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Are any of these statements controversial?

Post  Sparma on Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:22 pm

1) SVG knows that Harris is a better player than Leuer (which I infer partly from what follows).
2) The best five players don't always start. There can be good reason to bring a John Havlicek off the bench, even though he's clearly one of your top 5 players.
3) Harris played significantly more minutes per game than Leuer last season (31.3 to 25.9) and was clearly the more productive player of the two.
4) Eyeballing the numbers (rather than getting out the calculator), it looks like while Harris averaged more minutes per game a couple of seasons but he never totaled as many minutes as he played last season.

Next a factual claim that I'm not quite sure how to check:
5) Neither Harris's minutes nor his points declined when he moved to the bench.

Also, what I regard as a couple of pretty safe predictions:
6) Harris will start at SF this year, whereas the PF will be more of a bone of contention, with Leuer likely doing more sharing of that forward spot than Harris will at his.
7) Barring injury, Harris will earn more minutes than Leuer again this season, reflecting SVG's respective evaluations of the two.

If those statements are true/ probable/ likely to become true, then it's not clear to me why SVG's respective use of Harris and Leuer last season has been a such recurrent point of complaint (by Deus at least).
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Tell me

Post  deusXango on Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:54 pm

Murph wrote:If Eric Moreland can start at PF, after playing 11 games in the NBA then great.  If Henry Ellenson can start at PF, after playing 19 games in the NBA then great.  If Stanley Johnson can start at SF after shooting 37% from the floor in the NBA the last 2 seasons then great.  But until I see it with my own eyes, I am skeptical.

And I'm guessing Ricky Rubio's career 38% FG percentage would get old in the D pretty fast.
Murph, you have every reason to be skeptical because I am skeptical that SVG can coach the talent that he's just assembled. Ricky Rubio is easily the smartest, most selfless passer, and defender of the two PG's being discussed and his FG percentage wouldn't look as bad once he started to get the entire team involved in the offense. Tell me, do you feel Reggie is a better prospect at PG than Ricky? I think it would be great if Reggie passed the ball to Harris, Bradley, or any other 3 point shooters on the floor with him early in the shot clock, but I'm skeptical he will.

Tell me Murph, do you feel that Jon Leuer is the best option for the Pistons starting PF? I know SVG sees Leuer as a starter, but many fans and media members don't; enlighten me with a reasonable argument for Leuer starting over players like Ellenson or Moreland, other than they're unknown and as yet, untested commodity's. PF is our weakest link, but we're strong at SF candidates is the reason I'm not for Stanley Johnson starting this year, but I'm all for giving him consistent PT.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:04 pm

cool breeze wrote:
Murph wrote:If Eric Moreland can start at PF, after playing 11 games in the NBA then great.  If Henry Ellenson can start at PF, after playing 19 games in the NBA then great.  If Stanley Johnson can start at SF after shooting 37% from the floor in the NBA the last 2 seasons then great.  But until I see it with my own eyes, I am skeptical.

And I'm guessing Ricky Rubio's career 38% FG percentage would get old in the D pretty fast.

Murph you might be right to be skeptical. But after watching slackers, especially one who makes over $20M/Y fail to put up any resistance in the first and 3rd quarters of almost every game in the last half of the season on defense while being brain dead statues on offense, perhaps some fans are tired of the spin provided by Stan Van Gundy.

Did the exit interview go like this? Oh please Andre will you just be a tiny bit more engaged in the games next season. Tom told me to be aware of your sensitivity relating to criticism and it was my fault that I didn't hook you up with an oxygen knowing that you couldn't breath through your nose before your surgery. Next year just play the way you feel big guy. If you don't feel really great than continue to slack off.

SVG sure is a tough coach for the players who have the largest contracts. Shouldn't the standards be higher instead of lower for the big money players on the Piston team? The bottom line is that some long time Piston fans who watched successful Piston teams know the difference from real committed players to slackers. If this is SVG's last year of employment for the Pistons he should reflect on his action or inaction last season. If he goes out why not go out swinging and be a real coach who can and does make game time adjustments and scrap the 1 in 4 out Andre Drummond offense. The offense is designed to make AD a All Star based on meaningless stats. He is not a natural offensive star. But he could be a defensive star if the coach benched him when he decides to be a slacker. Fans should shout out to Andre whenever they see him with that blank look on his face. His energy clearly shows that he is not engaged for the benefit of his teammates. We know how hard Bill Laimbeer played and the guts Ben Wallace showed as a rim protector for his teammates. Fans want more. And that is why it was suggested that guys like Moreland ( who does know the defensive rotation system and does get to the right spots on the floor and does help his teammates on defense) show off his hard nosed play. Fans are tired of having a soft coach and welcome something different even if the team loses some games until the young guns get their feet wet. We already know AD's game and it is very dull to watch most of the time.  

