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Go West Young Man part Duex...

Post  Oracle on Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:39 pm

Lemon wrote:But, the cat has already made his home in La La Land, and is establishing his beyond bball future in the west coast entertainment industry. I think it is better than 50-50 Bron finishes his career there.
I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but the rumor is that Paul George wants to get to the Lakers as well... could we see LeBron & George hooking up?
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Go West Young Man

Post  lemonpen on Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:18 pm

cool breeze wrote:Labron James has one  year left in his contract. He already left Cleveland once. Is he the type of player who will not want out at the first indication that his team doesn't have enough good players to win it all? Will he leave Irving to pick up the pieces or go for more glory. I am not placing any judgments on Labron but chances are from looking at past history that James is a guy who will jump ship very quickly if given the opportunity. Billups or any person who decided to take the GM position in Cleveland is in a tough spot. Kevin Love already feels that Labron wants to replace him. Can JR Smith shoot the ball the same way he did in the finals next year? How about the dependance on Richard Jefferson who is moving closer to age 40 now? It appears that Cleveland has had their run. They are as stuck in the mud as our Pistons financially but still might mop the floor with every Eastern conference team just by having James and Irving. Labron will want Billups to pull off a miracle. Will some other NBA team be the farm team this summer to help Cleveland win it all. If that happens we will all know the NBA is rigged and corrupt. Cleveland will be hard to beat by any Eastern Conference team next year just by bringing back the same crew regardless of how old they might be. Then things most likely will fall apart as Labron hunts for another team.

While Cleveland is still on top in the Eastern conference our Pistons are in a horrible financial position with a team full of dysfunctional players who most likely will be in the 12th position in the draft next summer. Does Stan Van Gundy have regrets? Could he predict that jackson and Drummond would play so poorly? I don't think so but I cannot understand what SVG was basing his decisions on when he signed Boban and Leuer for outragious money. Boban was a mop up player for the Spurs. While a lot of Piston fans believe he got screwed being out of the rotation, the truth is Boban just cannot keep up on defense with the fast paced style in the NBA. Fans are justified though in being pissed off that he didn't get more playing time based on the fact that Drummond is perhaps the worst starting center defender in the NBA. He is the worst free throw shooter. So compared to Drummond, Boban might have been a much better option last season because Boban can score. Drummond's minutes based on the weak effort he gave and his bonehead mistakes on defense should have been restricted to not more than 15 minutes a game. Boban should have played in every game and had all those minutes that Drummond faked playing the game. Meanwhile Leuer was well known in the Western conference has having a weak upper body and guy who gives up a lot of 2nd chance opportunities because of his inability of securing defensive rebounding. Leuer matched up with Drummond is certain death for any team. Leuer was the superior defender of the two which is a really scary thought.

SVG is in a pickle and he knows it. Piston management has been very quiet over the past 24 hours. Before when that happened something big happened. Could it be that SVG will pull the plug on Andre Drummond and lose that huge salary and open up new opportunities down the road for this team? I damn well hope so and if the news comes today, I will be a very happy Piston fan.


Cool, the very connotation of "jumping ship" IS passing judgment in an old fashioned don't want to come right out and say it kind of way.

But, the cat has already made his home in La La Land, and is establishing his beyond bball future in the west coast entertainment industry. I think it is better than 50-50 Bron finishes his career there.
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Good luck Chauncey. You will need it.

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:43 pm

Labron James has one year left in his contract. He already left Cleveland once. Is he the type of player who will not want out at the first indication that his team doesn't have enough good players to win it all? Will he leave Irving to pick up the pieces or go for more glory. I am not placing any judgments on Labron but chances are from looking at past history that James is a guy who will jump ship very quickly if given the opportunity. Billups or any person who decided to take the GM position in Cleveland is in a tough spot. Kevin Love already feels that Labron wants to replace him. Can JR Smith shoot the ball the same way he did in the finals next year? How about the dependance on Richard Jefferson who is moving closer to age 40 now? It appears that Cleveland has had their run. They are as stuck in the mud as our Pistons financially but still might mop the floor with every Eastern conference team just by having James and Irving. Labron will want Billups to pull off a miracle. Will some other NBA team be the farm team this summer to help Cleveland win it all. If that happens we will all know the NBA is rigged and corrupt. Cleveland will be hard to beat by any Eastern Conference team next year just by bringing back the same crew regardless of how old they might be. Then things most likely will fall apart as Labron hunts for another team.

