@Oracle

[WTF]

@Wise - I really enjoyed your post, it brought back some good memories and told some hard truths.

BTW, Flip was a great coach with one flaw that wasn't his fault... he followed Larry Brown! Flip was never able to fully control a group of players that felt that they were superior because they had been where Flip only dreamed of, and in their minds, he was no Larry Brown. His timing was off and it cost us another 'ship when they didn't listen.

But what Flip & Carlisle had in common was that they both looked at the talent they had and adapted their style of play to suit the talent. It doesn't mean Flip or Carlisle threw out their play books, they just modified them a bit... That's what smart coaches do.

SVG is more like LB with one critical difference. Both knew EXACTLY what offense and defense they wanted to use, but LB, as you stated would sit your ass if you didn't fit and trade you later, he never tried to make someone fit if they didn't. If Chauncey didn't change, his ass would have been gone, but LB saw he could develop Chauncey.

@Don - This conversation must seem foreign to you and your coalition of hidden coaches because you guys believe that players determine everything

Posters would just ridicule my friends instead of me. If any of my friends told me something that i thought would be good to share I wouldnt ever tell anyone who that person is so something could hurt them in some way. Is that what you have done throughout your lives? If so I doubt that you have any trusted friends.

 I can't believe that you could type that mess with a straight face.

Are you saying you don't believe that what your friends said is right?? People that know what they're talking about have no fear of ridicule, least of all a seasoned coach.

So you want us to believe that these guys told you this innocuous stuff and asked you to keep it a secret? Come on Don, even you don't believe that.

You sound like Trump when he says, "People are telling me", or "I'm hearing" when you say,

That is what they tell me Oracle.

Oracle this is why I'm so gunho about blowing the team up completely. How I look at it is that the organization would be smart to pick either 1 on these 3 players (Harris, KCP or Andre) and poperly build around them.

As much as I've been wanting to trade KCP he would be my first option to build around and become the Franchise player. KCP is stuck on stupid like Andre, he has far better upside if used correctly, he is more coachable so whatever flaws he has can be very easily corrected.

Harris could be a player to build around pretty much for the same reasons you would KCP. Harris is already there talent wise but KCP is definitely a better option to build around.

Andre though many will disagree but I would dumb his ass for pennies on the dollar if I could. But if SVG plan is to stick with the ideal of building around this Bozo then he better come up with a plan to get a bona-fide traditional pass first, master floor general at the PG position and a bona-fide (could be starting backup center) I don't know how he'll but he needs to then he need to either scrap his dumb offense or fire himself makes me no difference which he does.

The ideal plan is to keep KCP, keep both Harris and Morris get a freaking PG and a defensive big in the middle. We could use KCP just like Flip, Rick, LB used Rip. SVG dumb ass need to be looking for another CB and Big Ben is what I'm saying he's already has a Rip, Tay and Sheed in Harris, Morris and KCP.

[WTF]

I don't know which was/is worse Joe destroying a potential dyansty or SVG total ineptness as both coach and general manager.  AS fans we sit and think of options all day long one could hope that so would a coach and general manager.  

I can't buy into hands being tied, options being limited, resources being short 1. because these are often ready made excuses to stand by and do nothing. 2. Because change often is a some form of admission to failure and resistence to change. Or 3. your're just a chicken **** and afraid.

I think SVG utilized all three of the above things in some shape or form to bring this team to this point, not really to far remove from the Clownville days of Joe revolving coaches, lust for tweeners and forcing SG's in PG's positions.  I stop letting the media suck me in long time ago because they sale this BS of how we need to be excited, receptive and supportive of the teams BS oppose to calling them out on it.

I said the day we signed Reggie it was the wrong move so this isn't hindsight,  I said Andre wasn't Franchise and that wasn't hindsight either, I said KCP was not the right choice when we drafted him and he wasn't. I said a lot of things under both regime changes and lable pessimist.  I just wasn't putting a ton of hope into a lot BS.

For the life off me I don't understand how we can move from what we know works to guessing at what might work.  We've been a tough minded, blue collar, no gimmick, grind it out organization.  When I look at our roster there's only 2 players out of the 15 on it currently that could have played consistent minutes for either Chuck or Larry and I'm not so sure they would have gotten much PT under Rick or Flip.  

I'm not convince that we can't go back to what we traditionally were,  why are we trying to fit in when we were always against the grain?  We would have never heard LB admit fault, he was an ass no doubt but his ducks were all in a row, so he was able to that.  If you didn't fit into what he wanted to do you didn't play, you got traded this dumb crap of forcing players into a system and style of play their not suited is insane.  

As for Chuck, Rick and Flip they utilize their players skills, We screamed at Flip because he would only go 9 deep into his roster and it might have cost us in the ECF but he coached the hell of the team.  Rick was somewhere in between Chuck and LB and  think eventually he could have got us to the finals but he to coached the hell of this team.  Chuck was just a complete Genius in what he did.  

