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Oracle & Phil boy

Post  Sparma on Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:57 pm

Thanks for the assurances regarding Monroe. I'm not opposed to a good trade including him, but it's hard to envision such a trade. If he goes, his contract would need to be bundled with, like CV, Stuckey, and JJ, to get anything like equal return.

I'm still hoping for some mixing of the talent, be it at the VP/GM level or the coaching level.

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http://detroitsportstalk.forumotion.com/viewtopic.forum?t=140
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Don't eve waist your time thinkin about it. Greg Monroe will not be traded

Post  Phil1980boy on Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:31 pm

Trust me. Greg will not be going anywhere. It's really only 1 guy I think Joe would have moved G.Monroe for and that D.Cousins. That's it.

Don't even think about it. Greg will be A Pistons for A very long time. And if this Team can get it together, Joe will get A contract extension. But that's not guaranteed right now.



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No Change?

Post  Oracle on Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:29 pm

"I'm torn on a trade. Clearly we need one to redress the imbalance, but I'm worried that Dumars, with doom pending for him, will bite on an inferior trade for Monroe for short term advantage. Please tell me he wouldn't do that! I'd rather have the mixture of promising pieces in place for the replacement(s) next year. That includes, especially, the 3 man frontcourt. If we could pull off something involving Jennings and Rondo, or something in return for Stuckey and CV, go for it." - Sparma

Trading Monroe at this stage is something I find hard to wrap my mind around! Playing him at the right position makes a lot more sense, but still, it's a bit early to give up on our big 3, we need to really give it a whole season to work, but Joe may not survive it if it doesn't click soon!

Either way, I would be stunned if Joe traded Monroe!

For starters, it's impossible to get equal trade value until he's signed to his next contract, and more importantly, he's going to be one of those that if traded, will blossom into a beast somewhere else!

Monroe is a keeper unless you can get something better, IMO!

Besides, we have a lot of trade bait to move before we even consider Monroe! Stuckey, CV & JJ represent close to 20M, and that's got to be worth something!
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No Change

Post  Sparma on Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:22 pm

I enjoyed a column by David Mayo at mlive on 1st in which he forecast that a lineup change was unlikely.

I'm torn on a trade. Clearly we need one to redress the imbalance, but I'm worried that Dumars, with doom pending for him, will bite on an inferior trade for Monroe for short term advantage. Please tell me he wouldn't do that! I'd rather have the mixture of promising pieces in place for the replacement(s) next year. That includes, especially, the 3 man frontcourt. If we could pull off something involving Jennings and Rondo, or something in return for Stuckey and CV, go for it.

Mayo:

"1. No change

Probability: 60 percent

Upside: Sticking with the big-three design and not scrapping the plan after 33 games shows patience. There is no way to start the five best players without using the big three. Stuckey off the bench is why the Pistons have a plus-1.5-point scoring margin in second quarters, and his absence from the second unit (and the fourth-quarter finishers) has been a much bigger problem than the starters. Singler is more effective playing mid-20s in minutes, at his natural position, and Caldwell-Pope is the better defender against starting guards.

Downside: Standing by and doing nothing can be the worst thing you can do, and these Pistons are churning off the tracks right now."


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Post Mortem Analysis

Post  Oracle on Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:01 pm

Is a bit premature right now!

Wise, Sparma, Don, & Murph have recently all pointed out problems, and I have as well, but this roster, while flawed, still has a lot of potential... especially if Joe can make a few additional corrections!

We'll know a hell of a lot more by the all star break, but what happened by the trade deadline, which is fast approaching, will be a good barometer!

Since Cheeks is stand pat with his current lineup, that makes me believe that Joe is working on something, and will need solid evidence to change his mind.

But I've been wrong before, and seen Joe sit there and let the deadline pass and give some of the silliest reason why he didn't do anything... stay tuned!
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If only

Post  Sparma on Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:53 pm

Good points, Murph. For all the mistakes the team's made, they've had it within their grasp to be in a much better spot.

For me, if only they'd made two obvious moves, the future would be much brighter:

a) amnesty Gordon, rather than giving away the 1st rounder.

b) draft a PG in 2013. For me, that would have been MCW rather than Burke, to avoid a miniature backcourt along with Knight. I'd take Burke over KCP though.

