Same old Stuff...

[Oracle]

BULLOCK INJURED: Reggie Bullock has a sprained right foot and will miss tonight's game against the Knicks. He was in a walking boot during the team's morning shootaround at John Jay College. "He's not even sure what he did," Van Gundy said.

 Stanley Johnson walking away from his coach during a game last week against Phoenix to visible sparring with players.

These two keep doing the same stuff over and over, but I guess Bullock can't help being injury prone and Stanley can't stay out of trouble.

BTW, isn't this always the way SVG's teams always end up?

It was easy to blame Dwight Howard, but it's beginning to look like he wasn't the only problem.

[Oracle]

Screw the playoffs, it's all about getting the best possible draft pick at this point, and if we can get some experience for the young guys, I'm all for it!

Time to shut these guys down and get ready for the off season and NBA draft.

Thanks Drummonds. Get in better shape for next season.

Thanks M.Morris. Take care of those knees. Take A load off and come back better next season.

Thanks T.Harris. Do everything exactly like you did last summer. Come back even better next year as the 6th man of the year.

Reggie. Thanks for your first year and A half. IT was all star level play. Time to shut you down for the last 7 games because you have embarrassed yourself and your career this season. And your health issues are well documented.

If the Pistons plan to keep Pope. Shut him down also.

My starting 5 would be Ish, Bullock, Johnson, John Leuer, and Baynes. Next 5 would be The Euro PG, Bobain, Henry Ellinson, the other Rookies. If I need more help, I would call up guys from the D League.

[Phil-Good]

Time to shut these guys down and get ready for the off season and NBA draft.

Thanks Drummonds. Get in better shape for next season.

Thanks M.Morris. Take care of those knees. Take A load off and come back better next season.

Thanks T.Harris. Do everything exactly like you did last summer. Come back even better next year as the 6th man of the year.

Reggie. Thanks for your first year and A half. IT was all star level play. Time to shut you down for the last 7 games because you have embarrassed yourself and your career this season. And your health issues are well documented.

If the Pistons plan to keep Pope. Shut him down also.

My starting 5 would be Ish, Bullock, Johnson, John Leuer, and Baynes. Next 5 would be The Euro PG, Bobain, Henry Ellinson, the other Rookies. If I need more help, I would call up guys from the D League.

[Oracle]

Sorry Oracle you have no clue what in hell you are talking about relating to what impact a coach has in the NBA. I am friends with several former NBA coaches both assistant and head coaches. That is what they tell me Oracle.

[WTF]

Lets not all play crazy here we all know what we're all looking at not just with this team but across the league. The bar is so low I don't think many player can get beneath it and its sickening to watch most night.

What I don't get is how fans that fall in my generation seems ok with the state of the league and make excuses for it. This league needs saving again in a big way and fast.

The majority of these new fans wouldn't know what great basketball looks like.

[cool breeze]

Wise, Trey Burkes problem is exactly as you describe, if a coach can't see how to use you you're doomed to look bad until you can find a team running a system that works for you.

Don has never been right about this yet he keeps saying the same false things every time, using the WAY outlier cases of less than 0.1% of the league to describe the whole league.

Coaching is also the Pistons problem: It's not that SVG doesn't have the players he needs, it's that he doesn't use the players he has.

“I feel a responsibility in terms of play-calling, and also in terms of our teaching and our habits,” Van Gundy said while shaking his head. “We watched a lot of it today … it’s just a lot of details we’re not paying attention to in terms of spacing, screening, ball movement, things like that. When you don’t do those things and execute with energy and you don’t end up with quality shots.”

Van Gundy said the team spends 75-80% of practice time on defense. Despite some inconsistencies, the defense is sixth in points allowed in the NBA (102.2).

The offense, however, is bottom five.

“I don’t think I’ve done a good enough job, really hammering home execution, basic things in our offense,” Van Gundy said. “I have to take the responsibility for that.”

Players play within systems that are determined by the coach. Sometimes they can break the rules, but only if you're a superstar, otherwise you're likely to ride the pine for failure to execute the game plan.

The fact that SVG spend so little time on offense shows up in a major way. When the going gets tough, players fall back to the only thing they know. Something needs to happen so they go ISO because they don't have any plays from the coach, or in our case, it likely is the play the coach called.

