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Forest or Trees

Post  lemonpen on Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:57 pm

The two worst defenders in the starting unit are still here.
The PG who holds the ball longer than almost anyone in the league (and gets less out of it) is still starting.
The C who a local rag all but outright called SOFT ("no innate toughness") is still starting.
The coach who steadfastly preached DEFENSE then quickly moved away from a rotation that produced a top 10 D, and stayed away, is still leading the band.

Guys,  SVG encouraged his gang that couldn't shoot straight to keep firing away despite mounting data to the contrary.

Look at the resumes of our new faces.  Galloway, Bradley, Tolly, Kennard.  News flash, this shyt ain't changing.  We will continue to run a P&R with improved perimeter shooters.  Reggie will continue trying to be Westbrook 2.0 while everyone waists their careers watching.  

I'm becoming more convinced that Stan is a one trick pony, needing a roster with a very specific and narrow skillset to have any sniff of success.  Can't wait to see if I'm proved otherwise.
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Forum

Post  BallinD on Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:20 pm

@Murph, DX, Cool: Guys, I can hope there are scenarios where Bradley is out there with Kennard and maybe Galloway or Bullock and we see those two running the Offense with secondary ball handlers, secondary pick and rolls and the ball swinging from side-to-side, players cutting off screens.

If Stan likes what he sees, then maybe he will wake up from the dream/nightmare of the Dre/Weggie show. IMHO, it will take a small miracle to get SVG to go as far as to let Bradley run point, but I could be wrong.
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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:56 pm

cool breeze wrote:
Murph wrote:To me the long term key to Avery Bradley in Detroit is whether or not he can transition to a PG or even a combo guard, like he was when he came into the league.  Everyone is calling for an upgrade at the PG position.  It's just possible Bradley could provide this.  

If I were SVG, I'd give Bradley a lot of reserve PG minutes, and see what he can do.  And if the Pistons are not satisfied that Bradley can make the transition, they can always let him walk at the end of the year, start Kennard the following year, and try to find another starting PG, if Jackson doesn't fully recover.


My hope for Boban is that he can play significant minutes in close games in the 4th quarter.  As many have already pointed out, hack-a-Dre is killing us in close games down the stretch.  I would have no qualms about Boban finishing close games to neutralize Drummond's poor free throw shooting and hack-a-Dre.

Murph let's hope that Bradley does get point guard minutes this season. If Reggie plays with that look that he is out of gas after three minutes on the court we could see Avery starting at point guard depending on how the other two point guards pan out this season. Bradley was an extremely effective 2 guard last season playing with another ball dominate point guard in Thomas. He has learned how to find the open spots and uses screens well. Hopefully Johnson does win the starting small forward spot because it will be refreshing to see him set hard screens for guys like Bradley and Harris if SVG uses more of a motion offense. Last season the team created a new offense called the no motion offense when 4 players stand in place so the point guards can show off their ability to make something happen. How do I do that coach? Don't ask me just do it. That was the strategy last season. Or should I say there was no strategy in the half court set. Some of us call that mindless AAU style basketball but that should be reserved for high school players. SVG gets the dunce cap award for his inability to make adjustments when everyone including the cheer leaders had difficulty watching Piston games.

Bradley doesn't have to become the Piston's starting point guard but if he does that would be really cool. Avery Bradley is the first real close to top tier NBA player that Detroit has had in a long time. He has all the right stuff to make you think you are watching one of the old Bad Boys. He was one of the top performers in the playoffs last season. When Thomas went down with his injury, Bradley became the leader and clutch player. Boston fans are very sad now because he was perhaps their favorite player. He was the guy who made key steals and stops in crunch time all season long for Boston. Detroit management needs to sign this player above any player we have had in years. He changes the team chemistry and style. Just stay injury free Avery.
We have a coach who's not shown the ability to make adjustments, when things are going wrong, or formulate a workable rotation, but should expect Avery Bradley to transition into a PG in one year. SVG has a team that's not shown any chemistry or has any real leadership, but is content to allow Smith and Galloway to rot on the bench while Bradley learns to be a combo guard. We've not had an All-League anything, but before Bradley suits up, we should have him concentrating on something that'd certainly be a distraction to what's made him the valuable commodity he is (to everybody but us). At 6' 2" he started alongside a 5' 9" PG and was quite successful; Thomas and Jackson are two different type ball dominate PG's and fans league wide would agree (at least more than would disagree). If Reggie doesn't fully recover (and begin to play like he's a part of a team) I'd have no problem with Bradley starting alongside Smith or Galloway, but I'm not wasting what could possibly be our only season trying to transform Bradley into something he ain't.

I'm all for Boban playing significant minutes in close games, particularly since Drummond has willfully neglected working on his FT's...this is gospel Murph. It's SVG's job as HC to work out a rotation where Kennard, Johnson, and Ellenson get significant development minutes and along the way (once SVG stops b!tch!ng about back-to-back games) playing Galloway, Tolliver, Bullock, Boban, Smith, and Moreland extensively. This is an easy doable, process...just trust the players you're paying to play.

I'm for resigning Bradley and building on what he brings to the team; toughness, competitiveness,...nasty. I know Stanley Johnson has it and I believe Luke Kennard has a nasty streak in him also. We've got a potentially awesome small ball team, if one takes an open minded look at it; Galloway PG, Bradley SG, Kennard SF, Johnson PF, and Moreland at center. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 pm

BallinD wrote:Cool, what can I say, you continue to hit it out of the park again with this last post.  Is it Tom Gores who makes Andre a sacred cow who cannot be coached, directed or trained?  Does he enable SVG?  We need another basketball guy in the decision-making process not hired by SVG.  What the hell is Arn Tellum doing for our BBall side of things? Where is Isiah, Chauncey, Laimbeer? great basketball minds who could consult, like other teams have used Jerry West, etc.  

BTW, Excellent Article: The Athletic...Pistons Analysis  Written by a Ph.D in mathematics.

I hope SVG and his coaches are up to speed on this stuff.
As to the article linked above, interesting tidbits SVG neeeeeeds to address!!  

Points per Shot:

The Pistons have five players among the 99. Tobias Harris was the most efficient, generating 1.14 PPS and ranking No. 47. A ranking of 47th is more impressive than it sounds. He’s above DeMarcus Cousins, Russell Westbrook, DeMar DeRozan, John Wall and others who are typically considered to be exceptional offensive players.

 

Assists n Ball Movement: How did the Pistons rate in ball movement? They were No. 26 in the NBA in secondary assists and No. 19 in seconds per touch.  Bradley and Kennard to the rescue?

If we want to point fingers at an individual, the clear culprit is Reggie Jackson. He has a history of holding the ball. In 2015-16, he led the NBA (among players with at least 150 minutes played) in seconds per touch. That year, he held the ball an average of six seconds each touch. Last season, he reduced his touch time to 5.44 seconds, but that was still the third-highest in the league. He’s holding the ball more per touch than Harden, Westbrook and others who are more regularly creating in isolation.  We all saw this, I hope Stan did?!?!

