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Post  Oracle on Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:02 pm

Murph wrote:Do you think your guys Marcus Morris and Arron Baynes will start for the Celtics this year?  And if they don't, should they call for a players only meeting and demand to be a bigger part of the offense?
There's no way on earth they will start for a healthy Celtics team, they're role players on a good team, hell, they both came off the bench here under normal circumstances. They're both very good players though, and yes, I rooted for the Celtics during the playoffs mainly because they both played so much and so well. Baynes looked like he slimmed down a bit to me, which helped his defensive movement.

@Don: Apology accepted.

@Murph: Don't worry or get too frustrated, a lot of people are venting and aren't ready to let go of the pain(SVG) just yet. They'll come around... time heals all wounds  lol
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Quick Question

Post  Murph on Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:35 pm

Do you think your guys Marcus Morris and Arron Baynes will start for the Celtics this year? And if they don't, should they call for a players only meeting and demand to be a bigger part of the offense?
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:07 pm

You all need to root for the Celtics. Marcus Morris and Aaron Baynes are your guys.

And you pretty much despise everything about the Pistons...the owner, the coach, the center, the PG and the draft pick.

Go for it guys. I really can't take reading this stuff anymore.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:04 pm

WTF wrote:
Murph wrote:I am willing to concede that not all players only meeting are a bad idea, if they are constructive and called by the right players. However, THAT players only meeting was a disaster. Baynes was even more of a roll player than Morris. Baynes should not have called it, and Morris should not have let himself get caught up in Baynes' BS.

It was called by the most seasoned players and role player or not Baynes brought knowledge of winning from SA,  and Morris faired well in Phoenix so by default these were the vets on the team. Mind you a team full of players that had no clue about winning and the hard work it takes and no leadership in sight so it's only right that Baynes called and Morris would co-signed it.    

When Josh called out players and they turned on him it was basically the same thing,  Josh was the vet, the most accomplished player who had a stellar career with the Hawks trying to tell Moose, Reggie and AD what it takes to win (hard work) but they're not interested in such a thing.

This team still need a vet that going to take them to the next level were winning actually matters and hard work is required.   Murph it seems you want to shield them from this process and hope they get it all on their own and that's not going to happen.  Even Zeke had to learn it from Magic, Bird and so on not in a team meeting but on the court and off the court,  MJ learned it's taking his lumps,  Magic had vets like Wilks and Kareem to lean on, Bird had to learn they all do.  

AD won't learn **** if he doesn't stop whining like a school girl every time someone tries to tell his ass something for the good.  The only thing that went wrong in the meeting was Reggie and AD not being man enough to hear the truth.  If Gore was a real man he would have been trying to ship Reggie and AD ass out of town not Baynes and Morris.

Great comments WTF. Baynes and Morris won a lot of playing time on a high quality Celtics team this season. Baynes is fundamentally sound and plays hard. Morris really played well in the playoffs and throughout the season last year. Both must have felt like they had dies and gone to heaven after playing with our Piston team leaders AD and RJ who both acted like small children two seasons ago. Have they grown up yet? There is no doubt that Mr. Gores forced SVG to criticize the players who called for the players only meeting. The way the Pistons had been losing would make any self respecting coach beg for a players only meeting. This owner is a huge cause of why we have a losing team in Detroit. He protects the weakest players and makes them team leaders. Neither players has ever played basketball the right way. Imagine what Blake Griffin got himself into with the Gores bogus trade with the Clippers. Being that he is making Labron money and playing with dysfunctional former team leaders, it will up to him to take Mr. Gores off the hook. But in my opinion every fan should be extremely upset with this owner even more than kiss ass SVG who failed to act like a real coach should act after that players only meeting was held. It is significant that both Baynes and Morris were not on this Piston team last season and both played really well on a winning team in Boston. The Pistons keep the losers and give away the winners who hate to lose. Mr. Gores loves the way AD dances in pre game. Will he do it again next year?

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:51 pm

Oracle wrote:I think players only meetings are one of the cornerstones of basketball teams when things are both going good and going bad.

These meetings accomplish things a coach can't always do... make people accountable! The need for these types of meetings are generally much less when the team has a strong leader who automatically makes sure everyone is accountable, but where leadership is weaker or lacking, small groups of players band together to make that happen.

Murph rightly pointed out the Isiah Thomas meeting as a horrible example. That incident took me from a huge supporter to now seeing him as a bit delusional and too into himself to be the player I thought he was. There will always be examples of people abusing something good for evil purposes.

However, these meetings can be quite rough, but they're meant to be, accountability requires hard work and dedication, and some people need to be pushed to be the best they can be, and coaches sometimes need this level of help.

What you can't have is a coach behave like SVG did, he shouldn't take sides unless something is clearly wrong, or player trust in him and each other will suffer. IMO, that's what happened here, SVG initially backed the meeting, but flip flopped like a flounder on the deck, and it basically ruined the season, nobody was the same after that.

@Don: What kind of person are you? You trashed me for no reason, which I initially assumed was a simple mistake on your part. But when Murph informed you that it was his response you had mistaken for me, you addressed the subject again, and never set the record straight... who does that?

Sorry for that Oracle. I owe you an apology for my blunder. Good comments with this post.


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Congratulations

Post  Sparma on Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:35 pm

to Malik Rose. He sounds like a great addition, but of course again time will tell.
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LMAO

Post  WTF on Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:57 am

Murph wrote:I am willing to concede that not all players only meeting are a bad idea, if they are constructive and called by the right players. However, THAT players only meeting was a disaster. Baynes was even more of a roll player than Morris. Baynes should not have called it, and Morris should not have let himself get caught up in Baynes' BS.

