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Post  Sparma on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:56 pm

Good discussion concerning Monroe.

Here's what I would do as Detroit coach (under fire). First, I'd insist on the importance of situational subbing. Secondly, I'd play Drummond 24-30 minutes at C, moving Monroe to PF. Thirdly, I'd give Kravtsov a shot at backup center. Fourthly, I'd give Monroe some minutes at C, particularly if Kravtsov falters. Going back to (1) I'd feature a rotation of genuine big men (D, M, K) on those nights when it's predictable we going to getting killed on the offensive boards. If it's looks like there's too much of an offensive cost of having D&K split center and moving Monroe from the basket, I'd give more minutes to Monroe subbing at C against smaller line ups, trying to get Maxiell time then as well.

If I were the Pistons GM, I'd simplify the coach's life, by trading Maxiell for a 2nd rounder asap, forcing the coach to move to the intended 3 man big rotation. A side effect would be that CV could get some minutes helping with spacing on the second unit at PF as well. If I could trade CV, all the better, bring Jerebko back into the picture. I'd try to clarify the picture, by trading Maggette as well, taking a late 2nd rounder and an expiring contract. And while Prince has been valuable this, I'd be happy to trade him for a late 1st rounder, letting Jerebko function as backup to Monroe at PF while also getting some minutes at SF.

Back to Monroe. If I were GM on another team and was thinking of how best to use him if he were on my team, I'd think of Monroe as a valuable but also deficient center. I'd try to acquire him if I had a guy like Okur on the roster who could move to the outside on O, allowing Monroe to operate on the low post on O; the two play together on defense some of the time (although both would be slow!), rotating down low on defense.

In the longterm, Monroe will likely dictate his own position. If he develops a midrange shot, he's playing PF and operating on the high post for sure. If he becomes superstrong but even slower, he'll need to play center.

One thing I wouldn't do: offer him a max contract for 5 years. Not the way he's playing, not the way the Pistons roster looks (with D and K). Wouldn't want to lose him, but he's going to need lots of help, so I wouldn't want to give him a massive contract that prevent a balanced roster.
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Worries by Monroe & about Monroe

Post  Sparma on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:27 pm

Monroe: "I'm not in positions I'm normally in to be successful."

From The Detroit News: [Only admins are allowed to see this link]
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Monroe

Post  WTF on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:36 pm

My thoughts as of today is that Monroe will be a decent player in this league, but a Max Contract Guy? I don't think so at least not right now. IMO I think he can accomplish both more speed and more strength if he sticks with Kander both can be improved.

My concern is that what he goes through on the court is more mental than it is physical and would have to agree with Don on his comments of it being half cowardly/lazy and not wanting to put a body on anyone. At least freaking learn to box out I'm always saying how the guards need to watch old film of Zeke and Chauncy, well Monroe needs to watch old film of Bill (who couldn't jump an full inch but won a few rebounding titles) Bill was also a darn good defender (defended and held his own against every center in the league) during his time.

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Monroe

Post  lemonpen on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:55 pm

A small caveat to my "soft" comment would be that it is mearly a snapshot of him today. Monroe is very talented, smart and hungry, and over time will learn to better use that talent. He isn't devoid of athleticism, but dosen't yet make the most productive use of that part of his makeup. I believe / hope GM will raise the agressiveness that he approaches the game with on an as needed basis.
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Cavs game

Post  lemonpen on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:01 pm

Anyone notice LF shortened his 2nd half rotation to 8 by sitting Cory. Could Cory be the next odd man out for a while. Hopefully Kim's time has come.
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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:25 pm

LP, I hope you're right about Mags being on his way out... at this stage most teams have a handle on the quality of their roster (minus teams with major injuries)...
Expecting to see a few trades pop up soon.... all I ask is that we move the expirings before the deadline instead of standing in line for table scraps this summer.
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Sparma

Post  WTF on Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:19 pm

Sparma wrote:Monroe: "I'm not in positions I'm normally in to be successful."

From The Detroit News: [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

This sounds like there's a disconnect between coach and player on how things should be done. Hope this doesn't turn ugly.
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TIME WILL TELL

Post  deusXango on Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:50 pm

The success of this team begins and ends with the coach and his staff; I've read posters rip our players for the past couple of weeks, and the common thread is, they play confused or with lack of the ability we know they have....I'm of the mind that Lil' Larry and his coaching staff is in over their collective heads when it comes to teaching and developing the young talent we have. The players can watch film all day, and listen to Lil' Larry preach about defense first but, until they're taken aside and taught the intricacies of their pro positions (and breaking the bad habits of not practicing fundamentals they missed in college, ie. Knight and Drummond), the play on the floor will be helter-skelter.

