KCP & Monroe

[Oracle]

Pistons No. 1 pick’s quick learning curve makes him a starting candidate

EDIT: Obviously what Don keeps stressing... DEFENSE, really made the difference for KCP, and is what may get him into the starting lineup!

Yikes, trouble brewing in the payroll future! Monroe has next, but once Drummond hits(with Smith still around), will they break the bank?

How Nikola Pekovic's $60 million deal impacts Pistons, Greg Monroe

Bottom Line: The Pistons better win something QUICK!!!

[Oracle]

I LOVE it!

Folks have complained about the font, but I love the concept!

[Oracle]

The Madness IMO comes with the expectations of every single player on the team is expected to be able to deliver on both ends. Truth is we never boasted a team of perfectionists our Championship teams didn't even boast a player that was doing it on both end of the court at every single position.

Look at Dennis and Mark, the complete opposite of players but both very necessary.  Mark couldn't defend if his life depended on it, and Dennis wasn't an offensive scoring machine but we couldn't do it with out them. What we had were highly serviceable role player on both our Championship teams.  

When I look at Drummond I say he could be everything that Big Ben was but better, people are quick to point out Drummonds lack of offensive skills but offensively he's already more talented than Big Ben ever was.  When I hear people being critical of Josh outside shooting at either SF or PF position all I can say is that neither Prince or Wallace were shooting lights out forget that Josh is boasting better scoring and rebound than both.

Is Stuckey any less valuable than the likes of Hunter or James? Is Charlie all that different from Corliss or Salley?

I find myself in 100% agreement with Wise on this one!

Lemon made some great points, but Wise is speaking at the top level, all other things being equal, his theory is exactly the one I have about players!

When a player does it all, they're likely called LeBron James or some other super star, and even they have flaws!

Stuckey has a well defined skill that we will miss when he's gone, but he does need to go for his own career development! CV just plain needs to go, but while he's here, we don't need him to defend like Drummond, we just need to use him when we need 3 point shooting, and if he isn't hitting, sit his ass down!

If Drummond does nothing other than defend, block and steal, at least we deny the other team from scoring while we figure out how to score ourselves!

The question marks on this team sit squarely on the offensive end... will we be able to score enough to win consistently!

Defensively, this team is stacked when Drummond and Smith are on the floor! Teams will struggle unless their shooting lights out on the perimeter(then we'll likely miss Knight a bit).

The game is moving to a lot of specialists, especially when subbing, so it's hard to expect everyone to be great on both ends, but you can demand consistency of effort if not results!

[lemonpen]

The Madness IMO comes with the expectations of every single player on the team is expected to be able to deliver on both ends. Truth is we never boasted a team of perfectionists our Championship teams didn't even boast a player that was doing it on both end of the court at every single position.

Look at Dennis and Mark, the complete opposite of players but both very necessary.  Mark couldn't defend if his life depended on it, and Dennis wasn't an offensive scoring machine but we couldn't do it with out them. What we had were highly serviceable role player on both our Championship teams.  

When I look at Drummond I say he could be everything that Big Ben was but better, people are quick to point out Drummonds lack of offensive skills but offensively he's already more talented than Big Ben ever was.  When I hear people being critical of Josh outside shooting at either SF or PF position all I can say is that neither Prince or Wallace were shooting lights out forget that Josh is boasting better scoring and rebound than both.

Is Stuckey any less valuable than the likes of Hunter or James? Is Charlie all that different from Corliss or Salley?

Great Point. Theoretically it is the best OVERALL contributors at each position who get the nod. Not simply the best 5 defenders.
But something we have wrap our minds around is that other influences will muddy the decision making.
Factors like:
- experience (knowing the competition, understanding how to grind)
- on court reliability (ability to maintain consistent level of performance despite rigors of constant travel)
- recognition (adapting to all teammates)
- management expectations (pressure to WIN NOW)
- the ability to accept riding the pine, then perform at a decent level when called upon
- GM's need for pre-trade showcasing
- managing outside demands (family, endorsements, engagements)

[deusXango]

"Gores does need to hold Dumars accountable for what happens to the Pistons. If this team doesn’t at least come extremely close to making the playoffs next season and if the moves that Dumars made backfire, then some major changes are needed. Gores was disappointed that last year’s team finished 29-53. He’s going to be even more disappointed if they’re not much better this season."-Rant Sports 08/14/2013

"If this team doesn't at least come extremely close to making the playoffs next season," WTF does that imply exactly??!! As a fan what I'm hearing is that I should prepare myself for still another season of disappointment and there'll be nothing worth cheering for....probably. That's a hell of a thought, after all that Joe's done to improve this team, and it begins placing pressure on Cheeks for results; this should give our coach every incentive to be his own man, and make the decisions he's comfortable with, regardless what Joe wants done with his rotation.

