Ugggggg

[lemonpen]

From "Ask David" at mlive: "Besides, of the Pistons' two players with big expiring contracts, Villanueva is the one they might be interested in re-signing -- for a significantly reduced amount, of course -- particularly a trade were to materialize involving, say, Jonas Jerebko."

Dang, I need some time to wrap my mind around that possibility.

That makes my stomach hurt.

[lemonpen]

Don on Knight: Don, this was absolutely a panic move by Joe, and it's also a hail Mary, because if Jennings doesn't change, it's going to get ugly around here! Unlike the AI trade, Jennings has plenty of game left, and if he does change, he's going to be very good for us in a lot of areas that Knight wasn't.

However, I do agree that longer term, I think Knight is the better player, but being the better PG is debatable! I still think that we would have been better served(knowing what I know now) drafting Burke, but Joe was too scared to do that and live through Burke's learning curve!

Guys, I don't see the move as being "panic" driven or a "Hail Mary". I think it was more opportunistic and mostly driven by US getting Josh Smith. Despite how well he is thought to fit, most seem to acknowledge that Smith was the jewel of the FA class (given the league wide inaccessibility of Howard and Paul). Getting a talent like Smith (and Billups) accelerates our time table, so why not redefine (perhaps reduce) our risk from "will he (BK7) become the PG we hope, within this earlier opening window " to "can he (BJ) maximize PG skills already displayed".

Jennings offers us an opportunity to go high sooner.

[Oracle]

The article is on the side, but it's so short, I'll just display it below.

Old Team: Milwaukee Bucks
New Team: Detroit Pistons
Role: Starter

Best Case Scenario: Brandon Jennings didn’t want the Milwaukee Bucks, and the Bucks didn’t want Jennings. It worked out for both parties. Jennings will thrive with the Pistons. He will have a great backcourt mate with Rodney Stuckey, and a frontcourt with size and athleticism in Josh Smith and Greg Monroe. Jennings won’t be asked to carry the load like he was in Milwaukee. He should shoot much better than the 40 percent he did from the field last year. His numbers will dip below his normal averages, but his assists should get a boost with his new teammates. I see Jennings averaging about 15 points and 7 assists a game. He will have the Pistons fighting for one of the final playoff spots.

Worst Case Scenario: Jennings will shoot a horrible percentage, trying to fit in with his new teammates. He will get his numbers, but at the expense of the team in general. He’s never been known as a guy who really cares about winning, putting his individual statistics above all else. He will score 20 points a game, but his team will be at the bottom of the East.

What Will Really Happen: He will be the same player he was in Milwaukee. He will have his hot games, along with the many awful shooting nights. He will get his normal numbers of about 17 points a game and 6 assists. Jennings won’t help the Pistons get on top of the Eastern Conference anytime soon.

[Oracle]

Keith Langlois @Keith_Langlois

Huge game for @JonasJerebko (22 & 13 plus 2 steals, 2 assists) as Sweden routs Russia 81-62 for 1st Eurobasket win. Swedes now 1-2.
7 Sep 2013

[deusXango]

From "Ask David" at mlive: "Besides, of the Pistons' two players with big expiring contracts, Villanueva is the one they might be interested in re-signing -- for a significantly reduced amount, of course -- particularly a trade were to materialize involving, say, Jonas Jerebko."

Dang, I need some time to wrap my mind around that possibility.

Sparma, these are truly the days of dry bones. Don't waste your time trying to figure that out.

[Oracle]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  You can drive like an asshole or you can talk on the phone...  please don't do both!

[Oracle]

Say what?

From "Ask David" at mlive: "Besides, of the Pistons' two players with big expiring contracts, Villanueva is the one they might be interested in re-signing -- for a significantly reduced amount, of course -- particularly a trade were to materialize involving, say, Jonas Jerebko."

Dang, I need some time to wrap my mind around that possibility.

I'm with you, I find that hard to believe under any circumstances!

