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SVG "It will be hard keeping Luke off the floor" & Pro athletes entry into politics

Post  cool breeze on Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:26 pm

Yes but somehow he will figure out a way. It might take long hours and nights away from his dog but SVG will figure out a way.

Possibly the way to keep Luke on the floor would be to play him. Forgot that well maybe SVG could put a string on his first finger to remember such complicated things that puzzle him so as head coach of the Pistons.

How about starting Avery Bradley at point guard Big Stan? Then you would open up a spot at 2 guard for Luke. Are you too busy finding the political monsters on the political stage and outing them??? Is that part of your job description? How do you have time for that when your team blew up in your face last season?

But the biggest problem that SVG must have been pondering all summer long is how to keep AD "engaged". Remember not to offend our center with 5 years experience who is making $22 plus million this season so use that word "engaged". Yes he needs to be more engaged so that is what I will tell the press. I would never tell the truth of course. AD played like a true slacker last season but SVG is very smart and will not tell the truth because in SVG's mind, bigger worries might be created as maybe the press would brand him as an insensitive monster. Yes SVG must be politically correct. He can only be blunt when it comes to his comments on national politics. It is important to comment on national politics as the players today are very sensitive to national issues.

It is time for all of us to support the local high school team and forget about what the rich football and basketball pros are thinking about other than their own sport. People are turned off. How did things get so twisted? Now everyone is excited about what will the players do before the games start. Will they show their disgust for the country and morn the last election results? Will they lock arms together while standing and look brave? This excites me about as much as Andre Drummond dancing in the pre game Tom Gores festivities but at least AD has a smile on his face. I would pick AD dancing over the doom and gloom serious commitment to what is perceived as right and wrong in todays politically correct world as demonstrated by grown men who lock arms wondering why am I doing this? Maybe their grandfathers died fighting for their country in WW2 or Korea. Are you conflicted? Could somebody possibly a guy named George Soros be pulling your strings? He has done this same type of thing in other countries to create a revolution. Money can create powerful trends. Is what is going on now much like Lenon's creation? The co creator of the revolution in Russia many years ago thought of similar activities for the masses to embrace. He went around talking about democracy ( which meant to hime that you vote one time only for his style of government) and to make that happen true followers must seek out the individual monsters and destroy them.Kill off enough monsters and you can create a totalitarian government where one person can decide everything for you. Of course the leader will be "fair". And then along came Stalin the biggest mass murderer of all who was perhaps the best at seeking out the monsters who he thought opposed him and sent them off for quick liquidation. Those followers of political correctness got the opposite of what they were dreaming about. Although the Lions now might have the best team in years if I owned season tickets, it would be tempting to tear up those tickets and go to high school football games. All of the fun has been taken out of professional sports with the exception of professional individual sports. They don't get guaranteed contracts so they have to concentrate on being the best athletes they can be from event to event. No time for them to ponder what is right or wrong with the world. Since when has anything in life been fair? Who is right and who is wrong? There are always three sides to every story depending on who makes the statement. Should the outcome of all this kneeling be that the players no longer get guaranteed contracts and have to perform each game on an individual contract with the owner? The premise could be that they have too much time on their hands.

Normal people who have to work hard for a living and will never feel what it is like to be rich like the football and basketball players who are now all worked up with politics, what is left for us to do? Most of us watch the NFL or the NBA to escape the pressures we experience in our day to day world. Do we now have to take on more when we tune in to watch a game? I wonder how many professional athletes are being pressured or threatened if they fail to take a knee or stand. Do I care about what Labron thinks about the President or the governor of his State? Who gives a crap what he might think? I read Labron's book and loved it. James wrote about real experiences that happened on and off the court growing up in a tough world. He is a high school graduate much like many actors who think they need to reveal their inner most feelings on things other than what they do best. Do I know what Zeke is thinking? No Zeke is a super smart man who knows enough to keep his thoughts about the world private. Why turn off people from your sport when you don't need to do it?

If Labron really cared about less fortunate people than himself he would not be commenting on the flag. Honoring the flag is to honor all military people who gave their lives for the USA. All races are represented in that arena where you wear a uniform and promise to make the biggest sacrifice you can make for other Americans. Millions have made that sacrifice including thousands of volunteers from the State of Michigan in the Civil War fighting for someone's freedom. Now people want to make the ceremony about something other than that. While Labron is talking special forces soldiers from all races are climbing the mountains and risking their lives thinking that they are doing their duty to their country. You can't compare their sacrifice with anything else.

