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Oh My Again!!!!

Post  WTF on Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:32 pm

Why is this even news?  Like I said something is seriously wrong with todays fans that BG Child Support issue is news.  It's no ones damn business first of all yet the NBA allow the media to report on this.  Enough may never be enough SMH again  facepalm
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Oh My!!!!

Post  WTF on Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:28 pm

If Casey allows AD to start jacking up 3-pointers when he hasn't yet to develop a decent mid range game then he's already a turd of a coach.  This idea could only be acceptable if AD had an already dominate post game and mid-range shoot and he doesn't.   SMH  facepalm
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With our Pistons projected by experts to end up with a break even or losing record, this new coach will be tested by our two team Captains AD and RJ as to their seriousness in creating a winning team

Post  cool breeze on Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:12 pm

My prediction is that one of the two Tom Gores appointed captains Andre Drummond and Reggie Jackson will be gone before the next trade deadline. How is it possible to transform stat driven players into team first type players in the NBA? Once a stat driven contract focused player gets the blessing of the owner, I do not think any coach can change them. Point one relating to Andre Drummond is what he is bragging about over the summer. Instead of providing his team with a strong smart defensive stopper in the paint and amazing defensive rebounder, our All Star is looking to pad his stats by promising to shoot 3s next season. Now he can stand outside the 3 point line more so he will not be able to get his usual number of offensive rebounds. Offensive rebounding is where AD picks up those big stats in the rebounding category. Now AD will show off his amazing 6-8 foot baseline hook shot and then trot out to Charlie V's old spot beyond the 3 point line. Maybe he can watch old films of Charlie walking up the court in transition getting his feet set beyond the 3 point line with his hands up ready for the pass.

Reggie Jackson will have a tantrum in training camp if Casey decides to run plays using Blake as point forward. Maybe Blake will go to the coach and say he doesn't want to ruffle any feathers so might beg Casey to allow Reggie to run the team in the half court offense. After all Blake has a massive guaranteed contract that doesn't say anything about him stepping up to become a real team leader and knock out both AD and RJ from the Co-Captain positions as designated by Tom Gores. Maybe Tom will have a meeting after the first practice and lay down the law as to who his Captains will be again. Casey can then collect his pay check and play the politically correct game like SVG did. Don't confront AD and RJ. Let them play their own individual games.

Just how much power does the head coach really have in this Piston organization? Will Casey be able to actually coach the team? Or like SVG's stint, will the highest paid players be allowed to do their own thing which will have nothing to do with finding a way to win basketball games. Casey has a sweet contract. He can just play along like SVG did and collect the money. Or he can create specific roles for each player on the team and if they deviate from their assigned roles, send them to the end of the bench regardless of how much money they are making. Both AD and RJ are part time defenders. Casey isn't used to players like that. He will see the periodic slacking where the feet are planted as if in cement while opposing players drive around them after they reach with the arms. Dead give away of a player who could give a crap about winning games are the "Reachers". My old coach used to ridicule "Reachers" in practice and at timeouts during games. I am sure both RJ and AD have had many coaches beg them to get in good enough physical condition to end the "reaching". Watch for this bad habit with our two star players this coming season. If you attend the games, yell at them and embarrass them when they do it. If you do that it is a sign that you just don't really give a crap about being on a winning team. Over the last two years it has been clear to me that AD is very content to be on a losing team as long as he gets picked for the All Star game. As RJ's contract will be impossible to move, perhaps even Tom Gores will be ready to throw in the towel and get at least a high draft pick for AD in a trade before the deadline. I really don't believe there is a high demand for either player right now by other NBA teams especially when they evaluated their impact on the Pistons and their individual contracts. Go ahead and shoot that long ball AD. Have fun who cares. It doesn't matter that AD can't effectively shoot a 4 foot jump shot. I am sure Casey will be very happy to see AD launch that new 3 pointer in crunch time.

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Too Funny

Post  WTF on Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:50 am

Sparma wrote:I'm guessing he's wrong about the .4, at least, but there you have it.

I can't access Kevin Pelton's ESPN story directly, but according to DBB, he projected 39 wins for us last year, which would have been right on the button.

That does come in as a #8 playoff slot for the coming season by Pelton's estimates.

For what it's worth, I'd see Vince Ellis's earlier talk of 44-45 wins as a more reasonable expectation.

So did I and I'm not a stats guru imagine that  facepalm
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ESPN's "stats guru" projection: 39.4 wins

Post  Sparma on Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:58 am

I'm guessing he's wrong about the .4, at least, but there you have it.

I can't access Kevin Pelton's ESPN story directly, but according to DBB, he projected 39 wins for us last year, which would have been right on the button.

That does come in as a #8 playoff slot for the coming season by Pelton's estimates.

For what it's worth, I'd see Vince Ellis's earlier talk of 44-45 wins as a more reasonable expectation.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:58 pm

Murph wrote:Don, I'm not sure about Buycks.  I liked his story, and his hustle, but I didn't really like his game.  His defense was non-existent, and he tended to be another ball dominant PG.  He was like a worse version of Ish Smith.

