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SJ Should Not Start

Post  Murph Today at 9:17 am

I think now that SVG is gone, it's time to face up to reality on Stanley Johnson.  He might develop into a useful role player, but he should probably not start again for the Pistons.  The Pistons already have several better options at SG and SF to round out the starting rotation.  

The 'Stones should start Kennard, who showed a great deal of promise last season, at SG, and Reggie Bullock at SF.  We need the shooters to spread the floor, and SJ clearly cannot now, and probably never will be able to shoot.

Furthermore, the 'Stones should re-sign James Ennis to a reasonable contract as insurance at SF, in case Stanley Johnson never improves.  I hate to say this about a 22 year old kid, but after 3 years in the league, this might be as good as Stanley's ever going to get.
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Don...You Are Clueless As Usual

Post  Murph Today at 7:45 am

I remember the year Drummond had at UConn.  I followed the team closely that year, and watched many games.  Drummond came in as a true freshman.  He had his nose broken and suffered a mild concussion in a pre-season practice, and had to wear a mask the whole season, which inhibited his play.  Only last year did Drummond have surgery to fix that broken nose.

Still, Drummond started for UConn and put up some very respectable numbers.  He played 28 mpg, and in that time he scored 10 ppg, hauled down 8 rpg, and blocked 3 bpg.  He also shot 54% from the floor.

Jim Calhoun was still coach and the team went 20-14, and were led by Shabazz Napier and Jeremy Lamb, who were sophomores.


I'm not sure why Drummond's draft stock fell that year, but that was a great stroke of luck for the Pistons.  We needed a big man, and I was lobbying for Joe to take John Henson at #9, because I couldn't image Drummond would still be available.  But sure enough, Drummond slipped to #9, and Joe snapped him up.  

As you know, Drummond has had an outstanding NBA career so far.  In 6 seasons, Drummond has racked-up 46 career win shares, which places him 3rd in the draft, behind only Anthony Davis, who was taken #1 over-all, and Damien Lillard, who was taken at #6.

Through the course of their careers, Drummond has way out-performed Kidd-Gilchrist (taken at #2), Beal (#3), Dion Waiters (#4), Thomas Robinson (no longer in the league at #5). Barnes (#7), and Terrence Ross (#8].

Drummond was clearly one of the best picks of Joe's career, if not the best.   clap
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Wise: Really bad arguments...

Post  Oracle Yesterday at 8:39 pm

There is no "I" in TEAM Bro!

LeBron took scrub teams farther than Jordan ever did, but LeBron also lost with better talent than Jordan ever did... in short it's complicated, they're both great, IMO.

Where your thoughts on Drummond completely fall apart for me is when you think about these facts.

1. Jordan was a regular loser until the talent around him reached a certain level.
2. Laimbeer would be a loser, and was, until he got Zeke & company.
3. Big Ben didn't win until Chauncey became a PG instead of a SG, and he had Sheed to help on both ends, but he was GREAT(see video)
4. The coaching for all of these guys was light years ahead of anything we have had in recent years

You put Drummond on ANY of those teams and you'd also be talking about highlights in big moments, but numbers off the chart!

We have to live in today, but like Bogie said in Casablanca... we'll always have Paris  lol

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Moments

Post  WTF Yesterday at 8:14 pm

What do we remember most about Big Ben and Bill?  We remember Big Moments and not Big Numbers in clutch situations.   You know when AD numbers should have matter?  The last 20 games of the season when a playoff berth was on the line and those numbers lead them there.   How little do those numbers matter because if Ben or Bill only average 5 rebounds the entire season in the same situation rest assure that in the same 20 games remaining under the same situation both would have will themselves to average 10 if it meant getting in the team in the playoffs.  


Truthfully I can't tell you about the games AD had great numbers because they came at a meaningless time, now imagine how memorable his numbers would be if they consistently happened in the last 20 games of the season and got them not only into the playoffs but a 4th or 5th seeding.  Maybe AD showed up in half of the last 20 with almost all those games resulting in failure.  It's moments that define greatness not stats, having both stats and moments that makes you a champion.  Where are AD big moments? We already know that Bill and Ben had plenty and this is why again AD is not better, if all you want to do is debate numbers then I agree AD has better numbers all day every day but he's having them without real impact.  Very Happy
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Numbers Should Equate Winning

Post  WTF Yesterday at 7:18 pm

Here's what I see 

I see that AD gets his numbers against subpar talent without truly dominating the game in a manner that results in wins at the end of the day. Yet I also see in reflecting that Bill held his own against some of the league best NBA centers season after season.  Sparma you might be correct if AD and Bill were playing a one on one but in the context of team I don't think AD could.  Just my opinion 

Again it's just my thoughts that the best talents overall resided in 80's and 90's era where winning and stats were the most difficult and the league was 10 times tougher.  Lets reverse the teleporting and send AD back into the 80's and 90's or even to Big Ben time.  Do anyone honestly think AD would be holding it down with the likes of the Kareem, Dream, Ewing, or Shaq and Gasol and that just mentioning a small fraction of excellent centers.  Often AD desire, will and mental toughness get brought up and we do this knowing AD faces subpar talent.  We never question Bill's or Ben toughness or will I mean never ever.  