It was called by the most seasoned players and role player or not Baynes brought knowledge of winning from SA,  and Morris faired well in Phoenix so by default these were the vets on the team. Mind you a team full of players that had no clue about winning and the hard work it takes and no leadership in sight so it's only right that Baynes called and Morris would co-signed it.    

When Josh called out players and they turned on him it was basically the same thing,  Josh was the vet, the most accomplished player who had a stellar career with the Hawks trying to tell Moose, Reggie and AD what it takes to win (hard work) but they're not interested in such a thing.

This team still need a vet that going to take them to the next level were winning actually matters and hard work is required.   Murph it seems you want to shield them from this process and hope they get it all on their own and that's not going to happen.  Even Zeke had to learn it from Magic, Bird and so on not in a team meeting but on the court and off the court,  MJ learned it's taking his lumps,  Magic had vets like Wilks and Kareem to lean on, Bird had to learn they all do.  

AD won't learn **** if he doesn't stop whining like a school girl every time someone tries to tell his ass something for the good.  The only thing that went wrong in the meeting was Reggie and AD not being man enough to hear the truth.  If Gore was a real man he would have been trying to ship Reggie and AD ass out of town not Baynes and Morris.
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Murph Murph Murph

Post  WTF on Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:40 am

Murph wrote:Screw Marcus Morris and his nasty attitude.  I think you folks are confusing criminal behavior for Pistons DNA.  I don't recall Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman or Bill Laimbeer calling team meetings, attacking teammates or physically assaulting people off the court.

Come on Murph now who's acting like Don here?   Dennis wore dresses, contemplated suicide outside in the Palace parking lot while Ben participated in the Malice At The Palace and his brother threw a chair.  Amazing you have an issue with Morris for defending his mother of all people and BTW Bill wasn't some angle he somehow manage to get black balled from ever getting an NBA gig.  

I liked Morris much in the way I liked all those guys regardless to some of what you mentioned.  What's the difference between Morris and Sheed who had countless run ins with teammates, coaches and ref's?  You loved Sheed but you hate Morris SMH.    

Sadly players like Morris and Josh were the closes thing we had as far as players with a hint of Pistons DNA period certainly not that softy Moose and most definitely no AD.  You love those two as well.


Last edited by WTF on Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:06 am

BallinD wrote:Murph, it was widely reported that Aron Baynes called the "players only" meeting, not Morris.  Jus Sayin.

Vince Ellis Story on Players Only Meeting

"The meeting was the idea of center Aron Baynes, but Marcus Morris did most of the talking."


Well if Aaron Baynes called the meeting, I owe an apology of sorts to Marcus Morris. It's too bad Morris got caught up in all the BS and went along with Baynes. It's no coincidence that they were both shipped to Boston for Avery Bradley's expiring contract.

I am willing to concede that not all players only meeting are a bad idea, if they are constructive and called by the right players. However, THAT players only meeting was a disaster. Baynes was even more of a roll player than Morris. Baynes should not have called it, and Morris should not have let himself get caught up in Baynes' BS.
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Players only meetings...

Post  Oracle on Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:45 am

I think players only meetings are one of the cornerstones of basketball teams when things are both going good and going bad.

These meetings accomplish things a coach can't always do... make people accountable! The need for these types of meetings are generally much less when the team has a strong leader who automatically makes sure everyone is accountable, but where leadership is weaker or lacking, small groups of players band together to make that happen.

Murph rightly pointed out the Isiah Thomas meeting as a horrible example. That incident took me from a huge supporter to now seeing him as a bit delusional and too into himself to be the player I thought he was. There will always be examples of people abusing something good for evil purposes.

However, these meetings can be quite rough, but they're meant to be, accountability requires hard work and dedication, and some people need to be pushed to be the best they can be, and coaches sometimes need this level of help.

What you can't have is a coach behave like SVG did, he shouldn't take sides unless something is clearly wrong, or player trust in him and each other will suffer. IMO, that's what happened here, SVG initially backed the meeting, but flip flopped like a flounder on the deck, and it basically ruined the season, nobody was the same after that.

@Don: What kind of person are you? You trashed me for no reason, which I initially assumed was a simple mistake on your part. But when Murph informed you that it was his response you had mistaken for me, you addressed the subject again, and never set the record straight... who does that?
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Players only meeting needs more investigation. Just kidding but sure with Baynes, Morris and Tobias Harris would join the forum and provide their comments

Post  cool breeze on Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:12 am

Murph doesn't like players only meetings because his baseball team won while smoking weed and chilling. Damn Murph maybe you have better memories of being a young athlete than any of us. I see why you didn't need to call for a players only meeting.