IMO, SVG has it backwards, spend the most time on offense and slowly bring in the defensive principles over time if you're building a team to compete in 3-5 years. That's how the Bad Boys did it and that's how the 2004 team got there... offense first.

Sorry Oracle you have no clue what in hell you are talking about relating to what impact a coach has in the NBA. I am friends with several former NBA coaches both assistant and head coaches. That is what they tell me Oracle. But you know better so I just wish that you could get a job coaching in the NBA and see what it is like coaching players like Andre Drummond. He has an attention span of a fly relating to learning anything about playing the 5 man game. That is why he works on his hook shot over the summer. He needs to learn how to play with five players on defense and know the rotations and what his responsibilities are within the defense. He just can't get it. The game is too fast for him. Andre is such a good example of what happens when players come into the league and get great contracts before they learn how to play the game. Do you think that for one minute Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Zeke etc, would ever allow a guy like Drummond on their team. They know is not a coachable players and he will screw up the works. Players have to have some knowledge of how to play the game before they get to the NBA. Drummond is not alone. There are many like him who are confused to the point that they shut down. If there is a coach who can transform Andre Drummond you can bet that Stan Van Gundy would have hired that person. He hired a shooting coach and Andre refused to use him. Andre Knows better. He is more comfortable working his his guy. That sure has worked out well and that is Andre the guy who doesn't now that he doesn't know. Andre Drummond is a dunk machine. He was a dunk machine in high school but couldn't get a lot of playing time in college. Surprise surprise Piston fans we have a really good dunk machine. And he can stand and get rebounds too. Look at those amazing stats. How about his teammates like Smith who had to guard an opposing center not once because Andre didn't want to move over two feet to guard his man or thought it would be cool to switch at the worst possible moment. How do you coach that type of player???

[cool breeze]

Van Gundy said. "So, it becomes a vicious cycle. The idea of 'somebody's gotta step up,' well everybody has to step up, and we have to play the game better. But one guy trying to take over, I mean, for better or for worse, we're not built like that."
For the longest Van Gundy has given Reggie Jackson the green light to be the one guy to try and take over and the campaign to not trade him before/by the trade deadline was based on what he did last year as a one man wreaking crew. IMHO that was dumb sh!t.

This late in the season a hot news item is presented to Pistons fans; Pistons recall Ellenson from the D-League.....again. He has never been given decent minutes or a fair chance to grow/prove himself by Van Gundy; what makes anyone think this recent call-up will be any different? All the "reasons" given for not playing him all this season haven't changed. More dumb sh!t.

The group call for Drummonds departure because he's got such a low basketball I.Q. and lack of defensive play is totally ignoring the fact that Van Gundy has been his coach for the last 3 years (60 % his career), but the same voices say what a hell of a coach SVG is; Van Gundy dumped Sheed and "up graded" him with Aaron Gray, who's not a part of the Pistons winning tradition, nor an outstanding big man in his NBA career. The dumbest sh!t of all considering the contract he signed Drummond to.

Replacing Tobias Harris with Jon Leuer in the starting lineup; the teams leading scorer...the player who helped push us into the playoffs last year...the most consistent player in the starting lineup...WTF?! Neither Harris or Leuer are primary ball handlers, plus Leuer was signed to replace Anthony Tolliver off the bench...the way things have turned out, we could've kept Tolliver and replaced Harris with him in the starting lineup, if we were dead set on doing dumb sh!t.

No lie people, this is the most disappointing season I've witnessed in the last 10 years!! Joe's teams were obviously flawed and the coaches weren't supposed to win with the teams we had, hell, the coaches we had shouldn't have been coaching, but this guy! Unless you're sold on a snake oil salesman spinning fluff and slinging bullsh!t, you realize SVG has no business being President of the Pistons and trying to coach them also, that is, unless you have an appetite for dumb sh!t.