I really liked the way Bruce Brown played in summer league.  I'm probably kidding myself, but the guy could do it all...play defense, make plays, score, rebound, pass.  I know it was only summer league, but he looked like a poor man's Russell Westbrook...a Russell Westbrook who actually passed the ball.

Khyri Thomas was defensive player of the year in his conference wasn't he? Thought Thomas was a combo guard who might fight for time at point guard too. I see he is listed as a 2. Can't find where he played in the Summer League competition. Assume he was injured but can find nothing as to his current health status.

Hope you are right about Brown Murph. Saw him play one time in summer league. Strong body, quick and smart too. He did give up the ball to the open teammates and played defense strong in the time I saw him play. I will pull for anyone who plays the right way with maximum effort. Maybe that is what this management team was looking for more than anything else. Playing time for both players might depend on the strategy Casey selects with the 2nd unit. Will they renew the up tempo style that Ish Smith brings while allowing opponents to score at will or will Casey decide he wants to play slower more deliberate on offense while kicking ass and taking names on the defensive end? Lower point guard turnovers might be on Casey's list as a high priority.

I hope to see Griffin at point forward organizing the offense with better floor spacing with RJ shooting the lights out and driving off the wings and baseline. But can he focus knowing he will have to pay $258K/M in child support? Anything is possible in the California court system these days. Maybe Blake will be placed in a mental institution unable to cope with life now. If not then I hope BG will just tune out everything and lead the Pistons with his basketball IQ and talent. But wherever RJ plays this coming season he must show that he can defend someone of starting caliber or he will have to adjust to coming off the bench and compete with Brown, Thomas and Smith for playing time. I think Reggie has fallen that far based on his last two seasons where injuries and cardio issues held him back. Casey has to be ready for anything relating to making whatever adjustments he needs to make based on player health and abilities. Good coaching staff with a smart head coach can do what SVG found impossible.

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Buycks

Post  Murph on Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:54 am

Don, I'm not sure about Buycks. I liked his story, and his hustle, but I didn't really like his game. His defense was non-existent, and he tended to be another ball dominant PG. He was like a worse version of Ish Smith.

I really liked the way Bruce Brown played in summer league. I'm probably kidding myself, but the guy could do it all...play defense, make plays, score, rebound, pass. I know it was only summer league, but he looked like a poor man's Russell Westbrook...a Russell Westbrook who actually passed the ball.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:32 pm

Murph wrote:
cool breeze wrote:
Murph I think the main reason why SVG played Leuer at center was the fact that he had difficulty defending quick or bigger power forwards. SVG had to know he made a huge mistake signing leuer before doing his homework ( Leuer played horribly for Phoenix and was not part of their future plans at any price) after Leuer went on a long streak of being unable to hit the 3 point shot. So what could he do but try Leuer at back up center? How could SVG sit Leuer on the bench like the Suns coach did the previous season? Leuer did not sit on the bench for Phoenix.  Leuer played 19 minutes a game for Phoenix 3 years ago, which is exactly what we need out of him this year.  Also, Leuer actually started 27 games for Phoenix, which we hopefully wont need him to do this season, if Griffin stays healthy, which is a must.I am talking about two seasons ago when Leuer was perfectly healthy not last season. What SVG was criminal to me because he kept better more effective players on the bench only because of Leuer's big contract.    After Leuer got hurt, SVG played Eric Moreland extensively at reserve center. Then in the last game of the season against Orlando, SVG tried Leuer at both center and power forward and he got his butt kicked at both positions. Who can forget Arron Gordon making jump shots over Leuer and also beating him off the dribble all night long? Don, you make this mistake all the time.  If you don't like a player, you pick the worst game of the season, or the worst play of the season, and then you harp on that as proof that a player is lousy.  Just because Leuer was beaten badly by Aaron Gordon in one game, doesn't make Leuer a bust.  Another example that you harp on is when Whiteside beat Drummond for an offensive rebound.  Just because Whiteside, who is a great rebounder himself, beat Drummond on one play, doesn't mean Drummond is a bad rebounder or can't box out.  It was one play!SVG stood for no accountability for high contract players. Maybe that is the way it is in the NBA but for sure many old Piston fans wanted SVG fired for that bad habit.  I agree with you here.  GM's have a tendency to sign players to bad contracts, and then the coaches play the players to try to justify the bad contracts.  In this case, the GM and coach was the same person.  But the practice is absurd. He was not a coach. SVG was a politically correct man who sucked up to all Piston players who made a lot of money. He yelled at the guys on the bench who were waiting their turn that never came with him as head coach. I thought SVG would be great when he was hired but soon realized he was a big part of the problem.  I never thought SVG would be great.  I thought he was a terrible hire from day one, because of the way he ruined Orlando.  That was another issue I got right. Will the time ever come when a NBA head coach will do the right thing when their highest paid players are clearly slacking with their effort? We fans are the fools if we bother to watch this nonsense unless we just like going to the games to socialize with pretty women. I have a friend who does that.

