Ref’s and Finger ???

[lemonpen]

Come on now, who really believes ref’s and a broke digit are responsible for the Leo’s decline.  
We were making hay squeaking by tomato cans then the playoffs began 3 weeks early.  In the last 4 games we were dominated by 80% of the NFC playoff contingent not named Lions, and subsequently exposed in virtually all phases of the game.  (kudos to our kicking combo)
So, does that make us the worst of the playoff qualifiers, or the best of those who didn’t.  Either way it is a good start for the new GM.

With that said, I am totally satisfied with our outlook.
- The new scouting / player evaluation system found many young contributors.
- An O-line chocked full of rookies improved as the year progressed.
- We have a kicking game that is a difference maker.
- Stafford has been taught the value of a possession.

[WTF]

I can't be mad at a team making the playoffs, can't be mad at a team that went to the plays 2 of their last 3 season. Ever talking head at the start of the season had them dead last in their Division.

Mad because this game was clearly called in favor of the Seahawks before I start this isn't the homer in me speaking. My Lions can comeback in win games in almost most situations except one and that is when they have to play against the Refs. The were at least 4-5 very questionable calls that lead to scores for the Seahawks, there were another 4-5 non calls that lead to the Lions drive ending. I'm going to say this happen in at least 3 of their season ending loses. There were 2 calls that should been offensive pass interference because of the face mask being pulled. This **** also happened in the game against the Giants and Dallas.

Now the Lions didn't help themselves way too many drop passes yesterday and the run game is horrible. We need to be looking for three things during the off season. 1. RB, 2. WR and 3. Backup QB.

I feel bad for Stafford who played a hell of a season up until that finger injury and he did try but what can you do if the WR can't hold on to the ball. This the best he's thrown since hurting the finger damn shame they let him down.

[Sparma]

For once, I guess I'd been more optimistic. With a couple of colleague, I'd predicted that the Lions would be between 7-9 and 9-7, with playoffs depending on what other teams did if they were at 9-7. But then I guess predicting an NFL team being in that range is generally (excepting the Browns and Patriots) a pretty cautious guess.

Is it possible that the Lions are at once the best of the Detroit teams and the one least likely to make it to the championship showdown? I continue to be amazed that the Lions haven't made it to the Super bowl over the decades with the NFL's emphasis on parity. What would the odds be over a 50 year period if making it were random?

I could see them being better next year, but with worse results, with a tougher schedule (and less luck early on?)

[Oracle]

To even make the playoffs this year, so there's that, but they went WAY downhill after Stafford got hurt.

Got ugly.

This will go down as yet another typical Lions season, with glimmers of hope, one bright spark (MS) early, and then a depressingly predictable denouement.

When you look at Caldwell's record compared to other Lions coaches in the past 50 years, he deserves to be back, but gosh....

In 50 years of following the team, I don't think I've witnessed a coach who was good as a coach in Detroit.  

[Sparma]

Got ugly.

This will go down as yet another typical Lions season, with glimmers of hope, one bright spark (MS) early, and then a depressingly predictable denouement.

When you look at Caldwell's record compared to other Lions coaches in the past 50 years, he deserves to be back, but gosh....

In 50 years of following the team, I don't think I've witnessed a coach who was good as a coach in Detroit.

[Sparma]

Watching this game:

Stafford looking good (not great), but receivers letting him down with key drops.

Fantastic TD catch for Seattle, but (as replays show) it should have been offsetting penalties on a face mask, giving Detroit the ball with no score, because it had been 4th down.

Zenner had a nice run (17 y?), but Detroit's not getting much on the run generally.

Good penetration by Detroit DL. The now healthy Ansah has a mismatch and could have a monster game, and needs to for Detroit to win.

Still showing real signs of life, accompanied by a decent chance to win (but well under 50%).

