Re: FORUM

[merc]

Royce White is being fined for breach of contract... OK why don't they put him in a wheelchair and give him a serious sedative before putting him on the plane?

Other rumors... potential blockbuster including Cousins and the Celts.

Varejao possibly going to the TWolves.

Merc at Channel 7 action news reporting :^)

Where are these fine items coming from?

Hoopshype.

[Oracle]

This from that site: [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

[WTF]

This from that site: [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

This article kind of prove my point about who's to blame (Kings and media) for Cousins behavior. What I don't agree with is this doom and gloom approach and the idea that Cousins is some lost cause that other teams shouldn't show interest in him. I still think that a change of scenary and a chance to start over will do the kid some good.

I was never on board with players coming straight from H.S. or 1 year removed from college into the pro's it's insane 1. To think that they have all the fundamentals down to perform at the pro level. 2. That at age 18-19 they're capable of thinking like adults. Treams draft these players on fear of missing out on them when they're truly ready after 2 or 3 years of college. More now than ever the NBA should be encouraging a player to spend the whole 4 years at college. Doing so would be better for both the college programs and pros game which both has lost a lot of cred on the product that put on the floor.

[Grizz2]

The bobcats went small to beat us, they gambled that they could out quick us and win... they were wrong, but Frank made them right!

Frank went big most of the time with the 2nd unit, although he did finally take Daye out.

Here's the problem!

It's alright to go big, but if you do, you better have plays designed to abuse them in the post on almost every posession. We went big, but didnt' utilize our size to our advantage!

And sorry, our first unit has to be close to the slowest and smallish units in basketball! Only Knight has decent speed, but after tonight, it's clear he isn't in Walkers class speed wise!

Add to that the fact that Monroe & Knight regularly miss free throws at critical times in games, and if the shots aren't falling, that spells disaster!

We know Drummond is a poor FT shooter, and I don't really give a crap, but Knight has to be a lot better as a guard, and if Monroe wants to play down low, he needs to be able to get fouled and make them pay.

Yes they're young and will get better, I believe that, but that doesn't mean they don't need to be called out for it!

Yeah there were goats in this loss, but one underlying thing that I noticed was as old as sports itself!



The Bobcats wanted it more than we did!

Oracle .. all good points .. think we will recover from this debacle .. Didnt see the game thank god ..but .. hopefully it will teach and Frank and entire team some valuable lessons ..

[deusXango]

Remember that name folks...he's the guy responsible for the credit Mr. Frank is recieving for the resurrection of CV and Daye. This is the assistant that's put in the work, with these players, and kept them in a positive, upbeat frame of mind, and ready to play when called on. He's young, seems to have the respect of the players, and more importantly, humble enough not to be throwing his players under the bus. Seems like a good HC in the making.

[Murph]

That was a depressing loss. There's really no excuse to lose to a depleated Bobcat team, while at home and well rested. I can't believe we let Bismack Biyombo go off for a double-double. That was literally the best game of Biyombo's young and unimpressive career. And of course, Kemba badly out-playing Knight is just more salt in the wound. Last night, Knight had an almost impossibly low ast/TO ratio of .25. In other words, Knight dished 1 assist, while turning the ball over 4 times.

And speaking of salt in the wound, Ben Gordon had an excellent game. Grrrrrr.....

Knowing how hyper-competitive Michael Jordan is, I'll bet MJ smiles every time he thinks of taking Joe and the Pistons to the cleaners for Walker and Gordon.

I see DX's guy, Jeff Taylor played well for Charlotte. And it's good to see former Huskie Jeff Adrien finally making a contribution in the NBA.

I guess the silver lining is that if we keep playing like last night, Charlotte won't be getting our draft pick this year.

[FlyDog]

This from that site: [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

This article kind of prove my point about who's to blame (Kings and media) for Cousins behavior. What I don't agree with is this doom and gloom approach and the idea that Cousins is some lost cause that other teams shouldn't show interest in him. I still think that a change of scenary and a chance to start over will do the kid some good.

I was never on board with players coming straight from H.S. or 1 year removed from college into the pro's it's insane 1. To think that they have all the fundamentals down to perform at the pro level. 2. That at age 18-19 they're capable of thinking like adults. Treams draft these players on fear of missing out on them when they're truly ready after 2 or 3 years of college. More now than ever the NBA should be encouraging a player to spend the whole 4 years at college. Doing so would be better for both the college programs and pros game which both has lost a lot of cred on the product that put on the floor.

