NY and Stuff

[Murph]

Lackluster game last night.  It was really difficult to watch and not fall asleep.  The Pistons seem to play down to the level of competition, doing just enough to beat bad teams.  

Blake once again carried the offense with 30, and kept Vonleh, Robinson and Herzonja in foul trouble all night.  Griffin went to the free throw line 16 times.

The bench was really the high point of the night.   Stanley Johnson continues to improve.  Even his shooting was outstanding.  He went 7-9 from the floor, including 2-3 from the 3 pt line.  If ever there were an argument that Dwayne Casey is a player's coach who maximizes his player's potential, Stanley Johnson is proof of that.  The transition from the last 3 years to this year is nothing short of astounding.  This year, he is shooting 5 percentage points better than his career average.  The Pistons need to make him the qualifying offer at the end of the season, and bring him back.

Zaza had 9 and 6 and was a team high +20 on the night.  Ish had 9 and 7, and Brown had 5 rebounds to round out the great bench play.

[Sparma]

I expected Kanter to go off, but instead it was Trier.  The Knicks have a nice collection of young players.

Outstanding game by Stanley, including impressive full court runs with controlled finishes and a fabulous and important block at the end. Might he finally have found his niche off the bench.

Another star turn by Blake.  Didn't they say he now has six games over 30 for the season?  I wonder if any Piston's done that since Stackhouse and Hill.  Maybe Hamilton?

(Note: Blake sadly was 0-5 from 3, combining with Reggie B and Langston for 2-14 from 3. Good thing Stanley and Reggie J stepped up, going 4-6).

We started 14-6 last year, now 11-7. Those two records are in the neighborhood of each other, but I don't think we're playing nearly as well as last year, when it seems we'd mastering a varied O and a covering D. Of course, my early confidence was completely done in by later results. Likely this year's version will be a bit more even over the course of the year (it'd be hard to replicate last year's pattern, even though I do see a downturn in the offing given the schedule. Important to win on Friday.)

[Sparma]

That's interesting, Murph. There must be something like that.

Oracle's right about earning respect. It's just weird to see the W-L records lined up like that.

Sparma...I'm guessing that CBS Sports derives their rankings based on the Simple Rating System.  According to Basketball Reference, the SRS is derived from two statistics, Strength of Schedule and Point Differential.  

First,  As BallinD pointed out, we've had the 2nd easiest schedule in the NBA so far.  And second, our point differential is an unimpressive +0.8, which ranks 14th in the League.

Now, IMO this statistic is backward looking, and does not take into account our improved play over the last 8 games.

[BallinD]

We're almost there folks.  17 games in and much has emerged, but much is to be revealed.  No more trap games, cause Casey don't play that, Homie!  Get the win tonight against a hard-charging, well-coached team.  

What is at stake at the 20-game mark?  Do We Make a Trade? since we are [b]All-In.  We don't have trade pieces, or do we?  Shop Bullock and Luke, since they are the only two besides Blake who can hit a damn shot?  We can't go back to 2005, or can we?  Can freaking Bruce Brown and SJ carry us forward with our so-called Big Three?  If you believe that, you might as well reset and how do you do that with Blake and Dre on the roster.  

Where is the talent evaluation?  Alonzo Trier for NY being a prime example.  Undrafted rookie, another swing and a miss by the brain trust.  But, but, but...I think I like where this team is going approaching the 20-game mark.  

Playing hard, getting away from Weggie-ball, finishing games, more consistency, and so Casey says shots will fall???? Paging Luke Kennard; Feel the force Luke!

[Oracle]

Yes you're negative, so is Wise, and most of the things you both say are fairly accurate as of now.

Just like in the real world, you need both sides to make their cases and utilize the information to make rational decision.

That was the point of my last post, we don't deserve any respect because we haven't proven anything, and good teams have a lot of physical and mental barriers to overcome before they can display the consistency and mental toughness needed to be one of the top teams.

Where I disagree with you and Wise is that I know that this takes time and I recognize seeing progress. Maybe they take a few steps back before moving forward, I don't know, but as a fan of this team, I enjoy seeing even the small steps forward.

[cool breeze]

Reason 1: Houston is a good team. This is a difficult team to beat, and we've played them tough for two straight games.

Reason 2: Houston is an offensive powerhouse. The can score in bunches, but because they're so good offensively, it says a lot about where the Pistons are defensively.

