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Drummond is ready .. to develop ..

Post  Grizz2 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:22 pm

Jmax . 1 for 10? and Drummond plays 14 minutes? Lil Larry is a stubborn little shit isnt he ..
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Grizz, I have to ask

Post  Oracle on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:41 pm

Did you see the play?
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Time for Frank to start Drummond

Post  Grizz2 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:43 pm

deusXango wrote:The success of this team begins and ends with the coach and his staff; I've read posters rip our players for the past couple of weeks, and the common thread is, they play confused or with lack of the ability we know they have....I'm of the mind that Lil' Larry and his coaching staff is in over their collective heads when it comes to teaching and developing the young talent we have. The players can watch film all day, and listen to Lil' Larry preach about defense first but, until they're taken aside and taught the intricacies of their pro positions (and breaking the bad habits of not practicing fundamentals they missed in college, ie. Knight and Drummond), the play on the floor will be helter-skelter.

Lil' Larry has gone on the record saying, he doesn't teach the player(s) that's lagging behind; he put his message out there for the most intelligent, and let the rest catch up. Doesn't he understand that "a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link?" These young men are multi-milion dollar investments, and deserve to be groomed as such. That shouldn't be open to debate!

I've also read that "Frank will start Drummond when he's ready." Who the hell is the "he" being reffered to, Frank or Drummond? If it's Drummond, he's ready! Why did we spend 2X's what we were paying Macklin (who sat the bench), for Kravtsov (who sits the bench)? Is this on Dumars and David, or Lil' Larry and his staff? I know Joe signed him but, this entire coaching staff can't find a use for an athletic 7 foot, shot-blocking, rebounding, foul machine? Those qualities would trump a deaf-mute, so the language barrier doesn't fly. English impressed Pistons fans (for the most part) with his hard-nosed defensive play, from Summer League on, and his shooting prowess speaks for itself but, when our SG could no longer shot, he was replaced with a SF (who did not impress with his defense), and English disappeared into DNP-CD land. All we know about Middleton is that he seemed to be getting better and better, with each opportunity given him, then Maggette got well....no Middleton. Jerebko is suddenly in the "doghouse" (that's what it is in all actually), and we have no idea if Daye has come out of his coma....CV was given a shot after his horrific start, why not Daye?

I don't think Daye has what it takes, and I feel Jerebko should be traded but, the only reason I bring them up is because they're young, and we drafted them; until they're gone, they should be groomed and nurtured. I look at the rotation being used and we're still playing players out of position, and it's no longer neccessary. I'm not criticizing for the hell of it, I'm sharing observations made without the benefit of rose colored glasses.

DX, Very important post by you .. Strong agreement that the head coach has a reason to be .. and that is to teach all the players whatever they need to know .. especially the younger players .. I

There is no question Larry Frank is a work in progress . and needs to improve even more than the players ..

He may be a good head coach someday .. Maybe with us the Pistons . .but the jury is still out on that ..

For what you brought up really addresses the main issue of this season which is: (1) Since Drummond has outplayed Jmax this season so far per 36 minutes, and (2) this is a team in development without a true center, and (3) Monroe is struggling at center, and (4) Jmax is NO GM’S idea of a STARTING POWER FORWARD in the NBA,.. .just why the hell is Lil Larry Frank playing this game of go slow on Drummond?

I mean even today, with Jmax shooting 1 for 11? Drummond’s minutes went down to 14!!!!

That is truly stupid …

On the other hand .. we have to give credit to Larry Frank for (1) helping Knight improve over the past few games especially .. and (2) in getting Charlie V into a viable and important back up role on the team when the entire universe except Wise had given up on CV, and (3) Stuckey sure looks better as back up PG / SG than as a starter …. But we cannot say that Monroe and Drummond are being handled very well .. The idea of them not being able to share the court at the same time is laughable .. Monroe looks great at the high post .. but recently .. he often gets the ball out on the wings for god knows what reason ..

Do not believe Monroe is a head case or Diva either .. He just needs to play his natural position .. as Oracle has relevantly pointed out more than once .

Frank needs a talking to .. Develop the team AND win by playing Drummond ..
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Larry Frank in crunch time...

Post  Oracle on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:45 pm

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No .. Do you understand my point?

Post  Grizz2 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:45 pm

Oracle wrote:Did you see the play?
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Even though I promised to not call for Frank's firing anymore

Post  Grizz2 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:47 pm

Oracle wrote:[Only admins are allowed to see this image]

Oracle .... like it!! lol
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Does a coach make a difference?

Post  Oracle on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:49 pm

All you need to do is look at Golden State.