Of course, trading a guy you'd drafted at #25, a guy who'd already shown defensive toughness, shooting ability, basketball IQ, and a willingness to work hard and to learn, didn't make sense either, but just doing the two obvious things, things that Joe Schmo could have told Joe D would have been preferable to what he did do, would have made a ton of difference.
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Joe

Post  Murph on Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:44 am

The funny thing about Joe is that he'll sit through all the pain of trying to develop young players like Afflalo, Amir, Knight and Middleton.  And then just when they're ready to be productive, he ships them out of town, and loads up on big contract players, who aren't as good as the players he gave away.  Case in point, he dumped Afflalo and Amir, and signed Ben Gordon and CV.


And then he did the same thing with Knight and Middleton.  He sat though years of development and patient re-building through the draft.  And then just when his roster was about to mature, he dumped Knight and Middleton for Jennings, and passed on Burke and MCW.

I mean, who'd you rather have right now, Jennings and KCP, or Burke, Knight and Middleton?  


Joe needs to stop dumping his talented young players for other teams' over-paid problems.
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Cheeks to KCP: Be more like Singler

Post  Oracle on Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:15 am

"“I’m not looking at his scoring, I’m looking at how he plays defensively, running the floor,” Cheeks said. “I told him to take a cue from Kyle’s (Singler) book, we don’t run anything for Kyle either. He always ends up with a 3 here, 3 there. He gets open, runs to the rim. Those guys have to do things like that.”" - Pistons' Andre Drummond challenged by second-year workload

My only question is why doesn't Cheeks DEMAND that they do that?

Where are the plays where cutters go to the rim probing the defense to see what's available, giving Jennings better targets for dimes!

Hell, if these guys all cut to the rim like Singler, Jennings could average 14-18 assists a game!
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I Know Knucklehead Sounds Harsh

Post  Oracle on Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:05 am

Yes it is, and worse it's so far off it's hard to believe that anybody could believe it!

In spite of all of the things any of us can cite, under Joe's tenure, the Pistons have been better than 90% of the NBA!

You can't just slip on a banana peel and get results like that, you have to be doing something right, AND be a bit lucky!

Fair is fair, Joe gets 100% of the credit for anything good, especially if you're going to keep giving him 100% of the blame when stuff doesn't go right!

It's fair to note mistakes, but stuff happens, and tenures have lifetimes!

Joe may be beyond his expiration date, but that doesn't mean that a review of his tenure is all bad!
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I Know Knucklehead Sounds Harsh

Post  WTF on Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:20 am

Sparma the Championship and ECF runs were quite impressive but was another one of those things that lacked proper follow through. I have always been of the mind largely in part because Joe himself admitted that he didn't realize he had the makings of a Championship team. He honestly didn't the team could compete initially or win it all IMO he could neither recognized that that team was a potential dynasty with the proper follow up. He was so lock in falsely by the success of 2004 he didn't think he needed to change anything. That IMO is kind of Knuckleheaded I think.

I think picking up Chauncey and Rip was huge by Joe, Prince turned out to be decent but highly an underachiever that Joe overly valued they made his pass up on Anthony and select Darko, Big Ben was always a toss in on a trade that just happen to be something special. Corliss was a beautiful pick up the prior season. But at the end of the day it was good fortune than it was any recognition of talent and putting it together. I kind of see some of the same things happening now with this bunch we have now.

I'm reallypressed for finding another word than Knucklehead to describe some of the stuff he does, a lot of the stuff that goes wrong seems self inflicted.
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Moose

Post  Sparma on Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:49 pm

Never had a plan? Golly, that's harsh for a guy who masterminded a 'ship without a top 10 NBA player, something almost without equal. He made a lot of good moves along the way. Was it six final fours in a row? Pretty darn impressive, also when the owner, otherwise generous, was unwilling to go over the cap to provide the final tweak needed in the later years of the run. But sure, he had his share of luck too.

The second half of his run's been pretty miserable. Even when I back away from attempting to play the role of his advocate, I still don't see it adding up to him being a knucklehead. It's been plenty frustrating though.

At the end of the new bio Lord of the Rings, the author speculates that Phil Jackson's not done yet and envisions a front office return, mentioning the Lakers, Knicks, and Pistons in that speculative scenario. I could see Jackson wanting a go next year.
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If Joe's brains was receiving any oxygen ...