Reason 3: Houston, unlike a lot of Western Teams, plays very good defense. Once you get past Harden, who did better than usual defensively in these two games, the rest of the team is very good defensively. Because they are, it says a lot about our ability to execute and focus down the stretch to beat them.

This is seriously a solid win for our guys, something this team can build on and I think they will!

The game against the Rockets was a good win for the Pistons but I would use caution by making too much of it. If the Pistons played the Rockets in the playoffs, they would lose 4 straight games as would be true will any team that the Pistons might play in a playoff situation. Regular season games are mis leading because a lot of players are just showing up for those games and the coaches do not design any specific strategy to exploit opposing team's weaknesses. Whoever the Pistons are matched up with in the playoffs if they do make the playoffs will take out the Blake Factor forcing the Pistons to find scoring from another source. They will also exploit the Pistons guards who cannot guard any playoff caliber team in the NBA. Just try that lineup with Jackson, Smith and Galloway or Jackson, Smith and Bullock. Opposing teams will launch their attack on the many Piston weaknesses at certain points in games and create a blow out situation. Maybe the main reason why Casey is a loser when it comes to the playoffs is because of his selection of the groups he has playing together at any specific time in games. The basic talent level of this Piston roster is way below the norm for playoff teams. The Rockets are saving themselves for the playoffs but perhaps the Rockets are not as good as they were last season. Paul is a step slower and they look as if they are missing one or two players they will need to be as good as they were a season ago. Maybe they will get Stanley Johnson before the end of the season to add toughness. After all we all learned from the Blake Griffin trade last season that the Pistons are a Farm Team and the Piston front office would giggle at the thought of getting a 2nd round pick and garbage. Is there any other Piston player that the Clipper might be interested in who is now playing for the Pistons? If so Tom Gores will make sure they get whoever they might want.

Sorry to be negative Oracle. You wrote a nice post but I do not trust this owner or his front office.

[Oracle]

I don't think we deserve much respect from the media yet, that has to be earned, so if we keep it up, the respect will come.

[cool breeze]

The Suns have talent if nobody noticed not counting their All Star guard from Grand Rapids that the Pistons passed on. The Suns, with the leadership of an outstanding GM who has been fired by the Suns owner Sarver, blew up their team that was much like the current Piston team. They drafted high in the draft and will get another high draft pick next summer. The front office leadership involving the Suns vs the Pistons decided not to lie to their fans. They knew that there was no way Phoenix could continue to sign rejects from other teams while giving up draft picks and expect to grow the fan base. When there is no chance of the team you support ever winning a title, why buy a ticket and be a sucker? In Detroit, this owner expects Piston fans to be loyal to the brand regardless of the quality of snake oil he is selling. What happens when your goal is to win as many games as you lose in any given year and make the playoffs is that you never develop the players that you pick in the draft.

Last season while Stanley Johnson was in and out of the dog house always being the scapegoat during long losing streaks, he never had anyone within the Piston management team including the coach who said to Johnson, you are the future. You are going to play regardless of the ups and downs that happens to all young kids who are drafted at age 19. When Johnson played he was always the 5th option meaning he is never to expect to touch the ball in the half court set. Nothing has changed with Johnson to this day. He scores by getting steals or running in transition because this coach also lives and dies with impulsive 3 point shooting with no 2nd, 3rd option involving screening or playing both sides of the court. Just run down the court and shoot it as quickly as possible. Johnson could thrive in an offense featuring strategy of getting mid range shots or more penetration by players other than the point guard.

Switch gears and see what is happening when teams do the right thing with their future star players. Josh Jackson, another Michigan product, played a lot of minutes last season as a rookie for the Suns. He was horrible on many nights and couldn't shoot a jump shot to save his life. But the GM had his back for that entire season of losing. No young player can ever get the timing down relating to the NBA game unless they play a lot of minutes. The longer they sit on the bench, the lower their chances are of success. There was never a time last season where the coaching staff said hey Josh, you are a horrible shooter so we are making you the 5th option in our offense. No the opposite happened where Jackson was free to make his mistakes and touched the basketball a lot.