Wise made some timely references about the past players, compared to todays, but I remember Chuck Daly staying at odds with Jack McCloskey over not playing William Bedford; Willie B. was quite a talent, but the Pistons won consistently without him! He was in the way with flaws, that Chuck realized he had, and those flaws would have held the team back. If CV hasn't earned his money by now, he would have to make the All-Star team this year in order to make that contract worthwhile, or Joe should admit that he made a blunder, and pay him to sit (like Maggette) because he can't/shouldn't trade him. As a fan, I'd rather see Mitchell. If Joe doesn't move Stuckey, before the season starts, he should play a minimal role in favor of developing KCP; that development would require extended PT that a player, who won't/shouldn't be here 2-3 years from now, would get. Hopefully Cheeks is more man than to play a player who's going to be playing for another contract here, over a player, who's a lottery pick, that can develop into an elite player at a specific position of need; SG. I said can, not would! Whatever minutes Bynum would get should be given to Siva, if he's not in the rotation. These are some of the type coaching decisions I've hungered for, but have been let down by not seeing; puppets can't do anymore than they're directed to do.

[WTF]

The Madness IMO comes with the expectations of every single player on the team is expected to be able to deliver on both ends. Truth is we never boasted a team of perfectionists our Championship teams didn't even boast a player that was doing it on both end of the court at every single position.

Look at Dennis and Mark, the complete opposite of players but both very necessary. Mark couldn't defend if his life depended on it, and Dennis wasn't an offensive scoring machine but we couldn't do it with out them. What we had were highly serviceable role player on both our Championship teams.

When I look at Drummond I say he could be everything that Big Ben was but better, people are quick to point out Drummonds lack of offensive skills but offensively he's already more talented than Big Ben ever was. When I hear people being critical of Josh outside shooting at either SF or PF position all I can say is that neither Prince or Wallace were shooting lights out forget that Josh is boasting better scoring and rebound than both.

Is Stuckey any less valuable than the likes of Hunter or James? Is Charlie all that different from Corliss or Salley?

[deusXango]

Why did we have to give up on Middleton as well as Knight? Why are we now looking for a back-up big man as the result of trading for a $8 million a year player? If Stuckey is all that, wouldn't Hammond know it? Why not a straight up trade, and receive the expiring contract that Stuckey has? Is this twice this year that a GM has turned down an offer for Stuckey, and if so, why are we still holding onto this insane idea that he's quite a player? The answer to these questions point to fact that Joe got snookered again; first by Jordan, then by Hammond. Pathetic if true. Excellent piece Don.

Oracle, I'm in your camp supporting standing behind Jennings, if for no other reason, he's our PG!! I'm so sick of hearing what's wrong with our players being highlighted instead of how they have the makings of a dominate team. We talk about the inability of Drummond, Monroe, and Smith to share the space in the paint, but one thing for damn sure is, Drummond led what was becoming the most devastating 2nd unit in the NBA, with a lot less talent than is now available; why not continue to bring him along slow with Mitchell, and Siva? Just a thought, and another thought is, why the hell not?! The real problem I had last year was Drummond playing behind Maxiell, who I knew wasn't the talent Dre' was, but this year with Monroe, and Smith in the starting lineup and Drummond getting more than 20 minutes a night, I know we're not a 29 win team.

Speaking of wins, IMHO, the reason a panel of 200 think that our Pistons won't make the playoffs is due to the fact Joe resigned Bynum, can't find an upgrade for Jerebko, brought back Billups (for no more than sentimental reasons), and is going to stick with Stuckey for "one more year." Even with the great changes Joe made, he still managed to shot himself in the foot; too many guards, and not enough big men. If these were top tier guards, okay, but for the most part, they suck; they're middling 3rd tier guards and that's being generous!! Now if history is a true gauge of what's to be expected from Cheeks as a coach, he'll be no more than a mannequin to be manipulated by Joe; Stuckey or Billups starts, Bynum plays more than he should, CV will play (in the name of trying to garner interest by the trade deadline), and Singler, and Jerebko will play, because of their experience, all while the future watches from the bench, learning how to loose. If Joe doesn't do an adequate job as GM, why does he insist on keeping his hand in our coaches business? I've said it before and I'll say it again, a Pistons team that features Stuckey in a prominent role, will not win!!!

[Oracle]

Pistons ready to make mark on Central Division

Damn Tigers going into extra innings , I'm tired!!!

[Oracle]

Is it so hard to be above the silly barbs being thrown around against good players?

I'm glad we have Jennings and I want him to succeed in the worst way. No, he isn't perfect, and he's inferior to Knight in a lot of ways that are important, but he's also superior to Knight in a lot of ways that are important.

This silliness of putting either player down is where the madness lies! It's not really a question of who is better at what, it's a question of what we need now, and as much as I like Knight, Jennings is the PG we need now!

