Draft & Coach

[Sparma]

I'm suspecting there won't be a lot of enthusiasm to trade up for our pick, Oracle. Looks like we're sitting at 7 or 8 in a weak draft, hoping one of the guys we've discussed will fall to us. At the same time, I'll guess that multiple players picked at 7 and beyond will prove to have stellar careers, as is ordinarily the case. Not sure how much luck and how much skill is involved in picking one of those guys. What if we reversed the script and tried to trade up? I suspect it wouldn't take that much to move up, even to #1. Probably not worth it, although I could see making a big push for McLemore.

My main thought concerning the coaching change is that I hope to goodness they pick a strong replacement, not sparing $$ this time (as they did for the last three coaches). For a huge offer, I could see Phil Jackson being interested in see how far he could take our troika of centers, combined with other assets. For a bit less, there are interesting choices available (Sloan, McMillan, S. Van Gundy, Avery Johnson). I like Murph's idea of a second round with Doug Collins. I also like Merc's idea of trying a fresh choice. But, please, make a good decision for once.

As to Frank himself, I've been puzzled for a while why he didn't do a better job. He seems like a knowledgeable, smart, hardworking guy. PP reminded us CV's wish at the time of the Frank hiring to have a former player as coach. CV can't have been the only one to have felt that way. Frank could have helped himself immensely with (a) better and more ruthless player rotations (most notoriously featuring Drummond over the average, at best, Maxiell) and (b) having a more sophisticated offensive plan, or just one to which he demanded adherence (when BK, Prince, Monroe, Stuckey, and Bynum were taking turns running isolation plays earlier in the season). I got the feeling that he knew there was a better way but that he feared taking that path for fear of alienating players (further). Not having much of a(n offensive) gameplan (until Calderon came and structured things for him) and being overly deferential to players got him his just deserts. I still foresee him having a long NBA career, as assistant.

[Oracle]

If and when it could make a great deal of sense:

If everyone responsible for architecting this roster is also fired, and it becomes a clean sweep, clean house. Firing the GM and the coach is a true fresh start.

At the end of the day, I don't think Frank was the problem, and I don’t have any objections to his firing. Joe Dumars shoulders much more of the blame. But I don’t think he did anything to prove he could be part of the solution moving forward either. He’s nothing more than an average NBA coach, at the very best, and depending on what you value in a coach, he’s worse. - SB-Nation

Always easy to scapegoat a coach right(what do you think they get paid for?)? Flip, Curry and now Frank, I'll leave Kuester out of this for a moment.

Flip: Not winning a title had nothing to do with his lack of coaching ability. Flip was a genius without the personnel required to win because Joe basically stood pat on improving the roster bench players. I don't care what people think on this but our starter could keep up at the pace they were playing at. - Flip was a REALLY good coach, no argument there! Joe blew it with the bench

Curry: I ragged on him royally for his coaching but in fairness to Curry he was handed a contender when he was hired in only to have it all change in the blink of an eye with the Chauncey and Dice trade. There is no way we don't win better than 50 games and back in the ECF. Not only did the change steal at least 20 more wins out that season it destroyed the morale in that locker room and on the court. - The Curry move was probably the dumbest self inflicted wound Joe could make

Frank: I agree that at best he was about average, but only fans are screaming it's the coach when all the talking heads and a handful of fans basically believe it's an issue with talent. I'm definitely on the side of it being a talent issue here. - That's totally not true, EVERYBODY in the know, knows that Frank needed to go, they just believe as most of do that Frank wasn't the root of the problem

I'm not saying Frank didn't deserve firing but it definitely was mostly Joe's fault and should be fired as well. Talent has been an issue the past 7 seasons from the time Mike James, Memo and Corliss were gone after 2004. Okay I'll give Joe KUDOS on Dice , bold and risky but after that nothing, noda, zilch and this is what these 3 scapegoated coaches have in common. - This is totally off! Joe had 2 championship finals apperances, one win, and 6 ECF championships and a bunch of division championships! Name me another GM with those credentials... I'm waiting!

