Sparma & Murph

[Oracle]

@Sparma - Excellent analysis and conclusion, I agree totally, even down to the thought of wondering how Knight would do with this team, but favoring Jennings due to inherent skillset!

Jennings, IMO, would have done better with last years team than Calderon because the team performed better under Knight, but Jennings is a combination of Knight's speed and Calderon's PG skills, which may have produced slightly better results.

My main problem with comparing Knight with Jennings is that it's a bit unfair to compare a 5 year player with a player with less than 2 years experience. The comparison will be better served in about 2 years, but that was our dilemma! We can't wait 2-3 years and hope that Knight gets it when we know Jennings already does, but just needs a mental adjustment to bring out greatness!

Knight may well be glad this trade happened so soon because he now has a team that will support him fully, and if he produces, they'll build more pieces around him!

BTW, really good article - Trading Brandon Knight 'wasn't easy' but Joe Dumars had to do it to upgrade Detroit Pistons

@Murph - You got it EXACTLY right! Chauncey is the best to start at PG for this team AND he's the best to start at SG right out of the gate!

Unfortunately, there are political problems with him starting at PG, and if we don't want to derail the Jennings experiment before it starts, you don't start CB at PG, you start Jennings and let them basically share the PG duties like they did on the Clippers!

BTW, I have to give you props on Walker! I wasn't high on either Knight or Walker, but when Joe picked Knight I was glad he did mostly because of size! Who knew that Walker would blossom into such a good PG? Well, I guess Murph knew

[Murph]

Let's fact it, IF (and it's a big if) Billups can remain healthy, he's probably the best option to start at PG, as the team is presently constructed. There is no doubt in my mind that Billups is the best distributor on the team, and we have a lot of offensive options that need a pass first PG.

The trouble is, Billups is probably the best option to start at SG also. He's the most experienced and best shooter on the team also.

So the questions is, would you rather have a starting back-court of Billups and Stuckey, or a starting back-court of Jennings and Billups? I think it's clear that we'll see Jennings and Billups start.



Anyway...back to fantasy land. If I could turn back the clock and rectify some of Joe's back-court blunders over the years, I'd want the following guards on the Pistions: Walker, Burke, Siva, Billups, Stuckey and Afflalo.

If Joe had any common sense, we could easily have all the above guards under contract.

[Sparma]

Dumars' comments about the trade no doubt contain an element of salesmanship.  Still, I think his comments reflect his genuine perception pretty well in this case; in turn those perceptions, taken as comparative with Knight, capture my own critical views concerning Knight pretty well (bearing in mind I had little trouble agreeing with all but one of Calipari's positive comments about BK).

I'm hoping for an improved Jennings this year, in line with his own comments.  That said, from what I know from looking into PG's career stats, I think that a PG's established performance is the best single predictor of performance the following year.  Beyond the second year, I don't see a lot of wild vacillation in PG numbers, even when circumstances shift dramatically (admittedly, a lot of statistical analysis would be needed to bear that impression out).  Based on that, I'd take Jenning's actual numbers as the best single predictor of what the numbers he would have put up in Detroit.  Calderon's a useful case study: his assist to TO ratio in Detroit was a bit less stellar, but pretty similar, than in Toronto and Detroit even though the teams were quite different and even though he seemed to alter his game substantially, looking for his own shot a lot.

Much more fine-grained analysis is needed of all the contributing factors to a PG's stat but I think established performance (after a full year or two) is the best starting point, combined with age-related career trajectory as players move towards their peak and beyond.  Opportunity's a factor too: who knows how good a young Steve Nash would have been in his first stint with Phoenix, for instance.

While the impact of LeBron and a small number of others on team performance, I think there's a lot of research to be done about the impact of a single player on the team performance.  It's been pointed out in SI that the Knicks have fared surprisingly well with Carmelo out, for instance.  Baseball's different, but it's notable that Bill James stresses the limited impact (in general) of one player coming or going.

So, if the question were if I'd expect last team's performance to have been dramatically different, I'd be cautious about being overly optimistic.  Calderon put up a far superior assist to TO ratio than BK, but the team didn't rocket upwards, as you (Oracle) have pointed out.

There are a lot of moving parts on this team. It would have been interesting to see how the team would have fared this year with Knight playing a lot. I'm happy it will be Jennings instead though.

[deusXango]

Sissy, I forget how much you love those Tigers, and I hope they keep raising hell, all the way to another pennant! See ya' later pal.

