Some Good and Some Bad Still a Loss Though

[WTF]

I Liked how Dinwiddie played last night this was likely the best he's looked all season. I think his confidence was in full effect last night and it showed on the floor and with SVG having him in at crunch time. If he keeps this up the rest of the season it will be interesting to see how SVG handles this little PG dilemma he seem to have and I do mean little nothing major.

What I do like is that Dinwiddie and Jackson both can attack the rim, Dinwiddie show signs of Chauncey in terms of how he handle and approached the game last night. Much more athletic than CB but not quite as strong as CB, I'm not all that concern about his quickness as a PG neither was Chauncey quick but the size and strength made him adequate as a defender.

What Nene did yesterday to Moose and others defending him was almost laughable, this was shades of the Nene that shined in Denver. What did he have like 5 or 6 drives and dunks at the basket last night. Stat wise Moose matched Nene but again nothing about Moose stats reeks of being clutch while all of Nene stats seem to be big moment stats.

Still have to be a little impress with coming from 21 down and taking the lead a couple of times down the stretch. Andre got to get better at the free throw line and I'm going to go back to my original complaint about the ill-advise 3's that we seem to rely on far too much.

[Sparma]

Outstanding game by Dinwiddie. One thing I liked was his full court run for a score in the 4th quarter. He showed some of the physicality I've worried about (also on his follow through dunk). He consistently plays under control, consistently looks for his teammates early. My other concern with him, apart from explosiveness, might sound odd: whether he has a good enough handle (Reggie & Jennings seem clearly better in that respect). Looks he could have a long NBA career, in some role, health allowing.

Still can't get excited about Monroe's exploits. Things have gone well enough post-Josh that I think he'll give Detroit serious consideration. Like Merc though, I think he's well aware of his deficiencies as PF and that he wants to be a center full time. New Orleans does seem like the ideal destination for him. We have a real chance of resigning him, but at the end of the day I think he'll leave this summer.

Stating the obvious: Wall's really fast.

I liked Kelser's description of Gortat as a "cutting center." He's been impressive against us.

[Oracle]

Likely, but will SVG play him enough to do us some good!

Take a bow Don, you latched on early with good analysis of how Dinwiddie improved the team when he ran it, and I agree!

Ok, we know he won't get the starting gig, but he should be the FIRST guard off the bench and Lucas used as a Microwave or something!

Great game from the rookie!!!

[Oracle]

The Pistons and Wizards are one day removed from losses to the two worst teams in the NBA. Detroit is coming off a 121-115, double-overtime loss to the New York Knicks on Friday that dumped it to 12th in the Eastern Conference. If they had beaten the NBA's worst team, the Pistons would be eighth in the East today, above the playoff cut line. The The Wizards lost 89-81 Friday to the Philadelphia 76ers, the team with the second-worst record in the NBA. - Mayo

[Oracle]

Merc, you have been saying that from day one, and I give you full credit, it took me a lot longer, but I finally came around recently! I really wanted it to work, but just like the Josh Smith incident, we keep trying to force things to happen that just aren't there.

This is another WOW! Anthony Mason DEAD at 48 - Knicks say former player Anthony Mason has died

[merc]

@Sparma - When I saw Gallinari blow by Monroe, I was almost ready to blow chunks! I know it's not fair, but that play summed up Monroe's career as a PF... he ain't one! For his sake and ours, he needs to go to a team that will play him at the 5!

I've been beating this drum since the day the experiment started.... he would look fabulous next to Anthony Davis... pretty sure his own weakness has not escaped him... IMO he takes a max deal to go back home to N.O.

[Oracle]

@Don provided perhaps the most complete description of last nights debacle! I struggled to believe what I was seeing because I thought those kinds of losses were far behind us!

From a defensive perspective, this crap just shouldn't be possible, and IMO, the two keys to this loss, though not the only ones, were Jackson & Monroe. It's clear to see why Monroe hates guarding PF that shoot from deep. If he goes out there to guard them, he doesn't have either the lateral or foot speed to keep from getting blown by, and it doesn't take speedy Gonzales to do it!

