Murph, mostly correct, but that's the difference...

[Oracle]

Between Liberals & Conservatives, I don't fear change, and really embrace the opportunity to get better and more.

Yes, I'm a proud product of public schools, went to Wayne State, but went to grad school here in Los Angeles at USC, home of OJ Simpleton, LOL 

So while I ONLY consider Detroit my home, my 2nd home is LA! Oh, and yes, you got my salary range correct, which is normal for senior software developers out here.

There are just times when you need to tear things down, like the Police, much less the American System, but tinkering around the edges isn't going to solve these issues, more radical surgery is needed.

So why would I want this when I'm living very well, and can work from home without missing a beat? I believe if we remove the dead weight that I can do even better!

I want to make low end NBA salary, $1.5M - $2M per year. I want to see the best we have make it and stop having these inferior people keeping power year after year.

In short, I want to see competition, something everybody on this forum should want and understand, but we have NEVER had that, never had a free market, no real capitalism because we've eliminated real competition.

In every business I've ever been in and every business we've worked with, the thing they're all trying to avoid is competition. Every business will cheat FIRST and only compete if there's no other way. Cheating is the American way of life!
1. Americans cheat to get their kids in good schools
2. Children are taught to cheat in sports all the time. If they know they made a mistake and didn't get caught, they lie.
3. Americans cheat to get a job

Racism is the biggest cheat of all, it allows the inferior to get things and not have to compete for them... that's real affirmative action, and it's been going on from the beginning of this country, and I don't think it's fair to say just wait awhile... is 400 years long enough?

Then you have people like Don think the USA is so great, but can't tell you why!

1. Was it the murder of American Indians
2. Slavery
3. Waiting to be attacked before accidently helping Jews, even knowing about their plight for years
4. Dropping the bomb on the japanese when they were no threat, watching for months so they could measure the damage and loss of life cause, all while not knowing if dropping the bomb would ignite the atmosphere or not.
5. A nation that was born out of law breaking and terrorism

It goes on and on, so where's all of this good he sees good?

Well, the ONE good thing is the ideas and concepts this nation attempts to get to, but never seems to be able to accomplish.

Those ideas are worth working towards, but they're unrealized and remain hard to fulfill. In fact an honest look at where we're at, we'll never get there.

You have to ask yourself are these things hard to do, or are the people bad... IMO, the people are bad, which Christians will tell you is 100% true!

But never forget...

[Sparma]

I wouldn't dare speculate about Oracle like that, Murph, but I'll be curious as to his response.

I would defend some kind of hybrid system as exists in the US and much of Europe, not as beyond reform by any means, but as preferable to genuine alternatives that I can envision.

In addition, at times, I think there's something to the slogan: too big to fail. That applies specifically to banking, where the failure of banking would lead to widespread panic and long-term problems, in agreement with what you say. At the same time, my understanding is that Obama missed a chance to win more meaningful reforms from banks in 2008. And I question some of the handouts this year. So for me, there's a delicate balance where I want the government to keep certain basic structures of the system in place, including the police, but I also see a need for deep reform.

In the case of the police, I'm sympathetic to the notion that others might be more cheaply and more effectively trained to be the primary people to deal with drug addicts, the mentally ill, and homeless, assuming much of what the police currently does in those areas. That strikes me as meaningful and attainable reform. I heard someone on the Minneapolis city council explain that they'd tried many reforms concerning the police there, and that some in the police talked a good game, but the reforms ultimately hadn't taken. Nine of them now favor "disbanding" the police after George Floyd's death and the subsequent demonstrations. I'm sympathetic with their frustrations, but still think that's a case for serious reform within the broad boundaries of the system. There's a baby in the dirty bathwater worth preserving.

Cool: Under "socialism" with all the types of forms that have been tried, power is isolated with the "power elite" (Plato) where individuals have no voice. You are a worker bee. You can imagine that your voice will be heard but that is a wish not a right. There can be no intellectual diversity under a socialist state. To make it work the leaders need to install "rigid control".

That's simply not true.  As a teenager, I lived in a country in Europe that had a socialist government.  It resembled far more the hybrid that Murph (correctly, I'd say) ascribes to the US being than what Cool claims holds for all forms of socialism.  [n.b. that Cool agrees with Murph's hybrid ascription, as I do.]

I'd be more of an optimist concerning politics, in this country and beyond, if I were convinced that there's a significant grouping of facts that can win general consensus.  Not all forms of socialism are as Cool describes them.  Things become really worrisome for me when disagreement begins at the level of basic description.  Such seems to be the case not only between Cool and myself, but far more broadly.

When disagreement begins at such an early point, it becomes really difficult to see how meaningful consensus might be built.

Sparma....you bring up a very good point.   Let’s take Oracle as an example.  To me, Oracle seems like a big winner of this system.  Everything seems to have worked the way it should have for a Oracle in the United States of America.  

I am making some very broad assumptions here, and I offer my sincerest apologies if I am wrong about anything.  But over the years I have built a mental picture of Oracle.  I imagine him to have grown up in a white working class family in Detroit.  He might be the son of Eastern European immigrants, or maybe Greek immigrants, who moved to Detroit for a better life.  I imagine Oracle’s father to have worked in manufacturing in Detroit in the mid-20th century.   The family was probably solidly middle class in the 60s and 70s and maybe suffered slightly with the decline of manufacturing.

I image Oracle to be a product of public schools and a public university like Wayne State.  He might have worked his way through college and majored in information technology.  After college, he might have gotten various IT jobs around the Detroit area, gotten married and raise kids who attended public schools as well.  Even though the Detroit economy struggled, Oracle was always able to stay fully employed and gain wide reaching experience in his field.  After all, we know Oracle is a very smart guy, and he’s probably adept at navigating the internal politics wherever he’s employed.

Along about 5 years ago, Oracle’s ship seems to have come in.  He seems to have caught on with a more prosperous company in the LA county area and moved to an eastern suburb of LA, where the living is much easier than in Detroit.   He probably has a position of authority and is pulling down $150 - $250 K a year.  In another 10 or 15 years, Oracle will retire very, very comfortably.  

I imagine Oracle to be a big winner of the American system. He has lived the American dream. He is the child of middle class immigrants who came to the US for a better life.  He worked hard, got married, raised kids and prospered.  He has most likely been very upwardly mobile throughout his life.  For the most part, it’s  all been good.  

So I find it shocking, absolutely shocking, that Oracle wants to tear down the system in which he prospered.  Not only does he want to defund the police, he wants to allow a good portion of the economy to fail, and for the economy to somehow reconstruct itself into a more socialist system.   If someone like Oracle wants to tear it all down, really, there is little hope.

I think a smarter move would be to make incremental changes to the system so that everyone, white, black, Hispanic, Asian, etc can prosper like Oracle has.  Don’t  tear it down, change it for the better.  

My apologies for making such broad, sweeping assumptions on your life and career, Oracle.  I hope I’m not too far off base.

[Murph]

Cool: Under "socialism" with all the types of forms that have been tried, power is isolated with the "power elite" (Plato) where individuals have no voice. You are a worker bee. You can imagine that your voice will be heard but that is a wish not a right. There can be no intellectual diversity under a socialist state. To make it work the leaders need to install "rigid control".

That's simply not true.  As a teenager, I lived in a country in Europe that had a socialist government.  It resembled far more the hybrid that Murph (correctly, I'd say) ascribes to the US being than what Cool claims holds for all forms of socialism.  [n.b. that Cool agrees with Murph's hybrid ascription, as I do.]

I'd be more of an optimist concerning politics, in this country and beyond, if I were convinced that there's a significant grouping of facts that can win general consensus.  Not all forms of socialism are as Cool describes them.  Things become really worrisome for me when disagreement begins at the level of basic description.  Such seems to be the case not only between Cool and myself, but far more broadly.

When disagreement begins at such an early point, it becomes really difficult to see how meaningful consensus might be built.

Sparma....you bring up a very good point.   Let’s take Oracle as an example.  To me, Oracle seems like a big winner of this system.  Everything seems to have worked the way it should have for a Oracle in the United States of America.  

I am making some very broad assumptions here, and I offer my sincerest apologies if I am wrong about anything.  But over the years I have built a mental picture of Oracle.  I imagine him to have grown up in a white working class family in Detroit.  He might be the son of Eastern European immigrants, or maybe Greek immigrants, who moved to Detroit for a better life.  I imagine Oracle’s father to have worked in manufacturing in Detroit in the mid-20th century.   The family was probably solidly middle class in the 60s and 70s and maybe suffered slightly with the decline of manufacturing.

I image Oracle to be a product of public schools and a public university like Wayne State.  He might have worked his way through college and majored in information technology.  After college, he might have gotten various IT jobs around the Detroit area, gotten married and raise kids who attended public schools as well.  Even though the Detroit economy struggled, Oracle was always able to stay fully employed and gain wide reaching experience in his field.  After all, we know Oracle is a very smart guy, and he’s probably adept at navigating the internal politics wherever he’s employed.