It's ultimately up to Cousins to decide how he wants to act. If he can't learn to play nice with others, eventually, nobody will want to play with him. Sadly.......that's how I see things ending for Cousins.

[lemonpen]

This from that site: [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

This article kind of prove my point about who's to blame (Kings and media) for Cousins behavior. What I don't agree with is this doom and gloom approach and the idea that Cousins is some lost cause that other teams shouldn't show interest in him. I still think that a change of scenary and a chance to start over will do the kid some good.

I was never on board with players coming straight from H.S. or 1 year removed from college into the pro's it's insane 1. To think that they have all the fundamentals down to perform at the pro level. 2. That at age 18-19 they're capable of thinking like adults. Treams draft these players on fear of missing out on them when they're truly ready after 2 or 3 years of college. More now than ever the NBA should be encouraging a player to spend the whole 4 years at college. Doing so would be better for both the college programs and pros game which both has lost a lot of cred on the product that put on the floor.

D. Cuz has been around long enough to know a thing or two. Quit making excuses for him for Christ sakes. He too often behaves like a punkazz that because of talent has been allowed to do as he pleases. Cuz needed a foot up his azz a long time ago to prevent todays bully tactics. The sad thing is he will ultimately recieve the standard pro sports reward of being moved into a wining situation, with a raise in pay. It makes me sick everytime I see it. Makes me even more ill when I see great players tough it out in crappy situations while giving their all, with their mouths shut.

Now that I got that off of my chest, wheew !!! Wise you may have hit on a gem of an idea. What if players could be drafted after their freshman yr but by their choice remain in college while the pro team retains their rights. Maybe the pro team then somehow reimburses the college for the players educational expenses for the duration of his college career.

[Sparma]

I'm a critic of the Charlotte trade, but I realize it may be difficult to show how awful it is even in the long run.

From Charlotte's vantage point, it's easy enough to show what a great trade it is. They pick up a valuable bench guy with a rare shooting ability and they get a first round pick, all for a guy they don't miss. The cost is an extra year of Gordon's salary, but (a) he's a productive player and (b) they could probably trade him next year with his expiring contract for a 2nd or even 1st round pick. If so, they'be be getting a year and a half of productive play along with a 1st half 1st rounder and maybe a second half 1st rounder for a guy not missed. Great trade, Michael!

Things are more complicated on the Detroit side. Looks like we can safely say that Maggette contributes little or nothing as a player, albeit that he appears to be a good lockerroom contributor. The advantage to Detroit is winning salary cap space one year earlier.

I said I'm deeply skeptical that the money saved from a year of Gordon's salary will make up for the loss of that 1st round pick.

To clarify, that's not the same as saying I don't think the Pistons won't make good use of the Gordon/Maggette salary departure when it occurs. I think they will. I'm skeptical that the one year window gained will be worth the pick.

For me, establishing the Gordon trade was a good one would require showing
a) it was preferable to amnestying him either last summer or next summer. I believe it was preferable for Gores' s checkbook, but not from a basketball point of view.
b) that gaining salary space one year early was worth a first round pick. That's different than showing that gaining salary space is advantageous, which is true, but which would occur in '14 without giving up a 1st round pick. (Patience is a virtue when you're realistic about your roster and realize that collecting draft picks is a wise thing.)

Vince Ellis said that Gordon would have blocked Singler from starting at the 2 and would have blocked the resurgent Daye. Initially, that argument sounds somewhat persuasive, but there are various counters: 1) Gordon would be blocking either Singler or Daye, but not both as wss suggested, 2) Singler's been looking a bit feeble as starter recently, so maybe it would not have been so bad for him to contributing in a lesser role, 3) in any case, the refrain of the coach is that playing time should be earned on merit, so why not in the case of Gordon, 4) I'd take Ellis's argument more seriously if the Pistons had a consistent policy of developing young players where possible, but they clearly don't (see Maxiell), 5) if they did have such a policy of developing young players, why not amnesty Gordon without giving up the chance of a potential young star in the form of a (lottery '14?) 1st rounder?

[Phil-Good]

At the end of the day it was A really good trade for the Detroit Pistons and the Bobcats.

In my opinion Ben Gordon is A very unstable player. You can't depend on Ben Gordon. Yes, he can score with the best of them, when his mind is right but that's not enough to justify that big contract that Joe Dumars gave him.