[cool breeze]

A friend and former neighbor of mine and former Piston assistant coach Kevin O'Neill once told me you find the real character of an NBA team during the time period from Thanksgiving through the first two weeks of January. The telling sign of a team's real character especially shows during the time of Christmas through New years. This is the time when players are especially tired of the travel grind and don't really enjoy playing basketball. The players with high character who really want to be part of a great team will suck it up and play through this mentally draining period of time. So many of you fans are long term fans of the Pistons. We have been through a lot of ups and downs over the years but smile when we think of certain players and the teams that they created. We have watched a lot of players fizzle crash and burn as well. We have also watched really poor management decisions and coaching as well.

This team finished last season on an up note making the playoffs. When Harris arrived the team played with a lot more energy and purpose. They played the game together as if they liked each other. Our rookie at the time Stanley Johnson showed a lot of promise and never let up all summer long and even played in the summer league again. Most of us thought we had a real winner in Johnson who is a guy who had always been successful on any team he played on. Then in training camp he suffered a foot injury and the coach seemed to lose confidence in Johnson. Johnson felt that lack of trust after he was jerked out immediately after making one mistake or missing a shot attempt. the rest is history. Johnson had thought he was a big part of the team and realized that Stan Van Gundy didn't think of him in that way at all. Johnson has always had the trust of any coach he ever played for and he has always been a guy who really listens and tries to do what his coach tells him to do. For for whatever reason, Stan Van Gundy lost his trust in Stanley Johnson and gave him mixed messages. In the last game, Hilliard came off the bench for Pope instead of Johnson. That might be the last nail in the coffin for Johnson as a Detroit Piston. Somehow and I am not sure who is to blame, there is no future for Stanley Johnson as a Piston. This has not been the first time that Stan Van Gundy has done this. He has in the past decided to not develop a young guy and instead used a very limited upside player to fill minutes for a quirky reason at best. To me, this is a sign that Stan Van Gundy is not a great coach or manager after all. He has not been able to get the best possible result out of a very promising basketball player who is a team first type player instead of a me first player.

So what should the owner do now. Stan Van Gundy's chosen leaders and his chosen key players cannot play effective team defense and several of those selected players are not and never will be fundamentally sound players. To add insult to injury, many of SVG's chosen players did not play hard with confidence or purpose during the revealing time period Kevin O'Neill talked about from Thanksgiving though the Christmas holidays. In fact this was the time when SVG's chosen players went into a dark hole where every team they played against could score at will. When you give up 114 points and get a win, it is not a time to celebrate anything. And the owner must know that. He has to be watching SVG shaking on the sidelines a lot and throwing his hands up when his chosen players do not listen to his instructions. He has picked Smith as the back up point guard and that is it, It makes no difference what Smith might do. Not to single out Smith but it is puzzling to watch Van Gundy when Smith does go on a spree of turnovers by driving wildly into the painted area or when players blow by him on defense. He overlooks those mistakes but punishes Johnson who should be making mistakes being he is only 20 years old. Something is wrong mentally with SVG and the players must sense it and have tuned him out. That is no excuse for this chosen players that SVG has his trust in. They have shown real poor character as far as I am concerned because guys like Drummond continue to learn from their mistakes and actually give half an effort a lot of the time when their team is behind and getting blown out of games. I seldom see SVG's chosen players ramp it up with extreme energy when the team is having bad moments shooting the basketball. Some player needs to apart the team with extreme energy on defense or offensive rebounding to get 2nd opportunities. It just hasn't happened. There is no spark during dark moments that all teams go through. And the head coach cannot motivate the players at this level in the NBA. You have it or you don't have it.

The owner needs to step in if Stan Van Gundy remains in a fog and form a new battle plan. This must start now to secure a better future regardless of how painful that decision might be. One of the fans on this forum suggested making a trade for Anthony Davis. He said that every Piston player should be included as possible candidates to exchange for Davis including Drummond. I agree that something like that should happen. But better yet the Piston management needs to consider if they ever want to win a championship or stay in the mold of operation that Stan Van Gundy has in mind. He has acquired better players than we had but they are not good enough to ever beat the top teams. As the Pistons stand right now, they are out of the playoffs. And the way they have lost games is very revealing. This team is getting blown out in the first quarter.

