I Have No Clue What SVG Thinking Is But.....

[WTF]

"We had the better PF in Josh who was putting up the same stats if not better before we signed him, but he like Morris was judged even before putting on a Pistons uniform because Moose was a fan favorite for all the wrong reasons. But it was clear that Josh was better all the way around and had more impact on this team. Josh was a better defender, better mid-range shooter, better athlete, better rebounder, better shot blocker, better passer simply Josh was more skilled. But as always someone needed to be unfairly scapegoated welcome to the club Josh, and even now it still happens."

It doesn't really matter who one prefers, Josh Smith, Greg Monroe, or both (I preferred to keep both).  The fact of the matter is SVG dumped both, and replaced them with Ilyasova and Baynes.

Personally, I thought both Smith and Monroe were better big men than EI and Baynes, and played with more grit and toughness.  And the fact that SVG couldn't win with them, say a lot more about SVG than it does about Smith and Monroe.

Just my opinion...

Murph I agree 100% that it falls on SVG not being able to make it work, but this also applies to Joe and Cheeks as well. IMO Drummond was not then and even today a player that should have been labeled "Franchise Player". This isn't to say that he'll never be or don't have the potential to be but IMO the best suitable tandem at PF and C and likely the more productive one would have been Monroe and Josh. Instead all the political BS prevented that from happening and both Josh and Moose were force into playing their least effective positions. Cheeks knew it but had Andre starting forced down his throat by the "Powers That Be" and Joe sold his soul to the devil when Gore allowed him to make that Free Agency signing of both Josh and Jennings.

No doubt Josh and Monroe are better than both EI and Baynes if they were used properly. Moose was far better the center and Josh was a career PF that average 17 and 8 before coming here. I mean really how and hell do Cheeks become a lame duck coach in his first season under contract and we all knew Cheeks was a far better coach than what we were seeing. I think Josh felt he could play SF but Josh new he was a better PF and Moose knew he was a far better center than PF. Andre should have always been coming off the bench with a consistent 20 minute a game but he war prematurely force into a starting rotation with 2 big guys struggling to master positions they were never meant to master just simply provide spot duty from time to time.

You can say that the damage was already done by the time SVG got here so he was forced into the Josh situation and damage control on the Moose situation was beyond repair by then. If Andre never becomes the cornerstone player or help this team produce a title really soon you can almost look at him as another Darko selection. Not in the same sense of stats and production but in terms of the residual damage in selecting him caused in the lose of Moose, the failure Josh, the trading of Knight and Middleton.

If you had told me at the time that I would have had either Burk or MCW starting with Knight Middleton Smith and Monroe with Stuckey Singler Andre coming off the bench then I would have said playoff team and I would take them over our current roster in a heart beat. In fact had Joe been this smart he still might be running things and Cheeks still coaching his second or 3rd playoff team by now.

[Murph]

"We had the better PF in Josh who was putting up the same stats if not better before we signed him, but he like Morris was judged even before putting on a Pistons uniform because Moose was a fan favorite for all the wrong reasons. But it was clear that Josh was better all the way around and had more impact on this team. Josh was a better defender, better mid-range shooter, better athlete, better rebounder, better shot blocker, better passer simply Josh was more skilled. But as always someone needed to be unfairly scapegoated welcome to the club Josh, and even now it still happens."

It doesn't really matter who one prefers, Josh Smith, Greg Monroe, or both (I preferred to keep both). The fact of the matter is SVG dumped both, and replaced them with Ilyasova and Baynes.

Personally, I thought both Smith and Monroe were better big men than EI and Baynes, and played with more grit and toughness. And the fact that SVG couldn't win with them, say a lot more about SVG than it does about Smith and Monroe.

Just my opinion...

[WTF]

First off Wise, I doubt if you want me starting at PF. As a slow, white, elderly former shortstop with an erratic jump shot, I think you'd be severely disappointed in my performance. Basketball

But on to your post: how are you defining "soft". Because I don't usually hear that term applied to 6'11, 250 lb big men, who score 16 ppg all in the paint, while pulling down 10 rpg. He might be painfully slow on defense, but he ain't soft.

When I think of soft, I think of the way SVG coaches.

