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Odd Man Out (PF/SF)

Post  lemonpen Today at 12:02 pm

If Henry makes the rotation.

Johnson, Morris, Harris, Leuer

Four men enter three men leave.
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How Do They Co-exist

Post  lemonpen Today at 11:57 am

Stanley J. and Luke K.
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Hilliard

Post  lemonpen Today at 11:56 am

3rd PG ????
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze Today at 7:15 am

BallinD wrote:I agree Oracle, those puppies are mean, that helps explain that fat grin on Kennard's face.

It will be important for Ellensen and Kennard to show out in summer league, and I really, really hope SVG brings some real NBA prospects to the party in Orlando. If Ellensen and Kennard force his hand, it will make it harder for him to BS everybody.

Even though I agree, Tolliver might eat some minutes, it makes it possible to move Leuer and I think that is a possible outcome, as he is a viable chip. We still need a rim protector and a point, hopefully a young, unsung stud, but I wouldn't be mad if Beno runs it back since it is foolish to believe SVG will abandon his win-now philosophy, being as close as he is to failure, desparation must be bursting through his bluster. He's not about to go on a development binge now, because it is clear he has earned that nickname "Master of Panic."


One thing that hasn't helped Stan Van Gundy to gain perspective and objectively evaluate his coaching decisions is the fact that he is surrounded by YES men. If not his assistant coaches are idiots. Piston coaching staff did not recognize who was screwing up or playing with the minimum amount of energy. There were no consequences for certain players other than a one sentence statement to the press such as "he needs to be more engaged". Early on with Jackson's return the coaching staff especially the assistant in charge of the guards, Tim Hardaway, should have had a meeting with SVG and insisted that the Reggie return has no chance of success. The Piston coaching staff seemed to be half in and half out last season. Lack of quick recognition skills the players have might have infected the coaching staff. I do not believe this team would have performed any worse if the owner had hired a fan to coach the team. I love the way Brad Stevens coaches. If Thomas or another key player screws up or just doesn't have it during games, he notices very quickly and places that player on the bench regardless of how much that player is making. Brad doesn't show any emotion when he does it. He doesn't create additional conflict between the coach and player. Van Gundy should have decided within two weeks that Jackson is hurting the team and released a story to the press that Reggie's injury has not improved so he will not play for the rest of the season. Smith and Beno then play out the rest of the games. We would have most likely been in the playoffs. The other course of action might have been to recognize that there was no way this team would win big after it was clear Reggie was not the same dynamic point guard and then played the young players to get them valuable experience and used the season for them to get better as well as move up in the draft board. Not reconizing the quality of the top 6 players while other teams who were actually better than Detroit did is inexcusable. Our Pistons got worse and worse with the coaching staff appearing to not notice at all. The big talk was who should start at power forward. Meanwhile, teams could over play Morris because they determined he cannot drive the basketball well. It became harder for him to hit contested 3 point shots. Teams also noticed the Pistons showed no player movement or ball movement with their offense. And of course in the first quarter of most games opponents could get layups at will because the starters couldn't or didn't care to get back to protect the paint quick enough. The coaching staff ignored those basic traits this team showed. Who could do worse? Maybe Dick Vitale could do even worse.

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Billups?

Post  Go Stones! Yesterday at 9:48 pm

Oracle wrote:Cavs reportedly discussing 3-team trade involving Paul George and Kevin Love 

http://www.nba.com/article/2017/06/25/report-george-cited-centerpiece-potential-three-team-deal wrote:ESPN's Marc Stein and Chris Haynes are reporting on a potential three-team trade that would send Pacers All-Star Paul George to Cleveland and Cavaliers forward Kevin Love to the Nuggets.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/cavs-reportedly-discussing-3-team-trade-involving-paul-george-and-kevin-love/ar-BBDexup?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp wrote:The Cleveland Cavaliers apparently have not given up on their pursuit of All-Star forward Paul George. The Cavs are talking to the Indiana Pacers and Denver Nuggets on a three-team trade that would send George to Cleveland and Kevin Love to the Denver Nuggets, ESPN reported Sunday.

How? Do they have a GM? This won't help Cavs. May make LBJ leave? LBJ will have to play PF now, right? Love will be better in Denver. He can run and gun!
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Breaking: Hold on to you hats...

Post  Oracle Yesterday at 9:27 pm

Cavs reportedly discussing 3-team trade involving Paul George and Kevin Love 

http://www.nba.com/article/2017/06/25/report-george-cited-centerpiece-potential-three-team-deal wrote:ESPN's Marc Stein and Chris Haynes are reporting on a potential three-team trade that would send Pacers All-Star Paul George to Cleveland and Cavaliers forward Kevin Love to the Nuggets.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/cavs-reportedly-discussing-3-team-trade-involving-paul-george-and-kevin-love/ar-BBDexup?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp wrote:The Cleveland Cavaliers apparently have not given up on their pursuit of All-Star forward Paul George. The Cavs are talking to the Indiana Pacers and Denver Nuggets on a three-team trade that would send George to Cleveland and Kevin Love to the Denver Nuggets, ESPN reported Sunday.
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Jennings

Post  Go Stones! Yesterday at 7:37 pm

Everything went crazy when Jennings was traded.  Would be nice to have Jennings and ish and trade Jackson.  

I think Leur is fine.  He will find his stroke.  He got starter min for a reason.  Tolliver was less confident.  

Still think SVG is considering keeping Baynes.  Not sure by trade to gain financial room or by not signing KCP.


Last edited by Go Stones! on Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Autocorrect)
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Forum

Post  BallinD Yesterday at 7:09 pm

I agree Oracle, those puppies are mean, that helps explain that fat grin on Kennard's face.

It will be important for Ellensen and Kennard to show out in summer league, and I really, really hope SVG brings some real NBA prospects to the party in Orlando. If Ellensen and Kennard force his hand, it will make it harder for him to BS everybody.