When you leave out all of the personal stuff and focus on the real issues, I agree a lot more with you!

Of course Joe is at the bottom of all of the pain, just like he was at the bottom of the good, that way outweighs the bad, nobody's perfect!

Joe got hurt by the early success and started believing his press clippings and thought his stuff don't stank!

When that happens you forget all of the blocking and tackling that allows the running back to get free, and think it's easy. That's how you hire Curry when everybody in the basketball world is just shaking their head!

Yeah Joe has messed up, and yeah I hate the way he threw players under the bus when he needed to be under there with them, but remember one thing!

This is Joe's house, it ain't Franks! At least for another season, because at this point, he's going to have to EARN the right to stay longer!

[Oracle]

I don't know if it's wise or not to trade the pick, or if there is enough interest for anybody to move up, but it's always an option if Joe decides to use it.

On Frank, I too believed he was one of the hardest working guys in the business! Frank is always prepared for the games and has his ducks in a row! That's what impresses anybody that interviews him or watches how he conducts himself with a team!

Franks problem is that it's hard to get everybody else to prepare as well as he does, and the rigidity of the way he operates results in a poor match for most teams except one that already had that level of preparation instilled into it already!

As you siad, when Calderon came here Franks system performed a little bit better, and we know it hummed when Kidd was running it!

The bottom line for me is that while Frank is a good coach, he's one dimensional, and that's not good for a head coach, but a perfect match for an assistant!

You mentioned Sloan, McMillan, S. Van Gundy, Avery Johnson & Collins as possible coaches. I've already endorsed Collins, but I would also endorse Nate and Sloan!

However my top two would be Collins & McMillian, with Sloan a close runner up!

BTW, I have to think that some of the possibles have been felt out and that they have an idea of who's on the short list!

I just hope they make their move sooner rather than later!

[lemonpen]

We've set the carousel to spinning yet again. Damn, Damn, Damn!!!!!
11 coaches in the last 20 seasons. An average tenure less than 2 yrs. Only two have realized a third year. I bet we have paid more $$$$ for non-coaching coaches than we have for those that have held the seat.
I would love to conclude that the issue is closed and what’s done is done, but it is so far from true. Our track record, no, our long track record is that of a grossly inept and impatient organization regarding team leadership. The more things change, the more they stay the same. There is little reason to believe that the next in line will be "THE ONE", or even THE ONE B4 THE ONE.

This may be our fork in the road. Mess it up once more and one by one you can surely kiss our highly valued kids goodbye. They will long for a taste of the stable, winning professional life elsewhere. Mess it up yet AGAIN and the Teal Years may look golden.

Should Mr. Gores be cheered for axing the result of his own inexperienced hiring decision. I guess success in real estate doesn't quite translate. We are about to learn quick fast and in a hurry just who this Tom Gores guy is. Is he a meddling know-nothing Donald Sterling type, or maybe he will attempt to buy a Ship, then again he could be another Hollywood visionary along the lines of Dr. Buss.

[Oracle]

Or how Wise thinks Joe operates

[Sparma]

I personally would give Joe one more year, letting him take the lead on one more hire.

But I were Gores, seeing the empty seats as well as genuine talent that's been mismanaged, I'd offer a 5 year deal BOTH to Phil Jackson and Brian Shaw. Jackson would coach for 2 years, alongside Shaw. Shaw would coach on most road trips. Jackson would be appointed as GM from the get go, but he would move into that position exclusively after two years, with Shaw taking over as coach.

I think it could be done and that it would be good for the team (sorry, Joe). It's cost a ton of money but would still be a comparatively cheap way ($10 mil a year to Jackson, $3 mil to Shaw?) to regain relevance and an upward trajectory for the team. I think the move would pay off at once on the floor and therefore at the box office.

A daring, creative, move is what's needed now. If it doesn't work and the team flatlines, he can move them to Vegas, which he's probably planning to do anyway if things don't work out in Detroit soon.