Sparma thanks for your thoughts and the comments on Casey's comments regarding Johnson. I have no faith in Johnson's jump shot. His release technique is so flawed I can't see how he can shoot above 20%. Now that there has been a coaching change maybe he will go back to his former one handed release but who knows. My belief is that Johnson can be an important role player that every successful team needs to win. He needs to play to his strengths like D. Green does for G.S.. HBO release a documentary after the finals that was great. I really liked what both Curry and Durant said during their interviews. Durant stated that their team has some players who do not need the limelight and shoot the ball as much as players who always get the media attention. Both of those great players know that no team wins without a great group of unselfish athletes who are willing to sacrifice for the team. Green plays down and dirty doing amazing things that help his team. He ocassionaly shoots a 3 ball but that is not why he is playing. Johnson was not drafted in the top 3 in his draft. Piston fans are so starved for a star scorer that they blame him too much when the Pistons lose. Sure there was a player who was drafted by the Suns who is a great outside shooter but Johnson has a different game that is very valuable. He is going to have a great career but maybe not as a Piston while players like RJ play the point guard. Johnson's value is his defensive ability where he can defend the best twos and threes in the league. He is also a good play maker and can break down a defense and hit the cutter well. Johnson will be successful elsewhere when he plays with smarter players who are more team orientated. If Casey expects Johnson to emerge as a pure scorer shooting the lights out from beyond the 3 point line then he will be disappointed. But I like the fact that you noticed that SJ does shoot the 3 well from the baseline corner. With the past Piston dysfunctional offense directed by RJ no wing or baseline skill player could ever be confident that they would even touch the ball more than once each quarter. Johnson needs to be moving within the offense not standing. He can set some hard screens when moving instead of standing and waiting for an occasional pass. What came out of the HBO documentary relating to this last finals series was that one team played for the fun of it and the other team led by Labron looked like they were dreading being out on the court. Our Pistons have not looked like they were having much fun since SVG arrived and before that with the other coaches. The team chemistry as not been good at all. I can't get my mind off that fact. If the Pistons players do not have fun playing the game, then how can we fans enjoy watching them? Players create their environment either good or bad. This coach has a huge obstacle in front of him. I believe that there was better team chemistry last year then the year before which was the worst that I have ever seen with a Piston team. Maybe if the coach assigns designated roles for each player this team can work together better.

Looking at Golden State with two if not three amazing outside shooters who play both offense and defense well and have unusually high basketball IQs, why would a team with no incredible shooters, play makers, smart defenders, or high basketball IQs attempt to play Golden States game? The Pistons have a highly paid center who plays in the paint old style. Why not try old style blood and guts knock em down type Motor City ball and see where that gets the Pistons? Maybe that could get the Pistons into the playoffs at least.

Ballin that was some great stuff you shared with the forum. I forgot about Baynes as being the instigator. Forgot about the comments from Morris too. Forum members can argue forever but I can't understand anyone who wouldn't agree that AD and RJ should not have been selected by the owner as the two team leaders. At any rate I am glad some of the team members stood up for the idea of playing the game the right way. The team had leaders who liked playing the game the wrong way and the coach took their side. That to me was insane especially when thinking about how badly the Pistons were being humiliated by opposing teams during that time period.

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Dwane and Stanley/ Don

Post  Sparma on Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:54 pm

Don: “Yes Casey commented that he watched Johnson work out recently and saw that Johnson was shooting a lot of mid range jump shots so he told Johnson to work more on his 3 point shooting instead of mid range. Casey's comment bothers me a lot because Johnson could have stepped in a few feet when he received the ball and shot the mid range jumper in a lot of games last season. So would Casey tell Hamilton if he were in his prime to shut down his mid range game? Why does every team have to play the same style regardless of the type of talent they have on the team? Why not play to your strength and not copy everyone else who happens to have extremely gifted outside shooters? It is more exciting for fans to see a variety of strategy to maximize your specific talent. Got to shoot the 3 ball because Golden State is successful with it. The Pistons do not have the shooters but they could beat teams with extremely tough defense and by running a more complicated offense based on precise screening and movement without the ball by players who can drill a 8-10 foot jump shot. Johnson could be really effective with a highly developed mid range game where he sets screens in the paint and then releases to the weak area within the opponents defense to get a pass and shoot the mid range shot. To me too many coaches are just throwing the basketball out on the floor in practice and then going to sleep.”

I appreciate your response, Don, and have a few responses in turn.

1) I agree entirely that it sometimes makes sense for a coach to run contrary to prevailing strategies.   This really makes sense when the coach is playing to the strength of the team.  I agree that if you’re simply trying to imitate the best team,  GS, that’s often not the optimal way to go.  I briefly became excited by the prospect of Drummond, Boban, and Baynes forming a formidable Center squadron, with Leuer and Ellenson as additional big guys.  That looked like a case of SVG going against the stream, being a courageous contrarian.  Sadly, that experiment didn’t amount to much, not least because no systematic strategy was ventured in practice.

2) I’m in principle receptive to guys stepping in a few feet, let’s say if they’re able to escape defensive coverage by doing so.  If it makes sense, do it.  And I do think it makes sense at times.  So far, we seem to be on the same page.

3) Rip played in different times, when the three was less featured.  IF the Rip of 15 years ago made a comeback though, I’d encourage him to shoot from mid-range.  He may have been the best mid-range shooter of his era, so yes, agreed, play to his strength. Didn't we hold five teams in a row below 70 points? Points were really hard to come by, also for us, and Rip coming off of multiple screens was a successful strategy. Rip playing 15 years later would likely need to make some adjustment; still, I'd want the team to make use of his great strength.

4) Even though there are exceptions like Rip, the math generally favors what Casey seems to be encouraging: better to shoot from 3 [especially in the corner] rather than from a few feet in.

5) There’s a risk, to say the least, associated with extending a strategy that works well for a great mid-range shooter like Rip to a distinctively mediocre (at best) mid-range shooter like Stanley.

6) The numbers supplied by DBB (“Can Dwane Casey fix Stanley Johnson?), though incomplete, shed light on your suggestion concerning SJ shooting mid-range shots.  DBB: “Over the course of the season, OG [Anunoby] took 12 shots from between 5 and 19 feet. Johnson took 152. He made just 51, good for a 33.5 percent field goal percentage - and those are a bunch of two point attempts where there’s little chance at drawing a foul. Those are bad shots.”  
I don’t really consider 5 ft mid-range, but here let’s call that entire 5-19 ft mid-range so that we can run the available numbers.  At 33.5%, 100 shots from mid-range yield him 67 points (as DBB points out with few accompanying fouls).  Stanley shot a crummy 28.6% from 3 last year.  Even so, one hundred shots at that percentage yields 85.8 points (and 3 point shooters do get fouled once in a while too).  86-67, for 3s at last year’s rate compared to last year’s midrange shots.  That’s like the difference in points in a blow out game in Rip's era.  Casey’s giving Stanley some good advice, then, as best I know even though I hope he’d make an adjustment speaking to Rip.  