dX maybe telling any player that "THEY HAVE THE GREEN LIGHT" is not a smart thing to do. Remember he also told KCP that he had "THE GREEN LIGHT". Now SVG says the team is not built for one guy to take over a game. Then who does he tell players that they have "THE GREEN LIGHT"? All this team has is SHOOTERS or GUNNERS who look for their shot. Nobody is helping another player on offense or defense. It is all I am the man so get out of my way. Now the whole thing has exploded in a pill of crap. Do the Pistons actually practice at all? Do they practice setting screens and passing the ball from side to side and inside and out? Is it hey you just go out there and by the way you have the green light to shoot it anytime you want to. This is why KCP is launching those off balance 3 point shots against pressure. Maybe that is why Harris and Morris are now doing the same thing. Maybe just the fringe players are not told that they have the green light. Smith, Jackson, Morris, Harris, Drummond, Pope all have the green light. Maybe that is why I am now having a hard time staying awake watching this group of players? But I don't think that is the reason because this group of Pistons led by the $20 million dollar a year man are the dumbest group of defender any coach has ever put on the floor at one time. Everyone is on the coach. But I am on the President and the guy who picked this players in the first place. Someone mentioned Burke who is a heady type of point guard. How about Spencer Dinwiddie? He is a smart point guard. TJ McConnell was not even drafted and Philly wanted to keep him instead of Smith for good reason. He is a real point guard and would laugh at any coach that told him 'YOU HAVE THE GREEN LIGHT. Over the past losing streak this team has not been able to stop any team for any quarter. They are getting layups and 2nd and 3rd and 4th opportunities when they miss because the team leader keeps switching off his man in the paint. He guards nobody most of the time and has that dumb look on his face as if he has just had an accident in his pants. I believe Andre Drummond is not a coachable player. He has even ever been coachable so far so why do some fans believe any coach can get his up to speed on defense? We all need to move on and management needs to remove him from the team. He is a bigger problem than Reggie Jackson. His teammates know he just doesn't get it. He can't remember the game plan. He can't execute the game plan. No coach can change his mind unless they bring some electrical shock equipment into the locker room before the game starts.

Look at the way some of these college kids are playing in the tournament. Andre Drummond would have to sit on the bench on any of those teams. No college coach would trust him.

[WTF]

“I feel a responsibility in terms of play-calling, and also in terms of our teaching and our habits,” Van Gundy said while shaking his head. “We watched a lot of it today … it’s just a lot of details we’re not paying attention to in terms of spacing, screening, ball movement, things like that. When you don’t do those things and execute with energy and you don’t end up with quality shots.”

But when you read stuff like this you have to ask why players like Burke don't fully get a chance in the league. PG control all those things SVG is saying the team don't do well. Again we watched Burke do these things for 2 seasons at Michigan he looked like a pro doing them and we passed on the opportunity to get him this season.

I swear I get so confused by this when team know they need a quality traditional PG but keep picking up knuckleheads to run their offense.

[deusXango]

Van Gundy said. "So, it becomes a vicious cycle. The idea of 'somebody's gotta step up,' well everybody has to step up, and we have to play the game better. But one guy trying to take over, I mean, for better or for worse, we're not built like that."
For the longest Van Gundy has given Reggie Jackson the green light to be the one guy to try and take over and the campaign to not trade him before/by the trade deadline was based on what he did last year as a one man wreaking crew. IMHO that was dumb sh!t.

This late in the season a hot news item is presented to Pistons fans; Pistons recall Ellenson from the D-League.....again. He has never been given decent minutes or a fair chance to grow/prove himself by Van Gundy; what makes anyone think this recent call-up will be any different? All the "reasons" given for not playing him all this season haven't changed. More dumb sh!t.

The group call for Drummonds departure because he's got such a low basketball I.Q. and lack of defensive play is totally ignoring the fact that Van Gundy has been his coach for the last 3 years (60 % his career), but the same voices say what a hell of a coach SVG is; Van Gundy dumped Sheed and "up graded" him with Aaron Gray, who's not a part of the Pistons winning tradition, nor an outstanding big man in his NBA career. The dumbest sh!t of all considering the contract he signed Drummond to.

Replacing Tobias Harris with Jon Leuer in the starting lineup; the teams leading scorer...the player who helped push us into the playoffs last year...the most consistent player in the starting lineup...WTF?! Neither Harris or Leuer are primary ball handlers, plus Leuer was signed to replace Anthony Tolliver off the bench...the way things have turned out, we could've kept Tolliver and replaced Harris with him in the starting lineup, if we were dead set on doing dumb sh!t.

No lie people, this is the most disappointing season I've witnessed in the last 10 years!! Joe's teams were obviously flawed and the coaches weren't supposed to win with the teams we had, hell, the coaches we had shouldn't have been coaching, but this guy! Unless you're sold on a snake oil salesman spinning fluff and slinging bullsh!t, you realize SVG has no business being President of the Pistons and trying to coach them also, that is, unless you have an appetite for dumb sh!t.