IMO, Jackson showed absolutely no PG leadership! I know he doesn't fully know the players yet, but this was just bad!

@Sparma - When I saw Gallinari blow by Monroe, I was almost ready to blow chunks! I know it's not fair, but that play summed up Monroe's career as a PF... he ain't one! For his sake and ours, he needs to go to a team that will play him at the 5!

@DX - As Don said, why play Lucas(when Dinwiddie is clearly the better PG, IMO), and we could extend that statement to why NOT play QM at SF when the other two SF's are ancient! SVG claims that QM may not be able to guard 3's well, which may be true, I haven't seen him enough, but that's not fully the question. Can he hold his own enough to win the matchup, because right now, we're losing the matchup anyway, so if he's developmental, then develop! There is likely a valid reason, but a decision should be made soon.

@Lemonpen - I totally agree that making the playoffs trumps anything else including a higher draft pick! That sets the tone for the entire organization going forward, and brings the players back next year with their chests out just a little bit farther! It's impossible to duplicate that experience and the street cred that comes with it for a young team! I believe that the greater expectations of success will produce greater results in the long run.

@Stones - I think the competition between the two would be good to have, but while I saw what you did, I'm not sure of the reasons. In transition, you don't need to know the personnel, it's just get the ball to the player in the best position to score, or score yourself.

In the half court(for a PG), two additional issues come into paly. First, you need to have a command of the full playbook, and I'm 100% sure Jackson isn't nearly there yet. Second, a PG needs to know his personnel in addition to what's going on in the game. Who to look off in critical situation, who's in their sweet spot and when to deliver the ball, and when you need to take over.

When a PG isn't in command of these things, he does what everybody else does in a crisis... revert to what you do best, and in his case, he want to do it himself.

The other mistake he makes is believing too much in KCP, having witnessed that display in OKC by KCP and knowing that KCP is better than he is from deep.

So is it growing pains or something else? IMO, it's too early to call, but something that we should keep an eye on!

[Go Stones!]

He is as selfish as Jennings used to be. Stan has 1/2 season to see how selfish he is. Only a few assists and a ball hog. I'll take Jennings going forward as Jackson has a lot of growing up to do.

[lemonpen]

1) Jackson is outstanding in transition (witness his clever, delayed, pass to a running Monroe) BUT he looks mediocre in half court play.  In the first half, the Knicks missed so many (easy) shots that the Pistons got transition opportunities; with the teams beating up on each other and the tempo slowing, something good needed in happen in slow tempo.  Didn't happen.

2) Monroe had outstanding numbers BUT (as Don described) he was a big part of the problem in his inability to cover a outstanding shooting PF.  And Gallinari proved able to punish Monroe when he came out with an impressive rush and dunk.

3) Drummond is the best offensive rebounder in the league for the second year running BUT he's not good at shielding rebounders on the other hand.  I think Amundson ended up with 9 offensive rebounds, one for each NBA team he's played for.

You can point to a number of good things that happened, but in all Detroit deserved to lose to the worst team in the league.  At a most inconvenient time too, with the upcoming schedule combined with playoff aspirations.  Not the worst thing to be part of the lottery again, I guess.

We've reached that point in the season where "value of making the playoffs" becomes a relevant topic.
This year I believe there is more value in having the experience than not.  We have a group of dudes we're ready to label as core and it's high time they dip their beaks in the pool of greater expectations.  They need some success to build on. They also need to  understand how much farther there is to go after an embarrassing playoff exit.  A playoff loss can add weight to Stans words.

Equally important, the organization needs the reassurance and financial boost of a short playoff run.  Just a little something to let Gores know we are on the right track.  We can be Cinderella for a week.

[lemonpen]

Playing to the level of your competition. Or in this case BELOW the level. Really, are there many things less inspiring in sports than taking the opponent for granted, and being wrong.

That pretty much wipes out any playoff boost we earned from beating the Bulls and Wizards. We're not so young that this is excusable.