The Piston record shows that the team has suffered 21 loses already. Other owners have already decided to get their teams positioned for next summer's draft. Brooklyn is currently leading in the percentages for that first pick of the draft at 27 loses which is only 6 more losses than our Piston team. LA Lakers and Miami are tied for 2nd at 26. I think 9 teams are ahead of Detroit in the loss column. Smart owners always seem to realize when the hand writing is on the wall and know that the only way soft market teams ever have a chance is to secure a few really high draft picks and develop those picks. The clever owner and his GM at Miami are now sandbagging. Even the brain trust in Atlanta who have a division leading team now have decided to do rebuild. Those two teams are not happy with a 2nd place finish so why is Stan Van Gundy trying to build a team that can get the 8th spot in the playoffs? The Pistons could be in a great position if they can make some great trades for draft picks and get a guy like Davis. He is a big guy who plays hard every night and is fundamentally sound in all aspects. We have nobody like that.

While Stan Van Gundy might be content watching his guy Smith run the court like Will Bynum did, many of us are tired of this old circus act. We want the Pistons to have a real future. In my opinion, this Piston coach has nothing to lose by placing our young big man and number one draft pick, Mr. E. of 2016, into the rotation for the rest of the season. The coach could also place Johnson in the starting lineup and bring Morris off the bench. The starters could be Jackson, Drummond, Harris, Johnson and Pope with any of those players possibly being included in a future trade. I prefer keeping Johnson because he is only 20 years old and could become an elite defender in the future which every NBA team needs to win championships. The 2nd unit could be Boban, Beno, Morris, Leuer, Hilliard or a D-League player at the 2 guard where the owner could experiment with several players on 10 day contracts. Smith and Baynes along with one or two of the starters could be used to secure more first round picks or a dynamic young potential star type player. Notice that I am mentioning the Owner Tom Gores and not Stan Van Gundy. I still respect Stan but do not think he has the stomach for a rebuild that includes developing young talent. Maybe the owner will need to steal a prime time college coach who has the patience to go though some tough times while staying up beat.

Go Lions and surprise the world today!

[Oracle]

We better be looking, even the Cavs aren't sitting still! Just thought about this!!! Two teams will have most of the best 3 point shooters in the game... Damn!!!

CLEVELAND (AP) -- Kyle Korver could soon be hoisting shots for the NBA champions.

The Cleveland Cavaliers are trying to finalize a deal to acquire Korver, one of the league's elite 3-point shooters, in a trade from the Atlanta Hawks, a person familiar with the negotiations told The Associated Press on Thursday night.

The sides are closing in on a deal, but the particulars "are not clear," said the person who spoke on condition of anonymity because the deal has not been completed.

[cool breeze]

Someone help me with the rules.

How many feet must touch the court to properly establish a player as being "in bounds".

I'm was under the impression that both feet have to be touching in the NBA (might be different in college). If I'm correct Belinelli touched the ball illegally as having only placed one foot on the court prior to grabbing the loose ball.

It appears that the officials relaxed a bit knowing before handing the ball to Bellinelli that anything other than a pass close to the rim with a tip in attempt could work considering the time left in the game. There was only .5 seconds left when Bellinelli stood on the sideline looking to inbound the basketball. Nobody was open so he threw the ball in hitting Morris in the back intentionally. Pretty quick thinking on his part. I thought he had both feet in play as he jumped about two feet onto the court while catching the ball directly off Morris's back and launching the 3 point shot. He makes the shot off the board in a bang bang incredible play. But there is no way he could have done that with the fraction of a second left in the game. But it was close. Morris decided to turn his back on Bellinelli which in my opinion was a huge error. I was wondering why he coach didn't have Morris try to obstruct Bellinelli's vision playing directly in his face on that sideline situation. Morris did help prevent a pass getting into Walker's hands but if there had been one second left, Detroit could have been starring at a heart breaking loss. Basketball is a crazy sport and the NBA brings out the craziest situations.