My point in this is that if we don't get back to what has been proven to work for this team we want win another Finals and this **** that's going on today will become the norm for this team.  AS FANS and I'm gonna say ya'll becuase I don't include myself in this lot.  Ya'll need to get off this wait and see crap, lose that false hope of potential (it's okay if you do that for one or two players not the entire roster) and demand ****.

If they were truly committed to making Andre the Franchise Player they would have put nothing but veteran talent around him from jump street.  Over half the players on this team we knew nothing about prior.  Zeke was franchise and the team did everything possible to surround him with talented veteran teammates PERIOD.  We sit here and moan about unaccomplished role players and rookies getting burn this **** has to stop.

WTF I never could figure out why so many fans blamed and hated Flip Saunders. He has always been a very talented coach. Joe Dumars never would spend the money to get Flip's team a high quality combo guard. Still the teams he coaches played smart and the right way.

@Don, Joe was an asshole because he had a dynasty in hand and screwed it up. You're right Flip was always short a respectable combo guard and a rebounding big man from an NBA Title the 4 seasons he took the team to the ECF. I was never mad at Flip about his short rotation I was always mad at Joe for not getting him what he needed. Flip coached the hell out of those teams even when Joe tossed him turds to bring off the bench. I wasn't mad that Flip didn't trust players like Amir for example becuase though the potential existed he wasn't ready period. When a team is in contention you get players that are ready to help now and not later. Stuckey was his best with Flip and Chauncey

[Oracle]

@Wise - I really enjoyed your post, it brought back some good memories and told some hard truths.

BTW, Flip was a great coach with one flaw that wasn't his fault... he followed Larry Brown! Flip was never able to fully control a group of players that felt that they were superior because they had been where Flip only dreamed of, and in their minds, he was no Larry Brown. His timing was off and it cost us another 'ship when they didn't listen.

But what Flip & Carlisle had in common was that they both looked at the talent they had and adapted their style of play to suit the talent. It doesn't mean Flip or Carlisle threw out their play books, they just modified them a bit... That's what smart coaches do.

SVG is more like LB with one critical difference. Both knew EXACTLY what offense and defense they wanted to use, but LB, as you stated would sit your ass if you didn't fit and trade you later, he never tried to make someone fit if they didn't. If Chauncey didn't change, his ass would have been gone, but LB saw he could develop Chauncey.

@Don - This conversation must seem foreign to you and your coalition of hidden coaches because you guys believe that players determine everything

Posters would just ridicule my friends instead of me. If any of my friends told me something that i thought would be good to share I wouldnt ever tell anyone who that person is so something could hurt them in some way. Is that what you have done throughout your lives? If so I doubt that you have any trusted friends.

 I can't believe that you could type that mess with a straight face.

Are you saying you don't believe that what your friends said is right?? People that know what they're talking about have no fear of ridicule, least of all a seasoned coach.

So you want us to believe that these guys told you this innocuous stuff and asked you to keep it a secret? Come on Don, even you don't believe that.

You sound like Trump when he says, "People are telling me", or "I'm hearing" when you say,

That is what they tell me Oracle.

[WTF]

Silver is insane on this woman thing. I might be called a sexist and I'm not so sure I'll take it as an insult if I were but just because we can I still think there are things we shouldn't do. We can't keep changing the rules or the norm in fear of offending someone we still need to be respectful of what's been tradition.

I use to love going to strip clubs it was a man thing, we touched asses, dranked beer, grunted you know man ****. Then one day I looked up and a woman was getting the same lap dance I was and that's when I decide I wasn't going any more becuase what was once a man's santurary was that no longer.

I'm not saying a woman can't coach a man team but lets just leave some **** the same. Tolerance is good and we should be that way but being respectful of tradition should be equally inportant as well. I say this all the time we don't have to agree on everything and tolerance and respectfulness is a two-way street.

Silver could have easily said it would never happen and offered a ton of accpetable reasons why it would'nt. We keep removing all the rules and then pick and choose when rules should be applied. I believe both men and women have their places in life in general but we can't keep stepping out of the box or for that matter putting ourselves in this box of being politcal correct in fear of offending someone or feeling like discrimanting against someone.

To me a lot of this is money driven either to gain more or in fear of losing it. I wish we would just stop it because it's why the world as a whole is in the shape it is now. We don't have to be extremely liberal in our thinking all the damn time particularly when addressing gender. The only time we should be extreme is in addressing race and that's in all circumstance and perhaps maybe religion but I haven't really decide on that completely.

I think women themselve should look at what they're doing as well, how much do you want to take from a man. I'm not against equal pay for woman, I'm no against women in combat. Still I think you're doing far too much and right or wrong you been force to be Daddy's, cut the grass, wash the car, take out the trash for numerous reasons. I won't go there. Just stop it.


