brown was the star of the game, finishing with a remarkable 15 points, 11 rebounds, six assists, five steals, and a block. He also led the team with 32 minutes.
I highly suggest that you guys look at that article and closely watch the videos because they're impressive. I especially like the one where both Thomas & Brown team up to stop penetration on the perimeter, switching and harassing until they get what they want, a steal and a fast break. Shades of the Pit Bulls, this poster can't wait until they get half a season under their belts, these cats are ready to go!

But this was the Bruce Brown show, and he had the full skill set on display. His defense was stellar, but he also has a powerful body and he knows how to use it to bully for scores, absorb contact and still finish... damn this kid has potential.

Second round picks on steroids, IMO!
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Brown

Post  Murph on Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:00 am

If last night's game is any indication, Bruce Brown is going to be a special player.  Talk about filling up the stat sheet.  Brown had 15 points, 11 rebounds, 6 assists and 5 steals.  

I only watched the 4th quarter of last night's game, but in the time I watched, Brown dominated the game. He was all over the floor.  And his handles are good enough to play point.


Henry Ellenson was his usual, dorky self.  I had to laugh.  Remember when Don use to make fun of the way Charlie Villanueva ran down the court?  Don would make fun of the way Villanueva ran with his heals flying out behind him.  Ellenson looks just as awkward when he runs.  Henry isn't much of an athlete.


BallinD...Drummond working with Garnett can only be great news.  Hopefully some of Garnett's meanness will rub off on AD.  I love Andre, but at times, he's too nice for the NBA.
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Wise, Don & Ballin

Post  Oracle on Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:57 pm

Wise, I wanted Melo instead of Darko, but that ship has sailed for me now. I can't see this team adding a ball dominant SF with his diminished skills. I saw him play a few games last season, and while he was deferring a bit, he's not the Melo we used to know. So IMO, I'd say no to that move unless he would come off the bench at a really low price, and that isn't happening.

Don, I won't disagree with your post too much, in fact, I hope a lot of it comes true. SVG has left a trail of young players stained by his lack of faith in them and his best attempts to destroy their confidence. I know he probably didn't think he was doing that, but he did and that's all that matters. If we don't develop these guys, our future will be very dim.

Ballin, that's the best news I've seen in a LONG time! KG is one of the best defensive bigs in recent memory, in fact, both him and Sheed were bigs that could shut you down and still score 30 points on you. I love this on two levels, 

1. That they even reached out to KG. That tells me a lot about how Casey thinks and what his commitment to developing, not only the very young, but anybody else that has a hole in their game. 
2. It also tells me that Drummond knows that to reach his full potential he has to get a lot better at his craft. I've always believed that Drummond wanted to be great.

This reminds me of the way I interact with my kids when it comes to school and grades. I tell them that I can accept ANY grade they get, as long as they're studying hard and making every effort to do the right thing, then I'll live with whatever grade they get... Same with the Pistons, I love the direction change from SVG.
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New Workout Partner for Dre

Post  BallinD on Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:33 pm

Read a recent article on "Drummond Gives Thumbs Up to Casey Hire," and a tidbit caught my eye regarding a training partner in none other than KG, Kevin Garnett.

I find this promising and exciting, especially as Dre said Casey arranged him to work with KG. I advocated on the forum for KG to train with Dre last year and it appears my wish has come true.

"I'm about to work out with Kevin Garnett this week coming up," Dre said. "He (Casey) set that up for me."

Dre is not by any means a finished product, and finally we have a FO/Coach who gets it. facepalm

KG + Dre = added Toughness, Aggression around the basket, Defensive rotations, Read and React skills. Face up jumper, Preparation, Intensity maybe.

I see Dre as now in position to be more motivated to achieve greatness and his potential. He is no longer the best Big on the team, and I believe Blake's Bully Ball approach, fundamentals of footwork and offensive skillset, will help motivate Dre and now with KG in the mix, he could take another big stepup this year. We will see.


