How can all of us be wrong?

[cool breeze]

After reading some damn good posts from you Piston fans, it is clear that the facts show that we cannot all be wrong. Do the owners read this forum? If I were an owner, I would want to know what the customers think about my product. If so what can they think about their team after the last two games? dX pointed out the obvious that this team might have some hidden talent that we will never know about because the coach continues to play the losers. If Frank is playing the best players as he contends then we must all be crazy. Frank is playing the cheaters or fakers who only give to the team a limited abount of their emotion and energy. Those players have defects in their games that all opposing coaches know how to exploit. One of the biggest defects they all share is lack of interest or concentration and the willingness of expending a lot of energy consistantly. Either they are not willing to do it or they are not capable of playing all out for very long. However, when late February and March comes around, those players suddenly come to life and become more competitive only to try to make management believe they have something really special in like Stuckey, Charlie V, Maggette, Maxiell and Bynum. Sorry but I have to include Stuckey in this group. His head is not in the game of basketball. And Bynum got to play last night so I suspect the coach is thinking that his big change to shake up the team would be to get Bynum back into the rotation. Denver was horrible last night and Philly did not play a good game but the result was the same. Street ball offense where the team is lucky to make one pass within the 24 second shot clock mega breakdown on defense where Detroit cannot rebound or block shots in crunch time. Owners are you proud of your players? Do you enjoy writing those paychecks to those players? We fans are turned off. No progress has been made from last year to this year as far as the way the team plays ball. We don't care if the team loses games. We care about the fact that certain players should not be wearing the Piston uniform. We care that the coaching staff likes those players. We care that Joe Dumars likes those players as well. Unless you make a change, you will sell less tickets. To save money, let Prince become a player coach and bring in own assistants. Hire Laimbeer as GM.

[WTF]

11. Lawrence Frank (Detroit): Works as hard as any of his peers. Feisty. Master of strategy. Deserves a better position than coaching the nowhere Pistons.

Apparantly some think its the team and not the coach. Too a degree I would agree consudering there really hasn't been that much improvemnt to the roster overall.

Well, I for one hope Lil Larry gets himself a better position...COACHING ANYWHERE ELSE BUT HERE!!!

BTW, did you see the date on that list?...Oct. 22...before the start of the season. That list also has Woodson ranked 18th, and Mark Jackson ranked 28th. In other words, that list is ridiculously worthless.

[Only admins are allowed to see this link]

Just wanted to get you guys riled a little.

[WTF]

I want to be the last person defending Frank and clearly his play calling can be questioned but on who he decides to play He has already made it clear that the organization has dictated that. You guys need to turn that bit of anger on Joe and Gores

[WTF]

Boy were we lucky he was injured

[Grizz2]

11. Lawrence Frank (Detroit): Works as hard as any of his peers. Feisty. Master of strategy. Deserves a better position than coaching the nowhere Pistons.

Apparantly some think its the team and not the coach. Too a degree I would agree consudering there really hasn't been that much improvemnt to the roster overall.

Well, I for one hope Lil Larry gets himself a better position...COACHING ANYWHERE ELSE BUT HERE!!!

BTW, did you see the date on that list?...Oct. 22...before the start of the season. That list also has Woodson ranked 18th, and Mark Jackson ranked 28th. In other words, that list is ridiculously worthless.

[Only admins are allowed to see this link]

Just wanted to get you guys riled a little.

Woodson may be headed towards coach of the year .. and to think he was our second choice!! .. at least by Gores PR 2nd in command ... hearsay was Joe wanted him hired and sure looks like coach of the year at the moment ...

I am thinking that the Pistons will win 25 games with the current rotations and offense defense system Frank is using .. at best .... expecting more like 20 by the end .. Lottery pick protected ... Hoorah!

Starting Drummond and English would likely change our team for the better .. Singer and Jmax and Kravtsov for back ups .... Agree with you, DX!

It also bears watching whether the rest of the league's head coaches have Frank's bad match ups / weak strategies all written down in their little black books ... This is the year Frank smartly responds to what the other team is doing in terms of players and plays crunch time moves ... .or we wont likely even win 25 games this year ...

Need to see more games on TV but one reason our players MAY look like they are failing is because Frank's offense and defense systems sets them up to fail ... Need to see the games live to explain that better and will be able to do just that in a few days ...

Players playing better this year... Jmax, CV, Knight, Prince
Neither...... Stuckey, Bynum, Daye
Players playing worse... Monroe

New players who are playing and are helping the team .. Drummond and Singer

So you would think this means the team is better than last year's .. but ... Give Frank credit for players improving .. but if we are still losing .. what does that mean? I think it means the rest of the league has Frank figured out .. and he cannot handle what they are throwing at him ..