I didn't proof read this Murph and didn't complete the sentence with the idea that maybe the coach apologized to AD for not providing him with an oxygen tank in the first and third quarters of every game in the last half of the season. Strap him up Stan. Funny but I have been a marathon runner for many years and didn't know that you couldn't breath out of your mouth when playing basketball.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:58 pm

Murph wrote:If Eric Moreland can start at PF, after playing 11 games in the NBA then great.  If Henry Ellenson can start at PF, after playing 19 games in the NBA then great.  If Stanley Johnson can start at SF after shooting 37% from the floor in the NBA the last 2 seasons then great.  But until I see it with my own eyes, I am skeptical.

And I'm guessing Ricky Rubio's career 38% FG percentage would get old in the D pretty fast.

Murph you might be right to be skeptical. But after watching slackers, especially one who makes over $20M/Y fail to put up any resistance in the first and 3rd quarters of almost every game in the last half of the season on defense while being brain dead statues on offense, perhaps some fans are tired of the spin provided by Stan Van Gundy.

Did the exit interview go like this? Oh please Andre will you just be a tiny bit more engaged in the games next season. Tom told me to be aware of your sensitivity relating to criticism and it was my fault that I didn't hook you up with an oxygen knowing that you couldn't breath through your nose before your surgery. Next year just play the way you feel big guy. If you don't feel really great than continue to slack off.

SVG sure is a tough coach for the players who have the largest contracts. Shouldn't the standards be higher instead of lower for the big money players on the Piston team? The bottom line is that some long time Piston fans who watched successful Piston teams know the difference from real committed players to slackers. If this is SVG's last year of employment for the Pistons he should reflect on his action or inaction last season. If he goes out why not go out swinging and be a real coach who can and does make game time adjustments and scrap the 1 in 4 out Andre Drummond offense. The offense is designed to make AD a All Star based on meaningless stats. He is not a natural offensive star. But he could be a defensive star if the coach benched him when he decides to be a slacker. Fans should shout out to Andre whenever they see him with that blank look on his face. His energy clearly shows that he is not engaged for the benefit of his teammates. We know how hard Bill Laimbeer played and the guts Ben Wallace showed as a rim protector for his teammates. Fans want more. And that is why it was suggested that guys like Moreland ( who does know the defensive rotation system and does get to the right spots on the floor and does help his teammates on defense) show off his hard nosed play. Fans are tired of having a soft coach and welcome something different even if the team loses some games until the young guns get their feet wet. We already know AD's game and it is very dull to watch most of the time.

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Show Me

Post  Murph on Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:41 pm

If Eric Moreland can start at PF, after playing 11 games in the NBA then great. If Henry Ellenson can start at PF, after playing 19 games in the NBA then great. If Stanley Johnson can start at SF after shooting 37% from the floor in the NBA the last 2 seasons then great. But until I see it with my own eyes, I am skeptical.

And I'm guessing Ricky Rubio's career 38% FG percentage would get old in the D pretty fast.
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Ridiculous or Not

Post  BallinD on Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:49 am

deusXango wrote: If we can break the spell SVG has cast over us... If I'm allowed to suggest something ridiculous, how about this, start Eric Moreland at PF, with Drummond (center) and Harris (SF)...this team needs interior defense to balance the perimeter defense we've acquired in Bradley. Give Harris the "green light" to go with our famed P & R, and allow Bradley to get his touches, and we've got all the offense we need, in the starting lineup, but where is that dogged energy, intelligent P & R defense, shot blocking and rim protection in general going to come from, if not from a Moreland? This is my ridiculous starting lineup. No Leuer or Johnson in the starting lineup.

DX, I too have wondered if we can plug Moreland into the lineup to supplement what Dre does not do as a big man and provide some interior D, but worry it would clog the middle without a transcendant PG and Weggie is not that. It is one possible permutation and by all accounts and videos, Moreland would provide the energy, length and aggression we need, assuming Drummond's new magic nose won't elevate his game.

Shooting would be the rub, but Bradley, RJax could offer a 3-ball banquet and we still can sub in and sub out 3pt shooters like Bullock, Kennard, Galloway, if SVG really plans to use his roster effectively. Ellensen needs to get some burn with Kennard and SJ so we can know if we have a young core on the outside pushing in.

I'm kinda from Missouri, along with Lemonpen. Right now we don't know jack about how this thing will come together, or if it will, and don't know if SVG will not revert to Master of Panic status and reprise his role as Stupid Van Gundy. Lottsa questions and why I say this idea has merit as a wait and see.

