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Pistons guards

Post  deusXango on Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:45 pm

SG: Kentavious Caldwell-Pope and F@ckin' Jodie Meeks, a shooter and a scorer, both play better than adequate defense....upgrade over last year.
PG: Payton Siva, the only true floor general who plays PG exclusively, smart, team oriented, and the glue to pacing when needed....upgrade over last year.
Combos: Spencer Dinwiddie and Nick Johnson, both can play PG/SG, are smart, excellent ball handlers and passers....Johnson is an awesome defender and super athlete, Dinwiddie is extremely cagey with the ball, highly efficient scorer, and at 6' 6" a nightmare at the point....upgrade over last year.

Let's see what it takes to obtain Nick Johnson before the world knows just how good this guy is, and let's be cautious with bringing Mr. Dinwiddie back too soon; IMHO they'll be the best of our guards going forward.

Let's not dump Siva and be patient with KCP....let's all pull for F@ckin' Jodie Meeks to be all he can be for us.

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IMO, Singler is a starter some day...

Post  Oracle on Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:25 pm

But that day isn't today!

Singler is still a very young player learning his craft, so I have no problem saying we need more experience in a starting SF!

One day he'll be starting material, and there's no shame in knowing that it just isn't right now!

My problem is that people want to trade a promising young player for no good reason! If it turns out that he's demanded in a trade to get us something good, so be it, but to just come out and want to trade a good player on a rookie contract is crazy!
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Don, that's a critical point!!!

Post  Oracle on Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:22 pm

Don wrote:I keep hoping for a sign and trade with Phoenix who currently have 4 point guards. They want a guy like Monroe but I am not sure the Suns smart GM would want to pay Monroe what he wants.


This could be a problem for Monroe even if he found a team that wants to do a S&T... just what would they want him signed for?

Of course he'll jump at the max, but right now, it appears that nobody wants to give him the max, although as time moves on, somebody may cave when he's the biggest name left on the board!

But Wise is right, Monroe is hardly worth the max, but that doesn't mean that he won't get it!


Last edited by Oracle on Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Don, let me s'plain

Post  deusXango on Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:21 pm

cool breeze wrote:
deusXango wrote:Any thoughts on Evan Turner? Say a two year deal with the second year a team option? Not pro or con but, searching for a solution at SF.

Stones, someone has offered Hayward a handsome deal, someone has offered Parsons a handsome deal, both of these players have one thing in common with Monroe; they're all RFA. If in fact the premium is on big men, why hasn't that "someone" surfaced with that max offer for Monroe? Oh, Hayward and Parsons are SF's. I wouldn't worry about Detroit getting screwed brother.
I am not getting this post dX. Our problem is POINT GUARD. Last season the weakness was not small forward but both guard positions. No guard could stop dribble penetration well. We still have two horrible point guards under contract. Arn't you worried about that dX? Do you know something that I don't know about some trade involving Bynum and Jennings? No team can win with those point guards. Singler is going to have a break out year. Last year he was a solid small forward on both ends. I am sure that Meeks can also play small forward and Smith most likely will get some minutes there just to keep him happy. On other thought involves our front court. I am worried about who will be able to play defense at the center and power forward positions. Last season both Monroe and Drummond were horrible. Smith is the only capable defender in the front court. The new pick up is just a guy who can give some hard fouls for a few minutes. Perhaps the small forward and shooting guard positions will be the Pistons only strong positions this year with the addition of Meeks and KCP getting better. 

I keep hoping for a sign and trade with Phoenix who currently have 4 point guards. They want a guy like Monroe but I am not sure the Suns smart GM would want to pay Monroe what he wants.

Don, I get it that you're Singler's #1 fan and you fully expect no one but him to start at SF but, it wouldn't hurt to have veteran competition and backup at that position, would it? I know that PG, as things stand now, is the weakest link on the team and regrettably there's nothing that can be done....Joe's curse is Knight and Middleton for Jennings; I don't think we can trade Jennings until his contract is expiring and the only way to rid ourselves of Bynum is a buyout. I forget who mentioned it earlier today that a Bynum for Snell trade would work out great for both teams but, the sticking point is Thibs is a lot like you Don, he don't want any lazy, half assed defenders on his team and that's what Bynum is. Was it you Sebastian?

My solution for starting PG, as things stand now, would be Siva, but talk is, he may not make the team! Hopefully SVG and his team see things in a realistic light and keep Siva. In case you missed my earlier posts about my dream guard corps; KCP, Nick Johnson, Payton Siva, Spencer Dinwiddie, and F@ckin' Jodie Meeks. They may not be all world in the eyes of some but, they represent a hell of a start and 3X's better than what we went to war with last year.
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That's true!

Post  Oracle on Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:15 pm

Sebastian wrote:
cool breeze wrote:
deusXango wrote:Any thoughts on Evan Turner? Say a two year deal with the second year a team option? Not pro or con but, searching for a solution at SF.

