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Ben Gordon

Post  Oracle on Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:23 pm

I'll be the first to say that Gordon looked GREAT!!! I'm actually glad for him!

But using that performance as a case that the deal was bad, is, well, just BAD!

We know, or should know all we need to know about Gordon from his time here, and one game isn't going to erase that from the memory of this Piston fan!

How is it that one game changed the fact that the Bobcats are the absolute worst team in tha association?

Has Gordon grown 6 inches, and is able to play better defense?

Come on, he was highly motivated to do well, and his mates had his back!

In short, they wanted this game a LOT more than our guys did, and it showed!

Ben Gordon is a waste for us, and probably is for Charolette as well in the long term. Don't get so excited, LOL!


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Trade

Post  lemonpen on Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:31 pm

Sparma wrote:Thanks, Grizz. Lots of trade analysis before and after the trade.

I heard the interview with the coach too, Cool. Nice analysis. I do think he had a good game plan although there was also luck involved, considering that Prince and CV's shots fell beautifully in the first half.

In order to try to reverse positions and attempt to defend the Charlotte trade, I'd need to reconstruct Joe's thought processes as follows:

Joe's sitting around in 2011 reflecting on the errors of his ways. He still thinks he was right to gather a huge pot of money after the Billups trade, but he realizes he made a mistake by breaking the money up for two good players, rather than for one star. He knows Gordon's coming off the books in 2014 at 11 mil. He also knows Maxiell's coming off in '13 at 5 mil, Bynum at 3, and Daye at 2. In addition, he knows CV can be amnestied in '13 at 7 mil [numbers from memory].

He's under pressure from the owner. What if he could swing a big trade, going along with Gores's playoff dreams? The owner's giving him a bit of breathing room for now. He decides to go for it, taking BG's 11 off, by way of Magette, for '13. Adding 10 for the other three, he's down 21 mil. In addition, he thinks he can convince Gores to go for the big splash by amnestying CV at 7. That reduces his budget by 28 mil in '13. Considering commitments coming, he realizes he won't be quite that far under the cap, but he'll still be in a position to be an enormous player in the summer '13 market. That's far more valuable than being moderately under 2 years running.

Being the biggest (?) player in '13 opens tremendous possibilities. He could add a max salary free agent (Josh Smith?) or maybe swing a trade for a near max guy (Rudy Gay?) who's really good but not valued as highly by his team as at the time of signing. With time running out, not wanting his late legacy to be signing two underachieving free agents, he goes for broke.

The price: a first rounder. If all breaks for the team they make the playoffs in '13 and in a relatively weak draft, they don't give up that much. But his sights are really set on the 2013-'14 season. With another lottery pick and a really good player added by free agency or trade, he expects 45 wins, maybe even the 50 which he once thought were his birthright. He cuts the deal with his rival and friendly acquaintance, expecting the loss of a pick circa 20 in '14 not to be that big a deal.

And he lived happily ever after.


Just one other consideration. If we don't make a qualifying offer to Daye we will be roughly 20 mil under the cap. In addition to outright signing of free agents, teams under the cap can also make seemingly one sided trades that bring considerably more salary than surrendered. It allows us to pawn off draft picks or inexpensive redundant guys for big talent.
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An odd, odd world

Post  Sparma on Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:00 pm

Evidently I do require extra help, Oracle. And yes, many of the things I write would be exceedingly odd if they were as you represent them.

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True

Post  Grizz2 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:12 pm

Oracle wrote:I'll be the first to say that Gordon looked GREAT!!! I'm actually glad for him!

But using that performance as a case that the deal was bad, is, well, just BAD!

We know, or should know all we need to know about Gordon from his time here, and one game isn't going to erase that from the memory of this Piston fan!

How is it that one game changed the fact that the Bobcats are the absolute worst team in tha association?

Has Gordon grown 6 inches, and is able to play better defense?

Come on, he was highly motivated to do well, and his mates had his back!

In short, they wanted this game a LOT more than our guys did, and it showed!

Ben Gordon is a waste for us, and probably is for Charolette as well in the long term. Don't get so excited, LOL!

Oracle .. that is all true as you say .. but as I already posted .. Think back a year ago .. or over the past few years .. wouldnt "failure" describe Daye, CV, Jmax, Bynum, and Stuckey to a perfect T??? If they can change due to Frank's inspiring head coaching or Drummond being in the game, why not Ben Gordon? We stink too and are not much better than the Bobcats .. We are going to need every draft pick we can get and really the opposite should be happening .. Joe Dumars should be COLLECTING DRAFT PICKS .. not giving them away .. What FA wants to come here without being overpaid like CV and BG were? Develop a core of good rookies FIRST and then maybe a decent FA at a fair price will want to play here ... Why give away a draft pick if you dont need to? Amnesty the guy or make him sit on the bench just as Magette is and we still keep the draft pick ..
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Why not Gordon?

