WELL, WELL, MR. CLEAVES

[deusXango]

Oracle, what we have here, in Mateen Cleaves, is a poor man's Scott Skiles, minus the Ron Wallace's.
What I remember clearly was Joe stating before the draft that he would not be drafting a player simply because he was popular (Cleaves was popular at the time but, was not the best pro prospect on States team), and on draft night he took my breath away when he called Cleaves name instead of Peterson's...we could have used "Mo Pete" at the time. I admit to having predudice against Cleaves based on Joe's inept drafting practices (Cleaves was the 1st screw up). Cleaves was enthusiastic and amped up (I can see him now, jumping up & down, mouth gapped open wide enough to park a Chevy truck into), and his joy for playing the game was infectous. If Burke turns out to be as widely traveled, in the pros, as Cleaves was, and don't catch on, I'll be suprised.

Sobering footnote; look at the guards that Dumars has drafted, and how they have been handled under his watch as GM. Sad sh!t for an ex-pro guard with his accomplishments. I really hope that Knight is not the latest drafted guard to be mishandled by the Pistons, because I like his style; Mr. Frank is not handling him properly IMHO.

[Sebastian]

It is time for Joe to get the folks, who are in the Nuggets organization on the phone and offer them: Jonas Jerebko (since WE don't seem to have any need anymore for the young, Swede) straight-up for Wilson Chandler.

[Only admins are allowed to see this link]

Jerebko would offer the Nuggets a young, versatile Stretch-4 who would be a good substitute to the Kenneth Faried (PF) and/or to Gallinari (SF). Jonas can run with the Nuggets, aid them in their rebounding, and would be a natural fit added to their team concept.

Chandler could be the starting SF that WE need. The dude is tough, from Benton Harbor, and has don't give a **** posture about him. He would be a perfect fit to OUR roster. Tay can be moved to the bench, or traded to Portland for their 44th and 45th 2013 Picks.

Chandler has just recently returned from a hip injury that has kept him off of the floor, since the first week of the season. In 21 mins., in his return last night, he was able to get 14 shots up (6-14), 2-5 from the 3-point line, 6 rbs., 1 ast., and 3 steals.

Joe wake the hell up and get Masai Ujiri on the phone. Remember, these guys still owe US!

[WTF]

By the age of 5, Burke's local youth basketball league had to change its rules so that he would not keep stealing the ball from the other team. As a result of his prowess, he was not allowed over half court when the other team had the ball.

When Cleaves was 5 he was stuck on the letter "A" and wearing Huggie Pull Ups

[deusXango]

Sebastian, I hear you but, Joe will never hire Isiah Thomas (he didn't give Bill Laimbeer a chance but, Michael Curry got to coach the Pistons), or any of the "Bad Boys" he went to war with. Why? I don't know. When they played together, he stood apart from the team (seemed to be closer to MJ during his career and after), and now that he's in a position to reach out and help his comrades up, he continues to distance himself from them. It's the little things that mean a lot, like why wasn't it suggested to Stuckey, Monroe, and Drummond to pick another number when they came to the Pistons? For all those that think it doesn't mean anything, look at the Lions number 20...three of arguebly the best players (Lem Barney, Billy Sims, and Barry Sanders) to put on a Lions uniform wore number 20. Group retirement? Sh!!!!!t.

Joe Dumars was a hell of a player, who carved out a successful career as both player and executive but, in many ways he's a strange bird.

[WTF]

But Dumars said the Pistons still miss Thomas for many reasons.

``It`s not just 16 points and nine assists every night,`` Dumars said.

``He is a leader on and off the court. He is a captain. You get used to hearing his voice, and hearing his laugh in the locker room.``

[Sebastian]

Sebastian, I hear you but, Joe will never hire Isiah Thomas (he didn't give Bill Laimbeer a chance but, Michael Curry got to coach the Pistons), or any of the "Bad Boys" he went to war with. Why? I don't know. When they played together, he stood apart from the team (seemed to be closer to MJ during his career and after), and now that he's in a position to reach out and help his comrades up, he continues to distance himself from them. It's the little things that mean a lot, like why wasn't it suggested to Stuckey, Monroe, and Drummond to pick another number when they came to the Pistons? For all those that think it doesn't mean anything, look at the Lions number 20...three of arguebly the best players (Lem Barney, Billy Sims, and Barry Sanders) to put on a Lions uniform wore number 20. Group retirement? Sh!!!!!t.