Stones, someone has offered Hayward a handsome deal, someone has offered Parsons a handsome deal, both of these players have one thing in common with Monroe; they're all RFA. If in fact the premium is on big men, why hasn't that "someone" surfaced with that max offer for Monroe? Oh, Hayward and Parsons are SF's. I wouldn't worry about Detroit getting screwed brother.
I am not getting this post dX. Our problem is POINT GUARD. Last season the weakness was not small forward but both guard positions. No guard could stop dribble penetration well. We still have two horrible point guards under contract. Arn't you worried about that dX? Do you know something that I don't know about some trade involving Bynum and Jennings? No team can win with those point guards. Singler is going to have a break out year. Last year he was a solid small forward on both ends. I am sure that Meeks can also play small forward and Smith most likely will get some minutes there just to keep him happy. On other thought involves our front court. I am worried about who will be able to play defense at the center and power forward positions. Last season both Monroe and Drummond were horrible. Smith is the only capable defender in the front court. The new pick up is just a guy who can give some hard fouls for a few minutes. Perhaps the small forward and shooting guard positions will be the Pistons only strong positions this year with the addition of Meeks and KCP getting better. 

I keep hoping for a sign and trade with Phoenix who currently have 4 point guards. They want a guy like Monroe but I am not sure the Suns smart GM would want to pay Monroe what he wants.

cool breeze wrote: I am sure that Meeks can also play small forward and Smith most likely will get some minutes there just to keep him happy.

I know you guys are happy to have Meeks on OUR roster, but there is no way in hell that F@ckin' Jodie Meeks can play a second at the SF position.

Don, Meeks is shaky at SG, let alone SF, he's 6'3, and if I see him at SF, I'll drop a load at center court  lol  lol  lol
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cool breeze, you can't be serious, man ...

Post  Sebastian on Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:06 pm

cool breeze wrote:
deusXango wrote:Any thoughts on Evan Turner? Say a two year deal with the second year a team option? Not pro or con but, searching for a solution at SF.

Stones, someone has offered Hayward a handsome deal, someone has offered Parsons a handsome deal, both of these players have one thing in common with Monroe; they're all RFA. If in fact the premium is on big men, why hasn't that "someone" surfaced with that max offer for Monroe? Oh, Hayward and Parsons are SF's. I wouldn't worry about Detroit getting screwed brother.
I am not getting this post dX. Our problem is POINT GUARD. Last season the weakness was not small forward but both guard positions. No guard could stop dribble penetration well. We still have two horrible point guards under contract. Arn't you worried about that dX? Do you know something that I don't know about some trade involving Bynum and Jennings? No team can win with those point guards. Singler is going to have a break out year. Last year he was a solid small forward on both ends. I am sure that Meeks can also play small forward and Smith most likely will get some minutes there just to keep him happy. On other thought involves our front court. I am worried about who will be able to play defense at the center and power forward positions. Last season both Monroe and Drummond were horrible. Smith is the only capable defender in the front court. The new pick up is just a guy who can give some hard fouls for a few minutes. Perhaps the small forward and shooting guard positions will be the Pistons only strong positions this year with the addition of Meeks and KCP getting better. 

I keep hoping for a sign and trade with Phoenix who currently have 4 point guards. They want a guy like Monroe but I am not sure the Suns smart GM would want to pay Monroe what he wants.

cool breeze wrote: I am sure that Meeks can also play small forward and Smith most likely will get some minutes there just to keep him happy.

I know you guys are happy to have Meeks on OUR roster, but there is no way in hell that F@ckin' Jodie Meeks can play a second at the SF position.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:56 pm

deusXango wrote:Any thoughts on Evan Turner? Say a two year deal with the second year a team option? Not pro or con but, searching for a solution at SF.

Stones, someone has offered Hayward a handsome deal, someone has offered Parsons a handsome deal, both of these players have one thing in common with Monroe; they're all RFA. If in fact the premium is on big men, why hasn't that "someone" surfaced with that max offer for Monroe? Oh, Hayward and Parsons are SF's. I wouldn't worry about Detroit getting screwed brother.
I am not getting this post dX. Our problem is POINT GUARD. Last season the weakness was not small forward but both guard positions. No guard could stop dribble penetration well. We still have two horrible point guards under contract. Arn't you worried about that dX? Do you know something that I don't know about some trade involving Bynum and Jennings? No team can win with those point guards. Singler is going to have a break out year. Last year he was a solid small forward on both ends. I am sure that Meeks can also play small forward and Smith most likely will get some minutes there just to keep him happy. On other thought involves our front court. I am worried about who will be able to play defense at the center and power forward positions. Last season both Monroe and Drummond were horrible. Smith is the only capable defender in the front court. The new pick up is just a guy who can give some hard fouls for a few minutes. Perhaps the small forward and shooting guard positions will be the Pistons only strong positions this year with the addition of Meeks and KCP getting better. 

I keep hoping for a sign and trade with Phoenix who currently have 4 point guards. They want a guy like Monroe but I am not sure the Suns smart GM would want to pay Monroe what he wants.

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Should every player in the league undeserving demand a max deal regardless of their talent.

Post  deusXango on Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:53 pm

WISEFAN wrote:
lemonpen wrote:

Wise, MAX is just a term.  It doesn't mean the same amount of $$$$ for everyone.  Moose max is not the same as LeBron / Bosh / Carmello / Wade max.

Max amount depends on time in the league, previous salary and position on the team.  You can't lump them together in context as financial equals.  Look at the dollar value of his demand in comparison to Irving, Wall, Cousins, and lesser players coming off of a rookie contract.