I know I argue with a ton of folks about MJ vs Bron and think Bron should never be mention along with MJ, so certainly I wouldn't say AD's name in a sentence with MJ in any form.  I remember MJ 63 points and his early struggles but who was he losing to?  Stats are beautiful but when I saw MJ get 63 and average 37 while losing you saw the greatness coming. So my question is do you see the same greatness coming when AD put up his numbers? Likely Not

AD stats are better than Ben and Bill but when we looked at Ben we could already see that he was a big defensive play away or big rebound away from winning the game for us.  When we saw Bill we knew he was a big rebound away or big shot away from winning a game for so what I'm saying is that AD numbers don't knowingly provide me with the thoughts of big moments happening like it did with Ben and Bill.

I'm saying we can't keep looking at numbers without looking at the rest of it.  Words like impact, win, desire should all be included, the who the what the when should be considered.  
 
Let me also say this that as a diehard lions fan that watching Barry Sanders run was a thing of beauty to watch but it was equally painful watching him fail to gain a single yard in a crucial moment.  Barry numbers are in the record books but in his 10 years those numbers didn't get a playoff win.  In some cases I might argue Billy Sims was better though his number aren't as great.
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Don/Drummond/KCP & Stuff

Post  Oracle Yesterday at 6:02 pm

Don, your hate is obvious! The hate you rained down on KCP is most striking because following the same logic, you should be ALL over Stanley Johnson like a Trump Tweet because he's 10 times worse than KCP on his best day!

You also rain down a lot of hate towards Drummond, can it be because they are both Joe Dumars picks? What happened, did Donut Joe stick a shoe phone up your azz or something  lol ... can you hear me now???

Speaking of KCP, he really should have taken SVG's offer, next season could see him taking half of what he got from the Lakers, but there is an opportunity for him to get to the Spurs, who are said to have a great shooting coach. If I was him I'd look to get there or to the Sixers, both would be good fits for different reasons. Here's more,
https://hoopshype.com/2018/05/21/kentavious-caldwell-pope-los-angeles-lakers-free-agency/ wrote:One of the league’s more underrated 3-and-D shooting guards who’s just now entering his prime, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, will have a complicated market once he hits unrestricted free agency this summer due to the lack of spending money league-wide.

The Georgia product is coming off a solid year that saw him average 13.4 points, 5.2 rebounds, 1.4 steals and 2.1 triples nightly on respectable 42.6/38.3/78.9 shooting splits.

Those decent totals, plus the fact he’s still just 25 years old, could help Caldwell-Pope land long-term security this offseason, though not at the big-money price that many similarly talented free agents received in the summer of 2016.
Speaking of the Sixers, Paul Pierce says the best locations for LeBron are either the Sixers or Houston. With LeBron, the Sixers should become a favorite in the east, and with Houston, LeBron would give them their best shot at dominating in the west... interesting stuff.
https://fadeawayworld.net/2018/05/21/paul-pierce-says-that-lebron-james-should-only-choose-between-two-teams-this-summer/ wrote:“It all depends on, I think with LeBron it’s about the opportunity to win a title,” Pierce was quoted as saying on NESN. “The only teams that I see that make sense for him are possibly Houston or Philadelphia. Those guys instantly have a chance to beat, knockoff, or win a championship, with that roster, if you have LeBron.”
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Stats stuffing/ AD

Post  Sparma Yesterday at 3:51 pm

Thanks for that clarification, BallinD.  I agree that there's a big question as to how AD's impressive stats correspond with Pistons' success, or lack thereof.

I'm still inclined to think "stats stuffing" is ordinarily used as I described, but I didn't include the effect on the team that you highlight, that the individual looks good on the stats sheet with limited boost to the team.

As I hear some claims on the forum, they're quite a bit looser than yours.  Wise appears to be arguing that big numbers are insignificant if they're not paired with wins.  I lived in Chicago when Jordan arrived.  From memory, he averaged 37.1 ppg, but played on a losing team that eeked into the playoffs, losing to Boston while MJ scored 63.  I'm not equated MJ to AD, but am cautioning about quick conclusions regarding stats and numbers.