Along about 5 years ago, Oracle’s ship seems to have come in.  He seems to have caught on with a more prosperous company in the LA county area and moved to an eastern suburb of LA, where the living is much easier than in Detroit.   He probably has a position of authority and is pulling down $150 - $250 K a year.  In another 10 or 15 years, Oracle will retire very, very comfortably.  

I imagine Oracle to be a big winner of the American system. He has lived the American dream. He is the child of middle class immigrants who came to the US for a better life.  He worked hard, got married, raised kids and prospered.  He has most likely been very upwardly mobile throughout his life.  For the most part, it’s  all been good.  

So I find it shocking, absolutely shocking, that Oracle wants to tear down the system in which he prospered.  Not only does he want to defund the police, he wants to allow a good portion of the economy to fail, and for the economy to somehow reconstruct itself into a more socialist system.   If someone like Oracle wants to tear it all down, really, there is little hope.

I think a smarter move would be to make incremental changes to the system so that everyone, white, black, Hispanic, Asian, etc can prosper like Oracle has.  Don’t  tear it down, change it for the better.  

My apologies for making such broad, sweeping assumptions on your life and career, Oracle.  I hope I’m not too far off base.

[Sparma]

Cool: Under "socialism" with all the types of forms that have been tried, power is isolated with the "power elite" (Plato) where individuals have no voice. You are a worker bee. You can imagine that your voice will be heard but that is a wish not a right. There can be no intellectual diversity under a socialist state. To make it work the leaders need to install "rigid control".

That's simply not true. As a teenager, I lived in a country in Europe that had a socialist government. It resembled far more the hybrid that Murph (correctly, I'd say) ascribes to the US being than what Cool claims holds for all forms of socialism. [n.b. that Cool agrees with Murph's hybrid ascription, as I do.]

I'd be more of an optimist concerning politics, in this country and beyond, if I were convinced that there's a significant grouping of facts that can win general consensus. Not all forms of socialism are as Cool describes them. Things become really worrisome for me when disagreement begins at the level of basic description. Such seems to be the case not only between Cool and myself, but far more broadly.

When disagreement begins at such an early point, it becomes really difficult to see how meaningful consensus might be built.

The system we have in place now is far from pure capitalism.  We have social security, Medicare and Medicaid, public education, public universities, fire departments, police departments (for now at least ), public transportation, the military, highways, roads, sewers, water systems,  affirmative action, a progressive tax system, etc.

So the system we have in place is a hybrid.  Regardless of what you want to call it, it needs to be saved, or this country is going down the tubes. People need jobs.  We cannot sustain the social fabric of this country on 15% unemployment, as demonstrated by the last two weeks.  

Murph you are correct, America is  a "mixed economy". There is a force out there that is very serious and intent on destroying our way of life. Is it coming from outside our country or inside or both? We have to find out quickly or our way of life will be extinct.

I prefer a system based on "capitalism" where the key ingredient is "individualism". I know that word is now considered "evil" through much propaganda through our Stalin like media. But i like a system where each individual is responsible for their own life. It can be exciting instead of predictably dull. We need to end the victim game now. The founding Fathers believed in the melting pot. People enter the  pot from all races and backgrounds and then become color blind Americans and look to find things in common with each other. We still need to work on that but if media would stop pointing our our differences, maybe we could get on the right path. The media is driving the hate. We have a system where we are supposed to be free from government as long as we obey the laws people enact. Our Constitution and Bill of Rights are supposed to protect us from the government. That is why people want to leave their country for ours Oracle. There are flaws in every form of government but a Constitutional Republic based on "individualism" gives each individual the best chance for upward mobility and possibly a good life. Nothing in life is guaranteed except for the fact that we will all die.  

Under "socialism" with all the types of forms that have been tried,  power is isolated with the "power elite" (Plato) where individuals have no voice. You are a worker bee. You can imagine that your voice will be heard but that is a wish not a right. There can be no intellectual diversity under a socialist state. To make it work the leaders need to install "rigid control". People are worried about the police now. You have no idea what life could be like under "rigid control". Unless you are connected to the elite group of leaders or leader you make no individual decisions we are fee to make now even in a "mixed economy". That is the reason why so many people flee the socialist model? I prefer God given rights to government given rights. If I am arrested, I want to be thought of as innocent instead of guilty which is the system still in place even in Great Britain. As a super power, America would be a great country to highjack by a small group of elite tyrants. We would become a totalitarian country because of the large population and differing views. People will need to be liquidated to achieve the desired system created by our new rulers. As I study history, I am amazed at how people take our lucky fortune for granted to be American citizens. In WW2 over 400,000 American soldiers died of all colors to defeat the same type of system some of you desire now.

Hitler started almost every speech saying "We have a great socialist democracy". Hitler's party was named the German Socialist Workers Party. The media has created this myth that Germany before WW2 was anything other than a socialist country. A speech by Hitler in 1933 outlined the duties of the individual. " We must here set the limits and lay down the duties of the individual. Men have to realize that the State is more important than the individual, that individuals must be willing and ready to sacrifice themselves for Nation and Fuhrer. There is no isolated individual or an autonomous man." Nazism"says Hitler is an abbreviation for "National Socialism". Fascism is just another form of socialism.

That socialist system differed from USSR under Stalin only relating to property rights. In Germany one could own property but the government decided who could live on the property. AYN Rand has written 12 books on the small differences between the Russian version of Socialism and the German brand. Stalin started almost every speech as well saying "We have a great socialist democracy. Actually few Americans called America a democracy until WW2 when our government was infiltrated by Soviet spies in our State and Treasure department. The Greeks tried a pure democracy and found that if 10 people are starving and 6 gang up on the other 4, then the 4 people will be the next meal. Mob rule so I always hate it when people don't even know that we are supposed to be a Constitutional Republic. That is a failure of our educational system where everything is becoming simplified where people get a gut reaction to the words "Capitalism" BAD and "Socialism" GOOD. Tom Hayden, creator of the SDS years ago had his own manifesto of course thinking he would be the supreme leader in America during the 1960s. He was also cheering when the American soldier body count was announced on NBA each night during the Vietnam war. This is what the bad guys do to create a take over. While the kids are sleeping, the adults are mindless and looking for a leader to solve their problems. There are plenty available.  

Alger Hiss, a confirmed Soviet spy and also our Under Secretary of State attended the Yalta conference during WW2 where President Roosevelt without reading the documents, signed over all of Eastern Europe to Russia where they went into slavery behind the "Iron Curtain". want to live behind the curtain and see what if might be like? Ask those people how they liked that the Russian version of Socialism. The farmers committed suicide by the thousands after the socialist government took over. They decided death was preferable to Socialism. You see once we give up our current system, one has no idea how "kind" the leaders might be. By the way, AYN Rand provides a lot of proof that when the ideas of Jon Lock introduced a form of capitalism in the 1500s and the Rule of Devine right of kings started to slowly lose power or absolute control of people, the concept of "socialism" became a replacement of the rule divine right of kings. No person can be sure to be free under a socialist system. If we pick the right people on the Supreme Court who actually adhere to our Constitution, we can be free from government control and control of the mob under this system we have now. I worry about mob rule which seems to be very popular now. Who will end up being the largest and most powerful mob? When that is determined, then the new leaders will emerge to subjugate the rest of us chumps. So Oracle, make sure you are connected to the right people if your dream comes true.

Honestly I never thought it would come to this point where people would ever think about changing our system of government. I only wish some of you would watch the "Band of Brothers" a Tom Hanks production. My Father's best friend fought with those guys featured in that amazing series. He has written 4 books as to what it was like for a 18 and 19 year old kid to survive while hunting down the German Socialists. Maybe this country is not worth saving if the people are this lame.

I believe Murph that we are in a crisis and it is now a crisis of Dumb and Dumber. What dumb thing will people do next. First the bad cop in Minnesota and then the riots where hundreds of cops paid a price along with innocent citizens from punishment felt out my the mob.  Good people living in high crime areas know what is what and if this happens and if the police are all fired, then they will be helpless. who cares some say because the end justifies the mean to create a new government. The problem is lack of leadership and knowledge along with corruption involving local leaders who want to shift the blame away from them. We have had 50 years of that. I can't imagine what is must be like now for the good people who work in law enforcement. There are bad people who do police work just as there always is in any profession. So why don't people wise up and remove some of the local political folks who are pointing fingers at others. The mayor of NYC is a great example of someone who has no clue. He was telling the police last summer that they cannot respond if objects hit them in the face while responding to a call for help. No wonder NYC is in ruins. Maybe he will be in charge of Oracle's Socialist government. I have a brother in law who also is on the warpath wanting a change in our system. He has always been a victim in life. He is the opposite of his other 7 siblings. Crazy world! I hope the idiots do not win out.