I think I know that Mr. Lemon  lol  and I never said they were financially equal they're not equally talented and that's where you make the comparison. Should every player in the league undeserving demand a max deal regardless of their talent. I'm saying his punk ass doesn't have the right to a max deal whatever the amount is, he hasn't earned it.  [/quote]

Well said Wise. There are teams with players who are more valuable to their franchises efforts to succeed than Moose is to ours and they haven't received max contracts but they signed reasonable ones because they wanted to be where they were. Lowery in Toronto for example. A players earning power should always be based on their performance but, I know that's not how it works, or at least, not how it has been working. The latest CBA was constituted to stop paying 2nd tier players "superstar" money, based on the silly ass notion that maybe they'll live up to the contract sooner rather than later, or they can be traded at any time and get their contract value; if that's the case, I expect to hear Jennings is leaving town any minute.
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Let's get off Greg Monroe and his future plans. Who cares? Look what Gary Harris did!

Post  cool breeze on Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:44 pm

Way to go Gary Harris. We Piston fans need to find sanity outside of our Piston team for awhile. The team is so bad that all we can think of is Greg Monroe who has never shown that he is a good player. In the history of the Detroit Pistons, nobody will rank Monroe as anything but a failure. Sure he played with the Pistons on a time when his front court mate was none other than Jason Maxiell. That was another pet of Joe Dumars. Who was Maxiell's agent??? Who is Bynum's agent???? Even Rasheed couldn't light a fire under Greg's ass to improve on defense. He never got better at all on the defensive end and his rebounds came when the ball happened to float into his hands. Fans will not have any memory of Greg Monroe leading his team in a tough situation. I recall once when our team was down by 12 points, that Brandon Knight flew off the court and into a gatorade container to try to keep the ball in play. Did anyone ever see Greg play with passion? And this has become the news of the Detroit Pistons. What a sad time this is Piston fans. Greg will go on to another team and their fans will  get on him after watching the way he runs the court. His stats might look good by his impact is just not there because his heart is just not in the game like other fantastic players that we all have loved watching wear the Piston uniform. 

As much as I have detested the way Josh Smith has played at times, I have actually seen this guy bring some emotion and guts at times last year. I don't believe that SVG can make Monroe's feet move any faster but perhaps some fans are correct that he might actually change the way Josh Smith plays basketball. We have to hope for that. Instead of thinking about Monroe, why not speculate on the possibility that Josh Smith can change his personality and become a team leader and help other players get better. I love the way Labron talks. He is talking about how he will improve his new Cleveland teammates individually. Labron James has the right stuff...

By the way, I am so glad that Gary Harris is in top form showing how good he really is going to be in the NBA. We Piston fans need some players we can be proud of but if that doesn't happen again this coming season, then we should be cheering for all the Michigan players who are making their mark in the NBA.

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While waiting for the Moose to come out of the woods

Post  deusXango on Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:31 pm

Any thoughts on Evan Turner? Say a two year deal with the second year a team option? Not pro or con but, searching for a solution at SF.

Stones, someone has offered Hayward a handsome deal, someone has offered Parsons a handsome deal, both of these players have one thing in common with Monroe; they're all RFA. If in fact the premium is on big men, why hasn't that "someone" surfaced with that max offer for Monroe? Oh, Hayward and Parsons are SF's. I wouldn't worry about Detroit getting screwed brother.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:24 pm

Oracle wrote:
Lemonpen wrote:Why pump yourself up on conjecture and assumptions. They're negotiating for what might be the bulk of Monroe's LIFETIME earnings. What agent worth is salt wouldn't seek the most $$$ and best terms for his client. Do yourself a favor, chill.


This is totally true, but the more important thing is loss of trust and playing position!

Monroe has seen Knight declared the future, only to be traded for trash! He's seen himself called the future, only to become a piece supporting the future! Sure, this was Joe's pattern, but it leads to trust issues!

Then there is the all important playing position! If I'm Monroe or his agent, I want out of Detroit, but there are significant problems leaving this year. The teams Monroe wants to go to have already made moves that preclude them from participating in a S&T.

As much as I want Monroe to stay, I also recognize that staying here will not maximize his talents and allow him to reach his potential, whatever that may be!

And seriously, after last year and watching the playoffs while knowing the personnel on this team(even if he was part of the problem), wouldn't you want to go?
Oracle I am glad you brought up this fact that Joe Dumars did create TRUST issues relating to how management handles their players. Certain pet players got whatever they wanted. But I think there might be more than meets the eye with Joe Dumars management style. A friend brought this subject up several years ago. Is there a link between Joe and certain agents as to how things play out with contracts? The idea that Dumars never notified Billups of that bogus trade that sent him to Denver still bothers me. In the end, a lot of fans had trust issues relating to Joe Dumars. He was an outstanding player but something happened along the way that changed this man once he left the hardwood as a player. Dumars has screwed this franchise for years to come. Some of us said that at the beginning of last season when the Knight and Middleton trade went down for Iverson. SVG is saying the right thing that he is prepared for any event but he knows deep down that this team is in big trouble. 