Lil' Larry has gone on the record saying, he doesn't teach the player(s) that's lagging behind; he put his message out there for the most intelligent, and let the rest catch up. Doesn't he understand that "a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link?" These young men are multi-milion dollar investments, and deserve to be groomed as such. That shouldn't be open to debate!

I've also read that "Frank will start Drummond when he's ready." Who the hell is the "he" being reffered to, Frank or Drummond? If it's Drummond, he's ready! Why did we spend 2X's what we were paying Macklin (who sat the bench), for Kravtsov (who sits the bench)? Is this on Dumars and David, or Lil' Larry and his staff? I know Joe signed him but, this entire coaching staff can't find a use for an athletic 7 foot, shot-blocking, rebounding, foul machine? Those qualities would trump a deaf-mute, so the language barrier doesn't fly. English impressed Pistons fans (for the most part) with his hard-nosed defensive play, from Summer League on, and his shooting prowess speaks for itself but, when our SG could no longer shot, he was replaced with a SF (who did not impress with his defense), and English disappeared into DNP-CD land. All we know about Middleton is that he seemed to be getting better and better, with each opportunity given him, then Maggette got well....no Middleton. Jerebko is suddenly in the "doghouse" (that's what it is in all actually), and we have no idea if Daye has come out of his coma....CV was given a shot after his horrific start, why not Daye?

I don't think Daye has what it takes, and I feel Jerebko should be traded but, the only reason I bring them up is because they're young, and we drafted them; until they're gone, they should be groomed and nurtured. I look at the rotation being used and we're still playing players out of position, and it's no longer neccessary. I'm not criticizing for the hell of it, I'm sharing observations made without the benefit of rose colored glasses.
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Lemon & Wise

Post  Oracle on Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:10 pm

"A small caveat to my "soft" comment would be that it is mearly a snapshot of him today. Monroe is very talented, smart and hungry, and over time will learn to better use that talent. He isn't devoid of athleticism, but dosen't yet make the most productive use of that part of his makeup. I believe / hope GM will raise the agressiveness that he approaches the game with on an as needed basis." - Lemonpen

"My thoughts as of today is that Monroe will be a decent player in this league, but a Max Contract Guy? I don't think so at least not right now. IMO I think he can accomplish both more speed and more strength if he sticks with Kander both can be improved.

My concern is that what he goes through on the court is more mental than it is physical and would have to agree with Don on his comments of it being half cowardly/lazy and not wanting to put a body on anyone. At least freaking learn to box out I'm always saying how the guards need to watch old film of Zeke and Chauncy, well Monroe needs to watch old film of Bill (who couldn't jump an full inch but won a few rebounding titles) Bill was also a darn good defender (defended and held his own against every center in the league) during his time."
- Wise

Both of you guys reflect my same thinking, that's why in my post I said the Monroe is smart, and he will learn how to adjust.

Also, as Lemon said, this is a snapshot, because in his previous 2 years, this wasn't an issue, and Monroe did get better as the season progressed.

I just feel that he needs to recognize that he MUST put more work in to get the results he expects.

One other factor that may be affecting his game is the rise of Knight and the improved contributions of Prince. Let's face it, the NBA is a "zero sum game", meaning that there are only so many points to go around, and if Prince & Knight up their share of the available points, somebody's share is going to go down.
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Oracle

Post  WTF on Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:57 pm

I don't know about the Zere Sum Game because he's still getting the same numbers of attempts, he just not hitting them largely in part because how passive he's been around the basket. I'm more bother by that lack of effort on the boards and the TO's.

I'm hoping he can shake this because it all seems to be mental at this point. I think opposing teams have figure him out now. He came from out of nowhere his rookie season and with the shorten season the following year he went un-noticed. Seems now everyone has decided to attack him.
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Wise

Post  Sparma on Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:34 pm

What it sounds like to me is that Monroe's complaining about getting moved away from the basket, just at the time when most of us hope he sags off a bit on O to make room for Drummond who can't play away from the basket. Hope I'm wrong, but it's a worrisome comment.