Transition buckets:  Transition buckets was an outlier of efficiency for the Pistons. In transition, they generated an excellent 1.22 PPS. Unfortunately, they didn’t get nearly as many opportunities as Golden State. They ranked 14th overall with 15.2 transition possessions per game, which was more than 5 less per game than the Warriors.  We can thank Ish for this!

3Pt Shot: The corner three is the most efficient three, and the Pistons showed little interest in taking them. They ranked No. 29 in percent of shots from the corners. They weren’t much better on above-the-break 3-point attempts. There, they ranked No. 23 in the NBA. In addition, the Pistons were No. 28 in FG% above the break, which means their shooters weren’t adept at keeping help defense out of the lane.

The league averaged 36 percent from 3-point land, and no one on the Pistons with at least 80 3-point attempts shot better than 36 percent.

Attack The Rack:  When Tobias Harris drove to the hoop, he got 1.12 PPS. When Andre Drummond posted up, he got 0.81 PPS. In other words, 100 Harris drives would yield 31 more points than 100 Drummond post ups (part of the problem is that Drummond is an atrocious free-throw shooter).

Let’s recap PPS. The Pistons averaged a league worst 1.04 PPS. Anything above 1.04 helps. Anything above 1.10, especially in the half-court, offense is great. Anything below .85, such as a Drummond post-up, should be carried deep into the woods, buried in a deep hole and never spoken about again.

Even though a Harris drive was far more efficient than a Drummond post-up, Detroit used the two about the same. Harris has 361 drives, and Drummond had 335 post-ups.  Stupid Van Gundy

Let's get this Shyte Fixed!!  The question is, is SVG even capable and aware??

BallinD it seems insane to even think that it would be possible for an NBA owner to become involved in offensive strategy telling the head coach his favorite player needs to get X amount of touches in the half court set. But we have all been told previously that Tom Gores takes private calls from Andre. Do they discuss the weather? Does AD complain to the owner when he doesn't get enough post up touches? Did he complain to Tom Gores when the shooting coach tried to teach Andre how to shoot a free throw? I can't imagine any player who shoots the ball as badly as Drummond not following orders from the head coach. Wouldn't any rational person listen to the shooting coach that the team hired specifically for you when you have no idea how to shoot a free throw? Yet somehow or some way SVG backed down like maybe the ball boy would do but never a head coach. Andre had his way and we all saw the result. Why would he do that? He had to receive orders from the owner on that issue. And then Drummond went on a horrible streak at the free throw line after the half way point. Still no sports reporter brought up the question of why in hell didn't Andre use the shooting coach. Maybe that alone should tell us who made the decisions when it came to Andre Drummond's ability to get away with the silliest things that only a small child should even think of. You are an adult who got real lucky and somehow you are blessed with tons of money coming in. All you have to do is play basketball and follow instructions. You are really big and athletic and all you have to do to make the coach happy is run the court hard, set up in the paint on defense and protect the rim and block shots. No sane coach would want Drummond to get post up touches. No sane coach would allow the highest paid player to get away with not "being engaged". No sane coach would allow a player to tell the coach that he won't use a shooting coach when the player is the worst free throw shooter in history and is slated to play a lot of minutes for the team. SVG is not that dumb. He had to be told to let Andre have his way. Did SVG get the new dog to help calm him down next winter when he gets calls after games from the owner. Does it go like this?
( Do not mess with Andre Drummond coach. He is special to me Stan and I own the team. We have a special bond so don't bug him and give him more post ups so he can show off that amazing baseline hook. And I don't give a crap if he misses the free throws. Anybody can miss free throws. His hands are too big so that shooting coach couldn't help him anyway. So just stop it will you? And no more players only meetings got it? My guy hates that stuff. Andre said that he is the team captain and told the players there will be no more players only meetings so you better back him up. Got to fly to LA in the morning. Don't make me call you again.)
Stan gets off the phone thinking that he might get fired before the next game. He can't sleep. He can't think straight. No wonder the team looked so lost. But Andre was still smiling and still dancing before the games started that were all loses. He was having fun. That is what counts the most. So the dog should help SVG this coming season. Now the theme between the owner and The Franchise Player and Captain is that they should both rest as much as possible. Do you think they were passing a bong back and forth in an Indian sweat house while SVG was on his phone with both the owner and Andre getting orders as to which players should be used in the summer league finals? Is that why Detroit lost that close game? What would Roger Federer say about this idea that professional athletes should rest during the off season if they can only get 5% of their first serves in play?


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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:38 pm

Murph wrote:To me the long term key to Avery Bradley in Detroit is whether or not he can transition to a PG or even a combo guard, like he was when he came into the league.  Everyone is calling for an upgrade at the PG position.  It's just possible Bradley could provide this.  

If I were SVG, I'd give Bradley a lot of reserve PG minutes, and see what he can do.  And if the Pistons are not satisfied that Bradley can make the transition, they can always let him walk at the end of the year, start Kennard the following year, and try to find another starting PG, if Jackson doesn't fully recover.


My hope for Boban is that he can play significant minutes in close games in the 4th quarter.  As many have already pointed out, hack-a-Dre is killing us in close games down the stretch.  I would have no qualms about Boban finishing close games to neutralize Drummond's poor free throw shooting and hack-a-Dre.

Murph let's hope that Bradley does get point guard minutes this season. If Reggie plays with that look that he is out of gas after three minutes on the court we could see Avery starting at point guard depending on how the other two point guards pan out this season. Bradley was an extremely effective 2 guard last season playing with another ball dominate point guard in Thomas. He has learned how to find the open spots and uses screens well. Hopefully Johnson does win the starting small forward spot because it will be refreshing to see him set hard screens for guys like Bradley and Harris if SVG uses more of a motion offense. Last season the team created a new offense called the no motion offense when 4 players stand in place so the point guards can show off their ability to make something happen. How do I do that coach? Don't ask me just do it. That was the strategy last season. Or should I say there was no strategy in the half court set. Some of us call that mindless AAU style basketball but that should be reserved for high school players. SVG gets the dunce cap award for his inability to make adjustments when everyone including the cheer leaders had difficulty watching Piston games.

Bradley doesn't have to become the Piston's starting point guard but if he does that would be really cool. Avery Bradley is the first real close to top tier NBA player that Detroit has had in a long time. He has all the right stuff to make you think you are watching one of the old Bad Boys. He was one of the top performers in the playoffs last season. When Thomas went down with his injury, Bradley became the leader and clutch player. Boston fans are very sad now because he was perhaps their favorite player. He was the guy who made key steals and stops in crunch time all season long for Boston. Detroit management needs to sign this player above any player we have had in years. He changes the team chemistry and style. Just stay injury free Avery.

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Observations

Post  Murph on Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:01 am

To me the long term key to Avery Bradley in Detroit is whether or not he can transition to a PG or even a combo guard, like he was when he came into the league. Everyone is calling for an upgrade at the PG position. It's just possible Bradley could provide this.

If I were SVG, I'd give Bradley a lot of reserve PG minutes, and see what he can do. And if the Pistons are not satisfied that Bradley can make the transition, they can always let him walk at the end of the year, start Kennard the following year, and try to find another starting PG, if Jackson doesn't fully recover.