Even though I agree, Tolliver might eat some minutes, it makes it possible to move Leuer and I think that is a possible outcome, as he is a viable chip. We still need a rim protector and a point, hopefully a young, unsung stud, but I wouldn't be mad if Beno runs it back since it is foolish to believe SVG will abandon his win-now philosophy, being as close as he is to failure, desparation must be bursting through his bluster. He's not about to go on a development binge now, because it is clear he has earned that nickname "Master of Panic."

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze Yesterday at 6:43 pm

BallinD wrote:Well, maybe the Pistons finally got a shooter.  If SVG doesn't screw it up, Kennard could be really special in a league where the 3pt shot now is more celebrated than the dunk...think about that.

If SVG keeps his ass out of the G league and gives him burn on the floor like a man who knows how awful his offense has been, there is hope.  After all, he never refused to play Drums or Weggie because of their D, did he?  

Will Weggie show him the old RJax hate treatment, and be allowed to do so by his enabling coach?  

Will he open up the floor for PnR and give us the spacing we need?

In my heart I believe SVG is now a placeholder for the next coach and GM, so we will see how this plays out.

BTW, why not get Tolliver??? Leuer was clearly not an upgrade last year and Tolliver shot the three better and plays with more passion. A cheap pick-up, since we need a "win-now vet"

Adding Tolliver is a good thing because he really liked playing for Detroit and adds a great personality who will put out fires in the locker room. But won't adding another older vet take minutes away from Ellenson? Detroit needs another point guard unless SVG has plans of playing Kennard in that role at times. Reggie is till a mystery man relating to his health. Coach should be really worried about a repeat of last season by Reggie. And I am not sold on Boban and Drummond being able to defend some of the athletic fast moving centers. This team will miss Baynes who was the one player that brought toughness to the defense.

There is so little money to provide insurance on center, point guard and power forward it is scary. SVG's spending has placed Detroit in a big hole for this season unless some trade is orchestrated. Maybe Ellenson will surprise everyone and play center at times. The younger players and Boban must come through or it will mean the end of the Stan Van Gundy era. I don't like saying that because that means SVG might pull the plug on those younger guys. He is harder on the young guns than almost any other NBA coach. Still I believe that this season SVG will do the right thing coaching wise and not give a free ride to the high contract starters and might come to the conclusion that he will have to coach his butt off with the young guys and have faith in them. Something still might shake out with a dynamic trade before training camp too.

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Ballin...

Post  Oracle Yesterday at 4:14 pm

I agree on Tolliver, he plays with WAY more heart than Leuer, even though on paper, Leuer should be the better player as Tolliver is aging.

If he doesn't give Kennard close to the same shot he gave Stanley, I'm going to personally tweet my ass of on his account and call him out.

If Kennard can't deliver, that's one thing, but he needs to have the chance to get used to the NBA.
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Kennard...

Post  Oracle Yesterday at 4:05 pm

I was skeptical about the Kennard pickup, but there is hope. I took a HARD look at a LOT of his highlights, and saw some things that give me hope. Specifically 4 things, but here are tree, the other later.

1. He's crafty, which should still work in the NBA, just not as well at first, he'll have to adapt to NBA speed and superior recovery time, but that will happen.

2. I was concerned about his short arms and his ability to get his shot off. After my review I noticed that Kennard has one of the fastest triggers I've seen lately. The speed and accuracy of that quick release is, IMO, elite level. Miss judge him for 1 second, and that shot is gone, this went a bit beyond hope.

3. He won't just settle for the 3 point shot, he'll attempt to get to the rim. In what I've seen, his luck in these situations is hit and miss. He will go to the rim, but that's where his short arms leads to getting blocked or inability to finish against normal armed players. In the NBA, the ability to pass out of those situations will be of the up most importance, and I've seen some surprisingly good passing out of him, but only in small samples.

The kid has the tools to be successful, but unless he can play better defense, his ceiling is 6th man or Microwave territory, which I will take in a heartbeat, and could lead to a solid career.

I also saw something in his private life that I like.... Trust me, if he can wrestle these puppies(his girlfriend's $#%^ below) to the ground nightly, the dude keeps scoring from the court all the way to the bedroom  lol lol lol

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Exciting Times

Post  BallinD Yesterday at 2:08 pm

Well, maybe the Pistons finally got a shooter.  If SVG doesn't screw it up, Kennard could be really special in a league where the 3pt shot now is more celebrated than the dunk...think about that.

If SVG keeps his ass out of the G league and gives him burn on the floor like a man who knows how awful his offense has been, there is hope.  After all, he never refused to play Drums or Weggie because of their D, did he?  

Will Weggie show him the old RJax hate treatment, and be allowed to do so by his enabling coach?  

Will he open up the floor for PnR and give us the spacing we need?

In my heart I believe SVG is now a placeholder for the next coach and GM, so we will see how this plays out.

BTW, why not get Tolliver??? Leuer was clearly not an upgrade last year and Tolliver shot the three better and plays with more passion. A cheap pick-up, since we need a "win-now vet"


Last edited by BallinD on Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Oops)
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze Yesterday at 10:46 am

deusXango wrote:"The Pistons’ starting five was one of the best in the league, based on the plus-minus statistic.

The issue was an awful bench, so it was assumed the signings of free agents Ish Smith and Jon Leuer would bolster the Pistons' Eastern Conference aspirations."
-Vince Ellis

Why was one of the best starting fives in the league broken up before the All-Star break? With our starting PG ailing, the strength of the starting unit was our forwards, regardless of their height. One of the big hopes, during last years off season, was to see how well our forward duo would improve this past year.

Ish Smith was thrown into the starting lineup because of injury to Reggie Jackson, but why was Jon Leuer thrown into the starting lineup; if SVG was dissatisfied with Tobias Harris, he should've been traded then and we would've surely gotten a draft pick out of the deal, and saved quite a bit of money as well. Resigning KCP wouldn't be as much of a concern as it is now.