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Jon Leuer and the Detroit Pistons

Post  deusXango on Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:36 pm

"Versatility is great, and nobody on the team is more versatile than Harris (offensively, at least). But it’d be nice if Van Gundy was trying to build a team around Harris’ strengths instead of trying to fit Harris’ diverse skillset into the gaps on a flawed roster."-DBB

If we can break the spell SVG has cast over us, the answer is clear, we have a team that's being built around Jon Leuer! SVG has said on several occasions that he "see Leuer as a starter," in spite of the absence of any supporting evidence; Harris stands in Leuer's way to become the face of the Pistons. Harris, not Morris as many suspected, was replaced by Leuer in the starting lineup and the weak ass excuse given was, "we weren't scoring enough points" when Reggie returned to the starting lineup. No one seemed to notice that we scored less with Leuer as a starter, but Harris remained consistent and productive as he assumed the role Leuer was signed to fill.

Henry Ellenson will always be too weak or defensive deficient or too funky or some such nonsense to be excluded from consideration for the starting PF. The fact that's being hidden from fans at large is Ellenson has a monstrous offensive game (passing, ball handling, post scoring, rebounding) and the only way he'll ever learn the defensive side of the game is by playing it. The elimination from contention by the coach, in favor of installing a personal favorite on a lottery team, is chicken sh!t. Wake the fu@k up SVG!

The magical 3 ball rears its ugly head, conveniently, when a case is to be made against a player, but if a three pointer, energy, and grit is what it takes, Anthony Tolliver, who's at the end of his career, is a better bet to start than Jon Leuer and we all know that's ridiculous, but it makes more sense on a number of levels. If I'm allowed to suggest something ridiculous, how about this, start Eric Moreland at PF, with Drummond (center) and Harris (SF)...this team needs interior defense to balance the perimeter defense we've acquired in Bradley. Give Harris the "green light" to go with our famed P & R, and allow Bradley to get his touches, and we've got all the offense we need, in the starting lineup, but where is that dogged energy, intelligent P & R defense, shot blocking and rim protection in general going to come from, if not from a Moreland? This is my ridiculous starting lineup. No Leuer or Johnson in the starting lineup.

One last unanswered question; why wasn't the Reggie Jackson for Ricky Rubio trade not consummated, and why did SVG kiss Reggie's ass when it was leaked? Everybody and their mama is talking about that knee that's never going to get better (barring a miracle) and even if it does, it's not going to make Reggie play a less selfish game. It just came to mind, what would a backcourt of Rubio and Bradley look like going into this season?
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All Is Well

Post  WTF on Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:57 pm

Relocated to AZ a few months back and still getting acclimated and settling in still. I haven't had much time to post and before I part before season end the team sucked to high hogs.

Nothing much has change with the team still a lot of the old forum discussions being rekindle mainly is SVG qualified? Is Reggie enough? Can we win with AD? NO! would be the answer to all three questions.

I had some time on my hands today so I wanted to pop in, miss you guys
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What The Fu@k??!!

Post  deusXango on Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:47 pm

Wise, my man, it's good to see you back on forum, you've been missed by all...hell yeah, I'm speaking for all! Your contributions during this "Summer of Surprise" would certainly have added to the quality of discussions. I'm trusting all has been well for you.

"Independent of Jackson’s health, he can certainly make strides as a passer. After averaging 14.7 assists per 100 possessions after his initial trade to the Pistons in 2015, he’s averaged just 10 per 100 possessions the past two years.

The Pistons were 28th in the league in assist percentage last season at 53 percent, a figure that dropped to 51.2 percent when Jackson stepped on the floor. Jackson wasn’t a boon to ball movement when he was on the floor in previous seasons either, but he’s capable of it. We saw flashes of it in his early days in a Pistons uniform.

Jackson is certainly capable of generating decent looks for himself while attacking the rim. But his willingness to use that ability to generate even better shots for his teammates will do plenty for both his and his team’s effectiveness on offense. And that’s something entirely within his control."
-DBB

Did Reggie's ability to see his teammates open leave before his knee went out? A drop off of 4.7 assists per 100 possessions is a sobering statistic for, what some are calling a potential All-Star PG, particularly considering his scoring average didn't reflect any compensation for that drop in team oriented production. This is a bad posture for a ball dominate PG and even if he has a total return to physical health, what will his willingness to be a team first player be like? Will he come out the gate trying to prove he can get to the rim and score? Will proving his scoring average can be what it was two years ago take president over incorporating Bradley, Harris, and Johnson/Leuer in the offense and giving Kennard the opportunity to develop? Will SVG let him get away with that sh!t?

I've taken the shine off your welcome return Wise, but you know how I am...I meant no harm.
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Kennard and The Future

Post  BallinD on Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:19 pm

I too am stoked about Kid Kennard, and you're right, he's not a kid. His poise, fluidity and offensive IQ appear to be solid, if not stellar, call me a homer, but I liked this pick and I like it even more now. He gives us the real opportunity, along with Bradley to move the ball in the flow of the offense without having to stand around and watch Weggie try to manufacture a shot.

I don't know what Galloway brings, but I really wanna see a lot of Kennard this year, another test for SVG's rotations and ability to deploy players situationally and use matchups, develop the younguns, especially because we have no idea if we can keep Bradley moving forward.