I laughed when Marc Jackson went there, because I thought it would take years to change that culture.

One year later, he has them playing defense and a SOLID, well thought out offense specifically designed to exploit the talent that he has!

That's what a real coach would do. It's not that Frank is horrible, he isn't. It's just that he's so ordinary, and obviously only a caretaker coach!
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Yes, but...

Post  Oracle on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:54 pm

Grizz2 wrote:
Oracle wrote:Did you see the play?

Since you missed the game, a play like that won't be forgot for YEARS!

When you get hit by a AI level crossover, and you land flat on your ass, it's lasting.

Of course you get over it quickly, but if you don't dream about that, you may not be human, lol! I kept watching the board, but nobody mentioned it, and I was shocked!

See it here: ]Post Game Videos
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Drummond is ready .. to develop ..

Post  deusXango on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:35 am

Grizz2 wrote:Jmax . 1 for 10? and Drummond plays 14 minutes? Lil Larry is a stubborn little shit isnt he ..

Grizz, Drummond has been ready but, bias and prejudice has kept him out of the starting lineup, in favor of Maxiell. To show you how that dumb shit backfires on you, CV is now the best bet for backup PF, or at least the most productive (offensively), and he's under contract for two more years. What's to become of Maxiell?

Suddenly the PG play seems to be an evolving strength of the Pistons, with Knight starting and Stuckey coming off the bench; their production has the potential to be amazing. Not only is it time for Drummond to be installed in the starting lineup but, it's time for English as well....Singler needs to join Stuckey and Charlie on the 2nd unit (that's a very competitive trio).
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Philly

Post  Sparma on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:37 am

Weird game. I felt Detroit played pretty well, but a 17-0 run is tough to withstand (but they fired right back with an 8-0!).

The Philadelphia announcers said a lot of good things about the Pistons, in a complaing way, repeatedly talking about how often Detroit got to the line. They praised Maxiell with 5 early offensive boards, but his awful shooting did him in. They even compared Stuckey to a "miniature LeBron."

They pointed something out I hadn't noticed -- how Monroe tended to leak out early, leading to offensive opportunities for him, but also defensive breakdowns.

Good offensive game by Monroe. After several feeble efforts, I felt Singler played well, eg, in posting up Turner (ultimately missing), but he was barely included. First time I've gotten a glimmer of the "low motor" charge against Drummond; he's been working like a fiend.

7-20 looks well within range now. Probably not enough to get Frank canned.

My gripe probably means little given how many they scored: I can't stand the prevalence of isolation plays. Stuckey, Knight, Prince, and Monroe all had good games, but each repeatedly attacked the basket on his own, leaving others watching. The upside is how many fouls the penetrators draw. I still think it's an ineffective way to play at the end of games and against quality competition, unless you're LeBron or Wade in his prime. One of my favorite stretches of Pistons basketball was when Chris Webber came in, beautifully distributing the ball (think they went 16-4), before Billups bumped him from his pivotal role.

Fantasy: I'd love to see Phil Jackson come in and install the triangle offense. That probably would solve the Monroe-Drummond offensive co-existence factor too. Instead, we get to hear Larry drone on about defense (which indeed wasn't so great!)
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Does a coach make a difference?

Post  deusXango on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:50 am

Oracle wrote: It's not that Frank is horrible, he isn't. It's just that he's so ordinary, and obviously only a caretaker coach!

Oracle, isn't that the description of an assistant coach? Do you believe, in your heart of hearts, that this man should be leading the Pistons?

Love that picture, by the way!!
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Are you kidding?

Post  Oracle on Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:24 am

deusXango wrote:
Oracle wrote: It's not that Frank is horrible, he isn't. It's just that he's so ordinary, and obviously only a caretaker coach!

Oracle, isn't that the description of an assistant coach? Do you believe, in your heart of hearts, that this man should be leading the Pistons?

Love that picture, by the way!!

I never thought Frank was the right coach for this team! I always thought he was an interium coach to get us through the talent building process. Once the talent was firmly in place, you're going to need a real coach, and Frank doesn't qualify, IMO.

I only defend him from the standpoint that he's qualified to lead the transition because he does stress defense, and young players NEED that focus, because all of their lives, offense was the sexy part of their game, and what got them attention.

At this level, defense has to be drilled into their heads, and Frank is doing a good job of that. Also, there is the outside chance that Frank could show us something we didn't think he had, in which case he could buy a few more years, but I doubt it.