My hope for Boban is that he can play significant minutes in close games in the 4th quarter. As many have already pointed out, hack-a-Dre is killing us in close games down the stretch. I would have no qualms about Boban finishing close games to neutralize Drummond's poor free throw shooting and hack-a-Dre.
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And Then Some

Post  BallinD on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:27 pm

Cool, what can I say, you continue to hit it out of the park again with this last post.  Is it Tom Gores who makes Andre a sacred cow who cannot be coached, directed or trained?  Does he enable SVG?  We need another basketball guy in the decision-making process not hired by SVG.  What the hell is Arn Tellum doing for our BBall side of things? Where is Isiah, Chauncey, Laimbeer? great basketball minds who could consult, like other teams have used Jerry West, etc.  

BTW, Excellent Article: The Athletic...Pistons Analysis  Written by a Ph.D in mathematics.

I hope SVG and his coaches are up to speed on this stuff.
As to the article linked above, interesting tidbits SVG neeeeeeds to address!!  

Points per Shot:

The Pistons have five players among the 99. Tobias Harris was the most efficient, generating 1.14 PPS and ranking No. 47. A ranking of 47th is more impressive than it sounds. He’s above DeMarcus Cousins, Russell Westbrook, DeMar DeRozan, John Wall and others who are typically considered to be exceptional offensive players.

 

Assists n Ball Movement: How did the Pistons rate in ball movement? They were No. 26 in the NBA in secondary assists and No. 19 in seconds per touch.  Bradley and Kennard to the rescue?

If we want to point fingers at an individual, the clear culprit is Reggie Jackson. He has a history of holding the ball. In 2015-16, he led the NBA (among players with at least 150 minutes played) in seconds per touch. That year, he held the ball an average of six seconds each touch. Last season, he reduced his touch time to 5.44 seconds, but that was still the third-highest in the league. He’s holding the ball more per touch than Harden, Westbrook and others who are more regularly creating in isolation.  We all saw this, I hope Stan did?!?!

Transition buckets:  Transition buckets was an outlier of efficiency for the Pistons. In transition, they generated an excellent 1.22 PPS. Unfortunately, they didn’t get nearly as many opportunities as Golden State. They ranked 14th overall with 15.2 transition possessions per game, which was more than 5 less per game than the Warriors.  We can thank Ish for this!

3Pt Shot: The corner three is the most efficient three, and the Pistons showed little interest in taking them. They ranked No. 29 in percent of shots from the corners. They weren’t much better on above-the-break 3-point attempts. There, they ranked No. 23 in the NBA. In addition, the Pistons were No. 28 in FG% above the break, which means their shooters weren’t adept at keeping help defense out of the lane.

The league averaged 36 percent from 3-point land, and no one on the Pistons with at least 80 3-point attempts shot better than 36 percent.

Attack The Rack:  When Tobias Harris drove to the hoop, he got 1.12 PPS. When Andre Drummond posted up, he got 0.81 PPS. In other words, 100 Harris drives would yield 31 more points than 100 Drummond post ups (part of the problem is that Drummond is an atrocious free-throw shooter).

Let’s recap PPS. The Pistons averaged a league worst 1.04 PPS. Anything above 1.04 helps. Anything above 1.10, especially in the half-court, offense is great. Anything below .85, such as a Drummond post-up, should be carried deep into the woods, buried in a deep hole and never spoken about again.

Even though a Harris drive was far more efficient than a Drummond post-up, Detroit used the two about the same. Harris has 361 drives, and Drummond had 335 post-ups.  Stupid Van Gundy

Let's get this Shyte Fixed!!  The question is, is SVG even capable and aware??
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Players Piston management cannot remove from the team because of bad contracts

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:06 pm

Stan Van Gundy got real lucky when Boston agreed to make the trade with the Pistons for Avery Bradley. If that hadn't happened it could have been a real possibility that SVG and his entire crew would have been fired before the trade deadline. As wise posters have pointed out especially the recent post involving SVG's bungling of the possible trade involving Jackson and Rubio both the front office decision making skills and the coaching skill level would get flunking grades. Why didn't SVG make that trade where we get a pass first play making guard who can defend much better than Reggie Jackson? The answer is at the time SVG was still sold on his lame offense based on the pick and roll play between Jackson and Drummond. Is that all you got coach? How stupid could this man be at the time he turned down that trade offer? The Piston coaching staff never could get the team past first level play which means the game was designed for idiots. No other team I watched played as dumb as the Pistons with this theme that success could be had by allowing a ball dominate selfish point guard to make only one play that didn't involve him and that was the pass to Drummond for the dunk as Reggie wildly drove into the lane out of control. Then when Reggie got hurt Stan must have had a panic attack and went with the same game play only this time with Ish Smith. Every team member that didn't include Reggie Jackson, Ish Smith or Andre Drummond were confused and dejected with the entire operation. But the owner didn't even notice so that tells me a lot about the owner. Who wants to watch basketball for idiots? Nobody moving without the basketball. Nobody setting screens unless you call Drummond's lazy weak screen attempts actual screens. I am only talking about the starters here. Baynes tried to set good screens but the players in the 2nd unit didn't know how to use the screens. It didn't matter anyway because Ish Smith played the same ball dominate point guard creates everything in the offense style.

REGGIE JACKSON cannot be trade most likely unless Detroit includes one of our players on rookie contracts or future first round picks. Nobody has said that regarding the Pelicans or Knicks rumors but I bet that is the real situation. It is just too much of a gamble to make a trade for Reggie because of his situation last season and his contract. The time has passed and opportunities missed regarding trade opportunities involving Reggie Jackson. We have to hope he changes his attitude about selfishness but that is the way he has always played the game. He is also selfish on the defensive end because he just doesn't give a crap about playing defense so he doesn't give an honest effort. He is protected by the head coach in this area too. Has anyone ever heard SVG ever complain about Reggie's defense? The two buds Jackson and Drummond have this in common. They don't give a crap about playing great defense. How will that affect the team chemistry this coming season? Avery Bradley must take control of this team with the help of Tobias Harris. If asses need to be kicked in the locker room as others have suggested, then so be it that is once the head coach is busy giving his post game press conference. He protects his babies. He is tough on the rest of the players and protective of his pets. Everyone knows it because SVG established this special set of rules for his highest paid athletes. That is what killed the team chemistry more than anything else last season. As a coach you need to say more than soft criticisms such as "you need to be more engaged". Maybe at one time SVG was a hard driving task master when he felt with lazy weak minded self absorbed players, but if so this man has changed to become one of the softest coaches in the NBA. Is this what happens when you are handed too much power to run the team?

LEUER is simply of no interest at all to any other NBA team at this time. SVG and his buddy in the front office had a brain fat last summer when they decided to bid against themselves to sign Leuer. By the way who else wanted this player who sat the bench for Phoenix? He has a weak upper body and cannot defend any power forward or center in the league. SVG was dreaming of a miracle again based on his obsession with 3 point shooting.