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Point guard position for Pistons is extremely weak regardless of what the spin Doctors publish - Kennard needs to start at point guard this fall

Post  cool breeze on Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:28 pm

I am not upset that Luke could not play in the summer league games. I ended up attending one game in Las Vegas on our way on vacation to Tahoe. Summer league games are messy. Not sure if anyone can tell much about a lot of the players who are all trying too hard to show they belong in the NBA. For established players like Kennard I see a big downside when management allows them to compete in the summer league setting. A lot of players are out of control which can lead to injuries. Maybe players like Johnson with his wide body can play with little chance of injury for two summers in this setting but I for one am glad that Kennard did not play. His job is to come into training camp with better ball handling skills. He already had great skills in that area last season but if he can show the coach that he can play defense better than Jackson or Smith ( that is a given) and can show how clever he is in the passing game yet still be able to drive and shoot with either hand as well as hit the 3 ball, Kennard can transform this Piston team into a winner. There is no way a player like Reggie Jackson can change his game. He needs to fight for playing time at the 2 guard or become the Piston's point guard off the bench doing the Vinny Johnson thing. But Smith could beat Reggie out in the long run for the back up role at PG. Come in to training camp ready to claim the starting point guard position Luke!

Some posters appear to have thrown in the towel so to speak relating to Henry Ellenson's future with the Pistons. What I saw in the one summer league game told me a different story. Henry is big and strong. He runs the court smoothy and seems very athletic. His jump shot technique looks good and he has the ability to drive to the hoop. I think Henry is going to greatly benefit from this new coaching staff. Finally he is going to receive some real expert help from the assistants relating to what he needs to improve on with his defense. This man is extremely young and inexperienced thanks to SVG and his bogus coaching staff. I strongly disagree with Oracle on his comments about Ellenson vs Leuer. Unless Jon Leuer has gained a lot of weight and improved 50% on both offense and defense, he is of no use as a back up center. Two seasons ago when SVG tried to showcase Leuer at both center and power forward, Leuer started out OK at power forward at times but as the season wore on his got much worse especially in the last game against Orlando where he played both power forward and center and couldn't guard any of the Orlando players he was matched up with in that game. I think he played about 30 minutes and looked like Jason Maxiell in the playoffs against Cleveland many years ago. He was the weakest Piston player on the floor in the last game of the year. Now he has had one year off to mend his injury. Maybe he has bulked up and improved his outside shooting touch. But if I were the head coach, I would want to feature Henry Ellenson. If not and Henry is still not ready for the big time, then I hope our new coach has the brains to send Ellenson down to the G League for a lot of games. He needs to play. His timing was way off in the summer league games. You only get proper timing when you play in real games. SVG and his staff set Ellenson back one complete season. No smart coach can sit a young big man on the end of the bench for two years and not have an extremely negative effect on that player's career. Keep the faith Henry. I see Ellenson as a big time scorer in the future. It might take another two years or more but so what? Ellenson is extremely young with very little experience with freaky potential. Leuer has never been a key player and was not in the rotation at Phoenix when Nit wit SVG offered Jon the $10M/y contract for 4 years. Incredible stuff SVG. He must have been binge eating donuts with his buddy Mr. B. when that deal went down.

Go Pistons! Luke Kennard bring your best stuff and hope the new coach has an objective mind where contracts do not rule who plays. We need a high IQ player occupying the point guard position. I know that is not what AD wants to hear. Yes I know AD and RJ are together attached at the hip. This new coach needs to show he is the boss not the pre game dancer.

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Melo Fello Hows That For Veteran Leadership.

Post  WTF on Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:37 pm

You want to impress me get Melo here to play with BG and AD and don't say it can't happen because any and everything is possible if the minds are put to it to get/convince Melo to try it for a season.   

Just be creative part of the problem is that everyone rather convince themselves we're stuck in our current situation and should make the best of it.  But why is it that other franchises always seem to pull the impossible but we can't.  I'm not just talking about the glamour teams but a lot of teams.  When OKC buys him out we should be right there in the Melo mix. 

BTW what the hell is BG at 40 million a season? Certainly not a damn rookie...… I keep hearing the words veteran leadership in signing Jose and Zaza I mean really shouldn't this be BG job or should we pay Jose and Zaza 40 mil instead.
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Murph. DX, Youngsters & Commentary

Post  Oracle on Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:07 pm

@Murph - Thanks for the refresher on Zaza. IMO, the addition of Zaza and Calderon are designed to bring in veteran experience to balance the mostly younger guys. After we got to the playoffs, SVG thought we didn't need the vets as much, but they did. Successful teams have a balance of vets, youngsters and guys in or approaching their prime.

@DX - Yes, we let some good players get away, but of the recent moves, I think letting Harris get away was pretty big. KCP was going to cost too much to stay, but imagine a lineup of Drummond, Blake and Harris at SF! I'd pay money to see that one, but I'm very hopeful that Stanley will step up.

