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Changing the roster

Post  Oracle on Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:21 am

merc wrote:DX, I do agree with you and Sparma that there needs to be a large turnover of the roster this year... but we need to get it over with and move on to building stable roster... each year expanding the playbook for a bunch of guys that have been to battle together.

I'm of two minds on this one, and it depends on how you see where we are, where we're going, and when we expect to get there.

Case 1: The plan is to NOT make the playoffs, get the current core and rookies a years worth of development, and be extremely active in the offseason, then you don't want to make ANY moves that aren't moves that just drop into your lap.

There's no upside to adding another quality player that will surely take more development time away from your core, and you already have vets that you can shift into back seat benchers and keep everyone somewhat happy.

The advantages of this move are that you maximize the development of most youngsters with an eye towards finding out who to keep, then making the hard decisions.

Case 2: You want to win as many games as possible! You've identified the people you want to go after, and you have the disposable assets to get them, so you make your move.

This move will surely sideline all of the rookies for the rest of the year(hello Mad Ants) with the possible exception of Singler, who, if lucky will get 10 minutes/game on a good night. English & Middleton... buh bye!

The advantages of this move is that you pretty much settle on your starting 5 of the future, and you work, as OKC did, on building chemistry.

What's the best way to go? Well, it depends on factors that we can't see, and that only Joe and his staff knows.

Who's available and at what cost. What does the FA & Trade market look like next season, and what does your intelligence tell you about who to target.

Structuring the moves so that resigning your stars when their contracts come due isn't a problem. This was perfectly handled in Joe's glory years with CB, RIP, Prince, Sheed & Ben(mostly).

However, we smartly got guys around the same age with manageable salaries. Joe will have to do that again, but there's a Sliding Window, and you have to hit it in the sweet spot to make it work.

It's not easy, but it's not rocket science either. Joe just needs to draw a line in the sand and make it work!
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Fire Joe Not Frank

Post  WTF on Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:47 am

Grizz you Don and others keep blaming Frank as if this mess is something that he's created and it's not. Frank has already said he's moving in the direction that was given to him by the organization. You keep giving great praise to Woodson, but keep forgetting that Woodson has Melo, Felton, Smith, Chandler and Kidd while I'll give credit to Woodson for making it work he wouldn't have that same success if he was here.

It's not the coach that needs to be replaced its Joe that needs to be replaced.

Drummond plays 12 minutes a game because that's what the organization wants not what Frank wants, Frank wants his team to play defense, but we have players that can't play defense, politically you can't sit certain players and this isn't by Frank's choice.

For 4 seasons we screamed about over-hauling the roster and bring in 5 new players yet we still watching the same roster we've watched the past 4 seasons. Only 2 of the 5 new guys Drummond and Singler manage any
PT.

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Roster now and moving forward

Post  Phil1980boy on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:50 am

In my mind I say the Pistons should do what the OK City Thunder and the Memphis Grizzlies did. Keep drafting well, keep building and developing that young core of players.

This 2013 lotto pick combined with all the cap space the Pistons will have this summer could land the Detroit Pistons something special if Joe can pull A rabbit out his ass. I have seen him do it before and I think he can do it again. Very Happy

I see the Pistons getting this superstar player in 1 way. NBA DRAFT. Moving up via trade or land in the top 2. But the NBA Draft is the key for the Pistons.

Looking at the college game I see 2 or 3 guys who could be NBA Stars. Ben McLemore: Nice size scoring guard who moves well without the basketball and has A pure 3 Ball shot.

Shabazz Muhammad. Smooth Left hand player who can score in all types of ways. This kid has A blue collar type of game. Pistons fans would love this kid on our team along side Moose, B.K.7 and Big Drummonds.

It's still early in the NBA and NCAA Season. We will continue to look for the next great NBA player. tb

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Not sure ...

Post  Grizz2 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:07 am

WISEFAN wrote:Grizz you Don and others keep blaming Frank as if this mess is something that he's created and it's not. Frank has already said he's moving in the direction that was given to him by the organization. You keep giving great praise to Woodson, but keep forgetting that Woodson has Melo, Felton, Smith, Chandler and Kidd while I'll give credit to Woodson for making it work he wouldn't have that same success if he was here.