Silver calm your ass down

[cool breeze]

I don't know which was/is worse Joe destroying a potential dyansty or SVG total ineptness as both coach and general manager. AS fans we sit and think of options all day long one could hope that so would a coach and general manager.

I can't buy into hands being tied, options being limited, resources being short 1. because these are often ready made excuses to stand by and do nothing. 2. Because change often is a some form of admission to failure and resistence to change. Or 3. your're just a chicken **** and afraid.

I think SVG utilized all three of the above things in some shape or form to bring this team to this point, not really to far remove from the Clownville days of Joe revolving coaches, lust for tweeners and forcing SG's in PG's positions. I stop letting the media suck me in long time ago because they sale this BS of how we need to be excited, receptive and supportive of the teams BS oppose to calling them out on it.

I said the day we signed Reggie it was the wrong move so this isn't hindsight, I said Andre wasn't Franchise and that wasn't hindsight either, I said KCP was not the right choice when we drafted him and he wasn't. I said a lot of things under both regime changes and lable pessimist. I just wasn't putting a ton of hope into a lot BS.

For the life off me I don't understand how we can move from what we know works to guessing at what might work. We've been a tough minded, blue collar, no gimmick, grind it out organization. When I look at our roster there's only 2 players out of the 15 on it currently that could have played consistent minutes for either Chuck or Larry and I'm not so sure they would have gotten much PT under Rick or Flip.

I'm not convince that we can't go back to what we traditionally were, why are we trying to fit in when we were always against the grain? We would have never heard LB admit fault, he was an ass no doubt but his ducks were all in a row, so he was able to that. If you didn't fit into what he wanted to do you didn't play, you got traded this dumb crap of forcing players into a system and style of play their not suited is insane.

As for Chuck, Rick and Flip they utilize their players skills, We screamed at Flip because he would only go 9 deep into his roster and it might have cost us in the ECF but he coached the hell of the team. Rick was somewhere in between Chuck and LB and think eventually he could have got us to the finals but he to coached the hell of this team. Chuck was just a complete Genius in what he did.

My point in this is that if we don't get back to what has been proven to work for this team we want win another Finals and this **** that's going on today will become the norm for this team. AS FANS and I'm gonna say ya'll becuase I don't include myself in this lot. Ya'll need to get off this wait and see crap, lose that false hope of potential (it's okay if you do that for one or two players not the entire roster) and demand ****.

If they were truly committed to making Andre the Franchise Player they would have put nothing but veteran talent around him from jump street. Over half the players on this team we knew nothing about prior. Zeke was franchise and the team did everything possible to surround him with talented veteran teammates PERIOD. We sit here and moan about unaccomplished role players and rookies getting burn this **** has to stop.

WTF I never could figure out why so many fans blamed and hated Flip Saunders. He has always been a very talented coach. Joe Dumars never would spend the money to get Flip's team a high quality combo guard. Still the teams he coaches played smart and the right way.

[cool breeze]

Adam Silver takes the award for being the most politically correct commissioner in my lifetime as well as the biggest dumb ass. How much ass did he kiss to get that job because his elevation into the commissioners job can't be based on brain power or hard work unless it is ass kissing type of work. What has he done to deserve the job? While Rome is burning meaning the NBA crashing while offering the most inferior basketball product imaginable over the past few years, he is now thinking it is time for some NBA team to step up and hire a female head coach. I have nothing against women holding high positions in the sports world but why bring up this subject when most regular season games are dull and no where near as exciting as college basketball. If there is some brilliant female coach out there who is smarter than a male then go for it. But just to throw that comment out shows me he is an idiot. What he should be concerned with is how NBA teams are playing games in the regular season. Does the NBA schedule too many games so fans get screwed when they buy tickets and show up on the 2nd of back to back games for the one game they will see for the season? How many of those people who get turned off will tell their friends not to buy basketball tickets for any NBA team unless they are a front runner. How do the bottom feeders sell NBA tickets? The problem with the league is that they have expanded the amount of teams to the point that there not enough quality teams out there to hold the interest of the public. Maybe that is why Sparma doesn't even watch the Pistons anymore. Who can blame him? He has stopped watching the Detroit Pistons like most of my friends. I am about to join them if the NBA game doesn't change in a fundamental way. When will the television advertisers wake up? It is only a matter of time before they do and when the television revenue drys up, say good by to the big paydays those of you who are enjoying the high life. Maybe then you will fire Adan Silver. Adam could have said how about discussing putting a hold on allowing players to enter the draft after their 1st season in college? How about reducing the amount of NBA teams and the amount of games being played in the regular season?? How about thinking of ways to make the game more interesting such as eliminating the 3 second rule for teams on defense? So many things need to change to keep the interest of fans as more entertainment competition increases. Will hiring a female head coach increase attendance? Only an idiot would believe that in this day and age. So what will the commissioner give to the owner who bites and submits to the World According To Adam Silver? Will that team get two first round draft picks to comply? Or will all owners get fined until some owner steps up? How about the transgender coaches who have been left out of the NBA? I know the WNBA has some male coaches and it works. Bill Laimbeer commented that he likes the WNBA better as a fan than the NBA. Bill doesn't like the lame style of play of most NBA teams including our Piston team. There is more basic strategy involved in WNBA coaching. If there is some great female coach who wants to take on an NBA team then I have no opposition to that idea. But Adam Silver should be thinking of ways to improve the quality of the actual NBA game and failing to do proves that he is an idiot when it comes to running the show for the NBA.