The big questions in my mind is, who will start this year, will SVG play Johnson, Ellenson, and Kennard, extensively and allow them to grow together and will his coaching style become more imaginative and exciting or will it be more of the same?

dX i like your last paragraph a lot. This is what needs to happen but if SVG coaches with his usual emphasis on experience we might see the same old gang of dysfunctional players fighting it out for the 8th playoff spot. Is SVG's goal to preserve his job by targeting the 8th playoff spot or will he do the right thing and develop players who have much more potential to be more competitive with the good NBA teams. Last season I recall one game at Charlotte where the Pistons looked really good. But even though their record might have been better with Smith starting earlier in the season, there just was not enough talented players to avoid blowouts with above average teams like Washington. When an opposing team that played the Pistons had dynamic point guards, it didn't matter if Smith or Jackson played against them. It might not be all there fault either. This team needs to get away from the Tim Hardaway point guard dominating style where the point guard has to create everything in the offense. We need a smart playmaking type of point guard who can drill 3 point shots when needed and penetrate when the lane is open. This nonsense relating to basing everything on the pick and roll with point guard-Drummond is never going to work. You need more than that.

The Pistons are light years away from becoming a good basketball team. Until every player in the rotation knows the role the coach as assigned to them and then they commit to becoming great in that role, this team is going nowhere. Watching Golden State in the playoffs this year and then yesterday getting out the old Bad Boys DVD documentary makes me realize even more how far away this group of players are to becoming a successful team. That is why this team has such bad chemistry. They have no identity and either some of the players have not been told what their role is on the team or they refuse to accept their role. If the latter is true then there is no other choice but to move those players. The problem is that management cannot find any buyers so far. I love the part in the Bad Boys documentary where Bill Laimbeer stated several times whenever a new player joined the team Bill said he would have a sit down and tell the new player what his role is on the team and then said there will be no compromises. Every player was on board to perform their role and they kept getting better and better at it. The team chemistry was as close to blood family as it could ever be.

Call me crazy but if Kennard can adapt quickly and prove himself in training camp, I do not believe Detroit needs KCP. If they do sign KCP there will not be any ability to improve this team for many years. You cannot place all your eggs in one basket especially after the starting unit played so horribly during the last half of the season. Many blame Reggie Jackson for not being able to perform miracles again, but I blame several of his teammates for flat out not picking this team up in any way. Am I the only one who remembers this team getting blown out in the first quarter mostly due to lack of effort on defense? Then when the 3rd quarter started the same starters quickly created a blow out situation after the 2nd unit had fought hard to get the Pistons back in those games. I know the coaching staff must be thinking about that. So if SVG does go the conservative route and plays those same starters he is crazy. dX remember that the blowouts still happened after Reggie Jackson was benched and Smith took over. There were other players in the starting group that were as much to blame as Reggie Jackson.

I read where Kennard can play point guard and shooting guard. Today's NBA game is currently played with no point guard. Todays point guards are less involved with play making and more involved in shooting or setting others up for shots as a secondary goal. If Kennard can play average defense he would be a step ahead of both Jackson and Smith. Kennard has size and he is extremely smart like Larry Bird. I wonder if SVG has plans to put the ball in this guys hands a lot. If the other point guards play, he won't touch the ball enough to make an impact as we have seen with the Stanley Johnson experience. Stanley was a point guard in high school and played some point at Arizona too, He is another smart guy who can pass the ball and see the floor. But for the last two years, the point guards took Johnson out of the offense. If he touched the ball two times in a quarter he was lucky. Somehow our head coach must get his head out of his ass and realize the Piston offense needs a big overhaul. This team needs to get everyone involved in the offense not just two players or one player involved in every possession on offense.

Then there is the biggest question. Last season this team had NO SHOT BLOCKER. Who can fill that role for the team? SVG has his job on the line this next season. Knowing no member of the team stepped up and provided paint protection in the way of blocking shots around the rim, will he gamble with the same group of starters again when his job is on the line. That is why SVG tried hard to find a trade for Andre Drummond. He could not find any trade partners that could give him a average center in return. What will SVG do to address Andre Drummond's failure to accept his role on this team. To become a good paint protector and shot blocker, a center has to be in his best physical condition because quickness and endurance is mandatory. Ben Wallace was in supreme physical condition. He had very little body fat. Looking at Bill Laimbeer in the Bad Boys documentary, it was clear that Bill was in fantastic physical condition and was determined to give his team whatever they needed both mentally and physically. Some of you still have faith in Andre Drummond. Please watch him in action closely next season to see if he decides to change who he is and accepts the responsibility for this important job of being a top notch defender, paint protector, defensive glass mad man, and biggest of all being a scary shot blocker. If this team had a player who could provide those things our Pistons would be on their way to becoming a quality NBA team that other teams would hate to play. If they come back playing like last season, all other teams will smile and mark a W down before tip off. It will be interesting to see Ellenson perform on defense in the Summer League games. Maybe Leuer has been busting his ass this summer to get stronger in the upper body. It is time to use Harris exclusively at small forward unless other teams go to small ball.

Because we have so many brain dead players in the starting lineup don't be surprised if you see Luke Kennard in the starting lineup by November.

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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:26 pm

"The Pistons’ starting five was one of the best in the league, based on the plus-minus statistic.

The issue was an awful bench, so it was assumed the signings of free agents Ish Smith and Jon Leuer would bolster the Pistons' Eastern Conference aspirations."
-Vince Ellis

Why was one of the best starting fives in the league broken up before the All-Star break? With our starting PG ailing, the strength of the starting unit was our forwards, regardless of their height. One of the big hopes, during last years off season, was to see how well our forward duo would improve this past year.