7) But that’s not all.  For some reason, Stanley’s moved away from a shooting strategy that worked for him as a rookie.  Is SVG to blame?  After commenting on Stanley’s solid FT%, DBB adds: “Of course, that hasn’t translated to the NBA. Johnson’s jumper has gone through varying forms of ugliness and he’s shot just 29 percent from three. But the corner three has shown potential. In his rookie season, 40 percent of his attempts came from the corner and he connected on 38 percent of them. But he’s gravitated away from the corner in the past two years and his three point percentage has dropped in each season.”  
I again run some numbers (still not knowing what SJ’s shooting % is from 20 ft out to the 3 pt line).  Again, from 5-19 feet, what I’m designating as mid-range here, he shot 33.5%, so that a hundred such shots would yield 67 points (and maybe a few extra FTs).  By contrast his rookie success percentage from corner 3s at 38% delivers 114 points for 100 shots.  So Stanley’s corner 3’s beating the mid-range 114-67!!  Other variables complicate (rebounding, getting back on D) things, but running some numbers, drawing from those supplied by DBB, has me heartily endorsing the shooting strategy that Casey appears to be encouraging Stanley to take.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:31 pm

Don...we've already been over this, but I wouldn't expect you to read anything I posted, let along remember it.  I was co-captain of my high school baseball team my senior year, and no, we never called a players only meeting.  In fact, it was pretty much kumbaya on the baseball team...everyone got along, we smoked dope and drank beer together after Saturday double headers, we liked the coach, the coach never assaulted us or even yelled at us, and we won.


Screw Marcus Morris and his nasty attitude.  I think you folks are confusing criminal behavior for Pistons DNA.  I don't recall Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman or Bill Laimbeer calling team meetings, attacking teammates or physically assaulting people off the court.
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Amazing Murph

Post  WTF on Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:26 pm

Murph wrote:Yes, I disliked Morris from the word go, due to his behavior in Phoenix, which included screaming at his coach during games, bitching at and going after his teammates physically, and committing felonious assault with his bro.  

If he wanted to be a team leader, he got his chance in Phoenix.  He and his brother were signed to long term deals, and were given every opportunity to lead the team.  Instead they acted like thugs.

As a roll player and newcomer in Detroit, it was not Morris' place to call a team meeting attacking Reggie Jackson.  Furthermore, the team meeting did not help the situation, and only made matters worse by further ruining team chemistry, which is often the case.


I generally don't like team meeting, but when MJ and Zeke called team meetings it was much different.  They were team leaders, winners and Hall of Famers, and had the respect and admiration of their temmates.  And I assume when they called team meetings it was constructive and helpful...and not a thinly veiled excuse to take over the offense, like in was in Morris' case.

I respect any man that steps up and take up to defend his mother, daughter, sister or wife even going thug on someone ass Period.  Obviously Murph that  is an issue for you but apparently not the court because neither has been charged or convicted of any crime.

Also matters only can get worse in a player only meeting when half the room is little school girls that can't take to being criticize.  My guess is you hate thugs but love little softy school girls like Reggie and AD.  facepalm 

Also it does matter where the truth comes from players that protest this type of meetings are usually the main ones **** up and don't want it brought to everyone else's attention.  Too bad you could feed into that and only focus on your dislike of Morris defending his mom Wow.
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The Big O on Social Injustice

Post  BallinD on Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:07 pm

He's Got A Point!

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Moving On, Maybe

Post  BallinD on Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:04 pm

Murph, it was widely reported that Aron Baynes called the "players only" meeting, not Morris.  Jus Sayin.

Vince Ellis Story on Players Only Meeting

"The meeting was the idea of center Aron Baynes, but Marcus Morris did most of the talking."

Also, SVG criticized it because the meeting de-facto criticized SVG's offense as executed by RJax, a valid complaint many posters and others have complained about.  Fair Game, I say.

Finally, after the meeting, SVG said he wouldn't be using the same starting lineup; but he lied or backed off his words, undermining his own credibility.  Then he doubled down on his culpability by changing nothing! Except talking out of both sides of his mouth.

#Pistons SVG on lineup changes: "I guarantee you we won't be trotting that (starting) 5 out there."

5:20 PM - Dec 19, 2016


Morris:  “If you have a guy wide open, he has to get the ball. It builds guys' confidence. It makes the game funner. That's just how it is. Of course some dudes are going to get more shots than other dudes. That’s how the game goes,” Morris said. “Guys are not going to respond well when they don’t get the ball when they’re open. That’s just basketball. That’s just the right way. The Spurs, Golden State, Cleveland, the top tier teams play the right way. You never win if you don’t play the right way. That’s just the bottom line.”

“Our offensive frustration is affecting us at the defensive end and we’re losing heart a little bit,” Van Gundy said. “That’s concerning. The offense has not been moving the way it should. The ball is not moving. I got to look at play calls and the whole thing."

Murph wrote:Yes, I disliked Morris from the word go, due to his behavior in Phoenix, which included screaming at his coach during games, bitching at and going after his teammates physically, and committing felonious assault with his bro.  