Wise sees it as "insane" that I think AD would destroy a teleported Laimbeer.  Again, Laimbeer was great in his context.  So was Jerry Kramer, but I doubt the Green Bay Ice Bowl great could crack the Lions current O-line.  Doesn't mean those Lions will be joining Kramer in the HoF, just that we need to be careful with comparisons across time.  Just heard of a St. Louis Cardinal, Jordan Hicks, who throws a 105 mph sinking (!!) fastball.  Some see Walter Johnson as the AL's greater pitcher.  Evidently, he rarely threw anything but fastballs.  Watching old footage it's hard to believe that Big Train's all arm delivery could get him up to 90 mph.  So in one sense I'm going to say that Jordan Hicks is a better pitcher that Walter Johnson was.  A teleported WJ couldn't hang with him.  In other sense, Jordan Hicks can't hang with him.

I'm saying (a) that a teleported Laimbeer couldn't hang with AD, and (b) that taking context into account, we're moving into the need for a real conversation as to who the 2nd best Pistons center is behind big Bob.

I do take the (BallinD) comeback seriously: if AD's so good, why isn't there more of a boost in productivity.  One response, that I'd need to check on, is that Laimbeer and Wallace both had losing  records outside of Detroit (and they were around AD's current age when they arrived here).  Winning's complicated, involving an entire system.  It's rare that an individual makes a massive immediate, demonstrable, causal difference to the winning record of their NBA team: Kareem and LeBron, but not MJ, are two of the exceptions.

Don provides an instance of using the stats stuffing idea [overly] loosely, describing AD as rebounding 4 of his own missed shots.  That sounds like a rarity, but what I would call crummy shooting rather than stats stuffing.   Taken in BallinD's's sense things get sticky.  It's tremendously valuable to the team that AD regains so many of his own misses, rather than having them be TOs to the opponents; still, in agreement with BD's meaning, that's an instance where you'd like greater productivity to go with all the bounds.

Don, you keep mentioning what Connecticut coaches say about Drummond.  Of course, I think he's improved a lot since then.  But where are you getting this inside dope?

BallinD wrote:I'll take full blame for maybe a loose term: "stat stuffer."  So we're clear, I meant getting numbers without winning results; the games where a player gets numbers but doesn't get wins and the numbers appear more important than the win.  

Dre has said he wanted to lead the league in rebounding.  He didn't proclaim he wanted to win a round in the playoffs.  He I don't think has said he wanted to bring another championship to the Pistons.  I want Dre to succeed and this is not hating, just what I see.  I think he is maybe as interested in stuffing his stats as he is in winning, a different take on the term.  The proof is in the pudding.  I think I can count on two hands, maybe one, the games where I thought Dre "brought it" and noticeably imposed his will on the game to produce a win.  The late season swoons are partly on him as the self-proclaimed leader of the team, with a big assist from SVG.  He and Weggie, I believe have dogged it in the past, but part of that is that maybe Weggie is just broken down now and Dre has lost his PnR buddy to injury again and again.  Can he turn it around on his own?  With Blake?  I hope so!



WTF wrote:I wouldn't call AD a stat stuffer but his numbers are without substance, sure they're pretty on the surface but deep down what do they mean when your team only gets 39 wins? Not a damn thing is what it means.  At the end of the day is Gore paying for stats or is he paying for wins?  

We have to stop defending this situation concerning not just AD but the team entirely RJ hasn't earned his salary since day one, SJ hasn't met expectation of being an 8th pick in the draft,  Gore has failed to deliver a contender and we need to stop with the excuses, accolades, cuddling and accepting failure of this team being able to contend.   

The focus need to be on all the things that are wrong with this team and these players. SVG been fired and thank goodness he has but there's a ton of **** needing addressing.  Sure it's okay to acknowledge numbers but don't let it blind you to the facts, don't let it make you soft on assessing the players or the team as a whole.  This team is overwhelmingly underachieving considering what's being giving out in salaries and AD salary put him front and center and he needs to step his game up period.  

Numbers in todays game don't even equate to the numbers of the 80s or 90s.  Really who and the hell is AD playing against because i don't see anything close to the level of the opponents Bill and Ben faced.  This is just another reason why AD numbers don't mean crap it so reminds me of the Bron vs MJ stuff when we all know Bron has never seen the level of talent MJ has.   

Here's a test if you don't believe me pick the top 25-30  players from each era and then ask yourself what 25 to 30 are better.  Better yet just see how fast you can pick them.  I'm almost willing to bet you'll struggle to get 15 out of this era.  So numbers while not meaningless they're simply not the whole story I don't care AD is not the players Bill and Ben were.  Saying Bill couldn't handle AD is insane when Bill handle far better players than AD, and we know what a Big Ben in his prime would do to AD so lets just stop it.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze Yesterday at 3:15 pm

Murph wrote:So Don picks the two best defensive players in Detroit Pistons history...Dennis Rodman and Ben Wallace....and then criticizes Drummond because he doesn't defend as well as they do.  

