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Gores

Post  Murph on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:57 am

Don, you do realize you just quoted yourself, right?

Yes, clearly Drummond and Gores are good friends.  I'm guessing the two bonded several years ago, when Gores chaperoned Drummond and McCurdy on their date in LA.  

It would not surprise me if Drummond has Gores' personal cell phone number and permission to call him anytime...like when Marcus Morris spouts off in a players only meeting.

I admit this comes from the category of, "you can't make this stuff up."  Nevertheless, that is the reality that SVG is living in.  

But as bizarre as this may seem, who's to say, Gores is wrong?  After all, Gores bought the Pistons for $325 million in 2011, and they're now worth a nifty $900 million according to Forbes.  And that figure will increase even more when the Pistons move downtown. So I'm sure Tom Gores has no qualms about being besties with Drummond, while he counts his $575 million in increased net worth in only 6 years.



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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:05 pm

cool breeze wrote:It seems as soon as someone writes an article questioning Andre Drummond as possibly not being engaged enough to give the team what it needs most which again is paint protection, rim protection, and shot blocking, the press publishes a more positive spin on the Pistons starting center. Now we hear that Andre has lost around 20 pounds. That is great if true. Can he keep the weight off or will he gain it back around the Christmas holidays and continue to get larger like last season right up to the last regular season game? And of course there is again the big reminder that Andre Drummond was at one time added to the All Star team. Some say Andre's agent had so much influence that he made that happen. But whenever the heat is turned up relating to criticism of AD we are reminded that he was once an All Star. Andre wanted to be on the Olympic team but was not selected even though he made the All Star team so what does it really mean if you are added to the All Star team but cannot make the Olympic team? Will the loss of weight help Andre acquire quicker recognition skills? Is Andre busy this summer in study sessions memorizing opponents favorite tendencies or plays that Andre got tricked so many times on last season? Can Andre communicate and make the right decisions defending pick and roll? Will the addition of Bradley help make Drummond a better pick and roll defender? The coaches couldn't do it so we have to hope that being Bradley is one player who can think three steps ahead on defense, that he will take Andre aside and help him get the mental game down. If Andre's attitude has shifted in a positive direction, then the Pistons have something to cheer about. Then Detroit will only have one hole in the defense where opponents can concentrate to exploit which will be the point guard position. The Drew League report on Andre might be cause of more concern as Andre might be there to develop his offensive game more and then want more touches next season instead of giving the team what they most need. Can anyone guess what that might be? I don't think Drummond knows the answer to that question. Somehow when the word defense is mentioned, the subject is changed to his new post up game. On and on it goes Piston fans. Maybe that is why a lot of fans get excited about the idea that Andre is still on the trading block by SVG yet the owner will never agree to a trade involving his favorite player. But does the owner actually watch any of the games? How could Andre be his favorite player if he actually watched the games last season???

In the column today, the writer included one statement involving the owner and his special feelings for Andre Drummond. The Pistons are getting more like a soap opera. Will the owner manage to separate himself from the players when the regular season begins instead of allowing the anointed ones to walk all over the coaches again? Who has the power to run the team? Does the owner set the standards based on his phone calls with certain players or will the coach be able to do his job this time around? By the way, Sean Miller, who I highly respect says that Stan Van Gundy has always been a very smart coach and does the right thing for teams that he coaches. They coached together a long time ago so perhaps the politics involved with this ownership group might be responsible for creating a very difficult work environment. Live and learn the hard way if the ownership group are guilty of this basketball sin.  I would think that if the owner does act as a protector again this coming season, Stan Van Gundy will decide he has had enough. I wonder if the shooting coach Stan hired for Andre will be coming back. Somehow that doesn't seem likely. Stay tuned maybe in the morning Andre will be weighed and we will get a new report on his weight. I want a report on his brain. Will he decide to play the right way? Or will he play his way of course with the owners permission.

Since this post was written up pops another confirming story about "the divide" between the owner group "who are firmly in Andre Drummond's camp", Thanks for that article. No wonder as Oracle speculates correctly that this team has no plan. How can you have a plan when the team has a dysfunctional owner who should know better. Is it Tom Gores alone who does this or are the other owners involved? Seldom does a GM cause conflict by siding with a player over a coaching staff. They are professional basketball people. But in this case the owner gets his two cents in to completely take away control of the team's GM and coaching staff. Tom has a friendship with Andre Drummond. He can't know squat about basketball or the NBA to take sides with a player and especially a player like Andre Drummond.

My sincere apology to Stan Van Gundy, the coaching staff and the Piston's GM for anything I have said before this confirmation of exactly what they have had to deal with relating to this dysfunctional owner. Tom Gores and his ownership block made Andre Drummond the team leader last season. Neither the team or the coaching staff selected him. Tom and his meddling crew made that decision. I wondered how that kind of player could ever be a team leader but like the old Roman Rulers acted, Tom decreed it so. Andre The Untouchable, thanks to the owner, will never be a coachable player under the current system in place. No wonder he is even less coachable than he was before he arrived in Detroit. And this might shed more light relating to the players only meeting where some of us were upset that SVG got involved supporting Andre mouthing off about details of the meeting. The players only meeting made Andre Drummond very upset. So what was the owner to do but give SVG firm instructions to not allow that to happen ever again. And the ring leader of the players only meeting is traded this summer too. The owner has feeling like any human being. He formed this personal relationship with his guy and that is what is most important. So maybe nobody should show up at the new arena next fall and the owner can have the whole place to himself and of course the other owners who also have a crush on our team captain. I have never in my life heard of anything like that happening in the NBA but maybe it has been done before. Why not let AD be the head coach or player coach next year?

Move over Avery Bradley this is Andre Drummond's team. Bradley will be back in Boston after one year of this nonsense. But he will be forced to watch the shimmy and the circle dancing. Tom loves the circle dancing before the game starts. He is in the entertainment business after all. Who wants to see real basketball anyway?