It's not the coach that needs to be replaced its Joe that needs to be replaced.

Drummond plays 12 minutes a game because that's what the organization wants not what Frank wants, Frank wants his team to play defense, but we have players that can't play defense, politically you can't sit certain players and this isn't by Frank's choice.

For 4 seasons we screamed about over-hauling the roster and bring in 5 new players yet we still watching the same roster we've watched the past 4 seasons. Only 2 of the 5 new guys Drummond and Singler manage any
PT.


Wise .. compelling argument ... I have kind of forced myself to not blame Joe Dumars anymore ... because of the recent drafts ...

Still wish Woodson had ended up here .. Joe Dumars wanted that to be the case but Gore and his PR guy over-ruled him .. You have to admit Woodson was the better choice and if I recall correctly .. you wanted him here ... but were OK with Frank .. I hated both ..

But hard to deny Joe has been kinda anti-young gun player development throughout his tenure

And I did promise to not get on Frank's case anymore ..

So will pipe down .. Lets see what happens ...

I still would like to do what Phillip just suggested .. Go young and start real development ... As OKC did ... Whether it is Joe or Frank or both making the call on playing the less than star vets over the younger players .... it is going to become more and more clear as the season goes on that that is what we should be doing .. as we are going to lose anyway .. and the idea anyone wants to trade for Jmax is pretty well nigh a pipe dream ..
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Actually It Was Maurice Cheeks

Post  WTF on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:09 am

That I wanted to get the coaching gig here. I had no real grips about Woodson or Frank getting the job either I thought Cheeks would connect better with the team over all. I felt both Stuckey and Knight would have benefitted a lot from Cheeks.

I think one of the craziest thing, is giving Joe credit for being in the lottery and having players fall into his lap. I hear folk say this and it's like say "Hey Great Job With Crappy Teams" being in the lottery means your team actually sucked. Joe gets no kudos from me for selecting Knight, Drummond and Monroe three players that magically dropped in the draft.

No coach is perfect and often they out think themselve or simply don't think enough during games, it's only that much harder to win games when you can't play the guys the way you want to. English was probably a better choice over Stuckey talent wise, but Stuckey 8 Million a season say's otherwise, just like Charlie 7 Million, Tay 7 Million, Jason 5 Million and Maggette 10 Million dictate they play. This wouldn't change no matter would was coaching.


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No More Freshmen Draft Picks

Post  WTF on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:40 am

Phil1980boy wrote:In my mind I say the Pistons should do what the OK City Thunder and the Memphis Grizzlies did. Keep drafting well, keep building and developing that young core of players.

This 2013 lotto pick combined with all the cap space the Pistons will have this summer could land the Detroit Pistons something special if Joe can pull A rabbit out his ass. I have seen him do it before and I think he can do it again. Very Happy

I see the Pistons getting this superstar player in 1 way. NBA DRAFT. Moving up via trade or land in the top 2. But the NBA Draft is the key for the Pistons.

Looking at the college game I see 2 or 3 guys who could be NBA Stars. Ben McLemore: Nice size scoring guard who moves well without the basketball and has A pure 3 Ball shot.

Shabazz Muhammad. Smooth Left hand player who can score in all types of ways. This kid has A blue collar type of game. Pistons fans would love this kid on our team along side Moose, B.K.7 and Big Drummonds.

It's still early in the NBA and NCAA Season. We will continue to look for the next great NBA player. tb


We don't need another freshmen being drafted so you all can spend the next 4 seasons making excuses for them while they're stinking up the joint trying to learn. These two don't smell like the next Kobe or Lebron so let someone have at them.

Before it all said and done Trey Burke will be a Top 10 Selection if he decides to come out. Yes he's only 6"0 but he is a pure PG kinda reminds you of a Stephen Curry that can actually plays the PG. The more I watch Knight the more I think Combo Guard and this madness needs to stop.

If we are not going to draft a pure PG then we need to go with another big
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Fire Joe Not Frank

Post  deusXango on Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:56 pm

WISEFAN wrote:Grizz you Don and others keep blaming Frank as if this mess is something that he's created and it's not. Frank has already said he's moving in the direction that was given to him by the organization. You keep giving great praise to Woodson, but keep forgetting that Woodson has Melo, Felton, Smith, Chandler and Kidd while I'll give credit to Woodson for making it work he wouldn't have that same success if he was here.

