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Crap shoot

Post  Sparma on Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:37 pm

I wrote a lengthy response venturing a productivity/ expectations per draft slot quotient that got lost in the ether before posting that I'm too lazy to re-compose.

I did want to record my disagreement with the notion that the draft is a "crap shoot", especially post #5. The 2010 "Free Dark Presents..." conveys the productivity of players chosen through draft history at particular slots. There's plenty of uncertainty, but also sufficient patterns to suggest the probability of higher productivity at higher slots. On the whole, it's preferable to pick #6-10 over #11-15, etc.

Oracle wrote:The term BUST was usually applied to guys drafted somewhere around 1-3 that utterly failed to live up to expectations. Draft order is based on perception, especially when you get past 5, it's a crap shoot.

The reason I thought about this is that you both called Knight a bust, and if he's a bust, then I'm not sure what definition you guys are using.

Could either or both of you give me some of the reasons someone, especially Knight would be considered a bust?
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Expectations & Casey

Post  Sparma on Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:41 pm

Mathematically, winning now begins at 42-40. I don't have a clear sense of what level of winning Casey's referring to. Do you, Wise? 42? 55? 59? Playoff success?

In any case, I'm trying to fix what I see as realistic standards of achievements. If Casey disagreed, that would be significant, but bear in mind is that part of his job is to promote the team and psych up the players. Coming to a team that had won one game, Lombardi insisted on expect to win at once; evidently, private he conveyed to friends thinking that 4 wins would be a good achievement (GB went 7-5 in Lombardi's first year).

WTF wrote:Casey say's the team can win now so why are you all thinking it's to great of an expectation when I say 55 wins should be the standard here and nothing less than that.   

Those of you that supporting Casey needs to follow suit I think, at least this the first thing I agree with Casey on.  WIN NOW!!!!!
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Immigration

Post  Murph on Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:10 pm

Wise...the math doesn't work on unlimited illegal immigration.  So we should catch and release, or not even bother to catch all the illegal immigrants who flood in from Mexico and Guatemala.  What about Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua?  Those are poor countries also.  Should we let all the illegals from those countries flood in also?  And then there's Belize, Costa Rica and Panama.  What about Ecuador, Colombia and Venezuela, and Cuba, Haiti and the Dominican Republic?

And how many should we let in?  The last estimate was that 12 million illegal immigrants currently reside in this country, but I'm guessing that figure by now is really 15 - 25 million.  Should we let in another 10 million?  50 million? 100 million?  

And most states give free public education to immigrants, regardless of their legal status.  And of course they receive free healthcare.  No emergency room at any hospital turns anyone away, regardless of their legal status.  And many states allow illegals to receive welfare, food stamps, public housing, and free enrollment in state colleges.

As a nation, we are already $21 trillion in debt, and running an annual deficit of roughly another $750,000 billion a year.  And we still have plenty of our own problems, such as an opioid crisis, absurdly high inner city crime rates, police departments that need more personnel and better training, and miserable roads, bridges, public school buildings and airports.  Shouldn't we fix our own problems, before we open our borders to all of Central and South America?

I am all for cutting spending on many things, such as the space program and the military.  But even if we do that, total spending is going to skyrocket in the near future, because of rising entitlement spending on SS benefits and Medicare and Medicaid benefits as our legal population ages, and that doesn't even take into account more illegals.

And the thing is, no laws have even been changed.  Trump is only trying to enforce the existing laws on the books.  And Democrats are certainly disinterested in helping in any way.  They apparently want as many illegal immigrants in this country as possible.  The Dems are even going to oppose in court an executive order that Trump signed today to keep children with their families in detention centers at the border, because the Dems don't want anyone detained.


We need to build a wall, and fast.  Walls work.  Israel is an excellent example of a country with an effective border wall and border security.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:52 pm

Oracle wrote:

I have to give Oracle number 1 ranking this week with the no reason is the best reason posting on the girl showing off her ass while adjusting the red dress. Why not do this when your team's owner gets out smarted in that Clippers trade. Tom's brain trust showed they have no brains as we fans might as well skip the upcoming draft night. I watched the experts last night on ESPN talk about how well the Clippers did in that trade ridding the team of that $35 Mil salary while getting what they said was an upcoming NBA star in Tobias Harris. We have the damaged older often injured player with a long contract who makes the same money as Labron James. How exciting it is for us now especially with the new coach all signed up and eager to take our Pistons to the finals with none other than Reggie Jackson our defensive ace. Things are really great in Piston land. We have to hope that the coaches wife likes the Detroit area. Otherwise Casey might quit once he starts coaching his team in the new empty arena.