Ish Smith was thrown into the starting lineup because of injury to Reggie Jackson, but why was Jon Leuer thrown into the starting lineup; if SVG was dissatisfied with Tobias Harris, he should've been traded then and we would've surely gotten a draft pick out of the deal, and saved quite a bit of money as well. Resigning KCP wouldn't be as much of a concern as it is now.

The big questions in my mind is, who will start this year, will SVG play Johnson, Ellenson, and Kennard, extensively and allow them to grow together and will his coaching style become more imaginative and exciting or will it be more of the same?
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" I was one step ahead and Isiah was two steps ahead". Who said that?

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:10 pm

Who can forget Bill Laimbeer making that statement? He also said that both Zeke and himself were driven by fear of losing. That says it all when you think of who you want as team leaders if you are a head coach or GM. They both made everything easy for management and coaches. Boy do I long for that type of infection to take hold of the Detroit Pistons. One secret about the great players is that they used their fear to conquer others who did not know that they didn't know. Even after you put in far more hard work with conditioning and correcting your weaknesses, there is still the human factor that annoys the hell out of you as a player. Will some opponent player get the best of you and your team? Will that sprained ankle make me miss my shots or affect my movement? The great players are always worried because they know how hard it is to win. Laimbeer and Zeke never overlooked the details before they played any regular season game. Every detail was important and that is how the team came up with the slogan that they would refuse to lose.

That is why I get pissed off when I see last year's team leader dancing and clowning around before every regular season game. He is not alone. Some of our players are AWOL mentally when it comes to game preparation and attention to details. Nothing seemed to bother some of the starters in the last two months of last season when the team started the habit of getting blown out in the first quarter. This is why I believe this summer is so important if you are Stan Van Gundy. Something has to be done with this starting unit or the top 7 rotation players that played last season. Please think back when you played in high school or college. Did you experience anything like what happened to this Piston team during the last half of the season? Please be advised that what happened last season was not due to youth. It wasn't because there are too many young players. The performance of the Pistons was not totally due to anything this coaching staff did or did not do. We are talking about HEART. Why do I say that? Isiah Thomas came to the Pistons and scored over 30 points in his first game. He then repeated that performance making key shots and ending up scoring in the high 20s but made the key plays of the game. He did not have good teammates at the time. It was one many who set an example. He hated to lose. You could see it as a fan. The coaches could see it. It didn't matter that Isiah Thomas really didn't want to be drafted by the Pistons. He wanted to go to Chicago. Once on the hardwood, Zeke was a Piston and the best Piston of all time. It was his heart that everyone was attracted to as a Piston follower. And the hard nosed attitude of our center Bill Laimbeer was strike two for any opponent. The rest of the crew was important as hell but those two players are responsible for the attitude that took the Detroit Pistons to the top.

Stan Van Gundy has drafted a guy in Kennard who has the same attitude. He hates to lose, He has fear of losing. Luke pays attention to every possible detail. He was an outstanding quarterback in high school as pointed out in some of the articles. He worked on the fundamentals as a 5 year old and never stopped. This might be one player at least who will not settle for just receiving a big pay check. What is bothersome for me is the fact that nobody took charge when things were not going well for the team. Nobody including the coaches had any impact on some of our players. No GM should hand out big money for any of the players who performed for the Pistons last season unless the owner is satisfied with being just average. It appears that is the direction this team is going. We keep the same players who surrendered in the beginning of the 3rd quarter in most games during the last two months. There was minimum effort expended by key players during those moments. If that is not a sign of future failure I don't know anything about basketball. Players who win have HEART. If you don't have it or show it in the most difficult situations then you will be a big part of the problem. That is why I laugh at some of the experts who have picked apart Kennard as being an average athlete. It is the brain that decides success on the hardwood. If you can think two steps ahead of the competition instead of two steps behind then you will be successful. You are born with that gift and then when you know you have the gift you work harder then everyone else just for insurance to make sure you don't lose. Stan Van Gundy is not dumb. He knows that every player who was part of the surrender last season is on the list to be traded. It is not about Xs and Os in the NBA. You get your butt back on defense and don't trot showing you are extremely out of shape. You concentrate and focus during games and don't throw mind numbing bad passes. How many bad passes did we see last season from several of the players who handled the ball the most?

If the fans do not get on these players if they are not traded, then something is wrong. We cannot accept this type of effort anymore. If the coaches do not discipline the players then they need to be fired. If the GM and front office decision makers sign anymore duds who do not have HEART, then need to go.

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Should Billups accept the job offer in Cleveland?

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:07 am

If I were Mr. BigShot I would be hesitant to take on the GM job that has been offered. I can't find any evidence that he has accepted the job. This could be a nightmare type job. Labron James is greedy in the sense that he demands the impossible relating to adding stars to the roster when the team has few options. If Labron has leaked his disappointment with Kevin Love to the press just because his team lost to a Golden State team playing at their peak, that would be a clear sign that the Cleveland GM job will not be fun. First off, Billups is having fun right now being an expert television personality. His family lives in an area where they are really happy. Does he really want to move them to Cleveland and then face the wrath of Labron James and his demands and threats to move to greener pastures? How would you feel if Detroit had James right now and James might be giving signals that he wants to move on in search of another dream as a player? It will mean the end for Cleveland if he does leave after next season and the team gets nothing for him. The team has burned through their assets to keep Labron happy. I am not sure where they sit relating to draft picks but I think they gave some future picks away. He must demand a long term contract with the understanding that the owner must remain calm if Billups undertakes a complete rebuild. Why not wait another season and if things do not improve for the Pistons, a GM position should open up for him in Detroit. Billups has developed valuable relationships over the years and has set himself up for future success as a front office guy. The other idea would be for him to take on an assistant GM job at first maybe closer to his home and see if he even likes doing that type of work.