While Cleveland is still on top in the Eastern conference our Pistons are in a horrible financial position with a team full of dysfunctional players who most likely will be in the 12th position in the draft next summer. Does Stan Van Gundy have regrets? Could he predict that jackson and Drummond would play so poorly? I don't think so but I cannot understand what SVG was basing his decisions on when he signed Boban and Leuer for outragious money. Boban was a mop up player for the Spurs. While a lot of Piston fans believe he got screwed being out of the rotation, the truth is Boban just cannot keep up on defense with the fast paced style in the NBA. Fans are justified though in being pissed off that he didn't get more playing time based on the fact that Drummond is perhaps the worst starting center defender in the NBA. He is the worst free throw shooter. So compared to Drummond, Boban might have been a much better option last season because Boban can score. Drummond's minutes based on the weak effort he gave and his bonehead mistakes on defense should have been restricted to not more than 15 minutes a game. Boban should have played in every game and had all those minutes that Drummond faked playing the game. Meanwhile Leuer was well known in the Western conference has having a weak upper body and guy who gives up a lot of 2nd chance opportunities because of his inability of securing defensive rebounding. Leuer matched up with Drummond is certain death for any team. Leuer was the superior defender of the two which is a really scary thought.

SVG is in a pickle and he knows it. Piston management has been very quiet over the past 24 hours. Before when that happened something big happened. Could it be that SVG will pull the plug on Andre Drummond and lose that huge salary and open up new opportunities down the road for this team? I damn well hope so and if the news comes today, I will be a very happy Piston fan.

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NBA TV's draft predictions

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:11 am

U was surprised to find out that this crew of experts with NBATV has Lauri Markkanen going past the Pistons pick to number 13. That is insane. Two of the experts said Markkanen stated that there is no dispute that Markkanen is the best big man scorer including accuracy beyond the 3 point line of any other player and one of the two best shooters in the entire draft. But then they agreed that Markkanen is not a very good defender so it is believed that New York will pass on him at the 8th spot and Detroit will draft according to need at 2 guard and draft Kennard. After watching Markkanen play in every game this season and seeing him in person in every home game, there is no doubt in my mind that he is one of the best big men ever to play in the PAC12. His basketball IQ is off the charts high. Maybe scouts watched a game where Markkanen was guarding a small forward. He actually defended well at 3 different positions - center, power forward and small forward. He patched up the holes in Arizona's defense and was the most solid defender in the paint as his team had an extremely weak starting center in Duson Ristic. If Detroit passes on Markkanen it will be a huge mistake regardless of the roster having Leuer and Harris. Markkanen is a solidly built 7 footer who can hit the 3 ball, shoot the midrange jump shot, and drive the basketball. I really think that the Knicks will draft him and pass on Frank Ntilikina.

NBA TV experts have Mitchell going to the Hornets at number 11. Monk drops way down to number 9 in their mock draft. Dennis Smith is listed in the 6th spot which I believe is a big mistake. Smith is one of those guys who you can't trust if you are a GM. He has all the tools to be great but might be another Andre Drummond because he has no interest in playing even average defense. The steal in this draft might go to the Bucks as NBA TV has them selecting Harry Giles.

As of today, I am not satisfied with Kennard as ever becoming a really good 2 NBA quality 2 guard but really like him and would really be excited if he is picked and can hold his own on defense. My pick for this draft is Harry Giles. If his knees are OK, this guy can be a super star. Detroit moves Drummond if not before the draft then before the trade deadline. If the Bucks get him then I would hope Detroit would try to pick off one of their big men in a trade. I see that Monroe has picked up his option and will return to Milwaukee.

My dream would be for Detroit to somehow make a trade with the Kings and get their pick. Imagine Fox playing point guard for the Pistons. This guy is dynamite. Incredible quick feet and high basketball IQ makes him really special along with Tatum if Jayson can stay healthy. There will be some happy fans today.

Detroit could have been right there at the 5th or 6th spot if Piston management had not had their heads buried in the sand two weeks after Reggie Jackson returned from his injury. That is when Ellenson should have been installed in the rotation with Leuer and Reggie going to the bench. Morris comes off the bench and Stanley Johnson starts for the remainder of the season. We lose just enough games to move up and get a super star player. Ellenson and Johnson become key members of the team moving forward. As of now, Ellenson has no experience and Johnson is a fringe player. There is no way that Morris should be the starting small forward this coming season. Harris should get that job. But SVG loves the Morris contract and might be a bit afraid of him as well so Morris will most likely be the starting small forward for at least one more season. Too bad because it won't work well again and Morris will be out of gas by January but the coach will ignore it like he ignored Andre Drummond's lack of interest at about that same time period. Those two players might be effective again up until the first part of January or up to Christmas Eve. The coach has a conveniently short memory.

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Best players in this draft are....