[cool breeze]

The system we have in place now is far from pure capitalism.  We have social security, Medicare and Medicaid, public education, public universities, fire departments, police departments (for now at least ), public transportation, the military, highways, roads, sewers, water systems,  affirmative action, a progressive tax system, etc.

So the system we have in place is a hybrid.  Regardless of what you want to call it, it needs to be saved, or this country is going down the tubes. People need jobs.  We cannot sustain the social fabric of this country on 15% unemployment, as demonstrated by the last two weeks.  

Murph you are correct, America is a "mixed economy". There is a force out there that is very serious and intent on destroying our way of life. Is it coming from outside our country or inside or both? We have to find out quickly or our way of life will be extinct.

I prefer a system based on "capitalism" where the key ingredient is "individualism". I know that word is now considered "evil" through much propaganda through our Stalin like media. But i like a system where each individual is responsible for their own life. It can be exciting instead of predictably dull. We need to end the victim game now. The founding Fathers believed in the melting pot. People enter the pot from all races and backgrounds and then become color blind Americans and look to find things in common with each other. We still need to work on that but if media would stop pointing our our differences, maybe we could get on the right path. The media is driving the hate. We have a system where we are supposed to be free from government as long as we obey the laws people enact. Our Constitution and Bill of Rights are supposed to protect us from the government. That is why people want to leave their country for ours Oracle. There are flaws in every form of government but a Constitutional Republic based on "individualism" gives each individual the best chance for upward mobility and possibly a good life. Nothing in life is guaranteed except for the fact that we will all die.

Under "socialism" with all the types of forms that have been tried, power is isolated with the "power elite" (Plato) where individuals have no voice. You are a worker bee. You can imagine that your voice will be heard but that is a wish not a right. There can be no intellectual diversity under a socialist state. To make it work the leaders need to install "rigid control". People are worried about the police now. You have no idea what life could be like under "rigid control". Unless you are connected to the elite group of leaders or leader you make no individual decisions we are fee to make now even in a "mixed economy". That is the reason why so many people flee the socialist model? I prefer God given rights to government given rights. If I am arrested, I want to be thought of as innocent instead of guilty which is the system still in place even in Great Britain. As a super power, America would be a great country to highjack by a small group of elite tyrants. We would become a totalitarian country because of the large population and differing views. People will need to be liquidated to achieve the desired system created by our new rulers. As I study history, I am amazed at how people take our lucky fortune for granted to be American citizens. In WW2 over 400,000 American soldiers died of all colors to defeat the same type of system some of you desire now.

Hitler started almost every speech saying "We have a great socialist democracy". Hitler's party was named the German Socialist Workers Party. The media has created this myth that Germany before WW2 was anything other than a socialist country. A speech by Hitler in 1933 outlined the duties of the individual. " We must here set the limits and lay down the duties of the individual. Men have to realize that the State is more important than the individual, that individuals must be willing and ready to sacrifice themselves for Nation and Fuhrer. There is no isolated individual or an autonomous man." Nazism"says Hitler is an abbreviation for "National Socialism". Fascism is just another form of socialism.

That socialist system differed from USSR under Stalin only relating to property rights. In Germany one could own property but the government decided who could live on the property. AYN Rand has written 12 books on the small differences between the Russian version of Socialism and the German brand. Stalin started almost every speech as well saying "We have a great socialist democracy. Actually few Americans called America a democracy until WW2 when our government was infiltrated by Soviet spies in our State and Treasure department. The Greeks tried a pure democracy and found that if 10 people are starving and 6 gang up on the other 4, then the 4 people will be the next meal. Mob rule so I always hate it when people don't even know that we are supposed to be a Constitutional Republic. That is a failure of our educational system where everything is becoming simplified where people get a gut reaction to the words "Capitalism" BAD and "Socialism" GOOD. Tom Hayden, creator of the SDS years ago had his own manifesto of course thinking he would be the supreme leader in America during the 1960s. He was also cheering when the American soldier body count was announced on NBA each night during the Vietnam war. This is what the bad guys do to create a take over. While the kids are sleeping, the adults are mindless and looking for a leader to solve their problems. There are plenty available.

Alger Hiss, a confirmed Soviet spy and also our Under Secretary of State attended the Yalta conference during WW2 where President Roosevelt without reading the documents, signed over all of Eastern Europe to Russia where they went into slavery behind the "Iron Curtain". want to live behind the curtain and see what if might be like? Ask those people how they liked that the Russian version of Socialism. The farmers committed suicide by the thousands after the socialist government took over. They decided death was preferable to Socialism. You see once we give up our current system, one has no idea how "kind" the leaders might be. By the way, AYN Rand provides a lot of proof that when the ideas of Jon Lock introduced a form of capitalism in the 1500s and the Rule of Devine right of kings started to slowly lose power or absolute control of people, the concept of "socialism" became a replacement of the rule divine right of kings. No person can be sure to be free under a socialist system. If we pick the right people on the Supreme Court who actually adhere to our Constitution, we can be free from government control and control of the mob under this system we have now. I worry about mob rule which seems to be very popular now. Who will end up being the largest and most powerful mob? When that is determined, then the new leaders will emerge to subjugate the rest of us chumps. So Oracle, make sure you are connected to the right people if your dream comes true.

Honestly I never thought it would come to this point where people would ever think about changing our system of government. I only wish some of you would watch the "Band of Brothers" a Tom Hanks production. My Father's best friend fought with those guys featured in that amazing series. He has written 4 books as to what it was like for a 18 and 19 year old kid to survive while hunting down the German Socialists. Maybe this country is not worth saving if the people are this lame.

I believe Murph that we are in a crisis and it is now a crisis of Dumb and Dumber. What dumb thing will people do next. First the bad cop in Minnesota and then the riots where hundreds of cops paid a price along with innocent citizens from punishment felt out my the mob. Good people living in high crime areas know what is what and if this happens and if the police are all fired, then they will be helpless. who cares some say because the end justifies the mean to create a new government. The problem is lack of leadership and knowledge along with corruption involving local leaders who want to shift the blame away from them. We have had 50 years of that. I can't imagine what is must be like now for the good people who work in law enforcement. There are bad people who do police work just as there always is in any profession. So why don't people wise up and remove some of the local political folks who are pointing fingers at others. The mayor of NYC is a great example of someone who has no clue. He was telling the police last summer that they cannot respond if objects hit them in the face while responding to a call for help. No wonder NYC is in ruins. Maybe he will be in charge of Oracle's Socialist government. I have a brother in law who also is on the warpath wanting a change in our system. He has always been a victim in life. He is the opposite of his other 7 siblings. Crazy world! I hope the idiots do not win out.

[Murph]

The system we have in place now is far from pure capitalism. We have social security, Medicare and Medicaid, public education, public universities, fire departments, police departments (for now at least ), public transportation, the military, highways, roads, sewers, water systems, affirmative action, a progressive tax system, etc.

So the system we have in place is a hybrid. Regardless of what you want to call it, it needs to be saved, or this country is going down the tubes. People need jobs. We cannot sustain the social fabric of this country on 15% unemployment, as demonstrated by the last two weeks.

[Oracle]

But it's also a single case in the nation, and a single day... VERY difficult to come to any conclusions based on this evidence.

The better comparison will be defunding the Police rehiring those that want change and seeing the outcomes then.

So with the Chicago police force standing down, there were 18 murders in Chicago yesterday.  That’s the most murders in a single day in Chicago in 60 years.  I hope the radical left is happy.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/platform/amp/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago-violence-murder-history-homicide-police-crime

[Oracle]

This is EXACTLY the time to debate this stuff, it's time to re-imagine America, how we work, our constitution, our system of government, everything. If we can't work it out, it's time to get out and build something new from scratch. Dems aren't fully on board for this yet, but the writing is on the wall, the hard core conservative base is genetically fixed and will never change, and that's a large number(maybe 33-39%). Since you can't get rid of them and you can't change them, then why keep dragging them along?

But the main point is... if we can't use Capitalism to solve this problem and we turn to Socialism, what's the point of keeping a system that doesn't work?

Hell, a tornado or hurricane is an emergency, 911 was an emergency, I'm not for saving the old guard, they need to fail and let new people rise.

When Obama told conservatives that they didn't build their businesses by themselves, they were pissed and ridiculed him. Well, now is the time to PROVE it, take no money from the Feds, go it alone, but they're the first ones with their hands out looking for a check... it's all total BS!

So why save these people? If we save them they'll just go back to believing the same old crap and continue cheating in a rigged system.

All we're doing is keeping the people that never earned what they have from having to compete with people they're going to lose to if the playing field was level.