Next season our highly paid players will make the playoffs by default as many teams might be in the rebuild mode. Then within 2 or 3 years those rebuilding teams will have the young high draft picks kicking our players asses. More pictures please Mr. Oracle or I might turn to a shot of Jack Daniels like the character Benny who tried to drown his sadness when his girl friend gave him the crabs in the movie "Bring Me The Head of Alfredo Garcia".

I see there has been a discussion on the border issues. I live in a border area. What amazes me is the impact of the media where they sell folks on lies and can create a new victims group each week and get everyone excited and offended that our government leaders are so cruel. CSPAN had a panel of experts determine that the 2016 illegal immigration costs American tax payers was around 111 billion after taxes those illegals contributed.What could poor American citizens or young kids do with that money to pay for their education if given the opportunity. The drug cartels get $3,000 to $8,000 per head for crossers to accompany the coyotes who sneak them across the border and then of course house them in dirty horrible conditions while they make their way North to work as slaves in factories, hotels, and other hard labor farming jobs for next to nothing. The hospitals are bankrupt or near bankrupt in all border cities as the illegals come across the border suffering from horrific medical conditions. They get transplants and other expensive medical care that middle class people cannot afford for free. But we cannot tolerate separating parents from their children when caught committing the crime of illegally entering our country. Authorities need to screen the so called parents who are often not parents at all and are human traffic criminals. Last week the border patrol caught 6 people at night when a television reporter was allowed to go out with border patrol agents here. Five out of six of the middle aged men who were caught that night were repeat criminal offenders in the drug business who had been through the American criminal court system and sent back to Mexico. Maybe those kids are very happy to be separated from their so called parents. Who would ever risk the lives of our kids to attempt an illegal crossing given the risks relating to the high temperatures, snakes and lack of water etc. The details are important and it is amazing how gullible people who watch the bogus news reporting can be. What could our country do with $111 billion dollars that the illegals cost tax payers relating to the impact on our schools, health care, law enforcement and the legal costs. The time as come to pressure Mexico to end the flow of illegals into our country. We should have cut off all foreign aid and charged high import fees for all vehicles that are manufactured in Mexico instead of the State of Michigan and other states now. Big business owners pay off the political whores who we call representatives in Washington from both political parties to promote an open borders and obstruct any change in immigration policy. The average citizen especially the poor American citizens suffer the most from our politicians turning a blind eye to this amazing problem. Who in their right mind would want open borders except for those big business owners who have created this mess? The problem is people just follow along with their political party of choice's line and never explore the actual details. They don't know that they don't know as Mark Scott used to say on his radio show. Yet they have an opinion based on watching the television news which never tells the real story.

News flash all minority folks. Under President Trump African American employment and wages have reached historic high levels. The tax law actually really helps all middle class citizens of all races but yet the social media says Trump is a racist. Do you really believe that nonsense? North Korea might decide to scrap their nukes. Some who hate trump were hoping for a war instead of peace. The stock market hasn't collapsed as my brother predicted ( he lives in California where fake news thrives). Criminal violent gangs like MS 13 are being dealt with more seriously. And surprise surprise this President wants to at least do something to stop the illegal flow of criminals who do not go through proper channels to enter our country and especially chain migration. The media will call him cruel because he is trying to do the right thing for all American citizens not those who want to come to America illegally or the American business leaders who employ them instead of giving American citizens a fair wage. But the media creates the throbbing heart stories. They could find those same stories involving American families who are victims of crime. If people buy into the main stream media's goal of creating a lot of victims groups then the revolution can take place. Be careful what you wish for. Racism was once a big problem but that time as passed long ago. I see people of all races are getting along well here and treat each other as individuals with respect and then I come home and watch the news which offers another story about racism, or how the transgenders are mis treated, or new sexual abuse allegations etc. What are we doing as individuals to make things better? How about being kind and teaching our children to be kind instead of telling them how badly this country sucks along with most of the people who live in it who do not look exactly like you. This immigration issue will not be resolved because rich people who control the media want more people to cross the border to secure cheap labor so their profit margins get bigger. Watch the Discovery Channel series on how the Mexican government works hand in hand with the drug cartels to make this all happen for those who want those workers from Mexico who take jobs away from unemployed Americans.

Piston fans need some good news. That won't happen on draft night. Why did you do it Mr. Gores? How could you destroy the Detroit Pistons so badly?


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Sometimes

Post  WTF on Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:49 pm

Oracle wrote:

I wish I was a thong
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Excuse Me but....

Post  WTF on Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:47 pm

Casey say's the team can win now so why are you all thinking it's to great of an expectation when I say 55 wins should be the standard here and nothing less than that.   

Those of you that supporting Casey needs to follow suit I think, at least this the first thing I agree with Casey on.  WIN NOW!!!!!
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We're Not but....