Oracle, this is what kills my happy spirit, when it comes to rooting for the Pistons; Joe's bullsh!t. First he overlooked natural PG's in the draft in favor of KCP, who now is being billed behind every guard on the roster, other than Siva....he gets roped into a trade offer conversation 4 DAYS before it's consummated for an $8 million 6th man in exchange for a developing, starting PG and SG/SF?! WTF is that all about? As a dyed in the wool fan, why am I exposed to such asinine Pistons reporting? I go back to an earlier hope that I expressed for a PG, Greivis Vasquez. He's a natural, who's improving by leaps and bounds; he has excellent size (6' 5") and pedigree, what would have been wrong with trading for him? Did I mention cheaper than Jennings and also sees the floor quite well, passes for a high assist total, shoots for a high percentage, and doesn't turn the ball over! All the PG opportunities are gone and we have Jennings now, so why not give him all the support we can, starting with making him feel as welcome as possible?

Fact: Jennings and KCP should be our starting backcourt from opening night (until it becomes obvious that it's not a workable combination), and begin to gel with our Big 3 frontline A.S.A.P. Barring the fact that they both suck all through training camp, and there is no chemistry in the starting lineup, sentimental names from the past like Chauncey or Stuckey shouldn't be discussed as possible starters.

I find it hard to believe that Joe promised Chauncey a starting spot at PG so he would sign for peanuts, especially since this is his "swan song" contract. I can, however, see Joe in Cheeks ear with the rationale for a conspiracy to place Stuckey in the spotlight of a starting guard spot by finding fault with Jennings (6th man candidate) and KCP (inexperienced rookie). Oracle has said it numerous times, and I agree, that the success of this team is going to depend on the coaching; I'll go a step further by saying that the integrity of the coach will be as important as his knowledge of the X's and O's. Why would he be trying to teach and mentor a player who's on the last year of a contract, as a priority, when he has a fresh, young player, on a newly signed contract, that can be his "poster child?"

We missed out on Chauncey's last best years, and that was Joe's fault; there is so much blind faith in Stuckey, because of Joe's past misuse of his potential, but this is a new day and those players time has passed, which is on Joe! If they are allowed to grab prominent roles on this team at this time, it won't be in the best interest of the team, it'll be in the interest of white washing Joe's dirty past. If we had one choice possible, would we choose a successful season and growing team, or for Joe to keep his job?

[Oracle]

No worries, we'll be here waiting when you get the time Bro!

[Oracle]

Terrific interview of Joe Dumars by Zach Lowe at Grantland.   I think that a comprehensive sketch of Dumars' perception of Knight’s deficiencies (compared to Jennings) can be inferred from his explanation of what he likes about Jennings and why he made the trade.
Noting that Jennings averaged 6.5 assists [2.5 assists per game more than BK], Dumars says: “We needed that ability to both score and distribute from the point guard spot.”  
Joe praises Jennings for running the pick-and-roll well. This leads to his next comment: opponents need to guard against Jennings’ shot as well as against what he can do as distributor.
Responding to a question specifically contrasting Jennings and Knight, Joe says: “We like his ability to score off the bounce.”
He responds further to this question of contrast by noting how well Jennings sees the floor.
Later, he adds that Jennings raises the talent level.

Jennings is interesting and at the same time confusing!

I loved his numbers and his skills, but you can't also ignore the facts!

1. The Bucks were by far a better team when Jennings wasn't on the court!
2. Under the bright lights of the playoffs, Jennings game shrunk to levels so low it's ridiculous!

Remember that these are more or less marketing events to sell us on the team and players, while justifying the moves made over the summer. And lately, Joe is now shifting the success or failure squarely on the shoulders of the players by saying it'll only work if they embrace "Team First".

While that's true, the wiggle room for Joe didn't slip by me for one minute! BTW, isn't it his job to not only get talented players, but make sure that part of that talent is knowing how to play right? If you get guys that don't know that principle, you shouldn't get a pass if you can't demand it from them!

Jennings is potentially better than Knight in almost all of the things you want in a PG! I have a lot of hope that he can change, because all of the support systems are here to make it happen, and I'm excited about him bringing his capabilities to the Pistons.

I just want to make sure that we don't start thinking that we can assume that he's going to do something he's NEVER done before and take it as a fact!

It's going to take some time, and I'll be patient because I know it will be a process that may take half a year to see the full results.