An interesting fact also concerns Drummond who wants to have Monroe has his teammate. Somehow Monroe doesn't feel the same way. I will also say this. No player wants to play for the Pistons right now based on recent history. If you are a Piston player, you will be playing basketball at your home court with very few fans to cheer you on to victory. It is somewhat like playing in the summer league in Orlando. And no smart fan wants to watch some of the players Joe Dumars has signed to big money contracts. If Gores had a better crystal ball, he should have fired Joe Dumars the moment he had control of the team. Yet his group of owners also have been in on the bone head decisions. All over the league, I see smart GMs making their teams better. It is a good damn thing that Joe is out for good.

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Not really: Detroit's about to get screwed

Post  Oracle on Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:14 pm

Go Stones! wrote:Someone will offer Monroe Max $ b/c they had it for a big player and would rather get Monroe than nothing.

Pistons will either match (and get screwed) or lose out on him walking away.  Either way, Pistons will get screwed.

Only way we don't is if we get a sign and trade with good trade value in return.  I'm not holding my breath.  Maybe if we get screwed it will allow us to be a big player at the trade deadline in that situation.

Matching isn't getting screwed, that's protecting our investment!

If we match we can still trade him for something, letting him walk is the dumb move, and SVG won't do that!
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Detroit's about to get screwed

Post  Go Stones! on Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:59 pm

Someone will offer Monroe Max $ b/c they had it for a big player and would rather get Monroe than nothing.

Pistons will either match (and get screwed) or lose out on him walking away. Either way, Pistons will get screwed.

Only way we don't is if we get a sign and trade with good trade value in return. I'm not holding my breath. Maybe if we get screwed it will allow us to be a big player at the trade deadline in that situation.
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conjecture and assumptions

Post  deusXango on Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:58 pm

lemonpen wrote:
deusXango wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:
Oracle wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:If I'm SVG or ownership here's what would happen when the season starts 1. His ass is regulated to being the one that comes off the bench and not at starter minutes period.  2. I'll trade his ass at first opportunity in so if I choose not to keep him he'll be playing for the Timberwolves before the season begins.  Told you all we should have traded his ass last summer. - For what? That's crazy talk, he made no money, and we trade a 60M player for 4M, which would have made us STUPID! IMO not if we were trading him based on talent and not dollars.  I've been screaming to trade him long before we got to point of talking about potential dollar value.  

SVG already has a chip on his shoulder and if Falk and Monroe screws him or try to by signing that qualifying offer Moose might spend the entire season getting DPN-CD.  So when his product drops to half of what it is now lets see how many max offers come in next summer.

Slow down folks! Has anyone heard of management asking a baseball player to sacrifice some of his salary so that the team could win? It's mildly asked in the NFL, but it's rare. But in basketball, it's asked way too often!

F#ck the owners, Monroe should use any device at his disposal to squeeze as much cash out of these dudes as possible, then once the dust settles, fulfill whatever contract he negotiates.

Like lemonpen said, I'm cool with any outcome, and like Wise said, let's serve up some punishment if we don't like the result or the process, but let it play out.

As a fan I don't like it, but times have changed and this is business, but it's also business if we don't like it and decide to trade his ass ASAP after signing him to whatever.

But one thing is clear to me, and likely Monroe! These owners & GM's are nobody's friends, so let's not view the players negotiating for their best interest as evil.

It's when either side abuses the process that problems exist, and IMO, Monroe is close to that line, but he hasn't crossed it yet!

IMO opinion players are at the line when they're over valuing themselves Monroe was at that point when the Pistons laid the 5yr 60 million on the table which I still contend is more than he's worth so to play this game further is bullshit.  Now he's at the point of wanting something for nothing and I can't subscribe to this type of individual greed regardless to how some may feel about ownership.  I'm not calling Moose evil I'm calling his ass greedy and spineless he has not right to demand this amount of greed  his name not f@cking Lebron, Kobe, Magic, Jordan or Carmelo.

Plus he doesn't want to be a Piston!!! Doesn't that mean anything to anybody???? He and his agent are doing the best they can to hamstring a new administration that's done nothing to them. Here's an unasked/unanswered question; has Monroe's camp gone to SVG and stated that he wants out of Detroit, plain and simple?

Why pump yourself up on conjecture and assumptions.  They're negotiating for what might be the bulk of Monroe's LIFETIME earnings.  What agent worth is salt wouldn't seek the most $$$ and best terms for his client.  Do yourself a favor, chill.

Ooooo, that's kind of strong Lemon, but to stick to the point, after reading the MLive article on Monroe and Falk stalling, one would logically draw the conclusion that Monroe doesn't want to be a Piston and the stated strategy at play reinforces that. If it's conjecture and assumption, it's on the original writer. Here's a "chill pill" for you; SVG pulls the 60/5 offer off the table and wait for Monroe's camp to bring them a solid proposal, since it's our move.
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Monroe: What's the real problem

Post  Oracle on Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:37 pm

Lemonpen wrote:Why pump yourself up on conjecture and assumptions. They're negotiating for what might be the bulk of Monroe's LIFETIME earnings. What agent worth is salt wouldn't seek the most $$$ and best terms for his client. Do yourself a favor, chill.


This is totally true, but the more important thing is loss of trust and playing position!

Monroe has seen Knight declared the future, only to be traded for trash! He's seen himself called the future, only to become a piece supporting the future! Sure, this was Joe's pattern, but it leads to trust issues!