Labron should hold a press conference along with all of the other pro athletes who want to be leaders in something other than their sport and say this.  All teenagers beware because you walk a thin line in today's world. I care about you and beg that you do not cause another teen aged pregnancy and then try to raise that kid with no education or experience to guide you. Dropping out of school, getting pregnant, and trying to survive in a home with insane parents who only care about the next drug experience has nothing to do with national politics. Those unforced errors made in the teen years destroy any chance of having a good life. Why don't the pro players start talking about that more instead of placing the blame on the government? Taking a knee at a sporting event doesn't tackle squat in the real world. The political world is not the real world. That is a place for cheap talk where Labron can get his mug on the camera to get more hero worship.

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We Could Have Been There, We can still Get there

Post  BallinD on Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:49 pm

WTF: Getting From Point A to Point B

We passed on Myles Turner and Devin Booker.  Could we have got a future pick from a package of Moose and Josh?  What could we get for Dre and SJ?, OKC got Paul George for less.  Weggie seems like a perpetually broken toy we have outgrown.  Can we throw him away for a bag of chips?

I like the "build around Kennard and Ellensen model," maybe SJ added to that, but so far I may have been his biggest critic over the years, though I like his potential to be 3 n D.  He's decent from the corner 3, so there is that.  

Last year's peak was the Ish Run, as improbable as it was, and the shame of it is that to this day people discount what was brewing there.  Potential Elitism w/o Weggie.  Think about that!

As to Point A to B, not sure if that's the main point for Gores, to get to the next level.  Or is it more to be respected at this level, among his peers within the also-ran ranks?  Doesn't he know we're the Pistons...we swing for the fences.


WTF wrote:
I rather be watching a team full of lottery picks trying to figure it out than watching the current players we currently have doing so.   Not like we haven't seen unwatchable season with this team already both in the past and now currently.   If you think this team is more exciting than watching the Teal Years I'll say your are insane because at least we were watching Hill, Dumars, Houston, Hunter, Stackhouse, and others at least putting up efforts.  

I can't remember comments about laziness, effort, lack of IQ during the Teal Years.  


If we get the right coach, coaching staff, general manager, president, and draft the right potential next great players this team will be more than exciting to watch.  Who knows if can't draft the next Zeke, Hill, Dumars, or Rodman but boy if we do how exciting would that be.  We should at least try.

And even we don't rebuild the one certain thing is SVG and his entire staff from top to bottom need to be outed ASAP if we're set on this current group of players getting us anywhere.
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New Pistons Motto

Post  BallinD on Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:33 pm

Courtesy of Van Gundy Slappy Bob Beyer: "Communication Eliminates Confusion."


Play Me!! Or Else!!
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TANK YOU VERY MUCH

Post  WTF on Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:03 pm

lemonpen wrote:Be forewarned.   Imagine the Pistons putting up performances like the Tigers are right now, except season after season.  
One word,      ..................        Unwatchable.


I'm okay with ugly an ugly season or two to get better if that what's it takes.   Right now we're spinning our wheels going nowhere thinking if we keep tweaking with certain parts of this hoopty hoping that we'll eventually get somewhere driving it to where we need to be.   We're stuck at Point A with no chance of getting to Point B.

I rather be watching a team full of lottery picks trying to figure it out than watching the current players we currently have doing so.   Not like we haven't seen unwatchable season with this team already both in the past and now currently.   If you think this team is more exciting than watching the Teal Years I'll say your are insane because at least we were watching Hill, Dumars, Houston, Hunter, Stackhouse, and others at least putting up efforts.  

I can't remember comments about laziness, effort, lack of IQ during the Teal Years.  


If we get the right coach, coaching staff, general manager, president, and draft the right potential next great players this team will be more than exciting to watch.  Who knows if can't draft the next Zeke, Hill, Dumars, or Rodman but boy if we do how exciting would that be.  We should at least try.

And even we don't rebuild the one certain thing is SVG and his entire staff from top to bottom need to be outed ASAP if we're set on this current group of players getting us anywhere.
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Whoa, Back Up

Post  lemonpen on Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:53 pm

Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:I'm not discounting that Billups improved while in Detroit; in fact, that's my perception subjectively. But the numbers don't bear out the popular perception that he makes a big leap once in Detroit from the level at which he'd been playing in Minnesota.
Whose popular conception? Nobody discussing this has made any such assertion that I'm aware of, so I'm not quite sure where this is coming from. Massive changes in fortune don't even require big leaps in numbers anyway, it's how the numbers are obtained in the context of team play.