I stand corrected Murph relating to playing time Leuer had at Phoenix before SVG signed him to that bogus contract. My friend who has season tickets for Suns games went on a rant a few weeks ago about How he hated the way Leuer played and his thoughts were that Leuer was the odd man out in his contract year with the Suns. I will give him credit for how he started playing early in his first season with Detroit. He did hit his share of 3 pointers but as the season wore on he faded like many of his teammates. My question still is why Leuer and how did they come to that crazy number relating to his $10/mil contract and the amount of years? Based on his overall play with the Suns, Leuer should have commanded perhaps a $3Mil contract over two years. Maybe it is all guess work on the part of a lot of GMs but this signing to me showed how incompetent both SVG and Mr. B. were at the time.

At any rate thanks for your comments. What do you think about our two 2nd round draft picks? Based on their summer league play, how can anyone say they are better players than Buycks? Buycks for sure is a better offensive player. I like the way both rookies play on the defensive end though. At least they will cause some headaches for RJ and IS in training camp. Maybe this coach just wanted to add toughness to the roster. Both are hard nosed players who will fight for playing time. Still I believe there were better players available who were not drafted. Will give the new front office a break on this last draft but hope for better results next summer. Big things might happen before the trade deadline if things play out the same way as last season. Casey is going to figure out who he wants to coach pretty quickly and my best guess is that the front office will listen to what he says. It is a good thing that the Pistons do not have all their eggs in one basket like they did with SVG making all of the decisions on the future of our Pistons.

One final thought before training camp begins. BG has to be in great shape and prepared to become the Pistons team leader. The offense has to flow through him and he has to set the tone in the paint on defense. That is going to be a big job but I think he knows what he needs to do if he wants to play on a team that has potential to make the playoffs. If BG directs the offense and RJ can play off the ball and score the Pistons can have an entirely different look that will cause opposing players to work harder on defense then they did when RJ and IS were just pounding the ball trying to create offense. At least I will enjoy watching the team more if this happens and the Pistons finally create an identity opposite of what they have had in the recent past.

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Christmas Comes Early

Post  Murph on Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:51 am

Congrats to Johnny Hamilton for signing a partially guaranteed contract.  Hopefully, he plays well in Grand Rapids, signs a two way contract, and sticks around until next season to become the 2nd or 3rd string center for the Pistons.


The other guy the Pistons picked-up that has potential is Keenan Evans, an undrafted, 4 year, 6'3 PG out of Texas Tech.  He signed a two way contract, but with the log jam the Pistons have at the guard positions, he probably will not see any minutes in the NBA this season.

If he plays well in the G-League, I wouldn't mind seeing Evans make the roster next year as the Pistons 3rd string PG, behind RJ and Bruce Brown, once Calderon and Ish Smith move on.


I love these undrafted, unappreciated players that sign cheap contracts and hustle their asses off. Eric Moreland was one of those.
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Seriously Oracle

Post  WTF on Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:19 am

Oracle wrote:So every team should judge their players this way? YES

This line of thinking leaves out allowing teams to grow, learn and get better. This line of thinking would have broken up the Bad Boys, dumped Zeke for passing the ball to Bird and losing, yet again! This line of thinking wouldn't have applied

You learn from mistakes, the main criteria is "Are we getting better, and at a good enough rate to compete". NO

The goal is to be able to compete for a championship, once there, you want to win! Correct and where are we in relation to road map?
WTF wrote:Everyone is still skating and skirting around the answer to my question.  Maybe I needed to ask it a little different or in a series of questions. So let me try it again this way. Really they're simple yes or no questions with the exception of question #1 in which I hope the answer for everyone is to win a freaking title oppose to answering Gore wants to make a profit selling BS to fans. 

1. Why are they being paid million? 

2. What service should be expected ie.  Winning Titles or struggling for an 8th seed?

3. Are we getting the best bang for the dollar?  

4. Does the answer to question #3 make you happy.

I just can't get a straight answer can I ?  facepalm 

Rest assure I could go into full detail why bringing up Zeke and the Bad Boys has nothing to do with what I asked in fact why even bring them up.  That's a different place and time, I'm talking about the right now with this group of players in this current NBA environment I made no mention of how this needed to be applied Zeke.  

The questions I asked would've never been required with either Championship Team hell we wouldn't have asked these questions about the Teal Team but they certainly apply to this current group.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:39 am