That's what Liberals are striving for, true competition. They don't fear it, but conservatives live in fear of having to compete, especially with minorities, who will beat them almost every time, which is proven historically and by the data(see 36 second video).

Oracle...we are in the middle of a national emergency.  The Federal government needs to throw as much money into the system in every way shape and form as possible.  If we don't make an attempt to save this economy, we are going to enter an extended depression, one that last 10 or 20 years, like the Great Depression.  

Now is not the time to debate economic theory.

Murph, Capitalism can't fix the problems it creates. I'm not talking about lockdowns, that has NOTHING to do with it.


What happened when this hit?
1. Free money was GIVEN out... is that capitalism or socialism?
2. Free money to businesses is SICK! If they can't stay afloat when a disaster hits, the "Free Market" demands that they go under, but Republicans, who claim to want free markets don't want that! BTW, don't lump in Dems, they want to give away money, and never claimed anything else, I disagree with them too, but at least they're doing what they always did.
3. Doing this is picking winners and losers, and it's just plain EVIL! When a storm hits, those living in straw houses get what they get.

They need to let all of the businesses that can't make money fail... ALL of them, that's the system we claim to want.

But more importantly, how in the world do people on the bottom ever get a chance to grow their businesses if we keep saving weak businesses from failing.

We have the opportunity to grow new businesses in a truly competitive environment, but the game being played is to keep the current rich people in charge... bad.

And trust me, I was the biggest capitalist out there, but now I see the light. Capitalism is a con game, there is no free market, it's a pay check protection for certain groups designed to keep other groups down.

I don't want to totally get rid of it, but like the Police, it needs rebuilding to work right, the current system needs tearing down and rebuilding.

We do this in software all the time, sometimes a bode base just needs a complete rewrite to modernize, that what's needed in America... thank you Pandemic!

[Oracle]

However, we've tried reform for years, it hasn't worked, but I'd be willing to give it one last try.

You nailed it, they should be held to a MUCH higher standard than the general public!

What we need is police reform.  We need Washington to set Federal guidelines on what police can and cannot do.  For example, any kind of choke hold should be banned, under threat of criminal prosecution.

And speaking of criminal prosecution, the federal government need get involved in all civil rights violations committed by police.  Police cannot be trusted to regulate themselves through internal investigation.  It should be handled by the FBI and federal prosecutors.

Police should be held to higher standards than the general public, since they are given so much trust and responsibility in our society.

To the contrary, defunding the police is the smartest thing to come along in years, and here's why!

1. It's not one bad cop, they're all bad because the gang system they're in makes them so.
2. Defunding them gives control back to the people, and once defunded, you can hire back the good ones and start a better culture.
3. Too many guys that look like me on these forces, they need to look a lot more like the communities they serve.
4. 90% of crimes against Whites are committed by White people, crooks do their business where they live(at least the small time ones)

Besides, it's the particular communities decision, not politicians pushing politically correct "Law and Order" agendas.

[Murph]

So with the Chicago police force standing down, there were 18 murders in Chicago yesterday. That’s the most murders in a single day in Chicago in 60 years. I hope the radical left is happy.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/platform/amp/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago-violence-murder-history-homicide-police-crime

[Murph]

Oracle...we are in the middle of a national emergency.  The Federal government needs to throw as much money into the system in every way shape and form as possible.  If we don't make an attempt to save this economy, we are going to enter an extended depression, one that last 10 or 20 years, like the Great Depression.  

Now is not the time to debate economic theory.

Murph, Capitalism can't fix the problems it creates. I'm not talking about lockdowns, that has NOTHING to do with it.


What happened when this hit?
1. Free money was GIVEN out... is that capitalism or socialism?
2. Free money to businesses is SICK! If they can't stay afloat when a disaster hits, the "Free Market" demands that they go under, but Republicans, who claim to want free markets don't want that! BTW, don't lump in Dems, they want to give away money, and never claimed anything else, I disagree with them too, but at least they're doing what they always did.
3. Doing this is picking winners and losers, and it's just plain EVIL! When a storm hits, those living in straw houses get what they get.

They need to let all of the businesses that can't make money fail... ALL of them, that's the system we claim to want.

But more importantly, how in the world do people on the bottom ever get a chance to grow their businesses if we keep saving weak businesses from failing.

We have the opportunity to grow new businesses in a truly competitive environment, but the game being played is to keep the current rich people in charge... bad.

And trust me, I was the biggest capitalist out there, but now I see the light. Capitalism is a con game, there is no free market, it's a pay check protection for certain groups designed to keep other groups down.

I don't want to totally get rid of it, but like the Police, it needs rebuilding to work right, the current system needs tearing down and rebuilding.

We do this in software all the time, sometimes a bode base just needs a complete rewrite to modernize, that what's needed in America... thank you Pandemic!

[Murph]

What we need is police reform. We need Washington to set Federal guidelines on what police can and cannot do. For example, any kind of choke hold should be banned, under threat of criminal prosecution.

And speaking of criminal prosecution, the federal government need get involved in all civil rights violations committed by police. Police cannot be trusted to regulate themselves through internal investigation. It should be handled by the FBI and federal prosecutors.

Police should be held to higher standards than the general public, since they are given so much trust and responsibility in our society.

To the contrary, defunding the police is the smartest thing to come along in years, and here's why!

1. It's not one bad cop, they're all bad because the gang system they're in makes them so.
2. Defunding them gives control back to the people, and once defunded, you can hire back the good ones and start a better culture.
3. Too many guys that look like me on these forces, they need to look a lot more like the communities they serve.
4. 90% of crimes against Whites are committed by White people, crooks do their business where they live(at least the small time ones)

Besides, it's the particular communities decision, not politicians pushing politically correct "Law and Order" agendas.

[Oracle]

Murph, Capitalism can't fix the problems it creates. I'm not talking about lockdowns, that has NOTHING to do with it.


What happened when this hit?
1. Free money was GIVEN out... is that capitalism or socialism?
2. Free money to businesses is SICK! If they can't stay afloat when a disaster hits, the "Free Market" demands that they go under, but Republicans, who claim to want free markets don't want that! BTW, don't lump in Dems, they want to give away money, and never claimed anything else, I disagree with them too, but at least they're doing what they always did.
3. Doing this is picking winners and losers, and it's just plain EVIL! When a storm hits, those living in straw houses get what they get.

They need to let all of the businesses that can't make money fail... ALL of them, that's the system we claim to want.

But more importantly, how in the world do people on the bottom ever get a chance to grow their businesses if we keep saving weak businesses from failing.

We have the opportunity to grow new businesses in a truly competitive environment, but the game being played is to keep the current rich people in charge... bad.

And trust me, I was the biggest capitalist out there, but now I see the light. Capitalism is a con game, there is no free market, it's a pay check protection for certain groups designed to keep other groups down.

I don't want to totally get rid of it, but like the Police, it needs rebuilding to work right, the current system needs tearing down and rebuilding.

We do this in software all the time, sometimes a bode base just needs a complete rewrite to modernize, that what's needed in America... thank you Pandemic!

Capitalism had nothing to do with the government shut down of the economy and the enforced lockdown.  That was done by federal, state and local governments to protect the citizenry.  And it was the right thing to do.  

Sweden of all places took the laissez-faire approach and did not lock down.  Their per capital death rate is 5 times higher than that if their neighbor Denmark, which did lock down.

So let’s assume that if we didn’t lock down, our death rates would be 5 times higher.  To date, something like 112,000 Americans have died because of the virus.  So presumably something like 560,000 Americans would be dead if we had not locked  down or 5 times the current number.  So let’s assume the lockdown has saved 448,,000 lives to date.  So it was obviously the right move.  

But wait, there are very real costs to locking down restaurants, gyms, stores, theaters and other businesses.  Through no fault of their own, many businesses have not been able to function, due to the government enforced lockdown.

So capitalism was not at play when the government locked down the economy, so businesses deserve a massive bailout from the government to help the economy recover.

[Oracle]

To the contrary, defunding the police is the smartest thing to come along in years, and here's why!

1. It's not one bad cop, they're all bad because the gang system they're in makes them so.
2. Defunding them gives control back to the people, and once defunded, you can hire back the good ones and start a better culture.
3. Too many guys that look like me on these forces, they need to look a lot more like the communities they serve.
4. 90% of crimes against Whites are committed by White people, crooks do their business where they live(at least the small time ones)

Besides, it's the particular communities decision, not politicians pushing politically correct "Law and Order" agendas.

Ok...I’m sorry,...defunding the police is the stupidest argument the radical left has ever come up with, and that’s saying a lot.

First of all, how are you going to do it?   Every policeman is employed by his local municipality.  There must be 20,000 towns and cities in the United States.  How is the radical left going to convince  20,000 cities to independently defund their police departments???   It’s absurd.  