The facts are clear, he was basically a SG masquerading  as a PG until LB turned him into a master floor general. Another part of that equation was LB's transformation of RIP into a player that complemented CB. That combination didn't work nearly as well until LB.

In addition, his offense was designed to use as much of the clock as possible searching for the best shot, something that forced them to be ready for playoff style basketball.

Larry Brown was a true genius for several reasons, but one of the biggest is fully knowing what he needed to make the team work. It wasn't an accident that he went after Sheed, he saw the missing ingredient and landed it. He may not have known how well it would work, but he knew it was what was needed.

Not referring to you, but it amazes me that people that don't understand coaching tend to believe that it's all accidental, that they somehow just get lucky of something, but it's hard work and study. It reminds me of how kids think that players just wake up and play, not understanding the tremendous amount of work that goes into it.

Notes: I see we resigned Beno... oh, can you smell the mediocracy. I agree, I don't like our ceiling, and that's a very good reason that we need to retool.

Beno ??
4 point guards under contract ??
Maybe you and Wise are on to something with your suspicions of RJAX being a goner B4 the season begins.
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AD's Shotblocking

Post  lemonpen on Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:25 pm

Murph wrote:Exactly.  We know for a fact that Drummond can block 1.9 bpg, because he already did it.

If I were SVG, or better yet, if I were a good coach, I'd figure out how to get Drummond to block 2 shots a game again.

Ya know, shot blocking is rarely the skill that makes a great defender great. Block shot artists may only reach 1 for every 6 or 7 times they surrender rebounding position.
I would like to see Dre display improved foot work. The kind of foot work and strength that prevents other guys from getting to their spots. To me, the best D makes an offensive guy pass the ball instead of shoot.

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Tank Lovers

Post  lemonpen on Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:55 pm

Be forewarned.   Imagine the Pistons putting up performances like the Tigers are right now, except season after season.  
One word,      ..................        Unwatchable.
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Ummmmmmm

Post  lemonpen on Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:50 pm

Murph wrote:Usually, I find your posts to be so long winded and tedious, that I don't even read them, let alone reply to them.  But I found your last post to be so irritating that I just couldn't resist.

1.  I agree SVG sucks as a coach, GM and President.

2.  Obviously LB greatly improved Billups' PG skills.  LB was in C-Bills ear constantly.  And Billups gradually improved until he became one of the best PGs in the league, and Finals MVP.  I credit Brown with much of Billups' success.

3.  Laimbeer was drafted in the 3rd round at #65.  He would not have even been drafted by today's rules.  Under Chuck Daly, Laimbeer became an All Star and the best rebounder of the 80's.  You can credit Zeke if you want, but I'll credit the HOF Coach Daly, who was universally loved and respected by his players.

4.  Ben Wallace was an undrafted journeyman, on his 3rd team in 5 years.  He was playing PF in Orlando.  LB turned him into a four time All Star, four time Defensive Player of the Year, two time NBA rebounding leader, one time blocked shot leader and NBA Champion.

5.  I have not doubt that under the right coach, Drummond could realize his athletic potential and become a star, if not a HOFer.

Ouch. Biting my tongue, giggling like a school girl, and nodding affirmatively.
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Lions

Post  lemonpen on Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:50 am

Maybe I missed it.  Did anyone think the final play was idiotic considering we had no timeouts or time to line up if the play were stopped.   Doesn't the rest of the league throw to the end zone in those situations.  Throw for a score or throw it away, preserving time for another shot.

Only the Leo's.

Edit:  I'm feeling like we should forget about winning the division, and set our sights a bit higher.  Not saying our talent is deep enough to be best in conference but it might be time to think on that level.


Last edited by lemonpen on Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:31 am

WTF wrote:
Murph wrote:Exactly.  We know for a fact that Drummond can block 1.9 bpg, because he already did it.

If I were SVG, or better yet, if I were a good coach, I'd figure out how to get Drummond to block 2 shots a game again.

How much of that was due to being a fluke or simply being an unknown defensively.   Once players figured him out they started slicing the middle of our defense like butter.  Dre is still fundamentally lazy defensively and it was a matter of time those numbers would dip oppose to going up as he progresses with experience.