[WTF]

SVG has been coaching too long in the NBA to be giving this excuse or any other for this matter. One would think that all his I's are dotted and all hie T's are crossed. He sounds like a rookie coach and that's a bad sign and a reason he should fire himself.

How do you not know how to prepare your team, use your roster correctly and call more than 2 plays during a course of a game. I just don't accept SVG BS explanation of things. Again this crap is coming from a coach who's been there and done that my guess is SVG is way over his head and too stubborn to admit it. I think SVG made some wrong decisions in personnel and can't admit it.

He should have bitten on the Rubio trade IMO, really he should have nevered signed him but he did knowing Jennings was better equipe to run this team but fear of Jennings injury got the best of him. If nothing else Jennings should be still a back up which is a far better option than Ish.

Stanley is a wasted pick what more can you say. Yes he was a feel good story and looked like a steal in the draft but we didn't need him and we should have used that pick on a PG.

Fire Sale? At least 3 changes need to occur within the starting 5 period!!!! Starting with both guard position but I would not be oppose to demoting Andre to coming off the bench if I can't move him.

[Oracle]

Not needed!

The Pistons simply need to make a few moves.

1. KCP: As Don continues to be wrong in saying the Pistons over value players, the real value is set by the market. Let KCP walk to free up cash and give him the opportunity to become a better player in a new system. I'm not sure if we can do a sign and trade if the team already has the money or has very little in the way of assets we can use unless a 3rd team was involved, but we'll see.

2. Stanley Johnson: Phillip, I too like the kid, but unlike Don, I look at the facts on the ground, and that tells me that he'll never work out here, and maybe not anywhere else either. His problems started in Summer League where he stunk up the joint and continued through this season. He'll never be a starting SF at his size and if he loses enough weight to ever play SG, he loses the one advantage he had in that NBA body. If there are suckers out there that want a lost tweener, jump on them now to get a 2nd round pick and maybe some cash.

3. Reggie Jackson: Get rid of him, but like Sparma said, not for pennies on the dollar. In this case patience should be used, if we don't appear to be in a panic, a good deal will likely materialize before the start of the season.

4. Let Bullock Walk and only keep Ellenson: Keep the others only if they can't be packaged into other deals. Moving Stanley might be easier if packaged with Hilliard.

5. Keep Drummond, Harris & Morris, but only if better offers don't come along, but frankly nobody wants Drummond and Morris is too good of a financial value to move. Harris is valuable to a team that needs a 3rd scorer, which is his best lot in life, so maybe he moves.

6. SVG hopefully has learned his lesson, but if he hasn't, unless we get a superstar in here, the results will be the same. Don bitching about low IQ players that are running the plays the coach called.

[Oracle]

Wise, Trey Burkes problem is exactly as you describe, if a coach can't see how to use you you're doomed to look bad until you can find a team running a system that works for you.

Don has never been right about this yet he keeps saying the same false things every time, using the WAY outlier cases of less than 0.1% of the league to describe the whole league.

Coaching is also the Pistons problem: It's not that SVG doesn't have the players he needs, it's that he doesn't use the players he has.

“I feel a responsibility in terms of play-calling, and also in terms of our teaching and our habits,” Van Gundy said while shaking his head. “We watched a lot of it today … it’s just a lot of details we’re not paying attention to in terms of spacing, screening, ball movement, things like that. When you don’t do those things and execute with energy and you don’t end up with quality shots.”

Van Gundy said the team spends 75-80% of practice time on defense. Despite some inconsistencies, the defense is sixth in points allowed in the NBA (102.2).

The offense, however, is bottom five.

“I don’t think I’ve done a good enough job, really hammering home execution, basic things in our offense,” Van Gundy said. “I have to take the responsibility for that.”

Players play within systems that are determined by the coach. Sometimes they can break the rules, but only if you're a superstar, otherwise you're likely to ride the pine for failure to execute the game plan.

The fact that SVG spend so little time on offense shows up in a major way. When the going gets tough, players fall back to the only thing they know. Something needs to happen so they go ISO because they don't have any plays from the coach, or in our case, it likely is the play the coach called.

IMO, SVG has it backwards, spend the most time on offense and slowly bring in the defensive principles over time if you're building a team to compete in 3-5 years. That's how the Bad Boys did it and that's how the 2004 team got there... offense first.