I hear you on Ellenson, I haven't given up, but he does need to deliver at least the minimum level of defense, or no coach can justify giving him major minutes. If his guy is scoring double what he gives, we're fighting a losing battle. You read my mind when you said he was shaking off the SVG effect. Lack of playing time, lack of getting any confidence from the coach will make a young player start to doubt himself. It's going to take some work, but he still has a chance to get there.

Unfortunately, I don't think he has a ghost of a chance to beat out Leuer. If Leuer(who's 100% healthy now) plays up to his level of ability, his experience will trump whatever Ellenson has. The good news is that Ellenson will still have a good chance for minutes because Leuer will also get minutes at center, and both could potentially play together depending on match ups.

Youngsters: I'm loving the talent we have in the pipeline(no particular order)!
1. Kennard:  He was better at more things than I ever thought he could be, and IMO, he has virtually unlimited upside. The word is that he has added an inch in height, which will serve him well whatever position he plays.
2. Stanley: Ok, he's borderline youngster, but he ready to break out this year. limit the damn 3 pointers, use that body and bully your arse to the basket. If you must take 3's, do it from the side, where you have greater success. I have it on good authority that guys can score 20 ppg, just shooting 2's and getting to the line Smile
3. Ellenson: Nothing to say but it's put up or shut up this year for a guy not drafted high enough to keep around if he doesn't produce.
4. Pit Bulls: Yes DX, they're both keepers, but it's Khyri Thomas that is impressing me the most! The kid is just smoother and more polished on both sides of the ball than you see from the normal rookie. Bruce Brown is no slouch either, but he does appear to need more work before he's ready, although I feel bad saying that because I want his defense and toughness out there.

Commentary: This is going to be a great season for the Pistons, but not an easy one. The east isn't as weak as many would have you believe. The east is very competitive with the west once you get past the super teams, and it's going to be a dog fight for higher seeding.

This is where upping the defense starts to pay dividends. While we defended well last year, we defended poorly when it counted. Casey's plan is sound, balance the offense and defense, and put in the stoppers when it matters most to hold a lead. Last season, we didn't have a problem getting leads, but we were lousy at holding them... that has to change!
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Early morning rambles

Post  deusXango on Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:09 pm

Damn shame to see a young player, that was developing swiftly, be let go by a team that couldn't/didn't make the playoffs. This is what happens when "win now" is the order of the day. Good players, with potential, are let go and when we look back up the road we've come down we see Khris Middleton's, Spencer Dinwiddie's, Aaron Afflalo's, and Tobias Harris's, (Yeah I'm glad to have Griffin, but Harris and a lottery pick?) to name a few; I have a feeling that Eric Moreland's name will be added to the list of unnecessary Pistons "throwaways." Best of luck big fella.

Am I the only one who realize that two of our more dependable high energy guys, Tolliver and Moreland, are gone? Just wondering.

Thanks Murph for the knowledgeable breakdown on Zaza, I really had not paid any attention to the progression of his career, and the comparison to Rick Mahorn has me sold on this guy coming in! Mahorn is one of my all time favorite Pistons and to this day I can't understand how a starter, on a championship team, not be one of the top 8 protected players for an expansion draft. Any way welcome Zaza Pachulia, to the Detroit Pistons.

The way things are shaping up, if you trust what you see in Summer League, there's a place for our second rounders; pit bulls, pit bulls, pit bulls! No matter who comes off the bench with them, Johnson or Robinson, our perimeter defense will be something to see on that second unit. I have faith that Coach Casey can develop something that we all will be satisfied with.

Henry Ellenson...I'm not giving up on this kid, he seems to be shaking off the ignoble SVG effect gradually, and will be quite a player for us (just stop that "no defense" sh!t, everybody that plays/contributes to contending teams doesn't play stellar defense) and I'm still for dropping Jon Leuer and his overpriced contract, if we can. There was something wrong with this guy before that ankle...his head was broken if you guys remember. Like Leuer, I gotta go.
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Zaza

Post  Murph on Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:27 am

I've always liked Zaza and players like Zaza. Throughout his career, he has gotten the absolute most out of a limited skill set. He is a tough as nails interior defender, he has 2 NBA Championships, and talk about Pistons DNA, he reminds me of Ricky Mahorn with his tough, crafty, borderline dirty play. He was a good choice to back-up Drummond.