The good news is that we will win a lot of games we used to lose on talent alone, and that's the pattern for successful teams in the NBA, where you tough out wins against the better teams!

One Final Question: Since you're doing a comparison, how do you think Jennings would have done with the team BK7 had last year? To be honest, now that we have this team, I can FULLY see how God awful last years starting team was... holy sh!t!!! I can see how Calderon would run as fast as he could to get away from that stuff!

[Oracle]

The talking heads are at it again!

Now they want to stir up trouble with Jennings and cast doubt on his role as starting PG!

No less than 2 articles show up today on Jennings becoming what lots of folks here wanted for BK7... 6th man!

Where does this come from? Well, it appears that it came from Joe Dumars himself!

From Rant Sports - "When the Detroit Pistons signed Chauncy Billups, he was told he would be the starting point guard. With the trade for Brandon Jennings, what will Mo Cheeks do now?"

I hope Joe wasn't that stupid, and it also would explain why Knight got pissed off!

Joe continues to want to make roster assignments like a dictator rather than let them be earned by the players!

This is some sick and destructive stuff!

[Sissy1946]

I've had Frankie D, Sissy, and Grizz sightings on that other network, anyone know why they don't have input here anymore?

I've been reading you guys & am getting Ready to get back on here soon as I've got plenty of Stuff to say about the newly revised Pistons, am pumped up about this team & looking forward for training Camp & exhibition games & the start of the season.
Anxious to see who the starters are going to be at our guard spots or if another trade is coming down the pipe, can't wait to see now Luigi Datome does, he looks like an all around player & could really help this team.
Also looking forward to see Smith, Monroe & Drummond all out on the floor together with Jennings, Chauncey & KCP, Lob City indeed, thanks for the concern Deus, am just trying to get these tigers in the playoffs right now & enjoying the summer but like Arnold says "I'll Be Back" soon, you guys keep those interesting posts coming, I've got My eyes on all of them. Later!

[Sparma]

Terrific interview of Joe Dumars by Zach Lowe at Grantland. I think that a comprehensive sketch of Dumars' perception of Knight’s deficiencies (compared to Jennings) can be inferred from his explanation of what he likes about Jennings and why he made the trade.
Noting that Jennings averaged 6.5 assists [2.5 assists per game more than BK], Dumars says: “We needed that ability to both score and distribute from the point guard spot.”
Joe praises Jennings for running the pick-and-roll well. This leads to his next comment: opponents need to guard against Jennings’ shot as well as against what he can do as distributor.
Responding to a question specifically contrasting Jennings and Knight, Joe says: “We like his ability to score off the bounce.”
He responds further to this question of contrast by noting how well Jennings sees the floor.
Later, he adds that Jennings raises the talent level.

[Go Stones!]

Am I the only one who is interested in seeing how these changes will pan out against the Heat? Seems like we really gave them a hard time last year. I'm sure with Monroe, Smith, Dre we will dominate Bosh, et al.

[cool breeze]

I'm going to sum up what each team got out of this trade:

Bucks:
*Young, cheap PG who can shoot who will start now, but may become 6th man when he plateaus.
*Rid of the headache PG who wanted 12M/year AND WERE AT A STANDSTILL IN NEGOTIATIONS!
*Potential SG/SF (Middleton) to crack the line-up
*Some cap relief as 8M>Knight/Middleton/Slava

Pistons:
*All-star caliber, cheap (considering) who can see the court with shooting ability and high assists considering
*upgraded our PG


If you would like to correct or add to this, please be my guest...

While I mostly agree with you, there are two items I think are overlooked.

1. While Knight isn't the "Natural" that Jennings is, it just means that he needs to learn the position. The excellent analysis at GrantLand on Knight clearly concluded that what he needs is learnable.

As a matter of fact, Knight was due to learn what Jennings just mastered last year(see the Joe interview), the CP3 hesitation moves in the paint. Seeing the floor comes with experience, it's part of adjusting to NBA speed. Of course, everyone has opted for the easy analysis on Knight, just like the talking heads are talking the easy analysis of the Pistons chances to make the playoffs. It's safe and easy, it's just not always right, but it allows a lot of wiggle room.

2. Assuming that Jennings was a headache because he wanted a MAX deal is very wrong! We're not getting an all star guard, we're getting a known non-all star guard with a lot of problems that we hope he has motivation to correct! Jennings isn't good enough for a 12M deal, and he's barely good enough for the 8M deal he got, but in our position, he is worth the risk due to Smith's age!

