Minny

[deusXango]

Sparma, I'm on the same page with you. Beasley for Gordon? I'd do it all day!

[frankied]

Trying to think when was that last time a dominate PF-C combination won a title. Only 4 times has a title been won with a balance rosters and we did it 3 of those times and all three time the teams were carried by the backcourt.

I thought McHale-Parrish but McHale was the HOF in that front court. Kareem always had a serviceable big next to him, KG had Perkins serviceable, Duncan did it with his backcourt, Shaq did it with 2 SG's and LA plays better when either Gasol or Bynum is missing that starting line up isn't as great as you would like it to be. Just saying we need to be careful with what we fill the center spot with.

are you kidding?
wallace and wallace.
dominant defensively. they could switch off, guard each other's man, block shots. the year they won the title, they were about as good defensively, as you would ever want a big man combination to be.
the defensive player of the decade, and a guy who could be as good defensively, as any big man in the league. ask dwight howard about sheed.

[frankied]

Sparma, I'm on the same page with you. Beasley for Gordon? I'd do it all day!

i am not a huge beasley fan - a very inefficient scorer - but i'd take him for ben g. or CV or max. he's worth a shot. but heck, i think minnesota only gave miami a second round pick for him, so how much value does he really have?

[merc]

Ha, I got banned from PF for saying "Lee can suck it cause he hates all coaches" ... it's cool, Roscoe once told me I had to wipe my feet because it's his house... control freak...he can't handle real world confrontations... several posters took issue with Lee's constant self promotion and degraded comments ...sorry for helping Roscoe promote a sheltered Disneyland after he got banned from the News. Fuck off queeny lol
Free speech

[deusXango]

This is the elephant in the room; every knowledgable fan, and this forum is filled with knowledgable fans, know that if we acquire Cousins then he becomes the "man." We're in love with Monroe, and I include myself in that number, but the fact is PF's don't lead teams to championships, just ask Karl Malone or Charles Barkley. HOFer's but no ring. The strange thing is I don't think Monroe would have a problem with it, we do! Cousins would be the man doing the heavy lifting in the paint and Monroe would be playing with Cousins, not the other way around. Monroe is a team player and one I believe just wants to win. Stuckey has taken a step back with the arrival of Knight, and I believe Monroe would do the same should Cousins come here. There really is no problem other than fan sentiment. The teams intelligence has been ratched up to a whole new level. We got team players not "me" players now.

[WTF]

Trying to think when was that last time a dominate PF-C combination won a title. Only 4 times has a title been won with a balance rosters and we did it 3 of those times and all three time the teams were carried by the backcourt.

I thought McHale-Parrish but McHale was the HOF in that front court. Kareem always had a serviceable big next to him, KG had Perkins serviceable, Duncan did it with his backcourt, Shaq did it with 2 SG's and LA plays better when either Gasol or Bynum is missing that starting line up isn't as great as you would like it to be. Just saying we need to be careful with what we fill the center spot with.

are you kidding?
wallace and wallace.
dominant defensively. they could switch off, guard each other's man, block shots. the year they won the title, they were about as good defensively, as you would ever want a big man combination to be.
the defensive player of the decade, and a guy who could be as good defensively, as any big man in the league. ask dwight howard about sheed.

Sorry frankie that both were exceptional players but role players but they weren't double-double guys they simply played their role. The point I'm trying to make is that is that role players are required someone has to be the lesser players. A Cousin-Monroe frontcourt is not a Wallace-Wallace is it? Having 2 defensive minded bigs is not what everyone is clamouring for and the Wallace were just that although Sheed was capable of putting up points.

Let not start overstating the Wallace's role though a important one.

[deusXango]

Sparma, I'm on the same page with you. Beasley for Gordon? I'd do it all day!

i am not a huge beasley fan - a very inefficient scorer - but i'd take him for ben g. or CV or max. he's worth a shot. but heck, i think minnesota only gave miami a second round pick for him, so how much value does he really have?

Enough value to relieve us of Gordon, Maxiell, or Villanueva? Is that more than a secound rounder Frankie? We're in bad shape and he's a step out of the mire we're in.

[frankied]

Trying to think when was that last time a dominate PF-C combination won a title. Only 4 times has a title been won with a balance rosters and we did it 3 of those times and all three time the teams were carried by the backcourt.

I thought McHale-Parrish but McHale was the HOF in that front court. Kareem always had a serviceable big next to him, KG had Perkins serviceable, Duncan did it with his backcourt, Shaq did it with 2 SG's and LA plays better when either Gasol or Bynum is missing that starting line up isn't as great as you would like it to be. Just saying we need to be careful with what we fill the center spot with.

are you kidding?
wallace and wallace.
dominant defensively. they could switch off, guard each other's man, block shots. the year they won the title, they were about as good defensively, as you would ever want a big man combination to be.
the defensive player of the decade, and a guy who could be as good defensively, as any big man in the league. ask dwight howard about sheed.