BOBAN is another example of SVG and his hand picked GM deciding to bid against themselves which is unlike any NBA front office I follow. Again this happened last summer when SVG and Brower were giddying about the Pistons making that 8th spot in the playoffs. They sign Smith who had no other offers. Philly liked TJ McC. the undrafted point guard over Smith at the time. Smith was the only player of the three over priced athletes (Boban, Leuer, Smith) that actually did a good job. All three were huge gambles and hurt Detroit's overall financial position especially when SVG made a big deal about his victory involving signing our lazy ass big man Andre Drummond to the max deal. Four huge blunders from a GM perspective got the Pistons to the point when all the talk involved the potential signing of Pope to another massive contract where the Pistons would once again bit against themselves. You can bet SVG would have done it too if he didn't get the life saver when Boston signed Hayward and released Bradley. That had to be a tough pill to swallow on Bradley's part.

Does Avery know about the dysfunction SVG has created with this team with Reggie and Andre? Has SVG's alleged self analysis made him realize the part he played in the dysfunction and the bad team chemistry issues? Does he really like having all of his assistant coaches being YES men and not calling SVG out for what he did last season? Did he address this with Avery Bradley and promise that he is done playing Mother with Andre and Reggie? I wanted both of these players out of the Piston organization several weeks before last season ended. After Andre made the comments about the only thing his team needs is rest, that should have been it for Drummond. Both of these players have been identified as problem players by the ignored Piston fan base. The coach has been identified as a big problem as well. It is all out in the open in a big way. There is nowhere to hide. All three must produce this season as everyone will be watching how SVG handles the game time coaching decisions and we all will be watching Jackson and Drummond to identify if they are faking it or are attempting to finally become real basketball players giving what the team needs rather than what they want to provide. We will need to watch because we can't count on the coach not having his blinders on next season. Avery Bradley needs to transform the Pistons into a real NBA team. He will have a lot of returning players on his side to. SVG has shown his inability to be the boss. This year the players need to lead the team in the right direction with the head coach keeping his nose out of any future players only team meetings. That is where the ass kicking can take place or at least could have in the old days. But what do you think Labron does in the locker room at Cleveland? He is old school.

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Well, I errr, well it was like this....Oh sh!t, I'm ashame!

Post  deusXango on Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:19 am

BallinD wrote:Post  Oracle Today at 9:01 am

DX, you should be cautiously excited, but Don makes an excellent point.

Reggie has real issues, and they're not because he doesn't play hard and give his all, but...


With all due respect guys, is it just me, or doesn't anybody else remember the Dec. 19 2016 game vs the Bulls when Weggie refused to shoot the ball and came down the court made one pass and went and stood in the corner with his hands on his knees as the Bulls ran out to a 16-6 lead.  This was the first game after the players only meeting and he was literally dogging it with his body language and his refusal to engage as our starting point guard.  He was saying with his actions, "Ok, y'all want me to pass, you think I shoot to much and dribble too much, well watch this.  I won't do any of that!" mad

I remember watching this game, screaming at the TV and wondering how SVG let him get away with that and how the He11 anybody could trust this egoistic buffoon again.  

Well I still don't trust this me-first player and have to remind everybody...he does not play hard.  He refuses to push the pace, even when SVG implores him to do so, and he dogged it on the big stage, right after he got his feelings hurt."  A big baby er..biotch!

Or am I being unreasonable and should just let it go.  Like letting a cheating girlfriend back in your bed.. Nope.
BallinD, I thank you for reminding the public at large what an asshole Reggie has shown to be right here in the "D." I remember and also remember how much rope SVG gave this jackass; I'm speaking from the vantage point of "guarded optimism." Perhaps with a running mate, the quality of Avery Bradley, he'll change from the nonsense to playing real basketball, or get his ass kicked in the locker room. How's that for a players only meeting?

I know there's no excuse for poor taste, but when the Jackson for Rubio trade was turned down, I lost hope of Reggie being traded by SVG, especially when Van Gundy apologized to Reggie for that "ugly" rumor getting out and giving him assurances that it wasn't true. When rumors fly about Drummond getting traded, but all is quiet or ridiculous about Reggie leaving, I'm guardedly optimistic about our PG situation.

"Like letting a cheating girlfriend back in your bed.. Nope." tb
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Drummonds and Jackson on the block

Post  Phil1980boy on Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:20 pm

If Stan can dump Reggie Jackson without giving up any young players or draft picks, I would give him executive of the year.

I don't look for the Pistons to have A really good season. BUT!! BUT! BUT! If Stanley Johnson breakout!!?? LOOK OUT! If Stanley looks bad this year, he will be in some kind of trade package with Reggie Jackson.. I can almost GUARANTEE IT!!!

Look out or Ellenson. He should make Stan think about moving on from John Leuer.

For now we just watching the trade wire to see if the Pistons can pull of A miracle and dump Reggie Jackson. Or if Boston will come off some of those Draft Picks and take Drummonds off our hands.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:09 pm

BallinD wrote:Post  Oracle Today at 9:01 am

DX, you should be cautiously excited, but Don makes an excellent point.

Reggie has real issues, and they're not because he doesn't play hard and give his all, but...


With all due respect guys, is it just me, or doesn't anybody else remember the Dec. 19 2016 game vs the Bulls when Weggie refused to shoot the ball and came down the court made one pass and went and stood in the corner with his hands on his knees as the Bulls ran out to a 16-6 lead.  This was the first game after the players only meeting and he was literally dogging it with his body language and his refusal to engage as our starting point guard.  He was saying with his actions, "Ok, y'all want me to pass, you think I shoot to much and dribble too much, well watch this.  I won't do any of that!" mad

I remember watching this game, screaming at the TV and wondering how SVG let him get away with that and how the He11 anybody could trust this egoistic buffoon again.  

Well I still don't trust this me-first player and have to remind everybody...he does not play hard.  He refuses to push the pace, even when SVG implores him to do so, and he dogged it on the big stage, right after he got his feelings hurt."  A big baby er..biotch!

Or am I being unreasonable and should just let it go.  Like letting a cheating girlfriend back in your bed.. Nope.

BallinD I loved the part about the cheating girlfriend being allowed in the bed. What a great comparison. You get an A+ for that one. You brought me back to that game too. I felt the same way. Reggie was screwing with the entire team except for his Co-Captain Andre the Giant. And of course Stan Van Gundy had his blinders on all through that game. First Stan interferes with the players only meeting because of his special relationship with his captains and then he allows Reggie's childish actions in that game. I think he did it for several games didn't he? But SVG sure did clamp down on Stanley Johnson around the same time period. I bet that SVG hates it when we bring up stuff that happened last season. He gets the award as the worst coach I have ever witnessed in dealing with problem players. He just ignores those who create the problems and picks on the fringe guys. That is a clear example of being a coward relating to failure to do the right thing as a coach. And he still ponders about the bad team chemistry last season. Reggie should be gone and Andre right behind him.

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Oracle and Forum

Post  BallinD on Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:47 pm

Post  Oracle Today at 9:01 am

DX, you should be cautiously excited, but Don makes an excellent point.

Reggie has real issues, and they're not because he doesn't play hard and give his all, but...