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Damage control is in full swing now as more fans question Andre Drummond's work ethic and how it might not be a good thing for Andre to have that special relationship with the owner

Post  cool breeze on Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:16 pm

It seems as soon as someone writes an article questioning Andre Drummond as possibly not being engaged enough to give the team what it needs most which again is paint protection, rim protection, and shot blocking, the press publishes a more positive spin on the Pistons starting center. Now we hear that Andre has lost around 20 pounds. That is great if true. Can he keep the weight off or will he gain it back around the Christmas holidays and continue to get larger like last season right up to the last regular season game? And of course there is again the big reminder that Andre Drummond was at one time added to the All Star team. Some say Andre's agent had so much influence that he made that happen. But whenever the heat is turned up relating to criticism of AD we are reminded that he was once an All Star. Andre wanted to be on the Olympic team but was not selected even though he made the All Star team so what does it really mean if you are added to the All Star team but cannot make the Olympic team? Will the loss of weight help Andre acquire quicker recognition skills? Is Andre busy this summer in study sessions memorizing opponents favorite tendencies or plays that Andre got tricked so many times on last season? Can Andre communicate and make the right decisions defending pick and roll? Will the addition of Bradley help make Drummond a better pick and roll defender? The coaches couldn't do it so we have to hope that being Bradley is one player who can think three steps ahead on defense, that he will take Andre aside and help him get the mental game down. If Andre's attitude has shifted in a positive direction, then the Pistons have something to cheer about. Then Detroit will only have one hole in the defense where opponents can concentrate to exploit which will be the point guard position. The Drew League report on Andre might be cause of more concern as Andre might be there to develop his offensive game more and then want more touches next season instead of giving the team what they most need. Can anyone guess what that might be? I don't think Drummond knows the answer to that question. Somehow when the word defense is mentioned, the subject is changed to his new post up game. On and on it goes Piston fans. Maybe that is why a lot of fans get excited about the idea that Andre is still on the trading block by SVG yet the owner will never agree to a trade involving his favorite player. But does the owner actually watch any of the games? How could Andre be his favorite player if he actually watched the games last season???

In the column today, the writer included one statement involving the owner and his special feelings for Andre Drummond. The Pistons are getting more like a soap opera. Will the owner manage to separate himself from the players when the regular season begins instead of allowing the anointed ones to walk all over the coaches again? Who has the power to run the team? Does the owner set the standards based on his phone calls with certain players or will the coach be able to do his job this time around? By the way, Sean Miller, who I highly respect says that Stan Van Gundy has always been a very smart coach and does the right thing for teams that he coaches. They coached together a long time ago so perhaps the politics involved with this ownership group might be responsible for creating a very difficult work environment. Live and learn the hard way if the ownership group are guilty of this basketball sin. I would think that if the owner does act as a protector again this coming season, Stan Van Gundy will decide he has had enough. I wonder if the shooting coach Stan hired for Andre will be coming back. Somehow that doesn't seem likely. Stay tuned maybe in the morning Andre will be weighed and we will get a new report on his weight. I want a report on his brain. Will he decide to play the right way? Or will he play his way of course with the owners permission.

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Lemons, I Wonder

Post  BallinD on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:33 pm

Is SVG asleep at the wheel?  Dre should be losing weight, focusing on conditioning and rim protection strategies, passing out of the post and P&R defense strategies (admittedly not sexy).  

20 lbs is a good start, but he's no Marc Gasol, or Brook Lopez, who is gonna develop a nice shot this late in his career.  I don't think...  facepalm

I fear Dre is still too enamored with the shimmyshake and his dance routine, practicing for a future role of dancing with the stars. (Is he a star? No.) He thinks his offense is sexy...But It Ain't


Last edited by BallinD on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Oops)
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Summer dol-DRUMs

Post  lemonpen on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:14 pm

BallinD wrote:No Worries, I'm from Michigan, doesn't that sound a little like Missouri?  Color me skeptical to the Nnnnnnth degree, but it is offseason, so what else is there to do but speculate?  TT

Yeah, I know.

How did you like the part about Dre working on his midrange game. Funny though, there was no mention of improvement, or effort toward improving his UKW shooting.
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Lemons

Post  BallinD on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:05 pm

No Worries, I'm from Michigan, doesn't that sound a little like Missouri? Color me skeptical to the Nnnnnnth degree, but it is offseason, so what else is there to do but speculate? TT
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Beating the Drum

Post  lemonpen on Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 pm

BallinD wrote:Dare We Hope?  
20 lbs would be about right!  Will Avery and Tolliver do the rest to whip him into shape, with an assist from another year of maturity?

Link
: Drummond Lost Weight?

“This season was probably my toughest breathing year for me,” Drummond said. “It got progressively worse. My allergies were really bad and it was really hard for me to get that wind out there.”
Since then it’s all been pretty quiet on the Drummond off-season front, until recently. It emerged that Drummond took place in the Drew League, with the highlights of that above. As well as that, Stan Van Gundy recently came out and made some comments about Drummond’s progress this off-season

Twitter:
Rod Beard ✔️ @detnewsRodBeard
#Pistons SVG says Andre Drummond has lost about 20 pounds; biggest target area of improvement could be in "having a better motor."
1:18 PM - 17 Jul 2017


Is Drummond’s increased “motor” a by-product of his off-season surgery? Probably, but we won’t know until next season. What I do know is that an Andre Drummond that has lost weight and can breathe easier is an encouraging thing for Detroit Pistons fans.

Yeah, OK.
Regarding this high hope, by a show of hands, who is from Missouri?
TT TT TT TT TT TT TT TT
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Beating the Drum

Post  BallinD on Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:21 pm

Dare We Hope?  
20 lbs would be about right!  Will Avery and Tolliver do the rest to whip him into shape, with an assist from another year of maturity?