There's no need to make a player look or seem bad to elevate another one! The thing to do is wish each player well because to do otherwise is small and petty!

Stuckey can be a very good guard, but he needs what Jennings got... a fresh start!

CV & Bynum are what they are and both have a place on teams, especially contending teams, LB would use both in specialized situations, otherwise they both would know the pine 90% of the time! They're both insurance, you know the type... BREAK GLASS IN CASE OF EMERGENCY!

BTW, both Hammond and Joe won big in this deal! Joe got the PG he needs for the talent he has and Hammond got a PG that needs to grow into the position!

This was a great trade for both organizations!

[WTF]

Joe was probably thinking he needed a PG who could pass the freaking ball and take over a game.

[cool breeze]

Just finished talking to a friend about this trade involving Knight and Jennings. He knows knight really well and his information has made me a Knight believer in the past. I am hoping that my friend is wrong about this trade but some of what he says does make sense. You win with defense in the NBA and that is no secret even though many fans ignore this fact. Hammond believes in this strongly and that is why he had no interest in signing Charlie V or Jennings. They are similar players in some ways especially when it comes to playing defense. Jennings had no college background which is important in this story. In all high level college programs, you just cannot get on the floor if you are a horrible defender. Charlie V's team won a national championship but he was the weakest big man defender on the team when he decided to turn pro. It was always a struggle for him in college to keep concentration and run hard down the court to set up where he was supposed to be. The Bucks had seen enough of Charlie and no other GM but good old Joe lined up to grab Charlie. Joe wasn't worried about either Gordon or Charlie because he decided that defense was not important and this still puzzles me to this day. Do any other GMs think this way? Jennings did not have the benefit of playing in a college program. He came straight from AAU ball where nobody plays defense and the game played in AAU is a very selfish shoot first game where players try to show off their offensive skills to secure a good college offer. Games are played like the NBA All Star game. So where in hell did Jennings learn how to defend or grasp any of the important principles of playing team orientated help defense? He never learned squat about playing defense. He is a gambler type defender who wants the glory of getting a steal to show off taking the ball end to end. That might happen in AAU but seldom does in the NBA especially when the games are on the line. Coming out of high school for instance, Labron James said that his biggest fear was not knowing how to play NBA style team defense. But Labron worked his ass off and has now become one of the best all time defenders in the game. James is blessed with a outstanding big body which has helped but he has had to really spend a lot of time thinking and working on his weaknesses. Jennings never was interested in getting better on defense with all that time on the Bucks team. So I am now reading Hammond's mind where he must have been thinking that getting Knight was a sure thing when he compared the two players. Joe Dumars has been gambling with the Detroit Pistons future and his hunches have been wrong because he is soft on defense. He signed Charlie and Gordon at a time when all other GMs were looking at the fact that those two players were extremely weak defenders. Whatever they might bring on offense is not worth what they cost the team on defense. My buddy believes that Joe Dumars had his ass handed to him once again by Hammond. As I look at the players currently under contract for Detroit I see a lot of guys who are questionable defenders. Guys who Joe has kept around for one reason or another have not really given themselves to the team in a way that it will be possible for them to be successful. So many people are so wrapped up in how a players executes on offense especially point guards on the Pistons. Why is that? The Pistons stood for one thing at one time where the owner was determined that the team was not going to be thought of as a team of cream puffs. But Joe Dumars has created the cream puff Pistons known as a group of weak willed players who seldom show up to play hard. If this team misses the playoffs and I now expect they will based on the lack of athletes who can defend, then Dumars might finally figure out that he has been had by his former co worker not once but twice. My friend left me with this thought. How can Jennings play during crunch time if he cannot defend anyone and lets other bigger guards shoot over him? What if Billups cannot play because of his injuries? Then the team is stuck with two guys Bynum and Stuckey to lead the way. Isn't this something that hasn't worked before Piston fans? Coach Cheeks will be having some sleepless nights for sure if Billups cannot grind out another solid year. The silver lining of this might be Peyton Siva who could save the day for the Pistons come March and April. He is smart, unselfish and he is a good defender who knows what it takes to win. I believe that Siva is a player a coach could learn to trust in crunch time when most games are won or lost. If Stuckey, Bynum and Charlie V are the players the new coach puts on the floor, then why not bring back the teal uniforms and let Jason Collins give a sensitive talk after all the games?

[WTF]

No I wasn't overly excited by the play of Stuckey, Charlie, or Bynum but there impact in games far outweighed what Singler, JJ and Knight brought each night. I can at least say that those three have at some point carried the team to a victory. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea of defensive genius from both Knight and Singler

[lemonpen]

- the 9th place projection should add another log to our fire.