This season the Suns have another rookie named DeAndre Ayton who is another teenager playing center against players like Andre Drummond who has many years of experience and is 25 years old. Drummond was one of very few players who was able to play a lot of minutes while making huge mistakes on both offense and defense. He is still learning after all those minutes. For those of you who watched this last game, did any of you see the basic talent that Ayton possesses? The Suns had a tough game against the Bucks that went into overtime a short time before they played another away game against the Pistons. How did Ayton look against Drummond? Is there any Piston fan who wouldn't gladly trade Drummond for Ayton now even though Drummond is stronger and has more experience? Ayton has an extremely high basketball IQ and incredible offensive talent much like Anthony Davis. Shaq first identified Ayton when he played in high school saying Ayton is a once in a generation type of player. Now DyAndre is getting his feet wet learning how hard it is to play long games close together. Within 3 years, Ayton is going to dominate the paint on both ends of the floor. Ayton was the number 1 overall pick so you should expect great things. Meanwhile, the Pistons drafted mid range and got Henry Ellenson a few years ago. Nobody knows what kind of player he could be at this point in time because the Piston front office decided to just sit him on the bench. They wouldn't even let him play in the G League for a season. Now Ellenson is still only 21 years old which is extremely young for a big man. He watches while the Pistons play a player on his way out of the league due to age who is much like all but maybe two other players on the current roster. The Pistons have mediocre fringe players who the fans are supposed to look for positive signs from game to game. Bullock is perhaps even worse as a defender than Smith, Jackson or Galloway but it is a toss up. I noticed that Bullock got beat on every possession in the game involving the Suns. He cannot stop dribble penetration. The coach is not concerned with the amount of inept defenders on this team. He wants shooting specialists. So the Pistons front office is not serious at all about giving the fans a team that they can ever hope with win even a box of crackerjacks. Any other team would have bought out Leuer's contract by now and moved on but we will continue to read planted articles in the local press about how the Pistons have Leuer almost ready now. What do the Pistons have to lose by playing Henry Ellenson 5 minutes a game. What damage could he cause? According to the Piston experts, Henry cannot play because he is a horrible defender. Yet we see every night that most of the players in the rotation play horrible defense.

The only player who anyone can say with positive certainty who plays good defense is Stanley Johnson and Stanley has been passed over by Piston management and will be gone after this year. Fans who have bought the cool aid relating the the blame game that always centers around Johnson when the team loses will have to find another victim next year.

I can move on to Thomas as well who I think has good potential to be a much more effective player than Bullock, Galloway, Jackson or Smith. He needs to play in the G League. Hello Piston management is there anyone awake??? Put Henry in the G League. Why am I the only person who thinks the Piston front office have to be a bunch of idiots?

We fans who have suffered watching Johnson miss all those 3 point shots get nothing in return. The Pistons will sign another ZaZa type player as a fill in because they have spent all their money on Griffin, Drummond, Jackson, Leuer, and Galloway who will all be back next year. Maybe the Pistons will sign Bullock again who will be something like 28 or 29 next season. Maybe they can get him cheap or perhaps get another guard who is 38 years old. Meanwhile, the 22 year old Johnson will be a solid piece for the lucky fans who get to watch him in his prime. The Pistons are nothing but a farm team that has no plan for success. One of the posters pointed out that a the Pistons have perhaps the easiest schedule of any team at this point. Remember for the past two seasons that the Pistons started out pretty good and then before the first of January fell apart? The suns are going through a long road trip now with 1 win under their belt against the Bucks. It will be interesting to see how the Pistons perform against the Bucks. We will see how Casey's players perform on a long road trip when the long ball won't go down. Most likely the Pistons will be giving up a lot of layups just like last year.

When the Pistons break up this bad team, I will give the front office more respect. As of now, they do not deserve any respect. By the way, do any of you like Holmes who is the back up center for the Suns? I would love to see that guy in a Piston uniform. I think he is on a one year contract but I can't see how the Suns won't sign him. What a steal for them.

[Murph]

Sparma...I'm guessing that CBS Sports derives their rankings based on the Simple Rating System.  According to Basketball Reference, the SRS is derived from two statistics, Strength of Schedule and Point Differential.  

First,  As BallinD pointed out, we've had the 2nd easiest schedule in the NBA so far.  And second, our point differential is an unimpressive +0.8, which ranks 14th in the League.

Now, IMO this statistic is backward looking, and does not take into account our improved play over the last 8 games.