Post  Sebastian on Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:26 pm

He would get Daryl Morey (Houston) and Danny Ainge (Celtics) on the phone and offer the following:

Move: Josh Smith to the Rockets, B. Jennings and Singler to the Celtics. The trade would look like this -

http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/6397106.

Piston get:
Rondo (PG)
Jeff Green (SF)  

Rockets get:
Josh Smith (PF)

Celtics get:
Omer Asik (C)
B. Jennings (PG)
Kyle Singler (Glue guy)
Terrance Jones (SF/PF)

This trade works for all teams involved.

The Pistons get a PG, who can manage a ball club, and a guy who can guard the position. Also, Jeff Green becomes the SF that the Pistons was seeking in Josh. Jeff Green is a player who can score from several positions on the floor. He is a much, better ball handler and overall play maker than Smith, a eight months (a full NBA season) younger than Smith, not to mention a lot cheaper, too. But, perhaps Green's greatest asset is that he is very good friends with Moose. Maybe, just maybe, Green can help Moose to become a much sharper and more focused player.

The Rockets get a very active power forward to insert into their starting line-up. Josh would help make the Rockets a much better defensive team and Josh would flourish on this roster, as he would be considered a third option, if not a fourth option, which would make him a much better player. The Rockets need a guy, like Josh on their roster. Oh, and aren't Josh and Dwight childhood friends.

The Celtics do this deal, because they are not really sure what to expect from the emotional and finicky, Rondo. Nor are they sure of what condition he may be in. In exchange, the Celtics are provided with a young, dynamic PG named Brandon Jennings. Additionally, the Celtics get a rim protector in Omer Asik, who would help to make Jennings' defensive shortcomings to not appear so bad. Also, the Celtics get a young and cheap option at SF/PF in Terrance Young. T. Young has played well, thus far this season. Lastly, the deal will provide Brad Stevens the ultimate glue guy in the person of Kyle Singler.

This trade works for all teams involve. WE then roll with:

PG - Rondo/Chauncey/Will B.
SG - KCP/Stuckey*
SF - Jeff Green/T. Mitch
PF - Moose/Jerebko/Charlie V.
C- Dre/Harrelson

*Stuckey would have to get back to playing his ass off, again, and he can't get hurt anymore this season causing him to miss halves and entire games.

T. Mitch would have to start getting real NBA minutes.


Last edited by Sebastian on Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sparma

Post  WTF on Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:09 pm

Sure he was a knucklehead because he never had a back up plan largely because he locks in on players.  It's not ready set go on July 1st and you began to think.   Whatever issues there might have been with Karen should have been foreseen prior and discussed so he knew where he stood.  

It seems he never thinks worse case scenario and then have a back up plan in place because he so locked in on doing one thing.  He never has his Ducks In A Row he should have known if he had approval or not before making any decision on Gordon.  

What really bothered me is that upon justifying trading CB it was to replace an aging front court and the objective was to acquire to front court players.  Everybody and their mothers knew NY would was not going to match any offers made to David  Lee and we would likely end up with David and Charlie. This didn't happen because Joe was banking his next move on a deal the owner hasn't approved so he signed Gordon. Yeah that's being an knucklehead because there should be a backup plan and a backup plan to the backup plan.

Even in the best of times you think worse case scenario, test the waters and toss stones in it. What we also knew is Utah was also trying make a similar deal for Prince so this means the scenario of Rip was was tossed out the before Mr. D passed away. Joe doesn't just fail to follow through he's not thinking it through to be able to follow things through. He can't keep saying he had a plan and it didn't work and the media needs to stop feeding it as an excuse.
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Moose

Post  Sparma on Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:39 pm

Even Chris McCosky, among others, passed along the Rip to Utah story (after the fact) -- he ran cover for Flip, but he also had great inside access. The story was that KD refused to take on additional financial commitment (was it that Boozer had an extra year on his contract at the time?); she wasn't micromanaging trades but stating a limitation that Joe needed to honor.

