A poor blade only cuts one way

[deusXango]

Pre-season is a time for player evaluations, but with the strangeness of the Pistons regression last year, the Pistons pre-season is for coaching evaluations also. The decision making of a great coach is as important as the X's and O's and with Drummond expected to miss tonight's game, who starts at center is an important decision, especially since this game doesn't count on the season; will it be Boban (who's as game ready as can be) or will it be Leuer who SVG "see as a starter in this league?"

Who starts tonight is a clear indication of where SVG's head is at in terms of his rotation; if his mind is made up now, where's the room for open competitiveness? Drummond and Jackson are locks to start, as is Bradley at SG, but absent Andre and Reggie, Bradley is stuck at SG more than a lock...what, no room for Kennard to start and Bradley can't show his combo guard skills by starting at PG? These games don't count, but they damn sure matter to SVG. Even the most casual fans want to see Boban in a starting role, but if we get Leuer as a starter, well......

If we are going with a small set of forwards, wouldn't this be the perfect time to see how Bullock and Harris play together? I don't think we should be stuck on SJ and Harris at this point; sure, I'd be okay with Bullock and Harris, but I'd really, really, love to see Harris and Ellenson as our starting forwards. If our coach decided to start and play the players for one game, instead of the "money men," that'd be an indication, to me at least, that ego and stubbornness no longer poisons our brain trust. We've got a better team, now all we need is better coaching.

[Oracle]

If I were SVG, I would not start SJ.  Van Gundy has several better options at the forward spot than SJ.  I'd move Harris to SF, and start Ellenson, Leuer or even Tolliver or Moreland at PF.  Moving Harris to SF and starting another PF, makes the lineup bigger and stronger and better on the boards.

I stand firmly with Murph on this. To the naysayers, I suggest, for your kind consideration; this is not a contending team, but a team in the rebuilding/developing mode. We should stop following clown ass SVG's subtle suggestions that our hope lies in the 8th seed and making the playoffs...that'll save his job, but it won't satisfy the fans who're expecting basketball excellence (contending for championships).

Stanley Johnson should earn a starting spot and not be given one by default...because Morris is gone naming him a starter is by default. The other option, which I hate to entertain, is that over the summer he learned to kiss Van Gundy's ass and now his ineptitude will be tolerated (Andre, Reggie J., and Leuer as examples) and free passes will be given. IMHO Ellenson has done more this offseason to earn a starting look at a forward spot, plus he and Harris make more sense than any other combination.

Wise, I'm working beads(this may be a dumb question, but what are beads?) waiting for this trade you predicted and I hope it happens soon...I think this sore cojones that Reggie is experiencing is really a stall to being traded. Speaking of trades, I'm still hoping Jon Leuer is traded while he still has some value...he's in the way of development as much as Reggie is and he doesn't stand out in any area of basketball (I've never heard him being mentioned as a leader on this team, not once!). Reggie and Jon should harvest something the Pistons can use to get better...sitting around in the red, white, and blue won't do anything but stifle our hopes of getting significantly better.

Murph is on to something! Stanley may make his move this season, but he'll get the same minutes whether he starts or not, and Murph makes a GREAT case for him not starting, and here's why.

1. My biggest objection to Bradley has been his size. If we surround him with bigger players, that mitigates the size factor and makes me a lot more comfortable.
2. I talked about winning matchups, and Harris played out of position at the 4 isn't as big an advantage as Harris, with his size playing at the 3. IMO, he wins more matchups there, even if he's more challenged defensively at the 3.
3. This is what SVG has driven me to and I don't like to say this, but starting Stanley may give SVG the ammunition to sit him again. The leash won't be long, and building him up, only to tear him down will cause team problems. Better to let him, as DX said, earn it off the bench IMO.

I used to really love to hear SVG speak but now I can't stand to hear him speak, he just sounds like a liar now, I've lost trust in him. I hope he can turn this around and win me back, but right now, I don't have a good feeling about him and I don't like that.

Ellenson vs Leuer: From the limited sample I saw, Leuer was the best PF on the floor in the first game. When I said Ellenson played great, I grade youngsters on a different curve. When Kennard and Ellenson play at the level of an NBA scrub, I call it great considering their experience, because it shows maturity. When Leuer plays like a scrub, that's bad, considering where he should be. But he did play a very good game and impressed me, the question is can he keep it up.

So I wouldn't think of starting Ellenson just yet, like Stanley, he will appreciate it a lot more if he wins the position. However if Leuer is traded, that's a different story.

Trading Reggie: I wouldn't hold my breath! Nobody wants to buy a pig in a poke(whatever that means ). He's not been seen playing in damn near a year, and he's got another injury where nobody seems to be able to tell you when he's coming back? Not trading material to me, but you never know.

[deusXango]

If I were SVG, I would not start SJ.  Van Gundy has several better options at the forward spot than SJ.  I'd move Harris to SF, and start Ellenson, Leuer or even Tolliver or Moreland at PF.  Moving Harris to SF and starting another PF, makes the lineup bigger and stronger and better on the boards.

I stand firmly with Murph on this. To the naysayers, I suggest, for your kind consideration; this is not a contending team, but a team in the rebuilding/developing mode. We should stop following clown ass SVG's subtle suggestions that our hope lies in the 8th seed and making the playoffs...that'll save his job, but it won't satisfy the fans who're expecting basketball excellence (contending for championships).