Lets not remain fooled that Andre is getting by quite a bit on physical ability and not smarts when it comes to both rebounding and shot blocking.  While at times his numbers might look impressive or even respectable the truth is they should be at a higher level.   His game lack both intensity and intelligence and that isn't a matter of SVG shortcomings but those belonging to Dre.  

Looking at Dre physical ability he should be a top shot blocker consistently, he should be changing games with his defense.  We should already be in awe of his ability to shut down the middle of the floor but we're not.


Whatever.

My point was very simple. Chuck Daly and Larry Brown maximized the potential of their players, and in some cases coached their players to be better than anyone ever dreamed they could be (Laimbeer and Wallace).

SVG OTOH, does not maximize the potential of his players (Drummond).
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Good recap!

Post  Oracle on Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:36 pm

BallinD wrote:SVG: The big guy talked about health, and music to my ears, he actually talked about passing several, several times during the presser.  Did not hear a word about defense, except when praising AB. So in a way that was encouraging, cause Defense is usualy his crutch to say why we can't be good, and he almost never talks about passing, cause his plays don't normally require it  facepalm . It appears Weggie is still not close to ready yet, but I regard that as a mixed blessing,
unless we reprise last year's debacle, (which I doubt.)  No word on Dre's Free Throws or any other debby downer type of issue.


Health:
Knee issues: Galloway and Weggie.
Dre.  Ankle

Goals:

"Put together the best roster we could while maintaining and improving our financial flexibility keeping our financial situation such that we can continue to add to our roster and make moves and things."  This is a joke, right?? Yup, it's a joke, but nobody's laughing

But some of his other comments were encouraging:

1.Improve our roster with tough, competitive guys...shout out to AB and AT, LG

2. Improve our three-point shooting...shout out to AB and AT, LK and LG

3. We need more guys who can make plays as secondary ball handlers and things like that, so the entire weight of our offense is not on our point guards.  Duhhh, but maybe he gets it??


\"Its going to be hard to keep Luke off the floor.  Great! This is great because it means that Luke is showing some really good stuff in practice to SVG and the vets! If this is true, we have a lot to look forward to.
\Moreland.  "He's an outstanding passer for a big"  (Mo passing comments)
\We see a real maturity in Stanley, he's ready to go.  His mindset is different.  I think he is really ready to go this year and will play a big role. I hope so, but I don't really believe it yet. Let's see how that plays out and how much leash SVG gives him.
\Henry Ellensen has made great strides, he's much stronger.  I think he will push very hard to get significant minutes this year Translation: I don't expect to play him much!

\Reggie is coming back healthier... I think it might take a while to get him back to full speed, but when we can get him there, we know what he is capable of.  Conditioning is an issue for him...hasn't it always been the case??  Followup question?? Conditioning is something I don't expect to change, as a matter of fact, it's lower on my list because we've seen that we can be effective with his limited conditioning. It's the other stuff that I'm worried about.

I think Tobias can really play, he led us in scoring last year and he is somebody who can be our go-to guy. Love it! It'll be interesting to see how his production goes under two conditions. 1st is the return of ball dominant Reggie, and 2nd, how his production changes when starting against more than 2nd unit scrubs.

"Boban is a tough guy to guard and we have got to take advantage of that."  Then show and prove, SVG! That's right, show us!
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From one Big Dawg $275M to Another $3.5 B

Post  BallinD on Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:11 pm

LeBron:  "U Bum"

POTUS: "U son of a b!tch, or at least some of your friends are...  You should be fired!!"

LeBron: "Well then, the enemy (Steph the Chef) of my enemy (POTUS) is my friend."  

POTUS:  "But i don't have any friends."

LeBron:  "That much is obvious, U Bum."



P.S.: POTUS is an acronym for Punkazz Overgrown Turd U Suck!!!!
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:24 pm

Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:I'm not discounting that Billups improved while in Detroit; in fact, that's my perception subjectively. But the numbers don't bear out the popular perception that he makes a big leap once in Detroit from the level at which he'd been playing in Minnesota.
Whose popular conception? Nobody discussing this has made any such assertion that I'm aware of, so I'm not quite sure where this is coming from. Massive changes in fortune don't even require big leaps in numbers anyway, it's how the numbers are obtained in the context of team play.