Murph and I'll still take you over Monroe. I could be wrong about a lot of my fellow posters here but I always get the impression that many of you at times but not all the time will look at a players numbers and decide from there what time of player they are. This is especially done when said player is a fan favorite or simply your favorite. I know I've been guilty of this because of some of the players I've championed in the past like Kwame, Charlie, and Josh and even Morris now, but most time I do it because these players are unfairly judged before, during and after there time here.

Now on to this Moose being soft thing. First I've have always said that his stats were the least effective stats of an NBA player I ever seen. I said this because his numbers don't come at crunch time, or in moments where its clear we need him to dominate. So when I speak of softness its largely at the heart and effort I see in him shying away from wanting to be a dominate big man. Secondly as big as he is he should easily be at or near 25 point and 13-14 boards a game oppose to the barely 16 points and 10 boards he was producing. Sadly many fans and I think most here have lowered the bar for players like Moose just so they can have or create something hopeful with players like Moose and its this reason we hold on to players far longer than we should or pass on trade opportunities that come along. I'm damned if Cousins wasn't a better fit next to Andre when we had a chance to swap Monroe for Cousins and many fan whined how bad it would be.

I think if everyone here honestly look back in the head and hearts and assess Monroe this is what they'll really see.
1. A player that shied away from big moments in clutch situations
2. A player that often got dominated by lesser talent (As a slow, white, elderly former shortstop with an erratic jump shot) how many time this same guy kick on his ass?
3. A player that often spent more time whining to refs about minimum contact and not hustling back up court thi had nothing to do with being slow and athletically challenged it had everything with being a diva and wanting things easy. Most of his rebound came from shear luck not dominance and that can happen with most players just being 6"10. Really if you look you can account for at least 4 or 5 of those coming off a tip my another player luckly landing in his hands.
4. We had the better PF in Josh who was putting up the same stats if not better before we signed him, but he like Morris was judged even before putting on a Pistons uniform because Moose was a fan favorite for all the wrong reasons. But it was clear that Josh was better all the way around and had more impact on this team. Josh was a better defender, better mid-range shooter, better athlete, better rebounder, better shot blocker, better passer simply Josh was more skilled. But as always someone needed to be unfairly scapegoated welcome to the club Josh, and even now it still happens.
5. Truth is that it was Jennings improved play and not the absence of Josh that made the team better, at least not for the reason many tried painting it Jennings became better because Josh was no longer made an option, Jennings became better because that moved sent a message, the turnaround was more about Jennings than Josh absence. But please know this nothing about Moose weak ass effort changed when Josh departed, he didn't become better or more dominate, he didn't step up defensively and get better, he wasn't the pick and roll option it was Jackson and Drummond and before that it was Jennings and Drummond. The only thing that brieifly changed with Moose was the comfort level of Josh not being here any longer questioning his heart and toughness. The next thing he does is go into diva mode again because being second fiddle was no different in being third fiddle behind Andre and Josh. So now he's out getting dui's and pissing his pants before faking an injury at the end of the season and as sure as I predicted Tolliver looked a hell of a lot better in his place and so did the team as a whole. Then some of you started singing a different tune on if we really needed his ass at all, some of you started seeing what I've been saying the past 4 seasons. So yeah Murph! all take you over Moose any day of the week bad knees and all.

[deusXango]

We've got too many players and one freaking spot open, so something has to give, and a trade would be the best thing to happen!

Like what you ask? Well, movement of someone a bit bigger! [list=1]
[*]Package Morris, Martin, Granger & Bullock for a star SF!

'Yo Oracle, I'm all over the prospect of this proposed trade scenario, with the exception of Danny Granger...I'd like to see if we can resurrect him before moving him, but Bullock, Morris, Martin, and perhaps Meeks should get us this unnamed star SF. Who'd you have in mind, by the way?

[Oracle]

Ok, since I'm up and can't sleep, I'll bore you guys with another post

We've got too many players and one freaking spot open, so something has to give, and a trade would be the best thing to happen!

There has to be somebody out there that could use a few 6'6-6'7 players, and we've got a small army of them!