Stanley Johnson should earn a starting spot and not be given one by default...because Morris is gone naming him a starter is by default. The other option, which I hate to entertain, is that over the summer he learned to kiss Van Gundy's ass and now his ineptitude will be tolerated (Andre, Reggie J., and Leuer as examples) and free passes will be given. IMHO Ellenson has done more this offseason to earn a starting look at a forward spot, plus he and Harris make more sense than any other combination.

Wise, I'm working beads waiting for this trade you predicted and I hope it happens soon...I think this sore cojones that Reggie is experiencing is really a stall to being traded. Speaking of trades, I'm still hoping Jon Leuer is traded while he still has some value...he's in the way of development as much as Reggie is and he doesn't stand out in any area of basketball (I've never heard him being mentioned as a leader on this team, not once!). Reggie and Jon should harvest something the Pistons can use to get better...sitting around in the red, white, and blue won't do anything but stifle our hopes of getting significantly better.

[Murph]

If I were SVG, I would not start SJ. Van Gundy has several better options at the forward spot than SJ. I'd move Harris to SF, and start Ellenson, Leuer or even Tolliver or Moreland at PF. Moving Harris to SF and starting another PF, makes the lineup bigger and stronger and better on the boards.

[BallinD]

On the topic of Leadership, it seems, maybe patterns are emerging:

...Tolliver is clearly in a leadership role and may hold onto that, or at least a piece of it even as the season progresses.
...Bradley clearly appears to be leading by example to change the entire culture of the team.
...But Dre if he plays hard and dunks on opponents heads, and he continues to talks like he believes he is that team leader guy "My Team" type player who buys into defense, then he could possibly co lead with Bradley.
...Weggie appears to be the cheerleader.

[WTF]

Andre contract provides that illusion that he's the leader as well as SVG ignorance to label him Franchise/ Then add to that SVG reluctances to handle RJ appropriately (trading or benching) him.  In order for Bradley to become a leader both AD and RJ will need to take a step back and it likely won't happen.


The moment Moose walked AD immediately proclaimed himself the Self Appointed Leader sadly he hasn't lead or carried this team yet.  IMO if SVG had a half of brain he would have been trying to figure out how to turn KCP into the next D-Wade oppose to trying to make AD the next Howard.

Also rest assure that the more the young players gravitate towards Bradley the more unhappy both AD and RJ will become and the player only meetings will start.

1. RJ  thinks he should be getting what AD makes there's some quiet hate there so don't be fooled.
2. AD will start scapegoating the team perhaps Harris this time around since both Morris and KCP are gone now. Weird how your 2 best defenders are gone.
3. 1 and 2 won't happen if SVG grows a pair and trade RJ before the season starts (I think he will) but 

[cool breeze]

You said a lot of things that I have high hopes are true. I also believe that Stanley is ready to take the next step and you can tell that from the way he is thinking. I saw the same Stanley last night, but that wasn't a bad thing. I saw a player that played within himself, and he needs to do that before spreading his wings a bit more, so I'm with you there.

However, what you said in the title is the absolute LAST thing I hope will happen!

You don't need to convince people that on a clear day, the sky is blue... It's visibly obvious!

Nobody should force or try to force Bradley down players throats, if he is the person that you describe, it's going to be obvious. Leadership like Zeke's & Chauncey's and even Ben, is EARNED, not declared or decreed!

Just relax and let it happen naturally...

You are correct Oracle. Nobody should force any one player down other players throats. The young talented players really appreciate Avery Bradley being on this team. Nobody would have to force anything. But last season that is exactly what happened when the owner and SVG forced Andre Drummond down everyone's throat. I love that expression you provided. That is what pissed me off the most about Piston management. Did AD want to be the team leader? He has never been a team leader. But because the owner forked out over 20M he thought that is the way things should be and wouldn't you know it, SVG went right with that program. Even after AD botched things up when he told what went on in the players only meeting which no team leader should ever do if he wants the respect of his teammates, SVG created even more drama when he came to AD's aid being he was Piston management's not the roster players leader and backed up AD and instructed the players that there would be no additional players only meeting allowed. I don't want that type of nonsense from Piston management this year. If it is up to the players not SVG, then Avery Bradley will be the team leader. He is the logical choice. If the players decide on someone else then so be it but I only wrote that post to say someone is watching you SVG. The players need to pick their leader not the owner or the head coach/President. SVG knows better than that. He should have listened to his Father who would never do that type of thing even if the owner threatened to fire him. I have this special relationship with our franchise player Stan. I own the team so I think we need to make AD our team leader. OK your the boss. Was it the simple? Made no sense at all. And Reggie is no leader either. He needs to be managed by a good team leader so he will share the basketball more. If Reggie wants to be the team leader than he better show that he is willing to give an honest effort on defense.

[Oracle]

You said a lot of things that I have high hopes are true. I also believe that Stanley is ready to take the next step and you can tell that from the way he is thinking. I saw the same Stanley last night, but that wasn't a bad thing. I saw a player that played within himself, and he needs to do that before spreading his wings a bit more, so I'm with you there.