Why is everyone ganging up on Kevin Love and blaming him for not winning it all? I thought that considering Love's overall performance in the playoffs, he was outstanding. This guy played defense and rebounded on the defensive glass very well. His shot making was outstanding with the exception of the finals. Is that any indication that Love would not be outstanding next year if Cleveland makes the finals? Cleveland has bigger problems than Kevin Love. The rest of their rotation players are getting older and slower. Could it be that Labron wants out now? If so, should Cleveland management try to get something fantastic for his services? Does Labron fear some of the other Eastern Conference teams will be looking for revenge in the playoffs next year. For sure I cannot believe Cleveland can repeat a sweep again. If Boston acquires Hayward and adds another quality player and keeps their outstanding team chemistry, they will be difficult to beat. Washington matches up good with Cleveland as well. This will be a very interesting season within the Eastern conference.

Do you think Detroit will keep on trying to make at least one trade before training camp?


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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:57 am

deusXango wrote:"Luke Kennard might be the best shooter in the draft. It’s all part of Stan Van Gundy’s plan to turn the Pistons into the 2009 Orlando Magic."-Rick O'Connell

This is Detroit SVG! Who sold you on the fact that a Blue Collar town wanted an outdated, Central Florida offense, that didn't take you to the promised land? When will he realize that his stubbornness wore on the players, the bosses, and even at his best, he was an "also ran" and got his ass fired? I hope Kennard works out here because thus far, there's not been one three point shooter that Van Gundy has brought in, worked out.

I know some are wondering why I bash SVG so much, here's why; he's tried to impress local fans by turning over a roster (which wasn't that hard to do) with consistently overpaid middling 2nd tier players, he plays negative politics with his players, makes bad, bad, decisions with personnel and players, has demonstrated poor game management more often than not, and if memory serves me correctly, he never wanted to have anything to do with Detroit in the first place. As a fan I don't appreciate a coach that is the first to fault find with players I'm rooting for and he hand picked! Stanley Johnson, with all his talent/physical gifts coming in, was forced to concentrate on "correcting" his jump shot, a shot that was sufficient to make it to the pros, but not to SVG's liking. Henry Ellenson, a 6' 11" player with mad guard skills and could hold his own defensively, that many considered us fortunate to have fall to us, was too light in the ass, not tough enough, and as a result consigned to Grand Rapids for the majority of his rookie season (risking serious injury competing against "mad dog" players who'll never be apart of a pro rotation). His strategies would be acceptable if the payoff was the team winning, but it wasn't! He's had me bashing Jon Leuer, not because I really don't like him, but how SVG used him. He replaced the most efficient and productive scorer in the starting lineup with Leuer, and started justifying the move by saying what a helluva 6th man Harris was, not to mention using Leuer's prominent presence in the rotation to keep Ellenson in Grand Rapids. Now comes Luke Kennard, a late lottery pick (a lottery pick, none the less!) and on draft day, before hands are shook or contracts are signed, this young man with recognized offensive wizardry skills, find the first thing his president/coach has to say is "he's got to prove himself on the defensive end in order to see the floor." Luke isn't designed to be a standout defender, plus, if SVG wanted a defender, why didn't he draft one? His insistence on players doing things contrary to what they've worked hard at for their entire life is ridiculous and it robs them (these guys are young, albeit wise beyond their years) of their enthusiasm to follow that type of leadership. Who did SVG play for and when? I know his dad was a coach, but I'd like to know who coached SVG as a player.

Mind games being played with the last three first round draftees and the unnecessary breaking up of the effective pairing of Harris and Morris sucked. I read the other day that the team still has no clear cut direction, which means to me, SVG hasn't installed a philosophy, in all the changes he's made, the franchise doesn't have a clear cut mission!!!

So much blame was placed on Reggie Jackson's injury as the reason the season was a failure; that's too much unfair focus on one player! Yeah, Reggie came back too soon and he sucked, but we had workable options that were working; why didn't SVG demand that Reggie wait until after the new year, at least, before making his come back? If the team regressed and played -.500 ball behind Ish Smith's floor leadership, it could've been accepted, but it's a different story when you've got a highly paid floor general leading the team down the tubes, and that's what fans (myself included) saw before the lingering injury. A damn shame and unfair, but if you're egotistical, stubborn, braindead, and disinterested beyond practicing narcissism, it can be easily done.

I agree with your complaints dX. Will SVG continue on his path to try to prove that he was not wrong on Leuer? I think a lot of SVG's decisions were based on his own ego relating to players he over paid in free agency. He failed to separate the front office leader from the head coach and there is not doubt about it. Does he understand that now and change his perspective and do the right thing with the players this season? Can we trust him?

Dx I do know something about SVG's history. It goes as follows.

Stan Van Gundy did play guard on his high school team at Alhambra High School in the San Francisco Bay area. He played for his father, Bill Van Gundy. I don't believe he played any college ball but did enter the college coaching profession pretty early and took several assistant coaching jobs and I think he had success as a head coach in division II as a head coach. I know he was an assistant coach at Wisconsin working under Stu Jackson for several years and when Jackson jumped into a pro job SVG became the head coach at Wisconsin and received a 5 year contract. I know that because this was when I was coaching in the mid 1990s around 1994-1995. Unfortunately for Stan it didn't work as the team had a losing season under his leadership. Dick Bennett replaced him and under Bennett the following season Wisconsin had a winning record and you know the rest of the story relating to Bennett and Wisconsin. SVG was not unemployed for long because he was hired by Pat Riley at Miami and I think he spent at least 10 or more seasons with the Heat as an assistant coach. Around 2003-2004 Riley quit as head coach but stayed on as team President. He named Stan Van Gundy head coach. The Heat had a losing record under Riley but in 2003-2004 under SVG the team went from 25 wins or so to over 40 wins as I recall. Then Riley (Van Gundy made no free agent signing decisions) had drafted Wade ( remember Joe Dumar's son Darko) and signed Shaq. The team exploded reaching almost 60 wins and lost to our Pistons in the playoffs. Remember that series where Wade suffered a key injury which really helped our Pistons get by Miami? There is no doubt that SVG did a great job at Miami and so good that good old Pat Riley decided that Stan was taking too much attention away from himself and fired Stan to take over the Heat head coaching job again. That had to hurt and I wonder if Stan doesn't have a voodoo doll somewhere in his house to this day with Pat Riley's facial image with a pin stuck in the doll's heart. You know the rest dX relating to his success at Orlando.