Sorry frankie that both were exceptional players but role players but they weren't double-double guys they simply played their role. The point I'm trying to make is that is that role players are required someone has to be the lesser players. A Cousin-Monroe frontcourt is not a Wallace-Wallace is it? Having 2 defensive minded bigs is not what everyone is clamouring for and the Wallace were just that although Sheed was capable of putting up points.

Let not start overstating the Wallace's role though a important one.

role players?
the best defensive big man of the decade? a 4 time defensive player of the year? a "role" player?
sheed, acknowledged by everyone as one of the most talented players of this generation. a guy that many peers viewed as the best player they played against...when he wanted to play? a guy who could dominate other big men, both offensively and defensively?
and let's keep remembering....defense wins titles. nique scored all those points, made hellified dunks for years and never won jackshyte.
the defensive dominance of a big man duo is the most important part of what those guys could do. period. a team without a good-to-excellent defensive tandem of bigs is not going to win anything. so when you have a dominant duo - like wallace and wallace - you win a title and contend every year.
overstating their role?
are you serious?

[frankied]

Sparma, I'm on the same page with you. Beasley for Gordon? I'd do it all day!

i am not a huge beasley fan - a very inefficient scorer - but i'd take him for ben g. or CV or max. he's worth a shot. but heck, i think minnesota only gave miami a second round pick for him, so how much value does he really have?

Enough value to relieve us of Gordon, Maxiell, or Villanueva? Is that more than a secound rounder Frankie? We're in bad shape and he's a step out of the mire we're in.

DX,
i'd take beasley in a new york minute. especially for gordon.
but you might not have to give up even gordon for him. his value is so low now they are probably thinking about dumping him for just about anything they can get.
come to think of it, though, that is pretty much what we're trying to do with gordon....

[WTF]

This is the elephant in the room; every knowledgable fan, and this forum is filled with knowledgable fans, know that if we acquire Cousins then he becomes the "man." We're in love with Monroe, and I include myself in that number, but the fact is PF's don't lead teams to championships, just ask Karl Malone or Charles Barkley. HOFer's but no ring. The strange thing is I don't think Monroe would have a problem with it, we do! Cousins would be the man doing the heavy lifting in the paint and Monroe would be playing with Cousins, not the other way around. Monroe is a team player and one I believe just wants to win. Stuckey has taken a step back with the arrival of Knight, and I believe Monroe would do the same should Cousins come here. There really is no problem other than fan sentiment. The teams intelligence has been ratched up to a whole new level. We got team players not "me" players now.

Perhaps you're right DX Monroe would defer his status but Cousins isn't Shaq and even Shaq required the All Star talents of Wade, Kobe and even Hardaway and that my friend we don't have. I simply don't see Knight and Stuckey ever being as good as Zeke and Joe nor Chauncey or Rip. I think Barnes is restricted in the college game and would be so much better in the pro's he would definitely be better than Tay and Austin.

Cousins will take away from everyone's game not just Monroe, JMO I could be way off base.

[WTF]

Trying to think when was that last time a dominate PF-C combination won a title. Only 4 times has a title been won with a balance rosters and we did it 3 of those times and all three time the teams were carried by the backcourt.

I thought McHale-Parrish but McHale was the HOF in that front court. Kareem always had a serviceable big next to him, KG had Perkins serviceable, Duncan did it with his backcourt, Shaq did it with 2 SG's and LA plays better when either Gasol or Bynum is missing that starting line up isn't as great as you would like it to be. Just saying we need to be careful with what we fill the center spot with.

are you kidding?
wallace and wallace.
dominant defensively. they could switch off, guard each other's man, block shots. the year they won the title, they were about as good defensively, as you would ever want a big man combination to be.
the defensive player of the decade, and a guy who could be as good defensively, as any big man in the league. ask dwight howard about sheed.

Sorry frankie that both were exceptional players but role players but they weren't double-double guys they simply played their role. The point I'm trying to make is that is that role players are required someone has to be the lesser players. A Cousin-Monroe frontcourt is not a Wallace-Wallace is it? Having 2 defensive minded bigs is not what everyone is clamouring for and the Wallace were just that although Sheed was capable of putting up points.