The facts are clear, he was basically a SG masquerading  as a PG until LB turned him into a master floor general. Another part of that equation was LB's transformation of RIP into a player that complemented CB. That combination didn't work nearly as well until LB.

In addition, his offense was designed to use as much of the clock as possible searching for the best shot, something that forced them to be ready for playoff style basketball.

Larry Brown was a true genius for several reasons, but one of the biggest is fully knowing what he needed to make the team work. It wasn't an accident that he went after Sheed, he saw the missing ingredient and landed it. He may not have known how well it would work, but he knew it was what was needed.

Not referring to you, but it amazes me that people that don't understand coaching tend to believe that it's all accidental, that they somehow just get lucky of something, but it's hard work and study. It reminds me of how kids think that players just wake up and play, not understanding the tremendous amount of work that goes into it.

Notes: I see we resigned Beno... oh, can you smell the mediocracy. I agree, I don't like our ceiling, and that's a very good reason that we need to retool.

The Larry Brown effect is very subjective because it is always the basketball players themselves who win or lose or play basketball the right way or the wrong way. One thing is for certain. Larry Brown is in a different league from NBA coaches like Stan Van Gundy. Many have lost respect for SVG because he is more of a political commentator than a basketball coach. SVG just doesn't have the skill set that Larry Brown has always had. SVG has been corrupted by the style of the NBA where coaches don't actually do much to really coach or improve players in that a league. Just show up for the practice sessions and pre game walk around. Set your rotations before training camp even begins. Show up for the games and act excited. Then go to the post game press conference collect the pay check and go home.

Unlike SVG, for most of Brown's career he was always fully engaged. Last season Brown would have scrapped the 4 out 1 in offense very quickly and would have made players like Harris so much better. Most likely if Brown had no other options, Beno would have been the starting point guard. Instead after Jackson returned, SVG forgot all about Beno who had played great before being rejected by SVG.

Now let us go back in time for the real story. Imagine how effective Larry Brown could have been if he hadn't decided shortly after moving to Detroit that he had made a big mistake. He wanted to be home with this family shortly after training camp ended. Larry arrived in Detroit a basket case because of his health issues. Billups credits Larry Brown for helping him get better at least the first year that Brown coached the Pistons. Brown's second season was a farce. He tried as hard as he could to get the Bill Davidson to fire him. He was not speaking with either Dumars or Davidson. He fell asleep on the bench at a Suns game I attended in Phoenix. In that game, the assistant coaches were running all of the timeouts. Brown was not well. He was on pain meds and it got progressively worse after his first season. His coaching in the playoffs in both seasons was below par especially the series in his first season against the Nets and specifically in the 5th game at the Palace. The Nets players were laughing at Larry Brown in the timeouts because all of the Nets big men had fouled out giving Detroit a huge advantage yet Brown had a beef with Memo and decided that Corless and Darvin Ham would be Detroit's two big men in the overtime after Billups hit a 3 point shot at the buzzer to take the game into overtime. None of the players on the Piston roster were happy with Brown's coaching in that game. Billups made the best comment when he said that the Pistons lost in the overtime because he had nobody to pass the ball to inside because our big men were sitting on the bench but not because of foul trouble. Billups was clearly pissed off at Larry Brown. Richard Jefferson who was with the Nets at the time talked about that game the following summer as he held a basketball camp here. He said all of the Nets players were saying "Thanks Larry" referring to Brown's insistence on not playing two good big men he had on the bench ready to play in that overtime. No instead Williamson and Ham played making it impossible for the Pistons to win. I am surprised many Piston fans don't recall this game. Everyone I knew at the time were as pissed off as Billups at Larry Brown and his small ball nonsense. The next game at the Nets, the players took over strategy for the Pistons. What happened in their team meeting would be very interesting but Billups is too much of a gentleman to talk about how the players reacted after that game 5 loss.

Larry Brown did one great thing that I appreciated when he coached for the Pistons that really helped Detroit win that championship and go to the finals the following season. Brown had a good relationship with the volatile unpredictable Rasheed Wallace. Brown came through and was perhaps the only coach in America who could get the most out of Wallace after he came to Detroit. And I do not discount Brown's impact on the Piston guards. I think Hamilton got a lot out of Larry Brown's coaching. Billups had established himself as a top tier point guard in his last season with the Timberwolves. The Timberwolves made a huge mistake letting him go. But Brown has always been a great coach with guards. He was an extremely smart point guard himself.