So who do we package up to move out? Well, Martin for sure, but Granger and Bullock could be moved as well, but these are the obvious deals, I'm hoping for something a bit tastier.

Like what you ask? Well, movement of someone a bit bigger! Here are my two surprise moves.

1. Package Morris, Martin, Granger & Bullock for a star SF!
   
2. Package EI and the same scrubs for a stud PF to play with Drummond
   

The shocker special, and one that would net a much bigger fish, IMO, would be this,

• Move KCP and change for a star SG! This would be billed as some team getting an up and coming SG and us getting a SG that's ready today.
  

I said shocker because it's the least likely because KCP is on target to be very good about the time this team is truly ready to win it all in 2-3 years, so moving him wouldn't make sense unless the returned SG was a star and also young enough to be here for a long time. In addition, he likely wouldn't be as contract dollar friendly as KCP, which is nothing to sneeze at!

[Oracle]

First off Wise, I doubt if you want me starting at PF.  As a slow, white, elderly former shortstop with an erratic jump shot, I think you'd be severely disappointed in my performance.  

But on to your post:  how are you defining "soft".  Because I don't usually hear that term applied to 6'11, 250 lb big men, who score 16 ppg all in the paint, while pulling down 10 rpg.  He might be painfully slow on defense, but he ain't soft.

When I think of soft, I think of the way SVG coaches.

LOL, I'm White, not that slow, starting to get old, with a decent jumper, but any NBA player would kick my ass six ways to Sunday

But SVG's coaching isn't necessarily soft, it depends on the personnel! I thought his Magic teams were soft, even Howard back then, because we beat them like a drum, and Sheed OWNED Howard in the worst way! Against the Magic was one of the few times Prince look dominant, he attacked like he rarely did against good teams! They just weren't tough enough to scare anybody!

I rated them almost even with that Laker team that beat them in the finals, with Kobe being the wild card difference maker, but if they were tougher, they would have won that series! I didn't rate that Laker team very high, and one of the weaker Laker teams to win it all!

Last years team wasn't soft! They may have been a bit inexperienced, but not even Singler was soft, just young! This years team will be a LOT tougher, both mentally and physically, and I don't expect to see them playing soft and backing down to anyone!

However, I do see what you mean! If you compare a team built by Larry Brown vs a team built by SVG, it's clear that the coaching of LB is going to lead to playing a much more physical, tough game than any SVG coached team!

SVG's coaching lends itself to a team being softer if the players are soft in any way, but if the players aren't, it won't.

[Murph]

Murph I would have trade Moore for a sack of rotten potatoes and call it a win for us. Just simply not having him on the court makes us better so any player we replaced him with that has a half decent mid-range game is a plus.  

Oracle the players are suited for SVG scheme maybe perhaps his Orlando squad was long lengthy and tall with the exception of his PG.  The make up of this roster seem less suited both offensively and defensively.  And the shooters are questionable so I'm not really seeing it all come together.  I agree beyond the starting 5 we're in small ball territory with the second group so I'm hoping that Granger finds his form and health and remain on this team but we need big players at least 2 more because I'm not ready to qualify either Tolliver nor Anthony solid pieces.  

Wise...I've come to the conclusion that you're a big complainer.  You complained about Moose not having an outside shot, and now you're complaining about EI not being able to rebound well enough, and not having an inside game.  

And while I agree with you that SVG needs to pick up two more big men to fill out the roster, he's already spent his wad.  We're now sitting at a payroll of $81 million, the 3rd highest in the league, SVG is still two players shy of a well balanced roster.

And look at all the total waste of money contracts that SVG has on the payroll (Smith, Gray, Martin, etc).  SVG sure knows how to spend Tom Gores' money.

You're Damn Skippy I'll complain but if you think my only issue with Moose was his outside shooting then you're mistaken.  Here's My List Of What I hated About Moose

1. he's a lazy ****
2. he's freaking soft
3. he's over rated offensively
4. he's a **** defender
5. he pissed his pants
6. he's a whiner
7. he's ugly
8. he doesn't have a mid-range game
9. Again he's freaking soft

I could go on and on but I won't this should safice as more than enough reason.  I don't care if it sounds like complaining but I'm not endorsing anyone prematurely or on the basis of simply sporting a Pistons uniform.  