Post  cool breeze on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:29 pm

My crystal ball tells me the players who might become super stars could be Tatum, Josh Jackson, and Fox. After watching a lot of Fultz I am not impressed but then again the NBA is a freak show. He seems very selfish and wasn't a really solid defender. He was the scorer on a bad team. But the experts must know something that I don't. I have watched Ball at least 6 times this past season and three of those games involved Arizona vs UCLA. Arizona beat UCLA 2 out of 3 times. In the PAC 12 tournament it seemed that the Arizona guards had Ball's number and targeted him a lot because he did a lot of gambling on defense. Is he quick enough for the NBA game? Can he become effective on offense and develop a mid range game? His jump shot is slow developing as he moves the ball across his body before releasing. But Ball does have a fantastic basketball IQ and sees the court exceptionally well. But Tatum is a real stud. Jackson seems to be talented in every area. Who knows maybe the best of the crop might come from the 6 to 10 spot but not likely. If Detroit keeps the 12th pick I like Mitchell a lot. He defends and could become a real good offensive player. Boy do I like Fox. I think he might be the best point guard in the draft.

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Most recent trade talk involving Drummond and Jordan

Post  cool breeze on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:09 pm

looks like the Suns might be in play for Jordan but what if this could be a three way deal? I would love moving Drummond of course but I hate to give up the 12th pick unless Detroit can somehow get one of the Suns picks. The Suns want to lose the Brandon Knight contract. Knight has had his minutes limited because of his slow recovery from a significant injury two years ago along with a big influx of high end guards. But what I hear in Arizona is that Knight is getting his mojo back and has been really dedicating himself to improvement. They also have a high draft pick. The Clippers appear to be interested in Drummond to encourage some of their star players to stay. We would get Jordan for one year and lose Drummond's contract.In that year we could find out how good the remaining Piston players really are. Jordan fits the mold of a Piston big man. He is a shot blocker and paint ruler. If somehow there is a three way deal and the Clippers do not want Knight, I think he would be an upgrade over KCP. And although he has a big contract it wouldn't be anywhere close to what Pope is demanding. What I like about Knight is the fact that he is a top notch defender and is really smart. His 3 point shooting so far has not been great but maybe that can get a lot better. Knight is a solid mid range shooter and has become a good play maker for the Suns.

If this is more than just talk I would be very excited. The team gets a lot better with Jordan.

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Whew!!!

Post  BallinD on Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:17 pm

Good to hear we don't need no stinking extra picks, per SVB.  Our roster is already loaded so no need to even kick the tires, since we're already set with such studs as Hilliard, Gbinije, SJ, that currently crowd our roster.  

SVG: "We've got roster numbers that actually this is a good year to be looking at undrafted guys that could be players that could possibly play themselves into something," Bower said. "But a second-round pick this year is not something from a roster standpoint that is a real need for us because of the number of returning players we have (how many are any good, Stan?). So, it's lined up real well. It would have to be something unique."

The Sixers have four second-round selections and the Celtics have three.
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Ballin

Post  Oracle on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:11 pm

Ballin wrote:Cool: Even though it is smart to stand pat for now, to be honest and objective the overall score for the Piston front office team has to be an F. I give that score for their failure to keep as many draft picks as they could have as well as failing to see the hand writing on the wall in early March that this team's chemistry had fallen so far down into the toilet that they had no chance of making the playoffs regardless of how badly some of the other Eastern conference teams played. The coaching staff should have taken action in early March or late Feb. and played Ellenson, Johnson, and perhaps 2 D-League players to help the team find some better team chemistry and also secure a position in the top 6. That could have been easily achieved and it would have been a lot more fun for the fans to watch the younger guys struggle on the hardwood. Were at least 2 assistant Piston coaches involved in helping to create some of the bad team chemistry? How did the offensive coaches impact the strategy used in the Piston offense relating to point guard ball dominance, lack of player or ball movement, failure of playing both sides of the court, and total lack of screening by the starting players off the ball? Stan Van Gundy needs to be called out for his lack of leadership in this area. He can't just be hiring his friends and keep them for 3 seasons without any consequences can he? This should be Stan Van Gundy's last season if things do not turn around.
This is very true, SVG does need to be called out for this and more.

Last season was more a coaching induced collapse than anything else. SVG and his assistants need to really get their heads back into the game, we got nothing from the bench in terms of leadership to help the players.

Yes the players have their share, but IMO, the assistants are either less than average or SVG isn't listening to them, take your pick, both situations reek!

If they recognize this, I'm good, if not, we have a serious problem.