[Sparma]

Cool: "Some believe that NBA players cannot adapt to sudden changes regarding when they enter or leave a game. Isn't that pure nonsense. Only a coach who has never played the game of basketball would be that stupid."

I agree that Frank has that kind of condescending attitude. Another way in which it comes out is his constant hammering on D, as if he came up with some creative offensive ideas players would lose track of the main theme. (By contrast, I remember a post-game Doug Collins interview in which he went into considerable detail about an adjustment one of the players needed to make on offense.)

I wonder if Frank's mechanical substitutions are in part self-protective. If you make all kinds of changes and they don't work (a la Kuester), you can become the patsy in a hurry, even if the roster's a mess. By sticking close to a set formula, Frank doesn't take chances with the media (as noted, even his creative insertion of Singler persisted in part because of Stuckey's plea).

Frank looks like a guy constantly worrying (probably with good reason) that he's about to lose the respect of his players. And that likely has to do with never having put on a HS jersey, let alone having played in college or the NBA. I remember Sheed being scornful of Flip, who had merely captained his U. of Minnesota team

Contrast Frank with HOF manager Billy Martin who deployed his roster in exactly the way he felt would yield the best results, something to which so many coaches/ managers give lipservice. Sometimes that approach could be ruthless, even inhumane, as when he pulverized his Oakland starters to create another miraculous turnaround. And our own Lolich should have had a much better late career (and HOF), but for Martin's squeezing the juice out of that left arm. But in general, I admire a guy willing to follow his convictions even with backlash awaiting at every turn, particularly in the biggest media market. I get the feeling Frank tiptoes around, anxious the guys will turn on him (his use of Maggette is an example).

Incidentally, I think that partly why so many of the ideas generated hear sound good -- it's often easy to see what to do from the outside. Frank needs to enter treacherous (implicit) negotiations, especially when he eyes changes. Shouldn't Kravtsov be given some minutes when we're getting killed by offensive rebounds? Probably (unless Frank has some decisive inside info), but heaven knows what all would be involved in the lockerroom in getting him into the mix.

[Grizz2]

Boy were we lucky he was injured

the Cav pg was lucky ...

[Oracle]

You had some interesting thoughts in that post.

One that caught my eye was about how Frank is afraid to do certain things, and it rings true.

Frank is not a dumb dude, and I guarantee that if someone else was coaching this team EXACTLY the way Frank is, and Frank was a talking head on ESPN doing analysis, he'd be saying a lot of the things we're saying about the lineup.

I know he knows what to do, but it's either dangerous(to his health), or politically not doable.

The other thing was about never really playing the game. Yeah it's a big respect thing, but if you've been in as many locker rooms, for as many years as Frank, I don't that argument hold as much water as people that have played make out of it.

There are some issues he probably won't fully relate to unless he had played, but that difference exists between guys that are playing. Role players can't fully understand the super stars who have the weight of the team, the franchise and the city on their shoulders.

[Oracle]

You made a very good point about the way they hold Drummond to a standard, and let everyone else slide!

As you said, if Frank held himself to the standard he's holding Drummond, he should have fired himself before the season started

[Sparma]

The original point, by Cool, concerned coaches not getting something for not having played. I do think that can happen, but the bigger issue, I think, is one of perception. It's ludricrous to claim that Flip (having played major college ball) didn't understand something or other about basketball, but Sheed perceived him that way and, as a leader in the lockerroom, helped spread that perception.

Sometimes I pick up a sense of superiority of ex-jock media commentators over non-jocks, even though I don't hear the one commentary as superior to the other, except concerning in game experiences, like what really happens in a football pile up. I don't think, for instance, that there's any evidence of ex-jocks predicting any better than non-jocks (certainly of the Nate Silver variety).

[Oracle]

They just knocked off Miami in Miami!

The refs even tried to save Miami late in the 4th, and it didn't help, GS overcame the refs to win!

Coaching really matters, and I have new found respect for Marc Jackson, who I never thought could do what he's doing with that team!

[Oracle]

BTW, that's my biggest complaint about Frank!

I wouldn't mind losing, but anybody can see that he's not getting the most out of the talent that he has.

This team is underachieving, not overachieving, and that's all on Frank!

[merc]

This is gonna work out... certainly can understand the frustration... when it comes to building a ship contender don't expect anything resembling quick progress soon brothers... you'll only be disappointed...
Started this trip in 1965... GMs & coaches make mistakes.

