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Beating a Dead Horse

Post  Murph on Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:54 pm

[quote="deusXango"]
Before SVG was hired as Pistons coach, some fans held their noses at the thought of Bill Laimbeer and Rick Mahorn taking over as HC and his #1 assistant. "Why hadn't anyone hired Laimbeer before now? Coaching in the WNBA is a lot different than the NBA." Fans and local media were against giving Laimbeer a chance.

"Isiah Thomas has messed up in New York; he didn't do very well in Toronto, so what makes you think he'll be different in Detroit?" IMHO the greatest Piston alive should've been given first shot at being Tom Gores president of basketball...at least he wouldn't have fired Arnie Kander and Rasheed Wallace.

Would someone please share their thoughts on why the first thing Gores did was use the Pistons as a training ground for the unschooled to become franchise presidents. [/quote

I agree 100%. A lot of us have been calling for Bill Laimbeer to be hired as coach for almost 10 years now. And I think Mahorn would make a fine assistant and big man coach, along with Sheed. And yes, I'd make Thomas President of Operation, with a particular eye toward evaluating young talent. What Isiah has excelled at over the years is drafting.



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ARRRRRRRRRRRRH!!!!!!

Post  WTF on Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:44 pm

lemonpen wrote:What is the definition of insanity.  (Believing we will win with a ballhog and a low motor guy)

Count me a non-believer because I don't think these 2 deserve roster spots really at not starting ones.


I really hate being a pessimist but I have to keep it real barring any miracle of change with those two then we're stuck.  We're at a point we should be talking next level not hoping to crack a 8th seed and I just can't get aboard that way of thinking.  

Andre should be so far ahead of where he is now as a player 125 million is a lot of money to still be screaming potential going into year 6.  Reggie should be far ahead of where he's at yet here we are waiting for the magical change to happen.  It could happen but I'm tired of waiting and the same can be said for SJ going into year 3 and he still has crappy mechanics on his shot. 

No one is asking them to do the impossible it's not that we're blind to the fact that both have talent, we're not asking them to do anything that's physically impossible.  When it a mental thing that's in the way of progressing you have to let that **** go and at any cost.  So I have no real interest in getting fair value in return.  It's like having cancer and getting rid of it at all cost so take the hit on the perceived loses as long as you get better.  

I hate not being the Fan I was and cheering for the team I love most of my life.
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Lemon/ KCP

Post  Sparma on Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:30 pm

I think KCP will flourish this year too. What happens beyond that's a great unknown, but if he does well this year, he should land on his feet, even if not to the tune of 90 mil.

lemonpen wrote:
Sparma wrote:SI puts KCP at #98 in their player ranking, saying: "Cast as a prototypical 3-and-D wing, the 24-year-old shooting guard shot below league average from deep for the fourth straight year and posted a 107.7 defensive rating that was nearly seven points worse than Detroit’s mark when he was on the bench. Naturally, critics might wonder: If a “3-and-D wing" is both a subpar shooter and a minus defender, what is he?"

They do also say some nice things about him, suggesting that a change of scenery might be just the thing for him.

Maybe it's not be such a bad idea to avoid yet another bloated contract on a player at that level, even though he could improve?  Of course getting something in return for KCP and for Monroe (also on the list, described as too big to handle off the bench) would have been desirable.
Sparma,  I have a strong suspicion that Ervin Magic Johnson will be the best thing to happen to Pope's career.  KCP is going to learn how to think the game through and play with self control.   No more "firing at will" off balance, low probability shots or wild defensive lunges.  The Lakeshow will develop him between the ears.
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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:10 pm

Would someone please share their thoughts on a trade of Reggie Jackson for the rights to Nickola Mirotic.

Before SVG was hired as Pistons coach, some fans held their noses at the thought of Bill Laimbeer and Rick Mahorn taking over as HC and his #1 assistant. "Why hadn't anyone hired Laimbeer before now? Coaching in the WNBA is a lot different than the NBA." Fans and local media were against giving Laimbeer a chance.

"Isiah Thomas has messed up in New York; he didn't do very well in Toronto, so what makes you think he'll be different in Detroit?" IMHO the greatest Piston alive should've been given first shot at being Tom Gores president of basketball...at least he wouldn't have fired Arnie Kander and Rasheed Wallace.

Would someone please share their thoughts on why the first thing Gores did was use the Pistons as a training ground for the unschooled to become franchise presidents.
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Say It Again Cool !!!!!

Post  lemonpen on Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:03 pm

cool breeze wrote:90% chance if that happens our Pistons get the number 8th seed in the playoffs and go out without winning a game. The following are the reasons why details do matter and facts do matter regardless of the spin Piston management uses to sell tickets.