Post  Oracle on Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:42 pm

Grizz2 wrote:
Oracle wrote:I'll be the first to say that Gordon looked GREAT!!! I'm actually glad for him!

But using that performance as a case that the deal was bad, is, well, just BAD!

We know, or should know all we need to know about Gordon from his time here, and one game isn't going to erase that from the memory of this Piston fan!

How is it that one game changed the fact that the Bobcats are the absolute worst team in tha association?

Has Gordon grown 6 inches, and is able to play better defense?

Come on, he was highly motivated to do well, and his mates had his back!

In short, they wanted this game a LOT more than our guys did, and it showed!

Ben Gordon is a waste for us, and probably is for Charolette as well in the long term. Don't get so excited, LOL!

Oracle .. that is all true as you say .. but as I already posted .. Think back a year ago .. or over the past few years .. wouldnt "failure" describe Daye, CV, Jmax, Bynum, and Stuckey to a perfect T??? If they can change due to Frank's inspiring head coaching or Drummond being in the game, why not Ben Gordon? We stink too and are not much better than the Bobcats .. We are going to need every draft pick we can get and really the opposite should be happening .. Joe Dumars should be COLLECTING DRAFT PICKS .. not giving them away .. What FA wants to come here without being overpaid like CV and BG were? Develop a core of good rookies FIRST and then maybe a decent FA at a fair price will want to play here ... Why give away a draft pick if you dont need to? Amnesty the guy or make him sit on the bench just as Magette is and we still keep the draft pick ..

I hear you Grizz, but consider this,

1. Ben Gordon isn't going to grow big enough to not be a liability on defense!
2. He won't be of any use if he isn't hot... that's the story of his career!

These are immutable laws of physics, and unless they change, the turnaround you're seeing with these other guys won't happen with BG.
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Sparma

Post  Oracle on Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:45 pm

Sparma wrote:Evidently I do require extra help, Oracle. And yes, many of the things I write would be exceedingly odd if they were as you represent them.


It's entirely possible that you meant something different, but I'm only using what I see in print, I'm not a mind reader(although I do play one on the interwebs lol )
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Grizz & The Trade

Post  Oracle on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:40 pm

Grizz, I do have to admit that Gordon probably would have benefited from playing with Drummond, and if used as a guard off the bench, he could probably cause a lot of trouble. I still don't think he's the direction either the bobcats or us really want to go in the future!

The Trade(pick): It's lottery-protected in 2013, top-8 protected in 2014, top-1 protected in 2015 and unprotected in 2016, so that means we probably lose it in 2014, IMO.

If we're in the lottery next year, something is seriously wrong internally, or the Pistons will have been moved to the west!

At that point, drafting someone to distract the coach and team is the LAST thing we'll need! At that point, we're consolidating the picks we already have, and looking at FA's or trades to take us up the playoff ladder!

So why are people complaining about that pick? Well it's a valid position for debate, I just don't think that pick alters our trajectory in the least, except that if we had it, we wouldn't be able to get the FA's we need!

Also, it doesn't matter if the FA class isn't all that good! If Joe chooses wisely, the pieces gained will be tradable for another piece that we need in the future!

So Joe's path isn't without risk, and I think that's what people see and don't like! But no risk no reward!

It's a calculated risk, but with a very small possible downside!
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I dont blame the fans for not blaming Joe ....

Post  Grizz2 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:16 pm

Oracle wrote:Grizz, I do have to admit that Gordon probably would have benefited from playing with Drummond, and if used as a guard off the bench, he could probably cause a lot of trouble. I still don't think he's the direction either the bobcats or us really want to go in the future!

The Trade(pick): It's lottery-protected in 2013, top-8 protected in 2014, top-1 protected in 2015 and unprotected in 2016, so that means we probably lose it in 2014, IMO.

If we're in the lottery next year, something is seriously wrong internally, or the Pistons will have been moved to the west!

At that point, drafting someone to distract the coach and team is the LAST thing we'll need! At that point, we're consolidating the picks we already have, and looking at FA's or trades to take us up the playoff ladder!

So why are people complaining about that pick? Well it's a valid position for debate, I just don't think that pick alters our trajectory in the least, except that if we had it, we wouldn't be able to get the FA's we need!

Also, it doesn't matter if the FA class isn't all that good! If Joe chooses wisely, the pieces gained will be tradable for another piece that we need in the future!

So Joe's path isn't without risk, and I think that's what people see and don't like! But no risk no reward!

It's a calculated risk, but with a very small possible downside!