[Sparma]

From "Ask David" at mlive: "Besides, of the Pistons' two players with big expiring contracts, Villanueva is the one they might be interested in re-signing -- for a significantly reduced amount, of course -- particularly a trade were to materialize involving, say, Jonas Jerebko."

Dang, I need some time to wrap my mind around that possibility.

[cool breeze]

Don, the one thing I know is that when things go bad, people revert to the thing that they know best!

If things are good and we're winning, I don't think Jennings or Smith will be a problem.

If things go bad, look out! They'll revert to doing what they've always done, and it will either work or fail, but it won't be good for the team.

The problem is that you have to have a solid character to go through bad times and emerge doing the right thing. What's that Wooden saying?

Pressure doesn't build character, it reveals it(or something like that, apologies to Wooden)

Very good Oracle. I haven't read that one for awhile but used it several times with my players during my coaching days. You have to wonder if Rodney Stuckey has ever known about that one. We Piston fans have witnessed too much tanking by players and read too much about players blaming their coach for failing to show us good character on the court. The classic statement was when Charlie V told the press that the reason why the team was losing a lot had nothing to do with the players talent. That should have gotten Charlie a one way ticket out of town if Joe had any guts at all. That was a direct slap in the entire coaching staff's face. Meanwhile when watching PASS with opposing announcers, all I heard was that Charlie V had no business being in the NBA at all. That is why I brought up the Spurs last night. There is no way that the Spurs organization would have tolerated the boycott by Piston players at Toronto. Every last player would be long gone by now. How could any of the previous 4 coaching staffs be successful with players that Joe Dumars has tolerated? That is why I consider Joe to be the weakest NBA leader currently holding a job that his level. He has never been a leader in a crisis. And the Toronto thing was a crisis. Joe is always in the shadows avoiding responsibility and letting the coaching staffs take the blame. This is a players league not a coaches league. The GM is responsible for hiring players who have high character and dedication to the game. We have all taken our rage out on players like Iverson, Charlie V, Stuckey and others. But the focus should be on Joe Dumars. He is the man who likes soft defensive players and goes out of his way to sign them.

[Oracle]

I think so, unless KCP does something really spectacular, which I don't think is possible. BTW, I really agree with the underlined part of what he said!

Here's Mayo's take:

"I would expect Caldwell-Pope to become the starting shooting guard sometime during the season, probably earlier than later, but agree Stuckey could begin the season in that role.  Stuckey has the experience but Caldwell-Pope can stretch the floor better and fans will like the number of ways he will find to have impact on games.  It's just a question of when the rookie is ready.  Most teams go with regular rotations of about 10 players and I don't expect Cheeks to buck that much." - Ask David!: Who starts at shooting guard for Detroit Pistons and who is NBA's most improved team?

[Oracle]

Don, the one thing I know is that when things go bad, people revert to the thing that they know best!

If things are good and we're winning, I don't think Jennings or Smith will be a problem.

If things go bad, look out! They'll revert to doing what they've always done, and it will either work or fail, but it won't be good for the team.

The problem is that you have to have a solid character to go through bad times and emerge doing the right thing. What's that Wooden saying?

Pressure doesn't build character, it reveals it(or something like that, apologies to Wooden)

[Oracle]

This show was about Bernard King scoring something like 24 points in the 1984 first round match up between NY and Detroit. They only show the first quarter of that game but some of the players who ended up winning two championships were on that team. This was the Pistons first playoff appearance since the 1970s. Tripucka was not able to guard King and maybe that was the reason he was traded. Zeke, V. Johnson and Laimbeer played on that team and Laimbeer looked great scoring around 16 points himself in that first quarter. Laimbeer lead the league in rebounding that season. John Long, Terry Tyler played in that series. Even Kent Benson was still around and he actually played well in that game. What I identified was how well the Piston big men ran the floor. We all thought that Laimbeer was a slow guy but compared to the lazy way big men run the court today, Bill looks fast. Zeke made a lot of mistakes including many turnovers in that first quarter. My bet is that if Joe Dumars had been in charge back then, Thomas would have been traded after the 1984 season. Fans and the GM would be saying get rid of him, he will never be a point guard. Can you tell that I am still sick at heart that Brandon Knight has been traded for a AAU player?