However, what you said in the title is the absolute LAST thing I hope will happen!

You don't need to convince people that on a clear day, the sky is blue... It's visibly obvious!

Nobody should force or try to force Bradley down players throats, if he is the person that you describe, it's going to be obvious. Leadership like Zeke's & Chauncey's and even Ben, is EARNED, not declared or decreed!

Just relax and let it happen naturally...

[cool breeze]

Just got through taking to a friend who knows Stanley Johnson. Avery Bradley is having a very positive impact on this Piston roster. He plays the right way all of the time and his teammates notice and admire his work ethic and knowledge of the game. Piston management needs to do everything they can to sign Bradley after this season. Although I have not had the opportunity to see our Pistons play, it is clear that there is a different vibe going on in Piston land. This is not Reggie Jackson's team although I hope he can come back healthy and have a great season. When our Pistons started winning in different eras, we all knew that those teams were led by Zeke and Chauncey. Bradley has all the tools to be a good leader. He plays with courage with a high basketball IQ. He is ready to play every game mentally. He has the most playoff experience of any player on the roster. His defense aggressiveness is outstanding. And Avery is a great communicator. Without a solid leader, NBA teams flounder and are soon forgotten. Somehow Piston management got involved is determining who would lead and based it on the amount of their contracts. AD and RJ were the designated leaders. RJ couldn't lead because he was hurt and is also an embarrassment when he plays defense. AD just hasn't yet figured out how to play basketball the right way and learn all there is to playing with consistency especially on defense. By allowing such a player to be called the team leader shows how inept of a coach SVG was last season. As we attempt to shed our memories of the inept coaching and game preparation and execution by SVG's chosen players, we must watch closely to see if management interferes with the team chemistry that has already formed between the younger players and Avery Bradley. Tolliver will also back them up because he doesn't want a repeat of AD's attempts to lead this team into darkness. It will be necessary for Reggie Jackson to accept his role on the team and to follow the lead of Avery Bradley's idea as to how the game should be played. Avery's vision does not include allowing the point guard to hog the basketball. The point guard's role on this team should be to help make Reggie's teammates more successful by sharing the basketball and placing teammates in positions that will allow them to be involved in the offense.

I think differently that some of you fans. I believe that Bradley and Harris will clutch heroic players this season. And Johnson if healthy will emerge as a beast around mid season being that glue type player who does all the dirty work necessary on both ends of the floor. Johnson is not a dumb player. He has a really high basketball IQ. Once he gets a few good games under his belt and the team starts winning consistently, Johnson is a player everyone will love. He will and can do the impossible. Bradley will get Johnson, Kennard and Ellenson so jacked up they will forget that they are playing in the NBA which means they will be going all out to win.

This is the season for the Pistons as a team to eliminate "SLACKING". Some players got really good at slacking and it is a habit that is hard to break especially with players who have 5 or more years of experience at doing it on a regular basis. "NO SLACKING PLEASE". I hope some Piston fan holds a sign up when the regular season starts. Maybe fans should have reminded the Piston coaching staff last season to watch for slacking. SVG saw it at least one time even with his blinders on as his mind wandered at times while contemplating politics instead of what was going on in the games. Or was SVG day dreaming about the 4 out 1 in offense too much to concentrate on what was happening on defense. But SVG did identify issues more than once. Yes AD when the coach tells you that you didn't look "engaged" he meant that you were caught slacking and not earning that $20M you got. So we will be watching. I can't imagine that Bradley will allow such behavior if he is the team leader. Last season a "SLACKER" was appointed team captain by the head coach. Has that ever happened before?

[Oracle]

I observed a few things about this game.

1. Kennard, while not great, was great for a freaking rookie. Loved the way he took 2 pointers when his deep ball wasn't working
2. Galloway looks decent
3. This is the gang that can't shoot straight, a paltry 29% from deep(3), 69% from the charity stripe WTF???
4. Stanley doesn't look any better and did about what he normally does with big minutes
5. Harris and Bradley look fairly pedestrian.
6. Drummond looked the same, but 6 of 8 from the FT line is AWESOME!!! he certainly didn't pull that FT average down tonight!!!

But it was only the first preseason game, so a lot can and will change for the better.

LCA records its first Piston loss!

Thanks for the report Oracle. How did Ellenson look?  AD 6 for 8 at the line. It is time to celebrate. Has his technique changed? Did you attend the game?

Ellenson looked great, I forgot to mention that. Evidently he looked good enough that I don't believe Tolliver got off the pine, which is fine by me at this point.

Andre's FT shooting looks the same, just a straighter shot, meaning that it doesn't go wide like it used to. 6/8 is fantastic, I'd settle for 50% and call it a win.

I saw the game on league pass, so that exposes me as believing that we will do good this year. I only get it when I want to keep an eye on our competitors because we're in contention, plus I like the ability to watch games on the internet when I can't get home or to a TV.

If Reggie misses the preseason, I will start to worry a bit, but after watching, I see that once we can get the chemistry going, we may be alright.

I was concerned about the 3 point shooting because as I've said, it may be SVG's offense that generates these bad 3 point shots, but it's too early to tell.