Then there is the all important playing position! If I'm Monroe or his agent, I want out of Detroit, but there are significant problems leaving this year. The teams Monroe wants to go to have already made moves that preclude them from participating in a S&T.

As much as I want Monroe to stay, I also recognize that staying here will not maximize his talents and allow him to reach his potential, whatever that may be!

And seriously, after last year and watching the playoffs while knowing the personnel on this team(even if he was part of the problem), wouldn't you want to go?
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Monroe/ Deus

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:27 pm

Good point, Deus, that Monroe would stand to lose some value if his role's downgraded while he's on a qo contract. I think Monroe would be perfectly fine signing a 60/5 deal with what he regards as the right team, where he'll both get a ton of money and play in his optimal role. It's the Pistons that would need to pay him a premium for a longterm deal. The opposite of a hometown discount!

deusXango wrote:
Sparma wrote:David Mayo's spot on, in my view, in his mlive essay "Stall raises questions...."  I agree, for one thing, that the stall itself constitutes evidence at this point of the Falk-Monroe thinking.

The one point on which I disagree is that Mayo says something like the Pistons have insisted all options are under control.   In fact, I found it striking that SVG (was it in a Goodwill story?) strikes a Stoic pose, saying he's comfortable with all of the options which are under the team's control and (b) he's not going to worry about what's not under their control.

What's not under control would be the signing of the qualifying offer.  In addition, arguably, the semi-forcing by Falk of a sign and trade if leaving as an uncompensated, unrestricted, free agent is used as real leverage would leave the team with no genuine alternative, assuming a decent return could be had (eg from Phoenix?).

David Falk has named the game and it's called "hardball;" live with the consequences. If Monroe signs the Q.O. then he's marked himself to be the big to come off the bench in SVG's projected rotation. We all know that Drummond brings more to the center position than Monroe and not only does Smith bring more to the PF position but, he shouldn't be playing behind a $5.5 million player at his salary! Once Monroe loses SVG's trust to be a force at the end of games (like he's done with more than one coach) and a none starter to boot, how will he justify looking for a max deal next summer? The logical question is, will he fire Falk? This proposed Q.O. signing can backfire very easily on Monroe because once he signs it, he and the Pistons are "married" for the duration of the season; SVG wouldn't be mean if he brought Monroe off the bench, but practical.

Sparma, you're right, the signing of the Q.O. is not under the teams control but, the signing will certainly spin Monroe's financial future out of his control. In order for this signing to work in his favor, he'd suddenly have to magically become twice the player he's been....a Kevin Love or LaMarcus Aldridge type player. It's been discussed that he had untapped potential and room to grow, well now's the time to prove it; I hope he does but, I don't think he will.
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Monroe Conjecture

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:22 pm

I'm o.k. with all of the options (assuming a decent return on a sign-and-trade) except for Monroe signing the qualifying offer. I can't see us getting much of a return during the course of the season on a guy earning less than 6 mil who's about to become an unrestricted free agent. Once he signs the qo, he more than likely walks, with little cap space opening at next summer when he walks. What I wonder is if we could do some damage this summer if/ when we knew Monroe'd get paid less than 6 mil rather than, say, 15 mil. For one year, it'd give the team a nice cap windfall (although most would be signed by the time we'd know). In my conjecture, I still have the sign-and-trade by mutual agreement as the odds on favorite.

lemonpen wrote:
Sparma wrote:David Mayo's spot on, in my view, in his mlive essay "Stall raises questions...."  I agree, for one thing, that the stall itself constitutes evidence at this point of the Falk-Monroe thinking.

The one point on which I disagree is that Mayo says something like the Pistons have insisted all options are under control.   In fact, I found it striking that SVG (was it in a Goodwill story?) strikes a Stoic pose, saying he's comfortable with all of the options which are under the team's control and (b) he's not going to worry about what's not under their control.

What's not under control would be the signing of the qualifying offer.  In addition, arguably, the semi-forcing by Falk of a sign and trade if leaving as an uncompensated, unrestricted, free agent is used as real leverage would leave the team with no genuine alternative, assuming a decent return could be had (eg from Phoenix?).

I'm perfectly comfortable with all of the outcomes.  How about you.  If Moose accepts the QO I say move his arse B4 the trade deadline for all we can get.  And if he winds up in a NBA armpit I'm happier.  If he stays, develop a 1-2 punch with Andre.  If it is to be a S&T just don't come up empty or with assets that take long to produce.
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Domino Effect

Post  Go Stones! on Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:13 pm

With Pierce going to Washington, look for Nets to take a strong look at Monroe. Garnett is not a 30 min PF and Brook can only play so long. Monroe would be perfect for them.

I also wonder if Stuckey would be a good fit for their guard off the bench to spell Johnson and D Will.

Unfortunately, I don't see them as a great sign-and-trade team.
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Mr. Lemonpen

Post  WTF on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:37 pm

lemonpen wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:
Oracle wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:If I'm SVG or ownership here's what would happen when the season starts 1. His ass is regulated to being the one that comes off the bench and not at starter minutes period.  2. I'll trade his ass at first opportunity in so if I choose not to keep him he'll be playing for the Timberwolves before the season begins.  Told you all we should have traded his ass last summer. - For what? That's crazy talk, he made no money, and we trade a 60M player for 4M, which would have made us STUPID! IMO not if we were trading him based on talent and not dollars.  I've been screaming to trade him long before we got to point of talking about potential dollar value.  