So to clarify.
1. IMO, Frank is not the coach we will need after this season, but I remain willing to be convinced otherwise.
2. It's not good to change coaches in the process of a season unless there are exceptional circumstances.
3. As mentioned earlier(I think Grizz), Frank needs Joe's help to play the right lineup. Joe needs to make some moves, and I think he will because Maxiell's stock is off the charts right now, and Prince's stock is quite high as well. CV is doing ok, but I don't think he's doing well enough to get other teams interested enough to want him.
4. If we don't see Drummond close to starting by midseason, and English is still riding the pine, and Middelton can't even see garbage time, we're approaching exceptional conditions.

BTW, when I saw that picture, it had Larry Frank written all over it, LOL!!!
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Frank is not good enough ... yet ....

Post  Grizz2 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:17 am

Oracle wrote:
deusXango wrote:
Oracle wrote: It's not that Frank is horrible, he isn't. It's just that he's so ordinary, and obviously only a caretaker coach!

Oracle, isn't that the description of an assistant coach? Do you believe, in your heart of hearts, that this man should be leading the Pistons?

Love that picture, by the way!!

I never thought Frank was the right coach for this team! I always thought he was an interium coach to get us through the talent building process. Once the talent was firmly in place, you're going to need a real coach, and Frank doesn't qualify, IMO.

I only defend him from the standpoint that he's qualified to lead the transition because he does stress defense, and young players NEED that focus, because all of their lives, offense was the sexy part of their game, and what got them attention.

At this level, defense has to be drilled into their heads, and Frank is doing a good job of that. Also, there is the outside chance that Frank could show us something we didn't think he had, in which case he could buy a few more years, but I doubt it.

So to clarify.
1. IMO, Frank is not the coach we will need after this season, but I remain willing to be convinced otherwise.
2. It's not good to change coaches in the process of a season unless there are exceptional circumstances.
3. As mentioned earlier(I think Grizz), Frank needs Joe's help to play the right lineup. Joe needs to make some moves, and I think he will because Maxiell's stock is off the charts right now, and Prince's stock is quite high as well. CV is doing ok, but I don't think he's doing well enough to get other teams interested enough to want him.
4. If we don't see Drummond close to starting by midseason, and English is still riding the pine, and Middelton can't even see garbage time, we're approaching exceptional conditions.

BTW, when I saw that picture, it had Larry Frank written all over it, LOL!!!

Oracle .. I dont think any GM or fan or player should say .. we can tolerate a mediocre head coach .. whether you are contending . or rebuilding ... We need someone at least smart enought to realize Jmax is not good enough to start in the NBA .. so we might as well play a young player with a high ceiling .. and whose current stats per 36 min are better in almost every category.....Respect to Jmax for working hard in the games to contribute what he can .. Respect (some) to Frank for showing respect to the vets .. Since Frank has improved .. we can only hope for more improvement .. Is it possible Frank will make the last 2 or 3 moves this team needs before the season ends and become a good coach? Yes .. a chance of that .. (1. Make good counter-moves to player or strategy changes by the opposing coach. 2. Start Drummond and let Jmax back up PF and Kravstov back up center. 3. CUT WAY DOWN on the ISO plays and use more plays involving passing, cutting, and setting picks.)..But I am not saying to myself we dont need a better coach now or ... that Frank doesnt need to improve every game on out .. We do . .. he does .. But I think we can, as you and others have said ... give LF some more time to see if he can hack it ..

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Knight

Post  Oracle on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:21 am

In real time, the Holiday crossover on Knight looked devastating. However, after reviewing the tape, it appears that Brandon was tripped by the big man, and didn't just fall on his ass for no good reason.

Brandon still has a serious deep thigh bruise, but he shocked me the way he was attacking the rim in traffic. I swear he almost looked like Zeke the way he attacked, even Philly bigs!

I was worried about him earlier, but this kid is not only a hard worker, Brandon has a lot of heart, and I like that.

Grizz brought up a very good point. Could somebody tell the coach that he doesn't have anybody on this team named LeBron or Kobe, or Shaq(ok, Drummond will get there). So STOP the silly ISO's!

I know that you need to do a few to keep the other team honest, but we're doing way more than a no ISO capable team should.

Having said that, the best ISO players we have are probably Stuckey, Knight & Drummond when he matures. Prince can do it when he has a mismatch, and monroe when he's facing a slow center.

Unfortunately for us, none of the are really great at ISO's, so STOP!!!
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Worst free throw ever!

Post  Oracle on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:24 am

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Better Game By Monroe

Post  WTF on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:58 am

But.....yes there's a but....

He did it against a team that virtually played with out a quality center so what happens when he runs into another stretch of quality bigs? Noce to see him do the things he did but I have to wait to see what happens next.