[Oracle]

Lemon, I agree and disagree!

I think we could hav had a longer relationship with Carlisle & LB, but in both cases, they kind of fired themselves(a little less so with Carlisle).

Flip lasted longer, so of the COMPENTENT coaches we've had, that storyline doesn't hold!

The rest of the coaches were more or less average coaches that didn't do much to warrent keeping, or outright clowns.

I'm torn on this issue! On one hand you don't want to keep incompetent coaches, or more descriptive, coaches that don't fit you personnel, than to keep them for the sake of looking better!

BTW, Joe & Gores have the power to make this a moot point!

Find someone you believe in and give him a 5 year iron clad contract!

[Oracle]

We were thinking the same thing... a 5 year contract solves a lot of problems, but you have to believe in the coach and let him do his thing!

[Sparma]

Time to spend and show a major commitment, I agree. Interesting times. Big decision.

btw, concerning the draft I think that the league requires that each team have at least one 1st round pick every other year, which limits the trading flexibility as I understand it. I gather there are ways to maneuver around the restriction.

Thank goodness, there's no city clearly in need of an NBA team, a la L.A. in the NFL. Seattle (at least for a bit longer), Vegas, and St. Louis and/ or KC may be the best candidates, other than Mexico City, maybe. Have a feeling Gores has one big action in Detroit in him (likely after one more year with Dumars), before he starts giving strong consideration to an enormous pay day by moving. Detroit's not less worthy of a team than those other cities (other than the 20 mil+ Mexico City), but I'm guessing the financial advantages to moving for Gores will be irresistable unless the team turns it around in a big way. Probably not the time to speculate about that though!

[Sparma]

For those who regard a joint Jackson/ Shaw hiring as a bridge too far, let me suggest a yet more radical extension. If failing to amnesty the seriously injured Kobe would cost the Lakers an extra 80 (!!?) mil, as I've heard more than one commentator say, I think the Lakers will amnesty Kobe, enabling them to add some pieces along the new centerpiece of Dwight Howard. What say ye to the possibility of Kobe joining Phil/ Brian and the Pistons later in the season for a moderate price, providing the most needed addition of a scoring wing man? I think that possibility would be quite enticing to a Kobe looking for a final hurrah. Do those ideas mean I should go in search of a science fiction site?

[Oracle]

For those who regard a joint Jackson/ Shaw hiring as a bridge too far, let me suggest a yet more radical extension. If failing to amnesty the seriously injured Kobe would cost the Lakers an extra 80 (!!?) mil, as I've heard more than one commentator say, I think the Lakers will amnesty Kobe, enabling them to add some pieces along the new centerpiece of Dwight Howard. What say ye to the possibility of Kobe joining Phil/ Brian and the Pistons later in the season for a moderate price, providing the most needed addition of a scoring wing man? I think that possibility would be quite enticing to a Kobe looking for a final hurrah. Do those ideas mean I should go in search of a science fiction site?

Kobe is still capable of starting at SG, but here, he wouldn't have to play so many minutes.

My biggest concern is how well the triangle would work with the personnel here now(although that is likely to change).

But that's the only case for Jackson because without a Kobe, his system is suspect!

[Sparma]

Monroe would be a heck of a triangle guy. Not sure about Stuckey! I expect Drummond to become an above average passing center at some point, but probably not next year. I've been reading that Phil's eager to get back in, maybe in management.

[WTF]

Of course Joe is at the bottom of all of the pain, just like he was at the bottom of the good, that way outweighs the bad, nobody's perfect! - Oracle

Look this is how I see it because it and it definitely has nothing to do with a personal dislike of Joe D. I loved our 6 straight ECF appearances as much as the next fan, but I also know why we loss them. You just said it yourself that Flip was an excellent coach and that Joe blew it on providing him with a bench. I'm sorry but it's not a personal dislike it's knowing that Joe stood pat and at season end consistently called out the players and coach. Think about it what's been my beef since 2006 the lack of rebounding and defense coming of the bench. Joe stood pat and the team got older in the process. Deep down I know that those teams had at least 2 more titles in them and still believed to this day that even with Curry as coach they would have played their way into another ECF in 2009.