Post  WTF on Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:17 pm

Murph wrote:Wise...as US taxpayers, why are we morally responsible for feeding, housing, educating and providing healthcare to every Guatemalan family that hikes into Texas illegally?


I'm talking about human decency and how this should be handle period.   Love and compassion over all else even taxpayer dollars and like I said the Moral Compass is all jacked up.   BTW our taxpaying dollars are also paying for this mess as well but still there has to be a more compassionate way of handling this matter.   

Murph at the end of the day without Love and Compassion we're nothing and setting the world up for failure.   Also our US dollars get spent on a bunch of dumb **** and people don't blink about it.  But when it comes to doing the right thing we're up in arms about it that doesn't make any sense no matter how it gets dressed up.   If we just seriously stop to think about this and what is right and wrong how could anyone think this **** is okay.

In a broader sense we're all responsible for each other and we need to start think that way and when it comes always back to $$$$$ this only proves how evil and divisive it makes us.   It certainly make us rule out Love and Compassion in our thinking,  I know in all my heart that things don't have to be the way they are, not with just this **** but a bunch of **** that ails this world period.  

If a country truly want to be the world leader, and a super power then it needs to do it with love and compassion and don't mean hugs and kisses because the wrong thing can be done for the right reasons.  Playing politics isn't the right thing at all.
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Busts: Murph & Sparma

Post  Oracle on Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:08 pm

The term BUST was usually applied to guys drafted somewhere around 1-3 that utterly failed to live up to expectations. Draft order is based on perception, especially when you get past 5, it's a crap shoot.

The reason I thought about this is that you both called Knight a bust, and if he's a bust, then I'm not sure what definition you guys are using.

Could either or both of you give me some of the reasons someone, especially Knight would be considered a bust?
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Pistons Reset

Post  BallinD on Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:20 pm

Since we're in the middle of a Pistons reset right now, why not get a "Legends" type consultant in here to the FO?  The Warriors got Steve Nash, the Clippers got Jerry West.  They are consultants, another mind in the room, not necessarily an employee.  Get a great basketball mind to join the braintrust.  Laimbeer?  Billups? KG? Caron Butler? Kenny Smith? Sheed? C-Webb? Just a few ideas of players who have good basketball minds and a former affiliation with the Stones.
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Brandon Knight as the Pistons's third biggest draft miss ever

Post  Sparma on Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:28 pm

according to detnews. That ranking surprises me a little, although I do agree he was a bust. No need to remind folks of #1. Fennis Dembo comes in at #8.
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Immigrants...

Post  Oracle on Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:07 pm

There's very little I agree with Trump about, but this situation is one of them, this illegal immigration needs to stop!

However, I draw the line at separating mothers from their children, that's not American, hell, it's not even human.

I also don't believe in walls, well, at least I don't if I have to pay for them.

If Mexico pays for the wall, then I'll feel fine, but if they're not going to pay for it... Donald, shut the f**k up.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:52 am

Wise...as US taxpayers, why are we morally responsible for feeding, housing, educating and providing healthcare to every Guatemalan family that hikes into Texas illegally?

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Re: FORUM

Post  WTF on Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:46 am

Murph wrote:Build a wall...problem solved.


WTF wrote:This is sad and I was trying not to say anything on here but I need to vent about this non basketball issue.  There has to be a better solution at the border than what's going on now.  Seriously kids in cages  facepalm  seriously separating kids from parents.  If you believe in hell there's a place waiting for those that accepts and support this action.   


I'm all for protecting borders, but only in a humane compassionate fashion and those that claim this ass as their president should be a shame of this because it's evil.  These are people human beings and if you don't believe in hell than please know that Karma is a bitch and it's very real.  You see while you're sitting here supporting this crap and thinking this clown president is funny just know that in a blink of an eye some unannounced circumstance could rear it's ugly head deliver tragedy in that exact moment you decide to cheer this dumb **** on.   

Maybe you find yourself asking God why me,  why us in that same moment the answer is Karma!!!! Reaping what you sow!!!!   This compass got to get fixed fast,  the hatred, the lies, the greed, need to end or we are doomed sooner than most think
Get new president  tb
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:28 am

Build a wall...problem solved.


WTF wrote:This is sad and I was trying not to say anything on here but I need to vent about this non basketball issue.  There has to be a better solution at the border than what's going on now.  Seriously kids in cages  facepalm  seriously separating kids from parents.  If you believe in hell there's a place waiting for those that accepts and support this action.   


I'm all for protecting borders, but only in a humane compassionate fashion and those that claim this ass as their president should be a shame of this because it's evil.  These are people human beings and if you don't believe in hell than please know that Karma is a bitch and it's very real.  You see while you're sitting here supporting this crap and thinking this clown president is funny just know that in a blink of an eye some unannounced circumstance could rear it's ugly head deliver tragedy in that exact moment you decide to cheer this dumb **** on.   