Again we were doomed by more TO's and pure decision making with the ball at the end...CV hits big three to tie the game 91-91 and we falter from there.
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Doug Collins

Post  Murph on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:11 am

I can't believe Doug Collins has that rag-tag bunch of 6ers playing so well. I mean, except for Holiday, who is a budding All-Star, look at their line-up. They started a 6'9 nobody at center, and a 6'8 SF at power forward, and two shooting guards, and except for Hawes, their bench contributed nothing...and they beat us fairly easily.

Meanwhile, we have miss-used talent all up and down the roster.

Coaching does make a difference.


Anyway...at least Prince and Monroe played well. Next up?....the Denver Nuggets.
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Coaching

Post  lemonpen on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:05 am

Coaches don’t often lose games but sometimes they can really help win one with a well timed change. Last night LF had the opportunity to be “that guy” but failed. We basically sat on our hands through crunch time until too late.

Last night Frank allowed us to play a passive defense down the stretch. Dru Holiday was permitted to go where ever the freak he wanted over and over again. Neither the coach nor our defender seemed to notice Dru had to move right each time B4 finishing. Guys on the bench should notice things like that early then be ready to take advantage of it later. We waited way too late to trap and get the ball out of Holidays hands, then did a crappy job of preventing him from getting it back.
I would love to know why we didn’t pull a surprise trap on a Philly inbound play, or something.

Going back to the Cavs game.
Byron Scott did a masterful job in preparing his guys to play us a 2nd time. They took super advantage of our rebounding weakness, and instead of attacking the rim again to the tune of a million blocked shots they moved the ball to get open 3pt shots for their most capable shooters. It seemed we did little by plan to counter their attack of the offensive glass. Sideshow Bob & Zeller continued to have their way.
The only thing I credit Frank for was playing AD an extended 2nd half shift after recognizing that his size disrupted the Cavs rebounding advantage.

LF is gonna have bone up a bit too.
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Are you kidding?

Post  deusXango on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:25 am

Oracle, I can't believe I'm typing this (it's like my fingers have a life of their own) but, I'm willing to give Lil' Larry the benefit of this entire season to see what comes of it. You made a very compelling arguement in favor of patience with this coach, for what he's here for, and I won't look for flaws just for the sake of fault finding, he's trying his best. Maxiell is a brute; the only role model we have on this team for big man "get in your ass" play, and to that end, Drummond is learning to play his game. The sad part (and I missed it) is that Maxiell is 6' 6", the height of your average SG, and fans are not ready for a PF of that size. Again I say, he's a brute, shot blocker, who doesn't back down. He's strong as a bull, and has worked on his mid-range game; these are the things Drummond needs to address in order to advance to next level of play. Physically gifted with speed and athleticism is not enough, without heart, work ethic, and smarts.

Are you a lawyer Oracle?
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Re: FORUM

Post  WTF on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:58 am

deusXango wrote:Oracle, I can't believe I'm typing this (it's like my fingers have a life of their own) but, I'm willing to give Lil' Larry the benefit of this entire season to see what comes of it. You made a very compelling arguement in favor of patience with this coach, for what he's here for, and I won't look for flaws just for the sake of fault finding, he's trying his best. Maxiell is a brute; the only role model we have on this team for big man "get in your ass" play, and to that end, Drummond is learning to play his game. The sad part (and I missed it) is that Maxiell is 6' 6", the height of your average SG, and fans are not ready for a PF of that size. Again I say, he's a brute, shot blocker, who doesn't back down. He's strong as a bull, and has worked on his mid-range game; these are the things Drummond needs to address in order to advance to next level of play. Physically gifted with speed and athleticism is not enough, without heart, work ethic, and smarts.

Are you a lawyer Oracle?

No but he played one on tv. It's hard to fault LF on much after reading his comments on how the organization are pushing him for wins and not development.
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The Charlie V Factor?

Post  Murph on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:00 am

I also can't believe the Detroit media is putting out a series of stories about how well Charlie V is playing. Yawn.

I mean, I've grown tired of bashing the guy; it's like shooting fish in a barrel. And admittedly, he's playing better than Jonas Jerebko, who has suddenly forgotten how to play basketball. But objectively speaking, Charlie's putting up career low numbers in rebounds and near low numbers in points per game.

You know what it is? Our expectations for Charlie V are so low, that when he has 8 pts and 5 rbds like last night, everyone is so surprised that they think he's had a good game.

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The Charlie V Factor?