I do feel badly for Moreland however. He did everything right...he played outstanding D, rebounded and hustled his ass off...and he still wasn't re-signed. Hopefully, he'll get picked up by another NBA team, and given a shot at some playing time. As long as he's given the opportunity, I have no doubt he can contribute in the NBA for years to come.
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Don

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:46 pm

Don wrote:That headline sounds strong and I am sure I will get some complaints but Eric was one of the players who impressed me with his all out energy and willingness to work hard on the hardwood.
Don, I too appreciated Moreland's energy and hard work effort, I just wish you were consistent in appreciating that from players.

KCP did all of that and more, but got little appreciation from you.

Pistons Defensive rating without KCP104.8 which placed them as the 11th best team
Pistons Defensive rating with KCP: 105.3 which placed them as the 11th best team

The Pistons stayed basically the same, getting very slightly better, but maintaining their position in the league.

I attribute that to Bradley coming in and delivering, and Stanley getting even better. However, as Don has always stated, a good player should make the people around them better.

Lakers Defensive rating without KCP110.6 which placed them DEAD LAST IN THE LEAGUE(30th)
Lakers Defensive rating with KCP105.6 which placed them as the 12th best team

Was KCP the only factor? No, but the Lakers say it was KCP that helped instill defense into the young guns, and Walton played KCP like SVG did.

Stats hereTeams General Defense
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Eric Moreland gets screwed along with Piston fans with another mistake made by Piston management

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:27 pm

That headline sounds strong and I am sure I will get some complaints but Eric was one of the players who impressed me with his all out energy and willingness to work hard on the hardwood. He is fundamentally sound on defense and extremely quick for a big guy. We get in return a player who is yet another weak slow reacting big man who wore out his welcome on other NBA teams for his lack of energy and quickness. Moreland was well liked by his Piston teammates because he was selfless and of course was a player who helped others in the paint. We currently have no player with the exception of Stanley Johnson who is a help defender that plays hard on every possession.

As for the summer league games, I saw some familiar players who stood out that of course Piston management ignored and could have signed all of them. First off I cannot believe that Simmons was not picked up by the Pistons last summer. He is going to be a outstanding NBA player at the point guard position eventually. Should have started at Arizona in his freshman year if not for Sean Miller's love affair for his small point guard favorite who always got his ass beat in the NCAA tournament. Simmons can play smart and shoot the lights out. The other player that I know about his Alonzo Trier who was not drafted. That was incredible and for the Pistons who have no point guards worth a crap not to jump at the chance of getting him, is insane. Whenever I watch players for one, two or three seasons in college and see that they are leaders, play makers in crunch time and make huge shots to win championships when being the focus of opposing defenses, I know that they will make it in the NBA eventually unless they suffer injuries. Trier was a sure thing to make a rotation for the Pistons because of his outside shooting ability in real games. He will not face the type of defense he faced in the PAC12 for the last two seasons. He will not have the NCAA breathing down his neck for bogus drug charges. He has never done anything wrong intentionally in his life. How the NCAA smeared his reputation is unforgivable. If you had him as your child and had to watch what happened and how he handled adversity, you would be proud.

I see the Pistons draftees as hard working tough minded players who need development. It looks like the Pistons have a really good head coach who will properly develop their abilities. That is the one positive I wish to offer the forum. We have a solid coach and all the players should respond in a much more positive way this next season. Good luck Eric Moreland. I will miss you along with all of your teammates from last season. Your replacement cannot fill the need on the defensive end when AD leaves the court. AD actually would come back in games after watching how hard Moreland played and copy his effort. What will AD do not to inspire him after watching his replacement plod down the court a day late and a dollar short?

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Holy Crap

Post  BallinD on Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:49 pm

Brook Lopez, a stud, signed with the Bucks, and we got Zaza, the "dirty" dancer. It should be an interesting season. I do have to say that Stefanski et al have been active in the "win now" mode.

SL games scare me, though I do like the look of Kyrie. Ellensen is down-right scary. Can't guard anyone and cannot shoot worth shiznit. Looks like SJ out there jacking jumpers. what is he, like 3 for 20 from three. Hope it is just his new shooting form that is screwing up the works. He seems to be rushing and short-arming his shots; they are consistently flat with almost no arc. He looks like the youngest rookie on the court, but this is what he needs PT to make mistakes and learn from them. Wish we could get Luke some burn too, but it is what it is.