How about the foul call on the dead ball involving Morris and Bellinelli? There sure was a lot of pushing and shoving by a lot of players when that foul was called. Charlotte gets one foul shot and the ball. I wonder how many offensive holding penalties our Lions will be called for after they make touchdowns on Saturday. I am still pissed about that Ohio State-Michigan football game where Ohio State was never called for one offensive holding penalty when they did it on almost every pass play attempted.

[BallinD]

Triple Doubles up the yin yang, from Westbrook, and Harden to some extent. 50 point games, eight players this year going off for 50 or more, including possible trade target Jimmy Butler. Cavs to get Kyle Korver for a first round pick (hint: it will be low) For the Pistons, a swoon.

Can we get anything for Baynes, plus filler? Will Bullock repeat last season's shooting spree? Will SVG hire a strategic assistant as DX and KaySlay and BallinD suggested? Will he package Baynes and filler for shooting, dynamism, get to the line ability?

Last night's game was more troubling than anything else, outside of Boban showing he is ready for more minutes. The swoon at the end, the Reggie show at the end. SVG won't talk about it, but he knows a move is necessary and the going forward blueprint is, or should be on the table, along with all players, IMHO.

Troubling times for hopeful Piston Fans

[lemonpen]

Someone help me with the rules.  

How many feet must touch the court to properly establish a player as being "in bounds".  

I was under the impression that both feet have to be touching in the NBA (might be different in college).  If I'm correct Belinelli touched the ball illegally as having only placed one foot on the court prior to grabbing the loose ball.

[cool breeze]

Detroit scores 115 points but almost lose the game after a made 3 pointer is waived off as time had run out. How frustrating to watch the 4th quarter of that game. First Drummond screws up three times in the first minute he enters the game. Then Pope shows no ability to guard Walker at any time in the entire 4th quarter. The pick and roll defense was horrible. It appears there is ZERO communication between Drummond and Pope on the high screen. Drummond not only doesn't tell Pope where the screen is being set but also fails to center himself in the middle of the paint to force Walker to stop his penetration. No adjustment was made by Stan Van Gundy or the players during those embarrassing moments when it looked as if the Piston players had never practiced together before the game. Then the big 3 point shot by Hawes tied the score after a timeout. What do you think the coaches were telling the players in the timeout? They had to be saying Charlotte will most likely play the two man game with Walker and Hawes. So imagine you are playing for your high school and this same situation came up. The coach tells the player who will be guarding the opposing player setting the high screen just beyond the foul line to make sure you do not switch. Try to make a pass back to the screener very difficult but stay between at man and the basket. If he gets the pass then stay tight on him with your arms straight up to make a shot attempt difficult. Our players are not high school players. Too many of our players are in the first group of players Sean Miller talks about as the nightmare type players you hate to coach. I can't believe that Stan Van Gundy didn't tell Andre Drummond what he wanted him to do in that situation where Hawes drilled the 3 point shot. If you have a long history of not listening to coaching instruction and you get away with it, your potential to become a winning type teammate is greatly reduced. Both Pope and Drummond looked like they played for the Washington Generals in the 4th quarter of that basketball game.

While it is clear that some of our key players play basketball like idiots, some blame for the current record should rest on Stan Van Gundy's shoulders as well. Detroit should have lost that game because of mental errors. If the coach can clearly see that there is no way in hell that Pope and Drummond can defend the pick and roll play against Hawes and Walker, then he needed to change something long before the 44 points were scored in the 4th quarter of that game. It appears that Stanley Johnson is once again in the dog house. Stanley Johnson should have been inserted into the game to stop that pick and roll play. If the Pistons had lost that game, Mr. Gores should have fired Stan Van Gundy as head coach. No coach should survive if his team continues to give up the amount of points the Pistons are currently giving up. Last night SVG decided to play Hilliard instead of Johnson again and it backfired because Hilliard was horrible. Van Gundy does not look to be in good health. He seems to shake a lot lately. Maybe he never did give proper instructions to his team in that timeout before Hawes made the 3 pointer.