[WTF]

Secondly, while we could contend with 15 players that are hard working and team oriented, we'd likely get frustrated because they would be the Toronto Raptors. Good enough to be pesky, but not really good enough to beat the better teams. There's simply no substitute for TALENT!

Isn't this the exact kind of team that took us too the Finals in both 2004 and 2005 and ran off 7 or 8 ECF visits from 2002 to 2009?  I see some comparable pieces on the team right now to what we had during that stretch if used and coached properly.   

We shouldn't be solely relying on Reggie and Andre  the talent separation is that huge from the rest of the team Bradley and Harris aren't scrubs.

I was thinking the same thing when I first read your comment, but didn't say anything after I thought about it.

No, Harris & Bradley aren't scrubs, but they aren't that good either.

They aren't as good as any two of the top 4 teams in the conference, Wall & Beal, or anybody else.

That 2004 team was talent loaded with high picks and great talent in general!

Of course in this teams current state they're no where close to a 2004 team.  I just honestly believe that a collection of fundamentally sound players out trumps talent at least when it comes to the Pistons especially the "Goin To Work" team.

When I think about Chauncey and the crew they were more fundamentally sound then they were talented.  Then tack on that they played hard with a great deal of confidence they've became winners.   But they were flawed but most times played within their limitations,  example Chauncey wasn't the quickest or most athletic PG of his time and an average defender to boot but he became an AS because he played smart.

Another example would be Big Ben he doesn't have the offensive talent as AD likely a worst FT shooter but we all know who was the better center.  If AD had the will and desire of Big Ben forget 2 levels he would be off the chart.  

Admittedly we did a have some former Top 10 picks on the team (CB, Sheed, Corliss and Rip)  I think everyone else deep in the 1st or 2nd rounds hell was Big Ben even drafted.  

I think Bradley and Harris and other comparable talent players like them can collectively win just like the Goin To Work crew did.

[cool breeze]

I observed a few things about this game.

1. Kennard, while not great, was great for a freaking rookie. Loved the way he took 2 pointers when his deep ball wasn't working
2. Galloway looks decent
3. This is the gang that can't shoot straight, a paltry 29% from deep(3), 69% from the charity stripe WTF???
4. Stanley doesn't look any better and did about what he normally does with big minutes
5. Harris and Bradley look fairly pedestrian.
6. Drummond looked the same, but 6 of 8 from the FT line is AWESOME!!! he certainly didn't pull that FT average down tonight!!!

But it was only the first preseason game, so a lot can and will change for the better.

LCA records its first Piston loss!

Thanks for the report Oracle. How did Ellenson look? AD 6 for 8 at the line. It is time to celebrate. Has his technique changed? Did you attend the game?

[Oracle]

I observed a few things about this game.

1. Kennard, while not great, was great for a freaking rookie. Loved the way he took 2 pointers when his deep ball wasn't working
2. Galloway looks decent
3. This is the gang that can't shoot straight, a paltry 29% from deep(3), 69% from the charity stripe WTF???
4. Stanley doesn't look any better and did about what he normally does with big minutes
5. Harris and Bradley look fairly pedestrian.
6. Drummond looked the same, but 6 of 8 from the FT line is AWESOME!!! he certainly didn't pull that FT average down tonight!!!

But it was only the first preseason game, so a lot can and will change for the better.

LCA records its first Piston loss!

[cool breeze]

Was SVG part of the damage control team when Ted Kennedy was behind the wheel not just relating to Mary Jo but also the Washington DC accidents late at night under the influence? It seems that SVG really thinks we are all idiots and have short memories. Does he believe that if AD dominates in the pre season games we will be at all impressed? No SVG we all will be waiting for the collapse when we arrive at the Christmas Holidays. That is when AD went AWOL for the rest of the season last year. He always has slacked during the months of December, January, February, and then around the time when the NCAA tournament begins AD puts out a little bit more effort but it is hard to notice. He played a ting bit harder in his contract season but not after he signed the big contract. The NBA regular season is a horrible grind for the players who really care about playing the right way. Because of the quantity of games due to greed by the players, agents and the owners the games are dull at best. AD knows that and made sure slacking was part of his game plan so he could be fresh after all those games. Fans are the only honest people involved with the NBA. We are the innocent victims especially those who spend the money to attend meaningless games.

AD is said to have lost 30 pounds. At least he did not appear in training camp 30 pounds over weight like Jason Maxiell did after he signed his second contract. Maybe he is motivated but how do you become a good defensive player over night after spending a lifetime never caring about learning the fundamentals? It will be interesting if we see AD actually remember to box out his man on the boards this year at least one time. Few big men in the NBA do it anymore. It is just easier to fake it hoping fans won't notice. It was clear that SVG and his coaches put their blinders on regarding how AD abused the fundamentals of playing defense last season especially with pick and roll defense. So how can we fans really believe that this is a new AD who has forgotten all of his bad habits? Last season opposing teams really loved playing against AD almost as much as RJ.