FYI, the D-League is no longer, it's called the G-League now.
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Fast Moving Events

Post  BallinD on Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:34 pm

I wish Chauncey was interviewing to be our GM. If, as it appears, NBA trends and modern offensive principals, ability to make in game adjustments and use the roster to your advantage have passed SVG by.  Chauncey would get SVG some help on the coaching staff and a proper big man coach for Dre, but that ship may have sailed as well.

I see they traded Dwight Howard, the Andre Drummond prototype (D12) for a bag of chips and a Mountain Dew.  I guess it is safe to say Andre's trade value is in the toilet as well.  He's a bit better at rebounding, but his rim protection D, and FTs are worse.  He's younger, but Dre's upside has probably been reached.  Troubling, but I would take a pick for him and roll with Baynes and Boban and maybe Zach Collins. Donovan Mitchell or Luke Kennard to complement him.  

I wish we had another pick or two. In this NBA, picks are the gold standard of assetts.

I wish when I watch and listen to SVG explain himself I didn't get the distinct feeling he is scared shitless and on the defensive as if he knows his days are numbered and that he is out of his depth in this new NBA where it takes more than a simple pick and roll to win games and it takes more than riding the same horses into the ground to escape mediocrity.

Cool: Even though it is smart to stand pat for now, to be honest and objective the overall score for the Piston front office team has to be an F. I give that score for their failure to keep as many draft picks as they could have as well as failing to see the hand writing on the wall in early March that this team's chemistry had fallen so far down into the toilet that they had no chance of making the playoffs regardless of how badly some of the other Eastern conference teams played. The coaching staff should have taken action in early March or late Feb. and played Ellenson, Johnson, and perhaps 2 D-League players to help the team find some better team chemistry and also secure a position in the top 6. That could have been easily achieved and it would have been a lot more fun for the fans to watch the younger guys struggle on the hardwood. Were at least 2 assistant Piston coaches involved in helping to create some of the bad team chemistry? How did the offensive coaches impact the strategy used in the Piston offense relating to point guard ball dominance, lack of player or ball movement, failure of playing both sides of the court, and total lack of screening by the starting players off the ball? Stan Van Gundy needs to be called out for his lack of leadership in this area. He can't just be hiring his friends and keep them for 3 seasons without any consequences can he? This should be Stan Van Gundy's last season if things do not turn around.


Last edited by BallinD on Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : woops)
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Since Fennis isn't here, the talking heads will have to suffice...

Post  Oracle on Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:06 pm

Here was a successful trade for laughs!


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Deus/ Fennis

Post  Sparma on Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:52 pm

I hope your Fennis comment solicits his rentree, Deus, showing us all how it's really done. But thank you. One difference between him and me is that he seemed to take everything in good humor, whereas I'm calm often enough, but can get pissy at the drop of the hat.

And where the heck is WTF? This forum really needs him.

Back to reading how we can land a superstar, Jimmy Butler in the latest story.

deusXango wrote:"At 12, they’re hoping to at least land a rotational piece that can provide some cheap labor as they figure out the direction they’re heading in the future."-Piston Powered

WTF?! After 3 years of tinkering with the roster and wildly spending Tom Gores money, not to mention flirting with fans emotions, SVG hasn't figured out the direction he's moving the team in the future? Say it ain't so.

Sparma has a sense of humor that brings to mind Fennis Dembow. lol
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Most experts do not rate Russell as a high quality player based on his play with the Lakers

Post  cool breeze on Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:43 pm

I for one am not upset that Detroit did not get Russell. Maybe he will be great someday but why be upset, He was a disappointment for his team in the NCAA tournament and for the life of me I couldn't understand at the time why so many so called experts had him as a sure thing in the NBA. He is far from a sure thing now too as a potential solid starting NBA player. The Lakers made a great move and I am happy Detroit didn't bite on a bad deal.