I see the Pistons dropping 4 out of the next 5 games even if they play 30% better which is doubtful. The news flash that Aron Baynes is close to returning for duty does not stir the interest of any Piston fan so that planted story line will not sell any tickets when the Pistons return from their road trip. The fans might show up to see Boban do this thing. Nobody likes the starting unit right now and they do not like the coaching. Is it time for the owner to step in and demand change to include more playing time for Johnson and at least 10 minutes a game for Ellenson? Will Van Gundy throw in the towel if he is forced to make changes? We are now reduced to thinking about all this potential drama because this Piston team has too many low basketball IQ players getting large minutes. The future for the Pistons is in the draft lottery. It is time for the Pistons to position themselves to secure at least a top 3 draft pick. This team is not far behind the biggest losers so playing the young guys and securing more losses this season might pay big dividends next year. Trading current rotation players for draft picks before the trade deadline might be the right thing to do. the results of this road trip might force Van Gundy to change his current thinking.

The Pistons won this last game so I should not be beating them up but we must also remember that Charlotte was playing the 2nd of a back to back game and they were able to score 44 points in the 4th quarter against our rested team.

[lemonpen]

I have advocated coughing up RJax, Dre, and SJ for the Pelicans Big Gun. I know it's a long shot, but it's the shortest path to the ECF.

In the mean time things seem to be shaping up into what might be a workable (spelled playoff push worthy) alternative.
1- Our b/u PG showed an ability to run a more efficient - higher upside game than the starter when afforded the minutes.
2- The coaching staff may be working a minor miracle in making a 3rd string C look, ... gulp ..., more effective than #2. Yeah, a sample of uno, but time is getting short.

Could we, would we consider trading both Baynes & RJax for a human asset or high first round pick. I would not be surprised to see something happen if we suffer a sorry road trip.

[cool breeze]

The Pistons have a nice thing going between Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond. The Pistons’ can build around those two.

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope and Tobias Harris have been very selfless and consistent contributors. Whether you increase their roles or not they are good fit with the team. Jon Leuer and Ish Smith are solid contributors that also have a defined role with the team and would be good fits in secondary roles.

Every player not listed above, I would look into moving if the return was a future asset or a player who could help the Pistons win now, assuming Van Gundy still thinks he can win with the team.
If the next 10 games are hopelessly bad, than perhaps that list grows to everyone short of Drummond.

I’ll close by saying this. I think there is a cancer on the team that is really holding it back. Remember how improved the Pistons were when they waived Josh Smith a few years ago? One cancerous player in the locker room can make all the difference.

It’s hard to pin down who that cancer is, but by removing that one player, perhaps the Pistons would find their 50+ win form from a season ago.

Seriously they don't know where the cancer is? geesh get a MRI, CATSCAN call the Oncologist. Yes they know that's why they had a players only meeting, yes they know that's why they been flipping players in the lineup.

My guess is SVG is afraid of pulling the trigger or they're figuring out who to scapegoat apparently they're setting up Morris to be that guy. I smell the Rip-Josh blame game coming. SMH