Chicago knew that better then anybody else and that's why they were smart and let him walk for ZERO in return.

I was happy to see Ben Gordon leave Detroit and when Charlie V is gone I will be happy as well. I want to see that money being used on better, younger players.

[lemonpen]

I'm a critic of the Charlotte trade, but I realize it may be difficult to show how awful it is even in the long run.

From Charlotte's vantage point, it's easy enough to show what a great trade it is. They pick up a valuable bench guy with a rare shooting ability and they get a first round pick, all for a guy they don't miss. The cost is an extra year of Gordon's salary, but (a) he's a productive player and (b) they could probably trade him next year with his expiring contract for a 2nd or even 1st round pick. If so, they'be be getting a year and a half of productive play along with a 1st half 1st rounder and maybe a second half 1st rounder for a guy not missed. Great trade, Michael!

Things are more complicated on the Detroit side. Looks like we can safely say that Maggette contributes little or nothing as a player, albeit that he appears to be a good lockerroom contributor. The advantage to Detroit is winning salary cap space one year earlier.

I said I'm deeply skeptical that the money saved from a year of Gordon's salary will make up for the loss of that 1st round pick.

To clarify, that's not the same as saying I don't think the Pistons won't make good use of the Gordon/Maggette salary departure when it occurs. I think they will. I'm skeptical that the one year window gained will be worth the pick.

For me, establishing the Gordon trade was a good one would require showing
a) it was preferable to amnestying him either last summer or next summer. I believe it was preferable for Gores' s checkbook, but not from a basketball point of view.
b) that gaining salary space one year early was worth a first round pick. That's different than showing that gaining salary space is advantageous, which is true, but which would occur in '14 without giving up a 1st round pick. (Patience is a virtue when you're realistic about your roster and realize that collecting draft picks is a wise thing.)

Vince Ellis said that Gordon would have blocked Singler from starting at the 2 and would have blocked the resurgent Daye. Initially, that argument sounds somewhat persuasive, but there are various counters: 1) Gordon would be blocking either Singler or Daye, but not both as wss suggested, 2) Singler's been looking a bit feeble as starter recently, so maybe it would not have been so bad for him to contributing in a lesser role, 3) in any case, the refrain of the coach is that playing time should be earned on merit, so why not in the case of Gordon, 4) I'd take Ellis's argument more seriously if the Pistons had a consistent policy of developing young players where possible, but they clearly don't (see Maxiell), 5) if they did have such a policy of developing young players, why not amnesty Gordon without giving up the chance of a potential young star in the form of a (lottery '14?) 1st rounder?

Two points.
(1) Despite the recent uptick in performance we aren't even close to forfeiting our spot in the lottery. We have miles and miles to go B4 that becomes a concern. 28-18 gets us to %0.500. FaGetaboutit.

(2) When Joe graced Bee Gee with $50 million bucks he was under the impression we were getting James Harden, 20 ppg for prior 3 yrs. Somebody call a cop, WE WAS ROBBED!!!!! At 13, 11, and 12 ppg we were paying dang near $1million bucks per point averaged. Bee Gee is giving the Bobcats the identical fleecing he gave us. That is hardly productive.

IMO relieving ourselves of that millstone in favor of someone we can shelve totally without compunction was very necessary toward the growth of this team. God bless Maggette for being a real pro about it.

[WTF]

Not once have a made an excuse for Cousins behavior, I'm just not with many that want to condem and label him unfairly. I have yet to see where Cousins has done something unique to any other player in the league people act as if he's crossed some line or point of no return.

Yes Sac-Town share in the blame for this kids behavior, the way some of you go on about this you would think he (Cousins) was dropping drug laced piss test every week, or toting firearms while under the influence. Again his behavior is no worse than some players we had and may still have on this team. I don't see him as being Taboo if this was the 80's we all be laughing. Like kicking camera men, spitting on fans, waiting to jump refs in the parking lot or arena brawls, guns on planes, refusing to go in games, ass raping in the Rockies. Imagine if we had a chance at Kobe back then, would anyone have said then the ass raping was okay? Cousins disrepects as coach, call out a players and acts let a spoil brat and it the end of the world.


Fly some people are never old enough if they're not taught,

[lemonpen]

The bobcats went small to beat us, they gambled that they could out quick us and win... they were wrong, but Frank made them right!