cool breeze wrote:
Murph I think the main reason why SVG played Leuer at center was the fact that he had difficulty defending quick or bigger power forwards. SVG had to know he made a huge mistake signing leuer before doing his homework ( Leuer played horribly for Phoenix and was not part of their future plans at any price) after Leuer went on a long streak of being unable to hit the 3 point shot. So what could he do but try Leuer at back up center? How could SVG sit Leuer on the bench like the Suns coach did the previous season? Leuer did not sit on the bench for Phoenix.  Leuer played 19 minutes a game for Phoenix 3 years ago, which is exactly what we need out of him this year.  Also, Leuer actually started 27 games for Phoenix, which we hopefully wont need him to do this season, if Griffin stays healthy, which is a must.I am talking about two seasons ago when Leuer was perfectly healthy not last season. What SVG was criminal to me because he kept better more effective players on the bench only because of Leuer's big contract.    After Leuer got hurt, SVG played Eric Moreland extensively at reserve center. Then in the last game of the season against Orlando, SVG tried Leuer at both center and power forward and he got his butt kicked at both positions. Who can forget Arron Gordon making jump shots over Leuer and also beating him off the dribble all night long? Don, you make this mistake all the time.  If you don't like a player, you pick the worst game of the season, or the worst play of the season, and then you harp on that as proof that a player is lousy.  Just because Leuer was beaten badly by Aaron Gordon in one game, doesn't make Leuer a bust.  Another example that you harp on is when Whiteside beat Drummond for an offensive rebound.  Just because Whiteside, who is a great rebounder himself, beat Drummond on one play, doesn't mean Drummond is a bad rebounder or can't box out.  It was one play!SVG stood for no accountability for high contract players. Maybe that is the way it is in the NBA but for sure many old Piston fans wanted SVG fired for that bad habit.  I agree with you here.  GM's have a tendency to sign players to bad contracts, and then the coaches play the players to try to justify the bad contracts.  In this case, the GM and coach was the same person.  But the practice is absurd. He was not a coach. SVG was a politically correct man who sucked up to all Piston players who made a lot of money. He yelled at the guys on the bench who were waiting their turn that never came with him as head coach. I thought SVG would be great when he was hired but soon realized he was a big part of the problem.  I never thought SVG would be great.  I thought he was a terrible hire from day one, because of the way he ruined Orlando.  That was another issue I got right. Will the time ever come when a NBA head coach will do the right thing when their highest paid players are clearly slacking with their effort? We fans are the fools if we bother to watch this nonsense unless we just like going to the games to socialize with pretty women. I have a friend who does that.
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Wow

Post  Oracle on Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:22 pm

So every team should judge their players this way?

This line of thinking leaves out allowing teams to grow, learn and get better. This line of thinking would have broken up the Bad Boys, dumped Zeke for passing the ball to Bird and losing, yet again!

You learn from mistakes, the main criteria is "Are we getting better, and at a good enough rate to compete".

The goal is to be able to compete for a championship, once there, you want to win!
WTF wrote:Everyone is still skating and skirting around the answer to my question.  Maybe I needed to ask it a little different or in a series of questions. So let me try it again this way. Really they're simple yes or no questions with the exception of question #1 in which I hope the answer for everyone is to win a freaking title oppose to answering Gore wants to make a profit selling BS to fans. 

1. Why are they being paid million? 

2. What service should be expected ie.  Winning Titles or struggling for an 8th seed?

3. Are we getting the best bang for the dollar?  

4. Does the answer to question #3 make you happy.
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So many things incorrect, so little time...

Post  Oracle on Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:17 pm

cool breeze wrote:Bringing up the money factor is important when speaking of AD and RJ. Some fans keep saying Johnson was a lottery pick and somehow is being paid way too much(Don, that's so far from the truth I can't believe you had the nerve to post it! Show me ONE, not two or three, but any single poster on this board that has even brought up Stanley's salary, let alone called it high!). Where was he drafted? Was he in the top 3 or 5? When was the last time the Pistons have really had a lottery pick meaning they were the top players in the country at draft time. If you are picked at 7 or 8 GMs have questions about their abilities so they don't pick them if they are selecting in the top 5. But leave that aside, Johnson is not a highly paid player at all. Most likely he will be playing elsewhere after this season if he isn't traded because he is tired of playing with AD and RJ who are slackers on defense. Free agents who are worth their salt do not want to play with AD or RJ for that same reason. Also, all good players consider the basketball IQ of the players on all teams before they sign a new contract.

The new arena is half empty on most nights is because the Pistons do not win enough meaningful games(Check your facts, the Pistons attendance was the highest since the decline of the 2004 team.). The team leaders for the past few years have been RJ and AD. Former Piston fans connect those two players as being the cause of the Pistons recent downfall. Maybe that isn't true at all but that is what everyone I talk to who used to be huge Piston fans who live in Michigan say to me. They don't really enjoy watching or pulling for AD and RJ because they don't respect them as real team orientated winning caliber players. Everyone with the exception of forum writers have come to the conclusion that both players are only interested in getting their fat pay checks and promoting their individual stats while looking to the future contract season. We have all seen other teams come to the Palace in t he old days with players like AD and RJ. We loved watching our smart dedicated team orientated players beat them easily knowing that both give half an effort on defense or forget the basic fundamentals of the game. I just do not enjoy watching either AD or RJ play basketball(You also don't like being straight about these players either. You could make an argument that Andre is over paid, but Reggie? You oddly call FACTS statistics, but look up what guards make in this league before making these wild accusations). It is insulting to everything I respect about the game. There are moments where I see both of them digging down and playing hard at something other than scoring but the moments are too few for me to actually pull for them to be successful players.

It actually amazes me when I read posts from fans who provide stats trying to convince skeptical fans that the Pistons really have the right players who can win something meaningful(Don, FACTS are provided, not to convince anyone of anything except those with weak minds who can't read them without thinking they're a conspiracy to do something or another, that isn't you is it?). I wish both AD and RJ well though because both are good men off the court. That counts too. It is just when they play basketball that I lose respect especially when I see grown men who call themselves professional basketball players reaching instead of moving their feet allowing their assigned man to get a layup as they anticipate both will start reaching due to their long history of being reachers. You sit on the bench as a college player when you show the coach that you are not moving your feet on defense. But then AD is working on his 3 point shot. If he makes a few of them some fans will really get excited. It is the small things great players do that makes the difference between winning and losing. It is time for the Pistons to have a fire sale and start over by getting at least 2 top 5 picks in the coming drafts. Instead this owner loves to give up his first round draft picks. Who does that except Tom Gores?
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Bottomline Is......