Although, even Don has to admit that Drummond is the best rebounder in Pistons history....better than Rodman, Wallace or Bill Laimbeer.


And let me turn this argument around.  I'm sure that Don would argue that Stanley Johnson's development has been ruined, or at least seriously damaged by SVG.  Johnson came into the league with huge upside potential.  Not only has he not realized his upside, he's actually regressed.  SJ is a worse shooter and rebounder now than when he came into the league, thanks largely to SVG.

So doesn't it stand to reason that SVG has damaged the development of other Pistons as well, such as Drummond?  


Finally my opinion has always been that Drummond is not the brightest bulb on the porch.  However, he is one of the most athletic centers in the NBA.  Drummond is a superior defender, due to his athleticism alone.

But what if we had a competent, defensive minded coach who could get through to Drummond?  What if we had a coach who could actually improve Drummond's footwork, anticipation on defense, and teach him when to switch or not switch on defense?  If Drummond could improve the mental aspect of his game to go along with his athleticism, he would become an even better defender than he already is.

The glass is half full on Andre Drummond.

Are you kidding Murph? Ask AD's coaches at UCONN about his attitude towards listening to any coach when it comes to eliminating flaws when playing defense. AD never listened was content to always be in foul trouble. Nothing has changed with the coaches he has played for since arriving with the Pistons. SVG was a defensive minded head coach. Stanley Johnson's weakness as a college player was his defense especially when he first arrive at Arizona. Since playing for SVG, Johnson has become an above average on the ball defender and a superior help defender. His lack of success as a shooter has been caused by SVG's assistants who coached the guards where Johnson's former one handed release was scraped in favor of his current dysfunctional release where both hands are on the ball. Funny isn't it that Kevin Durant always releases the ball with one hand. If Johnson doesn't change back to his former release form his career is in jeopardy. But I only bring up Johnson because he has always been a coachable player compared to AD's history of being very difficult to coach. Perhaps AD's basketball aptitude is way below average and he is trying to understand the rotation system but so far as not been able to read and react to opponent plays. Maybe he is trying hard and is not opposed to listening and absorbing information by coaches. But something is clearly wrong and I think being AD has such a long history of screwing up defensive rotations especially in pick and roll situations, it has a lot to do with his basic lack of interest in ever becoming an elite defender. Murph AD still doesn't anticipate well enough to box out his man when opponent shots go up. He has never done it so far and I watch him all the time hoping he will do it at least one time. Opponent teams crash the boards more against the Pistons because of this defect in AD's game.

AD is not a winning type player and doesn't have a winning type of personality. He is content to be happy and dance in pre game and then play a little bit to build up the stats he concentrates on building. What ever happened to THE TEAM and what AD should be doing for his team? AD wants stats while anticipating the amount of his next contract. News flash Murph. I brought up two Piston heroes Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman because the Pistons were winners and those two had a lot to do with helping their team win and they never secured contracts like AD the loser. Unless the Pistons get one big guy that opponents fear as a paint protector and defensive rebounder, then things will continue like they are in Piston land. What is sickening to me is the video of AD working on his new step back jumper. What will opponents do now when AD threatens opposing centers with his amazing baseline hook shot or throws up the step back jumper? How exciting it will be for AD. Of course it won't be exciting for his teammates who can't stand playing with him. The Pistons need less offense out of AD and more defense from him. That is what his coaches and teammates want out of him but no way will that happen. Was AD embarrassed when Whiteside got that tip in over AD two seasons ago to take the Pistons out of the playoffs? Think about that for just a minute and realize that it had no effect at all. What kind of basketball player at any level who was embarrassed because he forgot to box out his man who then made an easy tip in over him in the biggest game of the season and you come back the next season and still do not box out on the defensive boards or show that you are nobody to mess with if you enter the painted area.

How about the players only meeting where AD's teammates were on both RJ and AD for ball hogging and slacking on defense. Most players would come out of that meeting fired up and tell their teammates that they will be working a lot harder on defense. Not AD and RJ the two close buddies who like to leave the dirty work to others. AD was AWOL on defense in many games during the first quarter this last season. The painty was wide open because AD was the last man back on defense. Do you think the coaching staff was happy with his effort or his lack of advancement as a defensive player? This experiment should be over. AD has been a huge part of the cause of the Pistons losing since he arrived because he is not a winning type player like a current guy like D. Green or Anthony Davis. He is not worth the money but could get the Pistons back on track if the Pistons could make a great trade with him as the bate.