1. The playoffs are different from regular season games. The good teams have few defects unlike our two alleged key players. Detroit's opponent will create a game plan that will easily defeat the SVG 4 out and 1 in offense featuring Reggie and Andre. You can't win in the playoffs with simpleton AAU style basketball.
2. Detroit's opponent will target AD and RJ for their inability to defend their positions. You just cannot win if you play two brain dead defensive players who are not only low basketball IQ defensive players but also show no interest in providing their team with even average effort on defense.
3. AD will not be able to play in crunch time again because he is the worst free throw shooter in NBA history. How can anyone expect his free throw shooting to improve even 10%. Hack a Drummond will be a big part of the game plan for opponents.
4. If the East is extremely weak then SVG will for sure use the same old offense and that means players other than AD and RJ will not have any rhythm or be used to any other style other than the prescribed stand in place at your positions and watch Reggie and Ish create. Players on the Piston roster who have to take a back seat to Reggie and Andre because of the owner's special rules relating to the focus being on getting Andre the ball will just want the season to end. They will be fed up like they were at the end of last season as the head coach politics to keep his job by doing exactly what the owner requests.
5. Crunch time will have to feature Boban at center and Detroit's opponent will run his ass off the court in transition getting easy layups in the paint. SVG will say that Moreland is not ready and he will not play all season long and will be out of shape by playoff time.
6. Leuer will of course be a featured player again this season because SVG signed him to a bonehead big contract. SVG never admits a mistake. He will find fault with Ellenson much like he found fault with Johnson last season until Stanley lost his confidence. Notice no fault was directed to AD. He did everything right and had nothing to do with the losing that took place for the last half of the season. So whoever Detroit's first opponent will be, they will lick their chops when SVG marches out AD, RJ and JL in the same starting lineup. Leuer just cannot guard any power forward in the league. When he plays in the paint with Drummond, it is really funny to watch if you are not a Piston fan. SVG and his sidekick GM must be the only two management people in the NBA who think Leuer is worth in excess of $10M.
7. If Reggie cannot play SVG will bring Will Bynum out of retirement for one more go around. He likes to dribble around a lot too and actually did a better job than either Reggie or Ish and might have been a better defender as well. But in the playoffs, opponents love to play against SVG's point guards. SVG requirements for point guards have been identified as players who are ball hogs, hate playing defense, and have an inclination to drive too deep into the paint and get trapped. They also need to be turnover prone. The crowd loves it. The NBA is entertainment and SVG knows how to entertain the fans.
8. When Detroit makes the 8th spot and the local papers start building up the hype about the playoffs as commanded by Piston management, the cheer leaders will stage a walkout because Piston management only will pay them minimum wage being that it costs so much money to pay AD, RJ and JL inflated playoff money that was built into their contracts. AD will get 10M for just showing up for the first game and doing the pre game circle dance. RJ gets $7M for agreeing to bend his knees and raise his long arms on defense for the first 2 minutes of the first quarter. JL will get an extra $6M if he agrees to talk on defense and tell AD where to stand in the paint and remember not to switch on the high pick and roll play when his guard teammate has good position on his man. Leuer will say, AD remember don't make Bradley guard the center. This is the playoffs. Nobody is watching in the regular season but this is different.

I can only imagine what SVG's game plan will look like in that playoff series where only 5000 fans and no cheer leaders will attend the home games. I wonder if the owner ever wonders why the stands were so empty last season. Why would he expect anything different unless the tickets are free? Of course I might have exaggerated a bit here but so far I have heard nothing to indicate that SVG will actually do the right thing this season. Andre has not indicated that he will make a bigger effort and actually try to prepare for games this season. There is nothing to indicate that RJ has the ability or interest to defend his man any better than when he was in his prime. Everyone is keeping their fingers crossed that Reggie plays like he did two seasons ago. But Detroit lost that first series in the playoffs where the Reggie-Andre two man game didn't scare Cleveland and they picked on both AD and RJ on the defensive end. Two seasons have gone by but Piston management is determined not to change anything. Good luck!

What is the definition of insanity.  (Believing we will win with a ballhog and a low motor guy)
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I Disagree

Post  lemonpen on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:57 pm

Oracle wrote:

Ballin, Reggie returning to form gets us a top 4 seed easily, otherwise it's bottom 4, but we should make the playoffs barring injury or more SVG senior moments. Note that Reggie is the only player immune to SVG's coaching, the dysfunctional love each other Smile 

If he does regain form, look for these things to happen,

1. Drummond has a great year! I don't know if he defends better, but he'll score and rebound like a demon
2. Harris scores very little as a starter or scores decently if he's coming off the bench
3. Bradley has a BIG year! He'll be Reggie best buddy because he'll guard everybody that Reggie can't and he'll become Reggie's main relief valve when he or Drummond can't get their shot.
4. Leuer will have a good year(for him) if he starts, otherwise Ellenson eats his lunch.
5. Stanley's confidence grows and by season end he's very serviceable.
6. Success is the rookie killer, Kennard will see little time as SVG, smelling a high seed, will lean on veterans HEAVILY, and he won't even make any excuses!

Yes its back to business as usual, but success also shuts us up as we enjoy the ride.

Unfortunately if he doesn't regain his form, others get minutes and the formula is a complete mystery to me...
IMHO, a return to form pushes us back into a team that eventually becomes fed up with playin hard D only to watch a 2 man offensive effort.  Things changed after our playoff exit.  Afterward guys seem to dedicate themselves to TEAM ball, which really showed in how they played for each other during game 1-21.   I believe there will be surprisingly little tolerance for static O and resting on D.


Last edited by lemonpen on Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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KCP

Post  lemonpen on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:50 pm

Sparma wrote:SI puts KCP at #98 in their player ranking, saying: "Cast as a prototypical 3-and-D wing, the 24-year-old shooting guard shot below league average from deep for the fourth straight year and posted a 107.7 defensive rating that was nearly seven points worse than Detroit’s mark when he was on the bench. Naturally, critics might wonder: If a “3-and-D wing" is both a subpar shooter and a minus defender, what is he?"

They do also say some nice things about him, suggesting that a change of scenery might be just the thing for him.

Maybe it's not be such a bad idea to avoid yet another bloated contract on a player at that level, even though he could improve?  Of course getting something in return for KCP and for Monroe (also on the list, described as too big to handle off the bench) would have been desirable.
Sparma, I have a strong suspicion that Ervin Magic Johnson will be the best thing to happen to Pope's career. KCP is going to learn how to think the game through and play with self control. No more "firing at will" off balance, low probability shots or wild defensive lunges. The Lakeshow will develop him between the ears.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:44 pm

deusXango wrote:
WTF wrote:All day long I read some article saying how impossible it is to win in the NBA without constructing a super-team  facepalm  so if that's truly the case then why are the rest of teams playing in this league.  They say it's not possible to build a team like our 2004 champions. 100% Bullsh!t So why are we going back and forth about what we need when we obviously need 3 superstars.   

This whole thing is a joke, the NBA is a joke and our team is a joke.  I'm so glad that I'll have the NFL, NHL, NCAAF and NCAAB to distract me from this nonsense from now to April 2018.  