- wise makes an accurate point on Kyle being weak and slow- ish. Certainty slowish for a sg. The beauty of summer is that it creates an opportunity for change that won't be realized for months. I wonder if Joe will have the patience to see.

- wild prediction. KCP will start.

- our bu C better be able to start in a pinch

[cool breeze]

Don my comments only express just how much I was unimpressed with what Singler brought last season and as for JJ when your rookie season is your best season going into a 5th season it really doesn't say much.  JJ spent half of season getting DNP's and half the previous season netting the same results.  The notion that JJ is a high IQ player is false.

I watch Singler get abused at the SG and SF positions last season.  Singler is not quick, and not physically strong at his natural position of SF. I will say he's smart as a player but so was Mike Curry and it didn't make him a star player either.   Singler made a lot of dumb rookie mistakes and that's normal but who's to say he'll moved beyond them in his second season.  IMO he showed nothing that say's he's bette than either Mitchell or Datome.

Let me make this clear, my suggesting of trading Singler and JJ is to simply acquire the back up center we need and they both could be sacrificed. At this point non of them are starter and won't be impact players or be candidates for Sixth Man Awards.  I doubt if Cheeks will be going beyond 10 players in his rotation (Monroe, Smith, Drummond, Jennings, Stuckey, Billups, Charlie, Bynum and whatever backup center he finds) These 9 will likely be the players that have the most impact on the team.  Pope is a #8 pick and you would hope he has some impact, and Mitchell was projected be a first rounder so you can almost expect the same.  

Wisefan if Charlie, Rodney and Will are part of the rotation than maybe that is why ESPN decided that Detroit will not make the playoffs. You might be correct and in that event I will try not to watch the team play as much this season. If that will be the players who represent the Pistons this season we will have some real low IQ guys out there again who will flounder around playing the street ball thing. To keep my sanity I will have to watch teams like Golden State and Indiana more. Cheeks said that his plan is to wait and see who plays the best before he determines who stays and who goes or who sits the bench. But again you might be correct that everything is determined beforehand and it doesn't matter how the players perform. By the way is your statement correct regarding Jerebco? Is this his 5th season? I thought that he played the rookie season and then sat out his second season because of the injury and last season was actually his 2nd season playing in the NBA. So if this is true, Jerebco will actually be playing in his 3rd season. Am I wrong? I get your feeling though that you have seen enough of both Singler and Jerebco. They can't cut it in your eyes. Everyone sees things differently when it comes to basketball. I respect that Wisefan. But as you were not impressed with Singler and Jerebco, it appears that you were impressed with Stuckey, Bynum and Charlie V. And did Singler make too many rookie mistakes on defense or offense? There were no plays created for him on offense last season. He could have shot the ball better. I agree with that statement but he sure didn't get many touches on offense. The Piston coaching staff rated Singler as one of the two best defenders on the team with Knight being the other good defender. Jerebco was also rated as a good defender. Bynum, Stuckey and Charlie V must have improved a lot over this summer regarding their ability to defend. I think that any coach would want to have a guy like Singler on their team who can play multiple positions and defend all of them well. But Dumars has a history of removing guys who play effective defense and that might be where you are coming from when thinking about what happened with Affalo. A lot of posters thought Affalo sucked when he wore the Piston uniform. Joe must have listened.

[WTF]

Don my comments only express just how much I was unimpressed with what Singler brought last season and as for JJ when your rookie season is your best season going into a 5th season it really doesn't say much. JJ spent half of season getting DNP's and half the previous season netting the same results. The notion that JJ is a high IQ player is false.

I watch Singler get abused at the SG and SF positions last season. Singler is not quick, and not physically strong at his natural position of SF. I will say he's smart as a player but so was Mike Curry and it didn't make him a star player either. Singler made a lot of dumb rookie mistakes and that's normal but who's to say he'll moved beyond them in his second season. IMO he showed nothing that say's he's bette than either Mitchell or Datome.

Let me make this clear, my suggesting of trading Singler and JJ is to simply acquire the back up center we need and they both could be sacrificed. At this point non of them are starter and won't be impact players or be candidates for Sixth Man Awards. I doubt if Cheeks will be going beyond 10 players in his rotation (Monroe, Smith, Drummond, Jennings, Stuckey, Billups, Charlie, Bynum and whatever backup center he finds) These 9 will likely be the players that have the most impact on the team. Pope is a #8 pick and you would hope he has some impact, and Mitchell was projected be a first rounder so you can almost expect the same.

[cool breeze]

IMO I think the only question mark are with who starts in the back-court, but agree someone that we won't know for certain how the rotation of players will play out.  One thing is definite and certain is that the front-court needs a solid backup center which is why I think talking trade now is still viable.   Getting a true solid back via the trading of 2 tweeners like Singler and JJ who we either have a great knowledge of like JJ or some knowledge of like Singler give a more definitive idea of what the make up of the roster should be.  