Joe's not a knucklehead. Early on, he was a man with a plan who got lucky. For instance, the Billups signing was just good sense -- he'd made his breakthrough in his final season in Minny. The Rip for Stack trade just made good sense, it turned out. Smart move by Joe. The Rasheed trade?: great move. The luck: being in the right place to make the Rasheed trade (once that a three way with some rumored favortism from Boston?). Also lucky: Rip clicking with Billups to the extent he did. Couldn't have been foreseen. Prince: great pick at 23. Prince integrating so smoothly, bonding so tightly with Billups and Rip? There's an element of fortune there.

In later years, his plans have been more swervy, but he's also had bad luck. AI being a used up sourpuss just a season after averaging 26? Ben Gordon becoming an ineffective sourpuss after being proven as a lethal scorer and shooter off the bench? And I think he got caught up in various entanglements with owners.
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More on Joe

Post  Sparma on Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:24 pm

Agree on Datome. I actually like Dumars' ideal of multi-roled players such as he was himself, but unfortunately that's translated again and again to failed to find a niche for players (like Datome, or Stuckey, or Knight, or Smith...).

Another complaint on Joe: he's undercut coaches repeatedly (and reportedly). Something I liked about the Cheeks hiring is that Joe finally seemed to be in sync with his his coach. I agree that Cheeks needs some good support though. I don't think someone like Lloyd Carr or even Bo (?) was on top of all of the details, but a good supervisor can do real well as a coach, if he gets the support needed. Langlois says the analytics department has really developed [since Gores?] -- I'd like to see Cheeks incorporate more of that, even if he's not on top of the details. For instance, someone at PP wrote that the numbers show that AD and Smith easily do best together, of the various big man combos. Conclusion: Monroe off the bench, even in a contract year. Also, reading the latest book on Phil Jackson: he insisted D is what could be taught. Sounds right (except that you can't teach size (Jennings) or foot speed (Monroe)). You can do a ton to teach team D, if the willingness is there, and if the coach makes the right moves. Putting a promising center with all kinds of post moves back at C where he can handle his defensive assignments better would be a move in the right direction.
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Stop Making Excuses For Joe Ubder Planning.

Post  WTF on Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:22 pm

Face it Joe's a Knucklehead and tends to out think himself more times than not and I can't see giving him credit for half accomplishing his plans. He's never proactive and equipped with any kind of Plan B or Plan C scenario in case sh!t doesn't fully come to fruition.

Gordon should have never been signed until Rip was gone, sadly his back up plan is to hold on to players and then get stuck with then like with signing Bynum under the assumption you would have Stuckey moved. He just does things ass backwards and never have a back up plan.

Why would Karen block the trade? She wanted nothing to do with the team but at the same time that involved to block the trade? Right! IMO it's always Joe being a dollar short and minute too late Utah was trying to make that same deal prior to the CB trade in fact hey wanted both Rip and Prince. This was before Mr. D passing




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Don & Oracle

Post  Sparma on Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:48 pm

I think from the outset there was a problem with the Gordon signing, but I'd put it a little differently than you did. If memory serves, he'd just played at his absolute best against Boston, torching them repeatedly. My reservation at the time was acquiring a player who's rated at his very highest at the moment. We knew he wouldn't be a good defender. We also know that he was one of the best shooters in the league, a lethal scorer in bursts. We overpaid for him, but not grossly, based on his established level of performance. Not sure what happened then, but between friction with Rip (?; always denied), excessive expectations based on his pay, and his surliness, it all went south.

I remember CV combatting the Pistons with Milwaukee, fighting his way inside, and lighting it up from the outside. At 7 mil, that seemed like a decent signing at the time.

Not so sure about Smith -- you watch all the games, whereas I only watch a few, but so far he seems to be living up to his reputation as a supertalented guy who doesn't contribute much to his team succeeding.

Once we arrived at the precise circumstances of the Jennings trade, it made sense to me (my main reservation concerned Middleton). Still, I'd much rather be rolling with a MCW, Stuckey, and Knight as the principals, maybe with Billups already on board.

I agree totally: several of these moves make sense if only the necessar smart follow up is present. For instance, I could see Smith being a steal, but the context needs to be right, which it routinely hasn't been in the D. The frustrating failure to develop talent, that you highlighted recent, is ongoing evidence.
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Sparma & Don: Joe's Moves

Post  Oracle on Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:30 pm

The Gordon & CV moves are interesting, and only the Gordon acquisition was, IMO a bad move, and here's why.