[WTF]

TREY BURKE!!!!!!!

I'm still of the beleif that in the right situation on the right team this kid can be great. What we saw at Michigan for 2 seasons wasn't a fluke or by accident. I don't think it was a transitioning issue or not being talented enough for the NBA issue, I don't think it's a size issue just a lot of dumb luck and misuse issues going on with him.

Here is a kid that stole a little of everything and added it to his game in college that he looked like a NBA READY big time tradional PG built from the same clothe of some past great PG's. Sadly that's not what most teams are looking for from a PG in todays NBA at least not initially only when they see that the Reggie's in the league and most PG's like him don't cut the mustard do they then want a leader.

Sadly Burke may never get that chance, but if I was a coach, general manager or owner I would want him. I would want him to do what he did at Michigan and that's make a group of players look like 1st round lottery picks. He did that with Hardaway, Robinson and McGeary the 2 seasons he played there.

My guess is that there was a pressure to be something that he wasn't, they wanted him to be the next Curry IMO when they should been asking him to be the next Zeke, JKidd, Hardaway or Stockton all the players his game was created from. If we can pry him out of Washington hands this would be our starting PG next season.

[cool breeze]

I am having my doubts. The first rule of selecting a point guard to lead a team is to select a player that has a history of making other players better. That means you don't look for your shot first. You get your teammates involved in the offense. And you show your teammates that you can play good defense too. Our point guard both have the trait of shoot first players. Remember Billups who always waited until the big moment before unleashing his scoring ability towards the middle of the 4th quarter he would come alive. All good point guard do that. My problem with both Reggie and Smith is that one can expect them to run around and then shoot it without making one pass. And SVG stands and watches that nonsense. That must be his game plan or part of it.

Meanwhile after the Bulls blew out our Pistons followed by another blow out at Orlando, Philly beat Chicago on Friday 117 to107. In that game, Philly's un-drafted point guard, TJ McConnell scored 10 points, 5 rebounds,8 assists, and 3 steals in 26 minutes. The Philly players love TJ McConnell. He makes his teammates better and makes the game fun to play. Philly knew what they were doing when they let Smith go. And I am not trying to pick on Smith because he plays hard. But it is the way he runs a team that bothers me. You can't win and I want Detroit to show that they are getting smarter and better. It just may be a big problem moving forward for that to happen if Stan Van Gundy is selecting new players to add to this team. Does he really have a clue as to what it takes to create good chemistry? Most high IQ basketball players would get lost in SVG's basic system with his current leaders running the show. Detroit needs to find a player leader who is really smart. It is time to bring in Isiah Thomas to run this team.

[cool breeze]

Was Ben Wallace ever n one of the draft boards as a guy who would make it in the NBA? How about some of the other players who nobody noticed that became fantastic NBA players?

This season I have been watching the Oregon Ducks a lot. Why because they are so much fun to watch it is crazy. Talk about team chemistry. Dana Altman is in my opinion the best coach in basketball. Every season he fields a team of unknowns and once the game is on you see Oregon players who can and do play three different full court presses, several different half court defenses along with always playing great man to man defense. Those players are fundamentally sound players. That is what Altman looks for in high school players he goes after. Then he makes them better players and while doing it makes sure his players have a lot of fun. IF you see them in person you will see players imitating ducks with the bench guys doing crazy things while supporting the players on the floor. But this season Oregon has some players who could fit in well in any NBA team. Their best defensive player and shot blocker suffered an ACL injury at the end of the first game of the PAC 12 Tournament. The only way Arizona won that tournament is because Oregon couldn't adjust their game due to that loss. But now the team is back on course with Bell looking a lot like Ben Wallace being everywhere on the offensive and defensive boards while blocking so many shots that Kansas players lost their cool. Bell was everywhere and you can't do that without having an extremely high basketball IQ. Sometimes size doesn't matter. Remember Charles Barkley?