We all know that Drummond, Monroe and Smith are all locks in the starting rotation, and you can almost say that Jennings will likely get the nod at PG, I think the biggest question is who makes it at the SG spot as a starter (Billups, or Stuckey). The problem with keeping guys like Singler, Bynum, and JJ are that they complicate the roster and the last thing Cheek needs is the same roster issues that plagued the two previous coaching staffs.  There are 4 rookies on the roster (Siva, Mitchell, KCP and Datome)  capable of providing the same level play as the previous three mention players.  Bynum, Singler and JJ should be able to land us solid F/C in trade.  

Trade needed before regular season starts.

How in hell do you know that the 4 rookies are as capable of providing the same level of play as Singler, Bynum and JJ? Where are your facts? I noticed that Mitchell has no idea as to where he is even supposed to be on either offense or defense based on his summer league play. He has no touch relating to shooting from 3 foot out. He is a raw talent right now but is not ready to play at the NBA level. He needs experience which is the one thing the three vet player you mentioned do have. I do not have a problem at all trading Bynum because I do believe that Siva is more valuable to the team than Bynum but then again Siva hasn't played one minute of NBA basketball yet. Singler and JJ are fun for me to watch because they are smart players who know how to play team orientated basketball. Those kind of players are important to any team who wants to make the playoffs. You have named two of the best team orientated defender on this team as players we don't need and are easily replaced. Other teams would like to get Singler and JJ for sure considering how they play the game and what they are being paid. Dumars gave away Affalo and Budinger so you might be reading Dumars mind Wisefan. If it does happen the team will lose a lot of IQ points and will end up being a team like the Washington W.

Because 2 of the 3 plays with the mentality of a rookie player. Advantage to Mitchell, Siva, Datome, and Pope who are obviously more talented and skilled.  What I notice Don is that you get far to caught up in this idea of "Hustle" and not really focus the flaws of players because you think perceived effort gives off the illusions of playing hard and great defense. This is the same illusions you had in favoring Knight  

Granted none of the rookies have played 1 NBA game to date, but JJ is 4 seasons in and he hasn't looked go since his rookie season, Singler is only one season into his NBA career but doesn't have enough talent to separate himself from any of the rookies coming in this season.  The only real debate we could have is Bynum being better than Siva but Siva talent and skill level at the PG is hard to ignore.  I admit I only watched 2 SL games but what I saw of Mitchell looks nothing like a player with raw talents, but the makings of a more capable offensive Worm Clearly he's already a far better defender than Singler and JJ based on your criteria of players you consider Hustle players.

I don't believe that I have used the word "hustle players" wisefan. Someone else must have said that. What I meant to say if it wasn't clear is that Singler and Jerebco are high IQ basketball players. They see the floor and know where they are supposed to be on both ends. And how in hell do you or anyone else know that Singler hasn't been able to separate himself in ability from the rookies? Only Siva has played on a winning college team and I am high on him as well. The rest played on really bad teams in college. Again Kyle was MVP on a national championship team as a junior. Those players have done squat Wisefan. Singler has been a starter at the NBA level at two different positions in his rookie season. Mitchell jumped high in the Summer league games but he sure didn't prove that he is the new "Worm". All this talk is hype and guess work. If you had watched Mitchell play last year in college you wouldn't be saying any of this stuff. He is very raw and inconsistent and lacks the knowledge or concentration you need to have to be a rotation player. I think he was a good pick and he has great physical ability. I hope he can get some minutes and take the role of a defensive stopper but I see him playing power forward against smaller power forwards for now if he does play this year. The statement you make that Singler hasn't separated himself from the rookies is really funny Wisefan. There hasn't even been a practice session yet and you have decided the way things should be and the way you want them to be. Why do you hate Singler and seem worried that the coach might give him a fair chance to play? I wouldn't want you to be my coach. And for all of you who want to get rid of Jerebco just think of this for a moment. We need an experienced power forward and Jerebco is a power forward who offers great quickness. Remember his first season as a rookie? This guy is a scraper and a good rebounder as well as a guy who moves well without the basketball on offense. He suffered a severe injury that usually takes two years to recover from. He tried to come back too soon and pushed himself too hard when he played for his Sweden team over the summer before training camp started last year. He was going through the typical thing players go through after coming off sitting out for an entire season. This is especially true with big men and the way Jerebco likes to play the game which is full out. I thought that he looked much better towards the end of the season last year. And this year he will be fully loaded and ready to play like the old Jerebco who was the fan favorite if you recall when the other slugs were faking playing the game. I like Jonas and expect the coach to give him a fair chance to make the rotation. He would fit in really well with a fast tempo second unit. He plays well with Singler because Singler will pass him the basketball and all other players who get themselves open. That has been an issue of Stuckey and others who have been very selective on who they pass the basketball to for the past 3 years. I crave team orientated basketball players who play with a high basketball IQ. I am tired of lame stupid players who have an agenda and play the opposite of smart. Both Singler and Jerebco are more than what you term "hustle" players. The good thing is that I trust Cheeks will do the right thing once the team is assembled and players start fighting for playing time. I don't like the idea of bringing in a guy like Perkins who is on his way out of the league due to failure of body parts. It would be a big mistake to give away a guy like Jerebco who is now ready to shine this year and is on his way up as opposed to Perkins who might not be able to beat Charlie V down the court to set up on the defensive end this season. That would be a good race to see who came in second.