Jennings is fast and athletic, but he's not BK7 fast and athletic! I can see the styles are different, but excellence doesn't respect style, it simply produces. If you can believe Joe's thinking of getting smart players on the court and they'll figure it out, then that logic applies everywhere.

The test of Jennings is the day the press starts drooling over Smith/Monroe/Drummond and he doesn't get the props he thinks he deserves! When the bigs are getting a lot of assists and racking up the numbers, and he only gets the distributor credit... then we'll know if anything has changed(I'm hoping)

BTW, IMO, Jennings wasn't cheap! He's absolutely better than Knight at this point, but he isn't 8M better than Knight.

In fact, the Bucks backcourt is arguably better than our backcourt! I like Knight/OJ Mayo better than Jennings/Billups or Jennings/KCP or Jennings/Stuckey, even though I think Jennings/Stuckey could be interesting, just not from a shooting perspective!

Oracle this was an outstanding response showing much depth of understanding of the details. Great job!

[cool breeze]

Every team in the Eastern Conference (with the exception of a few "tankers") made marked improvement on their rosters and I would imagine that's why many fans don't have as high hopes for our season as the changes Dumars made demands. Let me say first off, I'm not a big fan of Joe Dumars as a GM, I just have mad respect for him as a man; I respect a lot of men that can't run much more than their mouths. The acquisition of Smith, Jennings, KCP, and Datome are vastly underrated moves IMHO (I'd rather have traded for Vasquez and kept Middleton, but that's water over the dam), and the sheer luck of drafting Mitchell and Siva in the 2nd round is unbelievable! We no longer have $10 million Maggette, who couldn't get off the bench, or $5 million Maxiell, who shouldn't have left the bench, and Calderon who was too old to be getting the $8 million we signed Jennings for; all in all, great moves.

Rudy Gay ain't all that, for the money he's being paid, so when Toronto turned down the trade proposal for Stuckey and Villanueva's expiring contracts, that should have told everybody, with a brain, something about their value on the open market! Toronto. Toronto!! I personally can't wrap my head around the fact about how Stuckey has no established trade value for ANY team, but he's suddenly the shoe-in for starting SG this year, on a team that's far superior to the one we finished last year with, and he wasn't an adequate starting guard then. Damn! We're coming off a 29 win season and just drafted one helluva SG in the lottery, why aren't fans behind this rookie starting? Why are we looking for a 3rd string big man when we still CV (who needs to earn his money in some capacity); can't he play 3rd string center?

My mind is open to Cheeks ability to access talent, fit the pieces together, hire the best minds available for assistants, keep his word (no double-talk bullsh!t like the last coach we had), and direct this team to levels that we'll all be satisfied with. We ignore the f#(ked up history of Stuckey and are more than willing to give him another chance, why not Cheeks, Smith, Monroe, and Jennings, instead of constantly reliving their past shortcomings? If Cheeks runs a highly competitive, yet fair, training camp, this is how I expect things to turn out;
C- Drummond/Monroe/Villanueva
PF-Monroe/Smith/Mitchell
SF-Smith/Datome/Jerebko
SG-Caldwell-Pope/Singler/Bynum
PG-Jennings/Billups/Stuckey
Settle down, settle down, this is nothing more than pure conjecture.     

dX I agree 100% of what you said except for the predictions on the pecking order relating to how the players will line up after training camp. Maybe Siva should be the 3rd point guard and Stuckey possibly the 3rd shooting guard over Bynum. But I like the idea that you didn't classify Bynum as a point guard. Anything can happen with those players before the regular season starts but there will sure be some real fighting for spots in the rotation this year. I wish that I could watch those practices in this pre season. Datome is an unknown for me. He might not be able to hold his own on the defensive end early on. Datome might be a guy who will look much better around March. Will management do the wrong thing and put Stuckey at the head of the pack just to increase his potential trade value for a Rondo trade? This kind of stuff happens and that is why it is very difficult to predict anything that might happen when it comes to business in the NBA.