It's not the coach that needs to be replaced its Joe that needs to be replaced.

Drummond plays 12 minutes a game because that's what the organization wants not what Frank wants, Frank wants his team to play defense, but we have players that can't play defense, politically you can't sit certain players and this isn't by Frank's choice.

For 4 seasons we screamed about over-hauling the roster and bring in 5 new players yet we still watching the same roster we've watched the past 4 seasons. Only 2 of the 5 new guys Drummond and Singler manage any
PT.


Wise, this is out of the mouth of a known lier!!! Don't believe the hype. I can, and do, respect your dislike for Joe Dumars but, to totally absolve Lil' Larry of gross mismanagement of talent, and to say any coach we had would be doing just what he's doing, because of Joe, is ludicrous. Anyone who was for the hiring of Lil' Larry, chances are, they just wanted experience after Curry and Kuester, and totally forgot about that stink bomb Lil' Larry dropped in Jersey. They thought it unimaginable for him to be worse than his two predecessors. They were wrong!

Let me get this right bro', Drummond's PT from night to night is determined by Gores, his PR team, and Dumars, not Lil' Larry? Lil' Larry wants to play defense with a none defensive team? A true testament to his lack of genius. The whole problem with fan disension is based on him politicing a lot, and coaching a little. Lil' Larry is vain, wants the title of HC, and looks at Detroit as a medium of payment while reaching his selfish little goals. Yeah, fire Joe but, fire "Opie" as well!!!!
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Fire Joe Not Frank

Post  WTF on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:59 pm

deusXango wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:Grizz you Don and others keep blaming Frank as if this mess is something that he's created and it's not. Frank has already said he's moving in the direction that was given to him by the organization. You keep giving great praise to Woodson, but keep forgetting that Woodson has Melo, Felton, Smith, Chandler and Kidd while I'll give credit to Woodson for making it work he wouldn't have that same success if he was here.

It's not the coach that needs to be replaced its Joe that needs to be replaced.

Drummond plays 12 minutes a game because that's what the organization wants not what Frank wants, Frank wants his team to play defense, but we have players that can't play defense, politically you can't sit certain players and this isn't by Frank's choice.

For 4 seasons we screamed about over-hauling the roster and bring in 5 new players yet we still watching the same roster we've watched the past 4 seasons. Only 2 of the 5 new guys Drummond and Singler manage any
PT.


Wise, this is out of the mouth of a known lier!!! Don't believe the hype. I can, and do, respect your dislike for Joe Dumars but, to totally absolve Lil' Larry of gross mismanagement of talent, and to say any coach we had would be doing just what he's doing, because of Joe, is ludicrous. Anyone who was for the hiring of Lil' Larry, chances are, they just wanted experience after Curry and Kuester, and totally forgot about that stink bomb Lil' Larry dropped in Jersey. They thought it unimaginable for him to be worse than his two predecessors. They were wrong!

Let me get this right bro', Drummond's PT from night to night is determined by Gores, his PR team, and Dumars, not Lil' Larry? Lil' Larry wants to play defense with a none defensive team? A true testament to his lack of genius. The whole problem with fan disension is based on him politicing a lot, and coaching a little. Lil' Larry is vain, wants the title of HC, and looks at Detroit as a medium of payment while reaching his selfish little goals. Yeah, fire Joe but, fire "Opie" as well!!!!

I don't know DX Lil Larry didn't mince words when he said "If the direction of the team was to develope he would but that's not what he is being asked to do". I think that would be a blatant out right lie by Frank if not true. But why would Joe not immediately deny it?

Joe made the mistake of initially saying that Drummond would be brought along slowly so now Frank gets to BS around with Drummond minutes. I don't think Frank is that dumb to hold back Drummond and Krastsov all on his own without Joe's approval.
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Off Topic And Excuse My Words

Post  WTF on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:24 pm

but how fuck up one must be to shot your own mother and then fire on young innocent babies. This world is sick and going to hell in a hand basket and it's moments like this that are happening far to often that make me look to heaven and say God take our asses out and end this senseless shit.