Frank went big most of the time with the 2nd unit, although he did finally take Daye out.

Here's the problem!

It's alright to go big, but if you do, you better have plays designed to abuse them in the post on almost every posession. We went big, but didnt' utilize our size to our advantage!

And sorry, our first unit has to be close to the slowest and smallish units in basketball! Only Knight has decent speed, but after tonight, it's clear he isn't in Walkers class speed wise!

Add to that the fact that Monroe & Knight regularly miss free throws at critical times in games, and if the shots aren't falling, that spells disaster!

We know Drummond is a poor FT shooter, and I don't really give a crap, but Knight has to be a lot better as a guard, and if Monroe wants to play down low, he needs to be able to get fouled and make them pay.

Yes they're young and will get better, I believe that, but that doesn't mean they don't need to be called out for it!

Yeah there were goats in this loss, but one underlying thing that I noticed was as old as sports itself!

The Bobcats wanted it more than we did!

We went big and proceeded to shoot threes. Duh. Seemed like we also sacrificed too many possessions trying to make the Willie B to A.D. lob work.
The Bobcats did use their quickness nicely in drawing 4 charges in 5 possessions. Pretty much killed our transition game.

[lemonpen]

Not once have a made an excuse for Cousins behavior, I'm just not with many that want to condem and label him unfairly. I have yet to see where Cousins has done something unique to any other player in the league people act as if he's crossed some line or point of no return.

Yes Sac-Town share in the blame for this kids behavior, the way some of you go on about this you would think he (Cousins) was dropping drug laced piss test every week, or toting firearms while under the influence. Again his behavior is no worse than some players we had and may still have on this team. I don't see him as being Taboo if this was the 80's we all be laughing. Like kicking camera men, spitting on fans, waiting to jump refs in the parking lot or arena brawls, guns on planes, refusing to go in games, ass raping in the Rockies. Imagine if we had a chance at Kobe back then, would anyone have said then the ass raping was okay? Cousins disrepects as coach, call out a players and acts let a spoil brat and it the end of the world.


Fly some people are never old enough if they're not taught,

You haven't stopped making excuses for his behavior. 2 sentences after saying you didn't you clearly blame "Sac-Town". You've blamed the media. You've even said it was understandable because "he was disappointed after not being recruted by the college of his dreams". Wise you have written off his behavior for everything under the sun EXCEPT his own lack of self discipline.
If you like the guy, which is abundantly evident, and think there is some inner angel dying to get out, OK. You might be right. But, confession is standing in its way.

[Sparma]

Lemonpen, when I wrote lottery pick '14, I meant that my best guess is that we'll be giving up the pick in 2014 and that it likely/could well be a lottery pick then, i.e., somewhere from number 9 to number 14 (it's top 8 protected next year). Maybe we'll be doing a bit better and it will be a 15-20 pick. It can't be a lottery pick this year in any event (although it could be as high as #2 in 2015 or #1 in 2016).

Attacking the Ben Gordon trade isn't the same as defending the Ben Gordon signing. Once the signing was made, I'd consider the sunk cost and live with Gordon as a useful role player to whom we'd devoted too much money. Conversely, if you (understandably) felt the signing was too terrible to live with and that you wanted to go to a youth movement at once, without Gordon blocking anyone, then you should have made use of the one time deal negotiated by the NBA by amnestying Gordon, either last summer or next summer. Problem solved, without giving up a (high) first round pick.

Given such considerations, it's hard not to think that penny (million?) pinching was a factor (why trade an important assest rather than amnesty?), along with an unrealistic assessment of the shortterm prospects of the team (Gores: playoffs), maybe even along with Joe wanting to get one of his major overspending mistakes out of view. From a purely basketball point of view, it wasn't the way to go.

[Oracle]

Lemonpen, when I wrote lottery pick '14, I meant that my best guess is that we'll be giving up the pick in 2014 and that it likely/could well be a lottery pick then, i.e., somewhere from number 9 to number 14 (it's top 8 protected next year). Maybe we'll be doing a bit better and it will be a 15-20 pick. It can't be a lottery pick this year in any event (although it could be as high as #2 in 2015 or #1 in 2016).