However, most NBA scouts that evaluate talent do the laziest thing. They go by high school reputation as to who will make it in the NBA. The scouts watch the 5 star guys a lot before the draft. My problem is how in hell do those experts determine who the 5 star athletes really are? I like the way Dana Altman determines who he wants on his team. This year I have been amazing at how hard and smart Bell, Dorsey, and the Pac 12 player of the year Dillon Brooks play basketball. Their team chemistry is off the charts high. They make Duck faces while sucking it up playing that tough full court defense trapping and helping each other from the opening tip to the final buzzer. Yet I look at the draft boards and see that none of them are listed as potential first round draft picks. Maybe now that will change but I thought being that the team lost their best defender and shot blocker so close to the end of the season that the team could never recover from such a blow. But now they are in the Final 4. The team is undersized but imagine how well they would do against any team that had Drummond and Jackson as their leaders? The Pistons need to find players like those players on the Oregon Ducks. We need smart, quick and courageous type players who have that never die attitude along with a off the charts basketball IQ.

Steve Kerr once spoke here in Tucson and mentioned his experience playing with the Bulls as the physically toughest time in his life. After Chicago had won their first championship, Michael Jordan got the team on the most physically demanding course in the next fall training camp Kerr thought he might die. Jordan was the leader not the coaching staff. He insisted on playing full court defense all in every practice and the players had to go all out or suffer his wrath. But when the regular season started Kerr said it was like playing in slow motion. Everything was so easy because he and his teammates were in the best physical condition of their lives and basketball was easy. The opposing players who were not in shape could not get the ball past half court half very often and they they did, the shot clock would have less than 6 seconds left.

This season has been a complete loss for the Detroit Pistons. Nobody has become a better player. The players do not play with passion. The key players have really low basketball IQs. They could never play in Dana Altman's system. Our players with the big contracts would look like lost puppies. Imagine Andre Drummond adjusting to playing multiple defenses. He can't even get his arms up playing in this lame Piston defense. And how about the passing game the Pistons show us? Only the weakest minded players play basketball the way our Pistons play. This season management has set things up so we get no 2nd round pick and there are some really good players who have been dismissed by the NBA scouts. There are 3 Duck players I would love to see in a Piston uniform and the guy who suffered the ACL is a damn good player too.

[Phil-Good]

" Sad to admit I wasn't a Booker fan for defensive purposes, but with that level of offense, I'm very forgiving on the defensive end!"

Oracle. Don't feel bad. You and A lot of Pistons fans were high on KCP so you all over looked the best player in his draft.

I saw Devin Booker as the perfect fit for the Pistons. I saw A Allen Houston at the worst case. And I said it many, many, times. Devin Booker is what the NBA is now. Skill, dead eye, shooter. And very...very young kid.


I still think Stanley Johnson will be A ball player but he is minimum, 4 or 5 years away. Stanley Johnson plays like A little B.I.T.C.H. right now. He afraid! Afraid to attack, dribble, go left, dunk, to use his euro step, to handle the ball past 3 or 4 dribbles, and on and on. And Johnson look like A below the rim, flat foot, rookie. Stanley need to go find his balls in the off season because he has lost them right now.

I know his mother was his coach all the way up until her passing and she did A wonderful job because Stanley was A ball player coming into Detroit. Now, Stanley looks like Pure trash!!!!

[Sparma]

Has anyone else noticed that the times sometimes jump around on posts when you look at them at different times, or am I going crazy?

[WTF]

In some ways Andre, Reggie, Johnson, Harris, and KCP are damaged goods with only perhaps Harris being the only one likely fixable at this point. The other 4 I'm not really sure of as far as being fixable or repairable whatever the case may be.

Reggie was always a confused and broken product to me, he initially talked a good game but that's all out the window. We can fix talent skills and fundamental quite easily what's hard to fix is character in which at least 3 of the 4 are deeply flawed. KCP is a different story for always the same reason. We have mis-use him so terriblely that it's almost impossible to go back and correct and a change of scenary is required.

IMO a Fire Sale, Clearance Sale, Going Out Business Sale, or 1/2 Off Sale some drastic change needs to occur over the summer, a over hauling is required. We can't keep on this path of waiting and seeing not when its the character issue of players oppose to a issue of talent. We know this players have talent but lets not keep being kind about this they are as stupid as rocks, and really don't seem to give a damn about winning or losing.

I wouldn't be scared to pull the trigger on trading any of them, SVG just needs to do his homework before pulling the trigger and not focus on talent but the right fit. Character and Chemistry needs to be his focus because traditionally we have proven twice that these are the things that delivered us 3 Championships and 5 trips to the Finals.