Link
: Drummond Lost Weight?

“This season was probably my toughest breathing year for me,” Drummond said. “It got progressively worse. My allergies were really bad and it was really hard for me to get that wind out there.”
Since then it’s all been pretty quiet on the Drummond off-season front, until recently. It emerged that Drummond took place in the Drew League, with the highlights of that above. As well as that, Stan Van Gundy recently came out and made some comments about Drummond’s progress this off-season

Twitter:
Rod Beard ✔ @detnewsRodBeard
#Pistons SVG says Andre Drummond has lost about 20 pounds; biggest target area of improvement could be in "having a better motor."
1:18 PM - 17 Jul 2017


Is Drummond’s increased “motor” a by-product of his off-season surgery? Probably, but we won’t know until next season. What I do know is that an Andre Drummond that has lost weight and can breathe easier is an encouraging thing for Detroit Pistons fans.
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What a Joke

Post  lemonpen on Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:56 pm

Writers and apparently SVG has forgotten rather quickly how poor a PF Mr. Tolliver was the last time around. Tolly should not be getting in Ellensons way toward significant PT. WAKE UP!!!!!. He is a LOCKER ROOM leader.
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Scott Perry and Stuff

Post  Murph on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:06 am

I see Detroit's very own Scott Perry has hit the big time. Perry replace HOFer Phil Jackson as General Manager of the Knicks. Perry is a Detroit native, and a Wanye State U alumn. Joe Dumars hired Perry for his first executive position with the Pistons in 2000.

I never liked the SVG hiring. I could never understand how Van Gundy could achieve so little during his time in Orlando, coaching Dwight Howard, future HOFer and best center in the NBA at the time, in his prime. SVG made one trip to the finals before he ran Howard out of town, and then left the team in tatters a year later. The Magic still haven't recovered.
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Free Press article prepares the fans for more of the same style of offense with ball dominate point guards Jackson and Smith

Post  cool breeze on Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:15 am

As if nothing bad had happened last season with the Piston's offense, SVG's GM is now trying to sell fans on who will play the point guard position next season. Somehow now it was never Jackson or Smith's fault as to why the Piston offense looked so flat with opposing teams having an easy time shutting down our players with point guard create everything type of offense. We do not have any All Star point guards according to the information that I have received. In my opinion and I am not alone opposing teams determined that the Piston's point guards and their center were the weakest areas with both the offense and the defense. But I guess according to the world of Stan Van Gundy and Jeff B. that was never the case. It was the other players who perhaps didn't stand exactly in those predetermined positions long enough to present proper decoys so the point guards could do their thing and make sure they shot or got the ball to Drummond for his post ups and the amazing baseline hook shot.

Langston Galloway we were told was supposed to be insurance for the delicate situation regarding Reggie Jackson's health. Langston was supposed to be a player who could defend and doesn't turn the basketball over much. I don't know very much about Galloway other than he will be making $7mil for the next 3 years and has moved around a lot in the past plus I don't believe he was ever drafted and came up the hard way. Now the idea that the point guard position is in good hands again with Reggie and Ish but neither player can be effective without having the ball 90% of the time in their hands. And neither point guard can defend starting caliber point guards from other NBA teams. So I think Oracle has nailed it when he said that Piston management might not really have a plan at all. Now Detroit has Bradley, Galloway for 7 million per, Bullock who plays the 2 & 3, Johnson who plays the 2 and 3, and lastly Luke Kennard. Looks like Luke will spent this season at the end of the bench or in the G league. To ever be effective in the NBA you have to get regular season game experience. But not to worry because all the other players that I have listed ahead of Kennard will not be happy players as long as SVG insists that his lame offense will work with the pick and roll between Reggie-Ish and of course the player who gives the most, Andre Drummond.

It seems that the front office says one thing and then does another in the end. Will the Pistons ever play the best 5 basketball players regardless of contracts and will the coaching staff devise an offensive and defensive system to actually fit the best players? Right now it appears they will create the best fit for their worst players. The starting lineup will still have two players in it that don't give a crap about learning how to play effective defense. It could be another dull season ahead just as many people have predicted. I can't imagine after the season this team had last year that the two weakest positions have not been upgraded. This team could be much better if they started Moreland at center and used Bradley, Galloway, Kennard, Bullock, Johnson or Harris to bring the ball up the court and use Jackson and Smith only when there are big matchup issues. Yet neither point guard who will lead the Pistons next season can even guard small point guards well. Something really smells in Piston land. That article was a planted story to tell us all not to be disappointed if SVG uses the same system that looked so bad last season. Did they think that story would actually sell any more season tickets?

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Paul Pierce signs one-day contract to retire as a member of the Boston Celtics

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:00 pm

I just LOVE this story!

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/paul-pierce-signs-one-day-contract-to-retire-as-a-member-of-the-boston-celtics/ wrote:Paul Pierce is a Boston Celtics legend. The franchise drafted him in 1998 and, despite growing up in Los Angeles, he immediately endeared himself to the city. Pierce led the Celtics through the entirety of the 2000's and with them he made the playoffs 10 times, including a championship in 2008.

Even though Pierce eventually was traded he was widely considered a Celtic for life and many people figured one day he'd finish his career there. That day is here. Pierce signed a one-day contract with Boston so he could retire with the franchise he knew for so long. It was a nice gesture from both sides.
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Quick trip back to my home State of Michigan brought the following responses from my relatives and friends about the Pistons

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:46 pm

"Stopped watching the Detroit Pistons. They are too soft"

"Can't imagine the owner allowing Andre Drummond to wear the Piston uniform ever again. Andre has a bad habit of playing at half speed for the last half of the season and instead of calling him out management including the coaches are very protective".

"The offensive style used by Detroit makes me think the head coach is dumb as a box of rocks. Stan Van Gundy is not a coach. He is a spectator who adores two players Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond and only can see hearts and flowers whenever they are on the court".