[WTF]

I don't know which was/is worse Joe destroying a potential dyansty or SVG total ineptness as both coach and general manager. AS fans we sit and think of options all day long one could hope that so would a coach and general manager.

I can't buy into hands being tied, options being limited, resources being short 1. because these are often ready made excuses to stand by and do nothing. 2. Because change often is a some form of admission to failure and resistence to change. Or 3. your're just a chicken **** and afraid.

I think SVG utilized all three of the above things in some shape or form to bring this team to this point, not really to far remove from the Clownville days of Joe revolving coaches, lust for tweeners and forcing SG's in PG's positions. I stop letting the media suck me in long time ago because they sale this BS of how we need to be excited, receptive and supportive of the teams BS oppose to calling them out on it.

I said the day we signed Reggie it was the wrong move so this isn't hindsight, I said Andre wasn't Franchise and that wasn't hindsight either, I said KCP was not the right choice when we drafted him and he wasn't. I said a lot of things under both regime changes and lable pessimist. I just wasn't putting a ton of hope into a lot BS.

For the life off me I don't understand how we can move from what we know works to guessing at what might work. We've been a tough minded, blue collar, no gimmick, grind it out organization. When I look at our roster there's only 2 players out of the 15 on it currently that could have played consistent minutes for either Chuck or Larry and I'm not so sure they would have gotten much PT under Rick or Flip.

I'm not convince that we can't go back to what we traditionally were, why are we trying to fit in when we were always against the grain? We would have never heard LB admit fault, he was an ass no doubt but his ducks were all in a row, so he was able to that. If you didn't fit into what he wanted to do you didn't play, you got traded this dumb crap of forcing players into a system and style of play their not suited is insane.

As for Chuck, Rick and Flip they utilize their players skills, We screamed at Flip because he would only go 9 deep into his roster and it might have cost us in the ECF but he coached the hell of the team. Rick was somewhere in between Chuck and LB and think eventually he could have got us to the finals but he to coached the hell of this team. Chuck was just a complete Genius in what he did.

My point in this is that if we don't get back to what has been proven to work for this team we want win another Finals and this **** that's going on today will become the norm for this team. AS FANS and I'm gonna say ya'll becuase I don't include myself in this lot. Ya'll need to get off this wait and see crap, lose that false hope of potential (it's okay if you do that for one or two players not the entire roster) and demand ****.

If they were truly committed to making Andre the Franchise Player they would have put nothing but veteran talent around him from jump street. Over half the players on this team we knew nothing about prior. Zeke was franchise and the team did everything possible to surround him with talented veteran teammates PERIOD. We sit here and moan about unaccomplished role players and rookies getting burn this **** has to stop.

[cool breeze]

That wouldn't be appropriate because those guys are my friends.

WTF?? Are these guys in the witness protection program?

What's not appropriate? Are they ashamed of their opinions, oh what's the point...

Sparma, what did you mean by reveal his sources? This isn't a news investigation, what would they be hiding... salami  

Posters would just ridicule my friends instead of me. If any of my friends told me something that i thought would be good to share I wouldnt ever tell anyone who that person is so something could hurt them in some way. Is that what you have done throughout your lives? If so I doubt that you have any trusted friends. Who does that? If some Piston fans really think that the coaches are responsible for everything and if we only had the right coaches our players would be kicking ass and taking names I could care less. But that is not the truth and most of you know it.

What I feel after this last game where New York's former All Star point guard with bad knees could get into the paint at will and score 50 points if he wanted to against Ish Smith, is pity for our players. I actually feel sorry for those millionaires wearing the Piston uniform because they fought like hell to win that game and came out in the 3rd quarter once again to get blown out. That was our starters too. How humiliating to get blown out so many games in a row especially after plotting strategy at halftime to be stronger this time around. I saw Morris looking like he was crying. He played hard as did all of the players. Nothing was going their way. The real killer was the fact that the starters could not stop anyone in the 3rd quarter and that affected their ability to play offense. Whey you are just a jump shooting team that shoots jump shots from low percentage areas on the floor you have to have supreme confidence. How can you have any confidence after talking it up at halftime telling each other that you are going to dig down and play hard nosed defense and will shut down New York's offense. After easy score after score everyone lost their confidence and the pressure on them was off the charts. The fact is that the starting unit with either Harris or Leuer in it does not really have any real NBA type starters. They are rotation players but not starters.