Gordon:  Anybody that watched Gordon should have known that he was never an everyday player! When he was hot, he was unstoppable, but even then he couldn't stop anybody on the defensive end! I thought this was clearly a bad move from day 1, and I just can't find good justification for it!

CV: This was a really smart move by Joe! Picking up a young big with CV's skills would have been perfect, except for one thing! CV needed mentoring and development, two things Joe didn't provide, and development is something he's never even attempted to provide, but got lucky when Larry Brown landed and did it for him, as Chauncey blossomed under LB's strong hand, and RIP became a monster, while Ben & Sheed blocked out the sun! Even Prince became a man under LB!  So while this was a good move, the follow up was so bad that we got the player we have today!

Contrary to how I feel today, that Jennings is working out a lot better than Josh, my call on this trade is the exact opposite of how I feel!

The Josh Smith move was brilliant, but just like the CV move, Josh needs mentoring, he can't be the mentor of anybody else, and even though he's a veteran, he has so many bad habits, he also needs a bit of development! As Blaha would say, "Don't Look Now" but none of that is anywhere in sight from Joe or Cheeks. So the move can be destroyed again through lack of follow up unless they get lucky and the player matures on their own... not likely!

The Jennings trade wasn't dumb, it just wasn't smart! Here was a player nobody wanted, and we shouldn't have been in a position to want him either, and that's why the move was bad.

Arnie told Joe and everybody that could read or hear that Knight had elite speed, and Arnie has seen a guard or two! There were legitimate concerns about Knight's turnovers and ability to run the team, but there was rarely concerns about him being a hard worker and an eventual good NBA product! The debates about Knight generally revolved around how best to use him!

The best thing Joe could have done is to bring in another PG and force Knight to compete to keep the gig(draft Burke or MCW), not trade the thing you know you'll need... a fast defensive guard with shooting out to 3 point land and speed to burn!

But if you do make that move, you don't do it for a slower guard, who is also smaller than most NBA guards, and has a shaky instinct and team running capability! As I said, IMO, Jennings is progressing about as well as I would have expected, and actually better!

I think Jennings may work out if the rest of the team matures quick enough, but he needs help in the form of a guy just like the one Joe just threw away(Knight)!

The Datome pickup was a great one, but again, the follow up is lacking! They simply aren't using him correctly, but then again, they aren't using almost anyone correctly, so that brings about the biggest mistake Joe has made, and oddly, it's a recurring one!

He once again failed to hire the right coach for the job!

However, it's not too late on that one, but for it to work, Joe either needs to get Cheeks some help on the sidelines, or he needs to hire a coaching consultant to work with Cheeks... hell, coaches need to be developed too!!!
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Re: FORUM

Post  Sparma on Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:19 pm

Lot's of good questions, Cool. I was attempting to present the kind of case Dumars' defense lawyer might make for him, part of which I agree with part of which I don't.

There's a lot of speculation, as there will be for the foreseeable future, until Dumars and others come out with their tell alls.

At the same time, at least parts seem to be reasonable conjuncture. For instance, the rumor that Karen Davidson blocked the Rip trade that was otherwise a done deal was so persistent, that it seemed like a case of there being fire where there was smoke.

We know that Gores was willing to bite the bullet on Rip's contract. Why? My story provides a reasonable explanation. If you have a better one, please let me know.

We also know that Joe was willing to give up a 1st rounder (which I regard as crazy), when amnestying Gordon was a readily available alternative. Again, I've inferred what seems to be the likeliest explanation, in the manner of a detective who has only fragments of information available. Again, if there's a better explanation, I'd like to hear it.

In the case of the (crazy, in my mind) passing up of a PG, my recollection is that Gores made a comment shortly after, addressing the issue of fit.

The Afflalo trade was a blunder, as I thought even at the time, I'll agree with you. The favoring of Stuckey was a blunder, I'll agree with you.

The acquisitions of Smith and Jennings were mistakes, I think, that can be seen as reasonable gambles (only) in the context of having made that outrageous Gordon trade.

You've brought up the Budinger pick numerous times. I'm not sure how much to fault Dumars there. What's the procedure on trades like that? Wasn't there outrage when GS picked Steph Curry having already agreed to trade him? Not sure it's worth breaking gentlemen's agreements over second rounders.