With all due respect guys, is it just me, or doesn't anybody else remember the Dec. 19 2016 game vs the Bulls when Weggie refused to shoot the ball and came down the court made one pass and went and stood in the corner with his hands on his knees as the Bulls ran out to a 16-6 lead.  This was the first game after the players only meeting and he was literally dogging it with his body language and his refusal to engage as our starting point guard.  He was saying with his actions, "Ok, y'all want me to pass, you think I shoot to much and dribble too much, well watch this.  I won't do any of that!" mad

I remember watching this game, screaming at the TV and wondering how SVG let him get away with that and how the He11 anybody could trust this egoistic buffoon again.  

Well I still don't trust this me-first player and have to remind everybody...he does not play hard.  He refuses to push the pace, even when SVG implores him to do so, and he dogged it on the big stage, right after he got his feelings hurt."  A big baby er..biotch!

Or am I being unreasonable and should just let it go. Like letting a cheating girlfriend back in your bed.. Nope.


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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:13 pm

Oracle wrote:DX, you should be cautiously excited, but Don makes an excellent point.

Reggie has real issues, and they're not because he doesn't play hard and give his all, but Drummond has no such excuse. Drummond fails his team from both a physical and mental standpoint and both issues are well within his control. All I can say in his defense is that for big men it does take more time to reach physical peak which sometimes makes the mental aspect hard for them, but it's amazing how he has energy for as many dunks as you can throw his way, but none on the defensive end.

But on to my post, just how good can this team be. Well, here's what I see, but first the assumptions.

1. If Reggie is 80% of the good Reggie
2. Drummond is 80% of the all star guy

We need those two things to happen because we once had three guys who could electrify and dominate a game, now we're down to two. Do we need a third?

IMO, we need our two remaining peak players to be who they are but what they need most is steady producers around them. On paper and in fact, we have two steady, though not flash producers now.

1. Avery Bradley - Replaces the defense that KCP brought with slightly better defense, but also brings steady consistent offense, the key ingredient the two stars need.
2. Tobias Harris - Is the definition of steady

So far, what I've described is the basis of a starting unit that is, on paper, more mature and potent than anything we've had under SVG. It's at least 15-20% better, and while that's not a huge number, over the course of a season 20% better can make a big difference in seeding.

So what else do we have: A much better bench! We now have what I think is much better shooting and IMO, a much better backup center in Boban, even if that statement has to be proved, I think in the long run, he will be better for us than Baynes, and when he isn't, Moreland will kick some ass out there.

Coaching: This is the biggest wild card, but if SVG can get his arse out of the way of this teams success, it won't be a problem.

So what should we expect? I could see this team finishing anywhere from 3-5th seed. Looking at this lineup, I even think we finally overcome our annual losing to the Wizards, I think we match up better now.

So what could go wrong? outside of the usual suspects, Reggie & Drummond, we would still face a few issues.

1. Chemistry: Nobody knows for sure how well the many new pieces will integrate together.
2. Bradley: Can he stay injury free
3. Shooting: Will it hold up over the course of a season, heaven knows we're due for a breakout

Heads we lose , tails we lose: This could be the situation with Bradley. We come up big, 3rd seed, he gets major attention, and because of the CAP situation, we simply can't match his offers. The flip side of that is that he sucks or gets hurt, we still can't sign anybody better, so we roll the dice again. This is a tricky one.

Should we optimistic? Hell yeah, we look pretty good on paper, and that's all you can ask going into the season. We can't control all of the things that can go wrong, but that doesn't mean that we should ignore them either.

Finally: I'd regularly bash the hell out of Dumars after the season when he regularly threw the players under the bus for his incompetence, and I'll do the same to SVG. I didn't like what Jow did, and I also don't like how SVG behaves either... as a coach or a GM.

However, he holds all of the keys to the franchise and while I'll vent, I always come home when the shooting starts  lol

Oracle SVG is promising he will be different. He keeps saying that he wants to use the entire roster. I agree with you that a lot will depend on Jackson and Drummond if they are both on the team at the start of the regular season. If SVG is going to be different then we can hope that the offense will be different and we will see more ball and player movement earlier in the half court offense. A lot depends on how Stanley Johnson plays the small forward position. He can be a catalyst setting hard screens, banging to get his share of the boards and going all out on defense forming a strong bond with Avery Bradley to bring back the old look of the Bad Boys. Johnson talked about wanting to be on a team like the Bad Boys when he was drafted. Now Bradley is talking about it. I expect our defense to be greatly improved this season and believe that if Drummond is not one his game he will be moved. We need a good athletic center to go with two outstanding defenders in Bradley and Johnson. I see Moreland beating out Boban for the back up center spot and Ellenson also playing center at times. I don't count out Boban but he is a real slow mover from end to end after about three times down and back. That is what I worried about last season when I watched him towards the end. But maybe he has an ace up his sleeve defensively. He is sure a threat on offense if the point guards will actually play a half court offense with ball sharing and movement.

I even like the Tolliver pick up. He is a great older guy who will help Henry Ellenson this year. And anything goes with Luke Kennard. He is a savvy basketball player who is way ahead of the norm mentally from any of our first round picks in a long time. He can shoot it, drive it, pass it and he rebounds. We now have some basketball players instead of specialists to watch an pull for. If the team chemistry is right then I expect Bradley to sign with Detroit next summer. He is not a flashy type guy who might really feel at home playing for the Pistons as their leader. For me now everything is better since the draft and the Bradley trade. This is a new era. The unknowns are like you said Jackson and Drummond. If they don't fit in then I expect SVG to do his job as the leader of the front office. Go Pistons!

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How good is this team?

Post  Oracle on Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:01 pm

DX, you should be cautiously excited, but Don makes an excellent point.

Reggie has real issues, and they're not because he doesn't play hard and give his all, but Drummond has no such excuse. Drummond fails his team from both a physical and mental standpoint and both issues are well within his control. All I can say in his defense is that for big men it does take more time to reach physical peak which sometimes makes the mental aspect hard for them, but it's amazing how he has energy for as many dunks as you can throw his way, but none on the defensive end.

But on to my post, just how good can this team be. Well, here's what I see, but first the assumptions.

1. If Reggie is 80% of the good Reggie
2. Drummond is 80% of the all star guy

We need those two things to happen because we once had three guys who could electrify and dominate a game, now we're down to two. Do we need a third?

IMO, we need our two remaining peak players to be who they are but what they need most is steady producers around them. On paper and in fact, we have two steady, though not flash producers now.

1. Avery Bradley - Replaces the defense that KCP brought with slightly better defense, but also brings steady consistent offense, the key ingredient the two stars need.
2. Tobias Harris - Is the definition of steady

So far, what I've described is the basis of a starting unit that is, on paper, more mature and potent than anything we've had under SVG. It's at least 15-20% better, and while that's not a huge number, over the course of a season 20% better can make a big difference in seeding.

So what else do we have: A much better bench! We now have what I think is much better shooting and IMO, a much better backup center in Boban, even if that statement has to be proved, I think in the long run, he will be better for us than Baynes, and when he isn't, Moreland will kick some ass out there.