[Oracle]

Jerebko is the perfect sweetener in a trade, to rid the team of Stuckey's presence, and hopefully put us in the 2014 draft or get us the 3rd big man fans have been talking about (Kendrick Perkins?).

Singler is the perfect 6th man for us now, due to his smarts, outside shot, and willingness to stay out of the way and allow Monroe, Smith, and Jennings do their thing, and play perimeter defense with KCP. He's the player that'll make it possible for Drummond to be announced with the starters, and after the game gets under way, be the polished, glue guy.

We need one, but not both of them, and IMHO, Singler is the most valuable of the two, particularly with what I see Mitchell bringing to the team. Don is right, hustle is important, but Wise makes a great point, you need to know what the hell you're doing out on the floor; case in point, our combo guards. Knight, Bynum, and Stuckey before them all, play a bi-polar game; they expend a lot of energy, but seem to not recognize that this is a team game.  

You made good points, then descended into questionable comments by lumping 3 guards in differing situations together.

Be that as it may, the overall point you made, and the under pinning of Wise's post is still valid, although you refined Wise's remarks to the point I find real agreement.

Singler is, IMO, by far the more solid player, and should be kept unless we get a deal that we can't pass on, but JJ is attractive because he does have talent and hustle and will work hard for somebody.

The problem for JJ is that this team now has talent oozing all over the court, and as you said, packaged with Stuckey, gives someone a guard and a big that may get our pick back!

Getting that pick back should be a priority for Joe as he's in the best bargaining position in years to do a deal!

Cheeks is going to have to Fu#k up really bad to screw this team up! It's almost impossible to get the frontcourt wrong, and the backcourt has at least one position slotted, so starting SG is the only wild card!

After that subbing gets tricky, but I'm optimistic that he'll figure it out!!!

[Oracle]

Who cares, that's old news! I almost didn't look, but now I'm glad I did!

Sometimes you forget just how great Chauncey was... here's a reminder!!!

[Go Stones!]

How long will it take for the 5'10'' Italian MVP SF assume the role of NBA stretch 4? I'd say this is Joe D's plan after CV is traded or has an expired contract.

I know someone mentioned that you can't assume someone is a PF b/c of size...he is a sharpshooter and he is tall. This is the equivalent to an NBA stretch 4. Even Prince had some burn at PF back in the day...

[deusXango]

Jerebko is the perfect sweetener in a trade, to rid the team of Stuckey's presence, and hopefully put us in the 2014 draft or get us the 3rd big man fans have been talking about (Kendrick Perkins?).

Singler is the perfect 6th man for us now, due to his smarts, outside shot, and willingness to stay out of the way and allow Monroe, Smith, and Jennings do their thing, and play perimeter defense with KCP. He's the player that'll make it possible for Drummond to be announced with the starters, and after the game gets under way, be the polished, glue guy.

We need one, but not both of them, and IMHO, Singler is the most valuable of the two, particularly with what I see Mitchell bringing to the team. Don is right, hustle is important, but Wise makes a great point, you need to know what the hell you're doing out on the floor; case in point, our combo guards. Knight, Bynum, and Stuckey before them all, play a bi-polar game; they expend a lot of energy, but seem to not recognize that this is a team game.

[WTF]

IMO I think the only question mark are with who starts in the back-court, but agree someone that we won't know for certain how the rotation of players will play out.  One thing is definite and certain is that the front-court needs a solid backup center which is why I think talking trade now is still viable.   Getting a true solid back via the trading of 2 tweeners like Singler and JJ who we either have a great knowledge of like JJ or some knowledge of like Singler give a more definitive idea of what the make up of the roster should be.  

We all know that Drummond, Monroe and Smith are all locks in the starting rotation, and you can almost say that Jennings will likely get the nod at PG, I think the biggest question is who makes it at the SG spot as a starter (Billups, or Stuckey). The problem with keeping guys like Singler, Bynum, and JJ are that they complicate the roster and the last thing Cheek needs is the same roster issues that plagued the two previous coaching staffs.  There are 4 rookies on the roster (Siva, Mitchell, KCP and Datome)  capable of providing the same level play as the previous three mention players.  Bynum, Singler and JJ should be able to land us solid F/C in trade.  