At no time did I complain about EI simply stating I;m not confident about him holding up still I'll take him over Moose's under whelming percievce greatness fans like you have placed on him.  

Really I'm happy Moose is gone and we could have replace him with you Murph and I would give you more confidence than I given Moose's Sorry Ass. SVG should have kept Josh

First off Wise, I doubt if you want me starting at PF.  As a slow, white, elderly former shortstop with an erratic jump shot, I think you'd be severely disappointed in my performance.  

But on to your post:  how are you defining "soft".  Because I don't usually hear that term applied to 6'11, 250 lb big men, who score 16 ppg all in the paint, while pulling down 10 rpg.  He might be painfully slow on defense, but he ain't soft.

When I think of soft, I think of the way SVG coaches.

[Oracle]

This comes from As David at MLive,

Q: Stan Van Gundy has said he knew coming in that the Pistons had the worst five-year record in the East, and thus they couldn't really "tank" last season given what the fans had gone through. He also said that Tom Gores was against tanking as well. Given that, does this mean Joe Dumars really couldn't tank, like Philadelphia still appears to be doing, even if he wanted to (which I doubt he would)? Looking at what at least on paper looks like a successful summer by Van Gundy, was the main reason (my guesses) for Joe's downfall just because he lost "it" (whatever "it" is), that he drifted away from his winning philosophy of getting tough players, the sale of the team/outside circumstances that handcuffed him, or does this just show Van Gundy is a better president of basketball operations regardless of circumstances? Thanks. -- Ishmael

A: To your last question, Dumars had one NBA championship, two NBA Finals and six Eastern Conference Finals as the Pistons' top executive. Van Gundy has one non-playoff season. I like what Van Gundy has done in revamping and expanding the front office, but as to proof that he's a better president of basketball operations, I'd say look in The Palace rafters. Van Gundy needs a few years before that comparison can be drawn. As to how successful this offseason was or wasn't, the Pistons missed on top free agents and their biggest external moves were trades for Ersan Ilyasova and Marcus Morris. I'm not sure I'd give it such high marks. But the advantage Van Gundy has over Dumars is complete concert with his head coach. So we shall see.

Dumars had several difficulties, some obvious, like the Darko Milicic draft, the Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva signings, and the lengthy purgatory during the franchise transfer from the late Bill Davidson's estate to Gores.

Some were a bit more subtle, like the fact that six consecutive conference finals might have handcuffed Dumars in a completely different way (the Pistons probably should have started breaking up the championship core a couple years earlier, except they were winning and selling out every game, to Davidson's delight), reluctance to trust his coaches, and dumping Amir Johnson and Arron Afflalo in summer 2009 to create cap space which he used on Chris Wilcox.

All in all, if you were an NBA owner, and you knew the results in advance, and were given the option between taking Dumars' 14-year run or what's behind the curtain, you'd take Dumars, warts and championship alike.

As to tanking, if the Pistons wanted to tank, they could have saved $7 million on Van Gundy last year and let Maurice Cheeks serve out his contract. Tanking is not now, nor was it ever, a factor in anything anyone is/was doing here.

[WTF]

Murph I would have trade Moore for a sack of rotten potatoes and call it a win for us. Just simply not having him on the court makes us better so any player we replaced him with that has a half decent mid-range game is a plus.  

Oracle the players are suited for SVG scheme maybe perhaps his Orlando squad was long lengthy and tall with the exception of his PG.  The make up of this roster seem less suited both offensively and defensively.  And the shooters are questionable so I'm not really seeing it all come together.  I agree beyond the starting 5 we're in small ball territory with the second group so I'm hoping that Granger finds his form and health and remain on this team but we need big players at least 2 more because I'm not ready to qualify either Tolliver nor Anthony solid pieces.  

Wise...I've come to the conclusion that you're a big complainer.  You complained about Moose not having an outside shot, and now you're complaining about EI not being able to rebound well enough, and not having an inside game.  

And while I agree with you that SVG needs to pick up two more big men to fill out the roster, he's already spent his wad.  We're now sitting at a payroll of $81 million, the 3rd highest in the league, SVG is still two players shy of a well balanced roster.