I am not sure when this game will be on again but make sure you find it and record it. The game was played at the Silverdome.

Don, I saw that on NBATV, and that was a good game!!!

The first thing that struck me was the UGLY short shorts... yikes, I'm glad they changed that

Second was the awkward way the big men looked! Today's big men look like huge guards and SF's, back then, they had funny shapes and looked awkward, although they performed well.

But you're right about Zeke, he made a lot of mistakes and he scored way more than you wanted him to, but that team needed him to put them on his back.

That duel between him and King was sweet, but you could see that the more Zeke had to score, the more mistakes he was going to make and the young Pistons were going to lose.

BTW, I also caught the following series of King against Bird and the Celtics, which they lost!

[cool breeze]

Don, while you are mostly correct about AAU basketball and how it has degraded over the years, you're wrong about Jennings in this case.

When Jennings said that he wanted to go back to the way he played in AAU ball, he's saying he wants to get back to being a more PURE PG!

That's what got people excited about him, the way he dished the ball, ran plays, saw the floor... just like one of the best pure PG's.

He's saying that when he came to the Bucks, he HAD to do too much and it altered his game.

One thing I like about Jennings is that he's very honest about his issues, he doesn't try to minimize the problem, and that's the first step to correcting things.

I actually think his conversion will be smooth. Where the problems will come is watching him so that he doesn't slip back as soon as we need him to take over one game, it can't bleed into the next one!

I hope you are right Oracle. However, Jennings had it wrong last season. He thought he had to do everything like he did playing AAU ball. He was a one man show in AAU scoring a lot of points while not sharing the basketball. Last season his teammates were pissed at him because he did the same thing. Then he says that he is going back to playing like he did in AAU now that he is in Detroit. Pop had it right. AAU ball is all about being selfish. Get the ball and try to score against 5 so you can show the scouts how good you are. I think you are right about his intent when making that statement. In Jennings mind, he played unselfish in high school although that was not true. It was just that Jennings played even more selfish last season with the Bucks and nobody liked it especially the fans. Nobody plays unselfish in high caliber AAU ball. Pop. had that right and I agree with him that I would not want to coach any player who came into the pros from AAU background unless that player had also played some basketball in a high quality college basketball program first. That is Jennings weakness. He didn't do that so he didn't learn about his weaknesses. With that said, Jennings is a very clever basketball player. Will he have the drive to become a complete player? That is what I will be looking for. There is no doubt that this trade was another huge gamble by Joe Dumars. Unless KCP can play a lot of minutes, our Pistons are in trouble. Detroit has a group of guard defenders who are among with worst in the league if not the worst. Dumars traded his best defender among the guard in Knight and kept his two worst defenders in Bynum and Stuckey and now we have a 3rd horrible defender in Jennings. There is no way to talk around that issue. Stuckey and Bynum were so bad as defenders that the coaching staff had to play Singler at the 2 guard even though Singler is a small forward. Opposing players love playing against Stuckey and Bynum. They look forward to an easy night. Good job Joe!

[cool breeze]

This show was about Bernard King scoring something like 24 points in the 1984 first round match up between NY and Detroit. They only show the first quarter of that game but some of the players who ended up winning two championships were on that team. This was the Pistons first playoff appearance since the 1970s. Tripucka was not able to guard King and maybe that was the reason he was traded. Zeke, V. Johnson and Laimbeer played on that team and Laimbeer looked great scoring around 16 points himself in that first quarter. Laimbeer lead the league in rebounding that season. John Long, Terry Tyler played in that series. Even Kent Benson was still around and he actually played well in that game. What I identified was how well the Piston big men ran the floor. We all thought that Laimbeer was a slow guy but compared to the lazy way big men run the court today, Bill looks fast. Zeke made a lot of mistakes including many turnovers in that first quarter. My bet is that if Joe Dumars had been in charge back then, Thomas would have been traded after the 1984 season. Fans and the GM would be saying get rid of him, he will never be a point guard. Can you tell that I am still sick at heart that Brandon Knight has been traded for a AAU player?