I just don't know what we can do to stop this dumb stuff, I don't advocate taking everyone guns away but we need to find a way to keep them out of the hands of criminals, the mentally ill, the irresponsibles and those that intend harm.

I can't imagine what the parents of these 20 innocent kids are feeling, I would be sick to my fucking stomach, I'm sick now just thinking about it and my heart really hurts. KIDS JUST HAVE TOO MUCH FUCKING FREEDOM AND I BEG PEOPLE PLEASE KICK YOUR KIDS ASSES STOP THAT DUMB ASS PAMPERING OF THEM, STOP THINKING IT'S OKAY NOT TO DISCIPLINE THEM, STOP TRYING TO BUY THEIR LOVE, STOP LETTING THEM RAISE THEMSELVE AND START PAYING MORE ATTENTION TO THEM, STOP MAKING EXCUSE FOR THEIR BAD BEHAVIOR, STOP THINKING YOUR KIDS ARE ALWAYS GOOD KID. LOCK YOUR FIREARMS AWAY, START RAISING YOUR KIDS THE WAY YOU'RE SUPPOSE TO

My heart hurts, and it weeps for all those defenseless babies and adults. The guns were register to the mom, why weren't they locked away? This mom was irresponsible, why wasn't these gun equpied with trigger locks, why didn't she see this coming. There had to be signs...this hurts bad real bad
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I'm Sorry But This Has Me All Messed Up

Post  WTF on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:40 pm

Please forgive my angry rant
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Gun Control is the ONLY answer

Post  Oracle on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:58 pm

I saw this on Twitter today,

@GMegalogenis: Australia suffered 13 mass murders between 1981 and 1996. In the 16 years since our gun law reforms: zero. No more excuses please America.
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Just For Don

Post  WTF on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:25 pm

Villanueva -- somewhat deservingly and somewhat not -- has become a target of scorn during the Pistons’ struggles the last few seasons. He has been overpaid (not his fault), underwhelming (partially his fault) and disinterested in making the effort plays necessary to win (his fault).

It seems, every year, he pledges that he’s in better shape and more motivated, but the results never show it. Villanueva, I guess because of injury and vague excuses the Pistons gave, played in just 13 games last season, and it seemed better that way. Out of sight, out of mind.

But Villanueva already has played in 14 games this season, because -- well, because he has deserved it.

I can’t claim Villanueva suddenly has become an exceptionally good player, and the ship on him living up to his five-year, $37.7-million contract has long sailed. But for the first time, Villanueva is really helping the Pistons’ offense.

In the last three seasons, he has scored at a remarkably similar rate: 18.1, 18.1 and 18.2 points per 36 minutes.

This year, that number has fallen to 17.7. But for the first time, the Pistons score considerably more while he plays.

With Villanueva on the court, the Pistons score 109.1 points per 100 possessions.

With Villanueva off the court, the Pistons score 98.3 points per 100 possessions.

So why has Villanueva helped Detroit’s offense while his scoring has slipped? There are two major reasons:

1. He’s playing more unselfishly than ever.

2. He’s more focused on three-pointers than ever.

Many backups -- especially backups who don’t play regularly, and among them, especially Villanueva -- tend to shoot wantonly when they play. They have so little opportunity to boost their scoring average, they don’t waste time when they get a chance.

Villanueva, though, looks like a willing passer this year, and the numbers support that perception.

His usage percentage -- the percentage of possessions while he’s on the court that end with him shooting, getting to the free-throw line or turning the ball over -- is a career low. And his assists per minutes are a career high.

His three-point percentage, 40.4, also is a career high. I don’t really expect him to continue to shoot so well from outside the arc, considering his career three-point percentage is 34.8. But Villanueva can keep shooting three-pointers just as often.

For the first time, a majority of Villanueva’s shots are three-pointers – 57% of them, at that. Throughout his career, Villanueva has been a more efficient three-point shooter than two-point shooter, so in that simple sense, he’s taking better shots.