And look at all the total waste of money contracts that SVG has on the payroll (Smith, Gray, Martin, etc).  SVG sure knows how to spend Tom Gores' money.

You're Damn Skippy I'll complain but if you think my only issue with Moose was his outside shooting then you're mistaken. Here's My List Of What I hated About Moose

1. he's a lazy ****
2. he's freaking soft
3. he's over rated offensively
4. he's a **** defender
5. he pissed his pants
6. he's a whiner
7. he's ugly
8. he doesn't have a mid-range game
9. Again he's freaking soft

I could go on and on but I won't this should safice as more than enough reason. I don't care if it sounds like complaining but I'm not endorsing anyone prematurely or on the basis of simply sporting a Pistons uniform.

At no time did I complain about EI simply stating I;m not confident about him holding up still I'll take him over Moose's under whelming percievce greatness fans like you have placed on him.

Really I'm happy Moose is gone and we could have replace him with you Murph and I would give you more confidence than I given Moose's Sorry Ass. SVG should have kept Josh

[Oracle]

The fickle finger of fate always finds the biggest complainers

[Murph]

Murph I would have trade Moore for a sack of rotten potatoes and call it a win for us. Just simply not having him on the court makes us better so any player we replaced him with that has a half decent mid-range game is a plus.  

Oracle the players are suited for SVG scheme maybe perhaps his Orlando squad was long lengthy and tall with the exception of his PG.  The make up of this roster seem less suited both offensively and defensively.  And the shooters are questionable so I'm not really seeing it all come together.  I agree beyond the starting 5 we're in small ball territory with the second group so I'm hoping that Granger finds his form and health and remain on this team but we need big players at least 2 more because I'm not ready to qualify either Tolliver nor Anthony solid pieces.  

Wise...I've come to the conclusion that you're a big complainer. You complained about Moose not having an outside shot, and now you're complaining about EI not being able to rebound well enough, and not having an inside game.

And while I agree with you that SVG needs to pick up two more big men to fill out the roster, he's already spent his wad. We're now sitting at a payroll of $81 million, the 3rd highest in the league, SVG is still two players shy of a well balanced roster.

And look at all the total waste of money contracts that SVG has on the payroll (Smith, Gray, Martin, etc). SVG sure knows how to spend Tom Gores' money.

[Phil-Good]

The Pistons are soft at the PF position right now. If the Pistons are going to progress to the next level, we need A good PF to place next to Drummonds.

Issisova is very skilled and I would love him coming off the bench and giving A kick a.s.s. lift at the 6th man spot. Add A starting PF and allow Tolliver to enter on injury situations and foul trouble. Something will come up but for now, everything is depending on Drummonds and as much as I live Drummonds, he is A foul machine.

[WTF]

Murph I would have trade Moore for a sack of rotten potatoes and call it a win for us. Just simply not having him on the court makes us better so any player we replaced him with that has a half decent mid-range game is a plus.

Oracle the players are suited for SVG scheme maybe perhaps his Orlando squad was long lengthy and tall with the exception of his PG. The make up of this roster seem less suited both offensively and defensively. And the shooters are questionable so I'm not really seeing it all come together. I agree beyond the starting 5 we're in small ball territory with the second group so I'm hoping that Granger finds his form and health and remain on this team but we need big players at least 2 more because I'm not ready to qualify either Tolliver nor Anthony solid pieces.

Merc, I'm not feeling our SG situation because it's like throwing a turd at wall to see if it will stick. Not that I think Meeks, KCP suck. It just that one is only useful when hot, the other don't fit offensively at all. May quiet hope is that Johnson can play the SG

[merc]

Gonna have to go with DX on this one... fit trumps talent... every single player will better with the spacing and improved perimeter D.
I will agree with Murph that they will have issues rebounding vs bigger PFs and defending the post.
My hope is that the pieces picked up can be can be upgraded due to E.I.'s expiring money... indeed this position could be our weakest link.

Wise I'm not too concerned with the team's height... KCP is the right length for SG... Jackson is above avg (considering 7' wings).
Other teams may have success shooting over SJ on the perimeter but he will make it difficult for them to get inside with his strong core (only gonna improve).

