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Don & Sparma

Post  Oracle on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:46 pm

Cool wrote:Oracle I highly respect your opinion but didn't you know that SVG was forced into another cover up to confess that he is to blame for anything that might reflect in a negative way in the direction of the team Captain. The press happily reports on SVG's failings too. This is one happy family with AD, TG, SVG, and the press. We fans are left to pick up the pieces and find some joy in watching the pre game dance that will be on that big screen next season. Stan is the whipping boy. The owner makes the decisions and everyday the value of the team grows regardless of how the team plays. So as Murph points out who can argue with that? If Andre wants to post up, he will get the ball or there will be hell to pay. If Andre doesn't want to play defense the coach better not use any harsh words even that one statement about not being engaged enough caused SVG to get a whipping. It is the pre game dancing and the shimmy that people will get next season Oracle. But how could you know? You are an honest fan. I am getting excited about SVG's post game press conferences next season to see how he spins it after loses. Who will he be told to blame. Will it be Ellenson, Johnson, Kennard, or Avery Bradley? Nobody will remember about the tip in by Andre's man. 
I think SVG will change your mind.

While I believe Gores is in his grill about Dre, just watch as Kennard gets G-League time and Ellenson is declared not as good as Leuer or some other PF. Of course I hope it isn't true, but we've seen this movie before.
Sparma wrote:If that's a good move for KCP, I guess I just don't think like him at all. If I'd known how everything was going to unfold, I'd gladly have taken the 80/4 over 18/1. He's likely out of LA next year, but who knows. I think his agent says he'll be the main SG on the FA market next year, just as he is this year, which is weird because Bradley will be out there, as well as Redick, as well as some guys comparable with him. Oh well. If KCP plays well he'll be fine. And I won't earn the measly 18 mil he gets this year in my lifetime, so it's hard to feel too much pity for him.
You're not thinking like a man that believes in himself, and that's where KCP is. 

Beyond a doubt the Laker situation is better for him than here, it's not even close.

However, you seem to me, and I may be wrong, that you look for the negative in a positive. Everybody here thought 16M was about right for where he was, and he gets 18M, could have got more if the Lakers could clear more. No, it wasn't what they claimed they wanted, but it's still more than I think the raw numbers would normally warrant. But somehow, he gets more than you thought he should get and it's a negative?

You also see security where there is none.

There is no security in a contract with a liar. Also without a no trade clause, which he couldn't get, signing here only lets SVG deal you anywhere he wants.... now he has a say in where he goes.

All of the tea leaves point to him and his big bro uniting in LA, so is there risk? Yes, but the ONLY no risk situation with total security is DEATH... always bet on yourself!
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KCP

Post  Sparma on Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:23 pm

If that's a good move for KCP, I guess I just don't think like him at all. If I'd known how everything was going to unfold, I'd gladly have taken the 80/4 over 18/1. He's likely out of LA next year, but who knows. I think his agent says he'll be the main SG on the FA market next year, just as he is this year, which is weird because Bradley will be out there, as well as Redick, as well as some guys comparable with him. Oh well. If KCP plays well he'll be fine. And I won't earn the measly 18 mil he gets this year in my lifetime, so it's hard to feel too much pity for him.

Oracle wrote:There are a LOT of reasons this is an excellent move for KCP.

1. SVG is just a terrible coach, more on that in the next post
2. The Lakers offer a gold plated organization on the west coast! There's no end to the opportunities there if you're successful
3. Magic and the Lakers are happy to get him and the love in genuine
4. He gets a rookie in Ball, but after seeing summer league, that rookie is a fantastic distributor and one of the best on the break
5. No more standing around while PG X pounds the ball, the Lakers want to get back to SHOWTIME, and KCP totally fits this plan
6. In an offense designed to feature him and deliver the opportunity to STOP hanging out at the 3 point line, he's a better player

Even more importantly is who's in his corner: Magic and LeBron

Yes, LeBron, and that shocked me a bit, I never knew those two were close, but they are.
http://hoopshype.com/2017/07/19/kentavious-caldwell-pope-gives-lebron-james-agent-better-access-to-lakers/ wrote:However, it’s hard not to notice Paul (also a longtime friend of the Cavaliers star) now has a direct line of communication to general manager Rob Pelinka and the Lakers front office without fear of tampering.

Caldwell-Pope, whose future in Los Angeles is indefinite, said James is like a “big brother” to him. It’s worth mentioning that when Caldwell-Pope signed with the team, James tweeted his congratulations and called the 24-year-old guard his little brother.
I believe KCP made all the right moves, and judging from the way LeBron and his Wife wants to go to LA, I don't think KCP ever wanted to stay here, this opportunity is just too good.

Sparma wrote:I remembered that KCP had been offered 80 mil for 5 after the season, but had forgotten (per Freep) that he was offered 80 mil for 4 years before the season.  Oof.  That's a lot to pass up on.  Getting 20-22 mil for 4 or 5 years would have been a good guess, I think, before the season.  Passing that up before the season, with a significant risk of injury, posed quite a gamble.

In retrospect, that looks like a bad choice.

Also, it makes it more understandable that SVG wanted to move very quickly when alternatives presented themselves.  Bad to lose a pretty good, promising, SG for nothing but cap advantages, but we could still be discussing the KCP situation, wondering if a bid was going to come in at this point.   Maybe SVG didn't make the right decision (time will tell), but it kinda makes sense to go in a different direction if one really good offer and another good offer were turned down.

I continue to think it's easier for an agent to make a gamble for more money than for a player to walk away from 80 mil.  Players without agents used to get done in by front offices routinely; these days I think following the advice of the agent isn't always beneficial to the player.  I bet KCP would like to have the 80/4 offer back; he'd still be a young man at the end, eligible for another big contract.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:05 pm

Oracle wrote:This is a very good article on Drummond and how under SVG he want from efficient to inefficient, and how he could get better.