RJ is another slacker on the defensive end. He has always been a slacker and that was just one of the reasons why his teammates were happy to see him go at Oklahoma. It doesn't matter to me if RJ scores 30 points if he fails to run hard to get back on defense and fail to get in the painful crouch position where the thighs burn. Watch RJ on defense this year. In the past he has played straight up like you might do in Jr High school if you are a scrub. Other teammates suffer but not RJ. He is a star. Stars don't have to do such horrible things as play defense. Sure Ish Smith is a horrible defender as well but he does move his feet at least. Ish can't help it that most NBA guards are a foot taller and can shoot right over him from a jump stop position. Oh yes Detroit is really set up for success with the hand picked point guards in SVG's arsenal. When Detroit fans stop and take a look at some of the other point guards in the league they at least will not be as confident as SVG and his assistant coaches who coach the point guard on how to dominate the basketball and slack off on defense so fans won't notice. What if RJ and AD had to go through a training camp with Michael Jordan when he was in his prime. Steve Kerr said it was about the hardest thing he has ever done as a player just go through those practices when Jordan's team decided to press full court in regular season games. Would either of our star players ever have been allowed to wear a uniform on any Jordan or Zeke led teams? The answer is ..........

AD and RJ are part of the problem. Maybe some of our other players are not mentioned when it comes to the All Star team. But I don't like the All Star game itself and most people hate that whole star worship nonsense and make sure they don't even record the game on their DVR. And it is a complete joke that AD made the All Star team two years ago. He was cut from the meaningful teams such as the Olympic team. NBA players know how he plays and that he has the reputation of being a slow thinker and reactor on the defensive end. In other words AD has the reputation of being a slacker around the league. He plays hard when he wants to play hard not when the team needs him the most. And he just can't play in crunch time yet after 5 years.

Somehow SVG still has to try to promote RJ and AD and some people still bite on that propaganda. Let us watch AD before the games start this year to see if there are any signs at all that he has done any mental work before the game to prepare himself for battle. Will he be all laughs a giggles again after his dance in the circle? And RJ of course will need to be coddled a lot because he is so important. RJ will need to sit out the 2nd of all back to back games so he can keep up enough stamina to dribble out 20 of the 24 seconds on every Piston possession when he is in charge of the offense on those special games that he does play.

This is a new season. My account of our two Piston star players that are matchup problems each and every night is based on past history of Piston basketball games actually played. The head coach might create his game strategy based on a hope and prayer again and fans should lose respect for him if he does it. If Kennard and Ellenson are excluded and made out to be players with a contagious disease so SVG's bogus free agents can fill up all of the minutes, maybe the team will call for a mutiny and SVG will be forced to make the young players walk the plank to get rid of the problem like he did with Josh Smith. These are exciting times for all Piston fans. I credit SVG for bringing in some tough hard nosed players. All he needs to do is let them play ball and sit the slackers. I know SVG has to plan complicated strategy because he has two jobs instead of just being the head coach. He needs to play his big contract players so he can trade them. So get ready for more of RJ, AD, Jon Leuer and mix in a little Boban while you are at it. Boban is really tired after playing all that Euro ball. He sure looked to be one of the slowest players during those pressure packed games. What was going through SVG's mind when he signed Jon Leuer, Boban and Smith for so much money? He had a hard fight against himself which is something Joe Dumars was good at. SVG released Josh Smith because Joe made that bad deal. Was Josh Smith the worst big man on the team at the time or was AD and Greg Monroe the worst big men at the time? Yes I know SVG banks on potential of his young players with the exception of his young players this season and last season. If there was anytime when he should have thrown in the towel and played his young guys come hell or high water it was the last half of last season. But SVG didn't know that he didn't know so the owner has excused him for that blunder. God SVG makes a ton of money. This year he better earn it. Stay away from religion and politics this year SVG and concentrate on being objective with your basketball team.

Now good luck to the young players who are fighting a up hill battle for playing time.

[Oracle]

Secondly, while we could contend with 15 players that are hard working and team oriented, we'd likely get frustrated because they would be the Toronto Raptors. Good enough to be pesky, but not really good enough to beat the better teams. There's simply no substitute for TALENT!

Isn't this the exact kind of team that took us too the Finals in both 2004 and 2005 and ran off 7 or 8 ECF visits from 2002 to 2009?  I see some comparable pieces on the team right now to what we had during that stretch if used and coached properly.   

We shouldn't be solely relying on Reggie and Andre  the talent separation is that huge from the rest of the team Bradley and Harris aren't scrubs.

I was thinking the same thing when I first read your comment, but didn't say anything after I thought about it.

No, Harris & Bradley aren't scrubs, but they aren't that good either.

They aren't as good as any two of the top 4 teams in the conference, Wall & Beal, or anybody else.

That 2004 team was talent loaded with high picks and great talent in general!

[WTF]

Secondly, while we could contend with 15 players that are hard working and team oriented, we'd likely get frustrated because they would be the Toronto Raptors. Good enough to be pesky, but not really good enough to beat the better teams. There's simply no substitute for TALENT!

Isn't this the exact kind of team that took us too the Finals in both 2004 and 2005 and ran off 7 or 8 ECF visits from 2002 to 2009?  I see some comparable pieces on the team right now to what we had during that stretch if used and coached properly.   

We shouldn't be solely relying on Reggie and Andre  the talent separation is that huge from the rest of the team Bradley and Harris aren't scrubs.