[Sparma]

The Pistons (10-7) are sitting at #18 in the cbssports powerrankings (granted, generally pretty silly stuff) behind teams with 9-10, 9-10, 10-10, 9-11, 10-10, then skipping one, 9-9. Dang! Maybe they've been looking ahead to the schedule. The stock market doesn't work that way, does it?

The comment's an important one though: "Reggie Jackson has the fifth-lowest field-goal percentage among NBA starting backcourt players. The only four starting guards shooting lower than Jackson's 37.6 percent: Frank Ntilikina, Patrick Beverley, Terrance Ferguson and Ricky Rubio."

I enjoyed Oracle's comments about the positive impact of Blake, and Murph's concerning Coach Casey highlighting the best in various players.

I do agree with BallinD that 4-15's concerning. Amazing, but in a bad (Amazin' Mets) way. Reggie's really shown some good stuff recently, but something in him seems to resist staying on the straight and narrow, play-the-right way, path. I do think that Blake and Casey have had a positive impact on him though.

It's different now with these Pistons, and I wanna believe that... except for my favorite whipping boy, Weggie. 4-15 from three vs Suns...are you focking kidding me Focker!?  

Meanwhile Bullock is 2-5 and yeah, after a few decent-good games (under control Weggie for the most part) it went straight to his head.  What is it gonna take for this fool to wake up?!  Pass to GR3 or Bullock who are demonstrably better 3pt shooters than you.  In what world is 15 3s from a career 31.8 3 pt shooter who is shooting 30 percent this year acceptable.

Hell, we got the win, so where's the beef?  Well, according to NBA.com we have the 2nd easiest strength of schedule rating in the association.  That is about to change and damnit Weggie's machinations won't fly as we start to play better teams more consistently. Easiest: 1. Toronto, 2. Detroit, 3. Dallas

Other Stuff:

Dre & Blake are the number one post up tandem in the league...not sure how I feel about that yet.

Bullock can't guard anybody.

Luke should be back by our nightmare December stretch, to help us continue our climb toward 4th-5th seed. where we currently sit, for now.  Boston is looking vulnerable and Dre is playing well, but Blake is I think second in the league in minutes...sheesh

Ratings: Pace: 100.5 (21) OffRtg: 108.5 (14) DefRtg: 107.7 (13) NetRtg: +0.7 (15)... SCARY But they are playing as a team, have figured out how to get stops when they need them, and seem to be in the process of rediscovering
Pistons DNA.  The wing Junk Yard Dogs (Bruce Brown and Stanimal) appear to be just what the doctor ordered for playoff basketball.

[Oracle]

Tom Brady: Michigan 'Can't Win a Big Game' After Loss vs. Ohio State'

[BallinD]

It's different now with these Pistons, and I wanna believe that... except for my favorite whipping boy, Weggie. 4-15 from three vs Suns...are you focking kidding me Focker!?  

Meanwhile Bullock is 2-5 and yeah, after a few decent-good games (under control Weggie for the most part) it went straight to his head.  What is it gonna take for this fool to wake up?!  Pass to GR3 or Bullock who are demonstrably better 3pt shooters than you.  In what world is 15 3s from a career 31.8 3 pt shooter who is shooting 30 percent this year acceptable.

Hell, we got the win, so where's the beef?  Well, according to NBA.com we have the 2nd easiest strength of schedule rating in the association.  That is about to change and damnit Weggie's machinations won't fly as we start to play better teams more consistently. Easiest: 1. Toronto, 2. Detroit, 3. Dallas

Other Stuff:

Dre & Blake are the number one post up tandem in the league...not sure how I feel about that yet.

Bullock can't guard anybody.

Luke should be back by our nightmare December stretch, to help us continue our climb toward 4th-5th seed. where we currently sit, for now.  Boston is looking vulnerable and Dre is playing well, but Blake is I think second in the league in minutes...sheesh

Ratings: Pace: 100.5 (21) OffRtg: 108.5 (14) DefRtg: 107.7 (13) NetRtg: +0.7 (15)... SCARY But they are playing as a team, have figured out how to get stops when they need them, and seem to be in the process of rediscovering
Pistons DNA.  The wing Junk Yard Dogs (Bruce Brown and Stanimal) appear to be just what the doctor ordered for playoff basketball.

[Murph]

Another good win last night.  The Pistons are beginning to feast on this 6 game homestand.

I'm really starting to like Dwaye Casey as a coach.  And you know what I like most about him?  He seems to figure out what every player does best, and then he allows those players to do what they are best at.  In other words, he allows the players to maximize their potential.