It's very detailed, but a good read and, IMO, shows how bad SVG has been in using, not only Drummond, but IMO, almost everybody on the team badly.

Like most here, I'm hoping for a big change from SVG, but I wouldn't put ANY money on it!

https://www.detroitbadboys.com/2017/7/19/15949492/detroit-pistons-andre-drummond-post-up-offense-burn-it-with-fire wrote:The Detroit Pistons are destroying what was once one of the most promising young careers in the NBA. The Pistons are sabotaging their own offense and limiting themselves to a ceiling of mediocrity. Yes, I’m talking about Andre Drummond post-ups.

Drummond has been and can be a difference-maker in the NBA. Perhaps one day he'll even grow into the superstar everybody wants him to be. But he'll never be a good post-up player.

They need to stop. Now.

It’s impossible to put the blame entirely on one person. Certainly, the combination of Drummond and Stan Van Gundy have led us down this path. But whether it’s primarily the guy shooting the shots or the one calling the plays doesn’t matter. Time has run out.

Oracle I highly respect your opinion but didn't you know that SVG was forced into another cover up to confess that he is to blame for anything that might reflect in a negative way in the direction of the team Captain. The press happily reports on SVG's failings too. This is one happy family with AD, TG, SVG, and the press. We fans are left to pick up the pieces and find some joy in watching the pre game dance that will be on that big screen next season. Stan is the whipping boy. The owner makes the decisions and everyday the value of the team grows regardless of how the team plays. So as Murph points out who can argue with that? If Andre wants to post up, he will get the ball or there will be hell to pay. If Andre doesn't want to play defense the coach better not use any harsh words even that one statement about not being engaged enough caused SVG to get a whipping. It is the pre game dancing and the shimmy that people will get next season Oracle. But how could you know? You are an honest fan. I am getting excited about SVG's post game press conferences next season to see how he spins it after loses. Who will he be told to blame. Will it be Ellenson, Johnson, Kennard, or Avery Bradley? Nobody will remember about the tip in by Andre's man.






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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:42 pm

Murph wrote:Don, you do realize you just quoted yourself, right?

Yes, clearly Drummond and Gores are good friends.  I'm guessing the two bonded several years ago, when Gores chaperoned Drummond and McCurdy on their date in LA.  

It would not surprise me if Drummond has Gores' personal cell phone number and permission to call him anytime...like when Marcus Morris spouts off in a players only meeting.

I admit this comes from the category of, "you can't make this stuff up."  Nevertheless, that is the reality that SVG is living in.  

But as bizarre as this may seem, who's to say, Gores is wrong?  After all, Gores bought the Pistons for $325 million in 2011, and they're now worth a nifty $900 million according to Forbes.  And that figure will increase even more when the Pistons move downtown.  So I'm sure Tom Gores has no qualms about being besties with Drummond, while he counts his $575 million in increased net worth in only 6 years.

Wow $900M is the current value of the Pistons? Don't go to medical school. Don't become an engineer. Start sweeping the floors or picking up garbage as a kid in some professional sports organization and move on up. It doesn't matter if the new arena is empty. Some rich person with a big ego will want to guy the Pistons regardless of what is going on relating to the actual games. Let's party! At some point this entire bubble will come crashing down as more and more people stop identifying with the entire NBA product. Then they might go out on Tuesday and Friday night and watch the local high school teams where innocent kids fight it out for their conference championship. No mega rich owners contaminating the game there yet. Sometimes whey you think that you have it all you wake up and realize that you don't. I really liked the interview with Bernie Korzar the Cleveland Browns old quarterback who stated peacefully and calmly that his own Father and family members stole most of his money before he even realized it. After getting married he soon realized that his wife had the same personality as his Father. They took it all from him and he was left with nothing but himself and his old injuries. Yet he knew that his life was a happier one than those who stole all those millions.

SVG, the coaching staff and the GM must have to walk on tip toes knowing they better not piss off Andre Drummond. Maybe this season Tom Gores will insist that SVG and all of his assistants dance with Andre in Andre's circle just to make sure that everyone knows that Andre Drummond is the captain. All of the lights ill go off and one big spot light will show Andre inside the circle telling the coaches to get out of the circle. SVG will have a puzzled look on his face and will flap his arms two times as he walks to his seat on the bench. Notes will be transferred during the games from the owner to SVG to insist on more post up plays for AD. The only living soul Stan will be able to vet to will be his dog who will still have behavior issues. I'll bet that Avery Bradley will not be one of the insignificant roster players who form the circle for the mega former all star AD. Fans like kid Rock who are close to the floor might hear Avery say what the hell is going on? Arn't we here to play basketball? Then Tom might appear out of nowhere after looking at his hidden cameras step and say do you want to be traded? This is Andre's team. Show him some support. Avery might be the only player who will say please trade me. Meanwhile after the game when SVG has to attend another beating at the post game press conference the snow is flying outside the arena and the windshield wipers are moving fast. Tom will be driving Andre and his date to a private party where movie deals will be discussed. Andre will feel a bit down after Whiteside gets another tip in over Andre's head to win the game but not to worry because the owner will be there to console our big center. After all who cares about the game anyway. the value of the Pistons will continue to rise. The local papers will report the following morning about the fierce fight that is going on for playing time at the power forward position with no mention of the last second win by Miami with that tip in. SVG will be forced to blame the Ellenson for causing the loss this time to divert attention from the team Captain. SVG won't tell the press about his special instructions from Tom after the game. The owner might insist that SVG place some extra consideration with playing time for those power forwards who cheer the loudest and clap while Andre does the shimmy during the games and shows the most support for Andre's pre game dance routine. Now that I think about it, maybe Tom Gores is on to something. Maybe this could turn into a situation where fans just come to see what will happen next with the AD and TG show. There will some great half time entertainment as well.