I have been extremely critical of this Piston management team. Perhaps I am wrong. Who could predict that Johnson would have such a tough year? It was hoped that he could take Pope's spot and therefore not even contemplate paying KCP crazy money. Who could predict that Andre Drummond would tank this past season? Was it because of his nose issue? The reason why I concentrate so much on Drummond is the fact that his signing has screwed this franchise for many years unless he has a change of heart. Who would sign a mega deal and then stab Stan Van Gundy in the back? One would have expected and I am sure SVG did, that Andre would have arrived in training camp with much less body fat and be in a high basketball character mode knowing he was being counted on to be a paint protector last season. SVG said it before the season started. He was not worried so much about Andre's free throw shooting, With the addition of Leuer and knowing that Harris has difficulty guarding power forwards, the head coach was counting on a big time effort and improvement relating to defensive rebounding, shot blocking and fast reaction time when any opponent decided to enter the Piston paint. I think that the coaching staff was in shock relating to what happened to Andre Drummond in the months of December, January, February, March, and April. That is 5 months of time that Drummond basically took off from work on the defensive end. I am angry with Piston management for not identifying Drummond's fundamental problems that should have been identified before they signed him to that contract but as I am trying to be objective and give the benefit of the doubt to SVG, the Drummond tanking could not have been predicted by anyone. I didn't think myself that he would play that badly and cause so many chemistry issues with his teammates. After the players only meeting, I have my doubts that no other teammate of his with the exception of Jackson had any trust in him at all. He betrayed his teammates and there is no other way to say it. Now this summer Andre Drummond's value has gone from moderately high last summer to moderately low this summer. So the contract does not match the player based on last season's results. Remember what all GMs now say about future draft prospects? Character is huge. They all worry about players doing exactly what Andre Drummond did to Piston management this past season. He failed to give the coaching staff or his teammates what they most needed and didn't even try to become a better defender or defensive glass demon everyone expected. Instead Andre went the opposite way and decided to work all summer long on his baseline hook shot. Notice his most embarrassing moments were spent at the free throw line last year which got the most attention. Lack of effort on defense should have received most of the attention. We needed the head coach to call out Andre more than simply saying that he needed to be "more engaged".

Now it appears that Piston management has done everything they could do to move Andre Drummond short of giving him away. Therefore, I am moving over to the Oracle camp for now. Maybe it is best to pick up the pieces and hope for the best next year. Maybe a miracle will occur and Drummond will be forced to "become more engaged" with the needs of the team. Maybe he will have matured after becoming adjusted to scoring such a beautiful contract. That would be hard for anyone to digest. You finally have it made. Nobody can make you do anything you don't want to do. maybe Andre will get tired of that juvenile attitude and want to be remembered as a real NBA player. He has shortcomings with his lack of basketball IQ and quick recognition skills but he can make up for mistakes by giving a huge effort by not giving up on plays after he makes mistakes. He is extremely athletic. If he decides to sacrifice and get himself in top notch shape ( he has never done that ) which will mean that he needs to gain more muscle and much less body fat, then Andre Drummond could help save the day and turn around this team in a big way. We will know next season. So I am with Oracle in waiting it out and hoping for the best now that he trade value is so damn low. The total focus needs to be on Andre Drummond. He is the difference maker. No other player on the team can make an impact like Drummond either way he decides to play the game of basketball.

I am going to place my faith in Stan Van Gundy and Jeff Brower to make a sound decision tomorrow. I hope they do not trade the pick unless they can get somebody like Patrick Beverley. I have my doubts that Boban can keep up on the defensive end with the 2nd unit next year but I see no potential draft prospect who could step in and play the back up role successfully next season. Baynes has left a big hole with his defensive ability. Maybe Detroit will resign him though. So if Detroit keeps the draft pick, I hope one of the guards listed above the 12th spot slips down to us. I would prefer a skill player who has good defensive ability. We just can't afford to bring in another weak defensive player. Please somehow do something to secure a 2nd round pick. I see a lot of good players that could help this team who will be available in the 2nd round. What a year to not have a 2nd round pick.

Even though it is smart to stand pat for now, to be honest and objective the overall score for the Piston front office team has to be an F. I give that score for their failure to keep as many draft picks as they could have as well as failing to see the hand writing on the wall in early March that this team's chemistry had fallen so far down into the toilet that they had no chance of making the playoffs regardless of how badly some of the other Eastern conference teams played. The coaching staff should have taken action in early March or late Feb. and played Ellenson, Johnson, and perhaps 2 D-League players to help the team find some better team chemistry and also secure a position in the top 6. That could have been easily achieved and it would have been a lot more fun for the fans to watch the younger guys struggle on the hardwood. Were at least 2 assistant Piston coaches involved in helping to create some of the bad team chemistry? How did the offensive coaches impact the strategy used in the Piston offense relating to point guard ball dominance, lack of player or ball movement, failure of playing both sides of the court, and total lack of screening by the starting players off the ball? Stan Van Gundy needs to be called out for his lack of leadership in this area. He can't just be hiring his friends and keep them for 3 seasons without any consequences can he? This should be Stan Van Gundy's last season if things do not turn around.


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??????????????!

Post  deusXango on Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:03 pm

"At 12, they’re hoping to at least land a rotational piece that can provide some cheap labor as they figure out the direction they’re heading in the future."-Piston Powered

WTF?! After 3 years of tinkering with the roster and wildly spending Tom Gores money, not to mention flirting with fans emotions, SVG hasn't figured out the direction he's moving the team in the future? Say it ain't so.

Sparma has a sense of humor that brings to mind Fennis Dembow. lol
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What happened?