Answer this question. Do you like watching AD play basketball Murph. If so then more power to you. I don't enjoy watching him because he is not a smart player. I like watching smart players not players who are dumb as a box of rocks or have attitude issues. Take your pick. AD has seldom been on a winning team at any level. He is the 2nd highest paid player on our team. It is embarrassing for fans to support any team that has players who do not show that they are giving everything they have to win or players who just play dumb. When has AD ever said after another losing season ended that he was going to hire a defensive coach to work with him over the summer?( Last season he said all he needed was more rest.) The answer is never so I do not expect him to ever provide what the Pistons need most. It doesn't make me feel any better to find out that AD made another All Star team as a fill in player when his team has a losing record. AD was happy as hell to bask in the glory of the All Star festivities. He slacked off even more on defense when he returned to his team after the All Star break. The NBA games are long but they are even longer for fans when they have to watch AD perform when he tries to defend the pick and roll. I wish the money the Pistons are spending on him could be spent on a point guard and ship RJ to the G League to finish out his career because no team will take on his contract. It is time to hire the first female head coach and a good fit would be the Pistons. Maybe a woman could embarrass AD enough so he might decide to become an elite defender. Or maybe hire his Mother. I'll bet his Mom could get him on the right page. He sure doesn't respond to male coaches. The Pistons need a number on pick. Either hire the woman or trade AD before training camp. Let him shoot the step back jumper for another team.

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Stats and Wins

Post  BallinD Yesterday at 2:10 pm

I'll take full blame for maybe a loose term: "stat stuffer."  So we're clear, I meant getting numbers without winning results; the games where a player gets numbers but doesn't get wins and the numbers appear more important than the win.  

Dre has said he wanted to lead the league in rebounding.  He didn't proclaim he wanted to win a round in the playoffs.  He I don't think has said he wanted to bring another championship to the Pistons.  I want Dre to succeed and this is not hating, just what I see.  I think he is maybe as interested in stuffing his stats as he is in winning, a different take on the term.  The proof is in the pudding.  I think I can count on two hands, maybe one, the games where I thought Dre "brought it" and noticeably imposed his will on the game to produce a win.  The late season swoons are partly on him as the self-proclaimed leader of the team, with a big assist from SVG.  He and Weggie, I believe have dogged it in the past, but part of that is that maybe Weggie is just broken down now and Dre has lost his PnR buddy to injury again and again.  Can he turn it around on his own?  With Blake?  I hope so!



WTF wrote:I wouldn't call AD a stat stuffer but his numbers are without substance, sure they're pretty on the surface but deep down what do they mean when your team only gets 39 wins? Not a damn thing is what it means.  At the end of the day is Gore paying for stats or is he paying for wins?  

We have to stop defending this situation concerning not just AD but the team entirely RJ hasn't earned his salary since day one, SJ hasn't met expectation of being an 8th pick in the draft,  Gore has failed to deliver a contender and we need to stop with the excuses, accolades, cuddling and accepting failure of this team being able to contend.   

The focus need to be on all the things that are wrong with this team and these players. SVG been fired and thank goodness he has but there's a ton of **** needing addressing.  Sure it's okay to acknowledge numbers but don't let it blind you to the facts, don't let it make you soft on assessing the players or the team as a whole.  This team is overwhelmingly underachieving considering what's being giving out in salaries and AD salary put him front and center and he needs to step his game up period.  

Numbers in todays game don't even equate to the numbers of the 80s or 90s.  Really who and the hell is AD playing against because i don't see anything close to the level of the opponents Bill and Ben faced.  This is just another reason why AD numbers don't mean crap it so reminds me of the Bron vs MJ stuff when we all know Bron has never seen the level of talent MJ has.   

Here's a test if you don't believe me pick the top 25-30  players from each era and then ask yourself what 25 to 30 are better.  Better yet just see how fast you can pick them.  I'm almost willing to bet you'll struggle to get 15 out of this era.  So numbers while not meaningless they're simply not the whole story I don't care AD is not the players Bill and Ben were.  Saying Bill couldn't handle AD is insane when Bill handle far better players than AD, and we know what a Big Ben in his prime would do to AD so lets just stop it.
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Dear People

Post  WTF Yesterday at 12:06 pm

I wouldn't call AD a stat stuffer but his numbers are without substance, sure they're pretty on the surface but deep down what do they mean when your team only gets 39 wins? Not a damn thing is what it means.  At the end of the day is Gore paying for stats or is he paying for wins?  

We have to stop defending this situation concerning not just AD but the team entirely RJ hasn't earned his salary since day one, SJ hasn't met expectation of being an 8th pick in the draft,  Gore has failed to deliver a contender and we need to stop with the excuses, accolades, cuddling and accepting failure of this team being able to contend.   

The focus need to be on all the things that are wrong with this team and these players. SVG been fired and thank goodness he has but there's a ton of **** needing addressing.  Sure it's okay to acknowledge numbers but don't let it blind you to the facts, don't let it make you soft on assessing the players or the team as a whole.  This team is overwhelmingly underachieving considering what's being giving out in salaries and AD salary put him front and center and he needs to step his game up period.  