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Article: Andre Drummond post-up experiment must end

Post  Oracle on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:47 pm

This is a very good article on Drummond and how under SVG he want from efficient to inefficient, and how he could get better.

It's very detailed, but a good read and, IMO, shows how bad SVG has been in using, not only Drummond, but IMO, almost everybody on the team badly.

Like most here, I'm hoping for a big change from SVG, but I wouldn't put ANY money on it!

https://www.detroitbadboys.com/2017/7/19/15949492/detroit-pistons-andre-drummond-post-up-offense-burn-it-with-fire wrote:The Detroit Pistons are destroying what was once one of the most promising young careers in the NBA. The Pistons are sabotaging their own offense and limiting themselves to a ceiling of mediocrity. Yes, I’m talking about Andre Drummond post-ups.

Drummond has been and can be a difference-maker in the NBA. Perhaps one day he'll even grow into the superstar everybody wants him to be. But he'll never be a good post-up player.

They need to stop. Now.

It’s impossible to put the blame entirely on one person. Certainly, the combination of Drummond and Stan Van Gundy have led us down this path. But whether it’s primarily the guy shooting the shots or the one calling the plays doesn’t matter. Time has run out.
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I don't think so...

Post  Oracle on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:40 pm

There are a LOT of reasons this is an excellent move for KCP.

1. SVG is just a terrible coach, more on that in the next post
2. The Lakers offer a gold plated organization on the west coast! There's no end to the opportunities there if you're successful
3. Magic and the Lakers are happy to get him and the love in genuine
4. He gets a rookie in Ball, but after seeing summer league, that rookie is a fantastic distributor and one of the best on the break
5. No more standing around while PG X pounds the ball, the Lakers want to get back to SHOWTIME, and KCP totally fits this plan
6. In an offense designed to feature him and deliver the opportunity to STOP hanging out at the 3 point line, he's a better player

Even more importantly is who's in his corner: Magic and LeBron

Yes, LeBron, and that shocked me a bit, I never knew those two were close, but they are.
http://hoopshype.com/2017/07/19/kentavious-caldwell-pope-gives-lebron-james-agent-better-access-to-lakers/ wrote:However, it’s hard not to notice Paul (also a longtime friend of the Cavaliers star) now has a direct line of communication to general manager Rob Pelinka and the Lakers front office without fear of tampering.

Caldwell-Pope, whose future in Los Angeles is indefinite, said James is like a “big brother” to him. It’s worth mentioning that when Caldwell-Pope signed with the team, James tweeted his congratulations and called the 24-year-old guard his little brother.
I believe KCP made all the right moves, and judging from the way LeBron and his Wife wants to go to LA, I don't think KCP ever wanted to stay here, this opportunity is just too good.

Sparma wrote:I remembered that KCP had been offered 80 mil for 5 after the season, but had forgotten (per Freep) that he was offered 80 mil for 4 years before the season.  Oof.  That's a lot to pass up on.  Getting 20-22 mil for 4 or 5 years would have been a good guess, I think, before the season.  Passing that up before the season, with a significant risk of injury, posed quite a gamble.

In retrospect, that looks like a bad choice.

Also, it makes it more understandable that SVG wanted to move very quickly when alternatives presented themselves.  Bad to lose a pretty good, promising, SG for nothing but cap advantages, but we could still be discussing the KCP situation, wondering if a bid was going to come in at this point.   Maybe SVG didn't make the right decision (time will tell), but it kinda makes sense to go in a different direction if one really good offer and another good offer were turned down.

I continue to think it's easier for an agent to make a gamble for more money than for a player to walk away from 80 mil.  Players without agents used to get done in by front offices routinely; these days I think following the advice of the agent isn't always beneficial to the player.  I bet KCP would like to have the 80/4 offer back; he'd still be a young man at the end, eligible for another big contract.
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KCP

Post  Sparma on Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:47 pm

I remembered that KCP had been offered 80 mil for 5 after the season, but had forgotten (per Freep) that he was offered 80 mil for 4 years before the season. Oof. That's a lot to pass up on. Getting 20-22 mil for 4 or 5 years would have been a good guess, I think, before the season. Passing that up before the season, with a significant risk of injury, posed quite a gamble.

In retrospect, that looks like a bad choice.

Also, it makes it more understandable that SVG wanted to move very quickly when alternatives presented themselves. Bad to lose a pretty good, promising, SG for nothing but cap advantages, but we could still be discussing the KCP situation, wondering if a bid was going to come in at this point. Maybe SVG didn't make the right decision (time will tell), but it kinda makes sense to go in a different direction if one really good offer and another good offer were turned down.

I continue to think it's easier for an agent to make a gamble for more money than for a player to walk away from 80 mil. Players without agents used to get done in by front offices routinely; these days I think following the advice of the agent isn't always beneficial to the player. I bet KCP would like to have the 80/4 offer back; he'd still be a young man at the end, eligible for another big contract.
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Gores

Post  Murph on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:57 am

Don, you do realize you just quoted yourself, right?

Yes, clearly Drummond and Gores are good friends.  I'm guessing the two bonded several years ago, when Gores chaperoned Drummond and McCurdy on their date in LA.  

It would not surprise me if Drummond has Gores' personal cell phone number and permission to call him anytime...like when Marcus Morris spouts off in a players only meeting.

I admit this comes from the category of, "you can't make this stuff up."  Nevertheless, that is the reality that SVG is living in.  