For example, instead of having RJ be a ball dominant PG, who over dribbles, Casey plays Jackson off the ball most of the time and uses him primarily as a scorer.  He figured out that Blake Griffin is best used as a Lebron-style point forward.  Now let's hope Griffin stays healthy for the whole season.

As Oracle pointed out in great detail yesterday, Casey figured out that Drummond is best at rebounding and protecting in the paint.  As a result, Drummond is having one of his best seasons and his blocks are finally up.

He brings SJ off the bench as a defensive specialist, which is what he does best, and as an ancillary benefit, Johnson's shooting percentage has finally improved. Ditto for Bruce Brown.

He encourages Robinson, Bullock and Galloway to shoot, which they are starting to do very well.  In fact, GRIII and Galloway are enjoying the best shooting of their careers so far this season, based on their true shooting %,

And Casey tries to get as many players in any one game, and get as many players contributing on a regular basis as realistically possible.    By my count, Casey is maximizing the potential of no less than 9 or 10 players in the rotation, and when Kennard finally gets healthy, that number is likely to reach 11.

[Sparma]

A solid, grind it out, win.

We got lucky on a bit of a homer call on what became Warren's ejection.

Nice to see Blake play such a balanced game, racking up the assists (11), before tallying points in the fourth.

Good play off the bench by Galloway and Johnson.

Still, Booker's so much more skilled than Johnson that that pick continues to boggle the mind.  Was it that SJ was the superior athlete, maybe able to bully even college kids?  Fantastic in HS, nice first year in college.  The Phoenix GM opines that Booker's have been surrounded by so much talent at Kentucky may have made it hard to stand out, affecting his draft status.  But a local kid, supremely skilled offensively, said to be a good character guy?  Dang, what could have been.  Keith Langlois keeps saying that Donovan Mitchell exploded post-college, making the Kennard pick understandable.  Maybe.  But passing on Booker was a huge mistake.  Oh well.

I was thinking that one advantage of being mediocre is that individual losses don't hurt much.  (There's just a dull realization that a championship is well out of reach).  As opposed to that Ohio State beat down, that really did hurt!  Is it possible that something good comes of it, and UM gets a cutting edge O next year?

[Oracle]

These are the games good teams have to win, and it's harder than it seems.

The two previous hottest teams in the NBA, the Lakers and Houston didn't fare as well.

Houston, winners of 5 straight and 8/10 before we beat them, figured they could sit Chris Paul against the lowly Cavs... Oops, that didn't work so well.

The Lakers winners of 8 out of their last 11 and killing the Magic in the first half, let up and in spite of late game heroics by LeBron and KCP, the fall at home.

These games are by no means given and you have to play your game... for the whole game.

You can have off games, but you can never take a game off.

This was an important win for this team because a loss would have almost invalidated the great win over Houston. 

I felt like Stanley's big 3 when we were up 100-91 shut the door. There was plenty of time for the Suns to come back, but the mood and flow of the game felt like that was it... it's over.

Good win!

[Oracle]

It happened with Sheed pairing with Big Ben, the combination was greater than the sum of the two. They both increased the performance and effect of each other and brought us to a new level of force in the NBA.

Look at the Lakers. They aren't anywhere as good as they will be once the LeBron effect fully takes hold, an unquestioned star does that for a team.

I said this last year, to a lot of laughs, but Blake is doing the same thing here. We've never had an unquestioned star on this team in years, but now, nobody is confused about who the new sheriff in town is, it's Blake Griffin and nobody questions it.

Drummond's rise is of course due to his hard work, but the effect of having another big man, one with unquestioned talent, drives him to a new level, and it has manifested itself in a surprising way.

Drummond for years felt that he needed to be something he wasn't. He wanted a back to the basket game, he wanted a midrange game, he wanted a 3 point game... WHY? Because the team needed it and he thought he had to get there for this team to be a success.

Enter Blake Griffin and all of a sudden, all of the things he actually does well is all this team needs, other than him getting better defensively, and that's happening as well.

The reality was that he only needed to add two things to his game, ability to knock down FT's... DONE! Become a rim protector... In Progress!

Reggie Jackson has been tamed, Casey demands that he not be a ball hog for 80% of the game, and he's adjusting, but it takes time for him to get it all together. One game is a nice start, and hopefully he'll figure out when he needs to do what he did against Houston and when to be a shooter or distributor.