This NBA is not for me  I guess I'm too old school.
I totally agree with the spirit of your post Wise, there's more honesty of passion than fact of possibility. Consider for a moment, the history of the trendsetting team (that started with the Bad Boys!). The Great Chuck Daly coached Pistons were the smallest team in the NBA, but terrorized the entire league with its raw, hard-nosed, rugged, and smothering defense before David Stern put skirts on the rules. Those were the days of "political basketball," Rick Mahorn, our starting PF, but left unprotected in the expansion draft and The Captain, Isiah Thomas, left off the "Dream Team." Politics and nothing more. After the 2004 "Going To Work" crew, Boston assembled The Big 3" to counter these so called non-superstars, who were damn near impossible to beat, playing by the vanilla rules of the day. "Greasy" Riley, colluded, to bring to South Beach two truly megastars to play alongside D Wade, another megastar, and no one batted an eye. Damn shame, isn't it "Magic?" Now we have a "2004 Crew" on steroids out in Golden State and, what was a collection of megastars in Cleveland, but through it all San Antonio remained relevant...solid management, great coaching, high I.Q. players, a dedication to winning and direction...it's possible for Detroit to become relevant again and compete for the big prize, if we can muster up a solid management team, acquire a truly great coach, continue to bring in high I.Q. players, and reacquaint ourselves with dedication, hard work, and a winning attitude. Currently we don't have what it takes and it starts at the top!

Great comments from both of you. I find myself being much more interested in pro golf and tennis. The young guns playing professional golf have really made this sport exciting in my opinion. And how about the US Open where we had 4 American women make the semi finals? Regular season games are becoming more and more meaningless. There are too many games. The greed of the star players has ruined the balance of the league. The rules are set up to provide entertainment not good basketball. And the officiating is very suspect where the star players can commit up to 25 clear fouls per game and get called for one. Still some teams will provide their fans with some thrills. As for Piston fans, we get screwed again. We have an owner and management team with no vision. Players featured like to play the wrong way. How can fans get inspired with management fields a team with horrible team chemistry. and there is a good reason for that bad team chemistry too and we all know why we will most likely see a repeat of last season. Fire everybody and force the owner to sell the team. Then let the Bad Boys take over and run the ship. It wouldn't take them long to get the City and the State excited about Piston basketball. first off we get rid of the clown players. No longer will we see players like Charlie V, Reggie Jackson, Andre Drummond. Imagine if Zeke were the owner of the Pistons and AD called him at night crying after Bill Laimbeer got on his ass for failing to box out Whiteside again costing the Pistons another game. I sure doubt the response would be the kind and gentle politically correct SVG statement like wouldn't it be nice if Andre could be more engaged. Yes it isn't easy to be "engaged" when you make over $22 million a year. and have the attention span of an ant. That is asking way too much especially considering the past nose issues.

The Pistons are not the only NBA team that creates cream puff players and expect very little from them other than showing up for the endless meaningless regular season games. Eventually the television revenue will dry up. Fans will wise up and drop teams like the Pistons. Many of my friends did that several years ago. Too bad but to be expected especially when real basketball is not being played. Why not use a orange beach ball and increase the size of the rim diameter to 4 feet and remove the 3 second lines. The show must go on. A sucker is born every minute. I sure dread the thought of that 4 out and 1 in offense that will soon be coming to Detroit.

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I Have No Hope Not Today

Post  WTF on Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:20 pm

deusXango wrote:
WTF wrote:All day long I read some article saying how impossible it is to win in the NBA without constructing a super-team  facepalm  so if that's truly the case then why are the rest of teams playing in this league.  They say it's not possible to build a team like our 2004 champions. 100% Bullsh!t So why are we going back and forth about what we need when we obviously need 3 superstars.   

This whole thing is a joke, the NBA is a joke and our team is a joke.  I'm so glad that I'll have the NFL, NHL, NCAAF and NCAAB to distract me from this nonsense from now to April 2018.  

This NBA is not for me  I guess I'm too old school.
I totally agree with the spirit of your post Wise, there's more honesty of passion than fact of possibility. Consider for a moment, the history of the trendsetting team (that started with the Bad Boys!). The Great Chuck Daly coached Pistons were the smallest team in the NBA, but terrorized the entire league with its raw, hard-nosed, rugged, and smothering defense before David Stern put skirts on the rules. Those were the days of "political basketball," Rick Mahorn, our starting PF, but left unprotected in the expansion draft and The Captain, Isiah Thomas, left off the "Dream Team." Politics and nothing more. After the 2004 "Going To Work" crew, Boston assembled The Big 3" to counter these so called non-superstars, who were damn near impossible to beat, playing by the vanilla rules of the day. "Greasy" Riley, colluded, to bring to South Beach two truly megastars to play alongside D Wade, another megastar, and no one batted an eye. Damn shame, isn't it "Magic?" Now we have a "2004 Crew" on steroids out in Golden State and, what was a collection of megastars in Cleveland, but through it all San Antonio remained relevant...solid management, great coaching, high I.Q. players, a dedication to winning and direction...it's possible for Detroit to become relevant again and compete for the big prize, if we can muster up a solid management team, acquire a truly great coach, continue to bring in high I.Q. players, and reacquaint ourselves with dedication, hard work, and a winning attitude. Currently we don't have what it takes and it starts at the top!


Forget that those were great Pistons teams but both were cut from a completely different clothe.  This current group we have is a joke.  I could feel different  about our team if they gave the effort of those two championship teams,  if they were as smart and dedicated as those teams.  

The **** we debate here about these players is crazy.   We could say a ton of things about our championship teams but I don't if we would be debating their BB IQ, their energy or questioning their efforts,   We were debating if Zeke knew how to run an offense,  If Chuck and LB were good coaches or not but every day there is reason to question **** like this we this current group.  Considering where we've been and from where we came why do we accept this **** and make excuses for it.  