[Sparma]

1) Jackson is outstanding in transition (witness his clever, delayed, pass to a running Monroe) BUT he looks mediocre in half court play. In the first half, the Knicks missed so many (easy) shots that the Pistons got transition opportunities; with the teams beating up on each other and the tempo slowing, something good needed in happen in slow tempo. Didn't happen.

2) Monroe had outstanding numbers BUT (as Don described) he was a big part of the problem in his inability to cover a outstanding shooting PF. And Gallinari proved able to punish Monroe when he came out with an impressive rush and dunk.

3) Drummond is the best offensive rebounder in the league for the second year running BUT he's not good at shielding rebounders on the other hand. I think Amundson ended up with 9 offensive rebounds, one for each NBA team he's played for.

You can point to a number of good things that happened, but in all Detroit deserved to lose to the worst team in the league. At a most inconvenient time too, with the upcoming schedule combined with playoff aspirations. Not the worst thing to be part of the lottery again, I guess.

[cool breeze]

This was a humbling loss for this group of Pistons. In the end it was lack of ability to defend along with poor decision making on offense. Why did Pope launch that low percentage 3 point shot with 10 seconds left in the shot clock when Detroit had a 5 point lead in regulation? The result was an air ball and allowed the Knicks another 10 big seconds to catch up. If our team had not taken a shot, we would have won the game in that possession. The timing of the shot and the shot selection was telling. Yet perhaps our Pistons were lucky to have built that 5 point lead in the first place because the offense looked pitiful for the entire 2nd half of that game. Low percentage shot after low percentage shot was the norm. The offense was predictable much like the 2nd half of the Cleveland game. No screening and bad floor spacing with players appearing as if they had never played together.

It is killing me to watch Lucas take over the second unit's point guard spot. He can't defend and runs up the court straight into a double team. Van Gundy wants to push the basketball but does he want that after the other team scores? Lucas over penetrates and plays much like Will Bynum. Meanwhile, Spencer Dinwiddie takes the blame for the Cleveland loss and goes to the bench. Spencer had the 2nd unit working well giving his teammates time to get their correct spacing and set a few screens to get the offense looking like something other than street basketball. Is this what Stan Van Gundy wants with Lucas running the show. How many times did he screw up and make mistakes on defense in the 2nd half last night? The offense looks horrible with him as the director. Stan has signed him for the rest of the season so it appears that we will see a lot more of him.

Monroe might have had some great stats in this game but he was a big reason why our Pistons lost. We all know why? Monroe once again showed the world that he cannot guard a power forward. He also made some horrible passes but many of his teammates were also guilty of that. Monroe also didn't secure critical rebounds in crunch time. Drummond can get over aggressive and jump out to a jump stop instead of keeping control of his body allowing his man to go around him at times but Monroe is guilty of lack of energy on defense like the old days of his career with the Pistons. Monroe will move on to another team and fans won't notice his flaws for awhile and I am sure that is what he wants.

Jackson played a horrible game until the last few minutes of regulation. The small forwards were so bad that Van Gundy went with Meeks, Jackson and Pope in crunch time. That won't work with many teams. One thing Singler did give the Pistons was good help defense. He also knocked around opponents in the paint on offense when he ran through from side to side. Now the center of the paint has bee clogged in the 2nd half of the last two games. Nobody is hitting anyone. Our guys look like a pack of fragile non combatants. Our power forward gets his shot blocked close to the basket and he is afraid to shoot it from outside 5 feet. Opponents can over play our guards. No screening is attempted. But the defense overall might be the worst in the entire league right now. Detroit might stay in the basement as Indiana beat Cleveland and their star player is making a comeback. If we lose, why lose with Lucas????????????

[deusXango]

Why'd SVG sign Quincy Miller from the D-League only to return him to the D-League before the Knicks game (of all the teams not to allow a young prospect to get his feet wet), but he says he's a developmental player? He's shown what he can do in the D-League, now let's see what he can do in a Pistons uniform (damn those other losers...unless SVG puts himself in the same class as those coaches) and then send him down; bad karma comes from this type of sh!t.