Oracle ,. I dont blame you for the trade .. and respect for liking the trade .. Just got different GM hats on .. You see the trade as having a chance of helping the team .. I see it as risk with little chance of reward ... There is no reason we have to get a BIG FA next year ... Ben Gordon can help this team more than hurt it by staying .. And the pick stays with us .. What FA wants to come here without being overpaid? That is what I am afraid of .. Build the core first .. then FA time .. Respect and understanding for your viewpoint .. It was interesting to see Dan Feldman trash the trade from the beginning .. And I have trashed Dan Feldman but .. the link is there if you care to read it on this site ..
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2013 NBA Free Agents

Post  Oracle on Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:16 pm

This is a comprehensive list of FA's categorized by position from Hoopsworld!
2013 NBA Free Agents

Here is a list by Team: Free agents: 2012 and 2013
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Grizz

Post  Oracle on Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:23 pm

This is one of those things that I can see from both sides, so I do respect you and others opinions on the subject.

I just read Feldmans piece, and he makes some valid points, I just think Joe did the right thing!

However, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I'll be the first to back off if Joe somehow blows this one like the AI debacle!

BTW, Feldman is correct that if Joe doesn't see anything he likes, he doesn't have to spend, but it's not likely.

After this season, we'll have our core youngsters and a couple of current rookies to groom, it's time, IMO to focus on getting vets that compliment the core!
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It Is A Case Of Wait And See

Post  WTF on Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:24 am

[quote="Oracle"]This is one of those things that I can see from both sides, so I do respect you and others opinions on the subject.

I just read Feldmans piece, and he makes some valid points, I just think Joe did the right thing!

However, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I'll be the first to back off if Joe somehow blows this one like the AI debacle!

BTW, Feldman is correct that if Joe doesn't see anything he likes, he doesn't have to spend, but it's not likely.

After this season, we'll have our core youngsters and a couple of current rookies to groom, it's time, IMO to focus on getting vets that compliment the core![/quote]

I don't think the list of FA for 2013 are all that bad, but the biggest impact could be made in a trade over the summer or at this year deadline. What Joe does this summer will determine the importance of that traded pick.

I think those worrying about that pick is also concerned will be a horrible team still come 2014 Draft. I don't think we will be.
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The Rondo Smith Cousins Nightmare

Post  WTF on Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:18 am

I guess after his second suspension this season no one would ever consider trading for Rondo. Yeah having a line up that included Cousins and Rondo would just turn my stomach. And if we were to toss in Josh I would probably just die. Can you imagine all the fighting in the locker room with these three bad characters. Yeah I know what your thinking that with this much talent we could be contending as one of the best defensive teams ever but why make such a sacrafice and give up being a good character losing team. facepalm

PG - Rondo
SG - Stuckey
SF - Smith
PF - Cousins
C - Drummond
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That's not a nightmare, THIS is a nightmare!!!

Post  Oracle on Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:20 am

WISEFAN wrote:I guess after his second suspension this season no one would ever consider trading for Rondo. Yeah having a line up that included Cousins and Rondo would just turn my stomach. And if we were to toss in Josh I would probably just die. Can you imagine all the fighting in the locker room with these three bad characters. Yeah I know what your thinking that with this much talent we could be contending as one of the best defensive teams ever but why make such a sacrafice and give up being a good character losing team. facepalm

PG - Rondo
SG - Stuckey
SF - Smith
PF - Cousins
C - Drummond

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Two tidbits...

Post  Oracle on Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:28 am

Why does Will Bynum always seem to be more in tune with this team than the coach? - Detroit Pistons’ Will Bynum Worried Over Turnover Problems

Poor Scott Skiles, the Bucks seem to be one of the worst run organization in the NBA. Haphazard trades, and now Scott feels the blade. - Ex-Spartan, coach Scott Skiles, Milwaukee Bucks part ways
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Ooooh Dats Is Scary Sir Count Orcala

Post  WTF on Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:25 am

Oracle wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:I guess after his second suspension this season no one would ever consider trading for Rondo. Yeah having a line up that included Cousins and Rondo would just turn my stomach. And if we were to toss in Josh I would probably just die. Can you imagine all the fighting in the locker room with these three bad characters. Yeah I know what your thinking that with this much talent we could be contending as one of the best defensive teams ever but why make such a sacrafice and give up being a good character losing team. facepalm

PG - Rondo
SG - Stuckey
SF - Smith
PF - Cousins
C - Drummond

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Someone Shoot Me Please! facepalm
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Will vouch for that ..

Post  Grizz2 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:57 am

Oracle wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:I guess after his second suspension this season no one would ever consider trading for Rondo. Yeah having a line up that included Cousins and Rondo would just turn my stomach. And if we were to toss in Josh I would probably just die. Can you imagine all the fighting in the locker room with these three bad characters. Yeah I know what your thinking that with this much talent we could be contending as one of the best defensive teams ever but why make such a sacrafice and give up being a good character losing team. facepalm

PG - Rondo
SG - Stuckey
SF - Smith
PF - Cousins
C - Drummond

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That really was a nightmare of a movie .. Next in line ..

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I promise to never do anything like this again ..

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