Second, one psycho like that Minneapolis cop notwithstanding,  who do you think the police protect most???   Do you think violent crime and murder rates are highest in white rural areas and lily white suburbs?   Or do you think  they are highest in poor inner city areas???   The answer is obvious.  Something like 90% of African American murders in this country are committed by other African Americans. And something like 3000 African Americans are murdered a year.  That number would obviously be much much higher if not for the police.

Defunding the police is an idea that only far left morons like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Radhida Tlaib could come up with.

And third, that psycho cop had 12 or 18 previous complaints against him, over an almost 20 year career.  Why do you think he wasn’t fired 10 years ago before he could finally murder and African American man on camera?  That answer is obvious also.  He was protected by a Democratic police union in the Democratic city of Minneapolis. The radical left needs to look in the mirror.

[Sparma]

I like the nomination of Kareem as GOAT too.  At least, he should seriously be in the conversation.

Kareem/ Lew Alcindor was my first favorite basketball player, along with Pistol Pete.

One recurrent challenge in discussing the GOAT concerns the criteria used, and how much weight their given.

Biggest winner ever?  Russell, particularly when you include his two college championships, and his Olympic championship.

Greatest (statistical) dominance over contemporary players?  That's got to be Wilt (even with Russell winning all those championships), with the league doing things like widening the lane to even things out a bit.

Highest level of proficiency ever attained?  There, I'd lean to recent excellence, with LeBron being the best candidate.

Usually, the GOAT is seen as some kind of combination, and maybe Jordan and Kareem have the best cases then.

One caveat/ clarification: does GOAT just mean the greatest ever, as the acronym implies, or is it really (primarily) about professional achievement.  Brady was a fine (platoon) QB, but when people call him the GOAT, they're  focusing on his NFL career.

Jordan had a great college career, with a championship winning shot.  Still, Kareem was right to smirk recently when some survey recently named Jordan the greatest college player ever.  I think there's little doubt but that Kareem/ Lew was the greatest college basketball player ever.  So if GOAT's a package deal, an overall consideration, that really counts in his favor.

What some counted against him (and I seem to remember that Wilt was one) was that he didn't rebound more.  That seems like a really weird complaint, given that he finished third for his career in rebounding (behind Wilt and Russell).  Still, that total might be a bit misleading in that he played so darned long.  For his career, Kareem averaged 11.18 bounds per game, #24 ever.  As I remember, some took that average as evidence that he took it easy for good stretches of the game.  Nate Thurmond, somewhat older than him averaged 15 per, but the numbers in the 60s were astronomical (I see he still averaged 17.1 in an early 70's season, and 14.2 the next season, retired in '75).  Wes Unseld, RIP, was roughly a contemporary with Kareem who averaged 13.99, that while conceding at least seven inches to Kareem [by one reference I checked; the dif could even have been 10 inches, with some putting Wes at 6'6'' as I remember and with Kareem's height said to be underestimated, being as much as 7'4"].  Our own Dennis Rodman comes in #11 All Time at 13.12, while the guy we traded away for a distant 2nd rounder, sits #7 All Time at 13.84.  Unseld's the most recent of the guys in front of him; given the tremendous athletic upgrades since the 60s, and even 70s, the case that I think Andre recently made for himself that he's the greatest rebounder ever may have merit.

I didn't mean to dwell so much on the soft spot in Kareem's resume.  

He's got tremendous strengths, including the most unstoppable shot ever.  He's got a great case for being the GOAT, as is indicated by the comparative stats cited by Oracle.  At least, it's a shame that he's routinely ignored in such discussions.

That is a shocking comparison between Kareem and Jordan.  By any objective standard that makes Karen the greatest of all time.  And it’s not as if Kareem did not play in the modern era like a wilt and Bill Russell. .  Kareem was helping the Lakers win championships into the late 80s at the age of 45.

I’m switching my vote for GOAT to Kareem.

And for all you social warriors out there, Kareem has always put his money where is mouth is.  Instead of just selling shoes, Kareem became a Black Muslim when it was extremely unpopular.  And he continues to write left wing columns regularly and is the voice of the far left today, which had cost him a head coaching career.  

[Murph]

And another thing, charge that psycho cop with first degree murder. That psycho had his knee on George Floyd’s neck for almost 9 freaking minutes. He had 9 minutes to contemplate his actions. And he was warned repeatedly by Floyd and several people in the crowd that he was going to kill Floyd, so it wasn’t a surprise that it happened. If that’s not pre-meditated murder with intent, I don’t know what is.

And that freak is indirectly responsible for the deaths of more than a dozen police officers, store owners and protesters, countless injuries and billions of dollars of property damage

Make an example of Chauvin. Fry him. That will give the next psycho cop pause before he commits murder.

[Murph]

Capitalism had nothing to do with the government shut down of the economy and the enforced lockdown. That was done by federal, state and local governments to protect the citizenry. And it was the right thing to do.

Sweden of all places took the laissez-faire approach and did not lock down. Their per capital death rate is 5 times higher than that if their neighbor Denmark, which did lock down.

So let’s assume that if we didn’t lock down, our death rates would be 5 times higher. To date, something like 112,000 Americans have died because of the virus. So presumably something like 560,000 Americans would be dead if we had not locked down or 5 times the current number. So let’s assume the lockdown has saved 448,,000 lives to date. So it was obviously the right move.

But wait, there are very real costs to locking down restaurants, gyms, stores, theaters and other businesses. Through no fault of their own, many businesses have not been able to function, due to the government enforced lockdown.

So capitalism was not at play when the government locked down the economy, so businesses deserve a massive bailout from the government to help the economy recover.

[Murph]

Ok...I’m sorry,...defunding the police is the stupidest argument the radical left has ever come up with, and that’s saying a lot.

First of all, how are you going to do it? Every policeman is employed by his local municipality. There must be 20,000 towns and cities in the United States. How is the radical left going to convince 20,000 cities to independently defund their police departments??? It’s absurd.

Second, one psycho like that Minneapolis cop notwithstanding, who do you think the police protect most??? Do you think violent crime and murder rates are highest in white rural areas and lily white suburbs? Or do you think they are highest in poor inner city areas??? The answer is obvious. Something like 90% of African American murders in this country are committed by other African Americans. And something like 3000 African Americans are murdered a year. That number would obviously be much much higher if not for the police.

Defunding the police is an idea that only far left morons like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Radhida Tlaib could come up with.

And third, that psycho cop had 12 or 18 previous complaints against him, over an almost 20 year career. Why do you think he wasn’t fired 10 years ago before he could finally murder and African American man on camera? That answer is obvious also. He was protected by a Democratic police union in the Democratic city of Minneapolis. The radical left needs to look in the mirror.

[Murph]

That is a shocking comparison between Kareem and Jordan. By any objective standard that makes Karen the greatest of all time. And it’s not as if Kareem did not play in the modern era like a wilt and Bill Russell. . Kareem was helping the Lakers win championships into the late 80s at the age of 45.

I’m switching my vote for GOAT to Kareem.

And for all you social warriors out there, Kareem has always put his money where is mouth is. Instead of just selling shoes, Kareem became a Black Muslim when it was extremely unpopular. And he continues to write left wing columns regularly and is the voice of the far left today, which had cost him a head coaching career.

[Oracle]

Kareem was better in almost EVERY category over Jordan, and he scored all of those points and only made ONE 3 point shot!

[Oracle]

1. Capitalism is a TOTAL joke: When it got in trouble, it did a hard left turn to Socialism on a freaking dime! Nothing we've ever been led to believe about this system is true.

The truth became painfully obvious... All wealth and money comes from one single source, the people! It's the peoples money they're after, and when the people don't spend, these clowns go straight out of business. Time to end this scam... Defund the government, drop using the dollar.

2. America has had many years to do the simple task of living up to it's goals and promises, it's not like it should be hard, but it's a total fail. Tell me another one about Americans being basically good people! The same Americans that horded supplies to keep them away from other Americans that may have truly needed them. And the ones that bought up supplies to sell them at inflated prices... yeah a lot of good people.

3. Dems/Libs, Rebs/Conservatives are both right... for their group! So let's stop pretending, neither side makes any sense to the other, so let's end this marriage and get on with life. I'm happy to let republicans live under the laws they like in lily white towns, if that's what they like go for it, just leave us out of it.

And America's biggest cheat... Racism! It's the tool of the terminally inferior people that can't compete their way out of a paper bag, or otherwise known as the Trump Base.

Simple solutions:
1. Defund the Government(already said)
2. Defund the Police 

But the biggie is to break away from these loser red states.
All of the top producing states are BLUE states, the welfare states are Red ones.
We own all the tech and science that they're scared of, so no problems there.

Dump all of those suckers and wait for them to go belly up and then buy the states for 50 cents on the dollar... of course kick out the residents to another loser red state.

Ok, that's my political rant for today, back to basketball...