My question is do I wanna see Tobias SF, Leuer/Ellensen at PF or SJ at SF and Tobias at the 4?
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Luke Kennard Still Playing Catch Up

Post  WTF on Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:00 pm

I think I like!

Okay here's are some things I like and I think I'm seeing with this player. I won't dare call him a kid (I like that he's 21 already)

1st I think this guy has some PG skills in him so I would love to see him on the floor with Bradley, next arguably can be considered an actual shooter so Thank God KCP no longer here and SVG can stop forcing that role on to him. Kennard fits unlike KCP.


Kennard seems more Athletic and Quicker offensively than KCP here why or what I think I'm seeing in Kennard that I didn't see with KCP or SJ for that matter. Kennard has form on his shot, his movement seems fluid and effortless, surprisingly he has hops not the greatest but seem to know when and how to attack the rim. I don't see him giving SVG many headaches offensively at least, defensively I can't say for certain but I can already see that Kennard's IQ is light years beyond both KCP and SJ so I wouldn't worry about him to much defensively, because I doubt we'll him blowing coverage assignments.

I like this pick for now. tb
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SVG IS A BONEHEAD

Post  WTF on Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:50 am

deusXango wrote:HELL TO THE NAW!! He's supposed to be a winner (no matter what), but he's not. Unimaginative, slow-witted, stubborn, spineless (what else do you call someone who allows their legacy to be intimidated down the drain by a group of unproven like, Gores, Drummond, and Jackson?), and biased. A master sh!t talker, but sucks as a coach, here and now!

Truer words could not have been written DX, but the most disturbibg one is stubborn SVG believes his **** doesn't stink but a coach really proves his worth when he can coach talent up, when he can make the players on the roster better my utilizng the players natural given talents and skill set. Stubborn is when you consistently try turning them into things they'll likely never become to run a system not designed for them. SVG keep reading his old press clippings as well.
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Just Catching Up

Post  WTF on Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:36 am

Morris!!!!!!

Not sure how I feel about this move and what it does to the team collectively. IMO Morrs held this team together for what it was worth more than unhinging it.

Hard to be upset with what we got back in return for Morris but not much is going to matter until we address the obvious 2 issues on the roster and that's both AD and Reggie.
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WTF!!!

Post  Sparma on Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:21 am

Good to hear from you!

KCP faces an uncertain future. Will LeBron (shared agent) join him in LA? Will he get bumped because LeBron or another big FA's coming to LA? Not how I saw things unfolding.

WTF wrote:Well, well.......

So KCP is a Laker on a one year deal at that and I say good for KCP he may get inspired by the Ghost of Kobe Past..... What can't happen is that he does not progress as a player.

It's obvious the Lakers and KCP have doubts on if this pans out or not that's why its only a 1 year deal but kudos to the Pistons for not giving up a max deal to a player that doesn't fit and may never fit.

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Tons To Catch Up On

Post  WTF on Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:04 am

Well, well.......

So KCP is a Laker on a one year deal at that and I say good for KCP he may get inspired by the Ghost of Kobe Past..... What can't happen is that he does not progress as a player.

It's obvious the Lakers and KCP have doubts on if this pans out or not that's why its only a 1 year deal but kudos to the Pistons for not giving up a max deal to a player that doesn't fit and may never fit.

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"Has Coach Stan Van Gundy Lived Up To His Hype?"

Post  deusXango on Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:43 am

HELL TO THE NAW!! He's supposed to be a winner (no matter what), but he's not. Unimaginative, slow-witted, stubborn, spineless (what else do you call someone who allows their legacy to be intimidated down the drain by a group of unproven like, Gores, Drummond, and Jackson?), and biased. A master sh!t talker, but sucks as a coach, here and now!
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SVG

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:52 pm

lol about Stan's lack of EQ, although maybe I shouldn't be. I agree he reacted badly to the players' meeting. There's something sub-optimal going on with him as a coach, but I'm not sure what it is. He's been a disappointment in that department, for sure. Setting aside the sensitive issue of the possible impact of race (most NBA coaches are white, most players black), I think that SVG being a roly poly guy of minimal basketball achievement as player compared to the guys he's trying to coach can't help. I thought he'd cut back on some of the master of panic stuff, but his residual histrionics can't help. There seems to be a significant communication barrier, even though SVG's an articulate guy.

With you, Ballin, I'm still inclined to think things take a turn for the better this year. And, for reasons I can't really articulate, I think Stan's improved coaching is going to be part of the mix. Surely, it's a good time to learn when things have gotten out of hand and your gig may be about up?


BallinD wrote:Sparma, I agree that SVG is Smart, Pragmatic, Employs Analytics, and may be a prisoner of his success.  Smart, but stubborn and slow to react to changing conditions, lack of creative fluidity to draw up good plays.

But he is driven.  Driven is good, but when it leads to the other side of the coin, which is yelling and shouting it seems the IQ is better than the EQ or emotional intelligence.