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ZaZa/ Moreland

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:18 pm

Oracle: "Looks like Moreland is toast, Pistons sign Zaza to  2.4M deal. I haven't paid much attention to Zaza lately and while I'm sure he's an upgrade from Moreland, I don't know how much of an upgrade he is."

Looks like we're well and truly aiming to squeeze every ounce of production out of this year's group (or could the 300 thou savings been sufficient justification)?

You all know that I thought more highly of Boban than of Eric as back up C, but, that said, I think Moreland did plenty to have earned another shot as 3rd center on an NBA roster. Hard worker, seemed to have a good, team-oriented, attitude. Kelser kept seeing some improvement offensively. Probably so. Best wishes to Moreland!
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Brown et al...

Post  Oracle on Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:31 pm

Murph, Brown looked really good, and he was matched up against bigger players more then he should have been, but did pretty well. You do point out a strange situation where we have way too many SG's and we're weak on real PG's.

I hate to say it, but it appears that SVG was right about Ellenson. We don't get to see the practices, and we're all wondering why Ellenson isn't playing, well, now we know.

He played better in this last game, but he is severely being out played by ROOKIES that have never suited up in the NBA, which is likely why SVG kept going to Leuer while we complained.

BTW, Thomas has surprised me with his 3 point shot. He doesn't shoot a lot of them, but he's very efficient, his numbers in the last game were 60% from deep and 45% overall, I like his instincts.

This Larry Drew II kid has looked pretty good at PG sometimes, I'm going to keep an eye on him.

Looks like Moreland is toast, Pistons sign Zaza to  2.4M deal. I haven't paid much attention to Zaza lately and while I'm sure he's an upgrade from Moreland, I don't know how much of an upgrade he is.
Murph wrote:I've been mildly impressed with Bruce Brown in the summer league games.  He seems like a very solid 2nd round pick, with a big, positive personality.  I'm just not sure what position he will fill.  Will he be our 4th string PG, or our 5th string SG, or maybe our 3rd string SF?

With Ellenson's disappointing play in summer league, I'm beginning to think we are running out of ways to improve our roster.  It's beginning to look as if Leuer is going to be about our only viable option at reserve PF, which means the Pistons can't really trade him.
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Brown

Post  Murph on Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:43 am

I've been mildly impressed with Bruce Brown in the summer league games. He seems like a very solid 2nd round pick, with a big, positive personality. I'm just not sure what position he will fill. Will he be our 4th string PG, or our 5th string SG, or maybe our 3rd string SF?

With Ellenson's disappointing play in summer league, I'm beginning to think we are running out of ways to improve our roster. It's beginning to look as if Leuer is going to be about our only viable option at reserve PF, which means the Pistons can't really trade him.
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Rut Row

Post  Murph on Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:57 am

Man, I could only watch a little of that summer league game last night, because it was so bad. But Henry Ellenson was beyond just bad...he was scary bad...horrible. He couldn't come close to guarding summer league players, and he's a 3 year NBA vet. He was literally one of the worst players on the floor.

We've all been assuming that now that Tolliver is gone, we would try and trade Leuer, and then Ellenson would step up to play reserve PF, behind Griffin. Well, we better change the plan...and fast. We are going to miss Tolliver in a huge way.

Ellenson can't guard anyone. How in the world was this guy an 18th pick???

We had better hang onto Leuer, not because he's good, but because he's at least a bad NBA player, as opposed to Ellenson who is a horrible summer league player.

And pick up Moreland's option, for crying out loud!
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NBA.Com picks top playoff teams in the west and east

Post  Oracle on Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:35 am

BTW, Pistons picked to be in playoffs in the east: GameTime: Caron's Power Poll
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Pistons lose 90-63, but...

Post  Oracle on Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:04 am

If you watched the game, it wasn't as close as the score indicated... it was much worse!

The Bucks looked bigger faster and more importantly COACHED! They ran plays and exploited mismatches all night long.

Ellenson looked like crap defensively, and was constantly abused so much it got embarrassing.

However, the biggest issue to me was that the Pistons appeared to have no coaching at all, just throw the ball up and do whatever you want.

Just the first game, but a tad disturbing.
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The SVG Effect

Post  WTF on Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:37 pm

Before Kennard even played his first NBA game base solely on his videos from both college and H.S I thought in the back of my mind this kid could probably be an effect PG.   His quickness never looked like an issue and his ball handling was simple and effective for the most part tons of potential here but I also knew SVG would manage to screw it up.   For that reason one should consider tossing out all of Kennard's rookie season IMO.