I have no faith in this group as it currently constructed to be anything other than an 8th seed at best.  Why most of you are okay with this I never understand it.  Really people we keep sitting here hoping players will get it,  we were hoping Zeke would get after 5 seasons,  we were hoping Hill would get 5 seasons in,  we weren't hoping Tay, Joe, Rodman, Salley, Hunter and where were these 5 players selected in the draft.   But here we are dealing with Andre dumbs ass and a host of other dummies both coaches and players.  This is BS
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:13 pm

Oracle wrote:@Sparma - The best thing that could have happened for KCP happened, he got a huge raise, went to a high signature franchise, got a real PG, even if only a rookie, and escaped from this mess. Now it's on him to prove to the world what he can be. I know you look at that as a risk, but people with confidence look at situations like this as great opportunities.

One thing working against him is that salaries have peaked and few teams will be able to afford him unless he really blows up, so there is some risk there.

@Don - Don, the BEST thing that could happen for us is for Reggie & Drummond to do very well! That means their stock will skyrocket and then we CAN get either something great in trade or very good #1 picks.

I do hope the "do very well" Oracle. If that does happen the team will have more options. But if we breakdown the details with their weak all around games considering they are on the bottom tier defensively now and chemistry busters on offense relating to how they interact with the rest of the roster players, how could that happen.

RJ is a ball hog and has ability to play only one style that doesn't fit with the rest of the most promising young players. There will never be much ball or player movement with Reggie. If Piston management get their wish and Reggie returns to his previous form, the team will not advance because the key players on the team will be statues on offense. The team chemistry will implode because the key players will not touch the basketball much. The key players might work hard setting screens and moving without the ball and be ignored because the offensive system is set up to feature Reggie and Andre. If both AD and RJ set new scoring records before the trade deadline the owner and SVG will not trade them. They don't mind losing.

AD lacks a high enough basketball IQ to ever be successful playing average defense or becoming a team orientated offensive player. He get his rebounding stats but they are offensive rebounds which is misleading. AD often gets credit for two or three offensive rebounds in one offensive possession. He is not a good defensive rebounder because he lacks the skill set to screen out his man or anticipate what plays the opponent is trying to run. AD does not do his homework and has never been a good student of basketball. That holds him back. And of course his value is greatly diminished as a starter because he cannot play in crunch time to this day after 5 seasons of NBA experience. He is the worst free throw shooter in NBA history and has refused to use the shooting coach SVG hired two seasons ago just for him. So we have to add the fact that AD is just not a coachable player. We have to hope he does well at what he does best and that is get a lot of offensive rebounds to build the stats up to the point where he can be traded. Yet the owner might never agree to trade his son. SVG will have to take the fall again this season. How can the Pistons win if Boban is playing defense in crunch time against fast athletic teams? That is asking a lot. The roster is greatly flawed, the coaching strategy is insane, and the owner meddles into areas he knows very little about. The owner gets the last word so expect AD to be around regardless of how he plays for the next 3 seasons at least.

The only chance this team has is for the key players who are not AD and RJ revolt against the system in place to feature the players Tom Gores wants to feature. He thinks Piston basketball is not about basketball at all but instead pure entertainment. Tom is an expert in entertainment. And the fans might buy into this farce because they like a good show with a dribble happy point guard and a big athletic center who can dunk the basketball. The coach has to somehow make this production work. There will be a lot of free tickets passed out this season. Fans will love the half time show. But the folks who purchase PASS to watch basketball will be disappointed.

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Hold out hope

Post  deusXango on Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:51 am

WTF wrote:All day long I read some article saying how impossible it is to win in the NBA without constructing a super-team  facepalm  so if that's truly the case then why are the rest of teams playing in this league.  They say it's not possible to build a team like our 2004 champions. 100% Bullsh!t So why are we going back and forth about what we need when we obviously need 3 superstars.   

This whole thing is a joke, the NBA is a joke and our team is a joke.  I'm so glad that I'll have the NFL, NHL, NCAAF and NCAAB to distract me from this nonsense from now to April 2018.  

This NBA is not for me  I guess I'm too old school.
I totally agree with the spirit of your post Wise, there's more honesty of passion than fact of possibility. Consider for a moment, the history of the trendsetting team (that started with the Bad Boys!). The Great Chuck Daly coached Pistons were the smallest team in the NBA, but terrorized the entire league with its raw, hard-nosed, rugged, and smothering defense before David Stern put skirts on the rules. Those were the days of "political basketball," Rick Mahorn, our starting PF, but left unprotected in the expansion draft and The Captain, Isiah Thomas, left off the "Dream Team." Politics and nothing more. After the 2004 "Going To Work" crew, Boston assembled The Big 3" to counter these so called non-superstars, who were damn near impossible to beat, playing by the vanilla rules of the day. "Greasy" Riley, colluded, to bring to South Beach two truly megastars to play alongside D Wade, another megastar, and no one batted an eye. Damn shame, isn't it "Magic?" Now we have a "2004 Crew" on steroids out in Golden State and, what was a collection of megastars in Cleveland, but through it all San Antonio remained relevant...solid management, great coaching, high I.Q. players, a dedication to winning and direction...it's possible for Detroit to become relevant again and compete for the big prize, if we can muster up a solid management team, acquire a truly great coach, continue to bring in high I.Q. players, and reacquaint ourselves with dedication, hard work, and a winning attitude. Currently we don't have what it takes and it starts at the top!
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I Give Up

Post  WTF on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:40 am

All day long I read some article saying how impossible it is to win in the NBA without constructing a super-team  facepalm  so if that's truly the case then why are the rest of teams playing in this league.  They say it's not possible to build a team like our 2004 champions. So why are we going back and forth about what we need when we obviously need 3 superstars.   

This whole thing is a joke, the NBA is a joke and our team is a joke.  I'm so glad that I'll have the NFL, NHL, NCAAF and NCAAB to distract me from this nonsense from now to April 2018.  