I am not sure when this game will be on again but make sure you find it and record it. The game was played at the Silverdome.

[Sparma]

You make a lot a good points about people overestimating physical attributes, Don.

Interesting take on Monroe, Wise. I see him as making a ton of tough baskets without optimal ball placement from his PG, but it's possible he'll fade against the best competition he'd face in the playoffs.

[deusXango]

Brandon Jennings start his leadership role on the Pistons by reaching out to KCP and begin building a friendship/basketball relationship; our starting backcourt for the next 2-3 years has got to bond at some point in time, and if Jennings is sincere about becoming that elite facilitator he's hinted at, he's going to need to gel with a player that has the skillset of KCP and vise versa.

Although Drummond is our starting center, he decides to go to Cheeks and request to play the majority of his minutes on the 2nd unit; his developing leadership will grow that much faster from playing with players like Chauncey and Singler, and what we saw coming together in Summer league, with he and Mitchell, should be waaay past interesting. Think about the dual frontlines of Monroe, Smith, and Datome, followed by, Drummond, Mitchell, and Singler; IMHO that's a formidable frontline rotation, but I expect it to be picked apart and shot down.

I'd love for Stuckey and J.J. to get a fresh start someplace where their careers can be revitalized, before they become doomed like Charlie V.; one or both of them could bring us a bona fide SG. I don't hate either of those players, I just don't see them being good fits on this team; they seem to be nothing more than sentimental hopefuls.

Mo Cheeks surprises us all and coaches his ass off!! He turns out to be the players coach we've been looking for, one that the players respect and rally around his defensive philosophy, and play hard for every night; Rasheed Wallace has a far greater impact on developing the big men than expected.

Joe spends less time in Cheeks ear and more in Gores; let the team "do what it do." The Pistons finish 4th or 5th in the east!

[Oracle]

Don, while you are mostly correct about AAU basketball and how it has degraded over the years, you're wrong about Jennings in this case.

When Jennings said that he wanted to go back to the way he played in AAU ball, he's saying he wants to get back to being a more PURE PG!

That's what got people excited about him, the way he dished the ball, ran plays, saw the floor... just like one of the best pure PG's.

He's saying that when he came to the Bucks, he HAD to do too much and it altered his game.

One thing I like about Jennings is that he's very honest about his issues, he doesn't try to minimize the problem, and that's the first step to correcting things.

I actually think his conversion will be smooth. Where the problems will come is watching him so that he doesn't slip back as soon as we need him to take over one game, it can't bleed into the next one!

[cool breeze]

Go the "Real GM" web site to read the full article about AAU basketball and Gregg Popovich's take on it. He flat out says that there is no way one of those AAU players would be allowed to play on his team. He says it is about the culture of AAU ball where all you see is one player trying to go against 5 instead of playing team ball which involves passing and cutting etc. and defense is not part of the AAU style. It is brainless basketball. That is why the Spurs keep looking at the Euro players because now elite American high school players are going the AAU route. Some are saved by attending top college basketball programs. I have seen this personally where highly rated players that come in as freshman thinking they are one and done but can't make the starting lineup because they have no team orientated skills especially on the defensive end. No use moving without the ball in AAU because you will never get the pass when you are open. So what did our fearless leader Joe Dumars do? Yes, he traded Brandon Knight for Jennings a top rated AAU player who went to Europe for a year learning nothing. He goes to the Bucks and excites fans and coaches for a short time but soon opposing players figure him out especially players like Brandon Knight. Jennings teammates hate playing with him and are happy he was traded because he is still a one on five AAU type player who has never learned how to play real basketball. Maybe Cheeks can give him a crash course. But Jennings said after being traded that he is going to change now and go back to the way he played in AAU. Holly hell won't that be grand? I swear Joe Dumars is asleep at the wheel and his old friend John Hammond really put it to us Piston fans. There is no way Joe could get a job in the Spurs organization. Please bring back Isiah Thomas to lead this organization NOW!!!