Villanueva’s outside shooting also helps space the floor. A majority of his minutes come with Rodney Stuckey, Corey Maggette and Andre Drummond -- three players who score best near the rim. When those four play together, the Pistons’ offense is even better than when examining Villanueva’s minutes in isolation. In fact, that four-man lineup has the best offensive rating of any Pistons foursome that has played at least 90 minutes together.

Of course, this entire article has focused on Villanueva’s offense. At this point, if he’s a positive only on that end, I’ll take it.

Villanueva is usually a disinterested defender, never a good one. He’s also not a very good rebounder for his position.

As limited as he is, it’s possible he has played well enough to avoid being amnestied this summer.

Amnestying a player to clear cap room is expensive, because not only must his team pay the amnestied player, it must pay his replacement. Essentially, amnestying Villanueva would cost the Pistons up to double Villanueva’s salary next season.

Attendance for Pistons games is low, and that hurts the team’s profits. Plus, Villanueva is no longer a useless player. It might be just the right combination to keep him in Detroit one more year.

Perhaps, Villanueva’s production will tail off. He has played just 210 minutes this season, a pretty small sample.

But that, unlike the other side of the amnesty equation, is out of our control.

So, fans, get to the Palace for a win-win. This is your chance to watch Villanueva play well. And if you buy enough tickets, you’ll never have to watch him again.
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UPON ENTERING THE GAME, WITHIN 5 SECONDS OF EACH OTHER

Post  Grizz2 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:07 pm

Drummond with an offensive rebound stuff .. and CV blocks a shot!!
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God Magette SUCKS

Post  Grizz2 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:13 pm

He cannot defend .. right off the bat ... gets driven on for a score and fouls on 2 consequtive possessions... MAD ANTS Twisted Evil Bring English back in his place .. Joe Dumars .. why didnt you just amnesty Ben Gordon!??

and Johnson burns him for 2 more baskets since then .. #'##&%&"#~#$ Mad

FINALLY .. Frank takes him out!

But the damage has been done ...

Mad Ant this old man ..
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I'm Sorry But This Has Me All Messed Up

Post  deusXango on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:27 pm

WISEFAN wrote:Please forgive my angry rant

Wise, don't you dare apologize for one single word of the truth!!! I stand firmly with you on this if nobody else will. I really thought you were kind.
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Moroe and Drummond together

Post  Grizz2 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:24 pm

...on the court .. at the same time ... and playing well together ..

Coach Frank .. why the hell was that so difficult? Do this for the rest of your career as a head coach and you will have a career as a head coach ..
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Moroe and Drummond together

Post  Oracle on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:39 pm

Grizz2 wrote:...on the court .. at the same time ... and playing well together ..

Coach Frank .. why the hell was that so difficult? Do this for the rest of your career as a head coach and you will have a career as a head coach ..

True, but you really want the Russian playing against Lopez!

Good game, Pistons competitive in the 4th against a superior team(on paper).
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Frank goes to an effective zone defense

Post  Grizz2 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:47 pm

Good job Coach!
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Prince with the turnover ..

Post  Grizz2 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:53 pm

Damn Prince .. you are supposed to be a VET .. too big a comeback to let this game slip away ..
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IF

Post  Grizz2 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:58 pm

Drummond had been there .. he would have gotten that last offensive rebound that went to Wallace for the dunk ... Jmax is too small ... jesus christ Frank ... So now there is OT ...
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Too bad ..

Post  Grizz2 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:04 pm

..the referees .. and official scorer f-up the call on the 24 second violation ... even though the ball Drummond DID hit the rim .. Game should be over ... with a Piston win .. That SUCKS!
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Stuckey

Post  Grizz2 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:16 pm

.. some real nice plays in OT ... redemption ..
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Frank did a good job this game ..

Post  Grizz2 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:16 pm

... made good moves throughout the game ..

except more Drummond means we get some key rebounds .. like the one with 22 seconds left that Wallace got.. and led to the tie at 100!
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Monroe Chokes at the FT Line

Post  Oracle on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:40 pm

Two really bad misses... get your ass back in the gym!!!
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Monroe Chokes Twice

Post  WTF on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:52 pm

Oracle wrote:Two really bad misses... get your ass back in the gym!!!

He also choked at the end of regulation fumbling the freaking ball and looking confused. We should have won then. Damn you could see choke all in his face on that last FT.
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