This leads me to believe that the only reason why Detroit made the playoffs last season was because of Reggie Jackson. As much as I do not like his style of play, it was Reggie who was the super star last year pulling off shot after shot in the paint under heavy pressure during crunch time. Everyone just took a seat on this Piston team and let Reggie pull off miracle after miracle. When Jackson came back a different player after his surgery, no other starter could carry the load of super hero.

All of the players who started tried really hard to be Reggie this year but none of the starters have a complete skill set on offense. Pope's man made a lot of shots last night so nobody in their right mind would give him the reputation of a defensive stopper. That player who consistently beat Pope was an old Van Gundy player. What was Stan thinking? Pope was AWOL again for most of the game on offense as well. He was trying but doesn't have the skill set necessary yet at least to create his own shot. He is not a good ball handler and is not a big threat to penetrate and create under the basket like Reggie could do last year. But again it is difficult to ever develop a skill set if the point guard is allowed to dominate the basketball so much. The players who have started have gotten worse instead of better throughout this season. More playing time for that group was not the answer. They got most of the playing time. The players lack passing skills, high basketball IQ, quickness, and ability to set screens for others and move without the basketball to get open after assessing the opportunities offered by opposing defenses. Basic tactics players need to have before entering the NBA are missing with our starters. In the NBA there are so many games on the schedule very little time can be dedicated to learning fundamentals of playing basketball. If players listen to their friends and prospective agents and do not acquire a skill set and become the key players of their college team, good luck because you are going to need it.

While Tim Duncan loved the classroom and played 4 years in college and arrived in the NBA with a complete skill set on offense and defense, Andre Drummond had a terrible one year as a college player. Did he even go to class much? Andre came in as a dunker and nothing has changed yet. But last night I saw him trying really hard to do the right thing at least. watching him struggle made me sad for him even though he is an extremely rich man. Andre appears to be a good man. He is just not a good basketball player yet and maybe he never will be a smart player or skilled player. So these Pistons are stuck with themselves and have all been exposed as inferior NBA players who get beat up a lot. Will they tell other is was not their individual fault like Charlie V liked to do? If the Piston players don't want to go through another season like this one, then use this season as motivation and get in the gym with a coach and work hard to overcome the weaknesses each player has right now. If this group returns they could form a bond based on the current humiliation they are experiencing now.

My wish is for Stan Van Gundy to start Johnson, Ellenson, Boban, Hillard, and Beno or reward a D-League point guard. Beno sure had a rough experience in the first half. He has been sitting all season long. When he played earlier in the season Beno was in game shape. I though he was better in the 2nd half. Lose the rest of the games please and try to move up into better draft position. Make some type of trade to secure at least a 2nd round pick.

I like some of your trade ideas involving Pope. Will the Pistons end up getting nothing for him? I would take some of those Nets or Philly players with some draft picks.

[Oracle]

Two teams have a high interest in KCP, Philly & the Nets.

Nobody wants to go to Philly, so let's assume the Nets are the best destination.

SVG, don't blow this: Is a 3 team sign & trade possible, getting us some real nice assets, while getting KCP to a team that will use him properly.

It depends on what both the Nets and the Pistons could cough up to get Philly interested, with the majority of the good stuff coming back our way.

Hope springs eternal!!!

[BallinD]

Stupid Van Gundy now can effectively cover his fat ass for this season.  His "Star Guard" has to be shut down, he is injured.  He even got Gores to sign off on it, so all bases are covered.  

SVG:  We can safely delude everybody and buy one more year of middling mediocrity while we wait for Weggie to get better and for his boyfriend "Baby Dre" to recover from the shock of losing his partner.

Move along people...Nothing else to see here.  I couldn't help it!  It was unfair!  We just have to wait and see.  Meanwhile, we gotta go out and sign KCPeepee to the max.  Business as usual.

[Oracle]

@Wise - Bonehead, dumbass, clown, you pick'em, that's SVG! He finally shuts down Reggie for the season... now that he destroyed the chemistry the team had built, in spite of his mistakes.

What a waste of a season and it's totally on SVG. However, at this point there's something even worse going on and that is the loss by this team of the mental portion of the game. Way too many things this team have been artificially put through and now they're mentally drained.

@Sparma - Yeah, it's almost like if we win we lose and if we lose we still lose! What a f**king disaster. Reminds me of the Joe years which I thought were long gone!

[Sparma]

If we lose tomorrow, we're done done.