Trade needed before regular season starts.

How in hell do you know that the 4 rookies are as capable of providing the same level of play as Singler, Bynum and JJ? Where are your facts? I noticed that Mitchell has no idea as to where he is even supposed to be on either offense or defense based on his summer league play. He has no touch relating to shooting from 3 foot out. He is a raw talent right now but is not ready to play at the NBA level. He needs experience which is the one thing the three vet player you mentioned do have. I do not have a problem at all trading Bynum because I do believe that Siva is more valuable to the team than Bynum but then again Siva hasn't played one minute of NBA basketball yet. Singler and JJ are fun for me to watch because they are smart players who know how to play team orientated basketball. Those kind of players are important to any team who wants to make the playoffs. You have named two of the best team orientated defender on this team as players we don't need and are easily replaced. Other teams would like to get Singler and JJ for sure considering how they play the game and what they are being paid. Dumars gave away Affalo and Budinger so you might be reading Dumars mind Wisefan. If it does happen the team will lose a lot of IQ points and will end up being a team like the Washington W.

Because 2 of the 3 plays with the mentality of a rookie player. Advantage to Mitchell, Siva, Datome, and Pope who are obviously more talented and skilled. What I notice Don is that you get far to caught up in this idea of "Hustle" and not really focus the flaws of players because you think perceived effort gives off the illusions of playing hard and great defense. This is the same illusions you had in favoring Knight  

Granted none of the rookies have played 1 NBA game to date, but JJ is 4 seasons in and he hasn't looked go since his rookie season, Singler is only one season into his NBA career but doesn't have enough talent to separate himself from any of the rookies coming in this season. The only real debate we could have is Bynum being better than Siva but Siva talent and skill level at the PG is hard to ignore. I admit I only watched 2 SL games but what I saw of Mitchell looks nothing like a player with raw talents, but the makings of a more capable offensive Worm Clearly he's already a far better defender than Singler and JJ based on your criteria of players you consider Hustle players.

[cool breeze]

IMO I think the only question mark are with who starts in the back-court, but agree someone that we won't know for certain how the rotation of players will play out.  One thing is definite and certain is that the front-court needs a solid backup center which is why I think talking trade now is still viable.   Getting a true solid back via the trading of 2 tweeners like Singler and JJ who we either have a great knowledge of like JJ or some knowledge of like Singler give a more definitive idea of what the make up of the roster should be.  

We all know that Drummond, Monroe and Smith are all locks in the starting rotation, and you can almost say that Jennings will likely get the nod at PG, I think the biggest question is who makes it at the SG spot as a starter (Billups, or Stuckey). The problem with keeping guys like Singler, Bynum, and JJ are that they complicate the roster and the last thing Cheek needs is the same roster issues that plagued the two previous coaching staffs.  There are 4 rookies on the roster (Siva, Mitchell, KCP and Datome)  capable of providing the same level play as the previous three mention players.  Bynum, Singler and JJ should be able to land us solid F/C in trade.  

Trade needed before regular season starts.

How in hell do you know that the 4 rookies are as capable of providing the same level of play as Singler, Bynum and JJ? Where are your facts? I noticed that Mitchell has no idea as to where he is even supposed to be on either offense or defense based on his summer league play. He has no touch relating to shooting from 3 foot out. He is a raw talent right now but is not ready to play at the NBA level. He needs experience which is the one thing the three vet player you mentioned do have. I do not have a problem at all trading Bynum because I do believe that Siva is more valuable to the team than Bynum but then again Siva hasn't played one minute of NBA basketball yet. Singler and JJ are fun for me to watch because they are smart players who know how to play team orientated basketball. Those kind of players are important to any team who wants to make the playoffs. You have named two of the best team orientated defender on this team as players we don't need and are easily replaced. Other teams would like to get Singler and JJ for sure considering how they play the game and what they are being paid. Dumars gave away Affalo and Budinger so you might be reading Dumars mind Wisefan. If it does happen the team will lose a lot of IQ points and will end up being a team like the Washington W.

[deusXango]

DX, I have no problem with you or anybody speculating, that's what we do

But I think Lemonpen said two things that are VERY important.

"We should not be afraid of good healthy competition. Allow JJ and Kyle the opportunity to either prove their worth or make the next guy better.
I only hope Cheeks understands exactly what he wants from them." - Lemonpen

They talk a lot about competition, so letting it play out is critical, but the 2nd point is just as critical!

If Cheeks can't have a clear vision, or develop one before he makes any decisions, trouble will ensue!

Without that clear vision, he won't know what he needs from the role players, and it could lead to bad decision making.