If he wanted to be a team leader, he got his chance in Phoenix.  He and his brother were signed to long term deals, and were given every opportunity to lead the team.  Instead they acted like thugs.

As a roll player and newcomer in Detroit, it was not Morris' place to call a team meeting attacking Reggie Jackson. Furthermore, the team meeting did not help the situation, and only made matters worse by further ruining team chemistry, which is often the case.


I generally don't like team meeting, but when MJ and Zeke called team meetings it was much different.  They were team leaders, winners and Hall of Famers, and had the respect and admiration of their temmates.  And I assume when they called team meetings it was constructive and helpful...and not a thinly veiled excuse to take over the offense, like in was in Morris' case.


Last edited by BallinD on Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:06 pm

Sparma wrote:Read a good piece on Dwane Casey and SJ.  Think it was at PP.

For SJ it's pretty simple how to improve:

1) He's got to focus on doing what he does well, including defending and getting to the basket.  That also means not trying to do too much, something I think he was prone to at times last year.  It's really there where he could improve, fully accepting the role that best helps the team.

2) He's got to cut down on the number of 3 pointers.  Hoisting up more shots while going down in 3 pt % is foolish, but that's what he did last year.

3) When he does shoot from 3, he needs to focus on shooting from where he (and just about everyone) is most effective, namely the corners.  A shooting chart shows himself spraying shots from all over last year, evidently giving little or no heed to probability.  That's not a mark of high basketball IQ, but it is an area where a coach can help, if only by insisting on playing the right way.

Of course, it would be great if he vastly improved his shooting from distance, but that's not likely to happen over the summer, even if it does happen if he gets to be in the league for ten years.   Shy of that optimal event of him learning to shoot well from distance in the NBA, he can immediately take a couple of steps forward by learning when and where to shoot.  I hope that Casey insists on that much, using straightforward numbers as learning tool.

SJ's been a contentious subject, but I hope that we can agree on that the simple threefold path to improvement (we could add, without dissent, the importance being in top shape and having a good attitude).  Further, I hope that we can agree that if he doesn't follow that straightforward recipe his resulting failure will be on him, not on the coach.  Yes, we can bring up his age and hope that he gets it, or improves his shooting, at some later point, likely somewhere else.  But I for one want to give the coach a fresh slate at the outset, one that his record on improving players like SJ has earned him.  Consequently, in all likelihood I'll resist blaming Casey if SJ runs afoul of the clear path for improving.  That said, I really hope that SJ makes a jump forward this season.  The money squeeze makes it imperative that our young guys move forward.

If it turns out that Reggie J doesn't deliver him the ball in the right spots, or something of the sort, I hope to be receptive to such insights as they prove to be warranted.  To me though, the three basics look to be within his control, hence his responsibility.

Good post Sparma. Yes Casey commented that he watched Johnson work out recently and saw that Johnson was shooting a lot of mid range jump shots so he told Johnson to work more on his 3 point shooting instead of mid range. Casey's comment bothers me a lot because Johnson could have stepped in a few feet when he received the ball and shot the mid range jumper in a lot of games last season. So would Casey tell Hamilton if he were in his prime to shut down his mid range game? Why does every team have to play the same style regardless of the type of talent they have on the team? Why not play to your strength and not copy everyone else who happens to have extremely gifted outside shooters? It is more exciting for fans to see a variety of strategy to maximize your specific talent. Got to shoot the 3 ball because Golden State is successful with it. The Pistons do not have the shooters but they could beat teams with extremely tough defense and by running a more complicated offense based on precise screening and movement without the ball by players who can drill a 8-10 foot jump shot. Johnson could be really effective with a highly developed mid range game where he sets screens in the paint and then releases to the weak area within the opponents defense to get a pass and shoot the mid range shot. To me too many coaches are just throwing the basketball out on the floor in practice and then going to sleep. The Pistons need a highly disciplined low turnover type half court offense where they milk the shot clock to reduce the number of possessions opponents get. Don't force the pace when you have turnover prone type players who are not good finishers at the rim or players who have good court vision. Piston players will need to make a high percentage of mid range and close to the basket shots forcing opponents to take hits with good screening and gradually wear them down physically as the game gets into the 4th quarter. This Piston roster is just not good enough to play the same style as many of the superior teams but they have a chance to win with another style if they all buy into that style. The comments Casey made made me uneasy thinking he has no idea what he is getting into with the Piston roster. He doesn't have prolific shooters like he had in Toronto. Hopefully, Casey will figure things out quickly once he takes control of the team. Based on that comment by Casey will Johnson feel like he is in trouble if he is wide open and shoots a 10 foot shot instead of a 3 pointer? Having a pre conceived plan of basing the offense on 3 point shooting for the Pistons will spell disaster. Winning teams take what opposing defenses gives them. They find a weakness and can do whatever is needed to exploit that weakness. This coach needs to get players on board to develop multiple strengths which includes learning how to make mid range shots and to be able to execute an offense based on that strategy.