There is no way Brown would have tolerated the Piston's two point guards last season. Both clearly played the wrong way giving very little on the defensive end and failing to share the ball or organize the half court offense properly on almost every possession. It is unfortunate Brown couldn't have been calling the shots last season instead of Stan Van Gundy. It was Stan and his assistant coach who created the point guard ball hog shoot first or pass to AD offense. No deviation to this game plan all season long. And it was a very long dull season for all Piston fans who love watching real basketball. I could not imagine Larry Brown watching our Piston team for more than one minute last season before saying is this coach a complete idiot? In the end it was Stan Van Gundy who allowed all of the stupidity to flourish. I expect we will see more of it this season. This is SVG"s strategy and the way the team must practice. Hey just throw the ball out to my point guards and let them do their thing. It worked that one season we got the 8th playoff spot so why change anything? It was as if SVG did almost nothing to help change how the team played basketball all season long. But he was good at making political statements. Politics have now entered all professional team sports. So we have a highly trained politically orientated head coach. WOW! And he wasn't fired?? I am actually shocked that SVG was not fired and no changes at all were made to his coaching staff. Good luck players. Better tell your coaching to stay home.

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Oracle/ Billups

Post  Sparma on Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:01 pm

You seem to have missed my point then. Oh well. I'd like to move on.

Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:I'm not hearing a refutation of my interpretation of the numbers, but we nevertheless seem to have somewhat different perspectives here. So be it.
Hard to refute something nobody is talking about. Our discussion had nothing to do with the numbers, they aren't relevant to the argument is what I was trying to convey to you, but if that's what you wanted to add, thanks.
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Media Day...No Tough Questions or Real Questions, but there were Hints??

Post  BallinD on Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:51 pm

SVG: The big guy talked about health, and music to my ears, he actually talked about passing several, several times during the presser.  Did not hear a word about defense, except when praising AB. So in a way that was encouraging, cause Defense is usualy his crutch to say why we can't be good, and he almost never talks about passing, cause his plays don't normally require it  facepalm . It appears Weggie is still not close to ready yet, but I regard that as a mixed blessing,
unless we reprise last year's debacle, (which I doubt.) No word on Dre's Free Throws or any other debby downer type of issue.


Health:
Knee issues: Galloway and Weggie.
Dre.  Ankle

Goals:

"Put together the best roster we could while maintaining and improving our financial flexibility keeping our financial situation such that we can continue to add to our roster and make moves and things."  This is a joke, right??

But some of his other comments were encouraging:


1.Improve our roster with tough, competitive guys...shout out to AB and AT, LG

2. Improve our three-point shooting...shout out to AB and AT, LK and LG

3. We need more guys who can make plays as secondary ball handlers and things like that, so the entire weight of our offense is not on our point guards.  Duhhh, but maybe he gets it??


\"Its going to be hard to keep Luke off the floor.  Great!
\Moreland.  "He's an outstanding passer for a big"  (Mo passing comments)
\We see a real maturity in Stanley, he's ready to go.  His mindset is different.  I think he is really ready to go this year and will play a big role.
\Henry Ellensen has made great strides, he's much stronger.  I think he will push very hard to get significant minutes this year

\Reggie is coming back healthier... I think it might take a while to get him back to full speed, but when we can get him there, we know what he is capable of.  Conditioning is an issue for him...hasn't it always been the case??  Followup question??

I think Tobias can really play, he led us in scoring last year and he is somebody who can be our go-to guy. Love it!

"Boban is a tough guy to guard and we have got to take advantage of that."
 Then show and prove, SVG!


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Sparma

Post  Oracle on Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:27 pm

Sparma wrote:I'm not hearing a refutation of my interpretation of the numbers, but we nevertheless seem to have somewhat different perspectives here. So be it.
Hard to refute something nobody is talking about. Our discussion had nothing to do with the numbers, they aren't relevant to the argument is what I was trying to convey to you, but if that's what you wanted to add, thanks.
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Oracle/ Billups

Post  Sparma on Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:52 pm

I'm not hearing a refutation of my interpretation of the numbers, but we nevertheless seem to have somewhat different perspectives here. So be it.

Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:I'm not discounting that Billups improved while in Detroit; in fact, that's my perception subjectively. But the numbers don't bear out the popular perception that he makes a big leap once in Detroit from the level at which he'd been playing in Minnesota.
Whose popular conception? Nobody discussing this has made any such assertion that I'm aware of, so I'm not quite sure where this is coming from. Massive changes in fortune don't even require big leaps in numbers anyway, it's how the numbers are obtained in the context of team play.