This NBA is not for me  I guess I'm too old school.
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One fanatics opinion

Post  deusXango on Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:49 pm

Why is Drummond and Reggie always mentioned in the same breath? They're not Siamese basketball players. I've read Don do that on several occasions when PG's are discussed (Ish and Reggie), but they play two different styles of basketball; Reggie is a middling scorer (never an elite level scoring outburst) and Ish is a facilitator who rarely turns the ball over...offensively he can't hit a bull moose in the ass with a bass fiddle. Reggie needs to go because if he doesn't, he'll poison the locker room. Ish is about the team and being the 3rd PG wouldn't cause a ruckus because that's what the team needs from him. A three guard rotation? Bradley, Kennard, and Galloway (with Bullock the 4th guard off the bench).

Thanks Sparma, for posting that SI ranking for KCP. He's a good guy that I wish well, but I would've hated it if he signed for max money with Detroit! I don't care how it was spent, he didn't earn it and wouldn't have had the best interest of the Pistons at heart.

I started out long ago calling for Reggie and Leuer being traded and now with the acquisition of Moreland, I want Leuer gone more than ever; for my money, play Boban until the cows come home. So what if he's lost in transition, haven't we seen the options to Boban get their heads handed to them? A lot of people are type casting Moreland as a center, but I see a helluva PF. Boban, Ellenson, and Moreland need to get as much PT as possible...I don't want to hear why we can't see them play throughout the season, because last week we were calling for a rebuild and saying how hopeless the season looked because the pieces didn't fit. We've already lost playing the mediocre veterans who provided absolutely no excitement, intrigue, or hope. We run the same old out there another season, even if Reggie is his old self and Drummond averages 20 rebounds, if the team has a loosing record by the 25th game, it'll be crickets in the LCA.

If I must watch us "tanking" I want to see Kennard, Johnson, Ellenson, Boban, Bullock, Galloway, and Moreland play a significant role in it...I don't think Drummond (really), Harris, and Bradley will not give their all from night to night. But of course there's those that must see what Smith, Tolliver, Jackson, and Leuer can do...ECF perhaps?
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Sparma & Don

Post  Oracle on Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:19 pm

@Sparma - The best thing that could have happened for KCP happened, he got a huge raise, went to a high signature franchise, got a real PG, even if only a rookie, and escaped from this mess. Now it's on him to prove to the world what he can be. I know you look at that as a risk, but people with confidence look at situations like this as great opportunities.

One thing working against him is that salaries have peaked and few teams will be able to afford him unless he really blows up, so there is some risk there.

@Don - Don, the BEST thing that could happen for us is for Reggie & Drummond to do very well! That means their stock will skyrocket and then we CAN get either something great in trade or very good #1 picks.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:14 pm

Sparma wrote:SI puts KCP at #98 in their player ranking, saying: "Cast as a prototypical 3-and-D wing, the 24-year-old shooting guard shot below league average from deep for the fourth straight year and posted a 107.7 defensive rating that was nearly seven points worse than Detroit’s mark when he was on the bench. Naturally, critics might wonder: If a “3-and-D wing" is both a subpar shooter and a minus defender, what is he?"

They do also say some nice things about him, suggesting that a change of scenery might be just the thing for him.

Maybe it's not be such a bad idea to avoid yet another bloated contract on a player at that level, even though he could improve?  Of course getting something in return for KCP and for Monroe (also on the list, described as too big to handle off the bench) would have been desirable.

Sparma what scares me is that if the Bradley trade hadn't happened I think there was a high percentage chance that Piston management would have agreed to max money for KCP. I have never believed that Pope showed that he is a high basketball IQ player. Of course few 2 guards have much of a change to get better playing with SVG's point guards. I wonder what SVG would have done if he had Rip Hamilton in his prime. Would we have seen Rip standing in place beyond the 3 point line watching the point guard dribble into trouble. When Either Ish or Reggie goes into the trap set for them they freak out looking for AD and the outlet to Harris who is smothered and covered with the opponents' best defender. An offense designed for idiots (RJ-AD) will turn the 2 guard into a statue. KCP never developed as an offensive player under that system. Still he played more minutes than any player and never improved his shot selection or passing skills. His ball handling was way below average which prevented him from driving to the rim and finishing well. And his defense was over rated by a mile. He could never figure out how to defend players like Wall or Beal. That is just one team but I still have the vision of Wall driving around Pope whenever he wanted an easy basket. KCP was forced to play the best opponent guard and that is always tough but he did a below average job of it. But he is light years ahead of Reggie and Ish on defense. No doubt about that. SVG still has those two players on his team. For us fans, we have to feel real lucky that we dodged a bullet when the Bradley trade was made. Who knows maybe Piston management will tear up Reggie Jackson's contract and give him max money not knowing if he will be able to play any better than last season. After making AD the team captain after signing him to that insane contract and then signing Boban and Leuer for insane money how can anyone trust them? You can bet that they would have giving Pope max money over estimating his value when nobody lined up to sign Pope after the Bradley trade.

The big issue this season is trust. How can Piston fans trust the Piston management team and the coaching staff after the history they have created? I wonder how SVG will be rated 10 years from now. I sound negative but knowing that coach Sean Miller speaks highly of SVG, something must go on in this organization where Stan is not calling the shots as much as it appears. It appears to me that someone who knows very little about the game of basketball is making decisions on what offense will be played to fit the franchise player and contract offers to our free agents. I recall Tom Gores making a comment last season where he mentioned how valuable KCP was and how he might be worth max money just like he did with AD. Remember that anyone??? When you do that, how do you negotiate with players when the time actually arrives?

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Even if Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond return to their previous form what will that end up getting the Detroit Pistons?

Post  cool breeze on Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:40 pm

90% chance if that happens our Pistons get the number 8th seed in the playoffs and go out without winning a game. The following are the reasons why details do matter and facts do matter regardless of the spin Piston management uses to sell tickets.