" The Pistons have some promising young players and now Avery Bradley but how much will the young guns play being that Stan Van Gundy is the coach?"

" As losing became the norm, none of the players seemed to look upset including the coaching staff. That is a bad sign. Why should anyone want to watch them this season when they made no effort to trade Jackson and Drummond and allowed the coaching staff to return with no changes?"

" Did you watch the stupid Piston offense where the only real point guard was Beno and he spent most of the season on the bench? Stan Van Gundy must like watching his point guards dribble around a lot and instruct his other skill players to stand like they are glued down in cement shoes.

" When will the coach do the right thing during game action? He allowed the two highest paid players to defend at a lower level than anyone on any other NBA team".

" It hate to watch the Pistons more than any other professional team in the State of Michigan now. Basketball is my favorite sport too but I can't stand fake basketball where the center fails to protect the paint and allows layups. The coach might just as well stay home. He never knows what is actually going on and has blinders on with players who do not try to play defense. The damage control team employed by Piston management have tried hard to use stats to tell us that the Pistons had an above average defense last season. Yet anytime I watched a game the starters could not get any stops when it counted."

" What has changed with the Pistons since Will Bynum played point guard for the Pistons. I could have sworn that Will was out there dribbling in a different body when I tuned in and watched a few minutes of Piston basketball last season. One guy dribbling around trying to be the star. Then another player replaces the starting ball hog and he does the same thing. And the coach loves it".

I never talked to any person who was optimistic that the Pistons will be fun to watch or have any more success than they had last season. But most had already written off the Pistons as their subject of interest and did not even pay any attention to the draft or the pick up of Avery Bradley. I was the only person who even wanted to talk about the Pistons. Everyone was annoyed that I even brought them up in a conversation. We posters might be negative but my best guess is that since Tom Gores bought this team, there has been a steady decline in interest in the Pistons. I was far more excited about watching the team next season than anyone I met. If the owner or SVG occasionally tunes into this forum to get a pulse of what people are thinking about the team, maybe they are reading a more favorable take on the state of the Pistons than the typical Michigan citizen. WOW! Crime and punishment. Management has tried to pull a fast one on the fans and they have lost. It will take something big to turn things around for the Detroit Pistons. Will that arena be half empty because Stan Van Gundy allowed a freak show and the owner might have protected the wrong players? Nobody will watch a team that has bad team chemistry. What was SVG thinking that all fans in Michigan are stupid?

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Stuff...

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:11 am

Amazingly good conversation around SVG and I think Sparma has reasoned a good theory how what lemonpen & I are saying could both make sense.

However, many of the fears we've had appear to be coming true, but if we win, we likely won't be as upset as if we're losing.

In case anybody's sniffer isn't working properly, SVG has stocked up the team with "Veterans", and we're actually pretty deep! With all of this veteran options off the bench, can anyone remember what SVG typically does?

Yeah that's right, he will play vets until the cows come home! Stanley has the biggest shot at major minutes, and could nail down the starting SF position, depending on how SVG plays it, and of course how he plays.

Take a look at the lineups predicted in this article, because I think they're close and they've obviously peeked SVG's hole card.
http://pistonpowered.com/2017/07/17/early-detroit-piston-predictions/ wrote:Now that the Detroit Pistons roster has been almost completed and we’re unlikely to see any more significant changes, we have a rough idea of their basic depth chart and rotation.
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Both ways/ coaching

Post  Sparma on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:02 am

Yes, there wouldn't be an inconsistency between what Lemonpen writes and saying SVG doesn't have a "good plan."  In fact, I suggested as much myself, although I had something different in mind than what who write, BallinD.  I was thinking of the limited upside of the plan.  Being on top of the info, acting quickly and decisively are good things, but they're of limited value if the aim is regular incremental upgrade.  For that to work, AD needed to emerge as a top player, with Reggie at near All Star level.  Still, I respect SVG's execution of his "plan", limited as it may be.  Also, I thought the stronger claim had been made multiple times that SVG just doesn't have a plan.

Concerning coaching, Deus, my general idea is that average NBA coaches don't make that much difference in relation to substitution level coaches that would be readily available, but (in agreement with you) that an excellent coach can make a real difference.  I'd add that a crummy coach can make a big difference too.  Controversial example: Steve Kerr helped Golden State make a leap forward beyond Mark Jackson.  An example, I think, of excellent coaching making a big difference.  But then, maybe contra my own example, but illustrating the general idea of coaches not making that much difference, Luke Walton and, later, Mike Brown stepped in for Kerr with the team, once it already achieved a high level of excellence, maintaining that level of excellence.  Larry Brown consistently raised the level of play of his (many) teams significantly, albeit only for a short while.  Run of the mill coaches, constituting the vast majority, don't seem to have anything like that impact.

BallinD wrote:So SVG wants to run his traditional 4 in 1 out scheme and is damned determined to run it at all costs.  So he goes out and once again tweaks his shooters, but not his scheme, even though his scheme is primitive and does not even take advantage of the easiest 3s, so there is that.  He evidently calls all the plays so who else is to blame.  

Is he himself partly to blame for the horrid team shooting because he designs plays running a bunch of inefficient shots, putting players in position to fail.   Kuester

When he encourages Weggie to hold the ball in search of the elusive perfect P&R and Dre to post up and the rest of the players to stand to the side, is this an example of him designing a play he is comfortable with (one that is as likely to fail as to work) in this case is he also demonstrating he has no actual "good plan." I guess it is playing it both ways.  mad mad

He depends on an antiquated and inefficient post up game that has been proven unsuccessful, and he has not taught Dre how to pass out of the post, so evidently it is doubling down on delusion. facepalm
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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:35 am

BallinD, Lemonpen, Sparma, Oracle, and Don, perhaps it's the way I say things, but the truth seems to be shining through...SVG sucks as a coach. Good coaches account for 3-5 additional wins a year, great coaches account for 5-10 additional wins a year. This doesn't guarantee championships, but it does mean the playoffs and have something to do with the seeding; SVG guarantees loses with his ridiculous decision making. SVG sucks as a coach!