[WTF]

From Free Oress
Everyone stopped far short of calling this a factor in the Pistons' 7-17 start, but Prince noted that some of the younger players are feeling the effects.

And that's understandable, considering four players in the nine-man rotation -- Brandon Knight, Andre Drummond, Greg Monroe and Kyle Singler -- are still getting accustomed to the rigors of the NBA.


I can see if it was mid season and Prince and Maggette was serving this shit up as an excuse. Stop the madness please really Greg in his 3rd season is still hitting the rookie wall and Drummond who plays 12 minutes a game most nights.

[Grizz2]

From Free Oress
Everyone stopped far short of calling this a factor in the Pistons' 7-17 start, but Prince noted that some of the younger players are feeling the effects.

And that's understandable, considering four players in the nine-man rotation -- Brandon Knight, Andre Drummond, Greg Monroe and Kyle Singler -- are still getting accustomed to the rigors of the NBA.


I can see if it was mid season and Prince and Maggette was serving this shit up as an excuse. Stop the madness please really Greg in his 3rd season is still hitting the rookie wall and Drummond who plays 12 minutes a game most nights.

Wise .. absolutely right .. sheesh .. I think I will go there and flame the writer .. Where do they come up with such BS? So .. we are hardly playing the rookies and yet .. they are tired? Wait till we start playing really good teams over the next 2 weeks .. new excuse BS is being planned as we speak ..

[Grizz2]

They just knocked off Miami in Miami!

The refs even tried to save Miami late in the 4th, and it didn't help, GS overcame the refs to win!

Coaching really matters, and I have new found respect for Marc Jackson, who I never thought could do what he's doing with that team!

Oracle .. I too had Jackson pegged as a loser .. He started out with a bunch of motivational kind of statements .. and judging by his broadcast work .. I thought .. no way would he be a good head coach but .. Anyone who makes our day and beats The Heat .. MAJOR PROPS ...

[cool breeze]

A fan who watched this last game had to be moaning when coach Frank took Drummond out of the game. And do fans get excited when the coach brings in Maggette or Charlie V? Who can coach Charlie V? Please tell me who can suddenly get Charlie to move faster or to react quicker? Who can get Charlie to at least attempt to recover when the coaching staff insists that all big men must go out beyond the free throw line to chase guards? It can't be done Joe. How about the mystery involving Stuckey. He looks like an elite athlete but he plays less then average defense and sometimes doesn't even attempt to guard anyone. Can any coach change Stuckey's approach to the game of basketball? How about Maxiell? Can the coaching staff somehow help Maxiell grow 6 inches? He sure looks like a six foot six inch player to me. WHat about Maggette? I have never liked his approach to playing defense. He has never been consistant in that area. Now he is old and has lost a lot of quickness. Can the coaching staff do something to increase the value Maggette has to this team? Can the coaching staff somehow give Monroe some type of shot that will make him more alert and help him move his feet faster? He can move fast on offense but somehow it is not possible for a big guy like Monroe to be able to defend in the paint and get defensive rebounds? It can't be done Joe. Some posters have brought up the possibility that Joe Dumars is actually dictating who plays and who sits on the bench. After all the money Dumars has shelled out he should be really upset at his players. But it doesn't seem that he is upset. Joe must really be an understanding type of executive rather than a results orientated person with the exception of players like Billups, Affalo and Budinger. Those players were not up to Joe's standards. Dumars seems to love the underdog. No executive in the NBA wants players like Charlie V. They cause more harm than good. If Charlie makes 4 or 5 three point shots in a game he will destroy the chemistry of his team's defense. I noticed that several times in this last game, Charlie was the last guy back on defense. Yet he was out beyond the 3 point line when he was standing on offense. Joe must be getting pretty fed up with his coaches. Maybe it is time for another change. The owners must really like the way Joe Dumars is handling things and they must not be upset that the Pistons have the lowest number of fans attending the games. Maybe the owners can cut out some of the entertainment to save on expenses.

[merc]

Don,
The reasons for the substitutions could have more to do with showcasing and less about strategy.
Before you say it's stupid take a look at what playing more has done for JMax's market value

[Sparma]

I'm ready to let fly with a criticism of Dumars, Cool. I seriously doubt he will make any significant trades, even though there's a crying need to do so and a market for Maxiell, Prince, and maybe even CV. His mantra's been that complete commitment to rebuilding's not the way to go, harkening back to his experience with the demise of the Bad Boys and the desolate years that followed. He's in a tough spot with Gores publicly calling for playoffs this year. By playing Maxiell, Prince, and CV there could be a bump beyond last year's record. That's a prospect that Dumars probably won't be able to resist. The alternative is to admit that his resignings of Prince, Maxiell, and CV served no particular purpose and that the easy transition he envisioned and attempted to manufacture is a counterproductive mirage.