Post  WTF on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:12 am

Murph wrote:I also can't believe the Detroit media is putting out a series of stories about how well Charlie V is playing. Yawn.

I mean, I've grown tired of bashing the guy; it's like shooting fish in a barrel. And admittedly, he's playing better than Jonas Jerebko, who has suddenly forgotten how to play basketball. But objectively speaking, Charlie's putting up career low numbers in rebounds and near low numbers in points per game.

You know what it is? Our expectations for Charlie V are so low, that when he has 8 pts and 5 rbds like last night, everyone is so surprised that they think he's had a good game.


Oh stop it Murph, it's not about his rebounding and point stats. You have to admit 2 things here with Charlie 1. His presence on the floor has allowed Stuckey more room to work the lanes. 2. He really hasn't been all that bad out there.

He's running hard, a couple of times last night he push the ball up court, Kelser killed him for not giving it to a guard on an alley oop attempt to Drummond. I think it was a good play and that more times than not Charlie makes that pass. BTW 5 rebounds for Charile is pretty good Very Happy
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Improved

Post  lemonpen on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:32 am

I took a look at our team stats and was surprised to find that we have shown year over year improvement in 95% of the catagories covered. We are actually top ten in the Association for points in the paint and opp shooting %. As I recall we were getting torched by 25 points damn near each of our first 25 games in 2011.

Now the conversation is about blown 4th quarter leads.
pom pom banana dance banana dance clap clap pom pom






I felt like being a cheerleader.
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L. Frank must go ...

Post  Sebastian on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:19 pm

Piston Pals, L. Frank must go, sooner rather than later. Here are the primary reasons why:

1- The players have tuned him out. Singler is the only player that does what L. Frank has asked that he does. Singler runs to the corner or the arc everytime down the floor, as he has been instructed to do, but he is the only player that is listening to L. Frank.

2- Neither of OUR PGs are listening to L. Frank. B. Knight and Stuckey just do not respect the dude.

3- L. Frank continues to not play Moose and Dre together for significant minutes.

4- L. Frank has refused to put English or Jerebko in games for like two or three weeks.

5- L. Frank has not been successful at coaching the last 5 minutes of games.

There are more reasons, why I think L. Frank should be fired, now, but I want list them all.

The next coach for OUR squad should be Isiah Thomas. Zeke would be the best instructor for both, B. Knight and Stuckey. He would find the proper minutes for Drummond and English. He would have Singler play in a role that is best suited for him (8th or 9th man).

Zeke would help to fill the seats at the Palace, too.

L. Frank has the remainder of this current season and a full year remaining on his contract, with the Pistons having the option on a fourth year, but the Pistons need to cut him loose, now and hire Zeke.
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L. Frank must go ...

Post  WTF on Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:13 pm

Sebastian wrote:Piston Pals, L. Frank must go, sooner rather than later. Here are the primary reasons why:

1- The players have tuned him out. Singler is the only player that does what L. Frank has asked that he does. Singler runs to the corner or the arc everytime down the floor, as he has been instructed to do, but he is the only player that is listening to L. Frank.

2- Neither of OUR PGs are listening to L. Frank. B. Knight and Stuckey just do not respect the dude.

3- L. Frank continues to not play Moose and Dre together for significant minutes.

4- L. Frank has refused to put English or Jerebko in games for like two or three weeks.

5- L. Frank has not been successful at coaching the last 5 minutes of games.

There are more reasons, why I think L. Frank should be fired, now, but I want list them all.

The next coach for OUR squad should be Isiah Thomas. Zeke would be the best instructor for both, B. Knight and Stuckey. He would find the proper minutes for Drummond and English. He would have Singler play in a role that is best suited for him (8th or 9th man).

Zeke would help to fill the seats at the Palace, too.

L. Frank has the remainder of this current season and a full year remaining on his contract, with the Pistons having the option on a fourth year, but the Pistons need to cut him loose, now and hire Zeke.

Sorry Sebastian but LF has nothing to do with the faltering play of the team in the last 5 minutes. I'm sure he's not instructing them to mis-handle the ball and poor decision making from the PG's.

Sorry but JJ stunk from the word "go" and deserves to be sitting on the bench right now. As for English there's no room and LF is doing the correct thing by playing a 3 guard rotation and only foul trouble should dictates when either Bynum or English see's any PT.

You also can't be mad at LF for how he plays Drummond and Monroe when it's been clearly dicated how Drummond should be handle by Joe and Gores. Be mad at those 2 for that.....

I don't neccessarily think LF is the right coach for this team, but he's no different than Curry and Kuester in following the direction that Joe has put in placed.

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