Hoping for the best and refusing to speak negative about the future, I couldn't believe what I was witnessing....a Philly flashback!

Don, I owe you a big apology; I didn't think we could be worse off at SF than what Singler was bringing and I was dead wrong! That arrogant, egotistical statement Tay made at his presser; "things got strange in Memphis and I wasn't playing...I wasn't even in the rotation, if you can believe it." After last night, hell to the yes! While your punk-ass was out of the rotation, the Grizzlies were steamrolling their way through the NBA, and if you noticed, you ended up in Boston. You don't want to be in Detroit? Bye, bye, don't let the door hit 'ya.

I could very well be wrong, but there's no way in hell Miller wouldn't have scored in the game, if given the time Prince or Butler got, but he's in the D-League and SVG is playing veterans only (no matter how old they are). SVG's propensity to f@ck over talent, for whatever reason, can't come to any good end; why can't we see a 22 year old 6 foot 10 scoring machine, and I ain't talking about Shawne Williams....why was Miller talked about as a PF before Williams arrived, all 215 lbs. of him, and never apparently looked at as a SF? Does SVG want the playoffs or does he want the lottery?

[Oracle]

OMFG!!!

[merc]

Why'd SVG sign Quincy Miller from the D-League only to return him to the D-League before the Knicks game (of all the teams not to allow a young prospect to get his feet wet), but he says he's a developmental player? He's shown what he can do in the D-League, now let's see what he can do in a Pistons uniform (damn those other losers...unless SVG puts himself in the same class as those coaches) and then send him down; bad karma comes from this type of sh!t.

Maybe so he can learn the current system while getting some PT... just a guess

[Oracle]

Why'd SVG sign Quincy Miller from the D-League only to return him to the D-League before the Knicks game (of all the teams not to allow a young prospect to get his feet wet), but he says he's a developmental player? He's shown what he can do in the D-League, now let's see what he can do in a Pistons uniform (damn those other losers...unless SVG puts himself in the same class as those coaches) and then send him down; bad karma comes from this type of sh!t.

@DX - I agree, this makes no sense at all!

Sending a guy on a 10 day contract from the D-League, only to send him back??? WTF???

I'm not feeling that move, unless he's seen enough and doesn't want him. In that case, no need to keep looking at him, just get him the hell out of dodge and he can stay there when the 10 day runs out!

If that happens then QM will be MIA for the rest of the season!

@Merc - Early blowout? Hell yeah, I'll be shocked if that isn't the case by halftime!

[deusXango]

Why'd SVG sign Quincy Miller from the D-League only to return him to the D-League before the Knicks game (of all the teams not to allow a young prospect to get his feet wet), but he says he's a developmental player? He's shown what he can do in the D-League, now let's see what he can do in a Pistons uniform (damn those other losers...unless SVG puts himself in the same class as those coaches) and then send him down; bad karma comes from this type of sh!t.

[merc]

Hope to see an early blowout tonight... maybe see the new kids on the block

[Oracle]

[Oracle]

Keeping Moose is 100% a financial issue, don't get it wrong!

We don't want to keep Moose anywhere near the max because we're likely to give Jackson the max or near max, because someone may offer it to him, and we'll certainly match it!

Then we have Drummond coming up next, and he WILL get the max, then KCP will also have to be dealt with, so we simply can't afford Moose with cheaper options out there that may fit the system even better.

So while I would love to keep Moose and see him grow, the chances are really not good that it will happen.

BTW, I think Moose would look a lot better playing with Anthony Davis to take the pressure off of him and allow him to only do the things he does well. We can't offer him that!

All the rest of the discussion is blowing off steam about the past and venting, which can be good, but don't lose sight of the bigger issue!

[WTF]

So Van Gundy might have to pay up because Jackson is looking for close to max money as well......
Well, well. Well, well. A breath of fresh air and something that makes sense. Question? Who's the better player (all things considered) and more deserving of a max or close to max contract, Monroe or Jackson? A little honest thinking please.