I like the Knicks' future better than ours.  At least they have a budding superstar and a high pick.  And a few other pieces.  Rose will be jettisoned and Carmelo will see the light eventually and exit.

Looks like the best we can do in the draft is #11, passing Charlotte, unless we vault into the top 3.

The principal limits I have in mind with SVG concern player acquisition; he should have  done better strategically.

[WTF]

Okay so I'm a coach that wants to run a 4 out and 1 in with severely limited options to put this in play. Do I force pieces to fit or do I coach to my roster at hand.

See SVG was limited only because he limited himself, if we at fans could see this flawed approach clearly a coach with his level of experience should have. I'm less forgiving of SVG err's in judgement because IMO he chosed stubborness and his ego over common sense and practicality because he didn't believe his **** stanked.

He didn't look at the roster with the mindset of seeing what could work he looked at what wouldn't work for his offense. When he annointed Andre "Franchise" I knew it was a problem then and as much as I hated Moose short term he was a better option than Andre and now sadly long term as well. If this was Pat Riley oppose to SVG KCP might already be looking like a D-Wade not using players correctly doesn't fall under the limited clause.

Sadly our players are flawed not my SVG limits but his inability to coach and finding out what works best with the talent in hand.

[Sparma]

The Moose thing was handled badly. Not saying SVG couldn't have made better choices, just that he faced severe limits (eg in getting the shooters he clearly craves). Don makes a good point about Jerebko (whom I liked), but neither examples seem like such a big deal, where the team would have been going in whole other direction if only SVG had made better choices.

Two biggies (and here I'm just going by stories):

Not trading Reggie for Rubio, but so much to get Rubio (who wouldn't fit that well), but to have a halfway decent trade to get away from Reggie.

And if a Drummond (& pieces?) for Cousins trade was briefly a possibility (as Sacs GM may have suggested) they should have gone for that. I'm not a Cousins fan really, but at least that'd be going for broke, with a high up side.

I don't think SVG put his best foot forward in making his choices, I think SVG was limited by his fears and not the number of options that presneted themselves.  IMO there was a abundance of imbalance under and over thinking his choices and I'm not surprised one bit by it.  Just go back to how he handle the whole Moose thing (there was a sign and trade opportunity) he couldn't find.  Letting Moose walk was an viable option but he couldn't completely follow up the process.

[WTF]

Yeah you can if it's done correctly and you put a lot of thought into it. This when you toss the dumb ass analytics out the window and rely on the eye test and gut feelings. No one ever thought Atkins and Wallace equated to a Grant Hill we all thought we just recieved big turds in a sign & trade gone completely wrong.

Thing is sometimes you roll the damn dice anyway, sometime it does fill like buying that $30 scratch off and only winning $10. The moral is to at freaking try, to take a risk

[WTF]

I don't think SVG put his best foot forward in making his choices, I think SVG was limited by his fears and not the number of options that presneted themselves. IMO there was a abundance of imbalance under and over thinking his choices and I'm not surprised one bit by it. Just go back to how he handle the whole Moose thing (there was a sign and trade opportunity) he couldn't find. Letting Moose walk was an viable option but he couldn't completely follow up the process.

[Sparma]

in the old Far Side cartoons, that only took in a fraction of what was being said.

............................[Cool:] "maybe you are right"........................................ [Oracle:] "Sparma got it right" ............................

Bit of a narcissist maybe? Nah, not at 59.

Anyway, thanks for putting up with my pointed commentaries based on watching zero live action.

[WTF]

That wouldn't be appropriate because those guys are my friends.

WTF?? Are these guys in the witness protection program?

What's not appropriate? Are they ashamed of their opinions, oh what's the point...

Sparma, what did you mean by reveal his sources? This isn't a news investigation, what would they be hiding... salami  

Well Don you can't keep tossing out hearsay, not like you'll be giving up top secrets. These don't sound like currently or recent active coaches here. I think for credibilty purposes you should toss out a name or two

[Oracle]

Nope. As soon as the pressure of a playoff fight is over they will win like crazy.
Bunch of quitters.

Damn, I forgot about that kicker in the contract

[Oracle]

The SVG pattern is working again, where he loses his team and bad things start to happen.

Drummond is not the player we thought he would be, and Reggie will never be the guard we need due to Asthma & Stamina issues.

Beyond that there's nothing else, the future is bleak unless major moves are made.

I guess the blow it up guys have finally won me over, but I'm still with Sparma, we can't give away assets for pennies on the dollar.

Sparma got it right, SVG chose to build the team around two shaky pieces, then surrounded them with pieces that don't really fit the offense he's designed.

Of course that's the players fault according to Don and his brain trust.

[lemonpen]

Screw the playoffs, it's all about getting the best possible draft pick at this point, and if we can get some experience for the young guys, I'm all for it!

Time to shut these guys down and get ready for the off season and NBA draft.