Maybe you find yourself asking God why me,  why us in that same moment the answer is Karma!!!! Reaping what you sow!!!!   This compass got to get fixed fast,  the hatred, the lies, the greed, need to end or we are doomed sooner than most think
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Again The Moral Comapss Is F**ked Up

Post  WTF on Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:25 am

This is sad and I was trying not to say anything on here but I need to vent about this non basketball issue.  There has to be a better solution at the border than what's going on now.  Seriously kids in cages  facepalm  seriously separating kids from parents.  If you believe in hell there's a place waiting for those that accepts and support this action.   


I'm all for protecting borders, but only in a humane compassionate fashion and those that claim this ass as their president should be a shame of this because it's evil.  These are people human beings and if you don't believe in hell than please know that Karma is a bitch and it's very real.  You see while you're sitting here supporting this crap and thinking this clown president is funny just know that in a blink of an eye some unannounced circumstance could rear it's ugly head deliver tragedy in that exact moment you decide to cheer this dumb **** on.   

Maybe you find yourself asking God why me,  why us in that same moment the answer is Karma!!!! Reaping what you sow!!!!   This compass got to get fixed fast,  the hatred, the lies, the greed, need to end or we are doomed sooner than most think


Last edited by WTF on Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Draft/ Murph

Post  Sparma on Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:54 pm

Great work, Murph!  Your system does seem to give an inherent preference to 2nd rounders (more to gain, less to lose).   Maybe I've undervalued holding serve on high, eg, 7-9, picks as opposed to Knight and White (let alone Darko).  I initially used Monroe and Drummond as examples, but actually your chart brings out how significantly their value rose compared to their class. Maybe you could assign bonus points for leapfrogging elite competition towards the top of the draft, but that's nitpicking.

Extraordinary job!  The Freep should run your piece.

Somewhere Lee 357's still pleading the case of Sammy Mejia (who's lighting it up in Turkey).


Murph wrote:On the eve of another NBA draft, I thought I'd do a little research into just how good or bad Joe Dumars and SVG were at drafting.  

I've put together a chart of all of our draft picks since 2000, where they were picked, and how they were ranked in their draft based on career win shares.  Then I ranked them from best to worst for both Joe and Stan, based on where they were picked, versus were they were ranked in their class.  

Joe's Picks:

Amir Johnson     56, 7,   +49
Kris Middleton    39, 7,   +32
Brian Cardinal    44, 15, +29
Mehmet Okur     38, 10  +28
Jonas Jerebko    39, 18, +21
Tayshaun Prince 23, 5,  +18
Aaron Afflalo      27, 10, +17
Chase Buddnger 44, 28, +16
Will Blaylock       60, 48, +12
Vern Macklin      52, 42, +10
Payton Silva       56, 49, +7
Andre Drummond 9, 3,  +6
Alex Acker          60, 54, +6
Greg Monroe        7, 2,  +5
Carlos Delfino    25, 20, +5
Kyle Singler       33, 28, +5
Rodney Stuckey 15, 12, +3
Jason Maxiell     26, 23, +3
Kim English       44, 44,  0

KCP                   8, 11,  -3
Tony Mitchell    37, 40   -3
DJ White          29, 35   -6
D. Summers     35, 47, -12
A.Glyniadakis    46, 58, -12
Brandon Knight  8, 24,  -16
Austin Daye      15, 35, -20
Rodney White     9, 32, -23
Darko Milicic      2, 32, -30
Mateen Cleaves 14, 49 -35
D.Washinton     59, never played
Sammy Mejia    57, never played
Ricky Paulding  54, never played
Terrico White    36, never played

Stan's picks:

S. Dinwiddie   38, 15,  +23
M. Gbinijie      49, 46   +3
Luke Kennard 12, 11,   +1

Darrun Hilliard 38, 40, -2
S. Johnson      8, 27,  -19
H. Ellenson    18, 42   -24

Please note, this is certainly an inexact study.  There seem to be several outliers that don't make any sense, such as Blalock, Machlin, Silva, Acker, English and Gbinijie.  This mostly occurs with late second round picks that were terrible, but not as terrible as many of the players picked ahead of them.

From this study, I have several observations.  1) Joe was much, much better at drafting and developing players than Stan (no surprise there).  2)  Joes biggest busts were Cleaves, Darko, White, Daye and Knight.  3)  However these busts were off-set by many brilliant picks by Joe, which were mostly from the 2nd round, such as Johnson, Middleton, Cardinal, Okur, Jerebko and Buddinger. 4) Stan's only great pick was Dinwiddie, who he dumped for nothing.  5)  Although it's early in their careers, Ellenson and SJ are shaping up to be busts.  6)  All of our top 10 ranked players in their draft classes were taken by Joe, and they are Monroe, Drummond, Prince, Middleton, Johnson, Afflalo and Okur.  It's possible KCP and Kennard could become top 10 ranked in their draft classes also.
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Draft

Post  Murph on Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:05 pm

On the eve of another NBA draft, I thought I'd do a little research into just how good or bad Joe Dumars and SVG were at drafting.  