But as bizarre as this may seem, who's to say, Gores is wrong?  After all, Gores bought the Pistons for $325 million in 2011, and they're now worth a nifty $900 million according to Forbes.  And that figure will increase even more when the Pistons move downtown. So I'm sure Tom Gores has no qualms about being besties with Drummond, while he counts his $575 million in increased net worth in only 6 years.



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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:05 pm

cool breeze wrote:It seems as soon as someone writes an article questioning Andre Drummond as possibly not being engaged enough to give the team what it needs most which again is paint protection, rim protection, and shot blocking, the press publishes a more positive spin on the Pistons starting center. Now we hear that Andre has lost around 20 pounds. That is great if true. Can he keep the weight off or will he gain it back around the Christmas holidays and continue to get larger like last season right up to the last regular season game? And of course there is again the big reminder that Andre Drummond was at one time added to the All Star team. Some say Andre's agent had so much influence that he made that happen. But whenever the heat is turned up relating to criticism of AD we are reminded that he was once an All Star. Andre wanted to be on the Olympic team but was not selected even though he made the All Star team so what does it really mean if you are added to the All Star team but cannot make the Olympic team? Will the loss of weight help Andre acquire quicker recognition skills? Is Andre busy this summer in study sessions memorizing opponents favorite tendencies or plays that Andre got tricked so many times on last season? Can Andre communicate and make the right decisions defending pick and roll? Will the addition of Bradley help make Drummond a better pick and roll defender? The coaches couldn't do it so we have to hope that being Bradley is one player who can think three steps ahead on defense, that he will take Andre aside and help him get the mental game down. If Andre's attitude has shifted in a positive direction, then the Pistons have something to cheer about. Then Detroit will only have one hole in the defense where opponents can concentrate to exploit which will be the point guard position. The Drew League report on Andre might be cause of more concern as Andre might be there to develop his offensive game more and then want more touches next season instead of giving the team what they most need. Can anyone guess what that might be? I don't think Drummond knows the answer to that question. Somehow when the word defense is mentioned, the subject is changed to his new post up game. On and on it goes Piston fans. Maybe that is why a lot of fans get excited about the idea that Andre is still on the trading block by SVG yet the owner will never agree to a trade involving his favorite player. But does the owner actually watch any of the games? How could Andre be his favorite player if he actually watched the games last season???

In the column today, the writer included one statement involving the owner and his special feelings for Andre Drummond. The Pistons are getting more like a soap opera. Will the owner manage to separate himself from the players when the regular season begins instead of allowing the anointed ones to walk all over the coaches again? Who has the power to run the team? Does the owner set the standards based on his phone calls with certain players or will the coach be able to do his job this time around? By the way, Sean Miller, who I highly respect says that Stan Van Gundy has always been a very smart coach and does the right thing for teams that he coaches. They coached together a long time ago so perhaps the politics involved with this ownership group might be responsible for creating a very difficult work environment. Live and learn the hard way if the ownership group are guilty of this basketball sin.  I would think that if the owner does act as a protector again this coming season, Stan Van Gundy will decide he has had enough. I wonder if the shooting coach Stan hired for Andre will be coming back. Somehow that doesn't seem likely. Stay tuned maybe in the morning Andre will be weighed and we will get a new report on his weight. I want a report on his brain. Will he decide to play the right way? Or will he play his way of course with the owners permission.

Since this post was written up pops another confirming story about "the divide" between the owner group "who are firmly in Andre Drummond's camp", Thanks for that article. No wonder as Oracle speculates correctly that this team has no plan. How can you have a plan when the team has a dysfunctional owner who should know better. Is it Tom Gores alone who does this or are the other owners involved? Seldom does a GM cause conflict by siding with a player over a coaching staff. They are professional basketball people. But in this case the owner gets his two cents in to completely take away control of the team's GM and coaching staff. Tom has a friendship with Andre Drummond. He can't know squat about basketball or the NBA to take sides with a player and especially a player like Andre Drummond.

My sincere apology to Stan Van Gundy, the coaching staff and the Piston's GM for anything I have said before this confirmation of exactly what they have had to deal with relating to this dysfunctional owner. Tom Gores and his ownership block made Andre Drummond the team leader last season. Neither the team or the coaching staff selected him. Tom and his meddling crew made that decision. I wondered how that kind of player could ever be a team leader but like the old Roman Rulers acted, Tom decreed it so. Andre The Untouchable, thanks to the owner, will never be a coachable player under the current system in place. No wonder he is even less coachable than he was before he arrived in Detroit. And this might shed more light relating to the players only meeting where some of us were upset that SVG got involved supporting Andre mouthing off about details of the meeting. The players only meeting made Andre Drummond very upset. So what was the owner to do but give SVG firm instructions to not allow that to happen ever again. And the ring leader of the players only meeting is traded this summer too. The owner has feeling like any human being. He formed this personal relationship with his guy and that is what is most important. So maybe nobody should show up at the new arena next fall and the owner can have the whole place to himself and of course the other owners who also have a crush on our team captain. I have never in my life heard of anything like that happening in the NBA but maybe it has been done before. Why not let AD be the head coach or player coach next year?

Move over Avery Bradley this is Andre Drummond's team. Bradley will be back in Boston after one year of this nonsense. But he will be forced to watch the shimmy and the circle dancing. Tom loves the circle dancing before the game starts. He is in the entertainment business after all. Who wants to see real basketball anyway?