[Oracle]

Ok, I'm ready to join you on a boycott on this silly trend to keep comparing players!

This is getting ridiculous - Why Derrick Rose Is Better Than Russell Westbrook

[cool breeze]

Good work Oracle.

[Oracle]

[cool breeze]

Everybody relax.  It's not a big deal.  Dumars found out that six dozen donuts were missing from his unlocked file cabinet.  He immediately pointed the finger at the usual suspect Charlie V. As it turns out the V man had an iron clad alibi.  He was in Vienna, Austria for the World Championship Sausage Eating Contest.  He had the lead but was unfortunately disqualified after doing his best spewing volcano imitation. He had a second eruption when Dumars said the word "donuts" to him over the  phone. Then Dumars texted Gores telling him that his file cabinet had been ripped off.  Gores called L. Brooks Patterson who had everyone in the Piston organization questioned by local Oakland County police departments. Cheeks was interrogated interrupting his viewing of some 3D zombie flick at a Birmingham theater. So as of now nobody has been charged with the crime. As Willie Shakespeare put it, it was much ado about nothing, but donuts in this case. FYI they all had sprinkles or so Joe D claims, the donuts not the zombies.

Welcome back Fennis. After reading your post, I had a vision of something that might happen at the Palace if this team lays an egg again this season. As basketball fans are tired of the entertainers selected by the owners relating to those corny halftime shows, I thought of this idea. Line up Charlie V, L Brooks Patterson, and Bill Bonds at the baseline and blow the whistle with the winner of one suicide getting one box of Joe's donuts and a slice of pizza with one topping. If Charlie wins, he will be allowed to re create the fist fights he has experienced throughout his basketball career using L. Brooks as his patsy before eating the food. L's thought would be that the more exposure the better for the next election.

[cool breeze]

I finally watched a taped video of the 2009 NBA Hall of Fame induction ceremony. John Stockton, who hates public speaking, gave one of the best speeches that I have ever witnessed. He talked about his childhood, his coaches, his teammates at different levels and his family. Isiah Thomas was on the stage with John as he had nominated Stockton. Then came Jerry Sloan who like Stockton doesn't like to speak about himself in public. That is what made this so special because both of those guys spoke from their hearts. Sloan's wife was alive at that time and attended this affair. What I came away with from those two men was how much they cared about doing things the right way. They never took a play off like so many of our Piston players in the last 4 seasons have done. Of all the coaches in the history of the game, my first choice as a player would be to have the luck to play for Jerry Sloan. The entire management group, the coaches and the players in that era for Utah were dedicated to doing things the right way and winning. Management including the owner and his wife who took over were very smart and paid attention to detail unlike what we have seen with the Pistons in recent times.

I see this current Piston team, the owners and management at all levels as being a step below the norm. We have too many fringe players who play soft defense. This has gone on for 4 seasons and Joe Dumars and his crew keep making the same mistakes. Dumars has not brought in one really good guard defender. We all waited for Joe to bring in a quality combo guard when the Pistons had a chance to win at least 3 more championships. He never even tried. It is no wonder that the Palace might be as empty this season as it was the last 4 seasons. Joe traded the only young guard who really cared about defending anyone much like the Affalo give away. How does he keep his job?????

[WTF]

But Wise, ahead of Drummond and Monroe??!  
 
If the standard is "talent" than Drummond's well ahead of Stuckey.  If it's the current level of productivity, I'd still take AD way before Stuckey.  Already last year, he was a tremendous difference maker (in spite of his flaws).
 