I've put together a chart of all of our draft picks since 2000, where they were picked, and how they were ranked in their draft based on career win shares.  Then I ranked them from best to worst for both Joe and Stan, based on where they were picked, versus were they were ranked in their class.  

Joe's Picks:

Amir Johnson     56, 7,   +49
Kris Middleton    39, 7,   +32
Brian Cardinal    44, 15, +29
Mehmet Okur     38, 10  +28
Jonas Jerebko    39, 18, +21
Tayshaun Prince 23, 5,  +18
Aaron Afflalo      27, 10, +17
Chase Buddnger 44, 28, +16
Will Blaylock       60, 48, +12
A.Glyniadakis      58, 46, +12
Vern Macklin      52, 42, +10
Payton Silva       56, 49, +7
Andre Drummond 9, 3,  +6
Alex Acker          60, 54, +6
Greg Monroe        7, 2,  +5
Carlos Delfino    25, 20, +5
Kyle Singler       33, 28, +5
Rodney Stuckey 15, 12, +3
Jason Maxiell     26, 23, +3
Kim English       44, 44,  0

KCP                   8, 11,  -3
Tony Mitchell    37, 40   -3
DJ White          29, 35   -6
D. Summers     35, 47, -12
Brandon Knight  8, 24,  -16
Austin Daye      15, 35, -20
Rodney White     9, 32, -23
Darko Milicic      2, 32, -30
Mateen Cleaves 14, 49 -35
D.Washinton     59, never played
Sammy Mejia    57, never played
Ricky Paulding  54, never played
Terrico White    36, never played

Stan's picks:

S. Dinwiddie   38, 15,  +23
M. Gbinijie      49, 46   +3
Luke Kennard 12, 11,   +1

Darrun Hilliard 38, 40, -2
S. Johnson      8, 27,  -19
H. Ellenson    18, 42   -24

Please note, this is certainly an inexact study.  There seem to be several outliers that don't make any sense, such as Blalock, Glyniadakis, Machlin, Silva, Acker, English and Gbinijie.  This mostly occurs with late second round picks that were terrible, but not as terrible as many of the players picked ahead of them.

From this study, I have several observations.  1) Joe was much, much better at drafting and developing players than Stan (no surprise there).  2)  Joes biggest busts were Cleaves, Darko, White, Daye and Knight.  3)  However these busts were off-set by many brilliant picks by Joe, which were mostly from the 2nd round, such as Johnson, Middleton, Cardinal, Okur, Jerebko and Buddinger. 4) Stan's only great pick was Dinwiddie, who he dumped for nothing.  5)  Although it's early in their careers, Ellenson and SJ are shaping up to be busts.  6)  All of our top 10 ranked players in their draft classes were taken by Joe, and they are Monroe, Drummond, Prince, Middleton, Johnson, Afflalo and Okur.  It's possible KCP and Kennard could become top 10 ranked in their draft classes also.


Last edited by Murph on Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:58 am; edited 3 times in total
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More Fake News

Post  Murph on Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:08 am

Phil...take the red pill. lol

Phil1980boy wrote:Did anybody read this Bull S.H.I.T article from the free press today?

Check out this quote. "Van Gundy's four years represent the most stable period for the franchise since Chuck Daly and Jack."

What the F.U.C.K man! AM I in the F.U.C.K.I.N.G MATRIX? Is this REALITY? What the F.U.C.K. Does anybody do they research anymore before A article is posted.

So Joe Dumars taking this franchise to 6 straight Eastern conference finals, two NBA finals, several division championships, Leading the NBA in attendance for like 11 years in A row, winning A NBA championship, winning Executive of the year, having 4 All stars, Ben Wallace winning defensive player of the year 4 times, Corless Williamson winning 6th man of the year, Billups winning NBA finals MVP. Ben Wallace, RIP Hamilton and C.Billups having their numbers retired is not "Stability?"


WOW!!! So Van Gundy's 4 years represent "Stability." WOW!  lol  lol

Wow Tom Gores. You really are A SACK OF S.H.I.T The Free Press is also.

I know Gores only like Blacks bouncing the basketball or coaching but don't try to ERASH what the F.U.C.K Joe did.
I call that S.H.I.T stability to the 1000 POWER!


F.YOU GORES and the Free Press.
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Tom Gores is A TRASH OWNER

Post  Phil1980boy on Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:34 am

Did anybody read this Bull S.H.I.T article from the free press today?