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Damage control is in full swing now as more fans question Andre Drummond's work ethic and how it might not be a good thing for Andre to have that special relationship with the owner

Post  cool breeze on Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:16 pm

It seems as soon as someone writes an article questioning Andre Drummond as possibly not being engaged enough to give the team what it needs most which again is paint protection, rim protection, and shot blocking, the press publishes a more positive spin on the Pistons starting center. Now we hear that Andre has lost around 20 pounds. That is great if true. Can he keep the weight off or will he gain it back around the Christmas holidays and continue to get larger like last season right up to the last regular season game? And of course there is again the big reminder that Andre Drummond was at one time added to the All Star team. Some say Andre's agent had so much influence that he made that happen. But whenever the heat is turned up relating to criticism of AD we are reminded that he was once an All Star. Andre wanted to be on the Olympic team but was not selected even though he made the All Star team so what does it really mean if you are added to the All Star team but cannot make the Olympic team? Will the loss of weight help Andre acquire quicker recognition skills? Is Andre busy this summer in study sessions memorizing opponents favorite tendencies or plays that Andre got tricked so many times on last season? Can Andre communicate and make the right decisions defending pick and roll? Will the addition of Bradley help make Drummond a better pick and roll defender? The coaches couldn't do it so we have to hope that being Bradley is one player who can think three steps ahead on defense, that he will take Andre aside and help him get the mental game down. If Andre's attitude has shifted in a positive direction, then the Pistons have something to cheer about. Then Detroit will only have one hole in the defense where opponents can concentrate to exploit which will be the point guard position. The Drew League report on Andre might be cause of more concern as Andre might be there to develop his offensive game more and then want more touches next season instead of giving the team what they most need. Can anyone guess what that might be? I don't think Drummond knows the answer to that question. Somehow when the word defense is mentioned, the subject is changed to his new post up game. On and on it goes Piston fans. Maybe that is why a lot of fans get excited about the idea that Andre is still on the trading block by SVG yet the owner will never agree to a trade involving his favorite player. But does the owner actually watch any of the games? How could Andre be his favorite player if he actually watched the games last season???

In the column today, the writer included one statement involving the owner and his special feelings for Andre Drummond. The Pistons are getting more like a soap opera. Will the owner manage to separate himself from the players when the regular season begins instead of allowing the anointed ones to walk all over the coaches again? Who has the power to run the team? Does the owner set the standards based on his phone calls with certain players or will the coach be able to do his job this time around? By the way, Sean Miller, who I highly respect says that Stan Van Gundy has always been a very smart coach and does the right thing for teams that he coaches. They coached together a long time ago so perhaps the politics involved with this ownership group might be responsible for creating a very difficult work environment. Live and learn the hard way if the ownership group are guilty of this basketball sin. I would think that if the owner does act as a protector again this coming season, Stan Van Gundy will decide he has had enough. I wonder if the shooting coach Stan hired for Andre will be coming back. Somehow that doesn't seem likely. Stay tuned maybe in the morning Andre will be weighed and we will get a new report on his weight. I want a report on his brain. Will he decide to play the right way? Or will he play his way of course with the owners permission.

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Lemons, I Wonder

Post  BallinD on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:33 pm

Is SVG asleep at the wheel?  Dre should be losing weight, focusing on conditioning and rim protection strategies, passing out of the post and P&R defense strategies (admittedly not sexy).  

20 lbs is a good start, but he's no Marc Gasol, or Brook Lopez, who is gonna develop a nice shot this late in his career.  I don't think...  facepalm

I fear Dre is still too enamored with the shimmyshake and his dance routine, practicing for a future role of dancing with the stars. (Is he a star? No.) He thinks his offense is sexy...But It Ain't


Last edited by BallinD on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Oops)
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Summer dol-DRUMs

Post  lemonpen on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:14 pm

BallinD wrote:No Worries, I'm from Michigan, doesn't that sound a little like Missouri?  Color me skeptical to the Nnnnnnth degree, but it is offseason, so what else is there to do but speculate?  TT

Yeah, I know.

How did you like the part about Dre working on his midrange game. Funny though, there was no mention of improvement, or effort toward improving his UKW shooting.
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Lemons

Post  BallinD on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:05 pm

No Worries, I'm from Michigan, doesn't that sound a little like Missouri? Color me skeptical to the Nnnnnnth degree, but it is offseason, so what else is there to do but speculate? TT
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Beating the Drum

Post  lemonpen on Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 pm

BallinD wrote:Dare We Hope?  
20 lbs would be about right!  Will Avery and Tolliver do the rest to whip him into shape, with an assist from another year of maturity?

Link
: Drummond Lost Weight?

“This season was probably my toughest breathing year for me,” Drummond said. “It got progressively worse. My allergies were really bad and it was really hard for me to get that wind out there.”
Since then it’s all been pretty quiet on the Drummond off-season front, until recently. It emerged that Drummond took place in the Drew League, with the highlights of that above. As well as that, Stan Van Gundy recently came out and made some comments about Drummond’s progress this off-season

Twitter:
Rod Beard ✔️ @detnewsRodBeard
#Pistons SVG says Andre Drummond has lost about 20 pounds; biggest target area of improvement could be in "having a better motor."
1:18 PM - 17 Jul 2017


Is Drummond’s increased “motor” a by-product of his off-season surgery? Probably, but we won’t know until next season. What I do know is that an Andre Drummond that has lost weight and can breathe easier is an encouraging thing for Detroit Pistons fans.

Yeah, OK.
Regarding this high hope, by a show of hands, who is from Missouri?
TT TT TT TT TT TT TT TT
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Beating the Drum

Post  BallinD on Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:21 pm

Dare We Hope?  
20 lbs would be about right!  Will Avery and Tolliver do the rest to whip him into shape, with an assist from another year of maturity?

Link
: Drummond Lost Weight?