Let not start overstating the Wallace's role though a important one.

role players?
the best defensive big man of the decade? a 4 time defensive player of the year? a "role" player?
sheed, acknowledged by everyone as one of the most talented players of this generation. a guy that many peers viewed as the best player they played against...when he wanted to play? a guy who could dominate other big men, both offensively and defensively?
and let's keep remembering....defense wins titles. nique scored all those points, made hellified dunks for years and never won jackshyte.
the defensive dominance of a big man duo is the most important part of what those guys could do. period. a team without a good-to-excellent defensive tandem of bigs is not going to win anything. so when you have a dominant duo - like wallace and wallace - you win a title and contend every year.
overstating their role?
are you serious?

frankied stop acting as if I said the Wallaces suck, I think Lamb and Mahorn was just as good if not better they certainly defended a better class of frontcourt players than the Wallace's not like they face Parrish and McHale did they?

[WTF]

Beasley hasn't panned out in Miami or Minny why would we want him? Has to be something seriously wrong there. The bright side would be getting rid of Gordon but I don't see where Beasley could really help us if his work ethics are an issues that Miami gave him up for nothing and Minny looking to dump him. Hell give us back Darko instead.

And if Cousin can't be the man with his current team could he be the man with us. What problems are going with him that as a #1 pick he can be traded.

[frankied]

they were very good defenders but absolutely not in the class of the wallaces.
the pistons didn't become an elite defensive team until they got salley and rodman. until those two came onboard, they pistons lacked shotblocking. salley and rodman changed all that.
whenever teams started attacking the basket, the "x factor" would come into the game and shut the lane down.
as good as both laimbeer and mahorn were, as far as being good positional defenders and rebounders, neither one was a shotblocker.
salley and rodman were shotblockers and when they showed up, that is when detroit won their titles.
not only were wallace and wallace excellent positional defenders and excellent rebounders - ben was probably the best pick and roll defender, ever - but they were both excellent shotblockers. they didn't need a salley and rodman team to come in and shore up that deficiency.

[frankied]

did i miss something? is he on the block again?

[WTF]

And yes frankied they were role players important ones, every championship team has role players. So if you want to call them the best role players every I'm okay with that. Remember MJ won 6 with a team filled with role players and in that respect the Wallace tend to get overstated just a bit.

[frankied]

And yes frankied they were role players important ones, every championship team has role players. So if you want to call them the best role players every I'm okay with that. Remember MJ won 6 with a team filled with role players and in that respect the Wallace tend to get overstated just a bit.

so is dwight howard a role player?

[WTF]

they were very good defenders but absolutely not in the class of the wallaces.
the pistons didn't become an elite defensive team until they got salley and rodman. until those two came onboard, they pistons lacked shotblocking. salley and rodman changed all that.
whenever teams started attacking the basket, the "x factor" would come into the game and shut the lane down.
as good as both laimbeer and mahorn were, as far as being good positional defenders and rebounders, neither one was a shotblocker.
salley and rodman were shotblockers and when they showed up, that is when detroit won their titles.
not only were wallace and wallace excellent positional defenders and excellent rebounders - ben was probably the best pick and roll defender, ever - but they were both excellent shotblockers. they didn't need a salley and rodman team to come in and shore up that deficiency.

frankie was Lindsey and Mike just as valuable as Dennis (HOF) did most of his damage at the SF and John, Rick and Bill played a better class of players night in and night out. Definitely a big drop off in the players the Wallaces defended.

[WTF]

And yes frankied they were role players important ones, every championship team has role players. So if you want to call them the best role players every I'm okay with that. Remember MJ won 6 with a team filled with role players and in that respect the Wallace tend to get overstated just a bit.

so is dwight howard a role player?

Put him on a team with Kobe or Lebron and he most certainly is Build a team around him and he's a superstar I guess.

[frankied]

they were very good defenders but absolutely not in the class of the wallaces.
the pistons didn't become an elite defensive team until they got salley and rodman. until those two came onboard, they pistons lacked shotblocking. salley and rodman changed all that.
whenever teams started attacking the basket, the "x factor" would come into the game and shut the lane down.
as good as both laimbeer and mahorn were, as far as being good positional defenders and rebounders, neither one was a shotblocker.
salley and rodman were shotblockers and when they showed up, that is when detroit won their titles.
not only were wallace and wallace excellent positional defenders and excellent rebounders - ben was probably the best pick and roll defender, ever - but they were both excellent shotblockers. they didn't need a salley and rodman team to come in and shore up that deficiency.

frankie was Lindsey and Mike just as valuable as Dennis (HOF) did most of his damage at the SF and John, Rick and Bill played a better class of players night in and night out. Definitely a big drop off in the players the Wallaces defended.

well, i agree that there were better true big men back when laimbeer and mahorn had to defend those guys, but i think both wallaces would have excelled back then.
imho, they were simply better all around defenders than both laimbeer and mahorn, if only because they both were shotblockers and neither mahorn nor laimbeer was a shotblocker.
the ability to block shots is an extremely important part of defending. and, as i mentioned, they did not win until they got good shotblockers.
you argued that mahorn and laimbeer, not mahorn and laimbeer and salley were a better defensive duo.
imho, that lack of shotblocking is something that cannot be overlooked if you want to make comparisons.
not sure what to say about the hunter/james opinion, other than to say that one of the reasons they could play the way they played - so tight they could probably smell the other guy's deodorant - was because they had those shotblockers back there to erase any mistakes they made.
you still didn't answer my question: is dwight howard a role player?