SVG already has a chip on his shoulder and if Falk and Monroe screws him or try to by signing that qualifying offer Moose might spend the entire season getting DPN-CD.  So when his product drops to half of what it is now lets see how many max offers come in next summer.

Slow down folks! Has anyone heard of management asking a baseball player to sacrifice some of his salary so that the team could win? It's mildly asked in the NFL, but it's rare. But in basketball, it's asked way too often!

F#ck the owners, Monroe should use any device at his disposal to squeeze as much cash out of these dudes as possible, then once the dust settles, fulfill whatever contract he negotiates.

Like lemonpen said, I'm cool with any outcome, and like Wise said, let's serve up some punishment if we don't like the result or the process, but let it play out.

As a fan I don't like it, but times have changed and this is business, but it's also business if we don't like it and decide to trade his ass ASAP after signing him to whatever.

But one thing is clear to me, and likely Monroe! These owners & GM's are nobody's friends, so let's not view the players negotiating for their best interest as evil.

It's when either side abuses the process that problems exist, and IMO, Monroe is close to that line, but he hasn't crossed it yet!

IMO opinion players are at the line when they're over valuing themselves Monroe was at that point when the Pistons laid the 5yr 60 million on the table which I still contend is more than he's worth so to play this game further is bullshit.  Now he's at the point of wanting something for nothing and I can't subscribe to this type of individual greed regardless to how some may feel about ownership.  I'm not calling Moose evil I'm calling his ass greedy and spineless he has not right to demand this amount of greed  his name not f@cking Lebron, Kobe, Magic, Jordan or Carmelo.

Wise, MAX is just a term.  It doesn't mean the same amount of $$$$ for everyone.  Moose max is not the same as LeBron / Bosh / Carmello / Wade max.

Max amount depends on time in the league, previous salary and position on the team.  You can't lump them together in context as financial equals.  Look at the dollar value of his demand in comparison to Irving, Wall, Cousins, and lesser players coming off of a rookie contract.

I think I know that Mr. Lemon  lol  and I never said they were financially equal they're not equally talented and that's where you make the comparison. Should every player in the league undeserving demand a max deal regardless of their talent. I'm saying his punk ass doesn't have the right to a max deal whatever the amount is, he hasn't earned it.
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conjecture and assumptions

Post  lemonpen on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:34 pm

deusXango wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:
Oracle wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:If I'm SVG or ownership here's what would happen when the season starts 1. His ass is regulated to being the one that comes off the bench and not at starter minutes period.  2. I'll trade his ass at first opportunity in so if I choose not to keep him he'll be playing for the Timberwolves before the season begins.  Told you all we should have traded his ass last summer. - For what? That's crazy talk, he made no money, and we trade a 60M player for 4M, which would have made us STUPID! IMO not if we were trading him based on talent and not dollars.  I've been screaming to trade him long before we got to point of talking about potential dollar value.  

SVG already has a chip on his shoulder and if Falk and Monroe screws him or try to by signing that qualifying offer Moose might spend the entire season getting DPN-CD.  So when his product drops to half of what it is now lets see how many max offers come in next summer.

Slow down folks! Has anyone heard of management asking a baseball player to sacrifice some of his salary so that the team could win? It's mildly asked in the NFL, but it's rare. But in basketball, it's asked way too often!

F#ck the owners, Monroe should use any device at his disposal to squeeze as much cash out of these dudes as possible, then once the dust settles, fulfill whatever contract he negotiates.

Like lemonpen said, I'm cool with any outcome, and like Wise said, let's serve up some punishment if we don't like the result or the process, but let it play out.

As a fan I don't like it, but times have changed and this is business, but it's also business if we don't like it and decide to trade his ass ASAP after signing him to whatever.

But one thing is clear to me, and likely Monroe! These owners & GM's are nobody's friends, so let's not view the players negotiating for their best interest as evil.

It's when either side abuses the process that problems exist, and IMO, Monroe is close to that line, but he hasn't crossed it yet!

IMO opinion players are at the line when they're over valuing themselves Monroe was at that point when the Pistons laid the 5yr 60 million on the table which I still contend is more than he's worth so to play this game further is bullshit.  Now he's at the point of wanting something for nothing and I can't subscribe to this type of individual greed regardless to how some may feel about ownership.  I'm not calling Moose evil I'm calling his ass greedy and spineless he has not right to demand this amount of greed  his name not f@cking Lebron, Kobe, Magic, Jordan or Carmelo.

Plus he doesn't want to be a Piston!!! Doesn't that mean anything to anybody???? He and his agent are doing the best they can to hamstring a new administration that's done nothing to them. Here's an unasked/unanswered question; has Monroe's camp gone to SVG and stated that he wants out of Detroit, plain and simple?

Why pump yourself up on conjecture and assumptions. They're negotiating for what might be the bulk of Monroe's LIFETIME earnings. What agent worth is salt wouldn't seek the most $$$ and best terms for his client. Do yourself a favor, chill.
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Monroe/ Wisefan

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:32 pm

Wise, I guess I disagree with you on one issue: I do think Monroe would sign with the Pistons for the max, or very close to it.