“This season was probably my toughest breathing year for me,” Drummond said. “It got progressively worse. My allergies were really bad and it was really hard for me to get that wind out there.”
Since then it’s all been pretty quiet on the Drummond off-season front, until recently. It emerged that Drummond took place in the Drew League, with the highlights of that above. As well as that, Stan Van Gundy recently came out and made some comments about Drummond’s progress this off-season

Twitter:
Rod Beard ✔ @detnewsRodBeard
#Pistons SVG says Andre Drummond has lost about 20 pounds; biggest target area of improvement could be in "having a better motor."
1:18 PM - 17 Jul 2017


Is Drummond’s increased “motor” a by-product of his off-season surgery? Probably, but we won’t know until next season. What I do know is that an Andre Drummond that has lost weight and can breathe easier is an encouraging thing for Detroit Pistons fans.
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What a Joke

Post  lemonpen on Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:56 pm

Writers and apparently SVG has forgotten rather quickly how poor a PF Mr. Tolliver was the last time around. Tolly should not be getting in Ellensons way toward significant PT. WAKE UP!!!!!. He is a LOCKER ROOM leader.
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Scott Perry and Stuff

Post  Murph on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:06 am

I see Detroit's very own Scott Perry has hit the big time. Perry replace HOFer Phil Jackson as General Manager of the Knicks. Perry is a Detroit native, and a Wanye State U alumn. Joe Dumars hired Perry for his first executive position with the Pistons in 2000.

I never liked the SVG hiring. I could never understand how Van Gundy could achieve so little during his time in Orlando, coaching Dwight Howard, future HOFer and best center in the NBA at the time, in his prime. SVG made one trip to the finals before he ran Howard out of town, and then left the team in tatters a year later. The Magic still haven't recovered.
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Free Press article prepares the fans for more of the same style of offense with ball dominate point guards Jackson and Smith

Post  cool breeze on Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:15 am

As if nothing bad had happened last season with the Piston's offense, SVG's GM is now trying to sell fans on who will play the point guard position next season. Somehow now it was never Jackson or Smith's fault as to why the Piston offense looked so flat with opposing teams having an easy time shutting down our players with point guard create everything type of offense. We do not have any All Star point guards according to the information that I have received. In my opinion and I am not alone opposing teams determined that the Piston's point guards and their center were the weakest areas with both the offense and the defense. But I guess according to the world of Stan Van Gundy and Jeff B. that was never the case. It was the other players who perhaps didn't stand exactly in those predetermined positions long enough to present proper decoys so the point guards could do their thing and make sure they shot or got the ball to Drummond for his post ups and the amazing baseline hook shot.

Langston Galloway we were told was supposed to be insurance for the delicate situation regarding Reggie Jackson's health. Langston was supposed to be a player who could defend and doesn't turn the basketball over much. I don't know very much about Galloway other than he will be making $7mil for the next 3 years and has moved around a lot in the past plus I don't believe he was ever drafted and came up the hard way. Now the idea that the point guard position is in good hands again with Reggie and Ish but neither player can be effective without having the ball 90% of the time in their hands. And neither point guard can defend starting caliber point guards from other NBA teams. So I think Oracle has nailed it when he said that Piston management might not really have a plan at all. Now Detroit has Bradley, Galloway for 7 million per, Bullock who plays the 2 & 3, Johnson who plays the 2 and 3, and lastly Luke Kennard. Looks like Luke will spent this season at the end of the bench or in the G league. To ever be effective in the NBA you have to get regular season game experience. But not to worry because all the other players that I have listed ahead of Kennard will not be happy players as long as SVG insists that his lame offense will work with the pick and roll between Reggie-Ish and of course the player who gives the most, Andre Drummond.

It seems that the front office says one thing and then does another in the end. Will the Pistons ever play the best 5 basketball players regardless of contracts and will the coaching staff devise an offensive and defensive system to actually fit the best players? Right now it appears they will create the best fit for their worst players. The starting lineup will still have two players in it that don't give a crap about learning how to play effective defense. It could be another dull season ahead just as many people have predicted. I can't imagine after the season this team had last year that the two weakest positions have not been upgraded. This team could be much better if they started Moreland at center and used Bradley, Galloway, Kennard, Bullock, Johnson or Harris to bring the ball up the court and use Jackson and Smith only when there are big matchup issues. Yet neither point guard who will lead the Pistons next season can even guard small point guards well. Something really smells in Piston land. That article was a planted story to tell us all not to be disappointed if SVG uses the same system that looked so bad last season. Did they think that story would actually sell any more season tickets?

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Paul Pierce signs one-day contract to retire as a member of the Boston Celtics

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:00 pm

I just LOVE this story!

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/paul-pierce-signs-one-day-contract-to-retire-as-a-member-of-the-boston-celtics/ wrote:Paul Pierce is a Boston Celtics legend. The franchise drafted him in 1998 and, despite growing up in Los Angeles, he immediately endeared himself to the city. Pierce led the Celtics through the entirety of the 2000's and with them he made the playoffs 10 times, including a championship in 2008.

Even though Pierce eventually was traded he was widely considered a Celtic for life and many people figured one day he'd finish his career there. That day is here. Pierce signed a one-day contract with Boston so he could retire with the franchise he knew for so long. It was a nice gesture from both sides.
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Quick trip back to my home State of Michigan brought the following responses from my relatives and friends about the Pistons

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:46 pm

"Stopped watching the Detroit Pistons. They are too soft"

"Can't imagine the owner allowing Andre Drummond to wear the Piston uniform ever again. Andre has a bad habit of playing at half speed for the last half of the season and instead of calling him out management including the coaches are very protective".

"The offensive style used by Detroit makes me think the head coach is dumb as a box of rocks. Stan Van Gundy is not a coach. He is a spectator who adores two players Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond and only can see hearts and flowers whenever they are on the court".