FINAL COMMENTS ON PLAYERS ONLY MEETINGS:
There is a mis conception by some fans who most likely have never been on a high school or college team let alone playing in the NBA who voiced their dislike for players only meetings. Did you ever play any other varsity sport in high school?  My high school football team held a players only meeting that lasted for several hours the day after we suffered a bitter loss when I was a junior. The real stud seniors at the time really got on some of the younger guys including me. They depended on us to do our jobs the right way and some of us were not doing our jobs well enough. For the older guys that season was their last chance to win a championship. For me I felt that players only meeting might have been the best thing that ever happened to me as an athlete. I knew the seniors would be watching me and knew they would be depending on me to make the correct decisions and give maximum effort on the field when it counted in the games. It doesn't matter what the sport might be. When you were in school the teachers didn't take your test. You took the test and how you performed on the test determined where you stood as a student. Coaches try to make players better and teach them how to work on their weak areas and develop an overall strategy by installing a offense and defense. When game time arrives coaches can also make adjustments in strategy and change out players if needed. Coaches are on the sidelines watching like fans and hoping the players perform the way coaches believe they can perform. I have been on the bench in a coaching role instead of being on the court as a player and believe me it is very difficult to just sit there and not be able to make plays yourself. It is gut wrenching when things go badly for your team if you are a coach. Players have to be receptive to coaching and not be thin skinned babies or there is no chance that they can improve and overcome their weaknesses. As a player you never know if you have the right stuff on any given night when he comes to making jump shots just feeling good so you can go all out energy wise. But you are out there playing and and determining the outcome of games not sitting and having that helpless feeling you have at times when coaching.  The players all know that once the game begins there is nothing any coach can do for them. The game of basketball is so fast that players need to give full mental concentration to be able to out think their opponent or the player they are matched up with. Players also need down time during timeouts to collect themselves mentally and that is why you often see players looking away from a coach who is yelling instructions during those timeouts. Screaming and venting by coaches at timeouts at players have no positive impact. A few calm words at the end of the timeout works much better when coaches keep things simple for the players.

You can make the statement a thousand times and some fans refuse to believe the simple truth that players especially NBA players determine who wins and which team will lose.  Our Piston players regardless of who the head coach might be will continue to be on the losing side if they don't make a drastic change regarding their work ethic during games and over the summer when the great players work on their weaknesses. Right now RJ and AD should be working with defensive specialists to improve their mental approach to playing defense because neither have the right mindset and both have the ability to become really good defenders. However, my best guess is that they are not doing that at all. AD says he is concentrating on his jump shot. Last summer he initially said that everyone on the team needed rest. Then he worked on his free throw shooting which was great but not his defensive game. Now he says he is working on his jump shot. Looks to me that his goal is to improve his own stats not improve his team's chances of winning. To become a game changing defensive center, AD will have to not only work hard with a top rated defensively skilled coach for the entire summer but he will also have to lose 25 pounds and get in much better physical condition. I expect that both RJ and AD will return with the same mindset they have had in previous seasons. Nobody should expect any different result especially when they start slacking in December, January and February. NBA players seldom change who they are as players. Drayman Green is who he has always been as a player. AD and RJ are who they have always been as players.

Good luck Mr. Casey you will need it. If AD and RJ do not change who they are as players then I will be greatly disappointed if the rest of the roster players do not call for a players only meeting. It is never the coach who loses. Those players who want to change the way the team is playing to improve team chemistry and win instead of being connected with losers will show great character if they force a players only meeting. Maybe they can call Marcus Morris for advise but perhaps RJ and AD will not attend this time.

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Morris

Post  Murph on Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:46 am

Yes, I disliked Morris from the word go, due to his behavior in Phoenix, which included screaming at his coach during games, bitching at and going after his teammates physically, and committing felonious assault with his bro.  

If he wanted to be a team leader, he got his chance in Phoenix.  He and his brother were signed to long term deals, and were given every opportunity to lead the team.  Instead they acted like thugs.

As a roll player and newcomer in Detroit, it was not Morris' place to call a team meeting attacking Reggie Jackson.  Furthermore, the team meeting did not help the situation, and only made matters worse by further ruining team chemistry, which is often the case.


I generally don't like team meeting, but when MJ and Zeke called team meetings it was much different.  They were team leaders, winners and Hall of Famers, and had the respect and admiration of their temmates.  And I assume when they called team meetings it was constructive and helpful...and not a thinly veiled excuse to take over the offense, like in was in Morris' case.
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Player Meetings

Post  WTF on Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:04 am

Murph wrote:4.  I have never liked players only meetings.  We pay a coach for a reason.  Coaches need to hold the meetings.  And I have really never liked players only meetings when they are called by peripheral or complementary players, such as Morris, to bitch about the team leaders and the way the offense is run.  In such cases, I see players only meetings as very self-serving and cynical.  

Murph you hated Morris from the word go there was nothing wrong with him calling out players in a player only meeting.  Here's why.....

1. Of all the players on the team Morris likely gave 100% effort every single time he stepped on the floor so that in itself gave him the right to call out any slackers and both AD and Reggie were the main culprits when it came to slacking.

2. Many times Morris carried the team or lead the charge on both ends of the court by default he was the team leader.  This whole scenario reminds me of the issue both Moose and AD had with Josh calling them out for their lack of hustle.  I 'm not the least surprise Reggie and AD had issues with being called out.  

3. The view from the bench and the view from the floor is different and players know better than a coach at times who half ass in their effort.  The Bad Boys had player only meetings all the time headed my the captain and co-captains aka leaders.  You're wrong to even refer to Reggie or AD as team leaders as if they could call any player to the carpet.

Teams that want to win have player only meetings, Magic had them with the Lakers, MJ had them and so did Zeke. I don't recall Bird ever having them with the Celtics but Elite Teams with Elite Players do have them.   This meetings make the team better Reggie and AD aren't above being criticized for their lack of effort and heart.  

Josh wasn't wrong for publicly calling the out and Morris wasn't wrong for doing so privately.  I think even Tay called out players effort but I agree some players need to be quiet but Morris and Josh as well as Tay earn the right to do so.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:45 pm

Earth to Don: Murph wrote those comments, not Oracle.