[cool breeze]

[quote="cool breeze"]

DX..what are you talking about?  Nikita Krushchev banged his shoe on the table at the UN 60 years ago.   The world moves on.  Russia is no longer our main military, economic and geo-political rival.  China is.  And don’t fool yourself, while the Chinese citizenry are lovely people, the CCP does not like the US and is doing everything in their power to bring us to our knees, with great success.

Biden famously said if the CCP, “They’re not bad guys folks.”   Well China Joe could not be more wrong.  President Xi is the very charming face of the Chinese government. He presents himself and the CCP as benign technocrats only interested in doing business. But the reality is they have long term far reaching goals of military and economic world domination. And that includes turning the US into their vassal state.

Just in the last 6 months, China has crippled the world economy with the corona virus, by lying about its severity and the ease of people to people transmission, and allowing thousands of infected Chinese to leave Wuhan and disperse around the world. . They have taken over Hong Kong, crushing freedoms there and transferring capital, banking and finance to Shanghai. They have sent their two brand new aircraft carriers to the South China Sea to dominate and control  the shipping lanes to Taiwan, Viet Nam and the Philippines.  They continue to build air strips and naval bases on artificial islands in the South China Sea. They have crushed Napal’s independence.  They continue to inter 1 million Muslim Uighurs in refugee camps in Xianxjang.   And they are engaged in border skirmishes with India in the Himalayans.  And this on top of their usual unfair trade practices and ongoing theft of intellectual property.

Meanwhile, Joe Biden’s son, Hunter, is paid handsomely to sit on the board of a state sponsored Chinese company, about which he knows nothing.  And he is a partner in a private equity fund, in which another state sponsored company has invested $1.5 billion.  The management fees on a $1.5 inedtment are $30 million a year, and Hunter is a 1/3 partner, so presumably, Chinese companies are paying the Biden family something like $10 million a year.  That’s big money.  What will the Chinese get in return for their investment in and purchase of the Biden Family?

If the liberal media and the Democratic Party were not so blinded by their hatred of Trump, they would be sounding the alarms.  But instead, they will hold their noses, get the corrupt, creepy, senile Biden elected, and crawl into bed with China.

It’s over folks.  In the last 3 months, we have witnessed the decline and fall of the American Empire.  This is China’s century.  And what better way to celebrate the Chinese century then by electing China Joe Biden who is bought and paid for by the Chinese Communist Part?

Great post Murph! I am surprised at the comments from other posters especially Sparma. But this is America for at least one more day and we are free to express our thoughts.

Murph I have some close friends who have that deer in the headlights look whenever I try to provide actual facts about anything that is going on in America now. They are nice people with kids and some with grand kids but are oblivious to what is going on and the danger their kids will face in the future. They are getting their news and information from social media and places like CNN. Much like German citizens who listened to the radio as the German Socialist Workers Party leader ranted 24 hours a day during the Great Depression, they believed that the Jews were completely at fault for all of Germany's problems. When I mention Tucker Carlson and how educational his show is every night on Fox News, those same friends try to change the subject. They have their world view formed and nobody can change it until it is too late. I walk my dog with one of my great neighbors who happens to be Black. He is a retired Marine and his wife also spent 20 years in the military. They have been in many places and know all of America's faults, but know this is the best country to live in but that might not be true very soon. They watch Fox News and Tucker Carlson. Tucker used to work for CNN but left when the take over of that network occurred. The two news anchors on CNN now help create mass hysteria and are as much to blame for spreading hate and lies.  Many people are in the dark. How many of you watched the video of the 20 year old Black thug punching the 75 year old White vet in the nursing home in Detroit for several minutes. The suffering went on and on until my wife walked away from the TV. This guy filmed himself and he was so proud. Yet a week later the entire country erupted with violence leaving several police officers dead along with a decorated retired hero policeman who was trying to keep the thugs out of his friend's store at night. Nobody knows the name of the Black cop killed in LA and nobody cares. That doesn't fit the narrative. Meanwhile did anyone know that at least two terrorist groups are targeting Black Cops for death? Google took down the video of the nursing home beating. Did Google help the terrorists locate the names, birth dates, and addresses of Black cops throughout the USA? According to Homeland Security this has happened where hacking has been successful within police departments in many big cities. Is that vet still alive? Who cares?Who cares about the old people who died of the China Virus because Governors decided that would be a good place to dump younger Covid patients. Shouldn't you be recalled for that blunder?

Does anyone know that there are two violent terrorist groups who were busy at work in every place where the fires were burning down businesses owned by small business owners who are of all races? Nobody on CNN cares so good progressives don't care. They march together to find racism. How about the nurse who had just finished a long shift in the hospital who took 2 steps outside and was approached by a big man who filmed her while requesting that she take a knee. She says what do you mean? Then it was explained to her that she needs to repent for her White privilege. She was very frightened and submitted to that humiliating request like a good trooper. I wonder if she had been armed when that happened what might have happened. My wife is a nurse and would have taken the beating but this woman was really young and she will most likely always feel the terror from that event. What if that was your daughter?

I wonder what you posters in La La Land think about defunding the police. Tucker Carlson had a real hero on as a guest 2 nights ago. This guy was one of the first Black activist who organized peaceful marches with MLK years ago. He looks to be around 80 years old. Did you see that interview Murph? Amazing how this guy was able to articulate what is really going on with the marches and riots today. He says that Black Leaders are doing this to distract people from their complete failure to improve anything in the Black community for the past 50 years. They encouraged busing which destroyed the City of Detroit and many great high school basketball teams.  Trillions of dollars have passed through their hands. Most big cities have had Black mayors, police chiefs, City council members, school board members for many years. They have done a great job of lining their pockets while ranting and using the "racism card" before every election. The other key factor he mentioned was "WHITE GUILT". This is being taught to White kids in the public schools today. Instead of telling those kids that their relatives from Michigan fought and died in the Civil War to free Black people instead they are taught that they must feel guilty throughout their lives.

Meanwhile Donald Trump has brought on some great Black leaders in his administration and in only 3 years Black unemployment has dropped to historic lows and their wages for even those who have dropped out of high school has risen. Trump is not a politician. Whatever he was before he became President is in the past. He was on the Opera Show in the 1980s and Fox News has ran that show a few times. Opera said at the end why don't you run for President? He was saying the same things on that show that he says at his rallies today. "MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN". "KEEP AMERICA GREAT". How can that happen when since 1970 both republican and democratic Presidents have done the opposite? This is how? Trump gave a great press conference this morning providing hope for those who are not completely brain washed. Trump has done almost everything he mentioned on the Opera Show.

1. Trump is trying to end the policy of sending manufacturing jobs to China and other places in the world and end this corrupt practice of "Globalism". That is when Sec of State appointees and members of Congress and Vice Presidents line their pockets whenever they make a trade deal that hurts American citizens. Hillary Clinton said when questioned about this practice after receiving $350 Million for selling a big chunk of uranium to the Russians, "Everybody does it". " Don't ask the Clintons any questions about Haiti?" Progressives are happy that Hillary became a billionaire as a Senator and Sec of State after leaving with Bill broke from the Whitehouse. How that happened is not important to good Progressives.

(Notice I do not say the democratic party. There is no democratic party. I have never known a democrat who would support defunding the police, sacrifice the entire economy to stop the dreaded climate change, advocate open borders, and make every White or Asian person believe that in their subconscious they are racists. I do not know anyone that I have met in the last 10 years who is a racist. People have gotten rich using the work Racism for far too long.The policeman who started this current event did a horrible thing but do any of you believe there is a chance that he would have done the same thing to a White, Asian or Native American citizen? Is a a good thing to riot and beat up and kill innocent people because of that incident? And are you in favor of the "No Bail Policy". One thug was arrested and released 4 times in one night because of that policy in NYC. Do you want some of those violent people knocking on your door?)

2. Energy independence for America is now a fact. Obama said this was not a possibility and did everything in his power along with every other President before him to prevent this from happening. Just think when Carter was President and the economy was in the tank because the interest rates were around 18% that would not have happened if Jimmy had stopped depending on Middle Eastern Oil. But insiders were making big money at this time when citizens suffered.

3. Lower taxes for corporations and individuals has happened under Trump. My family actually got our first refund in 25 years this year. How about you? The tax law for sure will be the first thing to go once Trump is out of office and then all Progressives can celebrate being depressed again.

4. Trump eliminated thousands of old regulations that really hurt our economy. Aren't you tired of unelected worms in our government making policies that benefit them but not you?