Post  Sparma on Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:03 am

I know PP speculates that the Pistons might be passing for an even bigger and better deal, but my take's that they just couldn't come to an deal desirable to both.

We know: it could not have been a straight up Russell for #12 pick according to NBA rules.

We know: in the trade that did happen, unloading the Mozgov contract was massive (with Lopez returning on an expiring), setting up the signing of a max FA (George?) next year.

We know: Detroit doesn't have a comparable expiring deal to allow the Lakers to offload Mozgov on us.

My guess as to what happened (roughly):

SVG: We'll take Russell and Mozgov for our #12, Reggie, and Boban.

Magic: Nah, we're good. But we'll take Drummond and your #12 for Russell and Mozgov.

SVG: Nah.

Magic: How about just Drummond for Mozgov and #12?

SVG: I need to take this other call.

Magic: So do I.



I
Oracle wrote:
http://pistonpowered.com/2017/06/20/detroit-pistons-passed-russell-can-glean/ wrote:

The Detroit Pistons could have had D’Angelo Russell if they wanted him, according to reports. Instead, they passed on the opportunity. What does this tell us about the Pistons’ draft plans, if anything?




The Detroit Pistons had their chance at the all-star caliber player they have been coveting for so long. All offseason, we have heard about the Pistons desire to “win now”, and willingness to trade their first round pick to acquire a veteran player who can help the team win now.

The Pistons finally got their chance to land both of these criteria, and instead, they turned down the opportunity.
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Something is going on...

Post  Oracle on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:35 am

http://pistonpowered.com/2017/06/20/detroit-pistons-passed-russell-can-glean/ wrote:

The Detroit Pistons could have had D’Angelo Russell if they wanted him, according to reports. Instead, they passed on the opportunity. What does this tell us about the Pistons’ draft plans, if anything?



The Detroit Pistons had their chance at the all-star caliber player they have been coveting for so long. All offseason, we have heard about the Pistons desire to “win now”, and willingness to trade their first round pick to acquire a veteran player who can help the team win now.

The Pistons finally got their chance to land both of these criteria, and instead, they turned down the opportunity.
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Idle thoughts from an idle mind

Post  deusXango on Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:11 am

I'm not an animal hater, but mutha fu@k talking about SVG's psychotic dog, Eastwood, when we should be talking basketball. To me that makes as much sense as talking about granddad sitting on the front porch, in a daze, or Paul parrot in a sh!t filled cage, etc.; let home be at home. We've got a draft coming up and that's a hot emotional subject with most fans. There's some key decisions that must be made concerning the Pistons future, but it seems that the brain trust is in the same stand still posture they've been in since the trade deadline. Who wants the #12 pick?!

I've been reading some statements about the S & T process and there's a lot that concerns me about fans being mislead about how that works, i.e. team "A" signs a RFA of team "B" to a max contract doesn't mean that team "B" looses its right to match. If the offer sheet tendered to the RFA is in truly good faith, then a dialogue can be opened between the two GM's. If team "A" really wants the player and team "B" determines matching that offer is not in its best interest, a S & T can be worked out...that player doesn't have to option of just walking and team "B" doesn't have to bid against itself. This isn't a Greg Monroe situation, speaking of which, KCP can sign a qualifying offer with the Pistons guaranteeing his ability to sign as an UFA next year or sign a long range contract with us for what we're paying. But then there's the agent element and my ignorance to be considered.

Is SVG still operating with the fans full confidence behind him? It's hard for me to believe that so many knowledgeable fans, who're passionate about the home team, and have witnessed quality coaching, can be so gullible. They didn't come any more stubborn or controlling than Rick Carlisle, but he was a winner in Detroit with a less talented team. He also played the players he was given and won, but we have a coach who has the ability to pick the players who'll play for him, but can't get any obvious respect or consistency from them, in short SVG can't coach his hand-picked players! Rick was an ex-player, who did SVG play for? I don't recall Rick throwing his players under the bus either.

Since we have pieces that can be moved for better pieces or pieces that fit, when will we be moving either Drummond, Jackson, or Leuer? I mean once we sign them, their value is universally established, right? A number of fans have been bashing Drummond, but now Atlanta has traded for D. Howard is the reason I ask...if there's a better fitting piece available, now seems the time to go after him or fall further behind because of Drummonds inability to make FT's! We've missed on the Russell trade, with the Lakers, but does the Rubio trade still have any legs? Can't we even do a pennies on the dollar trade for Leuer to free up the money to resign KCP? The best we can do is trade the #12 pick for a veteran? On second thought, let's talk about Eastwood, he's more exciting than talking local basketball.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:13 pm

Oracle wrote:BTW, the full skinny on the deal is this,

Lakers get: Lopez and the 27th pick, leaving with that pick and #2.
Nets get: Russell & Mozgov

The Lakers still want another pick in the top 12, the question is what else will they part with or what 3rd party to add to the deal.