Check out this quote. "Van Gundy's four years represent the most stable period for the franchise since Chuck Daly and Jack."

What the F.U.C.K man! AM I in the F.U.C.K.I.N.G MATRIX? Is this REALITY? What the F.U.C.K. Does anybody do they research anymore before A article is posted.

So Joe Dumars taking this franchise to 6 straight Eastern conference finals, two NBA finals, several division championships, Leading the NBA in attendance for like 11 years in A row, winning A NBA championship, winning Executive of the year, having 4 All stars, Ben Wallace winning defensive player of the year 4 times, Corless Williamson winning 6th man of the year, Billups winning NBA finals MVP. Ben Wallace, RIP Hamilton and C.Billups having their numbers retired is not "Stability?"


WOW!!! So Van Gundy's 4 years represent "Stability." WOW!  lol  lol

Wow Tom Gores. You really are A SACK OF S.H.I.T The Free Press is also.

I know Gores only like Blacks bouncing the basketball or coaching but don't try to ERASH what the F.U.C.K Joe did.
I call that S.H.I.T stability to the 1000 POWER!


F.YOU GORES and the Free Press.
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No purpose, just to lighten things up, lol

Post  Oracle on Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:17 am

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And Here We Go

Post  BallinD on Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:01 am

@Sparma: Absolutely unbelievable the incompetence here. We clearly need additional advisers here before we solidify the Stefanski way, which it is hoped will be significantly better than the SVG way. Get Chauncey, what about Dave Bing. Sheesh, of course Zeek, and Ben!.


Sparma wrote:Interesting and insightful post on Gores, Oracle.

Having read his lengthy interview with Ellis, I'm going to pick out a few things.  I'm afraid that Murph's comment about us becoming old and grumpy applies to me and my reaction.  A number of apparently innocuous comments didn't sit well with me.

Gores: "As much as he brings in experience, we really wanted to make sure that he really liked this team."  Makes sense.  That's something you'd look for in most interviews.  Still, I'm worried that they so prioritize hiring someone who won't rock the boat.  No wonder Drummond feels reassured he's staying.  (Maybe we'll all get surprised.)

Gores: "and I think she [Brenda Casey] was surprised. ‘Geez, what is so good about this? Are you sure?’"  Sounds like there's at least one realist in the family.  Yet Gores says: "I didn’t have to sell her really."

Gores: "It was in a lot bigger disarray than we even knew at the time."  Self-excusing, or is he providing some genuine insight here?

On SVG's combined authority: "But the day-to-day job is hard on one person.”   Wait, what?  I thought SVG had clarified multiple times that he left the day to day front office details to others, joining in with the big decisions.  Someone's weaving a narrative here, and I suspect it's Gores, rather than SVG.

On Stefanski: "When I started Platinum (Equity), I combined the young, hungry research-oriented people with experienced people. That’s really a model I do like. …"  Might make some sense.  At this point I've become worried that Stefanski's authority creep might make a genuinely talented young executive reluctant to join.  I'd like to know more about why Shane Battier, a local guy and eminently qualified, bailed.

Gores on SVG: "Even when you look at hiring Stan. We brought a great man to Detroit. I don’t call that a mistake, I call that a bridge — a bridge to another place. We needed that bridge to get to greatness.”  Ellis mentions having done some editing.  I hope this is a case in point, because otherwise Gores sounds delusional about the Pistons.  He's been referring to failures at Platinum and how success ensued.  Greatness there?  Maybe (although I'm inclined to be skeptical about private equity companies).  But SVG as the Pistons' bridge to greatness???

Etc.

Ellis begins by summing Gores's mood up as hopeful.  I want to join him in being hopeful.  Indeed, I think there's some reason to be hopeful in a bounded way.  In all, I don't come away from reading that interview (twice) glad that Gores is the owner of the basketball team.  Maybe  the best thing he'll do is to contribute to the revitalization of the community.  That's more important than basketball.  Still, as a fan, whatever hope I have for the basketball team is mixed with significant apprehension.  To some extent, Casey's allayed that apprehension (eg I love that he said to major players that he understands that he doesn't have their trust yet, and that he needs to earn that trust).  Gores hasn't.

@Oracle: "The one thing that was consistent with this management team was the inability to cut deals with players to get something back instead of letting them walk." To me this is a combination of arrogance and pennywise and pound foolish: saving money now off the cap, but having lost an asset and having to pay in some way to replace it.

I went on and on about this, but the reality of this behavior is hat it exposes how they can't plan well enough to solve problems that are solved routinely in the NBA every year without this happening! This is much more a people oriented business than what Gores does. You'd think he would be able to adapt. Sounds like he should listen more to Tellem. Get a Piston in here.