The transformation is just starting! As Lemonpen said, consistency has to start somewhere and the same goes for this transformation, it all starts with the first baby steps.

If the coach is good and the leaders lead properly, these steps become routine, giving the team the foundation to reach for higher levels of success.

[Oracle]

WTF!!!!!!!!!!

For you to rip them apart, tell us how they spend too much money on that program to keep coming up short.

How Harbaugh is a loser and Michigan chokes in the big ones...b

[WTF]

If you had to lose why not in a close nail biter  WTF!!!!!!!

[WTF]

WTF!!!!!!!!!!

[Oracle]

Michigan scores two touchdowns in 6 seconds!!!

Yes you read that right, 6 effing seconds, but fail to get the 2 point conversion, to make it 21-19 Ohio State!

Unfortunately, the defense lets Ohio State run right down the field through a combination of silly Michigan penalties and some good Ohio plays.

Still, they come back and end the half 24-19.

GO BLUE!!!

[lemonpen]

Reason 1: Houston is a good team. This is a difficult team to beat, and we've played them tough for two straight games.

Reason 2: Houston is an offensive powerhouse. The can score in bunches, but because they're so good offensively, it says a lot about where the Pistons are defensively.

Reason 3: Houston, unlike a lot of Western Teams, plays very good defense. Once you get past Harden, who did better than usual defensively in these two games, the rest of the team is very good defensively. Because they are, it says a lot about our ability to execute and focus down the stretch to beat them.

This is seriously a solid win for our guys, something this team can build on and I think they will!

It comes on the heels of another impressive victory. Consistency has to begin somewhere.

[Oracle]

Reason 1: Houston is a good team. This is a difficult team to beat, and we've played them tough for two straight games.

Reason 2: Houston is an offensive powerhouse. The can score in bunches, but because they're so good offensively, it says a lot about where the Pistons are defensively.

Reason 3: Houston, unlike a lot of Western Teams, plays very good defense. Once you get past Harden, who did better than usual defensively in these two games, the rest of the team is very good defensively. Because they are, it says a lot about our ability to execute and focus down the stretch to beat them.

This is seriously a solid win for our guys, something this team can build on and I think they will!

[Oracle]

I’m sure I know better, but I’m really starting to like this team a bit, though I refuse to choke down the kool aid.

When BB can lock down a conniving flopper like The Beardo, I have to smile.  When Blake is clutch and physical and fearless I smile.  When Dre blocks 5 shots, four on The Beardo, I grin.  

When Weggie actually does something to help us win, I think well, maybe there is a Big 3, then I slap myself out of the dream.  

Too soon. Sample Size. “Consistency” Casey says, and I nod in agreement, but it’s fun to dream.

@Ballin, that's sage advice, and I can see that you're going through a lot of what many of us are... The battle between the head and the heart!

Of course you're right, but DAMN, after a win like tonight, the dreaded word potential is bursting all over the place, and old Homer gets to come out and party!

Dreams of Brown getting minutes and getting better, Kennard coming back and turning into that 40% 3 point shooter with the ability to score midrange and get to the rim, Bullock catching fire and Reggie regaining his form but this time using his head... DAMN!!!

@Wise - I really didn't think your complaints were that bad, and as I recall I defended you quite a bit. You're right to keep some of us from getting too giddy, but I think you miss a lot of the fun if you can't get behind the team with a little faith... after all, if we can't show them some love when warranted, who else will.

[BallinD]

I’m sure I know better, but I’m really starting to like this team a bit, though I refuse to choke down the kool aid.

When BB can lock down a conniving flopper like The Beardo, I have to smile. When Blake is clutch and physical and fearless I smile. When Dre blocks 5 shots, four on The Beardo, I grin.

When Weggie actually does something to help us win, I think well, maybe there is a Big 3, then I slap myself out of the dream.

Too soon. Sample Size. “Consistency” Casey says, and I nod in agreement, but it’s fun to dream.

[WTF]

You complained a lot about the Pistons while they were winning 6 straight ECF's.

Yes I did about one thing and one person (Joe Dumars) there was hardly anything to complain about the team  beyond Joe not getting decent back ups at the PF and center positions.  Joe destroyed what should have been a dynasty  .

If I remember correctly I defended the team while everyone else complained.

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