IMO neither are worth a max nor near mx deal but for very different reasons. I won't even go into why Moose isn't but as for Jackson he has proven that he's beyond a 10M annually player simply because of his body of work thus far. Though he's starting for us that could be argued if a healthy Jennings was still playing and in fact would we have made that trade at all if he was. Jennings making 8 a season barely are we going to pay Jackson more and if so would it really be at a near max deal? No would be my answer.

But if I had a brain fart who would I be willing to risk that kind of money on Moose or Jackson then I'll tell you now it would be Jackson because Moose ass can easily be replace once you take off the rose colored glasses while gazing at his sorry ass.

[WTF]

I have never seen a big man spend so much time dodging having any kind of moment than Moose ass does. But like I said most fans tend to ignore the obvious and cling onto the accidental big moments as if it's some type of norm or a sign of some unforeseen potential waiting to explode from this guy and that is so not the case when it comes to Moose.

No matter how many scrub playing, role playing, less than average PF kicks on his ass consistently night in and night out some of you just love him. You all see it for yourselves all the time where some equally sized PF or slightly bigger PF whips on his ass. You all see him shy away from the moment on a 8 footer wide open, you all see him getting bullied in the post and still you all expects some miracle to happen where his heart and effort grow ten-fold and he becomes this imaginary dominate force.

Moose is basically a role player himself but sadly wants to be recognized as something more than that. How can you want big time money but be big time when it comes to effort and shining under pressure of a 8 footer. That's bullsh!t and many of you know it but simply won't admit it because in your minds not to root and hope for the best is not being a real fan when you point out the obvious flaws.

I know I've been called harsh but I'm not here to make excuses for players or add perfume to their smelly performances to try and make smell better than what it is, if it stinks it stinks. Some stuff you can attribute to youth, and some stuff is character you can almost learn anything or become better at it over time but if your character defines you as lazy or as being a coward then you're likely stuck. Sooner or later if Andre continues on floundering in areas where he should already be showing some improvement I'm going to turn on his ass as well.

We put too much into potential on players with serious character flaws that will ultimately have negative impact on their development then we want to blame coaches for it. The pre-draft on Moose was that he was lazy but have all the potential in the world if he tries hard and put forth the effort. Lazy and effort don't seem to mix well together but we still took a chance and some of you are willing to go another 5 season to see if it's going to change. I'm almost willing to bet that if we gave Anthony all Moose's minutes he would produce similar stats and likely more consistently.

[deusXango]

Sidebar: Will this path work for Drummond?

They're trying to get Dre to be an offensive weapon AND a defensive wizard, and, IMO, neither is working! On a nightly basis, since I have league pass, I see far less talented centers performing way better than Dre with about the same level of experience.

This way may work, but I do wonder if they should just focus on one end of the floor first(preferably defense) and master it before trying to do everything at once.

Just saying...

Truer words were never spoken Oracle! I've often wondered why fans wanted Drummond to be Mr. Everything, particularly with the reputation he came into the league with and considering his age. In the modern game if Drummond could average 20 rebounds, block 2 shots a game, and be an intimidator on the inside, he'd get his own offense naturally (13-15 points off put-backs, and P & R plays) and become one of the most dangerous big men in the game....just work on those damn FT's!!!!

[deusXango]

Greg is still afraid to shoot the GOT DAMN Basketball!! He was by far, the WEAKEST LINK the other night.
WHAT?! A 6 foot 11 (call him what you want to C/PF) who's afraid to shoot in a professional basketball game is a max player, in your mind? Sh!t.

For me it comes down to this. Can Detroit allow G.Monroe to walk away without anything? In my opinion, NO!
IMO if we pay more than $12 million a year for 4 years, we're f@cked and SVG/Bower ain't all that as a president and GM. If his demands are more than that, we should run his ass out of town and deal with repairing something that needs repairing now, quite as it's kept.

Take Monroe and add A 18 feet jumper to his game and I'm OK with he and Drummonds for the next 10+ years. Van Gundy will make sure he has A shooting 4 to come off the bench in those Kevin Love situations. I'm not worried about it.
Just add a jumper, after 5 years in the league? That sounds more like a cake recipe than player development. Explain this to me, math expert, we pay Moose the max and then turnaround and pay a quality stretch 4 to come off the bench, to compete with the big boys, is how much total? You ain't worried or you don't care about the progress of the Pistons, which is it?