We just look at it differently because when I think about the accomplishment of those teams I think about the players Rip, Chauncey, Tayshuan, Rasheed, Ben, Antonio, logging tough minutes, I think about Kander and Mike A. keeping them going and then I think about the genius of Flip defensive zone scheme that saved them from a lot of wear and tear. These guys were soldiers ad Flip was a damn good coach. If not recognizing Joe for falling to do his part during this time makes me a hater than so be it because all I see with him is a massive blown opportunity for better success with some was ready to call a dynasty. That 2004 squad was better then the Bad Boys they didn't fail because it as poorly coached just poorly manage, it didn't fail because of that group of players didn't pour there hearts out night in and night out. They failed because Joe failed to bring in the pieces required for them to win come playoffs.

The credit I extend to is putting them together but ding nothing to improve on them is a damn shame. Ask this what sane GM would have stood pat from 2005 on. Come on Oracle it took 9 season for him to make a real trade (2012). If you feel Joe deserves credit that's cool I just simply don't. GM's are just as accountable as coaches and players.

[WTF]

Monroe would be a heck of a triangle guy. Not sure about Stuckey! I expect Drummond to become an above average passing center at some point, but probably not next year. I've been reading that Phil's eager to get back in, maybe in management.

Read the same thing that he's looking for a role similar to Bird and Riley roles. I don't Phil will coach again unless he's presented with a team on the verge of winning.

I say bring back Flip because all three Knight, Monroe and Drummond all fit into his system. Knight doesn't have to be a pass first PG because the offense is going through Monroe and Monroe just has to improve on the that mid-range shot

Remember played his best competent style of basketball as a rookie you can credit both CB and Flip for that.

[Phil-Good]

Who posted this the Sour Cynic?

Thanks buddy. This was the funniest s**h**i**t I have seen in A long while...


Thanks for the great laughs!

Man you one of A kind. A Joe hater if I never seen 1 in my life. But it's OK. You going to have to deal with Joe for A long time. especially if Jerry Slone or some hot shot, young, up and coming coach takes this Pistons job.

By the way. Get ready to hate even more because with Drummonds and Greg Monroe locked and loaded, Joe is 1 superstar away from being back in the Eastern Finals..

[Oracle]

"Yet the main reason for optimism is the potential of frontcourt duo Monroe and Drummond.

Scouts and league personnel think the possibility of having one of the best frontcourts in the league is there." - [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

I'd go even further! In 3 years, barring injury, we WILL have the best frontcourt in basketball, and I don't need 3D Glasses to see it!

Notes to Monroe: Get that 15 footer working and teach Drummond that spin move!

Notes to Drummond: Work on those free throws, a baby hook, and learn that spin move from Monroe!

BTW, this is a good article with important salary info(Also agrees with me that Curry was Joe's biggest coaching mistake!) - [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

[Oracle]

The effer in the black hat is DEAD, which is too good for his arse, and the one in the white cap is still at large... for now!

[Only admins are allowed to see this image]

[Murph]

So please tell me these clowns were not foreign MIT students here on student visas.

Perhaps, it's time for American universities to accept more American students? Just a thought...

[WTF]

Surprised it took this long, technology is a mutha-f**ker. Congrats to law enforcement. Catch the other one alive so we can find out the motives for this attack and after then accidentally kill him.

[lemonpen]

Lemon, I agree and disagree!

I think we could hav had a longer relationship with Carlisle & LB, but in both cases, they kind of fired themselves(a little less so with Carlisle).

Flip lasted longer, so of the COMPENTENT coaches we've had, that storyline doesn't hold!

The rest of the coaches were more or less average coaches that didn't do much to warrent keeping, or outright clowns.

I'm torn on this issue! On one hand you don't want to keep incompetent coaches, or more descriptive, coaches that don't fit you personnel, than to keep them for the sake of looking better!