The bottom line is that this management team stinks from the head(Gores), as all bad management teams do!
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Gores

Post  Sparma on Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:28 pm

Interesting and insightful post on Gores, Oracle.

Having read his lengthy interview with Ellis, I'm going to pick out a few things. I'm afraid that Murph's comment about us becoming old and grumpy applies to me and my reaction. A number of apparently innocuous comments didn't sit well with me.

Gores: "As much as he brings in experience, we really wanted to make sure that he really liked this team." Makes sense. That's something you'd look for in most interviews. Still, I'm worried that they so prioritize hiring someone who won't rock the boat. No wonder Drummond feels reassured he's staying. (Maybe we'll all get surprised.)

Gores: "and I think she [Brenda Casey] was surprised. ‘Geez, what is so good about this? Are you sure?’" Sounds like there's at least one realist in the family. Yet Gores says: "I didn’t have to sell her really."

Gores: "It was in a lot bigger disarray than we even knew at the time." Self-excusing, or is he providing some genuine insight here?

On SVG's combined authority: "But the day-to-day job is hard on one person.” Wait, what? I thought SVG had clarified multiple times that he left the day to day front office details to others, joining in with the big decisions. Someone's weaving a narrative here, and I suspect it's Gores, rather than SVG.

On Stefanski: "When I started Platinum (Equity), I combined the young, hungry research-oriented people with experienced people. That’s really a model I do like. …" Might make some sense. At this point I've become worried that Stefanski's authority creep might make a genuinely talented young executive reluctant to join. I'd like to know more about why Shane Battier, a local guy and eminently qualified, bailed.

Gores on SVG: "Even when you look at hiring Stan. We brought a great man to Detroit. I don’t call that a mistake, I call that a bridge — a bridge to another place. We needed that bridge to get to greatness.” Ellis mentions having done some editing. I hope this is a case in point, because otherwise Gores sounds delusional about the Pistons. He's been referring to failures at Platinum and how success ensued. Greatness there? Maybe (although I'm inclined to be skeptical about private equity companies). But SVG as the Pistons' bridge to greatness???

Etc.

Ellis begins by summing Gores's mood up as hopeful. I want to join him in being hopeful. Indeed, I think there's some reason to be hopeful in a bounded way. In all, I don't come away from reading that interview (twice) glad that Gores is the owner of the basketball team. Maybe the best thing he'll do is to contribute to the revitalization of the community. That's more important than basketball. Still, as a fan, whatever hope I have for the basketball team is mixed with significant apprehension. To some extent, Casey's allayed that apprehension (eg I love that he said to major players that he understands that he doesn't have their trust yet, and that he needs to earn that trust). Gores hasn't.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Sparma on Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:44 pm

Interesting article, BallinD. Can't see us buying a 1st rounder, but doesn't Philly have 4 second rounders? Unless they can pull off a major trade there's got to be an opening there.

Vince Ellis's hit the jackpot now with a 30 minute interview with Gores. Both good (exclusive!) and bad (he's the go to guy for the team (other than the discredited Langlois)).

Gores does address Stefanski there (not that he dissipates the mystery).

BallinD wrote:Time Ia Now For Pistons Article

@Sparma: Vince Ellis has stepped his game up with a nice feature on Casey and the hiring process.  It definitely answers a few questions about the organization.  Tellem, Stefanski, Casey are clarified a bit, but to me Gores remains the mystery man.

Why he chose oldster Stefanski, is a mystery.  Why he is soooo slow, is a mystery.  What he wants to see in a basketball product is a mystery.  And why he has not expressed interest in Piston Legends is a mystery.

From the article, it appears he may begin to view Casey as a partner, and from what I have heard already, he has a better and more flexible basketball mind than SVG.  Time will tell.

Casey keeps talking about health, and for SJ, RJ and Blake, that is crucial.  Maybe Casey can convince Gores to spend some money there for a trainer in the (Arnie Kander) department of training and injury prevention (recuperation) why cant we become world class in that area like the Dubs.  

Maybe SJ just needs health and a coach who believes in him and can coach to his strengths.

Also, why can't Pistons explore buying a first round pick like the Dubs did last year and got Jordan Bell, one of the best college defnenders, who as a rookie, started in the finals due to injury to Iguadala.  Come on Pistons...try to win, will ya!

Sparma wrote:Ellis: "Ed Stefanski could have senior adviser title removed and is named GM/POBO." (with Malik Rose and Brent Berry still as strong candidates for Assistant GM.

Well, well.  The process's been a bit dubious, but as with Casey I'm strongly inclined to judge performance by results.

Pinning things down more/ revising a bit from an earlier post (beginning next year and into the foreseeable future):

39 or fewer wins: Trouble, except that a disastrous injury situation buys you time.