[deusXango]

E.I. is a power forward and Moose is not! What's so difficult about that to understand? Tolliver is a relentless outside shooter (who also was a better fit starting next to Drummond when Moose was out) who's going to come off the bench. Baynes is a tough, bruising, interior force that can take his man outside, whereas Moose can't.

Question: Do you think the average GM in the NBA would trade Moose for Ilyasova, Baynes and Tolliver?

I don't. But that's what SVG has effectively done. He declined to re-sign Moose for about $16.5 million, and instead he traded for or signed Ilyasova ($8 million), Baynes ($6.5), and Tolliver ($3 million).

I ain't seeing, feeling, nor will I insult fans intelligence by suggesting that Greg Monroe, at $16.5 million, is a better bargain than a true PF, a capable backup PF, and a quality backup center; there's no way I can imagine their combined production being less than 16 points and 9.5 rebounds a night!!! My question is, what GM couldn't see that Monroe's plodding presence in the post was retarding Drummond's development? Being as how there's room for only one starting center on this team, why pay Moose that ridiculous salary to compete with a blooming, more athletic, and younger center? To trade him later? Well, SVG didn't wait until later, he's gone and the team is the better for it. He's gone. HE'S GONE!! Ilyasova, Baynes, and Tolliver are Pistons, plus Moose wanted to leave; he wanted no part of Detroit, in spite of what some still don't believe, but he's a Buck now.

[Oracle]

It's no secret that I would have preferred to keep Moose and work out the issues, but it was always going to be a heavy lift! Not that we couldn't have found a way to make it work, but after Joe got shafted, and yes, he got shafted, even if it was time for him to go!

At that point Moose was mentally gone, and only a massive wooing of him was going to keep him here. He didn't have the full trust in Gores that Drummond developed, and he's a very principled dude, which I admire in a guy so young!

But your observation is 100% on the money, and a great one at that!

Losing Moose is one of the bigger f**kups in recent memory, but we have mostly recovered. That's why I say it's really two dudes, Baynes & EI, that make up for the loss of Moose, and IMO, they make us better!

[Murph]

"My fear is that we are going to be brutally murder night in and night out on the boards on both ends. This will compound even more if Andre ever gets in foul trouble and can't be on the floor."

Wise..it sounds as if you're saying we're going to miss Moose and his 10 rebounds per game.  I agree.



Question:  Do you think the average GM in the NBA would trade Moose for Ilyasova, Baynes and Tolliver?

I don't.  But that's what SVG has effectively done.  He declined to re-sign Moose for about $16.5 million, and instead he traded for or signed Ilyasova ($8 million), Baynes ($6.5), and Tolliver ($3 million).    



And does anyone realize that at $81 million, our Pistons have the 3rd highest payroll in the NBA?     We sure are not getting our money's worth.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/#hh-tab-team-payroll


Oracle...so you're basically saying that after Josh Smith was cut we played .500 basketball with Drummond and Moose starting together in the front court.  

That's Moose and Drummond had an average age of 22 1/2 years old, were home grown, and could have played together for a decade.    

[Oracle]

I know posters like Don, who did complain about the team last year a lot, and thought they weren't very good, and others are very wrong. The media is even predicting that this is not a playoff team!

However, if you look at the facts and not the final record, you get a totally different picture. Here are the facts,

We went 5-23, then we traded Josh Smith! After the trade, we played .500 ball over the rest of the season, and that included the 10 game losing streak we suffered after trading for Reggie!

That led to us winning 50% of the remaining 54 games to finish with a 32-50 record. So the reality is that at a minimum, we should have won 42 games with an intact team, and at maximum 44-45 games... WELL above the east playoff mark!

This team is a LOT more talented than last years team, and IMO, a lot tougher, mentally and physically! In addition, SVG's coaching has a LOT to do with this, he got a lot of mileage out of that talent, and should do even better with these guys, especially if he can curb his small ball desires  

But we're Detroit, we're used to people writing us off! Good thing about that is that it allows us to sneak up on them and kick their asses

[Oracle]

Wise, I never looked at it quite like you just did, and obviously there is, and should be some concern about the way the roster is constructed.