The facts are clear, he was basically a SG masquerading  as a PG until LB turned him into a master floor general. Another part of that equation was LB's transformation of RIP into a player that complemented CB. That combination didn't work nearly as well until LB.

In addition, his offense was designed to use as much of the clock as possible searching for the best shot, something that forced them to be ready for playoff style basketball.

Larry Brown was a true genius for several reasons, but one of the biggest is fully knowing what he needed to make the team work. It wasn't an accident that he went after Sheed, he saw the missing ingredient and landed it. He may not have known how well it would work, but he knew it was what was needed.

Not referring to you, but it amazes me that people that don't understand coaching tend to believe that it's all accidental, that they somehow just get lucky of something, but it's hard work and study. It reminds me of how kids think that players just wake up and play, not understanding the tremendous amount of work that goes into it.

Notes: I see we resigned Beno... oh, can you smell the mediocracy. I agree, I don't like our ceiling, and that's a very good reason that we need to retool.
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Bradley: This is just some superb defense against one of the hardest to defend PG's!

Post  Oracle on Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:16 pm

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Sparma

Post  Oracle on Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:01 pm

Sparma wrote:I'm not discounting that Billups improved while in Detroit; in fact, that's my perception subjectively. But the numbers don't bear out the popular perception that he makes a big leap once in Detroit from the level at which he'd been playing in Minnesota.
Whose popular conception? Nobody discussing this has made any such assertion that I'm aware of, so I'm not quite sure where this is coming from. Massive changes in fortune don't even require big leaps in numbers anyway, it's how the numbers are obtained in the context of team play.

The facts are clear, he was basically a SG masquerading  as a PG until LB turned him into a master floor general. Another part of that equation was LB's transformation of RIP into a player that complemented CB. That combination didn't work nearly as well until LB.

In addition, his offense was designed to use as much of the clock as possible searching for the best shot, something that forced them to be ready for playoff style basketball.

Larry Brown was a true genius for several reasons, but one of the biggest is fully knowing what he needed to make the team work. It wasn't an accident that he went after Sheed, he saw the missing ingredient and landed it. He may not have known how well it would work, but he knew it was what was needed.

Not referring to you, but it amazes me that people that don't understand coaching tend to believe that it's all accidental, that they somehow just get lucky of something, but it's hard work and study. It reminds me of how kids think that players just wake up and play, not understanding the tremendous amount of work that goes into it.

Notes: I see we resigned Beno... oh, can you smell the mediocracy. I agree, I don't like our ceiling, and that's a very good reason that we need to retool.
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Billups

Post  Sparma on Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:59 pm

I wasn't watching Billups in Minnesota, but did watch him once he arrived in Detroit, so I can't make an eye test comparison between M. and D., but need to go by the numbers. He played a few minutes more pg once in Detroit, so I'm going by the per 36 stats to get the most apples to apples comparison. A few things jump out at me: once in Detroit he took nearly a shot more per 36 minutes; more specifically, he took just over a 3 pointer more per 36. His ppg jumps. Most striking to me is that his assists per 36 go way down (!!) once he arrives in Detroit, from 6.9 to 4.4, this although his turnover rate stays the same. That a massive drop in assists (a drop which we also see in the totals, but masked a bit by increased minutes); his assists to TO rate becomes far worse during his first year in Detroit.

I'm not discounting that Billups improved while in Detroit; in fact, that's my perception subjectively. But the numbers don't bear out the popular perception that he makes a big leap once in Detroit from the level at which he'd been playing in Minnesota.


Oracle wrote:IMO, CB's transition was already going down, but it was going down twisted!

Larry Brown straightened it out. Remember CB morphed when he got here and became a Gilbert Arenas clone, jacking up 3's, looking like a SG instead of a PG!

LB stopped that backwards trajectory and made him a more rounded player, therefore LB gets the credit, and CB gives it to him.

What I credit CB with is being smart enough to listen and change his game, without which none of that happens, but it was driven by a great coach!
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Billups

Post  Oracle on Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:19 pm

IMO, CB's transition was already going down, but it was going down twisted!

Larry Brown straightened it out. Remember CB morphed when he got here and became a Gilbert Arenas clone, jacking up 3's, looking like a SG instead of a PG!