As I see it, there are three principal possibilities in play:

1) Sign with Detroit for the max or very close to it, likely triggered by us matching a high deal Monroe signs.

2) A sign-and-trade that comes about either because SVG loves what's on offer or because it's good enough given the real threat of signing the qualifying offer.

3) Signing the qualifying offer.

That may sound indecisive on my part, but I think the outcome will depend on which variables emerge and on the delicate dance between SVG and Falk.

What I don't see happening:

Monroe signing a reasonable long term deal with Detroit, eg, the 60/5 mentioned by DBB. Even then, that could happen, if Falk sees no attractive alternatives, even moving into next summer as an unrestricted free agent. Seems very unlikely to me.
WISEFAN wrote:
Sparma wrote:David Mayo's spot on, in my view, in his mlive essay "Stall raises questions...."  I agree, for one thing, that the stall itself constitutes evidence at this point of the Falk-Monroe thinking.

The one point on which I disagree is that Mayo says something like the Pistons have insisted all options are under control.   In fact, I found it striking that SVG (was it in a Goodwill story?) strikes a Stoic pose, saying he's comfortable with all of the options which are under the team's control and (b) he's not going to worry about what's not under their control.

What's not under control would be the signing of the qualifying offer.  In addition, arguably, the semi-forcing by Falk of a sign and trade if leaving as an uncompensated, unrestricted, free agent is used as real leverage would leave the team with no genuine alternative, assuming a decent return could be had (eg from Phoenix?).

What I'm getting from the article and this game being played is that Monroe doesn't want to be here period (max deal or not).  I do think that SVG and the Pistons hold all the cards because signing the qualifying offer of 5.5 doesn't guarantee him a max deal next summer.  No teams are offering up a max deal now and it has very little to do with the potential of us matching, they simply don't think he's worth it.  

Pistons put 5yrs and 60 million on the table which more than what he's worth so the only thing he could be waiting on is to be signed and traded because he doesn't want be here. I think we're better off without him so Falk can keep selling him on the idea he's worth max dollars.  I hope he's dumb enough to sign the qualifying offer and see how that works out for this season and next.
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This Is Getting Tiresome

Post  WTF on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:30 pm

The other odd thing is that the only speculation and chatter on the subject of Monroe is coming from local media, and Pistons news outlets. How f@cking strange that very little nationally is being said? We get a **** load of rumors. speculations from sources concerning the far less than average scrub about to sign or in some discussion with some team but there seems to be nil on who the Pistons might be in discussion with on a potential sign and trade and that no other team offers have been discussed or speculated on.

You would think with a player demanding a max deal we would know every time he farts the way the media reports and speculate on **** rather it's valid or not. There been nothing from teams validating a strong interest in his ass and I don't buy into the Restricted Theory being the cause of it. Falk's is an ass hole and Moose is over-valuing his own ass and SVG is over-thinking this whole process by over-valuing his ass as well.

Pistons need to draw the hard line in the sand, at this point that should put that qualifying offer back in his face and say sign here bitch and proceed from there. This frees up almost 6 million in cap space to add to the remaining 5 or 6 million they already have available and get in on the Deng race at this point. F@CK MOOSE AND FALKS

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Moose

Post  lemonpen on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:21 pm

WISEFAN wrote:
Oracle wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:If I'm SVG or ownership here's what would happen when the season starts 1. His ass is regulated to being the one that comes off the bench and not at starter minutes period.  2. I'll trade his ass at first opportunity in so if I choose not to keep him he'll be playing for the Timberwolves before the season begins.  Told you all we should have traded his ass last summer. - For what? That's crazy talk, he made no money, and we trade a 60M player for 4M, which would have made us STUPID! IMO not if we were trading him based on talent and not dollars.  I've been screaming to trade him long before we got to point of talking about potential dollar value.  

SVG already has a chip on his shoulder and if Falk and Monroe screws him or try to by signing that qualifying offer Moose might spend the entire season getting DPN-CD.  So when his product drops to half of what it is now lets see how many max offers come in next summer.

Slow down folks! Has anyone heard of management asking a baseball player to sacrifice some of his salary so that the team could win? It's mildly asked in the NFL, but it's rare. But in basketball, it's asked way too often!

F#ck the owners, Monroe should use any device at his disposal to squeeze as much cash out of these dudes as possible, then once the dust settles, fulfill whatever contract he negotiates.

Like lemonpen said, I'm cool with any outcome, and like Wise said, let's serve up some punishment if we don't like the result or the process, but let it play out.

As a fan I don't like it, but times have changed and this is business, but it's also business if we don't like it and decide to trade his ass ASAP after signing him to whatever.

But one thing is clear to me, and likely Monroe! These owners & GM's are nobody's friends, so let's not view the players negotiating for their best interest as evil.

It's when either side abuses the process that problems exist, and IMO, Monroe is close to that line, but he hasn't crossed it yet!