Post  WTF on Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:18 pm

Everyone is still skating and skirting around the answer to my question.  Maybe I needed to ask it a little different or in a series of questions. So let me try it again this way. Really they're simple yes or no questions with the exception of question #1 in which I hope the answer for everyone is to win a freaking title oppose to answering Gore wants to make a profit selling BS to fans. 

1. Why are they being paid million? 

2. What service should be expected ie.  Winning Titles or struggling for an 8th seed?

3. Are we getting the best bang for the dollar?  

4. Does the answer to question #3 make you happy.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:47 pm

Murph wrote:Again, I am not a big Jon Leuer fan, and hate to defend him.  But part of the problem last year was that for some reason SVG was playing Leuer out of position at the stretch 5.  Leuer is by no stretch of the imagination a center.  He's 6'10 and 225, and is not overly physical, active or athletic.  

So when Leuer got hurt, Eric Moreland came in and thoroughly out-played Leuer at the reserve center spot, which is understandable.  After all, Moreland is a center; Leuer is not.  There is only one position on the basketball court that Leuer can play, and that's PF.  Why SVG thought he could play center is beyond me.  That was just one more complete and total mental meltdown on SVG's part.

So again, my purpose here is not to hype Leuer.  He is an over-paid, mediocre PF.  However, if he is played at the PF position, and not as a center, he is at least mediocre and not terrible.

And if we have any hope of winning 50 or more games and making it to the playoffs this season, Leuer is going to have to play a lot of serviceable minutes.  Because of his injury history, I am hoping Casey limits BG's minutes to about 28-30 minutes a game in an effort to keep him healthy.  That means Leuer is going to have to stay healthy and play 18-20 minutes a game off the bench at PF, because Henry Ellenson is a bust.

We need Leuer to play 20 mpg off the bench at PF, the way he played for the Pistons two years ago.

Murph I think the main reason why SVG played Leuer at center was the fact that he had difficulty defending quick or bigger power forwards. SVG had to know he made a huge mistake signing leuer before doing his homework ( Leuer played horribly for Phoenix and was not part of their future plans at any price) after Leuer went on a long streak of being unable to hit the 3 point shot. So what could he do but try Leuer at back up center? How could SVG sit Leuer on the bench like the Suns coach did the previous season? I am talking about two seasons ago when Leuer was perfectly healthy not last season. What SVG was criminal to me because he kept better more effective players on the bench only because of Leuer's big contract. Then in the last game of the season against Orlando, SVG tried Leuer at both center and power forward and he got his butt kicked at both positions. Who can forget Arron Gordon making jump shots over Leuer and also beating him off the dribble all night long? SVG stood for no accountability for high contract players. Maybe that is the way it is in the NBA but for sure many old Piston fans wanted SVG fired for that bad habit. He was not a coach. SVG was a politically correct man who sucked up to all Piston players who made a lot of money. He yelled at the guys on the bench who were waiting their turn that never came with him as head coach. I thought SVG would be great when he was hired but soon realized he was a big part of the problem. Will the time ever come when a NBA head coach will do the right thing when their highest paid players are clearly slacking with their effort? We fans are the fools if we bother to watch this nonsense unless we just like going to the games to socialize with pretty women. I have a friend who does that.

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The reason why some Piston fans who I don't write on this forum has nothing to do with the amount of money they make as to why they wish they were on another team

Post  cool breeze on Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:27 pm

Bringing up the money factor is important when speaking of AD and RJ. Some fans keep saying Johnson was a lottery pick and somehow is being paid way too much. Where was he drafted? Was he in the top 3 or 5? When was the last time the Pistons have really had a lottery pick meaning they were the top players in the country at draft time. If you are picked at 7 or 8 GMs have questions about their abilities so they don't pick them if they are selecting in the top 5. But leave that aside, Johnson is not a highly paid player at all. Most likely he will be playing elsewhere after this season if he isn't traded because he is tired of playing with AD and RJ who are slackers on defense. Free agents who are worth their salt do not want to play with AD or RJ for that same reason. Also, all good players consider the basketball IQ of the players on all teams before they sign a new contract.

The new arena is half empty on most nights is because the Pistons do not win enough meaningful games. The team leaders for the past few years have been RJ and AD. Former Piston fans connect those two players as being the cause of the Pistons recent downfall. Maybe that isn't true at all but that is what everyone I talk to who used to be huge Piston fans who live in Michigan say to me. They don't really enjoy watching or pulling for AD and RJ because they don't respect them as real team orientated winning caliber players. Everyone with the exception of forum writers have come to the conclusion that both players are only interested in getting their fat pay checks and promoting their individual stats while looking to the future contract season. We have all seen other teams come to the Palace in t he old days with players like AD and RJ. We loved watching our smart dedicated team orientated players beat them easily knowing that both give half an effort on defense or forget the basic fundamentals of the game. I just do not enjoy watching either AD or RJ play basketball. It is insulting to everything I respect about the game. There are moments where I see both of them digging down and playing hard at something other than scoring but the moments are too few for me to actually pull for them to be successful players.