Time for us to put on our dealing hats!!!

Just checking latest trade rumors and there is nothing relating to Detroit. It appears fans will have to face reality that none of the problem players will be leaving. Now will we trade the pick as our only option to make any news? Will the owner come up with some cash to buy one of Philly's 2nd round picks. I would be happy as hell to get a 2nd rounder. Even Eastwood appears to be upset with the lack of activity relating to the Pistons.

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Lakers

Post  Oracle on Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:15 pm

BTW, the full skinny on the deal is this,

Lakers get: Lopez and the 27th pick, leaving with that pick and #2.
Nets get: Russell & Mozgov

The Lakers still want another pick in the top 12, the question is what else will they part with or what 3rd party to add to the deal.

Time for us to put on our dealing hats!!!
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Lopez

Post  Oracle on Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:08 pm

deusXango wrote:
Oracle wrote:Report: Los Angeles Lakers trade D'Angelo Russell to Brooklyn Nets for Brook Lopez
This is heartbreaking news...I'd have hoped we could've done a S & T for Lopez, should the Nets go all in for KCP. Now we may see what could've been with Russell and KCP in the backcourt, only not in a Pistons uniform.
He's injured a lot, just less than our local poster child for never playing.

But the Nets made a smart move to jump start their club. They will have the money to sign KCP outright, they don't need the S&T route, which is why they're the ones forcing us to sign him or lose him for nothing.

Our job is to figure out a way to make them deal.
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Hello Oracle, I thought you were gone.

Post  deusXango on Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:02 pm

Oracle wrote:Report: Los Angeles Lakers trade D'Angelo Russell to Brooklyn Nets for Brook Lopez
This is heartbreaking news...I'd have hoped we could've done a S & T for Lopez, should the Nets go all in for KCP. Now we may see what could've been with Russell and KCP in the backcourt, only not in a Pistons uniform.
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Another thought...

Post  Oracle on Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:01 pm

Now the Nets have assets we may be interested in, a young PG!

Would we S&T KCP for Russell and some other players and a pick?

Or move Reggie for Russel & change?


Last edited by Oracle on Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DX

Post  Oracle on Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:52 pm

If you read the post, we clearly weren't going for a "Who's Right" situation.

We were attempting to establish some foundation for discussion, but your mileage will vary.

BTW, the last time I looked, timing is everything, what do you think the value of Reggie & Drummond would have been before last season?

Nothing is static, except the wind blowing opinions we get a lot of the time.
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Well Russel is off the table...

Post  Oracle on Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:49 pm

Report: Los Angeles Lakers trade D'Angelo Russell to Brooklyn Nets for Brook Lopez
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Talking "tanking" in Philly doesn't allow me to except incompetence in Detroit

Post  deusXango on Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:14 pm

Oracle wrote:You really think things through, and  I'm short on time, so let me get to the first part of post now.

Sparma wrote:You seem quite set on the risks of the Process, while giving little weight to the rewards, which are so striking to many now.  Also, again, the Process is designed to accommodate setbacks, of which there were many in Philly (by contrast, SVG just had to hit on the #8 pick he had because that was conceived as a one time high pick based on a poor record).  Also, it would take a while to pin down just what we're discussing.  Being bad in order to become good is hardly new (maybe that's what the KC A's did, although there seemed to be some special sauce in the scouting that yielded so many top players in short order).  Tanking in the NBA's not unusual, if that just means the front office not trying to improve during an off season in order to get a higher pick.
I'm going to pose my answer as a question because I don't remember anything like that working, but that doesn't mean I remember everything that happened, so I'm asking if anyone else recalls any of this ever working, please chime in.

The reason I never addressed the benefits is because I don't remember anyone benefiting from the tanking process, which, in my recollection is fairly new, I want to say in the last 20 years or so. A professional team should always play their best, if for no other reason, to accurately gauge their strengths and weaknesses. Hell no, don't tank when you're perpetually in the middle.

You mentioned OKC, and they had great success with draft picks, but I don't remember them tanking, they just couldn't win in a tough western conference. They could've won, but the Thunder didn't have the time for all their extraordinary players to mature...management chose to be fiscally responsible, unlike SVG. Durant, Harden, Westbrook, and Ibaka are some of the top players in the NBA today; Reggie ain't one of them, he just played on the Thunder and wasn't anymore than a decent backup.

Philly is a classic example, and they raise a lot of questions about the benefit. Just how many #1 picks, or top 5 picks do you need to make the playoffs in a traditionally weak conference? Why couldn't a team with the talent of last years Pistons win in a "traditionally weak" conference? Oracle you answered this question in your observation about Boston, coming up next.