Having said that, the thing you didn't look at is how the roster is projected to be used. Let's look at the most critical way SVG would use the players currently here.

Starting Lineup: Reggie, KCP, Morris, EI, Drummond

This is not small ball by any measure you care to define, so in reality, having so many 6'5-6'7 guys isn't an issue there.

2nd Unit: Jennings, Meeks, Johnson, Tolliver, Baynes

Ok, except for Baynes, this is a small ball lineup, but in this case, you don't care as much because you're looking for a change of pace in the 2nd unit anyway. My concern about the 2nd unit is that if small ball is a bad matchup, we don't have any bigger bodies to throw in there without bringing in some starters, and that can't work over long stretches.

So it's not as bad as you think, but there are issues.

We have 3 guys 6"10 or bigger Andre at 6"11, Baynes and EI both at 6"10.  We have 18 players currently under contract and 8 of those players are a variation of some type of guard PG or SG.  What gets me is that we have Joel Anthony at 6"9 listed as a center and Anthony Tolliver at 6"7 listed as a power forward.  Only Morris and Granger both listed at 6"9 playing the SF position seem to be the only thing normal about the rosters other than the teams 3 big men EI, Baynes and Andre.  

Everywhere else or thing about this roster reeks of a bunch of tweeners and mess confusion with implementing and developing the roster properly.  It also reeks of a **** load of Small Ball and Long Ball being a mainstay to SVG offensive scheme oppose to anything traditional.  As I said I don't like it one single bit.  Do I think it will net them 44 wins? very possible but it's still Circus Basketball IMO and it won't get them very far unless the entire league goes ape **** with this process of putting together a roster and implementing an offense of Midgets and, Tweener jacking up 3's.  

The other thing I find crazy about this roster is the overkill or obsession of all these tweeners, Joe had it with his love of Combo guards and now SVG has it with all these 6"5 to 6"7 that may or may not be SG or SF.   We all know what a normal SG needs to look like (Rip Hamilton 6"7) My fear is that we are going to be brutally murder night in and night out on the boards on both ends.   This will compound even more if Andre ever gets in foul trouble and can't be on the floor.  

[WTF]

We have 3 guys 6"10 or bigger Andre at 6"11, Baynes and EI both at 6"10. We have 18 players currently under contract and 8 of those players are a variation of some type of guard PG or SG. What gets me is that we have Joel Anthony at 6"9 listed as a center and Anthony Tolliver at 6"7 listed as a power forward. Only Morris and Granger both listed at 6"9 playing the SF position seem to be the only thing normal about the rosters other than the teams 3 big men EI, Baynes and Andre.

Everywhere else or thing about this roster reeks of a bunch of tweeners and mess confusion with implementing and developing the roster properly. It also reeks of a **** load of Small Ball and Long Ball being a mainstay to SVG offensive scheme oppose to anything traditional. As I said I don't like it one single bit. Do I think it will net them 44 wins? very possible but it's still Circus Basketball IMO and it won't get them very far unless the entire league goes ape **** with this process of putting together a roster and implementing an offense of Midgets and, Tweener jacking up 3's.

The other thing I find crazy about this roster is the overkill or obsession of all these tweeners, Joe had it with his love of Combo guards and now SVG has it with all these 6"5 to 6"7 that may or may not be SG or SF. We all know what a normal SG needs to look like (Rip Hamilton 6"7) My fear is that we are going to be brutally murder night in and night out on the boards on both ends. This will compound even more if Andre ever gets in foul trouble and can't be on the floor.

[deusXango]

No matter how you look at it (unless you're looking with bias eyes) E.I. and Baynes are going to combine to mean more to the Pistons than Monroe did or would've, if he resigned with us, for the damn max (what his supporters mistakenly believed he was worth to us). Both are tougher than Monroe and they're coming to us cheaper than he'd have cost us to continue losing...at least with these two we stand a chance to turn things around. Let's be patient and give these guys (who are Pistons by the way) our full support, until such time as they show to not be deserving of it.