Numbers in todays game don't even equate to the numbers of the 80s or 90s.  Really who and the hell is AD playing against because i don't see anything close to the level of the opponents Bill and Ben faced.  This is just another reason why AD numbers don't mean crap it so reminds me of the Bron vs MJ stuff when we all know Bron has never seen the level of talent MJ has.   

Here's a test if you don't believe me pick the top 25-30  players from each era and then ask yourself what 25 to 30 are better.  Better yet just see how fast you can pick them.  I'm almost willing to bet you'll struggle to get 15 out of this era.  So numbers while not meaningless they're simply not the whole story I don't care AD is not the players Bill and Ben were.  Saying Bill couldn't handle AD is insane when Bill handle far better players than AD, and we know what a Big Ben in his prime would do to AD so lets just stop it.
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The Insanity Continues

Post  Murph Yesterday at 7:22 am

So Don picks the two best defensive players in Detroit Pistons history...Dennis Rodman and Ben Wallace....and then criticizes Drummond because he doesn't defend as well as they do.  

Although, even Don has to admit that Drummond is the best rebounder in Pistons history....better than Rodman, Wallace or Bill Laimbeer.


And let me turn this argument around.  I'm sure that Don would argue that Stanley Johnson's development has been ruined, or at least seriously damaged by SVG.  Johnson came into the league with huge upside potential.  Not only has he not realized his upside, he's actually regressed.  SJ is a worse shooter and rebounder now than when he came into the league, thanks largely to SVG.

So doesn't it stand to reason that SVG has damaged the development of other Pistons as well, such as Drummond?  


Finally my opinion has always been that Drummond is not the brightest bulb on the porch.  However, he is one of the most athletic centers in the NBA.  Drummond is a superior defender, due to his athleticism alone.

But what if we had a competent, defensive minded coach who could get through to Drummond?  What if we had a coach who could actually improve Drummond's footwork, anticipation on defense, and teach him when to switch or not switch on defense?  If Drummond could improve the mental aspect of his game to go along with his athleticism, he would become an even better defender than he already is.

The glass is half full on Andre Drummond.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Mon May 21, 2018 11:52 pm

Sparma wrote:To me stats "stuffing" implies a purposeful, regular, misleading pattern.  Are we in agreement about the definition?

I'm sure there's an added offensive rebound once in a while, but I think it'd be rare.  Feel free to supply examples going beyond Drummond, because I've got a general interest in the question.    

What Drummond's best at -- offensive rebounding -- has got to be one of the most stats-stuffing-resistant categories around.

I'm issuing a specific challenge for an explanation, rather than denying that AD ever stuffs stats.  We've all seen Centers gather the easy defensive rebound while everyone else heads up court; teammates often defer to the big bounds guys when gathered by a ball on D.  

On the offensive boards, such deference might happen once in a while, but there wouldn't often be occasions for such polite nods to stats stuffing teammates on O.  Whereas plenty of defensive rebounds are cheap, offensive rebounds are usually hard-earned, e.g., by beating an opponent who has inside position on a FT.  Yes, there can be weird bounces, flukes, but I'm not seeing how those would count as stats "stuffing."  Didn't Rondo miss a shot on purpose once in pursuit of an offensive rebound to complete a triple double.  So maybe that would be example, even though it would be highly exceptional?  AD's good at recovering his own misses; maybe some of those don't count as heroic rebounds, but I don't see why they'd count as stats stuffing.

No doubt stats stuffing happens.

Again, on defensive rebounding it happens.  (Here I wonder if Dre does this any more than, say, Ben Wallace who didn't seem to mind collecting a stray ball while not challenged or taking ownership of a bound instead of a teammate who could collect it.)

The major stats stuffing that occurs to me happens on scoring.  We all know of guys who put up a big point total, with a bunch of shots paired.  Wilt had a heck of an efficient night when he scored 100 (eg going 28 of 32 from the line), but evidently he was sheepish about the 60 shots he put up.  At least he was efficient then; plenty of guys with nice points totals are inefficient game after game.

Steals can be an opportunity for stats stuffing too.  I remember AI being accused of putting up impressive steal stats, covering for being a weak defender by taking inordinate chances to intercept balls in passing lanes.  So maybe that's an example.

You can't fake your FT %, but some guys excel at inflating the number of times they get to the line, so maybe that's another form of stats stuff.

But I'm puzzled by the idea of stats stuffing on the offensive boards, even if an occasional offensive bound seems a bit cheap.  How does such stats stuffing on the offensive boards occur?  I'm genuinely stumped, apart from the occasional example that doesn't seem to rise to the level of "stuffing" if my initial description is on track   I used to love to go for rebounds myself, and was happy to collect cheapies; I've gotten flukish bounds on O too, but am having trouble also from my own experience seeing how the notion of stats stuffing applies on the offensive boards.