WISEFAN wrote:
Sparma wrote:Monroe: "I'm not in positions I'm normally in to be successful."

From The Detroit News: [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

This sounds like there's a disconnect between coach and player on how things should be done. Hope this doesn't turn ugly.
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Zero sum game

Post  Oracle on Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:15 pm

WISEFAN wrote:I don't know about the Zere Sum Game because he's still getting the same numbers of attempts, he just not hitting them largely in part because how passive he's been around the basket. I'm more bother by that lack of effort on the boards and the TO's.

I'm hoping he can shake this because it all seems to be mental at this point. I think opposing teams have figure him out now. He came from out of nowhere his rookie season and with the shorten season the following year he went un-noticed. Seems now everyone has decided to attack him.

Wise, it's PHYSICS, if the team is going to score on any average you care to pick, this will be true!

If someone scores more, someone elses contribution is needed less.

Coaches(at least smart ones) refine it a bit more. They're looking for X-number of points per position, and plan their use of defensive/offensive players based on those needs.

You have to remember one thing... There's only one ball!
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Sparma

Post  Oracle on Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:25 pm

Sparma wrote:What it sounds like to me is that Monroe's complaining about getting moved away from the basket, just at the time when most of us hope he sags off a bit on O to make room for Drummond who can't play away from the basket. Hope I'm wrong, but it's a worrisome comment.

WISEFAN wrote:
Sparma wrote:Monroe: "I'm not in positions I'm normally in to be successful."

From The Detroit News: [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

This sounds like there's a disconnect between coach and player on how things should be done. Hope this doesn't turn ugly.

That's a good pickup on your part, but this is normal and to be expected!

The problem is as we've stated, Monroe needs to be a PF, but his game is based on being in the low post. The problem is that Drummond(or any other low post center) needs to be there too.

This means that to be successful, Monroe must diversify his game, and that takes time and as humans, we don't like change!

He will have to figure out how to get that midrange jumper working, and how best to share the post with Drummond.

It's all possible, but there will be some disruption that will make players uncomfortable... that's the bad news.

The good news is that it's better to do this now and get it right, and more than likely miss the playoffs, than to put it off.

I think we may have to back off of Frank & Joe, because they may be doing the hard but methodically right thing, by building and developing this team the right way.

If you truly believe in the talent that you have, then this is the absolute right approach. If you question any of the big 3, then it's somewhat of a gamble, but I don't see the risk as being large in our case!
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Zero sum game

Post  WTF on Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:28 pm

Oracle wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:I don't know about the Zere Sum Game because he's still getting the same numbers of attempts, he just not hitting them largely in part because how passive he's been around the basket. I'm more bother by that lack of effort on the boards and the TO's.

I'm hoping he can shake this because it all seems to be mental at this point. I think opposing teams have figure him out now. He came from out of nowhere his rookie season and with the shorten season the following year he went un-noticed. Seems now everyone has decided to attack him.

Wise, it's PHYSICS, if the team is going to score on any average you care to pick, this will be true!

If someone scores more, someone elses contribution is needed less.

Coaches(at least smart ones) refine it a bit more. They're looking for X-number of points per position, and plan their use of defensive/offensive players based on those needs.

You have to remember one thing... There's only one ball!

Oracle true if Monroe attempts are fewer, but it's his shooting percentage that has shrunk in the past few games. I could be wrong and his attempts might have slipped some, but if indeed the case than he needs to pick his game up in other areas (More Rebounds and Less TO's)
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Sparma and Oracle

Post  WTF on Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:42 pm

I guess ideally having Monroe play the High Post and Drummond down low would seem the way to go, but I don't see where they can't both function in the post together. Drummond isn't or hasn't really defined an offensive presence in the low post as of yet and basically scores off miss shots and alley oops. Drummond doesn't need the space to score he'll continue to get his points as he been getting them.

Don't get me wrong because Monroe needs to expand on his range just to keep defenses on their toes, but if he's more comfortable in the low post I say let him play there. Many bigs have shared the low post and functioned well together.

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Drummond and Monroe

Post  WTF on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:01 pm

Frontcourts not that much different than a Drummond and Monroe frontcourt. Sampson and Olajuwon, Parrish and Mchale, or Duncan and Robinson. When you look at the forwards in many of the pairings with exception of Duncan later on had about average mid-range games and spent a lot of time sharing the post with the centers.