If the argument is that Stuckey's more talented than Monroe, well, maybe.  But if the standard is current productivity, Monroe's way, way, ahead of Stuckey - Sparma

Sparma I agree talent wise Drummond is ahead of Stuckey but even still he's not there with Stuckey not just yet. I'm not look at it as either or, but collectively. Drummond would be 3rd on list simply on talent and his impact in games but I need to see him in that starting line up clocking better than 25 minutes a game before I'm able to say it.

If there was ever a player with meaningless numbers its Monroe? Yes you can look at his numbers and you could say not bad Big Fella. But he's had the least impact of all the starters, he's none clutch and fades in the big moments in other words he chokes for more than he delivers.

We all have seen what Stuckey is capable of and it's not a question of if he can or can't it's more so will he. He has the talent, he can impact the game on both ends and significantly improve on his career averages.

[cool breeze]

Wise, you're going out on a limb with Stuckey!

You say you'd only place two above Stuckey "talent wise."  Singler may well be less talented than Stuckey but he was a better player last year, made more of a contribution to the team.  I expect him to do so again this year.

Similarly, Stuckey may have more talent than Bynum, but Bynum played better last year.

The appeal to "talent" can become vague quickly.  Can that include size and strength relative to the average at a position?  That seems to be part of what folks have in mind when thinking about Stuckey's potential.  If the norm becomes that loose, Stuckey fares real well, better than Singler and Bynum.  But what I was addressing was where to rank Stuckey on the best player list.  For me, all in all, that's going to be at #7, but I'm receptive to an argument in the 5-7 range.

But Wise, ahead of Drummond and Monroe??!  

If the standard is "talent" than Drummond's well ahead of Stuckey.  If it's the current level of productivity, I'd still take AD way before Stuckey.  Already last year, he was a tremendous difference maker (in spite of his flaws).

If the argument is that Stuckey's more talented than Monroe, well, maybe.  But if the standard is current productivity, Monroe's way, way, ahead of Stuckey.

The common mistake made by fans throughout the history of basketball is basing who you trust in physical gifts. This is why the draft combines mean almost nothing. It is like basing getting into medical school on SAT scores. One person with a high SAT score could be a mad man who has no drive to help people. What is inside the basketball player that one would be able to see through the players life? What kind of drive do they have? How do they live their lives? Are they satisfied with not reaching their potential. Everyone who is drafted or makes a NBA team is a freak of nature. They have a superior cardio system and have special physical or mental gifts that other college players do not have. It is really funny that Stuckey's name keeps popping up every summer in a positive light where fans and some coaches feel for sure Stuckey will come alive with basketball hunger. Sorry but looking back at Stuckey's history is a dead give away. He was a ball hog in college and only played hard on offense at a small school. He was drafted and was lucky to be able to play with a good team that helped him blend in occasionally. Once Joe Dumars made that foolish mistake of turning over the team to Stuckey, his true self came out. Why do I like Brandon Knight and believe he will become a quality NBA player? Because throughout his career Knight has shown improvement in some area every season from high school to the NBA. Stuckey has not improved in any area since his first season. Why didn't Stuckey decide to become a superior defender? He has the physical gifts. Not interested Piston fans. Why has Stuckey not been able to create his own shot and shoot from range at a higher percentage? Not interested in practice in the off season Piston fans. Why didn't Stuckey try to mesh with any of the previous coaching staffs so he could be on the court more? Stuckey didn't care as much as the other players who played ahead of him Piston fans. So why in hell do some of you keep on with this love for Stuckey when he doesn't love the Detroit Pistons? I really don't care if Stuckey plays better this season. I want him gone because he like Charlie V, didn't give their all for the fans or the team or the coaching staffs. Those two guys only care about themselves so why do you like them? And the bigger question is why has Joe Dumars been so in love with Rodney Stuckey for so long????

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