In short, in my own view, here's where I think Detroit/ Dumars made the biggest mistakes, things that could be clearly seen at the time as wrong: 1) trading Afflalo, 2) not amnestying Gordon (contrary to Joe's preference, I'd thinking), and 3) not drafting a PG in 2012. My choice would have been MCW, allowing Knight to shift comfortably into the 6th man role.

Other things worked out really badly: Billups having another outstanding season in him, along with some good ones, the AI disaster, the Rip fiasco, the Gordon/CV steep decline. I'm inclined to cut Joe some slack on those, however disastrously they turned out for the team.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 pm

Sparma wrote:The Billups trade laid the foundation for the necessary rebuild, freeing up 20 mil.

While the Gordon and CV signings turned out to be mistakes, it was improbable that they'd fade the way they did.  Both were reasonably good signings at the time.

The domino that needed to fall for the Gordon trade to make sense -- the trade of Rip to Utah for Boozer -- was blocked by the caretaker owner.

Because Boozer wasn't acquired, some length needed to be gained.  In order to free money to sign that player (who turned out to be Wilcox), a promising young guard was traded away (Afflalo).

As a gesture of good will the new owner was willing to buy out the Rip contract, perhaps because he knew that Joe had set up an earlier trade that fell through.  Having done so, however, he was not willing to amnesty Gordon (or CV).

Determined to show he could achieve quick results, with his job on the line, Joe made the Gordon trade, freeing up financial space a year early.

With the owner pressing for quick results, he didn't want to entrust the team to a rookie PG, instead drafting a big, defensive, guard proclaimed as one of the best shooters in the draft.

Joe managed, against the odds, to sign the best available free agent, Josh Smith.

He was able to trade for an experienced PG, primarily in return for a PG quite unlikely to match the assist totals of the new PG.

Having fired a rigid coach who wasn't respected in part because of his lacking of playing ability, he hired a former superb NBA player, a player's coach, a guy from his own era, someone with a relaxed demeanor.

In order to address the spacing issues, he managed to sign an outstanding shooter from Europe.

He signed another outstanding shooter, a former star, who would help stabilize the PG position while serving as a kind of untitled coach.

This post is very insightful Sparma. It seems that you are in touch with the situations facing Dumars at the time decisions were made. Do you have any information as to why Dumars was willing to part with Affalo instead of maybe Stuckey or another player to get a big which turned out to be the inept Wilcox? And both Charlie V and Ben Gordon were not wanted on their former teams before Dumars signed them. The same is true with Brandon Jennings. All three players have two things in common. They like to get their share of the shots and cannot hold their own on defense. What changed Dumars thinking when it comes to looking for actual two way players and not willing his team with weak defenders? No player on this current team is an outstanding defender. Affalo was the one young player who had established himself as a prime time defender before he was given to Denver. Joe freed up money while giving up a guy who Kobe Bryant once stated was his toughest matchup when Kobe was in his prime. Many fans had followed Affalo's career and I thought Dumars had made the biggest steal in the draft that year when he drafted both Stuckey and Affalo. Stuckey's previous history was not anywhere near Affalo's before they entered the draft. One could easily predict that Affalo would be where he is today if anyone in the Piston organization had done their homework. It takes hard work by the team's scouting staff and the GM to make sure you are placing the team on the correct path to success. The drafting of Rodney White and Darko were both examples of lack of preparation and proper work ethic. With just a tiny bit of work, a GM would know that White was a high risk gamble based on his previous history as a person and player in high school and college. The Darko thing defies logic. This guy had never been a key player on any team in his entire history before the draft. He had a horrible work ethic and was a chain smoker who really never accomplished much of anything in his life but learn how to party. This was another example of Dumars ability to do high risk gambling. The sure thing that draft year included many players who ended up being solid NBA players. I would also like to know what Dumars thinking was when he traded Billups for Iverson. According to his statements, he really believe in Iverson and thought the Pistons might get to the finals again. I never heard him say that the team was rebuilding until after the Iverson trade when Rasheed identified the truth "It is over". Dumars appears to have lacked the knowledge of how the presence of Billups on that team was the key to the reason why they were successful in the first place. Dumars also failed to identify that one of the key players the team had the year they won the championship included the defensive minded guard that came to the Pistons with Rasheed. Dumars didn't sign him or replace him with a player who could do the same things for the team. Instead, he signed a friend and former teammate, Lindsey Hunter. Dumars tried to instill confidence in Hunter's signing by suggesting that Hunter was a prime time defender. However, this guy was never capable of being healthy enough to provide what a quality combo guard needs to bring to a championship level team. A management team like the Spurs would not have had such poor insight in my mind. Then there is the other thing that I can't let go of relating to the drafting of Austin Daye. I watch a lot of college basketball and knew that Daye was a huge mistake. But when Dumars drafted Budinger, I though he might be really smart and could be planning to include Daye in a trade. But instead, Joe gave away Budinger much like he did with Affalo. If Dumars staff had known anything about what they were doing at the time, they would have known that Budinger kicked Daye's ass in the matchups they had had. Daye's coach had real problems trying to hide Daye when he was on the floor playing defense. He was an inept college defender. Wouldn't a GM have someone contact a player's head coach if they were going to select that player in the first round? Lack of work ethic relating to research alone should make any owner lack confidence in Joe Dumars abilities to run a team. I hate being a back seat driver after the fact. But some of the things that has happened since Dumars became the GM just can't be explained in a positive way. If you know any of the inside story relating to some of my concerns, please write back on this subject. I loved the way Dumars played for the Pistons. Now I have no trust in his judgment in his current job.