AD gets a lot of offensive rebounds and that does take effort. I also agree that the accumulation he gets often involves his own missed shots. I have seen AD get 4 offensive rebounds on one offensive possession. Usually coaches glance at stat sheets only to compare what they have seen for themselves in a game knowing already what they need to know. In the NBA it seems that stats are important for agents to sell their client in the next contract negotiations. Rebounding is important and especially defensive rebounding. AD's emphasis is on getting offensive stats. He has never been excited about playing defense and it shows. However, players like Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman did love doing all the little things it takes to be a great defensive rebounder. Rodman's man to man defensive effort and his fighting instincts to make that extra effort to get positioning for the biggest rebounds of a big game was incredible. Many of us call it quick recognition skills where players like Rodman anticipate where the opponent play is going or where opponents are going to crash the offensive boards on missed shots. Rodman had it and Ben Wallace had the right stuff that makes the difference between winning and losing games. That is why I say AD's stats are fools gold. AD's mind does not work as quickly as Rodman's when he plays defense or tries to protect the paint. A big part of opponent's game plans involve crashing the offensive boards because our Pistons have no player with the instincts of Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman. A cool guy to watch is Drayman Green when Golden State is playing defense. He knows opponent plays and takes makes a supreme effort to outwork everyone in the paint. He is undersized but playing winning basketball. AD is not that kind of player as we all know. If we had just one player who played like Green our Pistons would be a lot more fun to watch. But for now we must be content to listen to the announcers talk about AD's rebounding stats while we see another loss.

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AD & Stats stuffing on offensive boards

Post  Sparma on Mon May 21, 2018 11:47 pm

Thinking some more about how stats stuffing on the offensive boards could happen, I was thinking that for it to happen on a regular basis it would need to happen with a partner.

I'd passed along Terry Pluto's descriptions in Tall Tales about how Bill Russell hugely benefited as rebounder from Tommy Heinsohn setting blocks, and Jerry Lucas as rebounder from Wayne Embry setting blocks. I was slow to realize that could be a pattern on the offensive boards, not just on D.

Part of the reason that didn't dawn on me is that I don't think AD has such a partner in crime on the offensive rebounds. So much of what he does there seems to result from solo work as an incredible leaper who able to jump again and again in short order (as Kelser's observed). The guy who may do some supplementary work helping AD there would be Tolliver, from my observations, rather than Griffin.

Shifting: thanks for your kind comment, Deus. Griffin's easily the best PF AD's played for. As I remember, they do have positive numbers together. I don't see them as a terrible fit, but they're not a great fit either (eg AD's a better than average passer for a Center, but Blake seemed to cut into that role). On the current topic, I don't see the two as a very good supplemental rebounding team (as I think Mahorn and Laimbeer were, for instance).

In all, I'm guessing that we can agree that AD's offensive rebounding is his most outstanding trait. AD often faces the charge of stats stuffing. Yet offensive rebounding looks like an unusually stats-stuffing resistant capacity. And the possible exceptions that I can think of don't really seem to apply to AD. When focusing on AD's most outstanding ability, it's hard to give much credence to the stats stuffing charge. Maybe in other areas, like defensive rebounding ....?


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How do you stuff offensive rebounding stats?

Post  Sparma on Mon May 21, 2018 11:07 pm

To me stats "stuffing" implies a purposeful, regular, misleading pattern. Are we in agreement about the definition?

I'm sure there's an added offensive rebound once in a while, but I think it'd be rare. Feel free to supply examples going beyond Drummond, because I've got a general interest in the question.

What Drummond's best at -- offensive rebounding -- has got to be one of the most stats-stuffing-resistant categories around.

I'm issuing a specific challenge for an explanation, rather than denying that AD ever stuffs stats. We've all seen Centers gather the easy defensive rebound while everyone else heads up court; teammates often defer to the big bounds guys when gathered by a ball on D.

On the offensive boards, such deference might happen once in a while, but there wouldn't often be occasions for such polite nods to stats stuffing teammates on O. Whereas plenty of defensive rebounds are cheap, offensive rebounds are usually hard-earned, e.g., by beating an opponent who has inside position on a FT. Yes, there can be weird bounces, flukes, but I'm not seeing how those would count as stats "stuffing." Didn't Rondo miss a shot on purpose once in pursuit of an offensive rebound to complete a triple double. So maybe that would be example, even though it would be highly exceptional? AD's good at recovering his own misses; maybe some of those don't count as heroic rebounds, but I don't see why they'd count as stats stuffing.

No doubt stats stuffing happens.