Attacking the Ben Gordon trade isn't the same as defending the Ben Gordon signing. Once the signing was made, I'd consider the sunk cost and live with Gordon as a useful role player to whom we'd devoted too much money. Conversely, if you (understandably) felt the signing was too terrible to live with and that you wanted to go to a youth movement at once, without Gordon blocking anyone, then you should have made use of the one time deal negotiated by the NBA by amnestying Gordon, either last summer or next summer. Problem solved, without giving up a (high) first round pick.

Given such considerations, it's hard not to think that penny (million?) pinching was a factor (let's see if the salary budget is down next season), along with an unrealistic assessment of the shortterm prospects of the team (Gores: playoffs), maybe even along with Joe wanting to get one of his major overspending mistakes out of view. From a purely basketball point of view, it wasn't the way to go.

I think the argument of trying to figure out if this was a good or bad trade is a good one, but there is a bigger argument to be made!

Not if it was good or bad, but was it a smart move for either side, and the answer, IMO, is clearly YES! This was a good move by both sides, and it both sides play their cards correctly, both will be considered winners in this win-win trade!

However, Sparma, I do find some of your arguments a small bit strange.

First you say: "I said I'm deeply skeptical that the money saved from a year of Gordon's salary will make up for the loss of that 1st round pick." In fairness, you do, unlike others, think they will spend it wisely(I'm really hoping you're correct).

But later in the same post you say: "I'd take Ellis's argument more seriously if the Pistons had a consistent policy of developing young players where possible, but they clearly don't (see Maxiell)." You're right , they don't, but in reality who does? Of all the teams in the league, nobody is consistent, and few do even marginally well, and are exceptions.

However, that isn't where I have the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that if our track record is so bad, then by what logic do you believe that having the pick would be better than the money which you clearly believe we would spend wisely?

[lemonpen]

Lemonpen, when I wrote lottery pick '14, I meant that my best guess is that we'll be giving up the pick in 2014 and that it likely/could well be a lottery pick then, i.e., somewhere from number 9 to number 14 (it's top 8 protected next year). Maybe we'll be doing a bit better and it will be a 15-20 pick. It can't be a lottery pick this year in any event (although it could be as high as #2 in 2015 or #1 in 2016).

Attacking the Ben Gordon trade isn't the same as defending the Ben Gordon signing. Once the signing was made, I'd consider the sunk cost and live with Gordon as a useful role player to whom we'd devoted too much money. Conversely, if you (understandably) felt the signing was too terrible to live with and that you wanted to go to a youth movement at once, without Gordon blocking anyone, then you should have made use of the one time deal negotiated by the NBA by amnestying Gordon, either last summer or next summer. Problem solved, without giving up a (high) first round pick.

Given such considerations, it's hard not to think that penny (million?) pinching was a factor (why trade an important assest rather than amnesty?), along with an unrealistic assessment of the shortterm prospects of the team (Gores: playoffs), maybe even along with Joe wanting to get one of his major overspending mistakes out of view. From a purely basketball point of view, it wasn't the way to go.

Please be wrong about us being a lottery team next season. I can only hope we will be surrendering nothing more than an unwanted late first round guaranteed salary, thus preserving space to extend Monroe

I agree penny pinching was a large part of our reasoning. Had Gores ok'd paying BeeGee to go away it would have cost $25M plus the cost of back-filling the positional vacancy ($1-5M). The trade reduced that cost to $10 M (CM's contract). The resulting difference in 2013 FA buying power is significant.

Saddly I cheered the BeeGee signing as vigorously as I did the trade.

[Sparma]

Not sure I follow the conundrum you're attempting to set, Oracle, when you write: "The biggest problem is that if our track record is so bad, then by what logic do you believe that having the pick would be better than the money which you clearly believe we would spend wisely."

Rather than attempt to exegete your comment, I'll state my position, hoping it's relevant.

If you hold on to the overpaid Gordon, you (a) have a useful role player as well as (b) your 1st rounder and (c) the money from his salary come 2014. That's better than the trade.

If you amnesty Gordon, you (a) have the money to spend (b) the pick and (c) no worries about Gordon blocking Singler or others. That's better than the trade.

Insofar as I understand your comment, Oracle, I think you're setting a false dilemma. It's not a matter of having the money or having the pick. Instead, it's a matter of having the money a year early or having the pick and the money a year later. Consequently, I don't somehow need to prove that the money will be spent badly in general (as you appear to concede). I simply need to raise reasonable doubts that the one year difference justifies the loss of the pick. We'll see, but I think it's pretty clear there's reason to doubt the one year latitude will justify the loss of a high pick. Beyond that, again that fine point doesn't even need to be debated if they amnesty Gordon, because then you can spend the money at your leisure.