" The Pistons have some promising young players and now Avery Bradley but how much will the young guns play being that Stan Van Gundy is the coach?"

" As losing became the norm, none of the players seemed to look upset including the coaching staff. That is a bad sign. Why should anyone want to watch them this season when they made no effort to trade Jackson and Drummond and allowed the coaching staff to return with no changes?"

" Did you watch the stupid Piston offense where the only real point guard was Beno and he spent most of the season on the bench? Stan Van Gundy must like watching his point guards dribble around a lot and instruct his other skill players to stand like they are glued down in cement shoes.

" When will the coach do the right thing during game action? He allowed the two highest paid players to defend at a lower level than anyone on any other NBA team".

" It hate to watch the Pistons more than any other professional team in the State of Michigan now. Basketball is my favorite sport too but I can't stand fake basketball where the center fails to protect the paint and allows layups. The coach might just as well stay home. He never knows what is actually going on and has blinders on with players who do not try to play defense. The damage control team employed by Piston management have tried hard to use stats to tell us that the Pistons had an above average defense last season. Yet anytime I watched a game the starters could not get any stops when it counted."

" What has changed with the Pistons since Will Bynum played point guard for the Pistons. I could have sworn that Will was out there dribbling in a different body when I tuned in and watched a few minutes of Piston basketball last season. One guy dribbling around trying to be the star. Then another player replaces the starting ball hog and he does the same thing. And the coach loves it".

I never talked to any person who was optimistic that the Pistons will be fun to watch or have any more success than they had last season. But most had already written off the Pistons as their subject of interest and did not even pay any attention to the draft or the pick up of Avery Bradley. I was the only person who even wanted to talk about the Pistons. Everyone was annoyed that I even brought them up in a conversation. We posters might be negative but my best guess is that since Tom Gores bought this team, there has been a steady decline in interest in the Pistons. I was far more excited about watching the team next season than anyone I met. If the owner or SVG occasionally tunes into this forum to get a pulse of what people are thinking about the team, maybe they are reading a more favorable take on the state of the Pistons than the typical Michigan citizen. WOW! Crime and punishment. Management has tried to pull a fast one on the fans and they have lost. It will take something big to turn things around for the Detroit Pistons. Will that arena be half empty because Stan Van Gundy allowed a freak show and the owner might have protected the wrong players? Nobody will watch a team that has bad team chemistry. What was SVG thinking that all fans in Michigan are stupid?

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Stuff...

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:11 am

Amazingly good conversation around SVG and I think Sparma has reasoned a good theory how what lemonpen & I are saying could both make sense.

However, many of the fears we've had appear to be coming true, but if we win, we likely won't be as upset as if we're losing.

In case anybody's sniffer isn't working properly, SVG has stocked up the team with "Veterans", and we're actually pretty deep! With all of this veteran options off the bench, can anyone remember what SVG typically does?

Yeah that's right, he will play vets until the cows come home! Stanley has the biggest shot at major minutes, and could nail down the starting SF position, depending on how SVG plays it, and of course how he plays.

Take a look at the lineups predicted in this article, because I think they're close and they've obviously peeked SVG's hole card.
http://pistonpowered.com/2017/07/17/early-detroit-piston-predictions/ wrote:Now that the Detroit Pistons roster has been almost completed and we’re unlikely to see any more significant changes, we have a rough idea of their basic depth chart and rotation.
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Both ways/ coaching

Post  Sparma on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:02 am

Yes, there wouldn't be an inconsistency between what Lemonpen writes and saying SVG doesn't have a "good plan."  In fact, I suggested as much myself, although I had something different in mind than what who write, BallinD.  I was thinking of the limited upside of the plan.  Being on top of the info, acting quickly and decisively are good things, but they're of limited value if the aim is regular incremental upgrade.  For that to work, AD needed to emerge as a top player, with Reggie at near All Star level.  Still, I respect SVG's execution of his "plan", limited as it may be.  Also, I thought the stronger claim had been made multiple times that SVG just doesn't have a plan.

Concerning coaching, Deus, my general idea is that average NBA coaches don't make that much difference in relation to substitution level coaches that would be readily available, but (in agreement with you) that an excellent coach can make a real difference.  I'd add that a crummy coach can make a big difference too.  Controversial example: Steve Kerr helped Golden State make a leap forward beyond Mark Jackson.  An example, I think, of excellent coaching making a big difference.  But then, maybe contra my own example, but illustrating the general idea of coaches not making that much difference, Luke Walton and, later, Mike Brown stepped in for Kerr with the team, once it already achieved a high level of excellence, maintaining that level of excellence.  Larry Brown consistently raised the level of play of his (many) teams significantly, albeit only for a short while.  Run of the mill coaches, constituting the vast majority, don't seem to have anything like that impact.

BallinD wrote:So SVG wants to run his traditional 4 in 1 out scheme and is damned determined to run it at all costs.  So he goes out and once again tweaks his shooters, but not his scheme, even though his scheme is primitive and does not even take advantage of the easiest 3s, so there is that.  He evidently calls all the plays so who else is to blame.  

Is he himself partly to blame for the horrid team shooting because he designs plays running a bunch of inefficient shots, putting players in position to fail.   Kuester

When he encourages Weggie to hold the ball in search of the elusive perfect P&R and Dre to post up and the rest of the players to stand to the side, is this an example of him designing a play he is comfortable with (one that is as likely to fail as to work) in this case is he also demonstrating he has no actual "good plan." I guess it is playing it both ways.  mad mad

He depends on an antiquated and inefficient post up game that has been proven unsuccessful, and he has not taught Dre how to pass out of the post, so evidently it is doubling down on delusion. facepalm
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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:35 am

BallinD, Lemonpen, Sparma, Oracle, and Don, perhaps it's the way I say things, but the truth seems to be shining through...SVG sucks as a coach. Good coaches account for 3-5 additional wins a year, great coaches account for 5-10 additional wins a year. This doesn't guarantee championships, but it does mean the playoffs and have something to do with the seeding; SVG guarantees loses with his ridiculous decision making. SVG sucks as a coach!