I know you won't like the following statement but here goes. I think that SVG does a good job with his draft picks. But he fails in the executive job by taking the draft too lightly in this modern era. You need to have 2nd round picks and get lucky. Some of the current trouble still reflects on Joe Dumars but Piston management hasn't been very sharp with free agent signings or planning for the future relating to stockpiling draft picks like other teams. Joe Dumars drafted Andre Drummond. He gets the credit or the fault but I think Dumars gambled on Drummond even though his past history as a college player indicated that he was not a coachable player. Stan Van Gundy was very successful with Shaq but one could say that Drummond is still much younger than Shaq was when he played for Miami. But when Shaq was a younger guy and even younger than Drummond, he was extremely coachable. SVG just hasn't been able to make any headway at all relating to helping Drummond fulfill the role this team needs from him. Say what you want dX Drummond is a man who does things his way regardless of the impact on his teammates. We need a paint protector and a center who has the heart to play hard enough to be in position to block shots at the rim and to be able to guard players 5 feet from the basket and closer. That player must be able to think quickly and box out his man on the defensive boards and control the defensive boards. We do not need a center who practices the baseline hook shot. And of course we need a center who is not the worst free throw shooter in NBA history getting maximum playing time. Drummond refused the help of the shooting coach. SVG hired the shooting coach especially to help Drummond. Imagine how the shooting coach took that when SVG had to tell him to stay away from Andre Drummond in practice. All season long SVG was preaching to Drummond to fulfill the role Drummond was most needed to fill. Stan told Drummond last summer he needed to figure things out on the defensive end. Drummond did not work on that aspect of his game. But Drummond thinks of himself as the team leader because he is not Money Bags. He walks around like he owns the team and appears to care less about becoming the player this team needs. He tells the press that the only thing he and his teammates need to do over the summer is REST. When he is asked about working on his free throw shooting just two weeks ago, he says NO I HAVEN'T FOUND THE TIME. Andre Drummond is not young relating to the NBA. Who in hell will not try to do what the coach asks of you especially after the owner and SVG have bent over backwards to make his life perfect? What is sickening is watching Drummond in short moments where he shows off his athletic ability. He is quick as a cat when he wants to be on both offense and defense. In those moments Andre recovers after making a mistake and blocks a shot or gets a tough rebound. Then he disappears. Andre Drummond doesn't know that he doesn't know which is the worst thing any player can have when it comes to predicting if they will ever get better. Look at Labron James and Kevin Durant. Those two players are the best in the world but are they RESTING THIS SUMMER? Both are known for their off season work ethic often working out with conditioning for over 5 to 7 hours a day. Labron says it is part of his life. I personally have made long distance running part of my life for years after a tragedy struck relating to an illness and death of the person closest to me. As a marathon running you find out what it takes to make it to the finish line whether it be 26 or 50 miles or more. You have to work hard with conditioning concentration and focus to mentally be able to do it. Then you have to balance that effort with the rest of your life relating to work and family life. That is why I know that Andre Drummond doesn't know that he doesn't know. He might never know how to reach his potential and might not care if he does until it is too late. Right now this moment, if Drummond really cared about becoming the best player he could become, he would be working with a defensive coach all summer long at least 5 hours a day with much of it involving conditioning. Drummond is over weight and out of shape. He should not be treated like a baby any longer. If SVG smells that he is tanking again like last season then he will have to try to move that contract even if he gets only a 2nd round pick him. Lose the salary and find another center who wants to fill the necessary role this team needs. The Pistons can no longer wait for Andre Drummond to wake up. That is the way I see it dX so call me mean.

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Can't wait for the season to begin

Post  deusXango on Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:42 am

"Luke Kennard might be the best shooter in the draft. It’s all part of Stan Van Gundy’s plan to turn the Pistons into the 2009 Orlando Magic."-Rick O'Connell

This is Detroit SVG! Who sold you on the fact that a Blue Collar town wanted an outdated, Central Florida offense, that didn't take you to the promised land? When will he realize that his stubbornness wore on the players, the bosses, and even at his best, he was an "also ran" and got his ass fired? I hope Kennard works out here because thus far, there's not been one three point shooter that Van Gundy has brought in, worked out.

I know some are wondering why I bash SVG so much, here's why; he's tried to impress local fans by turning over a roster (which wasn't that hard to do) with consistently overpaid middling 2nd tier players, he plays negative politics with his players, makes bad, bad, decisions with personnel and players, has demonstrated poor game management more often than not, and if memory serves me correctly, he never wanted to have anything to do with Detroit in the first place. As a fan I don't appreciate a coach that is the first to fault find with players I'm rooting for and he hand picked! Stanley Johnson, with all his talent/physical gifts coming in, was forced to concentrate on "correcting" his jump shot, a shot that was sufficient to make it to the pros, but not to SVG's liking. Henry Ellenson, a 6' 11" player with mad guard skills and could hold his own defensively, that many considered us fortunate to have fall to us, was too light in the ass, not tough enough, and as a result consigned to Grand Rapids for the majority of his rookie season (risking serious injury competing against "mad dog" players who'll never be apart of a pro rotation). His strategies would be acceptable if the payoff was the team winning, but it wasn't! He's had me bashing Jon Leuer, not because I really don't like him, but how SVG used him. He replaced the most efficient and productive scorer in the starting lineup with Leuer, and started justifying the move by saying what a helluva 6th man Harris was, not to mention using Leuer's prominent presence in the rotation to keep Ellenson in Grand Rapids. Now comes Luke Kennard, a late lottery pick (a lottery pick, none the less!) and on draft day, before hands are shook or contracts are signed, this young man with recognized offensive wizardry skills, find the first thing his president/coach has to say is "he's got to prove himself on the defensive end in order to see the floor." Luke isn't designed to be a standout defender, plus, if SVG wanted a defender, why didn't he draft one? His insistence on players doing things contrary to what they've worked hard at for their entire life is ridiculous and it robs them (these guys are young, albeit wise beyond their years) of their enthusiasm to follow that type of leadership. Who did SVG play for and when? I know his dad was a coach, but I'd like to know who coached SVG as a player.