Joe Dumars was a hell of a player, who carved out a successful career as both player and executive but, in many ways he's a strange bird.

DX, the numbers that have been offered/worn by recent members of the squad have always puzzled me, too.

- First, there was Big Ben's #3 that was given to Stuckey, when Big Ben had gone to the Bulls and during the same summer, Stuckey was drafted. BTW, Stuckey should be wearing #9. The number 9 would fit the Bully Guard, perfectly.
- Second, it was Chancey's #1 that was given to AI the minute he landed in Detroit. After AI's contract had expired. Joe signed T-Mac and let him wear #1, too; so by the time Dre Drummond was given the #1, it had been pimped out so badly that it's historical value had been tarnished to no recall of its former glory.
- Third, there is Moose, who sure he wore #10 at Georgetown, but #10 belongs to Pistons great, Dennis Rodman. Moose should be wearing #19.
- Fourth, what about #7 handed to B. Knight that would later "force" Ben G., to change to number "8".
- Fifth, do you guys remember Khris Middleton. Joe went and gave this kid, Rip's number. BTW, WE are still paying him to play for the Bulls. Keep in mind that Rip is the scoring leader in Pistons playoff history.

Yeah, Joe has been really **** when comes to assigning players' numbers.

Joe's history of giving guys the numbers worn by Pistons greats, leaves me with the hope that he will swing a big trade for Rudy Gay (and somehow move Tay) and give Rudy the number "22" worn by Tay.

[WTF]

Sebastian, I hear you but, Joe will never hire Isiah Thomas (he didn't give Bill Laimbeer a chance but, Michael Curry got to coach the Pistons), or any of the "Bad Boys" he went to war with. Why? I don't know. When they played together, he stood apart from the team (seemed to be closer to MJ during his career and after), and now that he's in a position to reach out and help his comrades up, he continues to distance himself from them. It's the little things that mean a lot, like why wasn't it suggested to Stuckey, Monroe, and Drummond to pick another number when they came to the Pistons? For all those that think it doesn't mean anything, look at the Lions number 20...three of arguebly the best players (Lem Barney, Billy Sims, and Barry Sanders) to put on a Lions uniform wore number 20. Group retirement? Sh!!!!!t.

Joe Dumars was a hell of a player, who carved out a successful career as both player and executive but, in many ways he's a strange bird.

DX, the numbers that have been offered/worn by recent members of the squad have always puzzled me, too.

- First, there was Big Ben's #3 that was given to Stuckey, when Big Ben had gone to the Bulls and during the same summer, Stuckey was drafted. BTW, Stuckey should be wearing #9. The number 9 would fit the Bully Guard, perfectly.
- Second, it was Chancey's #1 that was given to AI the minute he landed in Detroit. After AI's contract had expired. Joe signed T-Mac and let him wear #1, too; so by the time Dre Drummond was given the #1, it had been pimped out so badly that it's historical value had been tarnished to no recall of its former glory.
- Third, there is Moose, who sure he wore #10 at Georgetown, but #10 belongs to Pistons great, Dennis Rodman. Moose should be wearing #19.
- Fourth, what about #7 handed to B. Knight that would later "force" Ben G., to change to number "8".
- Fifth, do you guys remember Khris Middleton. Joe went and gave this kid, Rip's number. BTW, WE are still paying him to play for the Bulls. Keep in mind that Rip is the scoring leader in Pistons playoff history.

Yeah, Joe has been really **** when comes to assigning players' numbers.

Joe's history of giving guys the numbers worn by Pistons greats, leaves me with the hope that he will swing a big trade for Rudy Gay (and somehow move Tay) and give Rudy the number "22" worn by Tay.

I dont' see the little fat prick handing out any number 4 jerseys. I can almost see him handing out Zeke's #11 and then Zeke kicking his fat arse right after.

[cool breeze]

This theme keeps coming back that Knight is somehow not a point guard and perhaps either he should be traded or play for a new coach, perhaps Isiah Thomas. What is going on? Knight has been playing really well lately. He had zero turnovers in the game against the Bucks and manhandled Brandon Jennings who had scored over 30 points in his two previous games before Detroit. Against the Jazz, Knight was not the problem at all. Yes I really want Darren Collison but as Knight's back up. Knight has stepped up his defense, cut his turnovers way down, setting up teammates and hitting his shots.