And I was not referring to Zeke in my post, I was referring to the Isaiah Thomas that played for the Cavs for a couple of months,and called for a team meeting to trash Kevin Love.
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Stanley Johnson Improvement?

Post  Sparma on Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:37 pm

Read a good piece on Dwane Casey and SJ.  Think it was at PP.

For SJ it's pretty simple how to improve:

1) He's got to focus on doing what he does well, including defending and getting to the basket.  That also means not trying to do too much, something I think he was prone to at times last year.  It's really there where he could improve, fully accepting the role that best helps the team.

2) He's got to cut down on the number of 3 pointers.  Hoisting up more shots while going down in 3 pt % is foolish, but that's what he did last year.

3) When he does shoot from 3, he needs to focus on shooting from where he (and just about everyone) is most effective, namely the corners.  A shooting chart shows himself spraying shots from all over last year, evidently giving little or no heed to probability.  That's not a mark of high basketball IQ, but it is an area where a coach can help, if only by insisting on playing the right way.

Of course, it would be great if he vastly improved his shooting from distance, but that's not likely to happen over the summer, even if it does happen if he gets to be in the league for ten years. Shy of that optimal event of him learning to shoot well from distance in the NBA, he can immediately take a couple of steps forward by learning when and where to shoot. I hope that Casey insists on that much, using straightforward numbers as learning tool.

SJ's been a contentious subject, but I hope that we can agree on that the simple threefold path to improvement (we could add, without dissent, the importance being in top shape and having a good attitude).  Further, I hope that we can agree that if he doesn't follow that straightforward recipe his resulting failure will be on him, not on the coach.  Yes, we can bring up his age and hope that he gets it, or improves his shooting, at some later point, likely somewhere else.  But I for one want to give the coach a fresh slate at the outset, one that his record on improving players like SJ has earned him.  Consequently, in all likelihood I'll resist blaming Casey if SJ runs afoul of the clear path for improving.  That said, I really hope that SJ makes a jump forward this season.  The money squeeze makes it imperative that our young guys move forward.

If it turns out that Reggie J doesn't deliver him the ball in the right spots, or something of the sort, I hope to be receptive to such insights as they prove to be warranted.  To me though, the three basics look to be within his control, hence his responsibility.


Last edited by Sparma on Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:26 pm

Murph wrote:1.  I am not going to pass judgement on Bruce Brown or any rookie, before I've seen him play a single game.  I do like the fact that the Pistons drafted for perimeter defense, and I think Thomas and Brown can provide that.  

2.  Based on his history at Toronto, I think Casey is the man for the job of developing our draft picks amd young players.  SVG was singularly disinterested in developing draft picks and young players, and was completely incompetent at it.  But back to Casey, if anyone can develop Khyri Thomas and Bruce Brown, and fix Stanley Johnson's and Brown's offense, it's Dwane Casey.  And while Casey is at it, he should try to fix Henry Ellenson's defense.

3.  IMO, the Pistons never intended to resign Avery Bradley in order to keep him.  By acquiring Bradley, the Pistons were accomplishing two goals.  First, they were dumping the malcontent, Marcus Morris, and second they were acquiring an expiring contract that should have been used to acquire a starting PG.  Instead, SVG panicked to save his job, and went off the rails in acquiring Blake Griffin, who has the worst contract in the NBA.  And we still need a starting PG.   But my point is that the Pistons never intended to keep Bradley; he was only acquired to clear Morris and his contract from the team.

4.  I have never liked players only meetings.  We pay a coach for a reason.  Coaches need to hold the meetings.  And I have really never liked players only meetings when they are called by peripheral or complementary players, such as Morris, to bitch about the team leaders and the way the offense is run.  In such cases, I see players only meetings as very self-serving and cynical.  

Another example of this, was when Isaiah Thomas called a players only meeting in Cleveland last season to bitch about and usurp power from Kevin Love, who had been in Cleveland for 4 years, had won a Championship with the Cavs, was an integral part of their offense, and is a future Hall of Famer.  It is not a coincidence that both Marcus Morris and Isaiah Thomas were dumped immediately for under market value.  You can't have the lunatics running the asylum.

Oracle your comments about player only meetings shows me that you have never played on a high school basketball team. You have a right to make your comments on your distain for players only meetings but my experience has been that it is a good thing to clear the air without a coach present. Coaches do not play in the games. Winning teams have good team chemistry. Usually when those meetings are called it is because the team chemistry is really bad. This was the case with our Pistons two seasons ago. Your comments absolutely floored me Oracle. I have never heard of anyone with the exception of you and SVG who want them banned. The players only meeting was held because there was a group of players who wanted to win and play the right way. It was designed to call out Reggie Jackson. The players who called the meeting were embarrassed because the Pistons were getting blown out in the first quarter of most games. Maybe you liked the way Reggie played for the Pistons two seasons ago. We fans bicker with each other now because we are all embarrassed with the way our Pistons have performed especially two seasons ago when AD and RJ were the designated team leaders. There was a clear lack of effort by those two team captains and anyone who watched the games felt sick at heart because the team chemistry was so bad. My favorite player on the team was Tobias Harris for the past two seasons. I am bitter about losing him. It shouldn't have happened. We should be celebrating our first round pick. But I just hope Blake Griffin takes the leadership now. He needs to be communicating with everyone now to let them know what he expects out of them next season. Maybe Blake feels he hasn't been on the team long enough but no team wins in the NBA without strong leaders who show by example how to play the right way.