Mind games being played with the last three first round draftees and the unnecessary breaking up of the effective pairing of Harris and Morris sucked. I read the other day that the team still has no clear cut direction, which means to me, SVG hasn't installed a philosophy, in all the changes he's made, the franchise doesn't have a clear cut mission!!!

So much blame was placed on Reggie Jackson's injury as the reason the season was a failure; that's too much unfair focus on one player! Yeah, Reggie came back too soon and he sucked, but we had workable options that were working; why didn't SVG demand that Reggie wait until after the new year, at least, before making his come back? If the team regressed and played -.500 ball behind Ish Smith's floor leadership, it could've been accepted, but it's a different story when you've got a highly paid floor general leading the team down the tubes, and that's what fans (myself included) saw before the lingering injury. A damn shame and unfair, but if you're egotistical, stubborn, braindead, and disinterested beyond practicing narcissism, it can be easily done.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:05 pm

Go Stones! wrote:I'm a huge KCP fan, but would Afflalo for $10M a year for 3 years be a stop gap to not sign KCP and sign Baynes for $10M? SG could be AA, rook and Silent G. Don't resign Bullock or Hilliard. Add another vet SG on vet min along the way. Thoughts?

I am all in. SVG knows that he needs a high character respected older vet on this team. The nonsense will stop if Affalo would actually sign with the Pistons. I was excited when I heard that the Kings were interested in Drummond thinking we could get Affalo in the deal. Maybe SVG is interested and at the time of the talks thought Affalo would be a great insurance policy if Pope signs elsewhere. If Affalo could be added the team has yet another high basketball IQ player. Go Stones!

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Afflalo

Post  Go Stones! on Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:00 pm

I'm a huge KCP fan, but would Afflalo for $10M a year for 3 years be a stop gap to not sign KCP and sign Baynes for $10M? SG could be AA, rook and Silent G. Don't resign Bullock or Hilliard. Add another vet SG on vet min along the way. Thoughts?
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And so the...

Post  Oracle on Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:25 pm

BS begins...
Don wrote:Murph at least it will be refreshing to see a player who is highly motivated. fans who attend the games will have have to worry about being forced to watch players who are not engaged. This guy has a great basketball HEART. He has high basketball character and I was not excited about him before the draft but then watched some film on him and discovered more about his background as a high school player. He makes up for a lot of things with his attitude and smarts. Because we have so many mentally challenged players currently on the roster, that might be his biggest adjustment. This guy was able to out fox a lot of opposing players and score both inside and outside at Duke. As the injuries piled up for Duke, our draft pick was the MAN. Every opposing team tried to stop him and were unsuccessful. He expended so much energy on offense that his defense suffered. 

We all know that playing solid defense is mostly mental not physical. Do you embrace playing defense or do you try to fake in once you get that contract as an NBA player. Kennard is a guy who will not take a play off. If the coach asks him to do something or work on eliminating a weakness, there is no doubt he will be engaged as Stan Van Gundy likes to say. He has good focus and attention to detail unlike a lot of college and pro players. Most likely he will be ahead of the curve once training camp begins and will have figured out not only his duty on the defensive rotations but will be telling Andre Drummond where to go. Of course then Andre will conveniently forget and when his assigned man has the basketball within 3 feet from the basket, Andre will suddenly switch off him and onto his guard teammates man at the last second because it took too much effort to stay in front of his man. God I wish that I could get those moments out of my mind. In all my years I had never seen any big man do that before. And it did it 3 times in one game without any repercussions.
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Luke Kennard and Stanley Johnson

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:17 pm

Good to hear that Kennard played with Stanley Johnson on the World under 18 team a few years ago. I really like this pick. Friends have called me from Michigan and they are excited because Luke is so smart. Now we have two high basketball IQ players on this team. I'll bet that Johnson has already called Luke and told him not to worry about anything because Stanley will get him up to speed on the Pistons defensive rotations. I will stick my neck out a bit but knowing the caliber of players on this current roster, my gut tells me Kennard will be in the rotation when the regular season begins. And I still hope that KCP finds another home unless his price tag moves a lot lower. The DUI might hurt him relating to other teams offering crazy money. Will SVG cut ties with KCP if the demand doesn't come way down? I would love to have Pope on the roster moving forward for ten to thirteen million. Anything more would be silly. Sign Affalo for a year. Let Johnson and Kennard fill that spot. This team has much bigger problems than filling the 2 guard position. We have an extremely weak interior defense with no shot blocker. The center and Power forward positions need to be upgraded before addressing any other needs.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:01 pm

Oracle wrote:
Murph wrote:The "luke"-warm response and grumblings from this board on the Kenard draft were much anticipated.

I think the best case scenario in a situation like this is for Kenard to develop into a poor man's Kyle Korver...a guy that comes off the bench to shoot 3s, but who will always lack defense and quickness.  