With low EQ, Stan will fit well with the also ran category, because it takes a certain calm in the storm mentality to weather an NBA season and playoff run.  His frenetic frenzy "Master of Panic" drive appears to mitigate what his smarts and drive produce in success.

An example of Smart, but Emotionally Unintelligent (Low EQ) was his handling of the player's only meeting, which he publicly ridiculed.  Equally low EQ was his shoving Reggie back into the lineup to kill a building chemistry and team that was beginning to gel (High EQ would have seen this clearly), which in turn led to the player's only meeting.  Shooting yourself in the foot, Stan.

Reggie's dribbling the air out of the ball? I really doubt SVG liked that. What he liked what having a reliable pick-and-roll the preceding season with Reggie and Dre as the axis, sufficiently dynamic to lead to great improvement and a spot in the playoffs. The other was an unfortunate accompanying characteristic that he was willing to put up with, because of the Reggie/ AD results in 2015-16, and also because he needed to walk on eggshells around those two. I don't see any great inconsistency, even if there some ineffectual coaching. He knows. Yes, he may know, but by walking on eggshells around those two, as you say, he is clearly picking favorites and again displaying low EQ.  That is the true inconsistency.

Perhaps with the grating style and barging himself into a team chemistry issue, and clearly playing favorites, it was inevitable the team would not rally, but slump as the season reached its closing month.  None of his favorites balled out for old SVG.  Nope, the only player who showed any outstanding effort was Boban, poor Boban who SVG refused to play most of the season.

It seemed he lost the team down the stretch, though they played the string out.  Tobias Harris said the issue was "chemistry." which is definitely affected by low EQ behaviors.  I agree he is a better GM than coach, as most of your complementary statements are in the realm of GM activities.
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Leuer

Post  Murph on Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:45 am

I'm not a big Jon Leuer fan, but I can't for the life of me figure out who should be starting at PF instead.  Henry Ellenson is only 20 years old, and only played in 19 games last year.  Maybe if he receives more playing time and develops, he will eventually step into the starting line-up this season, but I doubt if he's ready yet.  

Anthony Tolliver is a career journeyman and back-up.  I doubt if Tolliver's skill set has improved.  Eric Moreland is a refugee from the D-League.  And Tobias Harris is much better suited to be a 3, not a 4; Harris should be our starting SF for the foreseeable future.

Initially, I wanted the Pistons to sign a veteran, defensive PF, such as Serge Ibaka in the off season.  But the Pistons didn't even have enough money to re-sign KCP, let alone add a big contract like it would have taken to land Ibaka.

So until Ellenson is ready to start, we're left with Leuer by default. The good news is, once SVG finds a real starting PF, Leuer will be a very serviceable, if expensive, back-up.
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SVG

Post  BallinD on Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:37 pm

Sparma, I agree that SVG is Smart, Pragmatic, Employs Analytics, and may be a prisoner of his success.  Smart, but stubborn and slow to react to changing conditions, lack of creative fluidity to draw up good plays.

But he is driven.  Driven is good, but when it leads to the other side of the coin, which is yelling and shouting it seems the IQ is better than the EQ or emotional intelligence.

With low EQ, Stan will fit well with the also ran category, because it takes a certain calm in the storm mentality to weather an NBA season and playoff run.  His frenetic frenzy "Master of Panic" drive appears to mitigate what his smarts and drive produce in success.

An example of Smart, but Emotionally Unintelligent (Low EQ) was his handling of the player's only meeting, which he publicly ridiculed.  Equally low EQ was his shoving Reggie back into the lineup to kill a building chemistry and team that was beginning to gel (High EQ would have seen this clearly), which in turn led to the player's only meeting.  Shooting yourself in the foot, Stan.

Reggie's dribbling the air out of the ball? I really doubt SVG liked that. What he liked what having a reliable pick-and-roll the preceding season with Reggie and Dre as the axis, sufficiently dynamic to lead to great improvement and a spot in the playoffs. The other was an unfortunate accompanying characteristic that he was willing to put up with, because of the Reggie/ AD results in 2015-16, and also because he needed to walk on eggshells around those two. I don't see any great inconsistency, even if there some ineffectual coaching. He knows. Yes, he may know, but by walking on eggshells around those two, as you say, he is clearly picking favorites and again displaying low EQ.  That is the true inconsistency.

Perhaps with the grating style and barging himself into a team chemistry issue, and clearly playing favorites, it was inevitable the team would not rally, but slump as the season reached its closing month.  None of his favorites balled out for old SVG.  Nope, the only player who showed any outstanding effort was Boban, poor Boban who SVG refused to play most of the season.