At some point in time I've heard these sentiments echoed (or will); not playing rookies as if it's fashionable. It would make sense if your team was so stacked that it would make the team less effective by playing inexperience and working on player development, which hasn't been the case with the Pistons.

Panning for "NBA gold" to start. Why have proven starters or more effective players been relegated to the bench in favor of career backups starting? Pure stubbornness has kept that dead horse getting beat and the subliminal suggestion has been "perhaps this may work if...."

You guys have railed against that pathetic coaching staff SVG put together and in fact the apparent lack of communication between coach and staff....is it lack of communication, trust, or respect? Whatever it is, it's costing the team and disappointing the fans. I personally get the feeling SVG is not only president/coach, but offensive coordinator, defensive guru, teacher, and warden over the prisoners troops.

"What's your solution smart guy," did I hear someone say? Simple. Share the ball, protect the ball, shoot the ball when the shot is there. Selfish play, reckless ball handling, and ill-advised shot taking (when a teammate is open) are calls for immediate benching. That "dog house" practice is out the door, especially when it's so easy to have a non-productive, distracting, hard headed player exit through the door, Mr. President! Sit said player until he complies with team dynamics.

Lemon brought up a great point, if a coach is preaching defense why commit to starting the two worse defenders on the team? Drummond and Jackson by name! IMHO our team starts three weak ass defenders; Drummond, Jackson, and Leuer, all of which are mediocre scorers and that doesn't justify running them out there from night-to-night. Maybe one inept defender, but 2-3? Child please!!!

BallinD you're too kind calling SVG's 4 out 1 in scheme traditional; it's downright archaic! You're absolutely right though, he's "damned determined to run it at all costs." Drummond is too athletic to be trying to post up, he should be out on breaks, like an unstoppable freight train, putting back offensive rebounds, and taken to task to grow the f@ck up. An essential part of his professional growth is learning to use his feet and not his hands when it comes to defense...he blocks an adequate amount of shots, but he doesn't take enough charges or protects the paint as this fan expects him to.
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Both Ways Now

Post  BallinD on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:06 am

So SVG wants to run his traditional 4 in 1 out scheme and is damned determined to run it at all costs.  So he goes out and once again tweaks his shooters, but not his scheme, even though his scheme is primitive and does not even take advantage of the easiest 3s, so there is that.  He evidently calls all the plays so who else is to blame.  

Is he himself partly to blame for the horrid team shooting because he designs plays running a bunch of inefficient shots, putting players in position to fail.   Kuester

When he encourages Weggie to hold the ball in search of the elusive perfect P&R and Dre to post up and the rest of the players to stand to the side, is this an example of him designing a play he is comfortable with (one that is as likely to fail as to work) in this case is he also demonstrating he has no actual "good plan." I guess it is playing it both ways.  mad mad

He depends on an antiquated and inefficient post up game that has been proven unsuccessful, and he has not taught Dre how to pass out of the post, so evidently it is doubling down on delusion. facepalm


Last edited by BallinD on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:08 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Kuester)
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Can we have it both ways?

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:43 pm

1) Lemonpen writes: "I'm becoming more convinced that Stan is a one trick pony, needing a roster with a very specific and narrow skillset to have any sniff of success."

If Lemonpen's right, which he may well be, than it would seem that Stan has a very specific plan: build the kind of roster that he's comfortable with as coach.

2) But Oracle's opined that Stan doesn't have a plan, with BallinD among those agreeing, as I recall. Here too, there seems to be plenty of evidence to back up this proposition, what with all the zigging and sagging Stan's done (eg Tolliver in, out, in).

(1) and (2) appear to be in serious tension, this although there's much to back both assertions.

I think there's some tension, but also that the data backing 1 and 2 is more compatible than it looks.

What mediates the two contentions is how opportunistic, pragmatic, and flexible Stan is while attempting to shape the roster to his liking.

He preaches defense and shooting. He's acquired Bradley (shooting & D upgrade over KCP), Kennard (maybe the best shooter in the draft), Galloway (solid D & shooting for back up), Moreland (our best defensive C?), Tolliver (decent shooting for a back up) and retained Bullock (our best shooter?) after letting him go. Looks like a definite pattern to me.

In addition, I think he's worked this offseason to reunite the locker room, with Bradley, Tolliver, maybe Galloway (super affirming of SVG in the joint interview), being key lieutenants in the locker room.

There's evidence of apparent inconsistency too though, for instance, in letting a decent, potentially very good, young KCP (shooting & D) go for nothing. Dumb, taken as an individual action. SVG seems to have a great nose for getting a bargain (eg Morris, Bullock), yet Monroe and KCP disappeared for nothing but cap advantages, leaving aside Josh Smith. Yet it looks like he's pragmatically aiming for improvement of the big picture (of the type Lemon describes), seeing a shooting & D upgrade in Avery, and getting more cap flexibility, at least in the short run.

I see Stan & co consistently being committed to having detailed knowledge (eg they watch/ analyze all the games, which evidently wasn't happening earlier), so as to be able to move quickly and decisively, with the overall type of roster that Lemonpen describes as the goal.

How well that will work, I don't know. I love a very planny plan, like the Process. From my perspective, it's less that Stan doesn't have a plan, and more that the plan he attempts to actualize in zig zaggy pattern might just not be a great plan, leaving us well shy of the promised land.

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Forest or Trees

Post  lemonpen on Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:57 pm

The two worst defenders in the starting unit are still here.
The PG who holds the ball longer than almost anyone in the league (and gets less out of it) is still starting.
The C who a local rag all but outright called SOFT ("no innate toughness") is still starting.
The coach who steadfastly preached DEFENSE then quickly moved away from a rotation that produced a top 10 D, and stayed away, is still leading the band.