Coaching: This is the biggest wild card, but if SVG can get his arse out of the way of this teams success, it won't be a problem.

So what should we expect? I could see this team finishing anywhere from 3-5th seed. Looking at this lineup, I even think we finally overcome our annual losing to the Wizards, I think we match up better now.

So what could go wrong? outside of the usual suspects, Reggie & Drummond, we would still face a few issues.

1. Chemistry: Nobody knows for sure how well the many new pieces will integrate together.
2. Bradley: Can he stay injury free
3. Shooting: Will it hold up over the course of a season, heaven knows we're due for a breakout

Heads we lose , tails we lose: This could be the situation with Bradley. We come up big, 3rd seed, he gets major attention, and because of the CAP situation, we simply can't match his offers. The flip side of that is that he sucks or gets hurt, we still can't sign anybody better, so we roll the dice again. This is a tricky one.

Should we optimistic? Hell yeah, we look pretty good on paper, and that's all you can ask going into the season. We can't control all of the things that can go wrong, but that doesn't mean that we should ignore them either.

Finally: I'd regularly bash the hell out of Dumars after the season when he regularly threw the players under the bus for his incompetence, and I'll do the same to SVG. I didn't like what Jow did, and I also don't like how SVG behaves either... as a coach or a GM.

However, he holds all of the keys to the franchise and while I'll vent, I always come home when the shooting starts  lol
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Perhaps I'm delusional, but I don't think so

Post  deusXango on Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:08 pm

I've had my foot in Reggie Jackson's ass for the longest, for what I feel was selfish play, in slow motion, but with the addition of Avery Bradley in the starting backcourt and his assurances that he's returned to physical form, I'd love to place my foot in my mouth. I want so much to get excited about this team again. A lot has been said about the declining east, but there's some great guard combos in the east and I hope we have one, if not the best.

The 2nd unit is better than it's been since our last glory days and if what SVG said is true about playing everybody in his rotation it's more than encouraging...I'm eager to see Kennard, Ellenson, and Johnson get some real, consistent, playing time; playing veterans like Bullock, Tolliver, Smith, and Galloway is the closest thing to a guarantee we'll be able to come out of a hole (if we should find ourselves in one), hold a lead or increase one. I see our Pistons as being a middle of the road western team or one of the top 3-4 teams in the east and that's starting  this year. When an elite rebounding, max player is the weakest link on the team, we're well on our way. Now's the time to earn your coaching accolades SVG.
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"I want them to know I am going to play hard and bring it every game" -- Avery Bradley

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:12 am

Tell me who has had the Pistons number for a long time? Opponent NBA players of the Detroit Pistons and opposing coaches that's who. On PASS you get the perspective of opposing teams when they would play against the Pistons. There were so many nights when I heard statements about catching Detroit on one of their off nights where the starters would lay down in the first and third quarters of games. At no time did the Detroit coaching staff set any standards of play. They just watched the starters lag back on defense or point guards go one on two out of control because the coaching staff wanted them to push tempo. You can't push tempo on made shots so if you don't bother to play defense you have to slow it down and try to get a good shot in the half court offense. As Oracle has said about the front office many times, where was the plan? Not only was there no real plan with building a superior team but the coaching staff never adjusted the style of play to fit the players management had signed. Both are areas where SVG made all the decisions.

It is amazing that Stan Van Gundy has not been fired. But two of the players he banked everything on played an egg betraying him big time with simple lack of effort. Reggie Jackson looked really unhealthy not with the knee issue but with his stamina. Does he have a cardio issue? Or was it that he just didn't bother to get himself in proper physical condition before making a comeback from the knee injury. I think there is something more going on with Reggie than lack of conditioning. He knows what it takes. He did play really hard and was responsible for getting Detroit in the playoffs so in his case, I do not believe he betrayed the coaching staff. It was beyond his control. On the other hand, Andre Drummond cannot use the excuse he has made up relating to his breathing issues with the nose. I am a marathon runner and know you can breath from your mouth well enough to turn on the jets when you need to perform. Andre looked like a goof off and never did seem to be engaged during the last half of the season. He was not mentally or physically into helping his team win. He was showing up. That is why some of my friends stopped watching the Pistons. They couldn't stand watching Andre Drummond fake it on defense. When you are not mentally into a fast paced game where opponents are going all out you are going to look like a fool. And Andre sure looked like a fool against Anthony Davis who could score 100 points a game against Andre if he wanted to. All the charts and graphs that have been created remind me of Lee and his analysis of bench players who might be super stars if only they got the minutes. Those stats didn't take into account simple lack of interest in providing the team with what the team needed most. Andre Drummond betrayed the coach and all of his teammates and the Piston fans last season. A lot of people have his number now. Will the addition of Avery Bradley force a big change in Andre Drummond? He has been exposed. Maybe now he will grow up and be a man and give the team what they need most which is a strong defensive presence in the paint, control the defensive boards and block shots. Talk on pick and roll plays and stop switching off your man when he rolls to the basket. Box out your man in key moments so active players like Whiteside cannot tip the ball in to win big games because of failure to get a body on him or jump. Everyone will be watching Andre Drummond at the start of games and the start of the 3rd quarter now. We need to keep talking about it to force the coaching staff to be more aware. Maybe the head coach doesn't made enough money to may attention and make adjustments if someone is not playing with max effort.

This coming season there will be more emphasis on the team playing with maximum effort. I guarantee it.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:30 pm

Oracle wrote:Good response Don, and yes it's hard to trade for top talent these days, but it's a LOT easier if we had stock piled a bunch of picks like Ainge did.

That's the damage of not moving Monroe, KCP and possibly Smith for picks, IMO.

Ainge is an exceptional GM who works harder than any person that I have seen before. If you see Danny Ainge in person as I have over the years you always come away feeling that this guy is one of those former players who still must sneak into the gym and work his butt off trying to stay in shape. He knows a lot of details regarding so many college players and even high school players too. And he travels the country during the basketball season to watch a ton of college games and talk with the college coaches himself. How many GMs ever do that? How many college games did Joe Dumars ever attend? Joe had some of the worst scouts of any team in the league when he drafted Rodney White.

Ainge got something really big from his travels and the countless interviews and relationship building he did with the college coaches. From that he got to know Brad Stevens. What a find? All the draft picks he has lined up might come in second to the Brad Stevens hire.

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Don...

Post  Oracle on Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:05 pm

Good response Don, and yes it's hard to trade for top talent these days, but it's a LOT easier if we had stock piled a bunch of picks like Ainge did.

That's the damage of not moving Monroe, KCP and possibly Smith for picks, IMO.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:43 pm

Oracle wrote:Of course there are, but we're in the running because we're one of the worst. Let me elaborate.

We make trades and the trades sound good, but what happens over time... they fail. They fail because SVG & Team have absolutely no plan, it's all done on the fly, doing whatever feels right at the moment. He will correct mistakes quickly, but the speed of making those corrections again display how he has no plan, just reacting to events, never controlling them.

There was an article about SVG as the GM, and it gave him very good marks as they went through every signing, trade and draft. But fans are a LOT smarter, and the comments after the article showed that we have fans that see a much bigger picture than SVG ever does. Take a look at the responses below.