In that Kenard is best suited for a 6th man role, maybe SVG should explore extending KCP's contract, and how much it will cost.
If he can be a Korver, that's great, but who knows, and likely the absolute high end of hope. BTW, who was that Euro we had that shot the lights out over there, but couldn't get his shot off in the NBA? That's probably the low end.

What we do know scares me! A 6'5 guy with a puny 6' wingspan, and likely goes by the name STUBS  lol

Can he fool NBA level players, who recover quickly? With that wingspan, it's going to be damn near impossible to get shots off in the NBA, and defending will be a joke, it's NOT going to get better.

I like KCP a lot, but I really do want a capable SG backup to push him harder, competition helps everyone get better. For some strange reason we never seem to be able to get/keep backup SG's.

I know what you're thinking, we do have a sh!t load of guys that should be SG on this team, but none of them pose even a tiny threat to KCP... that's not good.

Murph at least it will be refreshing to see a player who is highly motivated. fans who attend the games will have have to worry about being forced to watch players who are not engaged. This guy has a great basketball HEART. He has high basketball character and I was not excited about him before the draft but then watched some film on him and discovered more about his background as a high school player. He makes up for a lot of things with his attitude and smarts. Because we have so many mentally challenged players currently on the roster, that might be his biggest adjustment. This guy was able to out fox a lot of opposing players and score both inside and outside at Duke. As the injuries piled up for Duke, our draft pick was the MAN. Every opposing team tried to stop him and were unsuccessful. He expended so much energy on offense that his defense suffered.

We all know that playing solid defense is mostly mental not physical. Do you embrace playing defense or do you try to fake in once you get that contract as an NBA player. Kennard is a guy who will not take a play off. If the coach asks him to do something or work on eliminating a weakness, there is no doubt he will be engaged as Stan Van Gundy likes to say. He has good focus and attention to detail unlike a lot of college and pro players. Most likely he will be ahead of the curve once training camp begins and will have figured out not only his duty on the defensive rotations but will be telling Andre Drummond where to go. Of course then Andre will conveniently forget and when his assigned man has the basketball within 3 feet from the basket, Andre will suddenly switch off him and onto his guard teammates man at the last second because it took too much effort to stay in front of his man. God I wish that I could get those moments out of my mind. In all my years I had never seen any big man do that before. And it did it 3 times in one game without any repercussions.

Damn I cannot believe that Golden State made the steal of the draft when they bought a 2nd round pick and got Bell. He has a motor that won't quit and I can't believe he was not a first round pick. Wish we had him but of course I forgot SVG knows that the Pistons are solid at every position. We are in great shape. I feel sorry for Kennard.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:41 pm

Sparma wrote:Cool, Markkannen may turn out to be great. I respect your judgment there. BUT Chicago should not have needed to give up their own 1st rounder in return. As I remember, they just moved up 9 spots. You see someone you like at 7, and you hold on to your pick, maybe then.

AND if you're rebuilding, why in the world would you sell your second round pick?

And even though Wade's opting in for his over 20 mil payment, there's talk of getting pressured to buy him out later this season. Maybe media hype about a LeBron reunion, but we'll see how that unfolds.

And Rondo's not your idea locker room rebuilding guy by all accounts.

They must really not have liked something about Butler. Not an impressive draft night for the Bulls. I'm all for thorough rebuilding, but I don't think the Bulls are providing such a great example so far.

cool breeze wrote:
Sparma wrote:It could be worse.  The Chicago Bulls got less than expected for Jimmy Butler, then sold (!) a 2nd round pick.  Not much joy in Chitown today.

What's wrong with this picture: GS bought a 2nd round pick, but we did not, being told in advance by the GM how unlikely that was given the depth of our roster.

In the next breath, as  I remember, he spoke of how deep this draft class is that the undrafted group would be of special interest.  That's next, I guess, hearing about how an undrafted signee could make an extraordinary contribution.  Maybe so, and bring that signee on, but, again, halfway measures tend to bring tepid results.

My post above reveals why the Chicago Brass are rebuilding. that team is not satisfied with making the 8th playoff spot like our Piston management team that must feel they need to get that spot next season or they will be fired. Chicago got a young point guard but he was not one of my favorite players before he was drafted last season. But he has good size and could end up being an effective offensive player and defender. And they got the Big Fin power forward who is actually a much better defender than has been described. This guy flat out shot the ball extremely well against pressure last season from many spots on the floor. He is a shot maker who is 7 foot tall with a really high basketball IQ, He was a good teammate with a great personality and he loves practicing and hanging out in the gym working on his game. Chicago got a diamond. The Bulls fans will enjoy the rebuilding process not hate it. We Piston fans never get to experience a true rebuild with management that has the guts to do it the right way. Chicago will do it the right way. Listening to their GM in NBA TV was so refreshing after hearing what comes out of our Stan Van Gundy's mouth as he pencils in Morris as the starting small forward and sends Ellenson down to the minor league after Leuer shoots zero for twelve the previous night. We watch a middle of the road team with bad team chemistry and nothing is done by management this summer? It is actually shocking but Piston contracts do not match performance so very little can be done and that might be the way things work in Piston land for the next 3 years.

Sparma I thought that any deal involving Butler would demand more than they got. What I appreciate is that their management does accept that what they had will never get them much further than the 8th spot in the playoffs and had the courage to finally start a new process. Last night the experts predicted that both Wade and Rondo would be going soon as well as the Bulls execute a complete blow up. There will be some tough nights for the rookies for awhile. The Bulls fans will get upset and want somebody's head. Then next summer if they can land a superstar, everyone will be happy.But I do not understand the logic in giving up their 2nd round pick as well. But most likely in 4 years they will be beating up on our Pistons again. For now this might be at least one Eastern conference team our Pistons can beat.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:21 pm

Go Stones! wrote:I think we should sign him so we have a decent backup and leader in the locker room.
He'd consider it now that Joe D is gone.

YES Affalo makes great sense but do the Pistons have any money to spend on him?

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