[cool breeze]

I just read an article about Rondo and the Celtics. They classified Rondo's ACL injury as a "tear of the ACL". This is good news for fans who would like to see Rondo in a Piston uniform. If the ACL is not severed completely which is often the case, then the prognosis is much better. I believe that Rondo will completely recover unless there is more structural damage to the same knee that they are not talking about. Rondo is a good friend of Smith. I wonder if Jennings is feeling any pressure about those rumors that Detroit is still in the hunt for Rondo. He has his new contract but now the outlook for Detroit is much better and my bet is that Rondo wants to be part of this new Piston kick ass team. I expect that Jennings will be playing like he did his rookie season - ALL OUT.

[deusXango]

Every team in the Eastern Conference (with the exception of a few "tankers") made marked improvement on their rosters and I would imagine that's why many fans don't have as high hopes for our season as the changes Dumars made demands. Let me say first off, I'm not a big fan of Joe Dumars as a GM, I just have mad respect for him as a man; I respect a lot of men that can't run much more than their mouths. The acquisition of Smith, Jennings, KCP, and Datome are vastly underrated moves IMHO (I'd rather have traded for Vasquez and kept Middleton, but that's water over the dam), and the sheer luck of drafting Mitchell and Siva in the 2nd round is unbelievable! We no longer have $10 million Maggette, who couldn't get off the bench, or $5 million Maxiell, who shouldn't have left the bench, and Calderon who was too old to be getting the $8 million we signed Jennings for; all in all, great moves.

Rudy Gay ain't all that, for the money he's being paid, so when Toronto turned down the trade proposal for Stuckey and Villanueva's expiring contracts, that should have told everybody, with a brain, something about their value on the open market! Toronto. Toronto!! I personally can't wrap my head around the fact about how Stuckey has no established trade value for ANY team, but he's suddenly the shoe-in for starting SG this year, on a team that's far superior to the one we finished last year with, and he wasn't an adequate starting guard then. Damn! We're coming off a 29 win season and just drafted one helluva SG in the lottery, why aren't fans behind this rookie starting? Why are we looking for a 3rd string big man when we still have CV (who needs to earn his money in some capacity); can't he play 3rd string center?

My mind is open to Cheeks ability to assess talent, fit the pieces together, hire the best minds available for assistants, keep his word (no double-talk bullsh!t like the last coach we had), and direct this team to levels that we'll all be satisfied with. We ignore the f#(ked up history of Stuckey and are more than willing to give him another chance, why not Cheeks, Smith, Monroe, and Jennings, instead of constantly reliving their past shortcomings? If Cheeks runs a highly competitive, yet fair, training camp, this is how I expect things to turn out;
C- Drummond/Monroe/Villanueva
PF-Monroe/Smith/Mitchell
SF-Smith/Datome/Jerebko
SG-Caldwell-Pope/Singler/Bynum
PG-Jennings/Billups/Stuckey
Settle down, settle down, this is nothing more than pure conjecture.

[WTF]

Not at all Murph, IMO this could be like one of those "NFL From Worst To First Moments" Some of you will be amazed this season with the impact both Sheed and CB from a learning stand-point. I can see both Monroe and Drummond making tremendous jumps from last season and I think CB will make every guard on our team better especially Jennings. Also lets not under estimate Cheeks as the head coach, Cheeks is far better than his record would indicate.

Truthfully it's all the intangibles about this season, and these players that make me more optimistic than previous seasons. Here's why.

1. There are at least 2 newly acquired players on this team that has All-Star talent, Jennings and Smith who both will likely be playing with chips on their shoulders. This alone IMO makes us 20 games better than last season.

2. There are at 2 old players on this team that have a lot to prove in a contract year, Stuckey and Charlie. To players that have been totally missed used the past 4 seasons.

3. Billups and Wallace passing the knowledge and Cheeks coaching, some of you are really under-estimating the impact he will have as a coach.


This 3 things are the differences from 29 wins last season to doubling that total this season. IMO this team wins better than 50 games.

[Murph]

I'm going to give Joe some credit here which I rarely do.  This team just with the addition of Smith, Jennings and CB instantly put the team in the playoffs IMO.  A 7th and 8th seeds I a forgone conclusion, it's a done deal unless this team suffers from major injuries.  The Pistons can go  high as a 4th seed.
 
1. Miami:  You simply have to conclude they're the best team right now being the "Defending Champs" But they're still only a three man team.
 
2. Chicago: Should be pushing for the #1 spot in the East with a healthy D. Rose back in the mix.  I'm starting to question Rose toughness right now ad where his heart is at.  Most "Elite Players" would have played last season
 
3. Indy: Is a tough team and experience is key with them.  They're learning how to win games and sooner or later they are going to push Miami and Chicago t of the picture.
 