Guys,  SVG encouraged his gang that couldn't shoot straight to keep firing away despite mounting data to the contrary.

Look at the resumes of our new faces.  Galloway, Bradley, Tolly, Kennard.  News flash, this shyt ain't changing.  We will continue to run a P&R with improved perimeter shooters.  Reggie will continue trying to be Westbrook 2.0 while everyone waists their careers watching.  

I'm becoming more convinced that Stan is a one trick pony, needing a roster with a very specific and narrow skillset to have any sniff of success.  Can't wait to see if I'm proved otherwise.
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Forum

Post  BallinD on Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:20 pm

@Murph, DX, Cool: Guys, I can hope there are scenarios where Bradley is out there with Kennard and maybe Galloway or Bullock and we see those two running the Offense with secondary ball handlers, secondary pick and rolls and the ball swinging from side-to-side, players cutting off screens.

If Stan likes what he sees, then maybe he will wake up from the dream/nightmare of the Dre/Weggie show. IMHO, it will take a small miracle to get SVG to go as far as to let Bradley run point, but I could be wrong.
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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:56 pm

cool breeze wrote:
Murph wrote:To me the long term key to Avery Bradley in Detroit is whether or not he can transition to a PG or even a combo guard, like he was when he came into the league.  Everyone is calling for an upgrade at the PG position.  It's just possible Bradley could provide this.  

If I were SVG, I'd give Bradley a lot of reserve PG minutes, and see what he can do.  And if the Pistons are not satisfied that Bradley can make the transition, they can always let him walk at the end of the year, start Kennard the following year, and try to find another starting PG, if Jackson doesn't fully recover.


My hope for Boban is that he can play significant minutes in close games in the 4th quarter.  As many have already pointed out, hack-a-Dre is killing us in close games down the stretch.  I would have no qualms about Boban finishing close games to neutralize Drummond's poor free throw shooting and hack-a-Dre.

Murph let's hope that Bradley does get point guard minutes this season. If Reggie plays with that look that he is out of gas after three minutes on the court we could see Avery starting at point guard depending on how the other two point guards pan out this season. Bradley was an extremely effective 2 guard last season playing with another ball dominate point guard in Thomas. He has learned how to find the open spots and uses screens well. Hopefully Johnson does win the starting small forward spot because it will be refreshing to see him set hard screens for guys like Bradley and Harris if SVG uses more of a motion offense. Last season the team created a new offense called the no motion offense when 4 players stand in place so the point guards can show off their ability to make something happen. How do I do that coach? Don't ask me just do it. That was the strategy last season. Or should I say there was no strategy in the half court set. Some of us call that mindless AAU style basketball but that should be reserved for high school players. SVG gets the dunce cap award for his inability to make adjustments when everyone including the cheer leaders had difficulty watching Piston games.

Bradley doesn't have to become the Piston's starting point guard but if he does that would be really cool. Avery Bradley is the first real close to top tier NBA player that Detroit has had in a long time. He has all the right stuff to make you think you are watching one of the old Bad Boys. He was one of the top performers in the playoffs last season. When Thomas went down with his injury, Bradley became the leader and clutch player. Boston fans are very sad now because he was perhaps their favorite player. He was the guy who made key steals and stops in crunch time all season long for Boston. Detroit management needs to sign this player above any player we have had in years. He changes the team chemistry and style. Just stay injury free Avery.
We have a coach who's not shown the ability to make adjustments, when things are going wrong, or formulate a workable rotation, but should expect Avery Bradley to transition into a PG in one year. SVG has a team that's not shown any chemistry or has any real leadership, but is content to allow Smith and Galloway to rot on the bench while Bradley learns to be a combo guard. We've not had an All-League anything, but before Bradley suits up, we should have him concentrating on something that'd certainly be a distraction to what's made him the valuable commodity he is (to everybody but us). At 6' 2" he started alongside a 5' 9" PG and was quite successful; Thomas and Jackson are two different type ball dominate PG's and fans league wide would agree (at least more than would disagree). If Reggie doesn't fully recover (and begin to play like he's a part of a team) I'd have no problem with Bradley starting alongside Smith or Galloway, but I'm not wasting what could possibly be our only season trying to transform Bradley into something he ain't.

I'm all for Boban playing significant minutes in close games, particularly since Drummond has willfully neglected working on his FT's...this is gospel Murph. It's SVG's job as HC to work out a rotation where Kennard, Johnson, and Ellenson get significant development minutes and along the way (once SVG stops b!tch!ng about back-to-back games) playing Galloway, Tolliver, Bullock, Boban, Smith, and Moreland extensively. This is an easy doable, process...just trust the players you're paying to play.

I'm for resigning Bradley and building on what he brings to the team; toughness, competitiveness,...nasty. I know Stanley Johnson has it and I believe Luke Kennard has a nasty streak in him also. We've got a potentially awesome small ball team, if one takes an open minded look at it; Galloway PG, Bradley SG, Kennard SF, Johnson PF, and Moreland at center. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 pm

BallinD wrote:Cool, what can I say, you continue to hit it out of the park again with this last post.  Is it Tom Gores who makes Andre a sacred cow who cannot be coached, directed or trained?  Does he enable SVG?  We need another basketball guy in the decision-making process not hired by SVG.  What the hell is Arn Tellum doing for our BBall side of things? Where is Isiah, Chauncey, Laimbeer? great basketball minds who could consult, like other teams have used Jerry West, etc.  

BTW, Excellent Article: The Athletic...Pistons Analysis  Written by a Ph.D in mathematics.

I hope SVG and his coaches are up to speed on this stuff.
As to the article linked above, interesting tidbits SVG neeeeeeds to address!!  