It seemed he lost the team down the stretch, though they played the string out.  Tobias Harris said the issue was "chemistry." which is definitely affected by low EQ behaviors.  I agree he is a better GM than coach, as most of your complementary statements are in the realm of GM activities.
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SVG

Post  Sparma on Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:32 pm

I agree, BallinD, that SVG the Coach and SVG the GM can be in tension.
Beyond that, we seem to see things a bit differently, which is fine of course.

Concerning SVG, I'm inclined to operate with the following premises/ standing points of reference:
1) he's a smart guy, who has a decent sense of what he's doing.
2) he's got certain ideals he aims for.
3) he's pragmatic (as GM at least), consequently placing a great premium on information so as to be able to act quickly, seizing opportunities.
4) as GM, he places considerable emphasis on analytics.
5) he's been stung by his experiences in Orlando, and that affects his actions currently.
6) his GM and coaching dual role provides advantages to him, but comes paired with disadvantages too.
7) where he once was cutting edge, he can be a prisoner of his own success, becoming reactionary, especially on O.

All that said, a couple of comments on what you raise:
a) he wasn't entirely sincere regarding KCP. I think he was trying to encourage KCP, who improved the first half of the season, bearing in mind that maybe shooting 33% from 3 equals 50% from 2, so that he wants to encourage 3s. Paraphrasing he might have meant something like: if he can keep shooting 35%, I'm willing to live with some bad shots (I don't recall him saying that type of thing to Josh S., who shot at a percentage where you wouldn't want him to hoist it up). But he did care, and probably wanted better shooting from his SG. Witness what happened in the offseason.

Reggie's dribbling the air out of the ball? I really doubt SVG liked that. What he liked what having a reliable pick-and-roll the preceding season with Reggie and Dre as the axis, sufficiently dynamic to lead to great improvement and a spot in the playoffs. The other was an unfortunate accompanying characteristic that he was willing to put up with, because of the Reggie/ AD results in 2015-16, and also because he needed to walk on eggshells around those two. I don't see any great inconsistency, even if there some ineffectual coaching. He knows.

He also knows about the inefficiency of the long 2 pointer, if only because of his commitment to analytics. That's a puzzler. Maybe it has to do with the players he has? When I watched, I remember that Kyle Singler (who turned out to be a marginal NBA player) did a nice job not only of cutting to the basket but also popping from the corner.

Something SVG's learned, to his chagrin, is that it's a player's league. (Incidentally, I think he'd be heralded as an outstanding college coach; maybe that's something we'll see post-Detroit, if his health doesn't collapse completely.) He did two things to address that post-Orlando/ Superman: he got a longterm contract and he got front office clout. Surprisingly to me, neither's resulted in his vision being implemented on the court though. Maybe this year's team will be more pliable to his vision? I'm guessing, for instance, that Kennard will be happy to shoot from the corner, for the high percentage 3.

Good point about SVG undervaluing the pass that leads to the good shot.

BallinD wrote:Agreeing with you on this one, but I would like to raise up the caveat, if I may.  I think much is blurred, but Stan the GM and Stan the Coach appear to operate at cross purposes.

He wants shooting; True.  GM SVG absolutely does, and I respect that, though IMHO, he underestimates or ignores the need for passing to set up the "better shot."

He has been quoted as saying, for example, in the case of KCP, (a gunner/scorer not a shooter) that he does not really mind the wild shots KCP took, even when shots were contested and not in the rhythm of the offense, he said it did not really bother him when KCP (and presumably others) took contested, high-degree of difficulty shots.  

Along the same lines, he did not seem to mind that Weggie dribbled the air out of the ball then passed it off as the shot clock wound down, resulting in a highly-contested Marcus Morris long two pointer (one of the worst shots in basketball).  He did not appear to draw up plays for corner threes very much, one of the most efficient shots in basketball.

Results: Quite probably we were the worst shooting team in the league.  Dropoffs in shooting % almost across the entire rotation.

So Stan the GM wants good shooters, but Stan the coach is too (lazy, distracted, incompetent) to draw up plays for those shooters to get good shots, allows Weggie to go all Heroball Z, allows Dre to post up for his errant hook shots, does not appear to advocate swinging the ball from side to side, players who cut to the basket, perhaps because his one-trick-pony P&R scheme as Coach is all he's got as LemonPen so eloquently stated.  I don't know.  WDYT?

Lemonpen: Weggie is an unmitigated ball hog, prone to go it alone against all odds. That is until he reaches the defensive end of the floor for a "well deserved rest".

Dre is nothing more than a gold plated blunt instrument, a universal tool used for simple tasks. Opposing guards shall continue salivating at the prospect of engaging him mano e mano. Can't you hear their thoughts; clear out / level Dre off / vroom / LAYUP !!!!.

SVG is akin to a plough horse wearing oversize blinders, treading trodden trails.

No need to look further. Our fate lies squarely in their hands. Roster upgrades remain useless until permitted to become fully engaged.
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Sparma On SVG

Post  BallinD on Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:52 pm

Agreeing with you on this one, but I would like to raise up the caveat, if I may.  I think much is blurred, but Stan the GM and Stan the Coach appear to operate at cross purposes.