BTW, Joe & Gores have the power to make this a moot point!

Find someone you believe in and give him a 5 year iron clad contract!

Elite coaches are more rare than elite players and can be just as flakey or ego driven. The knowledgeable organization understands this and is prepared to manage those difficulties, just as coaches are expected to do with elite players. Arrogance amoung our executive ranks fired Cola and LB.

[lemonpen]

BTW, Joe & Gores have the power to make this a moot point!

Find someone you believe in and give him a 5 year iron clad contract!

By all accounts didn't Gores do that two years ago.
My suggestion would be for Gores to simply butt the F out of the process until his NBA acumen rises to the task, and allow his BASKETBALL people to do what they are employed to do.

[lemonpen]

Of course Joe is at the bottom of all of the pain, just like he was at the bottom of the good, that way outweighs the bad, nobody's perfect! - Oracle

Look this is how I see it because it and it definitely has nothing to do with a personal dislike of Joe D. I loved our 6 straight ECF appearances as much as the next fan, but I also know why we loss them. You just said it yourself that Flip was an excellent coach and that Joe blew it on providing him with a bench. I'm sorry but it's not a personal dislike it's knowing that Joe stood pat and at season end consistently called out the players and coach. Think about it what's been my beef since 2006 the lack of rebounding and defense coming of the bench. Joe stood pat and the team got older in the process. Deep down I know that those teams had at least 2 more titles in them and still believed to this day that even with Curry as coach they would have played their way into another ECF in 2009.

Just one question. How can you criticize the roster when in one of those years we managed to have the best record in the L. Wouldn't that strongly indicate that we had all of the assets needed.

[lemonpen]

The effer in the black hat is DEAD, which is too good for his arse, and the one in the white cap is still at large... for now!

[Only admins are allowed to see this image]

I'm not ashamed to say that when I heard the news about Mr. black cap it generated a smile. Our law enforcement is something else when they throw all resources at a problem.

[WTF]

Of course Joe is at the bottom of all of the pain, just like he was at the bottom of the good, that way outweighs the bad, nobody's perfect! - Oracle

Look this is how I see it because it and it definitely has nothing to do with a personal dislike of Joe D. I loved our 6 straight ECF appearances as much as the next fan, but I also know why we loss them. You just said it yourself that Flip was an excellent coach and that Joe blew it on providing him with a bench. I'm sorry but it's not a personal dislike it's knowing that Joe stood pat and at season end consistently called out the players and coach. Think about it what's been my beef since 2006 the lack of rebounding and defense coming of the bench. Joe stood pat and the team got older in the process. Deep down I know that those teams had at least 2 more titles in them and still believed to this day that even with Curry as coach they would have played their way into another ECF in 2009.

Just one question. How can you criticize the roster when in one of those years we managed to have the best record in the L. Wouldn't that strongly indicate that we had all of the assets needed.

lemonpen not really. Keep in mind that this team before Flip coached them had four straight seasons of 50 wins and deep playoff runs 02, 03, 04, and 05. The 2006 team IMO was the most determined of all the teams we had even more determined than the 04 and 05 teams that made it to the finals, but it logged a sh!t load of minutes played unlike the previous teams in 04 and 05. This was in large part because there was no bench, this was in large part why they continued to come up short after.

Having the best regular season record means little in the greater scheme of things just ask Dallas, When you consider how much energy was put into having the best record in 2006 we might have been better off winning 50 games oppose to the 60 plus wins. You can't really expect a team to maintain that level of play with a declining bench year after year

[Go Stones!]

I'm thinking Dwight Howard could make his home in Detroit. He is NOT adapting well to the spotlight in LA. We have the best trainers (Dyess, McGrady, etc). He would take Maxiell and CV's place (amnesty CV). A solid front court of Howard/Monroe/Drummond/Slavsldjfldks/JJ would work for years to come. I may be dreaming, but who else has the money to offer him?

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