What's the over/under on the number of trades the Pistons will make. I'm starting to feel they'll make zero trades, but maybe one is a safer guess. Let's see: Daye, Bynum, CV, Prince, and Maxiell all need to go. And Knight's best spot looks like the one Stuckey's currently occupying: combo guard sixth man, a la Jason Terry. I suspect either Stuckey or Knight will need to go before it's all said and done. So I advocate six trades, but foresee zero or one.

[WTF]

Can't keep blaming the coaching staff for the ills of the players Joe has signed and traded for. It was Joe who signed Charlie and Ben, Joe resigned Tay, Maxiell, Stuckey, Joe traded away players like Affalo and Chauncey, Joe is responsible for all of it.

Joe is holding up the development of players, dictating rotations who plays and who doesn't. It really doesn't matter who was brought in as coach of this team the results would be the same as long as Joe is involved in the direction of this team.

I don't think Frank is a dumb ass, but he just like those (Curry and Kuester) who proceeded him play the corporate political game of not ruffling the feathers of the big birds above them. He know what needs to be done but continue to serve his wicked masters (Gores and Dumars)

Frank no different than any coach, but he has a shit roster and the parts of the roster that aren't shitty are inexperienced. I hear some praising Jackson, but have you consider that really the players on that team are just fucking better than the ones we have. The same with Woodson do you really think our players are compariable to what the Knicks have on their roster.

Everyone pointing fingers all over the place and not in the right place. Give the coach the players he needs to win, give the coach a clearer direction and he'll likely take you there. Frank hasn't been given either and this whole thing reeks of the same bullshit Flip went through as we all watch the bench decline without ever being replaced.

[deusXango]

Don,
The reasons for the substitutions could have more to do with showcasing and less about strategy.
Before you say it's stupid take a look at what playing more has done for JMax's market value

Merc, this is what Sparma had to say about trade possibilities, so you'll know what I have to say is not personal but, a shared feeling.

"What's the over/under on the number of trades the Pistons will make. I'm starting to feel they'll make zero trades, but maybe one is a safer guess. Let's see: Daye, Bynum, CV, Prince, and Maxiell all need to go. And Knight's best spot looks like the one Stuckey's currently occupying: combo guard sixth man, a la Jason Terry. I suspect either Stuckey or Knight will need to go before it's all said and done. So I advocate six trades, but foresee zero or one."

If we're suffering through this painful stretch of basketball, in the name of "showcasing," at least one major trade should take place, as the result of our collective pain. Look at the worth of the players involved: Maggette ($10.5 million expiring contract), Maxiell ($5 million expiring contract and playing the best ball of his career), Daye and Bynum (salary dump fillers, ie. expiring contracts), and Jerebko (a very cost friendly contract, and a 2nd tier player player with value). That's not even including Prince and Stuckey (two of Joe's unwise resignings), who many believe should be on the trade block as well. It's a must that a trade be made by the deadline, or we've been bullshitted all along!

[Sparma]

You reminded me of Maggette. That means there's six (consensus?) guys without a future on the team: Maxiell, Prince, CV, Maggette, Bynum, and Daye. The first two have genuine trade value, the next two have marginal trade value, the last two virtually none.

Merc's made an excellent point in the past about the need for stability. I think he said you couldn't turn out half the roster (my proposal), at least you can't every year. I agree completely that you need complementary players. On a contender, I'd like to hold on to Maxiell and Prince, at least, maybe Maggette too with his uncanny ability to get to the line and CV with his capacity for spacing. Maybe/ probably some of this six will be around by the time the Pistons become halfway decent.

My contention is simply that you shouldn't build around complementary players, as Joe has done to a great extent. You identify your core, and allowing other move to be dictated by their development. Joe's nearly done the reverse (admittedly, excepting Monroe and Knight as well as Stuckey (who I don't regard as part of the core of the future)); that's topsy-turvy!

[deusXango]

Wise, in all honesty, a great number of fans have been seduced into embracing the mediocre players Joe has brought in (if fan forums are representative of fan feelings), and this hit high gear when Stuckey, a #15 pick, was anointed the face of the franchise and Billips was traded away to make room for him. First of all, in all fairness to the man, Stuckey was not a nationally recognized talent throughout his entire college career. Everything has been done to make Stuckey into something that he just can't be, and we're living with the results of that now.