4. NY, Brooklyn, Pistons:  As loaded as Brooklyn is I honestly don't think they'll have the right chemistry to pull it all together to beat out the top three.  Kidd is a wildcard an this hire only proves the owner is looking to fill seats and not all about winning.  New York simply can't d it with Anthony alone and don't see them being any better than the Pistons an don't think NY will finish with a better record.   This definitely put us at a 5th seed

If somehow Cheeks can keep Jennings reigned in, and focused on setting up his teammates, as opposed to chucking up outside shots at the rate of 39%,   then I think the Pistons have a legitimate shot at making the 6th, 7th or 8th seed in the EC.

But I think it's unrealistic to think the Pistons are going to be able to compete with the likes of Brooklyn or NY.  Both those teams have an over-whelming advantage in talent and experiencee, and both have potentially excellent coaches.  Woodson has already proved his chops.  He's improved his teams every year, where ever he's gone.  And Kidd is a natural for a head coaching position.  We've already seen what Kidd can do as Head Coach, when he ran the Nets as a PG from 03-07, when the Nets fired Byron Scott and hired the completely inexperienced and incompetent Lil Larry Frank.  With Kidd as a "player-coach," the Nets advanced to the 2nd round of the playoffs almost every year...no thanks to Lil Larry.

But at this point, I'd be thilled if the Pistons sqeezed into the playoffs as the 6th, 7th or 8th seed.  You gotta start somewhere.

And it will be interesting to see how the Pistons compete head-to-head against the Bucks, who have a similarly young and athletic starting line-up, and who will go with Knight or Ridnour, Mayo, Ilyasova, Henson and Sanders.

[Oracle]

I'm going to sum up what each team got out of this trade:

Bucks:
*Young, cheap PG who can shoot who will start now, but may become 6th man when he plateaus.
*Rid of the headache PG who wanted 12M/year AND WERE AT A STANDSTILL IN NEGOTIATIONS!
*Potential SG/SF (Middleton) to crack the line-up
*Some cap relief as 8M>Knight/Middleton/Slava

Pistons:
*All-star caliber, cheap (considering) who can see the court with shooting ability and high assists considering
*upgraded our PG


If you would like to correct or add to this, please be my guest...

While I mostly agree with you, there are two items I think are overlooked.

1. While Knight isn't the "Natural" that Jennings is, it just means that he needs to learn the position. The excellent analysis at GrantLand on Knight clearly concluded that what he needs is learnable.

As a matter of fact, Knight was due to learn what Jennings just mastered last year(see the Joe interview), the CP3 hesitation moves in the paint. Seeing the floor comes with experience, it's part of adjusting to NBA speed. Of course, everyone has opted for the easy analysis on Knight, just like the talking heads are talking the easy analysis of the Pistons chances to make the playoffs. It's safe and easy, it's just not always right, but it allows a lot of wiggle room.

2. Assuming that Jennings was a headache because he wanted a MAX deal is very wrong! We're not getting an all star guard, we're getting a known non-all star guard with a lot of problems that we hope he has motivation to correct! Jennings isn't good enough for a 12M deal, and he's barely good enough for the 8M deal he got, but in our position, he is worth the risk due to Smith's age!

Jennings is fast and athletic, but he's not BK7 fast and athletic! I can see the styles are different, but excellence doesn't respect style, it simply produces. If you can believe Joe's thinking of getting smart players on the court and they'll figure it out, then that logic applies everywhere.

The test of Jennings is the day the press starts drooling over Smith/Monroe/Drummond and he doesn't get the props he thinks he deserves! When the bigs are getting a lot of assists and racking up the numbers, and he only gets the distributor credit... then we'll know if anything has changed(I'm hoping)

BTW, IMO, Jennings wasn't cheap! He's absolutely better than Knight at this point, but he isn't 8M better than Knight.

In fact, the Bucks backcourt is arguably better than our backcourt! I like Knight/OJ Mayo better than Jennings/Billups or Jennings/KCP or Jennings/Stuckey, even though I think Jennings/Stuckey could be interesting, just not from a shooting perspective!

[Go Stones!]

ESPN... "Team President Joe Dumars doesn't anticipate any more major changes, so all that's left now is the waiting."

"I do feel like the roster that we have right now is a roster that can compete for the playoffs," Dumars said. "I don't foresee us doing any more big moves."