At some point in time I've heard these sentiments echoed (or will); not playing rookies as if it's fashionable. It would make sense if your team was so stacked that it would make the team less effective by playing inexperience and working on player development, which hasn't been the case with the Pistons.

Panning for "NBA gold" to start. Why have proven starters or more effective players been relegated to the bench in favor of career backups starting? Pure stubbornness has kept that dead horse getting beat and the subliminal suggestion has been "perhaps this may work if...."

You guys have railed against that pathetic coaching staff SVG put together and in fact the apparent lack of communication between coach and staff....is it lack of communication, trust, or respect? Whatever it is, it's costing the team and disappointing the fans. I personally get the feeling SVG is not only president/coach, but offensive coordinator, defensive guru, teacher, and warden over the prisoners troops.

"What's your solution smart guy," did I hear someone say? Simple. Share the ball, protect the ball, shoot the ball when the shot is there. Selfish play, reckless ball handling, and ill-advised shot taking (when a teammate is open) are calls for immediate benching. That "dog house" practice is out the door, especially when it's so easy to have a non-productive, distracting, hard headed player exit through the door, Mr. President! Sit said player until he complies with team dynamics.

Lemon brought up a great point, if a coach is preaching defense why commit to starting the two worse defenders on the team? Drummond and Jackson by name! IMHO our team starts three weak ass defenders; Drummond, Jackson, and Leuer, all of which are mediocre scorers and that doesn't justify running them out there from night-to-night. Maybe one inept defender, but 2-3? Child please!!!

BallinD you're too kind calling SVG's 4 out 1 in scheme traditional; it's downright archaic! You're absolutely right though, he's "damned determined to run it at all costs." Drummond is too athletic to be trying to post up, he should be out on breaks, like an unstoppable freight train, putting back offensive rebounds, and taken to task to grow the f@ck up. An essential part of his professional growth is learning to use his feet and not his hands when it comes to defense...he blocks an adequate amount of shots, but he doesn't take enough charges or protects the paint as this fan expects him to.
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Both Ways Now

Post  BallinD on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:06 am

So SVG wants to run his traditional 4 in 1 out scheme and is damned determined to run it at all costs.  So he goes out and once again tweaks his shooters, but not his scheme, even though his scheme is primitive and does not even take advantage of the easiest 3s, so there is that.  He evidently calls all the plays so who else is to blame.  

Is he himself partly to blame for the horrid team shooting because he designs plays running a bunch of inefficient shots, putting players in position to fail.   Kuester

When he encourages Weggie to hold the ball in search of the elusive perfect P&R and Dre to post up and the rest of the players to stand to the side, is this an example of him designing a play he is comfortable with (one that is as likely to fail as to work) in this case is he also demonstrating he has no actual "good plan." I guess it is playing it both ways.  mad mad

He depends on an antiquated and inefficient post up game that has been proven unsuccessful, and he has not taught Dre how to pass out of the post, so evidently it is doubling down on delusion. facepalm


Last edited by BallinD on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:08 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Kuester)
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Can we have it both ways?

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:43 pm

1) Lemonpen writes: "I'm becoming more convinced that Stan is a one trick pony, needing a roster with a very specific and narrow skillset to have any sniff of success."

If Lemonpen's right, which he may well be, than it would seem that Stan has a very specific plan: build the kind of roster that he's comfortable with as coach.

2) But Oracle's opined that Stan doesn't have a plan, with BallinD among those agreeing, as I recall. Here too, there seems to be plenty of evidence to back up this proposition, what with all the zigging and sagging Stan's done (eg Tolliver in, out, in).

(1) and (2) appear to be in serious tension, this although there's much to back both assertions.

I think there's some tension, but also that the data backing 1 and 2 is more compatible than it looks.

What mediates the two contentions is how opportunistic, pragmatic, and flexible Stan is while attempting to shape the roster to his liking.

He preaches defense and shooting. He's acquired Bradley (shooting & D upgrade over KCP), Kennard (maybe the best shooter in the draft), Galloway (solid D & shooting for back up), Moreland (our best defensive C?), Tolliver (decent shooting for a back up) and retained Bullock (our best shooter?) after letting him go. Looks like a definite pattern to me.

In addition, I think he's worked this offseason to reunite the locker room, with Bradley, Tolliver, maybe Galloway (super affirming of SVG in the joint interview), being key lieutenants in the locker room.

There's evidence of apparent inconsistency too though, for instance, in letting a decent, potentially very good, young KCP (shooting & D) go for nothing. Dumb, taken as an individual action. SVG seems to have a great nose for getting a bargain (eg Morris, Bullock), yet Monroe and KCP disappeared for nothing but cap advantages, leaving aside Josh Smith. Yet it looks like he's pragmatically aiming for improvement of the big picture (of the type Lemon describes), seeing a shooting & D upgrade in Avery, and getting more cap flexibility, at least in the short run.

I see Stan & co consistently being committed to having detailed knowledge (eg they watch/ analyze all the games, which evidently wasn't happening earlier), so as to be able to move quickly and decisively, with the overall type of roster that Lemonpen describes as the goal.

How well that will work, I don't know. I love a very planny plan, like the Process. From my perspective, it's less that Stan doesn't have a plan, and more that the plan he attempts to actualize in zig zaggy pattern might just not be a great plan, leaving us well shy of the promised land.

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Re: FORUM

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