Thanks Drummonds. Get in better shape for next season.

Thanks M.Morris. Take care of those knees. Take A load off and come back better next season.

Thanks T.Harris. Do everything exactly like you did last summer. Come back even better next year as the 6th man of the year.

Reggie. Thanks for your first year and A half. IT was all star level play. Time to shut you down for the last 7 games because you have embarrassed yourself and your career this season. And your health issues are well documented.

If the Pistons plan to keep Pope. Shut him down also.

My starting 5 would be Ish, Bullock, Johnson, John Leuer, and Baynes. Next 5 would be The Euro PG, Bobain, Henry Ellinson, the other Rookies. If I need more help, I would call up guys from the D League.

Nope. As soon as the pressure of a playoff fight is over they will win like crazy.
Bunch of quitters.

[Oracle]

That wouldn't be appropriate because those guys are my friends.

WTF?? Are these guys in the witness protection program?

What's not appropriate? Are they ashamed of their opinions, oh what's the point...

Sparma, what did you mean by reveal his sources? This isn't a news investigation, what would they be hiding... salami  

[cool breeze]

Don's said this kind of thing a number of times, and now Stan does it to himself: "I selected everybody in that locker room. I’m the one who wanted them in there."  As I remember, Cool's said things like: SVG's got no one to blame but himself, because he made all these decisions himself, so he's got no grounds to complain.  Correct me if I'm wrong in paraphrasing, Don (btw, don't feel pressure from me to reveal your sources, unless one of them happens to be George Karl).

No need to defend SVG on all counts (yes, he seems to have a recurrent knack for alienating a goodly contingent of his players, and he seems none too creative once Plan A fails).  Still, here I'm going to defend Stan against Stan, as well as against Don.

Isn't there a logical fallacy here?  (granted, it would help if I could name it).  Equivocation, maybe?

Someone can have made decisions themselves, but still have grounds to complain.  For example, in college I chose to work night shifts as security guard patrolling the grounds in the bitterly cold '77 Illinois winter.  All my choice.  No one to blame but me.  But I didn't choose (at least unless we push responsibility back a few steps) the range of choices available to me.  So, I can complain about the job being sub-optimal even though I chose it myself.

Back to Stan.  Stan love shooters.  Tobias is an ok shooter, but he was who was available.  Stan chose him.  Leuer was a pretty good shooter (who's gotten worse as 3pt shooter with the Pistons).  Stan chose him.  Doesn't mean Stan can't see that there would have been a better option, given a different set of options.  Ish can't shoot worth a lick.  Yet Stan chose him.  Same deal.

We're responsible for choices within the range of available options.  We make sub-optimal choices all the time, which we should feel free to complain about, because we're just playing the hand we've been dealt.  

So Stan, give yourself a break.  And Don, give Stan a break.  Because that's how life works.  We can't always get what we want, as we have on good authority.

Sparma I will give SVG a break when he pays attention and takes Andre Drummond out of the game when he switches off opposing centers who are 3 feet from the basket forcing Smith to guard a guy 14 inches taller who weighs a 100 pounds more than Smith. Drummond switches a lot because he is lazy and figures he won't have to move if he switches. When players screw up like that it ruins the team's chemistry. When players know that the coach is either not watching or ignoring things like that, and then pick on the fringe players, who wants to play for that kind of a coach? Just by taking out Andre in this last game when he did that would at least let our $20 million dollar a year man know that he shouldn't be switching on defense so much. We all can see many insane decisions Drummond makes on defense in every game but the switch with Smith took the dumb ass award for the year in Piston land. I would love it if other posters would point out details they saw with individual starters and share them. Who knows maybe the offenders might get some feed back because it appears the coaching staff won't ruffle feathers. The fans who go to the games and the fans who play to watch the Pistons on television should have some voice in hopes of improving the game.

Relating to the decision making skills of SVG on selecting players maybe you are right that I have been too hard on our coach. He had limited selection opportunities. And I am still pissed that he didn't keep Jonas Jerebco a long time ago and actually give him a fair shot. Jonas might not be the best player but the fans loved him and since he left I can't see where we have any power forward who can play defense as well as he did and who shared the ball as much. But my biggest complaint is not with the players he has selected but the reason why he selected them in the first place. I am against his style of play. He picked those players to fit his style where 3 out of 5 players are always decoys on offense and only two players touch the basketball in any one possession. If he doesn't like what his players have been doing with their selfish habits, then he sure hasn't done anything about it. He likes his point guards dribbling around looking for their own shot. He has never taken out a point guard for doing just that on 3 or 4 straight possessions. Who in hell does that but Piston guards?

[cool breeze]

Sorry Oracle you have no clue what in hell you are talking about relating to what impact a coach has in the NBA. I am friends with several former NBA coaches both assistant and head coaches. That is what they tell me Oracle.