We weren't looking at a player confused about what he needed to do but a player that was confused by what a coach was asking him to do.  There's is a difference my suggestion is to go back to all Kennard's pre-draft videos and perhaps even from summer league and this kid had nothing but special and unique written all over him.  

If I was coach I would have been trying to figure out if I could use him at PG last season and in fact I would have been trying to play him at three position PG, SG and SF.   We might not call him a true PG but he most certainly would have been the best Combo player we could have.
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Kennard as PG?

Post  Sparma on Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:32 pm

I'm basically with Murph on this one.

It's worth experimenting with him at PG to see if he can give you a few quality minutes situationally, but I really, really doubt that he could become a quality PG for extensive stretches, let alone full-time. I expect him to improve from last year, but watching him he got himself into tight spots, being crowded on the ball, again and again, essentially because he's not quick enough, doesn't have outstanding handles, and needs to be prompted (by SVG) to act quickly.

As mentioned before, Calderon doesn't have NBA speed, quickness, size, or strength. Yet he's been quite a good NBA PG (setting D aside). He's the exception, not the pattern that Kennard can readily imitate! He's got such extraordinary court vision, passing skills, ability to read the D, and sense of timing, that he's been able to flourish in spite of his limitations. Kennard does share one extraordinary skill with him: shooting.

Billups? One dif there is that Chauncey was tremendously strong for his size, compensating in part for lack of quickness. Not so with Kennard, even if I'm hoping he'll be one to hit the weight room hard.

I'm all for diminishing Reggie J's role (in part because I think limited minutes and tight expectations would lift his game), so experiment away with Kennard (but not this summer, unfortunately). My expectations would be pretty low though. But, with Murph, I'm receptive to being proven wrong.

Murph wrote:DX...good post.  

DX and Wise...I'll keep an open mind on Kennard as a PG.  It's too bad Kennard isn't playing in the summer league to showcase his PG skills.  Bring back Arnie Kanter.

deusXango wrote:Does anyone remember how quick and athletic John Stockton (HOFer) was? What about Steve Nash (2X MVP winner)? Both had deadly outside shots and were extremely smart and selfless, that I remember, and clever with the ball...didn't pound the air out of it before leaving a teammate out on a cliff, with a late shot clock pass. Handles are overrated unless your objective is to be a hog. Pass the rock, don't hold it! A 6' 6" PG has so many advantages when he's highly intelligent, can see the floor, and play a "team first," not "me first" brand of basketball. I think this is what the current brain trust see in Kennard, and are willing to make a committed investment in. The team doesn't have a defensive demon playing PG now, it also doesn't have a thinking PG who makes those on the floor with him better. IMHO Kennard has what it takes to be a greater weapon as a PG than merely a 40% 3 point shooter...we've got that in Bullock and maybe others (Thomas), but how many potential floor generals do we have? It's easier for an athlete to develop handles than grow a brain. If he's clever enough with the ball (not letting it stick in his hands) developing handles will come easier.

PG's that I railed against in Detroit, but weren't real team leaders, were Lindsey Hunter (quick, athletic, with handles, but dumb as a box of rocks.) Shooting? Couldn't hit a mule in the ass with a bass fiddle. Rodney Stuckey (big and strong was how he was billed, but sorely lacked leadership skills) who Fat Joe had too much "man love" for. Brandon Jennings, who had too much "me" in his game. He was quick and gifted with awesome handles, could see the floor, but was more interested in being a volume scorer; that's not how you lead a team unless you're Allen Iverson. Speaking of Iverson, when he came here he was too old and his presence alone destroyed one of the great Pistons backcourts and started our downward spiral. Reggie Jackson. What can I say that hasn't been seen by all? The poster child for selfishness! Give Kennard a chance. Is it a big mystery why we loved Isiah Thomas and Chauncey Billups so much? Smart and cagey.

Murph, I'm in agreement with you that Calderon is great, for one year, and Eric Moreland is invaluable as a backup center for us. One of the positives SVG left behind was the development of a high energy, low priced big man. He's a keeper!
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Kennard

Post  Oracle on Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:00 pm

IMO, it's not "If" he can play the PG position, it's which position is best for him to play.

We lose what he's really good at if he plays PG, and there are so many better options out there than forcing Kennard to be the PG.

I think it's a good idea to test him playing PG because it's always smart to be prepared, but converting him to a PG forever, is a huge mistake, IMO.
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