So I don't see why I'd be prone to the kind of dilemma you appear to be trying to set, because once you set the preferred option of amnesty aside, it's a matter of (1) having the pick & the money in '14 or (2) not having the pick & having the money in '13. I think the case for #2 is a hard one to make, especially for a team in rebuilding mode. I don't think the case against it depends on showing that it's highly doubtful the money will be spent well at all (although I do think a case of the kind can be made, maybe having more to do with Detroit as a destination rather than Joe's recent spending incompetence.) The trade turns on gaining that one year of flexibility. I doubt that one year will gain us an outstanding free agent of the kind we could not sign the next year. I do think that Joe will be able to make an advantageous trade based on financial considerations at some point. Unfortunately, now such a trade will need to override the effects of a bad trade already made on the basis of financial considerations (goodbye 1st rounder), rather than simply standing as a net gain by itself.

[WTF]

Not once have a made an excuse for Cousins behavior, I'm just not with many that want to condem and label him unfairly. I have yet to see where Cousins has done something unique to any other player in the league people act as if he's crossed some line or point of no return.

Yes Sac-Town share in the blame for this kids behavior, the way some of you go on about this you would think he (Cousins) was dropping drug laced piss test every week, or toting firearms while under the influence. Again his behavior is no worse than some players we had and may still have on this team. I don't see him as being Taboo if this was the 80's we all be laughing. Like kicking camera men, spitting on fans, waiting to jump refs in the parking lot or arena brawls, guns on planes, refusing to go in games, ass raping in the Rockies. Imagine if we had a chance at Kobe back then, would anyone have said then the ass raping was okay? Cousins disrepects as coach, call out a players and acts let a spoil brat and it the end of the world.


Fly some people are never old enough if they're not taught,

You haven't stopped making excuses for his behavior. 2 sentences after saying you didn't you clearly blame "Sac-Town". You've blamed the media. You've even said it was understandable because "he was disappointed after not being recruted by the college of his dreams". Wise you have written off his behavior for everything under the sun EXCEPT his own lack of self discipline.
If you like the guy, which is abundantly evident, and think there is some inner angel dying to get out, OK. You might be right. But, confession is standing in its way.

Oh I have said quite a bit in defense of Cousins but never did I imply any innocents on his part after all these are his actions. But for some to sit and think that they weren't somehow a result of how Sac-Town handled things is insane. For one to sit and think that this issue isn't being over-played by the media is insane.

I did'nt use Cousins problem with Alabama as an excuse for his behavior, but recognizing it as a cause and to hold him to some standard of reacting like an adult at 17-18 years old is insane thinking as well. Hell beating him up as a 22 year old is insane and far to early to be writing someone off. Half of this board was likely ass-holes until their 30's but instead he spoke about like a felon just being released from a 15 year stretch that somehow can't be reformed.

It's not a question of rather I like Cousins or not he just simply better than Monroe and a better fit IMO. I don't care how nice Monroe is he plays like a big pussy more often than not for my liking.

[WTF]

By the time that pick comes in 2014 my hopes are that we are at least a 5 or 6 seeded playoff team and that trade pick after 2013 really doesn't matter. The worst case scenario would be the team is still stinking it up come 2014 and picking 9 thru 14 in the draft by then Joe Fat Ass should be fired if that is indeed the case.

But we can remove any relevance about that pick if Joe does something constructive and positive with the money this summer. Landing the right free agent could be far more valuable than that lottery pick in 2014

[WTF]

Team doesn't play until Friday so I'm sure we'll be getting Fluff Pieces by the minute.

[cool breeze]