[Oracle]

Sadly neither are Reggie nor Andre franchise pieces certainly this might sound strange to many but I think the team would be actually better off without either of them.   While Andre could be franchise he has to be willing to take his game to the next 2 levels because he's behind at least 2 levels.  As far as Reggie goes it is what it is and it likely won't change.   

Until Reggie starts looking at past greats at his position, the present great and decides he want to be great as well we'll keep getting the same BS out of him every game.  Reggie is not a next level players.


Give me 15 players like Bradley, Harris, Ellenson and Kennard with a competent coach and I say they'll be contending right away and a lot quicker than if I had 15 Reggie's and Andre's coach by this clown we have now (SVG)

You make two points that I would like to follow up on.

First, you're right Andre absolutely could be a franchise player and I also agree he's about two levels behind. Two seasons ago I thought he had hit the next level, and that would make this year the 2nd level, but he regressed.

Reggie isn't likely to make it to franchise level now, his health has put him in a place that all we can hope for is just short of all star level, but that would be good enough if he followed advice similar to what you laid out.

Secondly, while we could contend with 15 players that are hard working and team oriented, we'd likely get frustrated because they would be the Toronto Raptors. Good enough to be pesky, but not really good enough to beat the better teams. There's simply no substitute for TALENT!

My comments earlier were focused on where we are today. We don't have a team of those guys you desire and that leaves us hoping for either the two most talented to "Get It", or the coach to make good decisions... it's a tough life Bro

For once I'm glad we have the Lions 

[WTF]

There's a question that never gets asked on this board, and it's the reason most don't believe that Reggie & Drummond are, by far, our best players.

Who on this team poses a matchup problem almost every night?

Reggie & Drummond are the ONLY 2 players on this team, that when healthy, can't be stopped regularly.

Morris was also a bad matchup, while not nightly, there were nights where he was hard to stop and teams had a problem with him.

Ditto KCP, he could dominate, just not regularly like Reggie & Drummond can.

Without those two, this team isn't going very far. Bradley & Harris are good, but they aren't franchise pieces at all.

Sadly neither are Reggie nor Andre franchise pieces certainly this might sound strange to many but I think the team would be actually better off without either of them.   While Andre could be franchise he has to be willing to take his game to the next 2 levels because he's behind at least 2 levels.  As far as Reggie goes it is what it is and it likely won't change.   

Until Reggie starts looking at past greats at his position, the present great and decides he want to be great as well we'll keep getting the same BS out of him every game.  Reggie is not a next level players.


Give me 15 players like Bradley, Harris, Ellenson and Kennard with a competent coach and I say they'll be contending right away and a lot quicker than if I had 15 Reggie's and Andre's coach by this clown we have now (SVG)

[Oracle]

Oracle and Cool.  Posing a matchup problem is a good strategic question for a team, and it is something SVG seems to not care too much about, judging from his lineups.  It almost sounds like an ISO question, ala Melo, Marcus Morris and other ball dominant type players, but though SVG loves him some ISO, he does not seem disposed to exploiting matchups in real time.

1.  He rarely rides the hot hand, but helter-skelter style lets players bomb away whether hot or not, which would definitely undercut the matchup issue, which means you have to take advantage of the matchups by having the right players on the floor at the right time and in a position to take advantage of their matchup edge.

2. Nobody can matchup with Boban, probably moreso than Dre or Weggie, but does he give up more than he gets?  If this question is true for Boban, why is it not true for Weggie and Dre?  It can be argued by plus minus stats, that they may give up more than they get as well, undercutting the matchup argument.  It is true for them and they've proved that they MORE than hold their own and come out on the plus size(44 wins does it). Problem for Boban is that he's never done it before, but if used correctly, he's a big win! 

3. So is the matchup the most important thing, or is it team ball on the court which is dynamic switching on D, and smart passing to get the best matchup, or mismatch in the moment.  In this case, it can be argued that ball movement of the type that we could have gotten out of the Rubio trade would be better than a "get mine" type talent like Weggie.  It could be also argued, with stats to back it up, that Ish produced that type of movement that Weggie does not, but is Ish a matchup problem for most teams?  It is true that a pass travels faster than a dribble, and the ball can touch three players and find an open man quicker than someone dribbling and probing.  If you look at Andre, he rarely used his matchup talent to take advantage of smaller players because he would fadeaway hook shot, instead of go at the defender, chest-to-chest to take advantage of his strength, his height, his leaping ability, etc., perhaps from fear of getting fouled, thus perhaps negating his presumed matchup advantage.  And so on. Good point, team ball and movement is a SOLID way to create mismatches in one form or another, but it's limited as I'll show later.

4. It might be that this matchup idea is a proposition that is less nuanced than the reality of the ball on the court with 10 players who pass and dribble to create matchup mismatches on the floor in the heat of the moment.  Necessary, but not sufficient.

If you look at the successful teams today, the goal is to win as many matchups as possible, the team that wins the most matchups is crowned as champion. Team ball isn't something good teams need to talk about, it's taken for granted that's the way they will play. The fact that we discuss it so much pretty much tells you where we are.

Team ball alone can only get you so far, at some point the talent has to come close to or exceed the opponents talent(Look no further than the last finals).

However, team ball is the best option for us if Reggie/Dre are not the force they were two seasons ago, but we'll see how that goes.