[WTF]

No Dwight Isn't A Role Player......IMO but I hesitate to call him a super-star also.

Okay Bill didn't play above the rim but he blocked plenty of shots before player could get it off. Those were just as good as above rim blocks better in many cases because it kept the ball in play

[frankied]

No Dwight Isn't A Role Player......IMO but I hesitate to call him a super-star also.

Okay Bill didn't play above the rim but he blocked plenty of shots before player could get it off. Those were just as good as above rim blocks better in many cases because it kept the ball in play

laimbeer's blocks for his career were .9, less than a block a game. which is pretty mediocre for a center.
look, i realy liked laimbeer and don't want to dog him, but he just wasn't the defensive center that ben wallace was. no way, no how.

[Grizz]

No Dwight Isn't A Role Player......IMO but I hesitate to call him a super-star also.

Okay Bill didn't play above the rim but he blocked plenty of shots before player could get it off. Those were just as good as above rim blocks better in many cases because it kept the ball in play

laimbeer's blocks for his career were .9, less than a block a game. which is pretty mediocre for a center.
look, i realy liked laimbeer and don't want to dog him, but he just wasn't the defensive center that ben wallace was. no way, no how.

More to defense than blocks ... but .. for a center quite important .. Laimbeer was NOT a defensive center the opposition enjoyed playing because he contested everythiing .. took charges, clogged up the lane as well as anyone ever has, and disrupted offensive moves ... He was real good on D (Punking Shaq ) regularly .. Ben W was one of the best defensive centers ever .. so not fair to compare them . Should we compare the offense of Ben W and Bill L? Same thing ... though Ben W did a good job on getting to offensive rebounds

[Grizz]

This is the elephant in the room; every knowledgable fan, and this forum is filled with knowledgable fans, know that if we acquire Cousins then he becomes the "man." We're in love with Monroe, and I include myself in that number, but the fact is PF's don't lead teams to championships, just ask Karl Malone or Charles Barkley. HOFer's but no ring. The strange thing is I don't think Monroe would have a problem with it, we do! Cousins would be the man doing the heavy lifting in the paint and Monroe would be playing with Cousins, not the other way around. Monroe is a team player and one I believe just wants to win. Stuckey has taken a step back with the arrival of Knight, and I believe Monroe would do the same should Cousins come here. There really is no problem other than fan sentiment. The teams intelligence has been ratched up to a whole new level. We got team players not "me" players now.

Perhaps you're right DX Monroe would defer his status but Cousins isn't Shaq and even Shaq required the All Star talents of Wade, Kobe and even Hardaway and that my friend we don't have. I simply don't see Knight and Stuckey ever being as good as Zeke and Joe nor Chauncey or Rip. I think Barnes is restricted in the college game and would be so much better in the pro's he would definitely be better than Tay and Austin.

Cousins will take away from everyone's game not just Monroe, JMO I could be way off base.

I think you take a chance if the price isnt too high .. top 10 pick no .. but less than that yes .. any player but Monroe or Knight would be a great deal ..

[Linwood]

Ha, I got banned from PF for saying "Lee can suck it cause he hates all coaches" ... it's cool, Roscoe once told me I had to wipe my feet because it's his house... control freak...he can't handle real world confrontations... several posters took issue with Lee's constant self promotion and degraded comments ...sorry for helping Roscoe promote a sheltered Disneyland after he got banned from the News. Fuck off queeny lol
Free speech

Wow, you got banned for that? Seems like a true statement. Lee does hate all coaches. And I find the comment "suck it" far less insulting than "Gee, if you bothered to learn anything about basketball..." or, "If you had actually watched the game..." etc.

I get a kick out of Lee, but the crying over being insulted is pretty silly, considering how many passive little insults he has typed on forums.


I guess it can be a tough task balancing out the rules. I remember the old DetNews forum being page after page after page of flame wars and personal attacks that made it difficult to discuss basketball at all.

On the other hand, taking all the fire out discussions chases off some of the stronger opinions...

[Linwood]

Cousins will take away from everyone's game not just Monroe, JMO I could be way off base.

He did pretty well playing with John Wall and Patrick Patterson. John was the number one draft pick, Cousins was number five, Patrick Patterson went number fourteen, and Eric Bledsoe went 18.


I don't see how he took away from those guys game, and I don't see how he would take away from Monroe and the gang.

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