I listened to an interview before this last game on the Bobcat network with Mike Dunlap. I have mentioned this coach before and I know few of you know anything about him. Charlotte should get a lot of credit for this hire. I know him from his coaching experience here a U of Arizona. There was an immediate improvement when Jordon Hill and Chase Budinger took the floor that one season under Dunlap. He makes players better. He is so smart and no player can fool him. Before this last game Dunlap summed up the current Piston team and why they had been successful over the past few games. He said that the Detroit coaching staff had created two separate teams that operate much differently from each other. As if we forum fans didn't know that. But it seems that other opposing coaches failed to identify what Detroit was doing and had no plan in place before their teams played the Pistons. That's the way it is in the NBA. There is a lot of lazy behavior in almost every area of employment from sloppy GMs to coaching staffs and players. The owners pay a lot of money to people who believe they have it made or just get caught up in everything other than doing hard work. First off, Dunlap went though the starters for the Pistons and said this unit is "a grind it out group of pounders". The paint is anchored by an under sized power forward in Maxiell with 3 other tough minded defenders in Prince, Singler and Knight. Notice he didn't mention Monroe but he did compliment how well Monroe plays on offense being able to put the ball on the floor, hit the outside jump shot and pass the basketball. Dunlap said that this unit is difficult to play. And he said that the recent success of the Detroit wins could be placed on the scoring done by the 2nd unit. He said that this unit has been hitting a lot of outside shots and mentioned Bynum, Daye and Charlie V a lot. As if I couldn't guess what he would have his players do in this last game. Did you ever see Daye get many open outside shots? No Dunlap had his team ready to play Detroit's 2nd unit. He knew Bynum has the habit of dribbling a lot. Bobcat defenders took the outside shots away and knew that once that happened, players like Daye and Charlie V would be lost and would play that much weaker on defense. That was the other strategy used against the Pistons last night. When the 2nd unit of Detroit came on the floor, Charlotte players were told to push the basketball and penetrate the lane while hitting the offensive boards. Daye looked pitiful on defense. He couldn't guard anyone but Bynum and Charlie V were not much better. When Detroit's 2nd unit is in the game play fast. Also, notice how many times Bobcat players got the charge call on defense. Detroit guards over penetrate and often do so because other teammates are standing around watching the action. Few screens are set after the opening pass to the wing early in the shot clock. As bad as Singler and Knight played last night, they were moving a lot along with Prince trying to make something happen. Back to the drawing board Larry Frank. Everyone will now have the Pistons number. The second unit is too slow. They will be easy to defend if the opposing coaching staff has half a brain even though this unit can spread the floor. And on defense, that unit is downright horrible except for Drummond who must hate playing with that group.

One compliment should be noted regarding Stuckey's play. He played damn hard last night and really worked his butt off trying to guard Gordon. If only he would have that kind of energy every night this team could be so much better.

One final comment about Mike Dunlap. He stated that he is committed to playing his young players regardless of the result. He went on to state that with almost every first and second year player, they will be so up and down from game to game that you as a coach will not know what you have until at least their 3rd season. You need to see certain things you like about the individual player who might be struggling for consistancy and stick with them and have a gut feeling that they will develop into winners. The players know he has their backs. Dunlap will not listen to angry fans nor will he play old players just for a few meaningless wins. Wish Mike Dunlap would have been hired by the Pistons instead of Larry Frank. Who knows anything about English, Middleton or the Russian? We do know that Maxiell is undersized. We do know what Charlie V, Daye and Bynum can do and they do have their strengths. But why not give some minor minutes to the rest of those guys from game to game including Jerebco especially on back to back games when you know you have an almost certain loss coming?

[Grizz2]

Not sure I follow the conundrum you're attempting to set, Oracle, when you write: "The biggest problem is that if our track record is so bad, then by what logic do you believe that having the pick would be better than the money which you clearly believe we would spend wisely."

Rather than attempt to exegete your comment, I'll state my position, hoping it's relevant.

If you hold on to the overpaid Gordon, you (a) have a useful role player as well as (b) your 1st rounder and (c) the money from his salary come 2014. That's better than the trade.

If you amnesty Gordon, you (a) have the money to spend (b) the pick and (c) no worries about Gordon blocking Singler or others. That's better than the trade.

Insofar as I understand your comment, Oracle, I think you're setting a false dilemma. It's not a matter of having the money or having the pick. Instead, it's a matter of having the money a year early or having the pick and the money a year later. Consequently, I don't somehow need to prove that the money will be spent badly in general (as you appear to concede). I simply need to raise reasonable doubts that the one year difference justifies the loss of the pick. We'll see, but I think it's pretty clear there's reason to doubt the one year latitude will justify the loss of a high pick. Beyond that, again that fine point doesn't even need to be debated if they amnesty Gordon, because then you can spend the money at your leisure.