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In defense of Joe, before he goes

Post  Sparma on Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:23 pm

The Billups trade laid the foundation for the necessary rebuild, freeing up 20 mil.

While the Gordon and CV signings turned out to be mistakes, it was improbable that they'd fade the way they did.  Both were reasonably good signings at the time.

The domino that needed to fall for the Gordon trade to make sense -- the trade of Rip to Utah for Boozer -- was blocked by the caretaker owner.

Because Boozer wasn't acquired, some length needed to be gained.  In order to free money to sign that player (who turned out to be Wilcox), a promising young guard was traded away (Afflalo).

As a gesture of good will the new owner was willing to buy out the Rip contract, perhaps because he knew that Joe had set up an earlier trade that fell through.  Having done so, however, he was not willing to amnesty Gordon (or CV).

Determined to show he could achieve quick results, with his job on the line, Joe made the Gordon trade, freeing up financial space a year early.

With the owner pressing for quick results, he didn't want to entrust the team to a rookie PG, instead drafting a big, defensive, guard proclaimed as one of the best shooters in the draft.

Joe managed, against the odds, to sign the best available free agent, Josh Smith.

He was able to trade for an experienced PG, primarily in return for a PG quite unlikely to match the assist totals of the new PG.

Having fired a rigid coach who wasn't respected in part because of his lacking of playing ability, he hired a former superb NBA player, a player's coach, a guy from his own era, someone with a relaxed demeanor.

In order to address the spacing issues, he managed to sign an outstanding shooter from Europe.

He signed another outstanding shooter, a former star, who would help stabilize the PG position while serving as a kind of untitled coach.
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RE

Post  Phil1980boy on Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:52 am

"Didn't you say that same special something speech about Stuckey who you despise now," Yes. I said Stuckey had A chance to be good. Stuckey don't give A F.U.C.K! So that's that. Is that my fault? Should I feel bad about that? It's my fault Stuckey don't work hard on his game until his contract up? Look at Stuckey this season. He playing really good. He got skills. He just don't give A F.U.C.K. about basketball if you really look at his effort over the years.



"are you the same one that said Affalo wasn't special when Joe traded him." NO. I say the exact same about Afflalo I say about BK7. Denver, your getting A hard working guy who plays hard every night. I wish him luck. You will like this kid. Afflalo does work hard. He not more talented then Stuckey. He just work 1000 Times harder then Stuckey and that made him 100 time the player Stuckey could ever wish to be.

And this AMERICA. I can CHANGE MY MIND WHEN I WANT TO! That's LIFE! God BLESS AMERICA!
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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:19 am

MOOSEFAN wrote:
merc wrote:Let's make lottsa trades... or we could keep the pieces that could still work (ie. Afflalo, Middleton, Amir etc.)... just sayin' watch whatcha ask for.