5. Once Trump got rid of some of the people in the War department who love to send troops into battle for no reason and will no plan for success.  ISIS was destroyed in 3 months. That terrorist group turned out to be more than the "JV team" that P. Obama and Brennon kept telling us while thousands of innocent people were murdered in the Middle East and attacks were planned in the USA. I always used to wonder why we were in Vietnam while Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, and Donald Sutherland were on video cheering each night before the cameras when NBA announced the American soldier body count for the day. It is the SDS and Weather Underground elderly who now run the Progressive party trying to destroy America right up to the end of their lives. Hayden is dead but the many others including Nancy P. are still in battle gear. I think she was one of the young women who spit on me and my uniform in San Francisco the day I got out of the army. What a nice welcome to ge spit on and called a baby killer. That is what happened. But my great home town in Michigan did the opposite and threw a great party for me the night I returned. There was no hate and that is all I needed to move on with my life.

6. Trump is making good trade deals for American citizens. That will end once he leaves office after this election. So be careful what you wish for my friends. If media says hate Trump enough, people will not only hate Trump but all White people and all Black Police officers. White people will be afraid to go to any future sporting event and will stop supporting the NFL, NBA, and MLB. Turn off the hate channels. We are all the same color at least that is what my brain tells me. I do not need the media to tell me who to hate.    

For all of you Piston posters please check the facts and do not let the media form your opinions. The 2019 FBI crime report stated that Police departments throughout the USA reported millions of arrests. There were 1004 fatal shootings and out of those shooting there was 28 unarmed fatalities. Out of that number 19 Whites and 9 Blacks were killed by police while trying to make an arrest. Meanwhile Black on Black murders were extremely high. There are some bad apples in every profession including the police. But I do not know how they can put that uniform on and leave their families each day without thinking that they have a target on their backs. But maybe soon we will have no police and people from all races will be forced to get down on our knees and beg for our lives. CNN will not report that on the nightly news as usual. Everything will be great.  

* Sorry for the editing errors. One such error was my typo using NBA instead of NBC who broadcasted the American body count for each day while the Progressives were cheering.They would have been placed in prison in WW2 for doing that.

By the way, Henry Wallace created the Progressive party. He was a communist and VP for President F. D. Roosevelt. It was Harry Truman who saved our country from what is currently going on now. If Wallace had been the VP after Roosevelt died, we most likely would be digging ditches and the Pistons would never have existed.

[cool breeze]

DX..what are you talking about?  Nikita Krushchev banged his shoe on the table at the UN 60 years ago.   The world moves on.  Russia is no longer our main military, economic and geo-political rival.  China is.  And don’t fool yourself, while the Chinese citizenry are lovely people, the CCP does not like the US and is doing everything in their power to bring us to our knees, with great success.

Biden famously said if the CCP, “They’re not bad guys folks.”   Well China Joe could not be more wrong.  President Xi is the very charming face of the Chinese government. He presents himself and the CCP as benign technocrats only interested in doing business. But the reality is they have long term far reaching goals of military and economic world domination. And that includes turning the US into their vassal state.

Just in the last 6 months, China has crippled the world economy with the corona virus, by lying about its severity and the ease of people to people transmission, and allowing thousands of infected Chinese to leave Wuhan and disperse around the world. . They have taken over Hong Kong, crushing freedoms there and transferring capital, banking and finance to Shanghai. They have sent their two brand new aircraft carriers to the South China Sea to dominate and control  the shipping lanes to Taiwan, Viet Nam and the Philippines.  They continue to build air strips and naval bases on artificial islands in the South China Sea. They have crushed Napal’s independence.  They continue to inter 1 million Muslim Uighurs in refugee camps in Xianxjang.   And they are engaged in border skirmishes with India in the Himalayans.  And this on top of their usual unfair trade practices and ongoing theft of intellectual property.

Meanwhile, Joe Biden’s son, Hunter, is paid handsomely to sit on the board of a state sponsored Chinese company, about which he knows nothing.  And he is a partner in a private equity fund, in which another state sponsored company has invested $1.5 billion.  The management fees on a $1.5 inedtment are $30 million a year, and Hunter is a 1/3 partner, so presumably, Chinese companies are paying the Biden family something like $10 million a year.  That’s big money.  What will the Chinese get in return for their investment in and purchase of the Biden Family?

If the liberal media and the Democratic Party were not so blinded by their hatred of Trump, they would be sounding the alarms.  But instead, they will hold their noses, get the corrupt, creepy, senile Biden elected, and crawl into bed with China.

It’s over folks.  In the last 3 months, we have witnessed the decline and fall of the American Empire.  This is China’s century.  And what better way to celebrate the Chinese century then by electing China Joe Biden who is bought and paid for by the Chinese Communist Part?

Great post Murph! I am surprised at the comments from other posters especially Sparma. But this is America for at least one more day and we are free to express our thoughts.

Murph I have some close friends who have that deer in the headlights look whenever I try to provide actual facts about anything that is going on in America now. They are nice people with kids and some with grand kids but are oblivious to what is going on and the danger their kids will face in the future. They are getting their news and information from social media and places like CNN. Much like German citizens who listened to the radio as the German Socialist Workers Party leader ranted 24 hours a day during the Great Depression, they believed that the Jews were completely at fault for all of Germany's problems. When I mention Tucker Carlson and how educational his show is every night on Fox News, those same friends try to change the subject. They have their world view formed and nobody can change it until it is too late. I walk my dog with one of my great neighbors who happens to be Black. He is a retired Marine and his wife also spent 20 years in the military. They have been in many places and know all of America's faults, but know this is the best country to live in but that might not be true very soon. They watch Fox News and Tucker Carlson. Tucker used to work for CNN but left when the take over of that network occurred. The two news anchors on CNN now help create mass hysteria and are as much to blame for spreading hate and lies. Many people are in the dark. How many of you watched the video of the 20 year old Black thug punching the 75 year old White vet in the nursing home in Detroit for several minutes. The suffering went on and on until my wife walked away from the TV. This guy filmed himself and he was so proud. Yet a week later the entire country erupted with violence leaving several police officers dead along with a decorated retired hero policeman who was trying to keep the thugs out of his friend's store at night. Nobody knows the name of the Black cop killed in LA and nobody cares. That doesn't fit the narrative. Meanwhile did anyone know that at least two terrorist groups are targeting Black Cops for death? Google took down the video of the nursing home beating. Did Google help the terrorists locate the names, birth dates, and addresses of Black cops throughout the USA? According to Homeland Security this has happened where hacking has been successful within police departments in many big cities. Is that vet still alive? Who cares?Who cares about the old people who died of the China Virus because Governors decided that would be a good place to dump younger Covid patients. Shouldn't you be recalled for that blunder?

Does anyone know that there are two violent terrorist groups who were busy at work in every place where the fires were burning down businesses owned by small business owners who are of all races? Nobody on CNN cares so good progressives don't care. They march together to find racism. How about the nurse who had just finished a long shift in the hospital who took 2 steps outside and was approached by a big man who filmed her while requesting that she take a knee. She says what do you mean? Then it was explained to her that she needs to repent for her White privilege. She was very frightened and submitted to that humiliating request like a good trooper. I wonder if she had been armed when that happened what might have happened. My wife is a nurse and would have taken the beating but this woman was really young and she will most likely always feel the terror from that event. What if that was your daughter?

I wonder what you posters in La La Land think about defunding the police. Tucker Carlson had a real hero on as a guest 2 nights ago. This guy was one of the first Black activist who organized peaceful marches with MLK years ago. He looks to be around 80 years old. Did you see that interview Murph? Amazing how this guy was able to articulate what is really going on with the marches and riots today. He says that Black Leaders are doing this to distract people from their complete failure to improve anything in the Black community for the past 50 years. They encouraged busing which destroyed the City of Detroit and many great high school basketball teams. Trillions of dollars have passed through their hands. Most big cities have had Black mayors, police chiefs, City council members, school board members for many years. They have done a great job of lining their pockets while ranting and using the "racism card" before every election. The other key factor he mentioned was "WHITE GUILT". This is being taught to White kids in the public schools today. Instead of telling those kids that their relatives from Michigan fought and died in the Civil War to free Black people instead they are taught that they must feel guilty throughout their lives.

Meanwhile Donald Trump has brought on some great Black leaders in his administration and in only 3 years Black unemployment has dropped to historic lows and their wages for even those who have dropped out of high school has risen. Trump is not a politician. Whatever he was before he became President is in the past. He was on the Opera Show in the 1980s and Fox News has ran that show a few times. Opera said at the end why don't you run for President? He was saying the same things on that show that he says at his rallies today. "MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN". "KEEP AMERICA GREAT". How can that happen when since 1970 both republican and democratic Presidents have done the opposite? This is how? Trump gave a great press conference this morning providing hope for those who are not completely brain washed. Trump has done almost everything he mentioned on the Opera Show.