IMO, Ish is 10 times the PG some think Bradley or Kennard will ever be, and any hope of team ball without Reggie should go through him. 

But team ball is built on chemistry, and we have none on this team yet. It's harder to get than people realize and some here think it will magically appear. I hope so, but I've rarely seen it happen, but it did in Boston with their big 3 and Rondo at an amazing pace, so there is some hope.

[BallinD]

Oracle and Cool.  Posing a matchup problem is a good strategic question for a team, and it is something SVG seems to not care too much about, judging from his lineups.  It almost sounds like an ISO question, ala Melo, Marcus Morris and other ball dominant type players, but though SVG loves him some ISO, he does not seem disposed to exploiting matchups in real time.

1.  He rarely rides the hot hand, but helter-skelter style lets players bomb away whether hot or not, which would definitely undercut the matchup issue, which means you have to take advantage of the matchups by having the right players on the floor at the right time and in a position to take advantage of their matchup edge.

2. Nobody can matchup with Boban, probably moreso than Dre or Weggie, but does he give up more than he gets?  If this question is true for Boban, why is it not true for Weggie and Dre?  It can be argued by plus minus stats, that they may give up more than they get as well, undercutting the matchup argument.    

3. So is the matchup the most important thing, or is it team ball on the court which is dynamic switching on D, and smart passing to get the best matchup, or mismatch in the moment.  In this case, it can be argued that ball movement of the type that we could have gotten out of the Rubio trade would be better than a "get mine" type talent like Weggie.  It could be also argued, with stats to back it up, that Ish produced that type of movement that Weggie does not, but is Ish a matchup problem for most teams?  It is true that a pass travels faster than a dribble, and the ball can touch three players and find an open man quicker than someone dribbling and probing.  If you look at Andre, he rarely used his matchup talent to take advantage of smaller players because he would fadeaway hook shot, instead of go at the defender, chest-to-chest to take advantage of his strength, his height, his leaping ability, etc., perhaps from fear of getting fouled, thus perhaps negating his presumed matchup advantage.  And so on.

4. It might be that this matchup idea is a proposition that is less nuanced than the reality of the ball on the court with 10 players who pass and dribble to create matchup mismatches on the floor in the heat of the moment.  

There's a question that never gets asked on this board, and it's the reason most don't believe that Reggie & Drummond are, by far, our best players.

Who on this team poses a matchup problem almost every night?

Reggie & Drummond are the ONLY 2 players on this team, that when healthy, can't be stopped regularly.

Morris was also a bad matchup, while not nightly, there were nights where he was hard to stop and teams had a problem with him.

Ditto KCP, he could dominate, just not regularly like Reggie & Drummond can.

Without those two, this team isn't going very far. Bradley & Harris are good, but they aren't franchise pieces at all.

[Oracle]

I guess we see different things, but if you're right, there must be a massive conspiracy by the NBA to hide all of these great things you see in Harris & Bradley, two dudes that have been in the league for some time and never sniffed a single all star game, but they make you top list. I'll concede that they're underrated, but they aren't that good either.

Well, all I can say is that games are coming, and I expect to see the good players step up in the weak east. 

I only see one player beyond Dre & RJ that could be a matchup problem, and that's only if he can get his act together... Stanley Johnson. He's got all of the tools but he's put them together like a Frankenstein Monster, the pieces don't fit yet.

Sadly, unless Kennard blows up, he's going to be able to open a wood supply shop from the splinters in his ass. SVG has telegraphed damn near every excuse in the book for why he's not going to play Kennard, and if we're winning with the vets, you can take that to the bank.

[cool breeze]

There's a question that never gets asked on this board, and it's the reason most don't believe that Reggie & Drummond are, by far, our best players.

Who on this team poses a matchup problem almost every night?

Reggie & Drummond are the ONLY 2 players on this team, that when healthy, can't be stopped regularly.

Morris was also a bad matchup, while not nightly, there were nights where he was hard to stop and teams had a problem with him.

Ditto KCP, he could dominate, just not regularly like Reggie & Drummond can.

Without those two, this team isn't going very far. Bradley & Harris are good, but they aren't franchise pieces at all.

Oracle I am not so sure your statement is correct relating to RJ and AD being the only two players who can't be stopped by NBA opponents. RJ was on fire two years ago in the last 3 minutes of regular season games. In playoff situations opponents would zero in on RJ and make him an even bigger liability on defense and would create a defense to stop Reggie in crunch time if the Pistons depended on such a lame offensive system next time around. Last season RJ was a liability on both ends of the floor. In match ups with really good teams when RJ was at his best, the Pistons were an easy out featuring him as the one man show. But he was amazing with his ability to get shots up against pressure around the rim two years ago. Based on last season, RJ should be starting at ground zero and be forced to earn every minute he plays. But my bet is that SVG will base RJ's playing time on his performances two years ago which isn't fair to the other players who can play point guard. One reporter who pushes RJ's upside decided to poke holes in the idea that Bradley would be the best choice at starting point guard. It is true that early in Bradley's career one could say he needed to improve his ball handling. But over the past 3 years, Avery has become an outstanding ball handler at least from the time that I have watched him play. Bradley is a better all around athlete and has a higher basketball IQ. He well on both ends of the floor too. That is what this team needs out of a floor leader. We no longer need hot dogs.