It actually amazes me when I read posts from fans who provide stats trying to convince skeptical fans that the Pistons really have the right players who can win something meaningful. I wish both AD and RJ well though because both are good men off the court. That counts too. It is just when they play basketball that I lose respect especially when I see grown men who call themselves professional basketball players reaching instead of moving their feet allowing their assigned man to get a layup as they anticipate both will start reaching due to their long history of being reachers. You sit on the bench as a college player when you show the coach that you are not moving your feet on defense. But then AD is working on his 3 point shot. If he makes a few of them some fans will really get excited. It is the small things great players do that makes the difference between winning and losing. It is time for the Pistons to have a fire sale and start over by getting at least 2 top 5 picks in the coming drafts. Instead this owner loves to give up his first round draft picks. Who does that except Tom Gores?

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Sorry For The Abuse

Post  WTF on Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:03 am

Oracle wrote:
Wise wrote:I'll ask it one more time Why are we paying BG, AD and RJ all this $$$ if the expectations are as low as they are?
The simple answer is that somebody thought they were either worth it now, or would be in the future. BTW, RJ doesn't make jack crap, I wish people would stop using that phony argument.

However, EVERYTHING is relative. Our payroll is high, not only because of these guys, but the MASSIVE amount we're paying scrubs to play, or in the case of Josh Smith, not to play.

So how overpaid are these guys? Blake certainly is up there, but Andre is tied for #20 on the list. Unfortunately, he's not as good as the guys he's tied with(Beal, Whiteside & Davis), IMO, but none of them meet your standards anyway, so there's that.
https://www.businessinsider.com/nba-highest-paid-players-2017-10#t20-bradley-beal-238-million-7 wrote:DeMar DeRozan — $27.7 million. ...
James Harden — $28.3 million. ...
Kyle Lowry — $28.7 million. ...
Blake Griffin — $29.5 million. ...
Gordon Hayward — $29.7 million. ...
Paul Millsap — $30.8 million. ...
LeBron James — $33.3 million. ...
Stephen Curry — $34.7 million
All I'm saying is that just because you happened to wake up after nearly 10 years of sleeping and decide you need to change the way you view the Pistons, is no reason to call us out for having a different view... you're abusing us  lol 

We're starting the MeThree movement on your arse!

That would be the simple answers to the question but I think everyone knows what I'm really asking.  Are they paying these salaries in hopes of a title in return?   I'm not really concern with fair market value because I'm of the belief that mostly all of them are over paid but if they were paid only a dollar for their services to go win a championship they're not living up to it.   

I can't imagine being an owner paying these contracts without having expectation of winning a championship that's really is the gest of my feeling on expectations in my post and yes I think it should be the expectations of everyone.  Since when did we start applauding failure and being okay with second place so easily.
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Salaries

Post  Murph on Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:49 am

Right.  So if you look at all those players on that list of the 25 top paid players in the NBA, Drummond is about right where he should be.  In fact, by my calculations, Drummond is slightly underpaid.  Of the 25 players on the list, I have Drummond ahead of 10 of them.  I think Drummond is more valuable than Griffin, Carmelo, Wiggins, Holiday, Porter, Whiteside, Howard (at this point in his career), Parsons, Barnes and Reddick.  

Griffin's salary is the real issue.  The Griffin trade was Van Gundy's last gasp at trying to salvage his career in Detroit, and it's going to hamstring us for years.

And then, as Oracle pointed out, we have several over-paid journeymen...Leuer, Galloway and Smith, which represent a combined $22 million of underperforming assets each year.

SVG sure did a number on our salary structure.  Geesh.


Oracle wrote:
Wise wrote:I'll ask it one more time Why are we paying BG, AD and RJ all this $$$ if the expectations are as low as they are?
The simple answer is that somebody thought they were either worth it now, or would be in the future. BTW, RJ doesn't make jack crap, I wish people would stop using that phony argument.

However, EVERYTHING is relative. Our payroll is high, not only because of these guys, but the MASSIVE amount we're paying scrubs to play, or in the case of Josh Smith, not to play.

So how overpaid are these guys? Blake certainly is up there, but Andre is tied for #20 on the list. Unfortunately, he's not as good as the guys he's tied with(Beal, Whiteside & Davis), IMO, but none of them meet your standards anyway, so there's that.
https://www.businessinsider.com/nba-highest-paid-players-2017-10#t20-bradley-beal-238-million-7 wrote:DeMar DeRozan — $27.7 million. ...
James Harden — $28.3 million. ...
Kyle Lowry — $28.7 million. ...
Blake Griffin — $29.5 million. ...
Gordon Hayward — $29.7 million. ...
Paul Millsap — $30.8 million. ...
LeBron James — $33.3 million. ...
Stephen Curry — $34.7 million
All I'm saying is that just because you happened to wake up after nearly 10 years of sleeping and decide you need to change the way you view the Pistons, is no reason to call us out for having a different view... you're abusing us  lol 

We're starting the MeThree movement on your arse!
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Your question is way too easy to answer...