Points per Shot:

The Pistons have five players among the 99. Tobias Harris was the most efficient, generating 1.14 PPS and ranking No. 47. A ranking of 47th is more impressive than it sounds. He’s above DeMarcus Cousins, Russell Westbrook, DeMar DeRozan, John Wall and others who are typically considered to be exceptional offensive players.

 

Assists n Ball Movement: How did the Pistons rate in ball movement? They were No. 26 in the NBA in secondary assists and No. 19 in seconds per touch.  Bradley and Kennard to the rescue?

If we want to point fingers at an individual, the clear culprit is Reggie Jackson. He has a history of holding the ball. In 2015-16, he led the NBA (among players with at least 150 minutes played) in seconds per touch. That year, he held the ball an average of six seconds each touch. Last season, he reduced his touch time to 5.44 seconds, but that was still the third-highest in the league. He’s holding the ball more per touch than Harden, Westbrook and others who are more regularly creating in isolation.  We all saw this, I hope Stan did?!?!

Transition buckets:  Transition buckets was an outlier of efficiency for the Pistons. In transition, they generated an excellent 1.22 PPS. Unfortunately, they didn’t get nearly as many opportunities as Golden State. They ranked 14th overall with 15.2 transition possessions per game, which was more than 5 less per game than the Warriors.  We can thank Ish for this!

3Pt Shot: The corner three is the most efficient three, and the Pistons showed little interest in taking them. They ranked No. 29 in percent of shots from the corners. They weren’t much better on above-the-break 3-point attempts. There, they ranked No. 23 in the NBA. In addition, the Pistons were No. 28 in FG% above the break, which means their shooters weren’t adept at keeping help defense out of the lane.

The league averaged 36 percent from 3-point land, and no one on the Pistons with at least 80 3-point attempts shot better than 36 percent.

Attack The Rack:  When Tobias Harris drove to the hoop, he got 1.12 PPS. When Andre Drummond posted up, he got 0.81 PPS. In other words, 100 Harris drives would yield 31 more points than 100 Drummond post ups (part of the problem is that Drummond is an atrocious free-throw shooter).

Let’s recap PPS. The Pistons averaged a league worst 1.04 PPS. Anything above 1.04 helps. Anything above 1.10, especially in the half-court, offense is great. Anything below .85, such as a Drummond post-up, should be carried deep into the woods, buried in a deep hole and never spoken about again.

Even though a Harris drive was far more efficient than a Drummond post-up, Detroit used the two about the same. Harris has 361 drives, and Drummond had 335 post-ups.  Stupid Van Gundy

Let's get this Shyte Fixed!!  The question is, is SVG even capable and aware??

BallinD it seems insane to even think that it would be possible for an NBA owner to become involved in offensive strategy telling the head coach his favorite player needs to get X amount of touches in the half court set. But we have all been told previously that Tom Gores takes private calls from Andre. Do they discuss the weather? Does AD complain to the owner when he doesn't get enough post up touches? Did he complain to Tom Gores when the shooting coach tried to teach Andre how to shoot a free throw? I can't imagine any player who shoots the ball as badly as Drummond not following orders from the head coach. Wouldn't any rational person listen to the shooting coach that the team hired specifically for you when you have no idea how to shoot a free throw? Yet somehow or some way SVG backed down like maybe the ball boy would do but never a head coach. Andre had his way and we all saw the result. Why would he do that? He had to receive orders from the owner on that issue. And then Drummond went on a horrible streak at the free throw line after the half way point. Still no sports reporter brought up the question of why in hell didn't Andre use the shooting coach. Maybe that alone should tell us who made the decisions when it came to Andre Drummond's ability to get away with the silliest things that only a small child should even think of. You are an adult who got real lucky and somehow you are blessed with tons of money coming in. All you have to do is play basketball and follow instructions. You are really big and athletic and all you have to do to make the coach happy is run the court hard, set up in the paint on defense and protect the rim and block shots. No sane coach would want Drummond to get post up touches. No sane coach would allow the highest paid player to get away with not "being engaged". No sane coach would allow a player to tell the coach that he won't use a shooting coach when the player is the worst free throw shooter in history and is slated to play a lot of minutes for the team. SVG is not that dumb. He had to be told to let Andre have his way. Did SVG get the new dog to help calm him down next winter when he gets calls after games from the owner. Does it go like this?
( Do not mess with Andre Drummond coach. He is special to me Stan and I own the team. We have a special bond so don't bug him and give him more post ups so he can show off that amazing baseline hook. And I don't give a crap if he misses the free throws. Anybody can miss free throws. His hands are too big so that shooting coach couldn't help him anyway. So just stop it will you? And no more players only meetings got it? My guy hates that stuff. Andre said that he is the team captain and told the players there will be no more players only meetings so you better back him up. Got to fly to LA in the morning. Don't make me call you again.)
Stan gets off the phone thinking that he might get fired before the next game. He can't sleep. He can't think straight. No wonder the team looked so lost. But Andre was still smiling and still dancing before the games started that were all loses. He was having fun. That is what counts the most. So the dog should help SVG this coming season. Now the theme between the owner and The Franchise Player and Captain is that they should both rest as much as possible. Do you think they were passing a bong back and forth in an Indian sweat house while SVG was on his phone with both the owner and Andre getting orders as to which players should be used in the summer league finals? Is that why Detroit lost that close game? What would Roger Federer say about this idea that professional athletes should rest during the off season if they can only get 5% of their first serves in play?


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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:38 pm

Murph wrote:To me the long term key to Avery Bradley in Detroit is whether or not he can transition to a PG or even a combo guard, like he was when he came into the league.  Everyone is calling for an upgrade at the PG position.  It's just possible Bradley could provide this.  

If I were SVG, I'd give Bradley a lot of reserve PG minutes, and see what he can do.  And if the Pistons are not satisfied that Bradley can make the transition, they can always let him walk at the end of the year, start Kennard the following year, and try to find another starting PG, if Jackson doesn't fully recover.