LB stopped that backwards trajectory and made him a more rounded player, therefore LB gets the credit, and CB gives it to him.

What I credit CB with is being smart enough to listen and change his game, without which none of that happens, but it was driven by a great coach!
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Blocks and Rebound

Post  WTF on Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:12 pm

Murph wrote:Exactly.  We know for a fact that Drummond can block 1.9 bpg, because he already did it.

If I were SVG, or better yet, if I were a good coach, I'd figure out how to get Drummond to block 2 shots a game again.

How much of that was due to being a fluke or simply being an unknown defensively.   Once players figured him out they started slicing the middle of our defense like butter.  Dre is still fundamentally lazy defensively and it was a matter of time those numbers would dip oppose to going up as he progresses with experience.

Lets not remain fooled that Andre is getting by quite a bit on physical ability and not smarts when it comes to both rebounding and shot blocking.  While at times his numbers might look impressive or even respectable the truth is they should be at a higher level.   His game lack both intensity and intelligence and that isn't a matter of SVG shortcomings but those belonging to Dre.  

Looking at Dre physical ability he should be a top shot blocker consistently, he should be changing games with his defense.  We should already be in awe of his ability to shut down the middle of the floor but we're not.
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AD's Shot Blocking

Post  Murph on Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:46 pm

Exactly. We know for a fact that Drummond can block 1.9 bpg, because he already did it.

If I were SVG, or better yet, if I were a good coach, I'd figure out how to get Drummond to block 2 shots a game again.
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Stuff

Post  Sparma on Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:59 am

Oracle: "just when I was ready to agree with your Philly like tanking, you say wait and see lol. Oh well, I actually do agree with you." lol. Timing's everything. In retrospect, I think we would have been better off with tanking at the beginning of SVG's tenure than with the incremental upgrades which were bound to peak at us being pretty good (unless Dre had really broken through). We'd have a higher ceiling at this point had they taken a more radical strategy. Now, so many resources have been devoted to being decent during the coming season that you probably need to let it play out, then go for the thorough rebuild if things go South.

That said, if it were all up to me, I'd still start in with the massive tank job right now, because I don't like our ceiling, but that's just not going to happen, so I may as well be semi-realistic about where the team's at and give SVG his shot, employed what I have come to see as a flawed strategy.

With some trepidation, I weigh in on the Don-Murph exchange, where I hear a lot of good points on each side. I do agree with Don on a couple of specific issues: 1) the Billups breakthrough already was well underway in Minnesota (although I'm happy to give Larry credit too), 2) AD's surprisingly ineffective as shot blocker. In fact, there's a weird pattern to his numbers: 1.6, 1.6, 1.9, 1.4. 1.1. He started off with solid blocking numbers in the NBA, peaked at a good level, then declined the last two years to a level that's not impressive for an athletic beast like him. A lot of times excellent rebounding and shot blocking numbers go hand in hand, as for Rodman and Wallace. Not always though. For what it's worth, I bring up something from my own experience of having been a good rebounder, but not a good shot blocker. The positioning needed for each can cause tension between the two goals, in my experience. Dre seems so intent on cleaning up the rebounds, that he's not consistently in the right position to rack up the huge shot blocking numbers that you'd think he would.
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Dear Don,

Post  Murph on Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:13 am

Usually, I find your posts to be so long winded and tedious, that I don't even read them, let alone reply to them. But I found your last post to be so irritating that I just couldn't resist.

1. I agree SVG sucks as a coach, GM and President.

2. Obviously LB greatly improved Billups' PG skills. LB was in C-Bills ear constantly. And Billups gradually improved until he became one of the best PGs in the league, and Finals MVP. I credit Brown with much of Billups' success.

3. Laimbeer was drafted in the 3rd round at #65. He would not have even been drafted by today's rules. Under Chuck Daly, Laimbeer became an All Star and the best rebounder of the 80's. You can credit Zeke if you want, but I'll credit the HOF Coach Daly, who was universally loved and respected by his players.

4. Ben Wallace was an undrafted journeyman, on his 3rd team in 5 years. He was playing PF in Orlando. LB turned him into a four time All Star, four time Defensive Player of the Year, two time NBA rebounding leader, one time blocked shot leader and NBA Champion.

5. I have not doubt that under the right coach, Drummond could realize his athletic potential and become a star, if not a HOFer.
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