Why not concentrate on what is currently going on Piston fans. Why did the Pistons lose that game against the Jazz? Can anyone tell me? Could it be ineffective defense by our starting big men in the 3rd quarter? How about the defense played by Charlie V in that game or Austin Daye? What puzzles me are the comments made by Charlie V after that loss. Instead of admitting that he needs to improve his defense, Charlie stated that positive things came out of that game. Did anyone watch what D. Favors did to Charlie. I would want to hide if I were Charlie. In the second half, Favors hung in the center of the paint on every Jazz possession and where in hell was Charlie who was assigned Favors on defense? One time Favors got a clean dunk because Charlie was on the baseline under the basket guarding nobody at all. How can an NBA player making $9 million dollars get away with that? And if that was not embarrassing, the next time down on defense, Favors gets another dunk as Charlie again had concentration issues. This must drive the coaching staff mad. If the Jazz had wanted to, they could have fed Favors the ball on every possession and he would have scored off Charlie. How pathetic and you fans are talking about Brandon Knight. Daye played horribly in the first half on defense and didn't offer any offense. He hit two or three shots in the second half but again gave up too much with horrible defense. He cannot get through screens because he is just not athletic enough and has slow feet. How can the Pistons continue to play Charlie and Austin together and get away with it? Opposing coaches are not doing their job. They could take advantage of those two everytime they get into their half court offense.

One final comment about this Piston team. Detroit has had a horrible schedule filled with back to back games and lots of travel. It is clear that they play better after practicing and being on their home court. But back to back games are part of the NBA. If this coaching staff really wants to win games, they will need to recognize that Monroe and Maxiell and Prince have a problem with stamina and run out of gas in the 3rd quarter a lot just like they did in this Jazz game. All of the big men were bullied by the Jazz big men. It was pitiful and only Drummond had the right stuff and this was his first time to go against guys like Jefferson. Detroit needs another big man who can defend and rebound. Last night it was again amazing that Jerebco didn't get any playing time. He is a high energy player which Detroit needed in that game. Jerebco is playing out of position at power forward but would have done much better than all of the big men with the exception of Drummond and Monroe. Instead coach Frank ignored the fact that Charlie V was getting his ass handed to him along with Maxiell for most of the game. Jerebco is extremely quick for a guy who is 6 foot 10 inches tall. Again, my biggest complaint regarding coach Frank is how inept he is to recognize what is going on during the game and being willing to at least attempt something new when things are not working at all.

Oh I forgot what the real issues are for Piston fans. Yes we need a new point or Larry Brown to teach Knight how to play that position. Larry Brown is a crazy man if you didn't know by now. He lost his sanity a few years before he became the Piston coach. Maybe he lost it after having to coach Iverson.

What I did like regarding some of the posts on this forum was identifying some of the things Dumars has done regarding his old teammates. The uniform information was really interesting and perceptive and I thank you for that. Don't forget what he did to us fans and Billups when he made that bogus trade. Do any of Joe's former playing partners like or trust him as a friend? I can't imagine Isiah Thomas being his friend knowing that Joe is so close to MJ. How about Laimbeer? Maybe the real truth is that neither Thomas or Laimbeer want to be in the same room with Joe Dumars. How in hell could you as a GM not at least call Billups to tell him he had been traded. It appears that Dumars is also a coward.

[WTF]

I don't think anyone said Knight lost the game against the Jazz and secondly 1 decent game against the Bucks don't wash away all the poorly played games prior.

Why just specifically point out Charlie and Austin when Favors, Jefferson and Milsap whipped on everyone asses including Monroe, Drummond and Maxiell. Yet you got three paragraphs on Charlie and Daye when collectively the whole team got their ass handed to them Knight included.

[WTF]

Hey Don the Cool Breeze, Knight should change his name to Lindsey Hunter and wear his old number. Or do some cool version of it like change name to Knight Hunter and instead of a number put an X on his jersey or a T and O for turnover.