Man, I wish we could get some of these guys on this board!

But they didn't cover it all, I have one much more devastating failure that SVG has, one that destroys our ability to get better and makes it damn near impossible to get a star.

SVG has mismanaged the assets of this franchise, here's what he's done.

1. Josh Smith is still on the books
2. Greg Monroe was lost with no return
3. KCP was lost with no return.

Only an idiot lets these things happen, over 50M/yr dollars with either no return, or we're paying someone to not play.

What would Danny Ainge have done?

He would have gotten either,

1. Picks for each and every one of these guys 
2. A trade or a S&T, or he would have gotten assets for each one. 
3. Hell, giving Josh away for a 2nd rounder and a pound of butter beats paying him. He did what he did because he didn't have the balls to sit him or the brains to figure out how to use him.

In the cases of Monroe & KCP, he had years to figure this out, but he blew it BOTH times!!!

How freaking dumb do you have to be to let the same thing happen to you two times in a row?

So instead of stockpiling picks like Ainge did, we sit here, unable to get a top pick because we won't tank, and without the assets to trade for a star because he's mismanaged the club.

It takes planning, and I still don't see one except hoping to get excited about starting over... yet again!

I was against signing Josh Smith from the beginning. That one is one Joe Dumars but Joe did think that somehow Monroe, Smith and Drummond could be effective playing together. Smith ignored the offense that the team practiced and shot the long ball whenever he felt the urge. But Smith could defend when he wanted to defend. But he took a look at Monroe who was teaching Drummond bad habits on how to fake it on defense or being caught out at the 3 point line when the opponent's play was designed to go into the painted area. Monroe was one of the worst defenders I had seen until Drummond took over after Monroe left. Did SVG wait too long to see how things developed? YES he did. I remember one of those tributes being made for the Bad Boys where the Palace was full for the first time in many months. Everyone was really hyped up at half time excited about the old times and Isiah Thomas spoke with passion maybe trying to motivate the current players who included Smith, Drummond and Monroe at the big ticket items. Boy did Cleveland make those guys look bad in the 2nd half. People started filing out in the 3rd quarter. All three of the players mentioned were lagging down the court behind almost everyone from the opposing team in transition from offense to defense. Layup after layup after layup without any expression on the faces of the Piston players. I think at that moment SVG had had enough. But I think that Smith knew there was no chance of the Pistons competing for anything. He had been playing with Horeford at Atlanta and everyone played defense. SVG must have thought differently and removed Smith. We don't know what went on with SVG and Monroe's agent during Monroe's last season. In hind sight SVG should have moved Monroe for something instead of nothing but I sure would like to hear SVG's side of the story. Now we have Drummond with all those bad habits Monroe had as a defender plus the bad free throw shooting and the bad attitude. Maybe the bad attitude will disappear if he is not traded when Reggie Jackson is traded. Could it be that SVG will pull the trigger and remove the two man click that killed the team chemistry last season? That would be a good move.

Reggie Jackson did play with heart at the end of games two years ago. Teams might remember that and block out last season. If SVG waits and tries to get more before the deadline then maybe that is a smart thing. I won't second guess when I know nothing of what really goes on with these trade talks. What SVG is doing now is trying to fix some of the problems with the roster mix. We did get Kennard in the draft but should have tanked and perhaps drafted in the 5th or 6th spot which was possible. But everyone was thinking that the team might still pull things together and get into the playoffs. Back seat driving is an easy thing to do. I agree with you that a lot of decisions made especially last summer never made good sense. And Andre Drummond betrayed SVG after signing that contract. Andre was supposed to be a better defender, rim protector and shot blocker along with improving at the foul line. Instead when Reggie came back and played so badly Andre mailed it in and gave minimum effort even tweeting with Thomas in Boston acting like he wanted to be traded.

With all that said, it is really hard to sign a top tier NBA player these days unless you are one of the top teams with all the star players. You get the scraps. So I am really happy that SVG made the trade for Bradley who will be the best Piston player we have seen in many years. Just wait Oracle. You will get really excited about the Pistons real soon.

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Is there a worse organization than the Pistons?

Post  Oracle on Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:58 pm

Of course there are, but we're in the running because we're one of the worst. Let me elaborate.

We make trades and the trades sound good, but what happens over time... they fail. They fail because SVG & Team have absolutely no plan, it's all done on the fly, doing whatever feels right at the moment. He will correct mistakes quickly, but the speed of making those corrections again display how he has no plan, just reacting to events, never controlling them.

There was an article about SVG as the GM, and it gave him very good marks as they went through every signing, trade and draft. But fans are a LOT smarter, and the comments after the article showed that we have fans that see a much bigger picture than SVG ever does. Take a look at the responses below.


Man, I wish we could get some of these guys on this board!

But they didn't cover it all, I have one much more devastating failure that SVG has, one that destroys our ability to get better and makes it damn near impossible to get a star.

SVG has mismanaged the assets of this franchise, here's what he's done.

1. Josh Smith is still on the books
2. Greg Monroe was lost with no return
3. KCP was lost with no return.

Only an idiot lets these things happen, over 50M/yr dollars with either no return, or we're paying someone to not play.

What would Danny Ainge have done?

He would have gotten either,

1. Picks for each and every one of these guys 
2. A trade or a S&T, or he would have gotten assets for each one. 
3. Hell, giving Josh away for a 2nd rounder and a pound of butter beats paying him. He did what he did because he didn't have the balls to sit him or the brains to figure out how to use him.

In the cases of Monroe & KCP, he had years to figure this out, but he blew it BOTH times!!!

How freaking dumb do you have to be to let the same thing happen to you two times in a row?

So instead of stockpiling picks like Ainge did, we sit here, unable to get a top pick because we won't tank, and without the assets to trade for a star because he's mismanaged the club.

It takes planning, and I still don't see one except hoping to get excited about starting over... yet again!
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How about the interview with Avery Bradley. I still can't believe we got him - Trade rumors involving Pistons - Pelicans

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:18 pm

Avery Bradley is a serious basketball player who should create something crazy in piston land. He plays like the old Bad Boys. He is smart and unyielding and hates losing. If Detroit can sign him to a long term deal, other free agents will want to come to Detroit. I kept comparing Bradley to KCP on this forum depressed that the Pistons might sign Pope to a max contract while knowing Bradley is the real deal who was just sitting there waiting for a new home. Whatever I say about SVG and his coaching history last season, I will not forget what he did in securing Avery Bradley even if SVG is unable to sign him long term. And that might happen because Bradley is ready to be the MAN and Detroit might be the place where he reaches greatness.

I heard about the trade rumors involving the Pelicans who have had interest in Jackson for a long time. We get rid of Reggie's remaining $80 mil contract which was not enough for Pope and his agent. The proposed players we get are Alexis Ajinca who is a 7 foot 2 inch counter signed for 2 seasons at just over $5M. E'Twaun Moore is mentioned as the other player who is a combo guard who will make around $8.5M this season and is signed for 3 years. I can't recall ever watching either player. Any of you know anything about either player? Also wondering if the Pelicans trade would go down we might get their first round pick without giving up ours. Maybe this is old news and the Knicks-Pistons trade talk is the hot topic now. It is always good news to hear any type of trade talk involving Jackson.