IMO opinion players are at the line when they're over valuing themselves Monroe was at that point when the Pistons laid the 5yr 60 million on the table which I still contend is more than he's worth so to play this game further is bullshit.  Now he's at the point of wanting something for nothing and I can't subscribe to this type of individual greed regardless to how some may feel about ownership.  I'm not calling Moose evil I'm calling his ass greedy and spineless he has not right to demand this amount of greed  his name not f@cking Lebron, Kobe, Magic, Jordan or Carmelo.

Wise, MAX is just a term. It doesn't mean the same amount of $$$$ for everyone. Moose max is not the same as LeBron / Bosh / Carmello / Wade max.

Max amount depends on time in the league, previous salary and position on the team. You can't lump them together in context as financial equals. Look at the dollar value of his demand in comparison to Irving, Wall, Cousins, and lesser players coming off of a rookie contract.
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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:08 pm

WISEFAN wrote:
Oracle wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:If I'm SVG or ownership here's what would happen when the season starts 1. His ass is regulated to being the one that comes off the bench and not at starter minutes period.  2. I'll trade his ass at first opportunity in so if I choose not to keep him he'll be playing for the Timberwolves before the season begins.  Told you all we should have traded his ass last summer. - For what? That's crazy talk, he made no money, and we trade a 60M player for 4M, which would have made us STUPID! IMO not if we were trading him based on talent and not dollars.  I've been screaming to trade him long before we got to point of talking about potential dollar value.  

SVG already has a chip on his shoulder and if Falk and Monroe screws him or try to by signing that qualifying offer Moose might spend the entire season getting DPN-CD.  So when his product drops to half of what it is now lets see how many max offers come in next summer.

Slow down folks! Has anyone heard of management asking a baseball player to sacrifice some of his salary so that the team could win? It's mildly asked in the NFL, but it's rare. But in basketball, it's asked way too often!

F#ck the owners, Monroe should use any device at his disposal to squeeze as much cash out of these dudes as possible, then once the dust settles, fulfill whatever contract he negotiates.

Like lemonpen said, I'm cool with any outcome, and like Wise said, let's serve up some punishment if we don't like the result or the process, but let it play out.

As a fan I don't like it, but times have changed and this is business, but it's also business if we don't like it and decide to trade his ass ASAP after signing him to whatever.

But one thing is clear to me, and likely Monroe! These owners & GM's are nobody's friends, so let's not view the players negotiating for their best interest as evil.

It's when either side abuses the process that problems exist, and IMO, Monroe is close to that line, but he hasn't crossed it yet!

IMO opinion players are at the line when they're over valuing themselves Monroe was at that point when the Pistons laid the 5yr 60 million on the table which I still contend is more than he's worth so to play this game further is bullshit.  Now he's at the point of wanting something for nothing and I can't subscribe to this type of individual greed regardless to how some may feel about ownership.  I'm not calling Moose evil I'm calling his ass greedy and spineless he has not right to demand this amount of greed  his name not f@cking Lebron, Kobe, Magic, Jordan or Carmelo.

Plus he doesn't want to be a Piston!!! Doesn't that mean anything to anybody???? He and his agent are doing the best they can to hamstring a new administration that's done nothing to them. Here's an unasked/unanswered question; has Monroe's camp gone to SVG and stated that he wants out of Detroit, plain and simple?
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Re: FORUM

Post  WTF on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:01 pm

Oracle wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:If I'm SVG or ownership here's what would happen when the season starts 1. His ass is regulated to being the one that comes off the bench and not at starter minutes period.  2. I'll trade his ass at first opportunity in so if I choose not to keep him he'll be playing for the Timberwolves before the season begins.  Told you all we should have traded his ass last summer. - For what? That's crazy talk, he made no money, and we trade a 60M player for 4M, which would have made us STUPID! IMO not if we were trading him based on talent and not dollars. I've been screaming to trade him long before we got to point of talking about potential dollar value.

SVG already has a chip on his shoulder and if Falk and Monroe screws him or try to by signing that qualifying offer Moose might spend the entire season getting DPN-CD.  So when his product drops to half of what it is now lets see how many max offers come in next summer.

Slow down folks! Has anyone heard of management asking a baseball player to sacrifice some of his salary so that the team could win? It's mildly asked in the NFL, but it's rare. But in basketball, it's asked way too often!

F#ck the owners, Monroe should use any device at his disposal to squeeze as much cash out of these dudes as possible, then once the dust settles, fulfill whatever contract he negotiates.

Like lemonpen said, I'm cool with any outcome, and like Wise said, let's serve up some punishment if we don't like the result or the process, but let it play out.

As a fan I don't like it, but times have changed and this is business, but it's also business if we don't like it and decide to trade his ass ASAP after signing him to whatever.

But one thing is clear to me, and likely Monroe! These owners & GM's are nobody's friends, so let's not view the players negotiating for their best interest as evil.

It's when either side abuses the process that problems exist, and IMO, Monroe is close to that line, but he hasn't crossed it yet!

IMO opinion players are at the line when they're over valuing themselves Monroe was at that point when the Pistons laid the 5yr 60 million on the table which I still contend is more than he's worth so to play this game further is bullshit. Now he's at the point of wanting something for nothing and I can't subscribe to this type of individual greed regardless to how some may feel about ownership. I'm not calling Moose evil I'm calling his ass greedy and spineless he has not right to demand this amount of greed his name not f@cking Lebron, Kobe, Magic, Jordan or Carmelo.
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