Boston is a great example of not tanking, but getting great coaching and piling up picks... no tanking involved.

SA is an example, that we could/should have followed of no tanking but staying good, unfortunately, the component I talked about needing, we lost. We lost the coach that guided us and eventually the front office(Mr D) that provided the steady hand. People can keep dismissing the ownership, GM and coaching from the success formula all they want, they're just plain wrong, and Philly will need these to succeed. We have a GM (SVG) who drafts/acquires players that the coach (SVG) won't play. Currently, we seem to be stinking from the head and the players are being defamed for the putrid smell.

So I mentioned this, but not directly, but I see no upside to tanking like that because the benefit takes so many variables to come together correctly that if it does work, it's not repeatable, and thus more luck than anything else.

What SVG is attempting to do is both reliable and repeatable with a smaller risk window because developed pieces will always have value and that value can be moved for either more talented pieces of better fitting ones. Where is the on court evidence that what SVG is attempting and repeatable is working? What are you seeing that Drummond, Jackson, Leuer and KCP (thru S & T) can be moved for more talented pieces or better fitting ones? I'm sure the forum would love to hear the answer to that. Those players (with the exception of KCP) are considered to be "pennies on the dollar" players.

Having said that, I don't reject tanking because if's a valid option when you have no other ways to go. That likely applies to Philly, so I wish them luck unless their success conflicts with ours, LOL!
IMHO that round soundly goes to Sparma!!
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Precedents?

Post  Sparma on Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:06 pm

A lot depends on what's meant, but for a long term, philosophical, commitment to this kind of procedure I can only think of three examples: Philly, the Houston Astros, and the current Cleveland Browns.

I've heard the Astros compared to NBA-style tanking. It's worked for them.

I'm convinced the Browns will turn the corner, but clearly it's way too early to tell how the new regime will fare.

And then there's Philly.

If we think of bad teams garnering the benefits of being bad for a spell and then becoming good, we could probably come up with a bunch of examples (maybe the Bad Boys in getting Thomas, maybe the Red Wings at the beginning their playoff streak, the Bless You Boys Tigers picking up Morris, Petry, Trammell, Whitaker, Parrish, and Gibson in short order, the '69 Mets, the '67 Red Sox?), but this is a more deliberate, systematic, analytical approach of which I think there are only a handful examples, all recent. Could be wrong.

Oracle wrote:You really think things through, and  I'm short on time, so let me get to the first part of post now.

Sparma wrote:You seem quite set on the risks of the Process, while giving little weight to the rewards, which are so striking to many now.  Also, again, the Process is designed to accommodate setbacks, of which there were many in Philly (by contrast, SVG just had to hit on the #8 pick he had because that was conceived as a one time high pick based on a poor record).  Also, it would take a while to pin down just what we're discussing.  Being bad in order to become good is hardly new (maybe that's what the KC A's did, although there seemed to be some special sauce in the scouting that yielded so many top players in short order).  Tanking in the NBA's not unusual, if that just means the front office not trying to improve during an off season in order to get a higher pick.
I'm going to pose my answer as a question because I don't remember anything like that working, but that doesn't mean I remember everything that happened, so I'm asking if anyone else recalls any of this ever working, please chime in.

The reason I never addressed the benefits is because I don't remember anyone benefiting from the tanking process, which, in my recollection is fairly new, I want to say in the last 20 years or so.

You mentioned OKC, and they had great success with draft picks, but I don't remember them tanking, they just couldn't win in a tough western conference.

Philly is a classic example, and they raise a lot of questions about the benefit. Just how many #1 picks, or top 5 picks do you need to make the playoffs in a traditionally weak conference?

Boston is a great example of not tanking, but getting great coaching and piling up picks... no tanking involved.

SA is an example, that we could/should have followed of no tanking but staying good, unfortunately, the component I talked about needing, we lost. We lost the coach that guided us and eventually the front office(Mr D) that provided the steady hand. People can keep dismissing the ownership, GM and coaching from the success formula all they want, they're just plain wrong, and Philly will need these to succeed.

So I mentioned this, but not directly, but I see no upside to tanking like that because the benefit takes so many variables to come together correctly that if it does work, it's not repeatable, and thus more luck than anything else.

What SVG is attempting to do is both reliable and repeatable with a smaller risk window because developed pieces will always have value and that value can be moved for either more talented pieces of better fitting ones.

Having said that, I don't reject tanking because if's a valid option when you have no other ways to go. That likely applies to Philly, so I wish them luck unless their success conflicts with ours, LOL!
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