I can't agree that the Pistons have a good thing with Reggie and Andre moving forward. With Boban the Pistons built an 18 point lead with about 9 minutes to go. Andre Drummond enters and everything changes and not for the better. Drummond makes 3 big mistakes in a row especially failing to rotate and giving up a layup to keep Charlotte's 8-0 run going smoothly until Van Gundy had to call a timeout. I can't see how any coach can trust Andre Drummond from one game to the next. Who many minutes has he played as a Piston? Watching Drummond when he came in after Boban had played so well, I couldn't help but notice how lazy Drummond looked compared to our 3rd string center. If Boban has the stamina to play the same amount of minutes he played last night, it is clear that he is the superior center to either Drummond or Baynes. It was refreshing to see Boban actually look back and then block out opposing players crashing the boards on the weak side. Drummond has never learned that simple fundamental thing high school centers do. Boban does it. Drummond stands and looks at the basket. How old is Andre Drummond? How old is he mentally? He has all the gifts physically but does not take the game seriously. He plays hard and shows how athletic he can be and then seems to lose it energy wise. Coaches need to be able to trust their players. Drummond seems to be the type of player who acts like he is listening to coaches and is not serious about becoming a smarter player. Wasn't it last season when Drummond informed Van Gundy that he didn't want to be coached by the shooting coach who was trying to help Andre with his foul shooting technique? Van Gundy submitted to Andre's request to use another assistant coach when working on his foul shooting problems. Doesn't Andre Drummond have the record as the worst free throw shooter in NBA history? Does Andre study game film so he can see why opposing teams get so many 2nd chance shot attempts?

Watching Boban in the rotation is proof that it is very difficult to judge any player sitting on the bench who gets a few minutes in blow out games. Boban knew he was going to play a lot of minutes and he prepared himself to play. Boban did that without being in game shape. Incredible performance by last night's Piston hero.

The other hero was Harris who played one hell of a game. There is no justice at all if he continues to come off the bench. Harris has been Detroit's best player all season long as Zeke pointed out. No player who is leading the team in scoring is happy when the head coach spins the idea that Harris beings a big punch to Piston scoring by coming off the bench.

Morris had a good game on both ends of the floor. Smith made the same blunder as Hilliard of fouling 3 point shooters when there was no chance of the shooter making the shot attempt. Smith fouled Walker with less than a second left in the first half. Other than that, Smith was in better control on offense as were both point guards and the Pistons only turned the ball over 3 times in the entire first half. Both point guard played with much more energy on defense.

I was in a gym yesterday helping out with some kids who were playing with a smaller ball with the basket lowered to 8 feet. Just standing under the basket made me think how easy the game should be for players like Andre Drummond when they can stand flat footed and almost touch the rim. Guards have to use so much energy to play the game. Meanwhile, big athletic guys like Andre Drummond who is supported to be our franchise player doesn't even try to dunk the basketball when he gets the ball within two feet of the basket. Half the time, Andre's legs are not bent much and the feet are not moving much. Then once in awhile, Andre goes out a guards s point guard and forces a turnover because of his quickness. Our big guy is full of talent and God given ability but he has not tapped into the idea of playing the game the right way so he can give his team what is needed to be a consistent winner. Andre Drummond is just showing up for regular season games and does nothing to prepare himself mentally to reduce his mistakes. That must drive Stan Van Gundy mad.

[WTF]

The Pistons have a nice thing going between Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond. The Pistons’ can build around those two.

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope and Tobias Harris have been very selfless and consistent contributors. Whether you increase their roles or not they are good fit with the team. Jon Leuer and Ish Smith are solid contributors that also have a defined role with the team and would be good fits in secondary roles.

Every player not listed above, I would look into moving if the return was a future asset or a player who could help the Pistons win now, assuming Van Gundy still thinks he can win with the team.
If the next 10 games are hopelessly bad, than perhaps that list grows to everyone short of Drummond.

I’ll close by saying this. I think there is a cancer on the team that is really holding it back. Remember how improved the Pistons were when they waived Josh Smith a few years ago? One cancerous player in the locker room can make all the difference.

It’s hard to pin down who that cancer is, but by removing that one player, perhaps the Pistons would find their 50+ win form from a season ago.

Seriously they don't know where the cancer is? geesh get a MRI, CATSCAN call the Oncologist. Yes they know that's why they had a players only meeting, yes they know that's why they been flipping players in the lineup.

My guess is SVG is afraid of pulling the trigger or they're figuring out who to scapegoat apparently they're setting up Morris to be that guy. I smell the Rip-Josh blame game coming. SMH

[BallinD]

Big Fella, with your bad self.

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