Come on now merc, I don't think anyone has suggested gutting the team personally I've been behind only trading away players that aren't working and holds some value.  Moose is the piece that doesn't mesh with the rest of this squad and holds a position he not capable handling. Charlie V. 8.5 million of salary going down the drain as he racks up CD-DNPs left and right, Bynum something Joe had no business doing in the first place, Jebreko who's playing time is as relevant as that of Charlies.  

Why would anyone be against trading these players and what is this crazy obsession with Moose that he's become so damn untouchable when this team is on the brinks of over paying him for his declining production.  Keep him because it could work

Man that's they same craziness that got us jacked up to begin with, how use the words would or should oppose to could when we reference players.  That word could doesn't sound that definite as would and should does and this team needs to stop forcing pieces that don't fit.   Moose is a center not a PF and it's not going to work, but some think he should be some back up for this team when we already have a back up Harrellson that does all the things Moose is unable to do.  

Somewhere a team is in need of a starting center and we are in need of a starting PF or SF it only makes sense.  But I don't think anyone has suggested gutting the roster and Moose is the be it all to it all with that starting unit or the team as a whole. Why is everyone so afraid that if his ass gets traded for a PF that actually fits this team is going to fall apart.  
I must be getting soft... but there's not much to argue with here... so how many woodchucks could Joe get for our good chucks?  jocolor 
Seriously, I understand that the current mix has issues on the front line (even though I'm confident Monroe will have decent range within the next couple of years).... What you need to consider is that Monroe will be a steady 18/8 guy at the Center position (allstar numbers)... the PF experience is going to help him to pull opposing centers out to 15+ feet.... so yes maybe we do see him as the movable piece (however a strong case could be made for Smith)... however I'll be damned if we should just dump G.M. for a mediocre SF... we should accept nothing less than a young 3 tool guy in return (3&D plus handles)... now is not the time to settle... the anti goes up in February.
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Again You're Wrong On This PBoy

Post  WTF on Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:27 am

Phil1980boy wrote:Greg has too much potential to be traded at this time. Here are A few examples. Kevin Love, Z.Randolph, Marcus Gasol, L.Aldridge, A Old Tim Duncan, Al Jefferson, C.Boozer,  R.Hibbert, ETC. This is a list of player that have kicked on his ass  facepalm 

Big boys with low post skills don't grow on Trees. Moving Moose because he don't fit on A bad team is short sited and very silly thinking.

If all these guys can get better so can Greg Monroe. When Monroe is in his prime he could be A MVP candidate. Moving his ass know we could have 2 titles by the time he's ass is a MVP

Add A 23-24 year old Andre Drummonds next to Monroe to protect each other. I would not break up that potential NBA Finals 1,2 big man punch. SORRY!!

I don't care if we keep losing games. I know when I see something special. And Moose and Drummonds are special together. We just need them to grow up FAST!!!
Too Funny

The numbers have already proven that Drummond and Moose are the least effective on both ends of the floors, that this team excels when Josh and Drummond are on the floor together.  Even eye test shows that Harrellson could potential be a better fit paired with either Josh or Drummond.  

Didn't you say that same special something speech about Stuckey who you despise now, are you the same one that said Affalo wasn't special when Joe traded him.  Yet you rather disregard fixing what's wrong with the team, how about we trade Moose for a SF or PF that has that something special and actually fits oppose to waiting on some sh!t that ain't going to happen.
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Phillipboy

Post  WTF on Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:17 am

Phil1980boy wrote:Good Points Moose and you might be right. But this is A new team? These guys have not played together for 6 months yet. Keep that in mind. Now are they playing like Pussy Boys? Yes!

But they still new and learning each other. Would you fire your wife after 3 months of marriage? If you Kim Kardashian, Yes. But Let's give these guys A little more time. Till the All Star break.

It took Big Ben, Chauncey, Rip, Corliss, Hunter less than a season to show promise in fact they did it to the tune of a 50 win season under Rick in 2002. (btw I apologize for not listing him along with Chuck, Doug, Larry, and Flip). This team as I said isn't as young as everyone pretends it is and very much as experience as the 2002 roster and definitely more talented. There is no excuse for this team being under .500 not at this stage of the season period! Seriously you look at that 2002 squad and compare it to this one and ask which team was more talented. 2002 was the least talented and had more questions about it yet the gelled almost immediately.


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Re: FORUM

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