[FlyDog]

Hey Don the Cool Breeze, Knight should change his name to Lindsey Hunter and wear his old number. Or do some cool version of it like change name to Knight Hunter and instead of a number put an X on his jersey or a T and O for turnover.

Not fair, Wise. I compared Stuckey to Hunter years ago! Get your own material!!!!!;-) I do like the "X" idea though!

[Oracle]

I'm done with this, you guys are too far gone!

You talk about stats?

What I showed you are accomplishments!

Burke hasn't done squat! Cleaves was a monster in college, standing head and shoulders above anything Burke has done!

If somebody puts up the numbers of Bird, Zeke, or MJ, are you going to say they better unless they have the ECF's, Championships, and awards?

Give me a break, you guys are so lost on this one, it's beyond belief!

[Oracle]

Yeah that stuff about Joe is disturbing!

He distanced himself only a little bit during the Bad Boys era, but now, it's almost like he doesn't want to be around them! IMO, I think the problem is that their too dominant over Joe, and he can't deal with them.

Laimbeer & Isiah are super alphas, and Joe isn't really in that class.

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[Oracle]

This for me is a bit shocking!

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If Joe won't trade Prince for anything, where do we stand?

[cool breeze]

Hey Don the Cool Breeze, Knight should change his name to Lindsey Hunter and wear his old number. Or do some cool version of it like change name to Knight Hunter and instead of a number put an X on his jersey or a T and O for turnover.

Wisefan you have not been very wise. And this is coming from a Piston fan who admits that he only watched the first half of the Bucks-Pistons game. Again, for others as well, Brandon had zero turnovers in that game and played a great game and in my opinion was the best player on the court along with his buddy, Monroe. Many players could only dream of playing that well in an NBA game and Knight did it at age 20 playing point guard. I love the way Brandon Knight approaches the game of basketball. He is a coaches dream unlike other players on the team who have been around the league for a long time and who still make the same mistakes. Knight is here to stay which is great news for the Detroit Pistons and Piston fans. That was a wild statement with posters trying to compare Knight with Hunter of all players. Hunter was never a real NBA player. He was Joe Dumars friend who Joe took under his wing while he milked two more seasons as a player and then kept signing Hunter under the good buddy plan as a GM. This is another reason to fire Joe Dumars who cost our Pistons maybe two more championships because he refused to sign a good combo guard. Why do some of you bother to watch the games if you are not interested in paying attention?

[WTF]

I'm done with this, you guys are too far gone!

You talk about stats?

What I showed you are accomplishments!

Burke hasn't done squat! Cleaves was a monster in college, standing head and shoulders above anything Burke has done!

If somebody puts up the numbers of Bird, Zeke, or MJ, are you going to say they better unless they have the ECF's, Championships, and awards?

Give me a break, you guys are so lost on this one, it's beyond belief!

Okay Cleave has a championship big deal but you're over stating it because you refuse to see that it was Mo Pete, Hutson and Bell that really carried that team.

Come on Oracle I could have posted all the Wiki-Fluff on Burke. This kid just as a freshman was All Big Ten, broke the assist record at UM, NCAA All Freshman 1st Team, He barely missed making NCAA All American team so they made him a honorary selection. This Kid had about 15 Big Ten Player of the Week and the weeks he didn't get those he was Big Ten Freshman of the Week he was Team MVP nominated for the Bob Cousey Award Blah blah blah blah. That stuff you showed wasn't accomplishments big deal he had a game with 20 assist, but you posted and bolded it like that what Cleave average.

I'm not impress with Cleave Championship hell Darko got a ring, between the pawn shops, ebay and craigs list you might be able to get a championship ring too

[cool breeze]

I don't think anyone said Knight lost the game against the Jazz and secondly 1 decent game against the Bucks don't wash away all the poorly played games prior.

Why just specifically point out Charlie and Austin when Favors, Jefferson and Milsap whipped on everyone asses including Monroe, Drummond and Maxiell. Yet you got three paragraphs on Charlie and Daye when collectively the whole team got their ass handed to them Knight included.