[Oracle]

@Wise & @Murph - You guys are missing the point! Baynes is the Monroe replacement, IMO! He's about Monroe's size, not as good in the low post, but shoots midrange a hell of a lot better, and hits FT's at a higher rate!

The problem is that SVG doesn't see him that way, although he may once EI pulls the cripple card!

Why does KCP get his PT... he earns it! Great stuff!

[Murph]

Wise, I knew I would get you started on Moose again, but I just had to ask.

IMO, Piston fans in general are going to become more and more turned off by the small ball and long ball teams that SVG will put on the court. I've said this from the day SVG was hired by Detroit, and I even said it years ago about his Orlando teams, when he surrounded Dwight Howard with shooters like...Lewis and Turkoglue.

Moose might have had his drawbacks on defense, but I think we're going to miss his low post presence on offense, and his 16 ppg and 50% FG%.

[WTF]

Moose never got a reigning endorsement from either Big Ben who he shared the court with or from Sheed who gravitated in the direction of Andre instead. It was always politically correct for both former players to not publicly bash or trash Moose so it was one of those things that if you don't have nothing nice to say then say nothing or it was always some ho-hum standard reference of Moose when asked about him.

Just my observation from the outside looking in neither really respected him because of his crappy work ethics off season and during. He likely rubbed Big Ben the wrong way the most considering the work Big Ben had to put in being un-drafted to get where he did in the NBA. Sheed himself seem like an under-achiever but managed to get most out of minimum effort most have felt that Moose was either extremely stupid or extremely lazy.

When Rodman allowed his number to come out of the rafters so that Moose could wear number 10, I initially thought he would respect that number by giving the same effort and intensity the Worm played with. I mean the nerve one must have to want the number of a HOF player and not produce or dominate or at least try to in the manner of the player that adorn that number prior. Too many of you made far too many excuse for his ass while he was here but I knew he was a joke right off. Imagine if Jackson wanted number 11 or Johnson wanted number 4 nad KCP wanted Vinnie's number I mean wouldn't you want them to live up to those numbers. We hate like hell every player that wanted to wear number 1 but it was okay for this lazy **** to sport number 10.

[WTF]

"I'm looking for A trade for A talented power forward. I like Illsovia as the skilled PF coming off the bench. Not as my starting power forward. The Pistons are thin at the PF spot. That has to be addressed. Everybody is in love with the small ball S.H.I.T. I'm not A fan of it. Go find me A skill big man, who can shoot, defend, and kick people's A.S.S down on the block!"


"But what I really agree with you on is the lack of a truly dominate PF on the roster because I'm not sold EI is a starter for a full season though potentially he could be.

Never was a fan of small ball, not a big fan of the long ball either and would like to see a more traditional make up of the roster because IMO we have to many tweeners again."


Phillip and Wise, I generally agree with your statements above.  That's why I was a proponent of keeping Monroe.  I agree that EI is not the long term answer at PF, and I was never a fan of small ball, or long ball either.

Monroe provided a huge, hulking presence in the paint at PF.  It's too bad SVG couldn't figure out how to win with him.

Still don't think Monroe was anymore the answer long term than EI either. IMO Monroe had the most meaningless stats I ever saw from a player on any NBA team that I can remember. On the surface you look at Monroe numbers and you think you might have something but if you're brutally and I mean brutally honest with yourself his numbers had very little impact on the team.

Okay he average 16 points but you can mathematically decrease that based on what he game up point wise defensively and split that number and half leaving him with an 8 point average. Overall there was never really nothing dominate about his stats because they never came in clutch moments of a game rarely keyed any runs. There was never a big moment with anything that he did. no game winning shot, no clutch rebound or block in a crucial moment of a game. In fact he was our most passive player in those situations when he should have been demanding the ball and dominating during those situation which is why I never felt he deserved Max Money no matter where he ended up.

While I don't think EI is much better or better at all what I do know is that EI will likely have more bigger moments and bigger impact on the team than Monroe ever has. So EI my score less and rebound less but when he does it'll be a big 3 point shot, or a big rebound or hustle play that will make a difference in rather they win or lose.

The reason why I never had a real issue with Josh shot selection was at least he had the balls and gumption want and think he could be a difference maker with this team, something Monroe shied away from from fear of failure.

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