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:14 pm

Wise wrote:I'll ask it one more time Why are we paying BG, AD and RJ all this $$$ if the expectations are as low as they are?
The simple answer is that somebody thought they were either worth it now, or would be in the future. BTW, RJ doesn't make jack crap, I wish people would stop using that phony argument.

However, EVERYTHING is relative. Our payroll is high, not only because of these guys, but the MASSIVE amount we're paying scrubs to play, or in the case of Josh Smith, not to play.

So how overpaid are these guys? Blake certainly is up there, but Andre is tied for #20 on the list. Unfortunately, he's not as good as the guys he's tied with(Beal, Whiteside & Davis), IMO, but none of them meet your standards anyway, so there's that.
https://www.businessinsider.com/nba-highest-paid-players-2017-10#t20-bradley-beal-238-million-7 wrote:DeMar DeRozan — $27.7 million. ...
James Harden — $28.3 million. ...
Kyle Lowry — $28.7 million. ...
Blake Griffin — $29.5 million. ...
Gordon Hayward — $29.7 million. ...
Paul Millsap — $30.8 million. ...
LeBron James — $33.3 million. ...
Stephen Curry — $34.7 million
All I'm saying is that just because you happened to wake up after nearly 10 years of sleeping and decide you need to change the way you view the Pistons, is no reason to call us out for having a different view... you're abusing us  lol 

We're starting the MeThree movement on your arse!
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I Lost My Pistons Religion

Post  WTF on Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:37 pm

Oracle wrote:@Wise: You've come to the conclusion that we should expect a lot from these guys, and that since you're found religion, everybody else should. This is funny, especially from the guy that has consistently had low expectations for this team.

So in that spirit, you should also not be a cynic, and praise them all the time, at least before the season starts, after that all bets are off, lol. If you can't do that, then your expectations are a joke without meaning, because it's not what you really believe.

I would never expect something unrealistic from this team, and that's not saying that they couldn't win 55 games, but high 40's makes a lot more sense considering the facts on the ground, like
1. There is almost no chemistry in the starting unit... yet.
2. They'll ALL(in the starters) be playing in an entirely new system

Realistically, I expect high 40's with them playing like a 55 win team by the time the playoffs get started. That would make me happy!


@DX: Reverse Discrimination? Come on Bro, that doesn't make a bit of sense. Stanley was a lottery pick and Stanley has shown flashes of becoming a star(ok, all in his rookie season, but...). Ellenson has promise, but I have to admit, his summer league performance was about as bad as it gets. Casey will still give him a shot, but this is a hard sell after what we all saw. I'm with Murph on this one, Leuer is 4 times the player Ellenson is right now, twice the offensive player and twice the defensive player, and that's being generous.

So yes, Ellenson is being discriminated against, but it's the proper discrimination, based on performance.

BTW, Leuer isn't a bad player.

No new religion found here I've just decided to follow the road I should have been on since 2009 perhaps longer.   There is a consistent question that seem to exist in almost of all of my post that not a single poster here will touch it seems.   I'll ask it one more time Why are we paying BG, AD and RJ all this $$$ if the expectations are as low as they are?  

What I'm doing is expecting the team get it's money worth.   I don't think anyone can honestly say or think that it's okay to pay Blake 35 Million a season, pay Andre 25 Million and Reggie 18 million a season that it's okay to have so little expectations of them and road paved with preapproved excuse if they don't meet them.   What I'm expecting is for them to go ball out each night like those enormous contract they're each getting.  So when I calculate it all up they owe us nothing less then 55 wins period.  

I could easily predict this team barely wins 40 games but I'm not confusing my predictions with my expectation.  Reggie sucks, AD still 2 years away or perhaps peaked and this is as best it gets,  and Blake is just here getting paid.   Are this what the organization paying for in return? are we all acceptable to what we're getting as fans?  

55 wins that's not just on the players it on the organization as a whole to deliver on that,  so as I see the flaws and concerns that not really my concern  expect it to be corrected and fixed to meet the 55 wins.
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Wise & DX

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:43 pm

@Wise: You've come to the conclusion that we should expect a lot from these guys, and that since you're found religion, everybody else should. This is funny, especially from the guy that has consistently had low expectations for this team.

So in that spirit, you should also not be a cynic, and praise them all the time, at least before the season starts, after that all bets are off, lol. If you can't do that, then your expectations are a joke without meaning, because it's not what you really believe.

I would never expect something unrealistic from this team, and that's not saying that they couldn't win 55 games, but high 40's makes a lot more sense considering the facts on the ground, like
1. There is almost no chemistry in the starting unit... yet.
2. They'll ALL(in the starters) be playing in an entirely new system

Realistically, I expect high 40's with them playing like a 55 win team by the time the playoffs get started. That would make me happy!


@DX: Reverse Discrimination? Come on Bro, that doesn't make a bit of sense. Stanley was a lottery pick and Stanley has shown flashes of becoming a star(ok, all in his rookie season, but...). Ellenson has promise, but I have to admit, his summer league performance was about as bad as it gets. Casey will still give him a shot, but this is a hard sell after what we all saw. I'm with Murph on this one, Leuer is 4 times the player Ellenson is right now, twice the offensive player and twice the defensive player, and that's being generous.