Wisefan the rest of the players were trying hard on defense including Daye even though Daye could not defend anyone again. Charlie was clearly not trying to guard Favors or any other player most of the time. Game plan for the Pistons. Attack Charlie V. He is a lazy ass player on defense and everyone knows it. This is our 9 million dollar man who should be a leader showing the young guys like Drummond how to play tough defense. Again, coach Frank has allowed Charlie to get away with faking on defense. All Piston fans should be watching him and yelling at him of you attend games. Charlie is equiped to play hard but he is not interested in playing hard like the others. Charlie is only interested in shooting the rock and being interviewed by the press. Teams will guys like Charlie V can never win anything significant. Try to recall how hard those Jazz big men were working. That is hard to do but that is what it takes to win. Charlie takes the easy way out and is a Piston only to cash his big check from our foolish leader, Joe Dumars. Now do I enjoy watching Charlie launch his outside shot. Yes I do but I would rather watch him do it in another uniform. Coaches lose sleep with players like Charlie V. Maybe it was Brandon Knight's fault when Charlie was taking a nap while Favors was completely unguarded in the second half of that game. Yes, Knight is the point guard and therefore responsible for everyone's play. If only we had Larry Brown to teach him the right way to play.

[Sebastian]

This for me is a bit shocking!

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If Joe won't trade Prince for anything, where do we stand?

Yo, Oracle, in the article that you have referenced, Tay is quoted to say:

“I know there are a lot of contending teams that I can help,” Prince told RealGM. “But right now, this is the team I have to help. Everybody wants to be in the position where they have a chance of winning a championship every year, but obviously it doesn’t work that way.”

Tay sounds like a guy, who is ready to leave for his next NBA destination.

Remember: Chauncey, didn't know that he was going to be traded.

[WTF]

Hey Don the Cool Breeze, Knight should change his name to Lindsey Hunter and wear his old number. Or do some cool version of it like change name to Knight Hunter and instead of a number put an X on his jersey or a T and O for turnover.

Wisefan you have not been very wise. And this is coming from a Piston fan who admits that he only watched the first half of the Bucks-Pistons game. Again, for others as well, Brandon had zero turnovers in that game and played a great game and in my opinion was the best player on the court along with his buddy, Monroe. Many players could only dream of playing that well in an NBA game and Knight did it at age 20 playing point guard. I love the way Brandon Knight approaches the game of basketball. He is a coaches dream unlike other players on the team who have been around the league for a long time and who still make the same mistakes. Knight is here to stay which is great news for the Detroit Pistons and Piston fans. That was a wild statement with posters trying to compare Knight with Hunter of all players. Hunter was never a real NBA player. He was Joe Dumars friend who Joe took under his wing while he milked two more seasons as a player and then kept signing Hunter under the good buddy plan as a GM. This is another reason to fire Joe Dumars who cost our Pistons maybe two more championships because he refused to sign a good combo guard. Why do some of you bother to watch the games if you are not interested in paying attention?

I'm going to steal a page from Oracle and say Knight can't carriy Hunters jock strap until he win at least 2 titles. Hunter has 2 rings.

He has 1 game where he doesn't turn the ball over and you think it the greatest thing on earth, like it was something never done before. Hell I'm sure Hunter had a game where he had no turnovers, In fact he hardly turn it over I think his TO was 1.9 and hell when he did turn it over he at least stole the ball back.

Maybe I wouldn't be mad if Knight average 5 steals a game since we can't get 9 assist out him.

[WTF]

This for me is a bit shocking!

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If Joe won't trade Prince for anything, where do we stand?

I think Joe is going to let Tay retire as a Pistons

[Murph]

I don't really have a dog in this fight. I didn't want the Pistons to draft Knight in the first place, but I admit he's shown potential, albeit on a inconsistent basis.

My only position is that we should stick with Knight at least another year, until Rodney Stuckey can be traded or until his contract expires at the end of next year. This is because Stuckey and Knight are both combo guards, who's primary skill is scoring and not setting up their teammates, and so their skill set is redundant to a large degree.

However, I would not exercise the same amount of patience with Knight that was given to Stuckey. Stuckey was given 4 years as a starter (and 5 years in total), before the Pistons organization lost patience with their project PG, and drafted Knight. Knight should only be given 3 years, including next year, as the starting PG. If after next year, the Pistons are still not satisfied with his play at the point, Joe should dump Stuckey, move Knight to "combo guard off the bench" and draft a new pass first PG.

In the meantime, the Pistons should sign a veteran pass first PG (as an upgrade to Bynum) to help Knight develop, and to run the offense in games when Knight is struggling.