There is a good article today on our new coach's emphasis for next season. I really liked what he said about developing the young guys Kennard, Johnson and Ellenson. I especially liked his comment about allowing those players to make mistakes and not put them on a short leash like SVG did. That should be good news for Henry E. I also believe that Casey wants to win. Knowing that I expect him to change both AD and RJ's games in training camp. He knows from coaching against those two where their weaknesses are and must help them eliminate their weaknesses. I really like the idea of forcing RJ to play off the ball and run the offense through Blake. Maybe you and a few others will not be watching AD and RJ closely but many Piston fans will be demanding more from them relating to putting the team first not stats first. Everyone gets a fresh start when training camp arrives and that includes RJ and AD. But the truth will come out in December, January and February when the men are separated from the boys.

Hard to read your comments on Zeke Oracle but for sure you don't like it when I pick on AD and RJ so go with it. Just surprising that you would bring up a negative about the best Piston player of all time. Yet maybe you believe that RJ and AD will be known as the best players of all time. Again, I respect your right to your opinion regardless of what you say about me personally or my opinions.

We live in America where our founders worried big time about group thinkers and promoted the individual to the status of being born with our right to life with no interference by whatever government leaders might be in power at any specific time period. Other nations disagree with that idea and believe the government gives people their right to life. You are guilty and must prove your innocence. We are free to voice our thoughts at least for this moment. There is a movement to shut that down if you haven't noticed. When the group thinkers start calling political opponents names and threaten opponents with labels using the argument of intimidation instead of arguing with respect "ideas" then the horror will begin.

What makes this forum great is that we can voice our opinions right or wrong. I admit that I am not always right about a lot of things but I base my opinions on what I actually see in the games and am not corrupted by propaganda that is sometimes created by player agents. Did AD box out at the end of games? I didn't see that happening. Did Reggie Jackson freeze out the 2 guard and at times the small forward yes I did. Did I see RJ give a weak effort on defense. Yes I did. Did I see RJ hog the ball a lot since he arrived in Piston land? Yes. Did I see Stanley Johnson launch too many 3 point attempts? Yes I did but know that he felt that he had to shoot it because the ball might not come his way any time soon unless he got a steal. Did Johnson and others believe that RJ was freezing them out? I am confident that they did feel that way. How does that affect team chemistry when the head coach turns a blind eye to those shenanigans? Always badly and that is when player only meetings have happen in my humble opinion.

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A Few Points

Post  Murph on Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:06 am

1.  I am not going to pass judgement on Bruce Brown or any rookie, before I've seen him play a single game.  I do like the fact that the Pistons drafted for perimeter defense, and I think Thomas and Brown can provide that.  

2.  Based on his history at Toronto, I think Casey is the man for the job of developing our draft picks amd young players.  SVG was singularly disinterested in developing draft picks and young players, and was completely incompetent at it.  But back to Casey, if anyone can develop Khyri Thomas and Bruce Brown, and fix Stanley Johnson's and Brown's offense, it's Dwane Casey.  And while Casey is at it, he should try to fix Henry Ellenson's defense.

3.  IMO, the Pistons never intended to resign Avery Bradley in order to keep him.  By acquiring Bradley, the Pistons were accomplishing two goals.  First, they were dumping the malcontent, Marcus Morris, and second they were acquiring an expiring contract that should have been used to acquire a starting PG.  Instead, SVG panicked to save his job, and went off the rails in acquiring Blake Griffin, who has the worst contract in the NBA.  And we still need a starting PG.   But my point is that the Pistons never intended to keep Bradley; he was only acquired to clear Morris and his contract from the team.

4.  I have never liked players only meetings.  We pay a coach for a reason.  Coaches need to hold the meetings.  And I have really never liked players only meetings when they are called by peripheral or complementary players, such as Morris, to bitch about the team leaders and the way the offense is run.  In such cases, I see players only meetings as very self-serving and cynical.  

Another example of this, was when Isaiah Thomas called a players only meeting in Cleveland last season to bitch about and usurp power from Kevin Love, who had been in Cleveland for 4 years, had won a Championship with the Cavs, was an integral part of their offense, and is a future Hall of Famer.  It is not a coincidence that both Marcus Morris and Isaiah Thomas were dumped immediately for under market value. You can't have the lunatics running the asylum.
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Payton

Post  Oracle on Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:04 am

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2782712-nba-rumors-suns-to-renounce-rights-to-alex-len-elfrid-payton wrote:Payton, meanwhile, averaged 11.8 points and 6.2 assists in 19 games for the Suns last year after being acquired in a trade with the Orlando Magic. He shot just 20.0 percent from three with the team, however, and his 29.8 percent shooting from beyond the arc for his career has consistently limited his offensive upside

Even for the point guard-depleted Suns, it's easy to see why Payton isn't in their long-term plans. 
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Don/Wise

Post  Oracle on Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:01 am

It's not about venting or calling out things as you see them. Hell, if that was the case, why don't we do that with Wise?

Don's rants are very far out there without any facts... NONE!

There was a time that the general consensus was that no team could win a championship with Avery Johnson as the starting PG! Avery won a 'ship by becoming a better player, and some of the guys here can do the same.

However if your analysis is that they're fundamentally flawed and could never change, then that person has a knowledge of what's going on in a players mind that defies credulity?

I argued hard against the Avery Bradley trade, but I used facts. Fact 1 was that he has never played a full season in his life and the probability that he would crap out again was approaching 100%. That he was not someone for the future based on size and age, and that he could never effectively replace both KCP & Morris.

But I readily agreed that he was an upgrade and I thought we would do well while he was healthy.

Point being, negative isn't the issue, I fully expect everyone to fall in line, some complaining all the time, but wanting to see us win.

What baffles me is that this new management team is saying and doing all of the right things, but it rarely gets acknowledged... oh well.
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Re: FORUM

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