1. The playoffs are different from regular season games. The good teams have few defects unlike our two alleged key players. Detroit's opponent will create a game plan that will easily defeat the SVG 4 out and 1 in offense featuring Reggie and Andre. You can't win in the playoffs with simpleton AAU style basketball.
2. Detroit's opponent will target AD and RJ for their inability to defend their positions. You just cannot win if you play two brain dead defensive players who are not only low basketball IQ defensive players but also show no interest in providing their team with even average effort on defense.
3. AD will not be able to play in crunch time again because he is the worst free throw shooter in NBA history. How can anyone expect his free throw shooting to improve even 10%. Hack a Drummond will be a big part of the game plan for opponents.
4. If the East is extremely weak then SVG will for sure use the same old offense and that means players other than AD and RJ will not have any rhythm or be used to any other style other than the prescribed stand in place at your positions and watch Reggie and Ish create. Players on the Piston roster who have to take a back seat to Reggie and Andre because of the owner's special rules relating to the focus being on getting Andre the ball will just want the season to end. They will be fed up like they were at the end of last season as the head coach politics to keep his job by doing exactly what the owner requests.
5. Crunch time will have to feature Boban at center and Detroit's opponent will run his ass off the court in transition getting easy layups in the paint. SVG will say that Moreland is not ready and he will not play all season long and will be out of shape by playoff time.
6. Leuer will of course be a featured player again this season because SVG signed him to a bonehead big contract. SVG never admits a mistake. He will find fault with Ellenson much like he found fault with Johnson last season until Stanley lost his confidence. Notice no fault was directed to AD. He did everything right and had nothing to do with the losing that took place for the last half of the season. So whoever Detroit's first opponent will be, they will lick their chops when SVG marches out AD, RJ and JL in the same starting lineup. Leuer just cannot guard any power forward in the league. When he plays in the paint with Drummond, it is really funny to watch if you are not a Piston fan. SVG and his sidekick GM must be the only two management people in the NBA who think Leuer is worth in excess of $10M.
7. If Reggie cannot play SVG will bring Will Bynum out of retirement for one more go around. He likes to dribble around a lot too and actually did a better job than either Reggie or Ish and might have been a better defender as well. But in the playoffs, opponents love to play against SVG's point guards. SVG requirements for point guards have been identified as players who are ball hogs, hate playing defense, and have an inclination to drive too deep into the paint and get trapped. They also need to be turnover prone. The crowd loves it. The NBA is entertainment and SVG knows how to entertain the fans.
8. When Detroit makes the 8th spot and the local papers start building up the hype about the playoffs as commanded by Piston management, the cheer leaders will stage a walkout because Piston management only will pay them minimum wage being that it costs so much money to pay AD, RJ and JL inflated playoff money that was built into their contracts. AD will get 10M for just showing up for the first game and doing the pre game circle dance. RJ gets $7M for agreeing to bend his knees and raise his long arms on defense for the first 2 minutes of the first quarter. JL will get an extra $6M if he agrees to talk on defense and tell AD where to stand in the paint and remember not to switch on the high pick and roll play when his guard teammate has good position on his man. Leuer will say, AD remember don't make Bradley guard the center. This is the playoffs. Nobody is watching in the regular season but this is different.

I can only imagine what SVG's game plan will look like in that playoff series where only 5000 fans and no cheer leaders will attend the home games. I wonder if the owner ever wonders why the stands were so empty last season. Why would he expect anything different unless the tickets are free? Of course I might have exaggerated a bit here but so far I have heard nothing to indicate that SVG will actually do the right thing this season. Andre has not indicated that he will make a bigger effort and actually try to prepare for games this season. There is nothing to indicate that RJ has the ability or interest to defend his man any better than when he was in his prime. Everyone is keeping their fingers crossed that Reggie plays like he did two seasons ago. But Detroit lost that first series in the playoffs where the Reggie-Andre two man game didn't scare Cleveland and they picked on both AD and RJ on the defensive end. Two seasons have gone by but Piston management is determined not to change anything. Good luck!

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SI critical of KCP

Post  Sparma on Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:21 pm

SI puts KCP at #98 in their player ranking, saying: "Cast as a prototypical 3-and-D wing, the 24-year-old shooting guard shot below league average from deep for the fourth straight year and posted a 107.7 defensive rating that was nearly seven points worse than Detroit’s mark when he was on the bench. Naturally, critics might wonder: If a “3-and-D wing" is both a subpar shooter and a minus defender, what is he?"

They do also say some nice things about him, suggesting that a change of scenery might be just the thing for him.

Maybe it's not be such a bad idea to avoid yet another bloated contract on a player at that level, even though he could improve? Of course getting something in return for KCP and for Monroe (also on the list, described as too big to handle off the bench) would have been desirable.
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Curious

Post  deusXango on Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:44 pm

Oracle wrote:Amazingly, fans, and not just Pistons fans, see(or is that hope) their team is competitive. I know we get no respect in general, but can everybody be wrong?
https://www.detroitbadboys.com/2017/9/11/16288084/pistons-players-falling-on-sports-illustrated-top-100-list wrote:For each of the past five seasons, Sports Illustrated has produced its prediction for who the top 100 players of the season would be. After a poor showing in 2016-17, it’s unsurprising that several Pistons players saw their ranking drop from the previous year.

Andre Drummond is the highest rated player at 51st, coming in three spots ahead of Avery Bradley who ranked 54th. Reggie Jackson comes in at 78th and Tobias Harris is ranked 81st.

The duo of Jackson and Drummond had the most dramatic drops, with Drummond falling 22 spots after being ranked 29th last summer and Jackson 24 spots after a 54th ranking.
Just curious, where's KCP, Marcus Morris, and Jon Leuer projected to be this year?
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WTF

Post  deusXango on Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:28 pm

WTF wrote:
DX wrote:Some strong arguments have been made regarding who's the best players on the Pistons and at the end of the day, what's the value of being the best. There's been some campaigning for certain players, like popularity will win games, but compatible fit for a starting unit is never really, honestly, discussed. Why?