[Phil-Good]

Looks like T.Prince is A Detroit Pistons for life. That's cool. Let's just hope when the time comes where Prince has to come off the Pine he will deal with it better then RIP Hamilton did.

Go Pistons!!!

[Sebastian]

I don't really have a dog in this fight. I didn't want the Pistons to draft Knight in the first place, but I admit he's shown potential, albeit on a inconsistent basis.

My only position is that we should stick with Knight at least another year, until Rodney Stuckey can be traded or until his contract expires at the end of next year. This is because Stuckey and Knight are both combo guards, who's primary skill is scoring and not setting up their teammates, and so their skill set is redundant to a large degree.

However, I would not exercise the same amount of patience with Knight that was given to Stuckey. Stuckey was given 4 years as a starter (and 5 years in total), before the Pistons organization lost patience with their project PG, and drafted Knight. Knight should only be given 3 years, including next year, as the starting PG. If after next year, the Pistons are still not satisfied with his play at the point, Joe should dump Stuckey, move Knight to "combo guard off the bench" and draft a new pass first PG.

In the meantime, the Pistons should sign a veteran pass first PG (as an upgrade to Bynum) to help Knight develop, and to run the offense in games when Knight is struggling.

And, Murph, what do you suggest that WE do regarding the starting SG position, as everyone knows Singler is not the solution?

[FlyDog]

Looks like T.Prince is A Detroit Pistons for life. That's cool. Let's just hope when the time comes where Prince has to come off the Pine he will deal with it better then RIP Hamilton did.

Go Pistons!!!

Phillip, that time came and went like 3 years ago.

[cool breeze]

After reading Murph's comments regarding Knight, I am still puzzled with Piston fans who seem to have some formula regarding the amount of time it takes to become a keeper. Knight is a kid who has had some special moments his first season as a starter playing point guard on a disfunctional team who at the time was only 19 years old. He showed me more last year than Lindsey Hunter ever did as a starter or role player for the Pistons. You cannot compare the two players. Hunter just never did have what it takes to be a impact player. Knight is an impact player and he has shown it many times as a Piston. I recall last season when the team couldn't do squat and Brandon somehow took himself to another level inspiring his team to come back and win a game when they were 18 points down. His greatest moment was when he flew through the air for a loose ball and ended up behind the Piston bench where a big can of gatorade fell on top of him. Everyone started playing harder. Not too many players can inspire others to play harder. My feeling still is that there are a lot of fans who just want to talk trash. They have some concept of what a point guard should do without taking a look at the big picture especially who the point guard on a team has for teammates and coaching staff. Frank wants Brandon to push the basketball because the offense plays too slow. How do you avoid turnovers with that combination? Now the same slow players are playing faster so the coaching staff has that idea right but it all falls on Knight to make it work. You don't do it overnight and the Pistons still need better players. They need a back up point guard or combo guard who can play great defense and pass the ball well. That player should be Collison. He is a perfect fit for this young team. Too bad we don't have Affalo because those two players made a great combination in college. Speaking of Affalo, the same stuff was being said about him. What can Affalo do? Why not package him in a give away trade. He is not a good fit with the Pistons. After all, Detroit had Hamilton and Billups at the time. No, we didn't need Stuckey but the team really needed Affalo to get more playing time. Many fans were happy when Affalo was sent packing. Today I looked at the NBA stats and noticed that Arron Affalo is listed as the 20th highest scorer in the league averaging 17.8 points a game. And Affalo's real strength is defense. Can you imagine how good this current Piston team would be if Joe Dumars had not given away Affalo to appease some ignorant fans. Be careful what you wish for Piston fans. Be thankful if Knight will agree to sign with the Pistons when his contract expires. So how old will Knight be when his contract comes up? Will he be 22 or 23 years old. But as Murph said, no we must not give Knight more than one more season to show us he belongs. That is so damn sick I want to barf. Knight is the type of player who makes everyone work harder. Remember two seasons ago when we didn't have any of those type of players. Wasn't that group of losers fun to watch? And we had a couple of former All Stars in that group. Remember how Hamilton refused to play defense and bitched out the officials. Wasn't that fun Piston fans? Maybe Dumars listened to some of you before he gave away Affalo.

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