[cool breeze]

There is about a 2% chance that the Pistons can get the 8th spot now. After losing to a horrible team last night by almost 30 points and being out of the game for all 4 quarters and 16 of the last quarters this team has played, why not let Andre, Reggie, Smith, Pope, Harris, Morris rest on the bench for the remainder of the season. This might get some back for the remaining home games. Fans want to see something new. We all dread seeing who will be in the starting lineup now. If management decides not to trade these players, then perhaps reflecting from a bench position will be a good thing and might restore some type of team chemistry going into next season. If those players are marched out on the hardwood one more time even if they start winning, it will not be a good memory for the fans who are all fed up with what has happened. There is a clear reason why this team is getting blown out. Harris has talked about it in an around about way now for the past two games. He says that the team chemistry is way off. I can see it in the way he is now playing. Harris has been a hard worker all season long. Morris has been the same way. Now both of them are playing like Reggie and Andre. They are playing copy cat with those two leaders. Drummond and Jackson are the cancer on this team.

If SVG benches Drummond and tells the press he is fed up with Andre's overall consistency effort wise and his lack of ability to learn the fundamentals of playing defense, this might get through to our highly paid big man. Maybe Drummond will hire a coach over the summer who can get through to him and teach Andre the mental part of playing defense and go over the fundamentals he is lacking. Andre is clearly lazy and he is switching so much so he won't have to move it has upset the entire Piston team. If you make $20 million a year you can't do that. If he comes back playing the same way next year, it will be necessary to remove him from the team anyway possible.

Jackson is another story. He looks like he is ill or injured. Maybe he will come back next season and be the old Reggie. The old Reggie was a horrible defender but he is capable of becoming a better defender. However, if the Pistons could land a really good point guard in some way and Reggie is part of a deal, then that is the way to go. But sitting Reggie for the rest of the season should not be looked at as punishment. He is not a lazy ass like Andre Drummond.

Let the fans see Ellenson and the other guys who always sit on the bench. Bring up some D League players. Give the fans something new. Indiana is not going to crash and burn like the Pistons. We are a lottery team now.

[Sparma]

Interesting example, Wise.  I wouldn't think of the build up to the double championship as a fire sale, but rather as a succession of smart trades.  There may have been some dollar for pennies trades in there though that I'm not remembering.  

What I think of as a fire sale is: there's been a fire, and you have goods which are greatly damaged, and you're hoping someone will give you something, anything, for those goods.  Put like that maybe fire sales are really rare!

For me, a concrete example (which might not quite fit the description I just gave!) would be Detroit trading an increasingly volatile and unstable Dennis Rodman to San Antonio.  Didn't we know going in that the main guy coming back had heart troubles?  We promptly went from being a .500 (declining) team to being a 16 win team (as I remember) and didn't recover for years.  For me, that'd be an example of an ill-advised selective fire sale.  Maybe Dennis had to go, but there still would have been a more patient and prudent way to proceed.

I'd call the recent Cousins trade another example of a selective fire sale.

Sometimes, you just have to get rid of a player (Cousins?), no matter what the return.  Maybe Reggie's in that category (if he's indeed a "cancer" as has been suggested).  I'm not convinced our other players (Drummond, particularly) are in that category though, much as I'd be open for a half way decent return on some of them.  With those guys, I'd want smart trades, which don't always have to be even in talent, eg, if the roster fit improves.

I'm not sure but I need to go back and check but wasn't 1981 and 1982 in some form was a fire sale in which we landed Bill Zeke and Kelly.    I think Trader Jack closed his eye and rolled those dice pretty hard and kept rolling them season after the season.  

When was the last time we had 2 rookies in an All Star game I don't know if we should go as extreme as Philly so I would hold on to perhaps some combination of say Leuer and Morris.   But if we could pull off a Zeke and Kelly and the cost is offering up Andre, Reggie, JOhnson and KCP for 1st round picks I'm not opposed.

[WTF]

I'm not sure but I need to go back and check but wasn't 1981 and 1982 in some form was a fire sale in which we landed Bill Zeke and Kelly.    I think Trader Jack closed his eye and rolled those dice pretty hard and kept rolling them season after the season.  

When was the last time we had 2 rookies in an All Star game I don't know if we should go as extreme as Philly so I would hold on to perhaps some combination of say Leuer and Morris.   But if we could pull off a Zeke and Kelly and the cost is offering up Andre, Reggie, JOhnson and KCP for 1st round picks I'm not opposed.

[BallinD]

Playoff push? Hope?