I never knew that on a night to night basis AD was a NBA player that caused match up problems when he was on offense. He sure could get his share of offensive rebounds but AD has never been a solid go to type offensive player unless a team wants to depend on his 8 foot baseline hook shot. AD is much like RJ with the exception that RJ did two years ago show some offensive talent in critical moments. AD has not been able to crack the lineup in crunch time yet after 5 seasons. He is such a liability on defense and at the foul line that AD just cannot be trusted by even SVG who has blinders on. Talk about matchup problems relating to AD. Other teams always have the advantage when their center goes up against AD. Two examples I have in my memory bank are Davis and Gortat. Why AD always looks like a pick up player on a 10 day contract when he plays Gortat is amazing to me. Gortat just knows AD cannot guard any center in the league who has half a brain. He always gets whatever he wants against AD. But the worst matchup problem of all for any Piston player is AD against Anthony Davis. I swear that Davis could average 85 points a game if his team allowed Davis to play an entire game against the Pistons. He can drive on AD whenever he feels like it and get a layup. He can make that turn around move 6 feet from the basket and have AD on his heals. He can consistently hit his jump shot from free throw line and 3 feet back. AD never extends to the free throw line against him because he knows that Anthony Davis will then drive on him.

Based on last season at least I learned that AD hadn't learned one damn thing about playing defense the right way. Now he is 30 pounds lighter but will he play smarter? Is that possible? To me that is what AD needs to prove to Piston fans. He needs to show that he is not a low basketball IQ player on defense. And AD should use most of his energy on the defensive end where he is needed most. He should not try to average double figures unless those points come from his amazing offensive rebounding skill set.

Who will be the bigger match up problem for opposing teams this season?
Not AD or RJ but rather Avery Bradley and Tobias Harris if they can stay healthy. Those two players to me are gifted physically and mentally and they are in amazing shape. If Bradley doesn't end up playing point guard by December I will be convinced that SVG is serious about winning. It will be about playing out his bad contracts. It could be that SVG is not dumb and perhaps he will insist on both guard positions being used to initiate the offense. There is no reason why this team needs a designated point guard. The team has the talent at the point guard position to take turns in that role of dribbling the ball up the court and making the first pass. Hopefully the days of RJ dribbling up the court and shooting it or passing it to AD are over. I hope to see action on both wings with screening and cutting and the ball going to the open man at the right time. I have my doubts that RJ can do that? And there are bigger doubts that RJ can hold his own on defense.

I wonder who will guard Love on this Piston team now that he will be playing center. Will it be Stanley Johnson? Leuer and Harris had their issues playing Love when he was at power forward. AD will get his ass kicked trying to play Love. So who starts for the Pistons when they play Cleveland?

[Oracle]

There's a question that never gets asked on this board, and it's the reason most don't believe that Reggie & Drummond are, by far, our best players.

Who on this team poses a matchup problem almost every night?

Reggie & Drummond are the ONLY 2 players on this team, that when healthy, can't be stopped regularly.

Morris was also a bad matchup, while not nightly, there were nights where he was hard to stop and teams had a problem with him.

Ditto KCP, he could dominate, just not regularly like Reggie & Drummond can.

Without those two, this team isn't going very far. Bradley & Harris are good, but they aren't franchise pieces at all.

[BallinD]

So here we are at the point last season where we knew Reggie was not ready, but we were counting on Stan and his staff to gingerly get him ready, to go ASAP.  Now the new ASAP this year is the beginning of the season.  Can they do it?  Should they even try???

Or should we try think out of the box this time.  Let's try it as a thought experiment.

Can we see what a lineup looks like with Avery on the ball (pg) and Kennard, Bullock or even Galloway off the ball. (no more of this SJ as shooting Guard please  )  

Can we see if between Bradley and Kennard, who both are set up as secondary ball handlers, this duo can work the magic of two secondary ball handlers are better than one ball-dominant gimp???

You're just unlucky!!!

A strained adductor muscle or tendon can be a tenacious, enduring injury, causing persistent pain in the inner thigh. If a person feels pain high up near the groin, he or she has injured the tendon of one of the four primary adductor muscles: the gracilis, adductor longus, adductor brevis, or adductor magnus. If the pain is toward the mid-thigh, the muscle fibers are injured. Pain in both places indicates damage to both tendon and muscle fibers. 

Crap like this happens when you're over compensating for another injury, his knee problem.

But I agree with most here, SVG isn't just unlucky he's sort of bad at a lot of things, too many of them to be considered one of the best coaches in this league. I'd rate him about average.

[Oracle]

You're just unlucky!!!

A strained adductor muscle or tendon can be a tenacious, enduring injury, causing persistent pain in the inner thigh. If a person feels pain high up near the groin, he or she has injured the tendon of one of the four primary adductor muscles: the gracilis, adductor longus, adductor brevis, or adductor magnus. If the pain is toward the mid-thigh, the muscle fibers are injured. Pain in both places indicates damage to both tendon and muscle fibers. 

Crap like this happens when you're over compensating for another injury, his knee problem.

But I agree with most here, SVG isn't just unlucky he's sort of bad at a lot of things, too many of them to be considered one of the best coaches in this league. I'd rate him about average.

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