So yes, Ellenson is being discriminated against, but it's the proper discrimination, based on performance.

BTW, Leuer isn't a bad player.
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Leuer

Post  Murph on Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:01 am

Again, I am not a big Jon Leuer fan, and hate to defend him.  But part of the problem last year was that for some reason SVG was playing Leuer out of position at the stretch 5.  Leuer is by no stretch of the imagination a center.  He's 6'10 and 225, and is not overly physical, active or athletic.  

So when Leuer got hurt, Eric Moreland came in and thoroughly out-played Leuer at the reserve center spot, which is understandable.  After all, Moreland is a center; Leuer is not.  There is only one position on the basketball court that Leuer can play, and that's PF.  Why SVG thought he could play center is beyond me. That was just one more complete and total mental meltdown on SVG's part.

So again, my purpose here is not to hype Leuer.  He is an over-paid, mediocre PF.  However, if he is played at the PF position, and not as a center, he is at least mediocre and not terrible.

And if we have any hope of winning 50 or more games and making it to the playoffs this season, Leuer is going to have to play a lot of serviceable minutes.  Because of his injury history, I am hoping Casey limits BG's minutes to about 28-30 minutes a game in an effort to keep him healthy.  That means Leuer is going to have to stay healthy and play 18-20 minutes a game off the bench at PF, because Henry Ellenson is a bust.

We need Leuer to play 20 mpg off the bench at PF, the way he played for the Pistons two years ago.
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Wins

Post  BallinD on Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:21 pm

WTF,
It seems to my untrained eyes that we aren’t close to A 55 win team, just because of RJax and Leuer on the roster.  Can’t see it, hence my lack of positive comments about either one of these fine fellows.  Especially Weggie.  At best, physically he is in physical decline w/the chronic knee and a growing lack of burst and hops, and we know his asthmatic stamina is pure doo doo. Mentally he is selfish and has little desire to defend or consistently make plays for others. He is a below average 3pt shooter and plays quite poorly on SGOB2B games. Without burst nor stamina, nor maybe a team first attitude approach, his skills are unable to compensate.  Gotta move him but probably can’t.  

Leuer to me is a safer bet and that is scary to even contemplate.  He is a middling talent, but not a malcontent nor a chronic fool, just a serviceable guy maybe with confidence issues when he is overmatched.

There are questions about our SF position as well but they pale beside our skunks.

Can a skunk change his stripes?  Can we win 55 w/o a change in our floor leader.

Will Blake be our new floor leader. Can he carry us to 55 Wins? Can we pull off a trade?
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1ST PLACE REQUIREMENT ONLY

Post  WTF on Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:24 pm

Nothing wrong with speaking definitively either they can or can't so why add all the disclaimers and planting seeds for doubt?   If higher expectations are a setup for failure and disappointment then certainly not having high expectation is preparing to expect and accept failure.

Why be on the fence about what this team need to be doing today instead of what you think they could be capable of 2 years down the road.  It's said that not a single player talks about winning a title now.  We have 3 players on 4 and 5 years deal making on average 20 plus millions a season that don't speak of winning titles because they are simply content to play out their contracts with minimum effort.  They can do this because they have fans making excuses for them while they continue to lower the bar in the process.  

I have no desire to be that kind of fan and I will be happy being angry all season and after if 55 wins aren't achieved by season end or look unlikely in the process of the season.    

Someone please tell me again why are we paying BG, AD and RG all this money?   Are we cheering for 2nd place or 1st place?   I won't be making a prediction this season I will be offering up my expectations for the season this year.  So please put me down for 55 wins or better 

You all lower the bar and the team still doesn't meet those tiny expectations  I think it's all of you that should be pissed off every season or at least more angrier than me.

I expect everything to be better from top to bottom with this team PERIOD
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Knee Jerk

Post  BallinD on Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:35 pm

My first impression of Ellenson in summer league was shock at how bad he looked.  I immediately thought this whole 2 yrs of development under SVG was a waste, and second that he was not an NBA player.  He looked like a deer in headlights, frozen into a stiff, herky-jerky flat-footed bricklayer.  His shot was flat off the front of the rim, and every shot seemed rushed even when he was wide open.  His dribble forays disasters exposed a high handle. But I liked the rope they gave him in that laboratory and decided he needed a lot more of that before the flip switches on for Oh Henry. I believe it can and hope Casey et al can fix him.

In a few months we will all have the same debate about “broken Stanley”.  Watching video of him working out with B Jennings and Melo, I saw no evidence of him working on his offensive game, expanded range or for that matter, anything hopeful, and the same for his Drew league clips showe no efforts to work on what he is not good at.  No effort to stretch his game.

I hope this is small sample size.  But I recall that was the same impression Casey conveyed in an interview after he was hired, so I do not doubt my impressions.  Casey said he was working on the wrong stuff. Is Stubborn Stanley (per SVG over the past few years) a thing?  I fear more than a tweak, he’ll need consistent tough love over the course of a season. Can even that work?  He still can’t go to his left, and SVG made that part of Stanley’s previous years progress report.

We need one of these guys to pan out, but I fear that except for Luke, SVG really really sucked at drafting.
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