What made it work for them is they all had exceptional PG play and a helluva wing player which we don't really have at the moment. Now I won't call Drummond and Monroe a Sampson and Olajuwon or a Duncan and Robinson but they at least can be a Mchale and Parrish and share the post.

I'm sure I can come up similiar bigs that shared the low post together and did so effectively.
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Reaching Further Back In My 80's and 90's Bag

Post  WTF on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:17 pm

I have to add Chris Webber and Vlade Divac and Kareem and Worthy. Now Monroe no Worthy speed wise, Worthy did most of his damage in the post and so did Kareem together okay maybe this unfair so I'll go Vlade and C-Webb another duo in the post. Maybe Monroe needs to find his inner Worthy and Webber at least his inner C-Webb.
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You're missing the facts

Post  Oracle on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:19 pm

WISEFAN wrote:
Oracle true if Monroe attempts are fewer, but it's his shooting percentage that has shrunk in the past few games. I could be wrong and his attempts might have slipped some, but if indeed the case than he needs to pick his game up in other areas (More Rebounds and Less TO's)

You're not getting it, his attempts mean absolutely nothing to the zero sum game!

If he made those attempts, then someone elses points MUST go down on average... it's physics!
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Dang I'm Reaching

Post  WTF on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:21 pm

But even Webber and Howard effectively shared the post together in both college and the NBA.
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You're missing the facts

Post  WTF on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:34 pm

Oracle wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:
Oracle true if Monroe attempts are fewer, but it's his shooting percentage that has shrunk in the past few games. I could be wrong and his attempts might have slipped some, but if indeed the case than he needs to pick his game up in other areas (More Rebounds and Less TO's)

You're not getting it, his attempts mean absolutely nothing to the zero sum game!

If he made those attempts, then someone elses points MUST go down on average... it's physics!

No I get what your saying Oracle and would agree 100% if there was a set amount of points to be had, or a set amount of attempts to be made. So I'm looking at from the perspective of points being lost not shot are being distribute differently.

I won't completely wash away the Zero Sum because it does have some impact, but if Tay has 15 attempts and makes 10 and Monroe has 15 attempt and makes only 5 is that the result of the Zero Sum Game. I could be wrong on this but what I see is the difference between scoring 80 point or scoring 110 points. But I get your point on because maybe if Monroe makes 10 of those attempt Tay shoots less and vesa versa.
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You're missing the facts

Post  Oracle on Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:18 pm

After this I'll leave it alone, but there is a FIXED set of points... they call it the average points per game a team scores!

You can move that number around a few points, but it remains pretty much a constant!

I think you're confusing what happens per game. Yeah, stuff can fluctuate widly on a per game basis, but you have to take the longer view.

That's where the real judgements and action is!
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Stones v Sixers

Post  lemonpen on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:11 pm

Good game going on here. Lets see how much we have learned about getin er done in crunch time.
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Knight was totally embarrassed!

Post  Oracle on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:46 pm

You might have sworn that Allen Iverson of 10 years ago was faking Knight out!

WOW!!! When you make someone's lifetime highlight reel on national TV, you have to have some bad dreams!
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It was a good game

Post  Oracle on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:19 pm

lemonpen wrote:Good game going on here. Lets see how much we have learned about getin er done in crunch time.

They couldn't get it done in crunch time, and it was certainly there for the taking, but that will change.

The producers and role players are quickly revealing themselves! Singler is fading fast, even as he continues to play right, but not effectively.

Stuckey(19pts), Knight(22pts), who will likely be the leading scorer for the team, Monroe(22pts), in a bounce back, and Prince(16pts).

Of course, I would like to see a shakeup in the starting lineup that most here won't like, but I think would produce the best starting 5 we could deploy.

Stuckey(PG on offense, SG on defense), Knight(SG on offense, PG on defense), Prince, Maxiell(until Drummond is ready), and Monroe.
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Maybe some here will quit when they get beat on a play

Post  Grizz2 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:19 pm

Oracle wrote:You might have sworn that Allen Iverson of 10 years ago was faking Knight out!

WOW!!! When you make someone's lifetime highlight reel on national TV, you have to have some bad dreams!

Oracle .. if you are wimp .. you will be embarrassed by getting beat on a play .. if you have any guts at all, you pick yourself up and go out and keep battling .. ever harder than before .. Knight is the later case ..
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