Okay DX I'm calling foul on this comment.  I would like to think that none of here are casual fans that want to see players getting PT just because we like them.  For the most part it's that cursed word "Potential"  sometimes over stated sometimes under estimated.   I'm always talking fit and rarely touting stats and athleticism.   

Sometimes we see what see and it's a clear as day.  IMO nothing on this team really fits
Wise, I was directing that "popularity" comment at myself...I don't favor Leuer over Harris or Ellenson, but he'll probably get the call to start over one of them and the other will probably hug the bench. Sorry, my Ebonics got in the way. lol
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If Reggie returns to form, this is what I expect...

Post  Oracle on Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:02 pm



Ballin, Reggie returning to form gets us a top 4 seed easily, otherwise it's bottom 4, but we should make the playoffs barring injury or more SVG senior moments. Note that Reggie is the only player immune to SVG's coaching, the dysfunctional love each other Smile 

If he does regain form, look for these things to happen,

1. Drummond has a great year! I don't know if he defends better, but he'll score and rebound like a demon
2. Harris scores very little as a starter or scores decently if he's coming off the bench
3. Bradley has a BIG year! He'll be Reggie best buddy because he'll guard everybody that Reggie can't and he'll become Reggie's main relief valve when he or Drummond can't get their shot.
4. Leuer will have a good year(for him) if he starts, otherwise Ellenson eats his lunch.
5. Stanley's confidence grows and by season end he's very serviceable.
6. Success is the rookie killer, Kennard will see little time as SVG, smelling a high seed, will lean on veterans HEAVILY, and he won't even make any excuses!

Yes its back to business as usual, but success also shuts us up as we enjoy the ride.

Unfortunately if he doesn't regain his form, others get minutes and the formula is a complete mystery to me...
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Tough Love

Post  BallinD on Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:33 pm

Oracle wrote:
Andre Drummond is the highest rated player at 51st, coming in three spots ahead of Avery Bradley who ranked 54th. Reggie Jackson comes in at 78th and Tobias Harris is ranked 81st.

The duo of Jackson and Drummond had the most dramatic drops, with Drummond falling 22 spots after being ranked 29th last summer and Jackson 24 spots after a 54th ranking.
[/quote]

A lot of stars (above) have to align for these two to carry us anywhere. How do we get that Star? We gotta get some picks. That is the only way, otherwise, shuffling Jennings and Illyasova for Harris, Morris for Bradley type moves are only gonna reshuffle the deck chairs on the titanic. We all know this, don't we?

I admit, it would be fun if 2015 Weggie and 2017-18 Andre put it all together. The outsiders are not betting on that, nor are the insiders (forum). Either that, or we trade the two for one star, for picks, or we find a way to fleece the Orlando's the Sacramento's of the NBA, which is even more unlikely. It takes picks these days to make trades for stars, Earth to SVG. Build on the players who have talent BBIQ and unquentionable will to win, not on those with Talent and Potential, but little else.
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Such is the love of a Mother... or Pistons Fan, LOL

Post  Oracle on Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:15 pm

Amazingly, fans, and not just Pistons fans, see(or is that hope) their team is competitive. I know we get no respect in general, but can everybody be wrong?
https://www.detroitbadboys.com/2017/9/11/16288084/pistons-players-falling-on-sports-illustrated-top-100-list wrote:For each of the past five seasons, Sports Illustrated has produced its prediction for who the top 100 players of the season would be. After a poor showing in 2016-17, it’s unsurprising that several Pistons players saw their ranking drop from the previous year.

Andre Drummond is the highest rated player at 51st, coming in three spots ahead of Avery Bradley who ranked 54th. Reggie Jackson comes in at 78th and Tobias Harris is ranked 81st.

The duo of Jackson and Drummond had the most dramatic drops, with Drummond falling 22 spots after being ranked 29th last summer and Jackson 24 spots after a 54th ranking.
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Going To Work

Post  BallinD on Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:08 pm

deusXango wrote:Some strong arguments have been made regarding who's the best players on the Pistons and at the end of the day, what's the value of being the best. There's been some campaigning for certain players, like popularity will win games, but compatible fit for a starting unit is never really, honestly, discussed. Why?

Stan Van Gundy as the head of the Pistons basketball concern has been a middling failure on all levels, but he gets what amounts to a free pass on shortcoming after shortcoming. On a lot of levels, he's a clone of Joe Dumars, during his days of decline. He's viewed as a great coach, but that would have to be based on a distant past...what have you done for me/us lately? He's sucked as a front office administrator, by fixing sh!t that wasn't broken, as a coach, that's responsible for putting together a coaching staff, and allowing pride & ego to make some fu@ked up decisions in offensive/defensive strategies, by playing the wrong players out of position and out of place. I place Drummonds lackadaisical play, and Reggie's selfish, ball hogging play directly on SVG, not Gores!

What Tom Gores has  done is permit the inmates to run the asylum (in undeveloped, wet behind the ears, jackass shouldn't be the face of the franchise), and allowed SVG to spend his money like a drunken sailor (apologies to the Navy men). If you're going to be bosom buddies with a player, let that player be a proven superstar, after all you are a billionaire owner and should be concerned with the company you keep. It's your money, but did you earn this money by allowing your trusted underlings to operate without fiscal accountability? With what's being presented to the Pistons fans, why don't you call the executive shots and coach the damn team? It's yours and couldn't be more fu@ked up if you did!

I keep Reggie in my sights because he's a b!tch style player, IMHO, and is way overrated by the local media and that 2015-16 season has poisoned the reasoning faculties of fans; that's what happens when you're passionate about the home team and stand to close to the bullsh!t. No one notices that he should've averaged 20+ points, as much as he ball hogs, but forgets that he ain't he first PG that we've had that could successfully run the P & R with Drummond. Hell, as recently as the beginning of last year, Ish ran it as well as getting others involved in the offence; Drummond had began to become more "engaged" and the 20/20 games (with some stellar defense) began to consistently pile up...that's when Reggie decided to hobble his selfish ass back on the floor and totally disrupt the chemistry the team had began to develop, along with a winning record. I won't get behind a player that puts personal glory ahead of his health and the teams chances of competing. What do we really think the players only meeting was about? Why did he need assurances from SVG that he wouldn't be traded when the Rubio trade was leaked? Isn't this a business where players are traded everyday?