Is Monreo A max guy in Detroit? NO! Is he A max guy some place else around the NBA like NY? Yes.. He is A max player.
If the Moose is not a max player here, why would we pay him max money? Here's a newsflash for you, NY AIN'T SH!T and Monroe won't move the needle for them; what's the point in worrying about the Knicks "stealing" Monroe from us?

So Van Gundy might have to pay up because Jackson is looking for close to max money as well......
Well, well. Well, well. A breath of fresh air and something that makes sense. Question? Who's the better player (all things considered) and more deserving of a max or close to max contract, Monroe or Jackson? A little honest thinking please.

Sentimentality got us in the mess that SVG is trying to clean up now and immature sentiment won't help his cause at all. Don't mean to attack, but that's the way things are. If Monroe goes, I wish him well, but I'm not for keeping him at the expense of being stuck-up and hamstrung for years.

[cool breeze]

I still have this disturbing memory of the game at the Palace last season when Mr. Gores honored The Bad Boys. Any current member of the Pistons at the time should have had a surge of spirit and energy watching those great players speak before the adoring crowd. I expected after halftime, we Piston fans could expect a surge of energy and hard work by the current players when they came out in the 3rd quarter. Zeke got the crowd into it as well getting us Piston fans all juiced up with high expectations. But once the 3rd quarter started within one minute I watched Greg Monroe walk back on defense. Then Josh Smith played the laziest basketball that I had ever seen him play. He made stupid decisions and then jogged back on defense competing with Monroe for regarding giving the weakest effort. Jennings was horrible as well especially on defense. There was no defensive effort by at least 3 players, Monroe, Smith and Jennings in the entire 3rd quarter. And the Bad Boys had to be steaming watching those cowards fake playing basketball before the packed Palace. Then there were the young guys like Pope and Drummond who visibly looked ashamed to be on the court that day. To me those vets who wore the Piston uniform showed their true character as human beings and basketball players. They lacked the basic thing any quality basketball player needs to have to be successful. PASSION TO PLAY THE GAME WAS JUST NOT THERE. I wonder if Stan Van Gundy ever watched that basketball game. Did our vet players have problems with alcohol or some other bad habit that prohibited them from being real basketball players that day? Can you imagine as Piston fans how you would feel if you had the chance to play in that game for the Pistons? Those vets didn't care much. They accepted getting their asses kicked with a smile on their faces. Give me my paycheck please. That is what they were saying to themselves that day.

When I think of Greg Monroe and reflect on that game when he clearly tanked, and then recall the effort he has given this season, I have to wonder who is the real Greg Monroe??? Who will he be next season? Can you in your wildest imagination ever think that Ben Wallace would give a lack luster effort on the day the Bad Boys are being celebrated? There was something telling to me about character the way some of our Piston players played that day. I do not trust that Greg Monroe will dedicate himself to getting any better especially on defense. How can anyone believe that Greg Monroe will ever do the work in the off season that he needs to do to make his team better? If you believe so, please speak up now. Monroe was horrible in a big game against Cleveland. Labron's guys exploited Greg Monroe's weaknesses. After Greg Made several mistakes, he didn't change up anything he was doing. He tried low percentage passes that caused turnovers. He held the basketball with the shot clock expiring afraid to shoot an 8 foot jump shot and passed the ball back to Spencer Dinwiddie with 2 or 3 seconds left saying hey Spencer you deal with it. Dinwiddie worked hard to get Greg the ball and that is what happened. Monroe had his shot blocked so many times he became afraid to shoot. His defense was horrible all night. This team could be great if Greg Monroe was a dedicated hard working smart basketball player. He and Drummond are the keys to the Kingdom this season. Unless he makes a huge turnaround, my bet is that Stan Van Gundy will say so long to Greg and that will be the correct decision.

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