The love of, and exceptance of, the mediocre had fans in great numbers against trying to trade for James Harden, when it was apparent his days in OKC were numbered; we could use him now (top 5 scorer in the NBA, and a recruiter for top talent for his team). Fans found all sorts of fault with his game, made accusations of greed (same fans who wanted to break the bank to keep Stuckey), and made predictions of failure for him once he was away from Durant and Westbrook. That's an example; look back over the trade opportunities that were poo-pooed by fans, and not made by Joe, that would have made our team better. Hell, not long ago, fans were dogging Josh Smith, and couldn't see the value he'd bring to this team!! We get what we want, and end up with what we deserve.

[merc]

DX, I do agree with you and Sparma that there needs to be a large turnover of the roster this year... but we need to get it over with and move on to building stable roster... each year expanding the playbook for a bunch of guys that have been to battle together.

[Grizz2]

Wise, in all honesty, a great number of fans have been seduced into embracing the mediocre players Joe has brought in (if fan forums are representative of fan feelings), and this hit high gear when Stuckey, a #15 pick, was anointed the face of the franchise and Billips was traded away to make room for him. First of all, in all fairness to the man, Stuckey was not a nationally recognized talent throughout his entire college career. Everything has been done to make Stuckey into something that he just can't be, and we're living with the results of that now.

The love of, and exceptance of, the mediocre had fans in great numbers against trying to trade for James Harden, when it was apparent his days in OKC were numbered; we could use him now (top 5 scorer in the NBA, and a recruiter for top talent for his team). Fans found all sorts of fault with his game, made accusations of greed (same fans who wanted to break the bank to keep Stuckey), and made predictions of failure for him once he was away from Durant and Westbrook. That's an example; look back over the trade opportunities that were poo-pooed by fans, and not made by Joe, that would have made our team better. Hell, not long ago, fans were dogging Josh Smith, and couldn't see the value he'd bring to this team!! We get what we want, and end up with what we deserve.

DX .. you were right to have wanted to move Harden to the Pistons .. and Wise is right to want Josh Smith brought to the Pistons ..

But we have no means yet of attracting them to want to play here ... It takes a star magnet player to bring more good players here .. or a remarklably highly respected head coach ... I am not pointing this out to make people here despair ... I think Drummond by himself or together with Knight and Monroe as a group .. if they are all developed properly .. we CAN get more good players to want to play here ...

Jmax, Stuckey, CV, Bynum, Magette, Daye, and Prince are reasons for good players across the NBA to NOT come here .. No one wants these players at any price ...Fire Sale Vets.. Big holes in all their games .. without a consistent positive to counter those weaknesses .. We are stuck with them .. Joe Dumars own them and owns the mistake of signing them .. There are not enough good games in them for GMs around the league to change their minds and deal for them ..

The solution is to bench them to supporting role minutes or simply CD-DNP them .. and lay the foundation for the young guys to grow together team of good young players .. If the head coach or the GM are against this .. FIRE THEM NOW ... and bring someone in who gets it .. This is not some strange new anti-HC, anti-GM rant by Grizz .. real NBA analysts have said the same thing ..

So what does Prince say? Oh .. those young guys cannot handle big minutes .. thanks Prince!

REALLY still want the other non-core young players to get more playing experience at the expense of the Fire Sale Vets ,,,, Send the Fire Sale Vets to the Mad Ants INSTEAD! Think of how Mad the Mad Ants would be then!!!!!

Not saying that the Core Three are a lock to become good players .. That depends on them and their head coach Frank. But there is the potential there .. that is why I hate taking a chance with a head coach who doesnt see himself very connected with the degree to which his players excel .. Frank often seems to think he has nothing to do with the development of the team by pointing any perceived failures back at the players ..

God how close we were to getting a good coach in Woodson, whom I didnt want back either then .. Today on my first day of vacation .. saw the Lakers - Knicks game ... Impressed how well the Knicks operated (IT IS THE HEAD COACH'S SYSTEM)even when Carmelo left the game with a twisted ankle... Kidd and Felton are an amazing backcourt that no one saw coming on like this .. I sure didnt .. Bunch of old and young guys on the Knicks but they do have talent .. and a great system Woodson developed .. Easy to see Drummond becoming as good as the Knicks' Chandler .. but not if he doesnt play big minutes early in his career ..

What is Lawrence Frank's system? Excuses, rationalizations, and blaming anyone, anything but himself .. When you dont accept responsibilty for the success and failure of your team and your players, you aint got jack ..

Now is the time to stretch the young players potential by throwing them into the fire of big time court minutes.. You gonna wait 2 or 3 years to do that Mr. HC or GM? Would be Too late by then !!!

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