My hope for Boban is that he can play significant minutes in close games in the 4th quarter.  As many have already pointed out, hack-a-Dre is killing us in close games down the stretch.  I would have no qualms about Boban finishing close games to neutralize Drummond's poor free throw shooting and hack-a-Dre.

Murph let's hope that Bradley does get point guard minutes this season. If Reggie plays with that look that he is out of gas after three minutes on the court we could see Avery starting at point guard depending on how the other two point guards pan out this season. Bradley was an extremely effective 2 guard last season playing with another ball dominate point guard in Thomas. He has learned how to find the open spots and uses screens well. Hopefully Johnson does win the starting small forward spot because it will be refreshing to see him set hard screens for guys like Bradley and Harris if SVG uses more of a motion offense. Last season the team created a new offense called the no motion offense when 4 players stand in place so the point guards can show off their ability to make something happen. How do I do that coach? Don't ask me just do it. That was the strategy last season. Or should I say there was no strategy in the half court set. Some of us call that mindless AAU style basketball but that should be reserved for high school players. SVG gets the dunce cap award for his inability to make adjustments when everyone including the cheer leaders had difficulty watching Piston games.

Bradley doesn't have to become the Piston's starting point guard but if he does that would be really cool. Avery Bradley is the first real close to top tier NBA player that Detroit has had in a long time. He has all the right stuff to make you think you are watching one of the old Bad Boys. He was one of the top performers in the playoffs last season. When Thomas went down with his injury, Bradley became the leader and clutch player. Boston fans are very sad now because he was perhaps their favorite player. He was the guy who made key steals and stops in crunch time all season long for Boston. Detroit management needs to sign this player above any player we have had in years. He changes the team chemistry and style. Just stay injury free Avery.

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Observations

Post  Murph on Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:01 am

To me the long term key to Avery Bradley in Detroit is whether or not he can transition to a PG or even a combo guard, like he was when he came into the league. Everyone is calling for an upgrade at the PG position. It's just possible Bradley could provide this.

If I were SVG, I'd give Bradley a lot of reserve PG minutes, and see what he can do. And if the Pistons are not satisfied that Bradley can make the transition, they can always let him walk at the end of the year, start Kennard the following year, and try to find another starting PG, if Jackson doesn't fully recover.


My hope for Boban is that he can play significant minutes in close games in the 4th quarter. As many have already pointed out, hack-a-Dre is killing us in close games down the stretch. I would have no qualms about Boban finishing close games to neutralize Drummond's poor free throw shooting and hack-a-Dre.
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And Then Some

Post  BallinD on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:27 pm

Cool, what can I say, you continue to hit it out of the park again with this last post.  Is it Tom Gores who makes Andre a sacred cow who cannot be coached, directed or trained?  Does he enable SVG?  We need another basketball guy in the decision-making process not hired by SVG.  What the hell is Arn Tellum doing for our BBall side of things? Where is Isiah, Chauncey, Laimbeer? great basketball minds who could consult, like other teams have used Jerry West, etc.  

BTW, Excellent Article: The Athletic...Pistons Analysis  Written by a Ph.D in mathematics.

I hope SVG and his coaches are up to speed on this stuff.
As to the article linked above, interesting tidbits SVG neeeeeeds to address!!  

Points per Shot:

The Pistons have five players among the 99. Tobias Harris was the most efficient, generating 1.14 PPS and ranking No. 47. A ranking of 47th is more impressive than it sounds. He’s above DeMarcus Cousins, Russell Westbrook, DeMar DeRozan, John Wall and others who are typically considered to be exceptional offensive players.

 

Assists n Ball Movement: How did the Pistons rate in ball movement? They were No. 26 in the NBA in secondary assists and No. 19 in seconds per touch.  Bradley and Kennard to the rescue?

If we want to point fingers at an individual, the clear culprit is Reggie Jackson. He has a history of holding the ball. In 2015-16, he led the NBA (among players with at least 150 minutes played) in seconds per touch. That year, he held the ball an average of six seconds each touch. Last season, he reduced his touch time to 5.44 seconds, but that was still the third-highest in the league. He’s holding the ball more per touch than Harden, Westbrook and others who are more regularly creating in isolation.  We all saw this, I hope Stan did?!?!

Transition buckets:  Transition buckets was an outlier of efficiency for the Pistons. In transition, they generated an excellent 1.22 PPS. Unfortunately, they didn’t get nearly as many opportunities as Golden State. They ranked 14th overall with 15.2 transition possessions per game, which was more than 5 less per game than the Warriors.  We can thank Ish for this!

3Pt Shot: The corner three is the most efficient three, and the Pistons showed little interest in taking them. They ranked No. 29 in percent of shots from the corners. They weren’t much better on above-the-break 3-point attempts. There, they ranked No. 23 in the NBA. In addition, the Pistons were No. 28 in FG% above the break, which means their shooters weren’t adept at keeping help defense out of the lane.

The league averaged 36 percent from 3-point land, and no one on the Pistons with at least 80 3-point attempts shot better than 36 percent.

Attack The Rack:  When Tobias Harris drove to the hoop, he got 1.12 PPS. When Andre Drummond posted up, he got 0.81 PPS. In other words, 100 Harris drives would yield 31 more points than 100 Drummond post ups (part of the problem is that Drummond is an atrocious free-throw shooter).

Let’s recap PPS. The Pistons averaged a league worst 1.04 PPS. Anything above 1.04 helps. Anything above 1.10, especially in the half-court, offense is great. Anything below .85, such as a Drummond post-up, should be carried deep into the woods, buried in a deep hole and never spoken about again.

Even though a Harris drive was far more efficient than a Drummond post-up, Detroit used the two about the same. Harris has 361 drives, and Drummond had 335 post-ups.  Stupid Van Gundy

Let's get this Shyte Fixed!!  The question is, is SVG even capable and aware??
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