He wants shooting; True.  GM SVG absolutely does, and I respect that, though IMHO, he underestimates or ignores the need for passing to set up the "better shot."

He has been quoted as saying, for example, in the case of KCP, (a gunner/scorer not a shooter) that he does not really mind the wild shots KCP took, even when shots were contested and not in the rhythm of the offense, he said it did not really bother him when KCP (and presumably others) took contested, high-degree of difficulty shots.  

Along the same lines, he did not seem to mind that Weggie dribbled the air out of the ball then passed it off as the shot clock wound down, resulting in a highly-contested Marcus Morris long two pointer (one of the worst shots in basketball).  He did not appear to draw up plays for corner threes very much, one of the most efficient shots in basketball.

Results: Quite probably we were the worst shooting team in the league. Dropoffs in shooting % almost across the entire rotation.

So Stan the GM wants good shooters, but Stan the coach is too (lazy, distracted, incompetent) to draw up plays for those shooters to get good shots, allows Weggie to go all Heroball Z, allows Dre to post up for his errant hook shots, does not appear to advocate swinging the ball from side to side, players who cut to the basket, perhaps because his one-trick-pony P&R scheme as Coach is all he's got as LemonPen so eloquently stated.  I don't know.  WDYT?

Lemonpen: Weggie is an unmitigated ball hog, prone to go it alone against all odds. That is until he reaches the defensive end of the floor for a "well deserved rest".

Dre is nothing more than a gold plated blunt instrument, a universal tool used for simple tasks. Opposing guards shall continue salivating at the prospect of engaging him mano e mano. Can't you hear their thoughts; clear out / level Dre off / vroom / LAYUP !!!!.

SVG is akin to a plough horse wearing oversize blinders, treading trodden trails.

No need to look further. Our fate lies squarely in their hands. Roster upgrades remain useless until permitted to become fully engaged.


Last edited by BallinD on Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add)
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SVG/ BallinD

Post  Sparma on Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:56 pm

I also wish Brandon Jennings well. He had a heck of a run before getting injured.

Relatedly, I'll venture some controversial praise for SVG. Back when I was watching the games religiously, I thought SVG was off to a great start as coach when Brandon Jennings (playing his best basketball?), DJ Augustin (playing his best basketball), and the newly acquired Reggie (playing his best basketball to that point) all stepped in and played very well at PG. Surely the much criticized SVG deserved some coaching credit for that?

BallinD writes: "By way of comparing what he's said and what he does, I see no real pattern to his way, other than stubbornly going down one road and insisting it is the right one, only to bump his head and insist he went down the right road, but then he correctly reacted to the bump that so many others could see coming."

I do see that one differently, although I recognize what you're saying. I think there's a pattern to what SVG wants (shooting, D, a certain kind of O), but he needs to say the right thing as he attempts to move in the direction of his vision. Not following something like the Process, his movement in the direction of what he wants can be herky-jerky. Qua coach, SVG needs to build players up, but qua GM he's got to be at the ready to move on. Monroe was praised, but then left for nothing. Same with KCP. A variant on the theme: SVG talks of how hard it was to trade Morris, but I'm not convinced that part of him didn't welcome the prospect of a calmer locker room. Reggie's all that, until he's asked to sit down, much to Reggie's fury, in what looks like a recognition of a problem, albeit presented rhetorically as concern for Reggie. Next on the docket: Reggie's health and happiness is said to be pivotal to the team, which it is in the current configuration, but I think Stan's ready to turn on the dime if things don't pan out partway through the season.

I guess I'm saying it's a case of actions speaking louder than words. Compared to most coaches, Slick Stan the English major's quite a rhetorician.
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RIP Brandon Jennings NBA Player

Post  BallinD on Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:42 pm

Our very own Brandon Jennings, who left his heart and achilles on the floor for the Pistons is gone to China in an attempt to resurrect his career and get his mojo back. Good Luck Young Fella! guitar
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Is Stan Van Gundy trying to do the same thing Larry Brown tried years ago? Is he trying to get fired before the season even starts?

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:56 pm

Some good observations by posters today. I keep wondering what roster players other than AD and RJ are thinking as training camp moves closer. Those players are actually going to experience the continuing dysfunctional it seems. The gestures of Reggie Jackson are still there. SVG's sobering outlandish comments are still there including his comments lately on Leuer playing more center and how SVG thinks of him as a starter? Who else has ever thought of Leuer as an NBA starting power forward? The Suns coaching staff didn't. Who actually believes what SVG says but maybe Jeff Bower and his assistant coaches? Leuer will now be played more at the center position when he was dominated in the last Piston game playing power forward. He is not strong enough to guard power forwards but now can handle centers? No this is the world according to Stan Van Gundy. He knows that the Leuer signing was a bad one but nobody will take his contract. Is he trying to intentionally show incompetence so the owner will fire while keeping the guaranteed money in his contract?