Another Great Post DX, assist to Oracle, Weggie and Dre for firing you up, but it's really the hope -- My Hope -- that some bodys?? will be "Going To Work" this season and we will begin to see a determined, implacable climb back to relevance.  What do I mean by that?  No more pussyfooting SVG, and our "two best" players, er "worst defenders."  We all know what a push to relevance looks like.  We saw the Bad Boys crawling over broken glass (Boston and Lakers) to claim the title.

We know what it starts with, an implacable will to win (Zeke n Laims) (Chauncey, Ben) not talent (Grant Hill, Stackhouse, Stunkey, Ben Gordon?) and yet it takes ability to gauge Talent and harness will.  Too long, too many have mistaken athleticism for Talent.

Now we have Talent and Will, IMHO.  Talent: Dre/Weggie/Bradley/Harris/Ish/Kennard/Boban/Ellensen.  It must be unleashed and focused by those who have will (Bradley/Harris/Ish/Kennard(who else) to push through the broken glass and as a team climb to the top of the hill.  In our darkest, most realistic hearts, we all here at the Forum know that this team just doesn't have that rare combination of talent and will to git er done, but we still argue among ourselves and root for them.

Is the best player, the most talented and yet lazy/selfish/lackadaisacal, taller, long wingspan, or is it he with the will to push the team forward by making the best of whatever skills/length/shooting/hustle he has.  

We don't currently have best players cause we are not a good team yet.  We have been a collection of misfits, but with Ellensen, Kennard and Bradley, maybe SJ, I believe that era is done, if we can build on what we have consistently and consistently push forward, like we saw the Going To Work boys do.  We need players who make others around them better, cause we will not get a superstar till we tank.  

Ironically though, the Going To Work boys did it without a superstar, but we had superwills in Ben and Chauncey.  You just knew they were building something, even when it wasn't obvious.  Sheed capped it off, but Ben and Chauncey and Rip pushed it near the mountaintop, though none of them was as talented as sheed.

The playoff push begins in a few weeks, and in some ways it has already begun.
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DX Really

Post  WTF on Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:01 pm

DX wrote:Some strong arguments have been made regarding who's the best players on the Pistons and at the end of the day, what's the value of being the best. There's been some campaigning for certain players, like popularity will win games, but compatible fit for a starting unit is never really, honestly, discussed. Why?

Okay DX I'm calling foul on this comment.  I would like to think that none of here are casual fans that want to see players getting PT just because we like them.  For the most part it's that cursed word "Potential"  sometimes over stated sometimes under estimated.   I'm always talking fit and rarely touting stats and athleticism.   

Sometimes we see what see and it's a clear as day.  IMO nothing on this team really fits
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There appears to be some confusion...

Post  Oracle on Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:46 pm

deusXango wrote:Some strong arguments have been made regarding who's the best players on the Pistons and at the end of the day, what's the value of being the best. There's been some campaigning for certain players, like popularity will win games, but compatible fit for a starting unit is never really, honestly, discussed. Why? That's only partially true! One thing that seems to keep escaping people is that there is a difference between TALENT and PERFORMANCE(results). Reggie and Drummond are by far the most talented, however, their flaws limit, not only their own results, but the results of the team.

Stan Van Gundy as the head of the Pistons basketball concern has been a middling failure on all levels, but he gets what amounts to a free pass on shortcoming after shortcoming. On a lot of levels, he's a clone of Joe Dumars, during his days of decline. He's viewed as a great coach(I bought this when he first came, but he's shown absolutely no evidence of being even a good coach, IMO), but that would have to be based on a distant past...what have you done for me/us lately? He's sucked as a front office administrator, by fixing sh!t that wasn't broken, as a coach, that's responsible for putting together a coaching staff, and allowing pride & ego to make some fu@ked up decisions in offensive/defensive strategies, by playing the wrong players out of position and out of place. I place Drummonds lackadaisical play, and Reggie's selfish, ball hogging play directly on SVG, not Gores! - Absolutely, that's where the problems begin and end. IMO, SVG encourages bad behavior on the court and his offense does nothing to discourage it. Our reward for becoming a team that moved the ball, beat damn near everybody in sight, was to get Reggie back to gum up the works... season over!

What Tom Gores has  done is permit the inmates to run the asylum (in undeveloped, wet behind the ears, jackass shouldn't be the face of the franchise), and allowed SVG to spend his money like a drunken sailor (apologies to the Navy men). If you're going to be bosom buddies with a player, let that player be a proven superstar, after all you are a billionaire owner and should be concerned with the company you keep. It's your money, but did you earn this money by allowing your trusted underlings to operate without fiscal accountability? With what's being presented to the Pistons fans, why don't you call the executive shots and coach the damn team? It's yours and couldn't be more fu@ked up if you did!

I keep Reggie in my sights because he's a b!tch style player(so true), IMHO, and is way overrated by the local media and that 2015-16 season has poisoned the reasoning faculties of fans; that's what happens when you're passionate about the home team and stand to close to the bullsh!t. No one notices that he should've averaged 20+ points, as much as he ball hogs, but forgets that he ain't he first PG that we've had that could successfully run the P & R with Drummond. Hell, as recently as the beginning of last year, Ish ran it as well as getting others involved in the offence; Drummond had began to become more "engaged" and the 20/20 games (with some stellar defense) began to consistently pile up...that's when Reggie decided to hobble his selfish ass back on the floor and totally disrupt the chemistry the team had began to develop, along with a winning record. I won't get behind a player that puts personal glory ahead of his health and the teams chances of competing. What do we really think the players only meeting was about? Why did he need assurances from SVG that he wouldn't be traded when the Rubio trade was leaked? Isn't this a business where players are traded everyday?
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