This is may be how he feels now...remember that Hammonds was the one who started the discussion with Dumars. If this happens again, be aware that he would jump at any way to improve this squad.

Also, you can see from the history of this Jennings-Knight trade that SOMEONE from Bucks organization leaked the potential trade before Dumars was questioned. Is that how it works? Hit the team with rumors, so they will think it over a little, then contact them? It makes sense on a sales pitch angle...whoever initiates the negotiation pretty much always loses. This is a way that it makes it somewhat neutral at the beginning.

[Go Stones!]

I'm going to sum up what each team got out of this trade:

Bucks:
*Young, cheap PG who can shoot who will start now, but may become 6th man when he plateaus.
*Rid of the headache PG who wanted 12M/year AND WERE AT A STANDSTILL IN NEGOTIATIONS!
*Potential SG/SF (Middleton) to crack the line-up
*Some cap relief as 8M>Knight/Middleton/Slava

Pistons:
*All-star caliber, cheap (considering) who can see the court with shooting ability and high assists considering
*upgraded our PG


If you would like to correct or add to this, please be my guest...

[merc]

ESPN... "Team President Joe Dumars doesn't anticipate any more major changes, so all that's left now is the waiting."

"I do feel like the roster that we have right now is a roster that can compete for the playoffs," Dumars said. "I don't foresee us doing any more big moves."

[Oracle]

@Fly - Exactly, and the Bucks didn't play games, the flat out said Knight is our starting PG... PERIOD! - Milwaukee Bucks name Brandon Knight starting point guard

While it's clear that Joe thinks he got a steal in that deal, the Bucks are FIRMLY convinced that they made out like bandits getting the hard working and talented Knight, who they see as their future!

@Stones - Yeah, you're a dues paying member ! Thanks for the link to the article, it was the best to date on how Joe sees the team! You were also right, we won't always agree, and it starts with Monroe! I don't want to trade him any time soon, even though Joe is concerned about his defense.

Let's see if it improves or if he gets a jump shot, but if he fails to get either, that may be a problem, but further down the road!

@Wise - I also think 5th/6th seed is possible! I actually think higher would be possible but IMO, we won't be nearly as good early on as we will near the end of the season, so our record will likely not reflect how good the team really is!

Again, my biggest concern is coaching, because coaching can either reinforce chemistry or destroy it!

[Go Stones!]

I'll try my best to bring some interesting theories and knowledge. Don't look for me to agree with all of what you say, nor will you agree with me 100%. I love reading your posts...

Did you see the Joe D interview with Grantland.com?
Grantland interview with Joe D

It tells me that Joe D was hit up for the trade and not vice versa. Joe D also knows who Jennings is and what he is capable of. He was a SG, but played closely with a PG...in the NBA...this is how he can spot some of these guys and their extraordinary talent. Knight did not have this...sorry to say. I liked him, but seemed to wither/choke under pressure...like Stackhouse.

I agree Knight has the potential to be good...I'll put this out a better way...the truth will come out as to how much Knight gets in his first contract with the Bucks (or any other team). Is it going to be more than 8M like Jennings? Then we can compare value...who is better for their contract? I think you will see Knight signed for 8.5-9 a year and less successful than Jennings when his contract is up.

On another subject...did you see the question of GS potentially trading Lee? I'd LOVE to get him even if it was for Monroe...

[FlyDog]

Ok, let the BS Games begin with this article: Brandon Jennings isn't guaranteed job as Detroit Pistons' starting point guard, says Joe Dumars

Really???

Why say something so obviously untrue?

Yeah, we know the theory, but name me the guard making more than Jennings on this team and how you would explain to anybody that you traded BK7 to sit the guy you traded for?

Seriously, if you're going to lie, PLEASE find better material!

This is what bothers me so much about Dumars.  He continues to underestimate and insult the intelligence of Pistons fans.  I can hardly tolerate it anymore. HE is the reason I don't spend much time in here anymore.

[Oracle]

Wade & Sons on Ebony Magazine

[Oracle]

Ok, let the BS Games begin with this article: Brandon Jennings isn't guaranteed job as Detroit Pistons' starting point guard, says Joe Dumars

Really???

Why say something so obviously untrue?

Yeah, we know the theory, but name me the guard making more than Jennings on this team and how you would explain to anybody that you traded BK7 to sit the guy you traded for?

Seriously, if you're going to lie, PLEASE find better material!

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