Chemistry, T.E.A.M. Pride, Will, Shooting, Defending, all lost.  Certainly it is now clear to all that Stan is the captain of the Titanic.  No more of this playoff nonsense.  Positioning for Pieces is the smart play after a string of blowouts at the hands of hobbled, horrible teams during our Precious Playoff Push.

Equal blame on SVG and Players he selected.  More on him than them maybe; whiffed on the trade deadline, destroyed the best win streak of the season shoving Weggie back into the lineup, fixed what wasn't broken, mishandled Andre, Boban, Tobias, SJ, KCP, Weggie.  He designed a neanderthall-style Iso offense, and so on and so forth.  But some want to keep him as coach.  Not me, but I'm sure he's not going anywhere.

Spot-on comments Sparma.  They're too smart to hold a fire sale.  I hope.

[Sparma]

Go for it, Wise!

I wouldn't even be opposed IF they went all the way, totally gutting the roster except for the youngest of players, maybe. I'd love for us to be the next 76ers, but I just don't see that happening, given who Gores and SVG are. Getting out of the #6 to #10 range in the East will be a challenge.

Selective fire selling doesn't work so well, I think. If you plan to basically stick with your roster, but then you get rid of a few key players for pennies on the dollars, you're asking to be mediocre for a long time.

Does that strategy ever work? I know you can dump a player and be fine (eg Josh Smith), but I can't think of a successful half way measure (eg trading all of Jackson, Drummond, Johnson) for lesser returns.

Sadly for us, in NBA it usually seems to come down to getting a superstar or two, then building around that core. I don't see that happening for us. The complete fire storm strategy that you propose at least comes with the hope of catching lightning in a bottle.

HELL YEAH!!!!! we should have one........

I don't think we need to keep trying to match some percieved level of talent that our players don't really have.  We tend to over-value players we shouldn't like Andre and KCP and then under-value players we're possibly getting in return.   I recall almost every single poster hating the Morris pick up for a **** load of non-basketball reasons.   Morris has been our most consistent player, the only real resemblance of a leader and often lead the team to victories.  Still we seem perfectly content moaning about Andre and Reggie and various other pieces we know don't fit or work.  

We don't need a team full of players with shining stats that are meaningless in losses.  What we need are players that come up big in pressure moments, players that are smart and play the right way.   Think about our 2 teams that won titles and the expectations we had of the individual players on those teams.  

There's no character or identity with this team and I don't think it'll ever be with the likes of Andre, Reggie and perhaps a couple of others.  Our championship teams were built around character and strong will, we didn't have the most physically talented teams, we didn't always have the most sought after players in the league, but the chemistry and toughness of those teams were bigger than any group of superstar put together.  

We need to blow this crap up and put some big heart, strong will, wanna win players on the floor.

[WTF]

HELL YEAH!!!!! we should have one........

I don't think we need to keep trying to match some percieved level of talent that our players don't really have. We tend to over-value players we shouldn't like Andre and KCP and then under-value players we're possibly getting in return. I recall almost every single poster hating the Morris pick up for a **** load of non-basketball reasons. Morris has been our most consistent player, the only real resemblance of a leader and often lead the team to victories. Still we seem perfectly content moaning about Andre and Reggie and various other pieces we know don't fit or work.

We don't need a team full of players with shining stats that are meaningless in losses. What we need are players that come up big in pressure moments, players that are smart and play the right way. Think about our 2 teams that won titles and the expectations we had of the individual players on those teams.

There's no character or identity with this team and I don't think it'll ever be with the likes of Andre, Reggie and perhaps a couple of others. Our championship teams were built around character and strong will, we didn't have the most physically talented teams, we didn't always have the most sought after players in the league, but the chemistry and toughness of those teams were bigger than any group of superstar put together.

We need to blow this crap up and put some big heart, strong will, wanna win players on the floor.

[cool breeze]

This was an amazing game in the late minutes of regulation through to the end of overtime. I love the way Wisconsin plays basketball. However, from the moment the Florida guard touched the basketball until he let the winning shot leave his finger tips over 5 seconds had expired. There was only 4 seconds left in that game at the timeout. The clock was not started at the proper moment. Nobody brought that subject up that I know of. I even used a stop watch and it came out that he shot the ball after having possession for 5 seconds not 4. Still this is what makes the NCAA tournament the best basketball product on the face of the Earth. The NBA is just entertainment at best.

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