That wouldn't be appropriate because those guys are my friends. But one of them used to be an assistant coach for the Pistons. He told me a story of one timeout when he told one of the Piston guards to make sure you stay tight on Eric Snow so he can't get off a 3 point shot attempt because there was only about 12 seconds left in the game and Detroit was ahead by 2 points. My friend had tried to teach this guard some basic fundamentals on the defensive end all season long but everything would go in one ear and out the other. Sure enough even though my buddy had told the Piston guard three times to remember stay close to Snow especially if he wanders beyond the 3 point line. Sure enough after the ball is inbounded and snow goes to the wing opposite of the ball, the Piston guard decides to go into the paint and forgets about Snow who receives the ball and makes the 3 point shot. That happened to me many times coaching high school ball where the opponent has the possession at the end of the game and the score is close. The worst offense once was when I took our small forward aside and told him that his guy would try to go baseline because this player on my team had given up a baseline layup to him at the end of the first half. Sure enough my player took the fake and his guy got another layup to tie the score. That was high school and not too many kids who play make that mistake. He never made it again as a player on my team and he was a good player. But considering the NBA is supposed to be the place where the best basketball is played, coaches who decide to move from coaching college players to the NBA go into shock when they first arrive. It is not the same. You are very lucky when you get players that will listen to you. And contract determine who plays as anyone can guess why. Yes the owner will get pretty pissed if the coach is not playing a guy who makes $20 million dollars a year. As for the coaching experience in the NBA, the money is great but the experience sucks for the most part. Few of my friends who are now out of coaching ever watch regular season NBA games. They watch some of the playoff games but feel the NBA is not really the way basketball should be played. But there are a few teams with players who forget about the money when the game starts. They somehow keep that beautiful spirit kids have when they play high school ball. And out of those players some lucky teams will get real leaders who get their teammates to play the right way. We have none of those players on the Piston roster.

Now I do believe that Stan Van Gundy is not qualified to be a head coach in the NBA. He has a lot of players who do not listen to him or his assistants but I would find myself tuning him off as well if he really does believe in the type of offensive style of play his players have shown us this season. This idea that you allow your players to stand around on offense while only at the most two players are active in any one possession while shooting the ball early in the shot clock has been the norm this year. Those two players who touch the basketball end up shooting contested long range jump shots. While the 20 year old Stanley Johnson is not having a good year at all, I can easily see why. This mindless system has upset his entire being to the core. And if this style is employed with every team throughout the league, his career will end quickly. I still would like to see Johnson playing point guard but he would have a style much like Spencer Dinwiddie so that will never happen.

Maybe something big is going to happen soon with SVG possibly leaving or at least moving out of the coaching end. It sucks to end the season like this group has done and even worse when you look at the teams who get to select before the Pistons many have suffered some injuries that have caused them to have more losses than the Pistons. Detroit has been at full strength for a long time excluding knee issue with Jackson earlier in the year and Bullock being in and out because of back issues and not the ankle. For the Pistons who return next year, I doubt many will be taking the summer off if they have half a brain.

[Sparma]

Don's said this kind of thing a number of times, and now Stan does it to himself: "I selected everybody in that locker room. I’m the one who wanted them in there."  As I remember, Cool's said things like: SVG's got no one to blame but himself, because he made all these decisions himself, so he's got no grounds to complain.  Correct me if I'm wrong in paraphrasing, Don (btw, don't feel pressure from me to reveal your sources, unless one of them happens to be George Karl).

No need to defend SVG on all counts (yes, he seems to have a recurrent knack for alienating a goodly contingent of his players, and he seems none too creative once Plan A fails).  Still, here I'm going to defend Stan against Stan, as well as against Don.

Isn't there a logical fallacy here?  (granted, it would help if I could name it).  Equivocation, maybe?

Someone can have made decisions themselves, but still have grounds to complain.  For example, in college I chose to work night shifts as security guard patrolling the grounds in the bitterly cold '77 Illinois winter.  All my choice.  No one to blame but me.  But I didn't choose (at least unless we push responsibility back a few steps) the range of choices available to me.  So, I can complain about the job being sub-optimal even though I chose it myself.

Back to Stan.  Stan love shooters.  Tobias is an ok shooter, but he was who was available.  Stan chose him.  Leuer was a pretty good shooter (who's gotten worse as 3pt shooter with the Pistons).  Stan chose him.  Doesn't mean Stan can't see that there would have been a better option, given a different set of options.  Ish can't shoot worth a lick.  Yet Stan chose him.  Same deal.

We're responsible for choices within the range of available options.  We make sub-optimal choices all the time, which we should feel free to complain about, because we're just playing the hand we've been dealt.  

So Stan, give yourself a break.  And Don, give Stan a break.  Because that's how life works.  We can't always get what we want, as we have on good authority.

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