At first glance, the obvious is to move both JJ & Singler because they appear to be the least talented! But that looks at talent as the only component of contributing, and it's generally the player with the best balance of talent and other skills.

That's why competition is good to let play out and knowing what you'll need in a player is critical!

Lemon, I first want to address you because your statements were so powerful that I fear many may miss the true impact on this team if they're ignored. Healthy competition should always be the hallmark of Pistons teams, followed by honest reward for winning out!! I've got the feeling that the most fit player(s), borne out through open competition, are not the player(s) who gets to play first, but the most politically popular player(s) gets the shot, in other words, favoritism rules the roost here. Secondly, the clear vision that you pointed out that Cheeks should have before decision making, as a coach, shouldn't be tainted by Joe's vision of how things should be ran; IMO the coach goes to the GM and tells him what he needs, not the GM going to the coach and telling him what he wants, as far as player personnel goes. Excellent points you made.

Oracle, there are enough talented players on this years roster that we don't necessarily need to mix Singler and Jerebko in, any more than we need CV to sharpen the talents of Smith, Monroe, Drummond, or Mitchell for that matter; Singler and J.J. aren't needed, albeit, they're quite talented for 3rd tier players. I mentioned Singler as a SF who received quality PT with Monroe and Smith in an earlier post, and that's because of his exceptional maturity and humility, coupled with an extremely high basketball I.Q. IMHO in addition to the skills displayed on the floor, intelligence of how the game is played should be a major factor in determining who wins out in the competition; for too long we've not been represented by high intelligence, as far as basketball goes.

[cool breeze]

DX, I have no problem with you or anybody speculating, that's what we do

But I think Lemonpen said two things that are VERY important.

"We should not be afraid of good healthy competition. Allow JJ and Kyle the opportunity to either prove their worth or make the next guy better.
I only hope Cheeks understands exactly what he wants from them." - Lemonpen

They talk a lot about competition, so letting it play out is critical, but the 2nd point is just as critical!

If Cheeks can't have a clear vision, or develop one before he makes any decisions, trouble will ensue!

Without that clear vision, he won't know what he needs from the role players, and it could lead to bad decision making.

At first glance, the obvious is to move both JJ & Singler because they appear to be the least talented! But that looks at talent as the only component of contributing, and it's generally the player with the best balance of talent and other skills.

That's why competition is good to let play out and knowing what you'll need in a player is critical!

What exactly does the word talent really mean. I read a lot about sports writers throwing this word out to describe athletes. Does talent mean testing high on those basic tests players go through in the draft combine? Does talent mean how well you dunk the basketball? How would Larry Bird fit in using this word? He was not very fast and he couldn't jump very high. Who has more talent on this Piston team than a guy like Singler for instance? How many current members of the Piston team have been named MVP of their NCAA college team after their team won the national championship? At the time when Singler won that award in his junior year in college no less, did anyone in the world of sports write anything about Singler's lack of talent? This is so damn funny to me as to how fans and sports writers make statements that have no basis of truth. I saw Singler play last season and I witnessed that he had a lot of talent when it came to playing organized basketball. No he will not win a slam dunk competition which is the most insane thing they have at the NBA All Star game. I describe the word talent when it comes to basketball as the skill it takes to play within a system and be effective on both offense and defense. Frank noticed that Singler had more talent than any of the other shooting guards and when Prince was traded there were no other players as talented as Singler who could play the 3. If Cheeks doesn't have this same insight into the game and how to rate players then God help us. There are thousands of incredibly blessed athletes who can do amazing physical things but somehow a high percentage of those blessed players just cannot put it together relating to the mental side of things on the basketball court. I think the real truth sign of a basketball talented person is the player who knows how to play defense at the highest level. Michael Jordan would say the same thing. Labron would also agree. Somehow Piston fans believe the weak links are Jerebco and Singler who happen to be two white players. And many of you ignore what Bynum actually brings to the table with this Piston team. And I noticed that Charlie V or Stuckey are not listed as guys who should go. Those guys must be really talented basketball players right???

[Oracle]

DX, I have no problem with you or anybody speculating, that's what we do

But I think Lemonpen said two things that are VERY important.

"We should not be afraid of good healthy competition. Allow JJ and Kyle the opportunity to either prove their worth or make the next guy better.
I only hope Cheeks understands exactly what he wants from them." - Lemonpen

They talk a lot about competition, so letting it play out is critical, but the 2nd point is just as critical!

If Cheeks can't have a clear vision, or develop one before he makes any decisions, trouble will ensue!

Without that clear vision, he won't know what he needs from the role players, and it could lead to bad decision making.

At first glance, the obvious is to move both JJ & Singler because they appear to be the least talented! But that looks at talent as the only component of contributing, and it's generally the player with the best balance of talent and other skills.

That's why competition is good to let play out and knowing what you'll need in a player is critical!

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