40-45 wins, maybe a 1st round win or at least close: Maybe a light pat on the back: you helped the team improve beyond last year's record [but not beyond SVG with a healthy Reggie J]  so you deserve some credit.  But you haven't guided the team beyond where I expected it to be next year anyway.  I'm skeptical that this could count as genuine success for the new regime, certainly not beyond this year.

46-55 wins & playoff success beyond the 1st round: Good job, especially as we move  into the 50s.  You took the team beyond my present expectations.

Beyond 55 wins & getting to the conference championship, maybe even to the Finals in a flukish run: Excellent.  You've exceeded where I thought the team could go.

Regularly in or near the NBA Finals or a Championship: Incredible job, you're magicians.  

I understand that you could set the standards differently, but that's where I'm at.  In Stefanski's case, I know so little about him that judging (at once) by results seems like the only way to go.
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Ballin

Post  Oracle on Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:04 pm

While Gores is a mystery, more importantly, he's a big part of the problem!

1. He tells the world that he'll go over the CAP to sign KCP... Wow, I like KCP, and I wouldn't go over the CAP to sign him. More importantly, that set in motion his agent getting a big head, and any reasonable amount short of that was hard for KCP's side to swallow. Gores forced that situation for no apparent reason, it was stupid and bad business for a supposed business man.

2. Gores has regularly let his personal relationship with Drummond color how Drummond should be handled. It became painfully clear how much they talk when Drummond said he knows he isn't going anywhere now that SVG has been canned... you don't run a team that way unless the dude you're talking about is a super star!

3. His invisible hand was ALL over the Blake Griffin trade! Yeah SVG went along, he probably shouldn't because the results are the same, he got canned.

4. Even prior to all of this, he made Joe make silly trades in an all out effort to get into the playoffs, moves that cost us long term, like Knight and Middleton for Jennings. I don't know if he had anything to do with Moose walking, but who knows. 

The one thing that was consistent with this management team was the inability to cut deals with players to get something back instead of letting them walk.

I went on and on about this, but the reality of this behavior is hat it exposes how they can't plan well enough to solve problems that are solved routinely in the NBA every year without this happening!

The bottom line is that this management team stinks from the head(Gores), as all bad management teams do!
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Mo Better

Post  BallinD on Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:15 pm

Time Ia Now For Pistons Article

@Sparma: Vince Ellis has stepped his game up with a nice feature on Casey and the hiring process.  It definitely answers a few questions about the organization.  Tellem, Stefanski, Casey are clarified a bit, but to me Gores remains the mystery man.

Why he chose oldster Stefanski, is a mystery.  Why he is soooo slow, is a mystery.  What he wants to see in a basketball product is a mystery.  And why he has not expressed interest in Piston Legends is a mystery.

From the article, it appears he may begin to view Casey as a partner, and from what I have heard already, he has a better and more flexible basketball mind than SVG.  Time will tell.

Casey keeps talking about health, and for SJ, RJ and Blake, that is crucial.  Maybe Casey can convince Gores to spend some money there for a trainer in the (Arnie Kander) department of training and injury prevention (recuperation) why cant we become world class in that area like the Dubs.

Maybe SJ just needs health and a coach who believes in him and can coach to his strengths.

Also, why can't Pistons explore buying a first round pick like the Dubs did last year and got Jordan Bell, one of the best college defnenders, who as a rookie, started in the finals due to injury to Iguadala.  Come on Pistons...try to win, will ya!

Sparma wrote:Ellis: "Ed Stefanski could have senior adviser title removed and is named GM/POBO." (with Malik Rose and Brent Berry still as strong candidates for Assistant GM.

Well, well.  The process's been a bit dubious, but as with Casey I'm strongly inclined to judge performance by results.

Pinning things down more/ revising a bit from an earlier post (beginning next year and into the foreseeable future):

39 or fewer wins: Trouble, except that a disastrous injury situation buys you time.

40-45 wins, maybe a 1st round win or at least close: Maybe a light pat on the back: you helped the team improve beyond last year's record [but not beyond SVG with a healthy Reggie J]  so you deserve some credit.  But you haven't guided the team beyond where I expected it to be next year anyway.  I'm skeptical that this could count as genuine success for the new regime, certainly not beyond this year.

46-55 wins & playoff success beyond the 1st round: Good job, especially as we move  into the 50s.  You took the team beyond my present expectations.

Beyond 55 wins & getting to the conference championship, maybe even to the Finals in a flukish run: Excellent.  You've exceeded where I thought the team could go.

Regularly in or near the NBA Finals or a Championship: Incredible job, you're magicians.  

I understand that you could set the standards differently, but that's where I'm at.  In Stefanski's case, I know so little about him that judging (at once) by results seems like the only way to go.
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