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Not Feeling It

Post  BallinD on Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:48 pm

Oracle, I would be sorely pissed if SVG includes Ellensen or Johnson in as trade filler.  I wanna get rid of Weggie, but this is likely not happening, well maybe it is happening as the rumors continue to pile up.

Get rid of Leuer if anything. But I know the $$$ won't work, so we should be out or angle for picks, or this is where if we had not renounced KCP, could we have thrown him in at his cap-hold salary?  Can we extend Gbinije and then include his salary to make the trade?

Not feeling Ryan Andersen at all...but I'm feeling a youth movement and SVG is trying to save his job, so there is that!!

As is the Knicks clearly get better and we get older.  No more playing players out of position, like maybe we think we can move Bradley to point guard.  So much to despair about.


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Looks like we are being tossed around to move Melo, and Reggie may be the bait.

Post  Oracle on Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:34 pm

I like it, but include Leuer and take Ellenson out, we shouldn't trade Ellenson at all.
https://www.fanragsports.com/nba/knicks/knicks-likely-wont-get-significant-value-back-carmelo-anthony-trade/ wrote:With the Rockets seemingly hotter for Anthony than any team we’ve seen, now’s the time to punch in a trade.

So if Anderson is the big piece coming from Houston, what are some other possibilities in terms of additional trade partners? Knowing the Knicks still need a point guard, including the Detroit Pistons and reuniting Anderson with former coach Stan Van Gundy has potential.



The biggest problem here is the Rockets won’t want to part with Trevor Ariza. As a defensive standout, Ariza probably has more value to the Rockets than Anthony. Other than that, the Pistons would probably be thrilled to unload Reggie Jackson’s contract, which the Knicks can easily absorb.

It’s unfair to assume Detroit would trade second-year player Henry Ellenson, but Anderson is the perfect Van Gundy stretch 4. And after moving Marcus Morris for Avery Bradley, acquiring Anderson could help get the Pistons back to the playoffs.

For the Knicks, they get another young, stretch big in Ellenson, and Ariza, who comes off the books next offseason. Jackson isn’t exactly a player the Knicks should target, but he’s young and maybe a change of scenery would help.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:05 am

Sparma wrote:Rod Beard was the guy who talked about how much the Pistons' O missed Reggie while he was out.  I thought it was just a misstatement (maybe that they missed the Reggie of the previous season), but then he wrote something similar.

Now, commenting on the Bradley trade, he writes that before the trade: "More than likely, the Pistons weren’t going to be any better next season than they were last season at 37-45 if they kept the same roster together."  That seems really unlikely to me, due to what Bill James call the plexiglass principle (or maybe plain ol regression to the mean).  Given the high of the previous season and the low of the past season, my opening hunch while predicting would be something in between 44 and 37 given roster stability (complicating matters there already was some turnover between the two seasons).

It's an interesting comment though, going back to an earlier issue about how you could tell if the team was better post-trade and KCP.  As I passed along before, right after the Bradley trade (so before a couple of subsequent tweaks) Vegas predicted (roughly) a .500 finish for us.    

Beard's comment could possibly serve as a point of reference: at the end of the season, we'd [m]ore than likely not win more than 37.  The Vegas assessment could be seen as an early read of our movement post-season (working from the (questionable) premise that they would have been in agreement with Beard's prediction regarding no change.

Various problems though.  One is that we were going to be upgraded through the draft in any case, so that the 37 might not have been the marker anyway.

The second problem, from my point of view, is that the end of season prediction of 37 just doesn't sound accurate.  We'll never know for sure though.

It is difficult to argue with the assessment of the Vegas experts unless the two biggest problems that have not been addressed by Piston management come about before the trade deadline which is a bit earlier now. The big unknown for me is how and when the real power relating to leadership happens with the Piston players. Reggie and Andre believe they are the leaders. However, both were the biggest problem last season. They formed a click two for one and one for all. But neither could lead or play effectively. How could it be that SVG and Brower somehow cannot recall that Andre could not play a lot of the time in the 4th quarter because he made bone head decisions on defense and could not shoot free throws leading the the Hack a Drummond moments that ruined any type of offensive rhythm the team could possibly have given the coach allows a point guard dominating type of lame offensive system?

The experts saw it. Opponent coaches saw it but SVG and Brower ignore it this summer because perhaps they just cannot trade either Jackson or Drummond. So who will be the team leaders?? If Bradley and Harris step up and try to take charge how will that affect Drummond and Jackson? Drummond has already made his comments which make me believe he wants out of Detroit while still handling the role of team leader at least in his mind. "The team needs more rest over the summer". That should piss off any GM or head coach but there is only silence in the front office regarding the those comments and actions such as screw you coach I will not use your damn shooting coach. I ask any of you do you know any former teammate who would make such comments that you would ever want to play with on a team? What coach would tolerate that type of attitude?

As we look to the past every fan knew who was in charge of the teams that won the championships for the Pistons. Do we think of any of the coaches as being the leaders that brought us to glory? Zeke and Laimbeer formed a great leadership model. Billups was outstanding as the Piston team leader. Somehow SVG thought that Reggie and Andre should be the leaders and promoted that insane idea. Since when does a GM or head coach get involved in who the team leaders should be? What an ego Stan Van Gundy must have to promote his two pets like a PT Barnum circus act. It backfired big time though but the Vegas people must think Detroit has the dumbest management leadership in the NBA because Brower and SVG were afraid to confront the team's real issues which still are Andre Drummond and Reggie Jackson. Players hated playing with those two highly paid dysfunctional professionals last season so what will training camp look like this time around? That is the mystery. It is probable that either player will change their character? The odds makers figured that out while our duo management team spins yarns. Will Andre laugh again at the head coach face to face again? Will SVG say Andre please will you provide an effort on defense especially rim protection and shot blocking? Screw you coach I will only concentrate on my baseline hook. Will SVG ask Reggie to stop being a ball hog? Sorry coach that is my game. Is this management team guilty of being cowards afraid to confront the real problems or did they try hard to move both players but just couldn't get it done? I think the latter is the correct answer. The experts just say the Pistons are a team with the same issues or problems. Management didn't address those issues and won't talk about it. Good luck if the other players don't form a revolt.

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Melo to Houston... Can we get some of this action?

Post  Oracle on Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:08 am

This will involve a few teams, so I hope SVB has eyes on the situation.
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nba/2017/07/13/wednesdays-nba-league-looks-speed-up-game/103655330/?src=rss wrote:Personnel dept.

Carmelo Anthony could soon be joining his good friend Chris Paul in Houston.

The Knicks and Rockets are working on Anthony trade scenarios, according to an ESPN report. Some of them involve three- and four-team deals. Since those trades are complex and difficult to complete, nothing appears to be imminent. But ESPN reported that both sides are confident they can reach a deal.

The Rockets reportedly are looking for a landing spot for forward Ryan Anderson, who has three years and $61 million remaining on his deal.
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Re: FORUM

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