1. Trump is trying to end the policy of sending manufacturing jobs to China and other places in the world and end this corrupt practice of "Globalism". That is when Sec of State appointees and members of Congress and Vice Presidents line their pockets whenever they make a trade deal that hurts American citizens. Hillary Clinton said when questioned about this practice after receiving $350 Million for selling a big chunk of uranium to the Russians, "Everybody does it". " Don't ask the Clintons any questions about Haiti?" Progressives are happy that Hillary became a billionaire as a Senator and Sec of State after leaving with Bill broke from the Whitehouse. How that happened is not important to good Progressives.

(Notice I do not say the democratic party. There is no democratic party. I have never known a democrat who would support defunding the police, sacrifice the entire economy to stop the dreaded climate change, advocate open borders, and make every White or Asian person believe that in their subconscious they are racists. I do not know anyone that I have met in the last 10 years who is a racist. People have gotten rich using the work Racism for far too long.The policeman who started this current event did a horrible thing but do any of you believe there is a chance that he would have done the same thing to a White, Asian or Native American citizen? Is a a good thing to riot and beat up and kill innocent people because of that incident? And are you in favor of the "No Bail Policy". One thug was arrested and released 4 times in one night because of that policy in NYC. Do you want some of those violent people knocking on your door?)

2. Energy independence for America is now a fact. Obama said this was not a possibility and did everything in his power along with every other President before him to prevent this from happening. Just think when Carter was President and the economy was in the tank because the interest rates were around 18% that would not have happened if Jimmy had stopped depending on Middle Eastern Oil. But insiders were making big money at this time when citizens suffered.

3. Lower taxes for corporations and individuals has happened under Trump. My family actually got our first refund in 25 years this year. How about you? The tax law for sure will be the first thing to go once Trump is out of office and then all Progressives can celebrate being depressed again.

4. Trump eliminated thousands of old regulations that really hurt our economy. Aren't you tired of unelected worms in our government making policies that benefit them but not you?

5. Once Trump got rid of some of the people in the War department who love to send troops into battle for no reason and will no plan for success. ISIS was destroyed in 3 months. That terrorist group turned out to be more than the "JV team" that P. Obama and Brennon kept telling us while thousands of innocent people were murdered in the Middle East and attacks were planned in the USA. I always used to wonder why we were in Vietnam while Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, and Donald Sutherland were on video cheering each night before the cameras when NBA announced the American soldier body count for the day. It is the SDS and Weather Underground elderly who now run the Progressive party trying to destroy America right up to the end of their lives. Hayden is dead but the many others including Nancy P. are still in battle gear. I think she was one of the young women who spit on me and my uniform in San Francisco the day I got out of the army. What a nice welcome to ge spit on and called a baby killer. That is what happened. But my great home town in Michigan did the opposite and threw a great party for me the night I returned. There was no hate and that is all I needed to move on with my life.

6. Trump is making good trade deals for American citizens. That will end once he leaves office after this election. So be careful what you wish for my friends. If media says hate Trump enough, people will not only hate Trump but all White people and all Black Police officers. White people will be afraid to go to any future sporting event and will stop supporting the NFL, NBA, and MLB. Turn off the hate channels. We are all the same color at least that is what my brain tells me. I do not need the media to tell me who to hate.

For all of you Piston posters please check the facts and do not let the media form your opinions. The 2019 FBI crime report stated that Police departments throughout the USA reported millions of arrests. There were 1004 fatal shootings and out of those shooting there was 28 unarmed fatalities. Out of that number 19 Whites and 9 Blacks were killed by police while trying to make an arrest. Meanwhile Black on Black murders were extremely high. There are some bad apples in every profession including the police. But I do not know how they can put that uniform on and leave their families each day without thinking that they have a target on their backs. But maybe soon we will have no police and people from all races will be forced to get down on our knees and beg for our lives. CNN will not report that on the nightly news as usual. Everything will be great.

[Murph]

DX..what are you talking about?  Nikita Krushchev banged his shoe on the table at the UN 60 years ago.   The world moves on.  Russia is no longer our main military, economic and geo-political rival.  China is.  And don’t fool yourself, while the Chinese citizenry are lovely people, the CCP does not like the US and is doing everything in their power to bring us to our knees, with great success.

Biden famously said if the CCP, “They’re not bad guys folks.”   Well China Joe could not be more wrong.  President Xi is the very charming face of the Chinese government. He presents himself and the CCP as benign technocrats only interested in doing business. But the reality is they have long term far reaching goals of military and economic world domination. And that includes turning the US into their vassal state.

Just in the last 6 months, China has crippled the world economy with the corona virus, by lying about its severity and the ease of people to people transmission, and allowing thousands of infected Chinese to leave Wuhan and disperse around the world. . They have taken over Hong Kong, crushing freedoms there and transferring capital, banking and finance to Shanghai. They have sent their two brand new aircraft carriers to the South China Sea to dominate and control  the shipping lanes to Taiwan, Viet Nam and the Philippines.  They continue to build air strips and naval bases on artificial islands in the South China Sea. They have crushed Napal’s independence.  They continue to inter 1 million Muslim Uighurs in refugee camps in Xianxjang.   And they are engaged in border skirmishes with India in the Himalayans.  And this on top of their usual unfair trade practices and ongoing theft of intellectual property.

Meanwhile, Joe Biden’s son, Hunter, is paid handsomely to sit on the board of a state sponsored Chinese company, about which he knows nothing.  And he is a partner in a private equity fund, in which another state sponsored company has invested $1.5 billion.  The management fees on a $1.5 inedtment are $30 million a year, and Hunter is a 1/3 partner, so presumably, Chinese companies are paying the Biden family something like $10 million a year.  That’s big money.  What will the Chinese get in return for their investment in and purchase of the Biden Family?

If the liberal media and the Democratic Party were not so blinded by their hatred of Trump, they would be sounding the alarms.  But instead, they will hold their noses, get the corrupt, creepy, senile Biden elected, and crawl into bed with China.

It’s over folks.  In the last 3 months, we have witnessed the decline and fall of the American Empire.  This is China’s century.  And what better way to celebrate the Chinese century then by electing China Joe Biden who is bought and paid for by the Chinese Communist Part?

[Sparma]

I'll begin what I hope is a conciliatory note in a very unpromising way: while I enjoyed watching Trump on the Apprentice years ago, I've come to see him as a bad guy. Using tear gas and rubber bullets to clear your path for a dubious photo op isn't very presidential, I wish we could agree.

There's a growing rift in the country that goes beyond personalities, beyond Trump and Biden, and certainly beyond Hillary. If Biden wins in November, the divide will remain. If/ when Pence assumes the Republican mantle from Trump, the growing polarization we've seen in recent years and decade will continue.

I'd like to plead with us to come reason together, but my aversion to Trump leaves that call unconvincing to those on the other side, I realize.

My hope is that the long tradition in this country of seeking practical solutions drawing from broad consensus will draw many together into shared action, even when deep ideological divides remain. Entering old age, I've come to question in a way I never have before the prospects of the American democracy flourishing in the long run, let alone the highest ideals of the country that were instilled in me as a young boy in Michigan.

Trump has capitalized on divisions in the country, and has exacerbated them, and I regard that as despicable. But then those on the other side might well claim the same of the Democratic candidates I support; that may have been part of Murph's contentions regarding Biden. Somehow we're going to need to point in the direction of solutions, or at least constructive conversations, or we're going to be in a world of hurt, even more so than now. Maybe this forum can contribute mutual understanding, and to some sense of shared purposes. I hope so, but I don't know.

Please, please, stick to the subject. The subject is Russia and the Soviets not being the friend of Americans. I offered some historical facts, not conjecture on possibilities but, cold hard facts that you totally ignored. The Obama's don't give a sh!t about some pissed on sheets in Russia and neither does any intelligent person. If Christopher Steele got paid for a fictitious report on pissy sheets, good for him. It has nothing to do with Khrushchev insulting Americans on American soil in 1959! Two nuclear armed superpowers damned near went to war over the instigation of the Russians. If they had their way, we wouldn't be having this discussion. This ain't about the talk show host turned puppet, it's about our historical global enemy.

If you think Russia is America's friend, fine. If you believe the ensuing cockamamie somehow makes Trump a man of integrity, that's your right. If you never have any love in your heart for the Democratic party, our constitution guarantees your right to choice but, please, please, don't spew hatred, divisiveness, and murderous violence (check Putin's record on the "mysterious deaths" of hundreds of assorted media folk in Russia) which is contrary to the rights the American Constitution guarantees you. That's sucking up to Trump a little too much. With all due respect, why are you here and not there? No true American promotes the Soviet policies by dodging the facts of where we stand and have stood with Russia.

I'm not insulted and I hope you aren't either but, the quality of life guaranteed by the Constitution of America for every man, woman, and child is threatened by sick and twisted thinking. The polls will cure the leader of our political sickness...hopefully his acolytes will wake up and smell the coffee. Russia, Russia, Russia, not how great Trump is but, how poison Russia is compared to America!

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