So I don't see why I'd be prone to the kind of dilemma you appear to be trying to set, because once you set the preferred option of amnesty aside, it's a matter of (1) having the pick & the money in '14 or (2) not having the pick & having the money in '13. I think the case for #2 is a hard one to make, especially for a team in rebuilding mode. I don't think the case against it depends on showing that it's highly doubtful the money will be spent well at all (although I do think a case of the kind can be made, maybe having more to do with Detroit as a destination rather than Joe's recent spending incompetence.) The trade turns on gaining that one year of flexibility. I doubt that one year will gain us an outstanding free agent of the kind we could not sign the next year. I do think that Joe will be able to make an advantageous trade based on financial considerations at some point. Unfortunately, now such a trade will need to override the effects of a bad trade already made on the basis of financial considerations (goodbye 1st rounder), rather than simply standing as a net gain by itself.

Sparma .. well said!

1. Ben Gordon can shoot well and kick our butts in the loss to the hapless Bobcats in Detroit.... 2. BG wouldn't be blocking anyone's development if that player outplays him and earns court time (see Coach Frank on that).. 3. Magette gives the Pistons.. nothing..4..We also gave a NUMBER ONE DRAFT PICK to Charlotte for the right to have Ben Gordon burn us with his shooting while Magette is not even good enough to play.

So Goodwill wants to help paint Ben Gordon as a failure here? Those same words would have applied just as accurately to Daye, Bynum, Stuckey, JMAX, and Charlie V one year ago. Andre Drummond changed everything by giving these players some defensive cover or, in Max's case, motivation to play harder....I can see Ben Gordon lighting up the place just as easily if not more as part of the 2nd unit .... Goodwill's article was interesting but misleading..Ready to cover Joe's butt when called upon .. There was never a good reason to risk a draft pick for this kind of possible benefit ..

[Sparma]

Thanks, Grizz. Lots of trade analysis before and after the trade.

I heard the interview with the coach too, Cool. Nice analysis. I do think he had a good game plan although there was also luck involved, considering that Prince and CV's shots fell beautifully in the first half.

In order to try to reverse positions and attempt to defend the Charlotte trade, I'd need to reconstruct Joe's thought processes as follows:

Joe's sitting around in 2011 reflecting on the errors of his ways. He still thinks he was right to gather a huge pot of money after the Billups trade, but he realizes he made a mistake by breaking the money up for two good players, rather than for one star. He knows Gordon's coming off the books in 2014 at 11 mil. He also knows Maxiell's coming off in '13 at 5 mil, Bynum at 3, and Daye at 2. In addition, he knows CV can be amnestied in '13 at 7 mil [numbers from memory].

He's under pressure from the owner. What if he could swing a big trade, going along with Gores's playoff dreams? The owner's giving him a bit of breathing room for now. He decides to go for it, taking BG's 11 off, by way of Magette, for '13. Adding 10 for the other three, he's down 21 mil. In addition, he thinks he can convince Gores to go for the big splash by amnestying CV at 7. That reduces his budget by 28 mil in '13. Considering commitments coming, he realizes he won't be quite that far under the cap, but he'll still be in a position to be an enormous player in the summer '13 market. That's far more valuable than being moderately under 2 years running.

Being the biggest (?) player in '13 opens tremendous possibilities. He could add a max salary free agent (Josh Smith?) or maybe swing a trade for a near max guy (Rudy Gay?) who's really good but not valued as highly by his team as at the time of signing. With time running out, not wanting his late legacy to be signing two underachieving free agents, he goes for broke.

The price: a first rounder. If all breaks for the team they make the playoffs in '13 and in a relatively weak draft, they don't give up that much. But his sights are really set on the 2013-'14 season. With another lottery pick and a really good player added by free agency or trade, he expects 45 wins, maybe even the 50 which he once thought were his birthright. He cuts the deal with his rival and friendly acquaintance, expecting the loss of a pick circa 20 in '14 not to be that big a deal.

And he lived happily ever after.

[Oracle]

You always seem to require an additional explanation, so here it is!

I said, "However, that isn't where I have the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that if our track record is so bad, then by what logic do you believe that having the pick would be better than the money which you clearly believe we would spend wisely?" - Oracle

If you say we can't develop draft picks, why in the world are you advocating keeping a SURE loser in your opinion(the pick), instead of what you CLEARLY believe we are good at(spending the cash)?

Those two things are in such STARK contrast to what you're saying it's ridiculous!

You're advocating for us to do something you seem to know we'll screw up, instead of what Joe did... odd to the extreme!

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