Maybe SVG wants to ruin this franchise because perhaps the owner called him too much last winter to reprimand Stan for saying things that hurt Andre's feelings. Will SVG increase the dysfunction next year to feature Andre's new mid range jump shot just to get back at the owner? Will he have Avery Bradley coming off the bench with Harris to increase the tension with the players? Will he send Kennard and Ellenson to the G league early on regardless of how they play? Will Stanley Johnson be the guy he blames everything on again. Maybe he will bitch out Stanley in front of the fans like he did last year. Best of all, will SVG turn his back on the hardwood after AD fails to box out giving up another easy put back while flopping his arms up and down yelling to the innocent players sitting on the bench. Maybe he tells the bench guys that they were not hooping it up enough in pre game when Andre was dancing. The Pistons were as close to a circus act last season as you can get. I see few signs of any change. This will be the RJ and AD show again plan and simple. It will be dull. It will be boring. But the fans will see a few dunks now and then.

Do you think if SVG says that Leuer is a starter enough times, most fans will believe him? How about saying the Pistons are a top ten defense when they could never get stops in crunch time? There sure are a lot of creative stat people that can spin a good yarn. How can you have a top ten defensive team when two of your starters hate playing defense and always have hated that part of the game?

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No More Lip Service

Post  lemonpen on Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:08 pm

BallinD wrote:Sparma, I'm optimistic and have been for this reason.  There are plenty of fixes for what ailed us last year, but applying them requires seeing that they are fixes...SVG and his braintrust of coaches and advisors.

It is easy perhaps to see them from the perspective of seeing the forest and the trees, when you can step back from the thick of it and try to objectively analyze things.  To his detriment perhaps, it seems SVG and his slappies appear to be in the thick of it and trout out old tired GroupThink excuses and simplistic, non-nuanced solutions, such as we just need to defend better, we just need Weggie to be Healthy, or we need to shoot and make more threes.

The devil is in the details and in the desire to truly improve, not just prove my scheme works, my favorite players are really the best players, etc.

I do believe the stars could align and Bradley could bring a breath of fresh air with his style of play, Drummond will have more energy and fire, and Reggie will most of all have more energy and self awareness, Kennard will get minutes and his style of play and shooting will become infectious, and SJ will finally grow mentally into his man-sized body.

If SVG gets out of the way of organic growth and does not try to protect the feelings of his two annointed ones (Weggie and Dre) let the leadershhip emerge, that will certainly work.  But with so many slappies (in the media) encouraging him to double down on his scheme and buying and parroting his excuses and often simplistic solutions, it appears there is no pressure for him to pick the low-hanging fruit.

Consider the eye test.  This is what scares me.  Weggie interviewed after the Bradley presser, quietly bristled and flashed his me-first smirk when asked specifically if having a secondary ball handler like Bradley would take some of the pressure off him to create.  It was scary to see him saying one thing, but from his body language and facial microexpressions (there is a science behind reading microexpressions BTW), Weggie looked like he wanted to say, hey, I told you I'm back healthy and don't need no stinking help from a secondary ball handler!  I could be wrong, but that is what I read.  His persona is consistently one of the most disingenuous of any I have seen from a Piston in a long time.

On the other hand, Dre is so averse to any discussion of his flaws at any time, it seems like he is a 10-year old kid.  He will have tweet battles with fans suggesting he be traded and yet he says he knows it is just part of the business.  He does not inspire as someone who has grown up.  He talks about adding jumpers, but never about playing harder or being accountable to the team with his lethargy, behavior, or defense.

Yet some of the first words out of Bradley's mouth was he wants to help Detroit Win games and bring a "nasty style" of hard nosed defense, and he said it with conviction and fire, and others say that is his way, and we have seen that it is his way.

To me, these small telltales are as significant as SVG's bluster, the roster and the length of someone's arm wingspan or the height they measure out to.  

So yeah, I actually hope the stars align, I really do.  Leadership can do that if it is genuine. Bradley, Tolliver, and I believe SJ and Kennard will be advocates for playing the right way.  That is what I see in the alignment of the stars.

These boys can say anything they want. It'll only fall on deaf ears. I'm all about SHOW ME.
Until proven otherwise,

Weggie is an unmitigated ball hog, prone to go it alone against all odds. That is until he reaches the defensive end of the floor for a "well deserved rest".

Dre is nothing more than a gold plated blunt instrument, a universal tool used for simple tasks. Opposing guards shall continue salivating at the prospect of engaging him mano e mano. Can't you hear their thoughts; clear out / level Dre off / vroom / LAYUP !!!!.

SVG is akin to a plough horse wearing oversize blinders, treading trodden trails.

No need to look further. Our fate lies squarely in their hands. Roster upgrades remain useless until permitted to become fully engaged.
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