Again, on defensive rebounding it happens. (Here I wonder if Dre does this any more than, say, Ben Wallace who didn't seem to mind collecting a stray ball while not challenged or taking ownership of a bound instead of a teammate who could collect it.)

The major stats stuffing that occurs to me happens on scoring. We all know of guys who put up a big point total, with a bunch of shots paired. Wilt had a heck of an efficient night when he scored 100 (eg going 28 of 32 from the line), but evidently he was sheepish about the 60 shots he put up. At least he was efficient then; plenty of guys with nice points totals are inefficient game after game.

Steals can be an opportunity for stats stuffing too. I remember AI being accused of putting up impressive steal stats, covering for being a weak defender by taking inordinate chances to intercept balls in passing lanes. So maybe that's an example.

You can't fake your FT %, but some guys excel at inflating the number of times they get to the line, so maybe that's another form of stats stuff.

But I'm puzzled by the idea of stats stuffing on the offensive boards, even if an occasional offensive bound seems a bit cheap. How does such stats stuffing on the offensive boards occur? I'm genuinely stumped, apart from the occasional example that doesn't seem to rise to the level of "stuffing" if my initial description is on track I used to love to go for rebounds myself, and was happy to collect cheapies; I've gotten flukish bounds on O too, but am having trouble also from my own experience seeing how the notion of stats stuffing applies on the offensive boards.
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Just Stop

Post  BallinD on Mon May 21, 2018 9:24 pm

WTF wrote:Athletes should never play to be 2nd best and fans should not encourage it.  They should always want to be the best at what they do especially with these outrageous salaries of theirs.   So perhaps as far-fetching my expectation are to win championships every year are it doesn't change the fact that this must be the mindset every single season.  

This is why I'm saying this group as is if motivated and dedicated and properly coached could be in the finals this year and next year.  It wasn't the talent that got us 3 titles in the past it was the will and heart of those teams, we didn't have the most talent than a lot of teams we had stronger WILLS.

STOP PRAISING THEM FOR FAILING

Who in the Hell wants a stat stuffer, a whiner, a front-runner of the modern era.  Well, maybe Dre has grown up?  I hope so.
I believe maybe he has.  Do I believe for one minute his main-boy Weggie has grown up?  13 assists in the final game before the ankle injury is tantalizing for sure, but I am not sold one bit!  And he is Andre's favorite guy.  I was listening to a lions podcast and out slipped a comment from Matt Dery that Andre has a close friendhip with Ebron...EBRON?!?!  If true, I hope he will find some new friends beyond Ebron/Weggie.  Can you please befriend a WINNER!  If not, emulate that, then I don't give a damn how many rebounds you get, you will never win.  You gotta be vicious!

He is young, and I do not blame him alone, for his earlier failings, and I totally acknowledge the major step-up in his game this year.  I think Blake, with his level of skill, if he and Dre are really close, will certainly, by example, help some with skills, efforts, etc.  Dre obviously needs to be coached up too, if we can get some Pistons DNA in here.  Good Riddance SVG.  Good Riddance Weggie! -- not a winner, hard worker, two-way player, team player.

One thing is for sure, in this era you need look no further than Lebron, Draymond, Westbrook, Kemba, AD, who leave it on the court and look at our players and have to squint to find that level of aggression and effort.  @WTF; Smiling and dancing after losses would not be happening if Big Shot or Zeke were running things here.  Why can no one in power get that?
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IJS

Post  WTF on Mon May 21, 2018 7:30 pm

Athletes should never play to be 2nd best and fans should not encourage it.  They should always want to be the best at what they do especially with these outrageous salaries of theirs.   So perhaps as far-fetching my expectation are to win championships every year are it doesn't change the fact that this must be the mindset every single season.  

For us that played sports I can guess as athletes our thoughts were to win, not some of the time but all the time.  But in failure we ask did we try our best? did we give our all?  We simply put in on the line each time we got on the field of play because winning matters, it's the only thing that should matter as an athlete.  The games are played to be won not lost.   I think we need to stop settling for hopes of 8th seeds, and all these better luck next season pep talks and all this waiting and seeing crap.  The thought should always be to win now.  

My problem with today's players is this, while it's okay to wait for the talent to develop the mindset of being a champion should already be their,  that the losing hurts and failure is not acceptable.   That pain makes you go hard in the off-season, it makes you practice harder and it motivates you.  IMO AD plays for stats as do most players because they find value in numbers.   Sorry I'm not patting AD on his head for stats but I would for the effort he shows on the floor if he laid it all on the line every night.  This makes him far less superior to the BIll and Big Ben.   You never seen them happy and grinning after a loss or getting their ass handed to them but we certainly will see AD happy and grinning during a as whipping on the sidelines when he should be kicking over the Gatorade, and chewing out team mates.  

This isn't just AD but the entire bunch so I'm not just picking on AD but he does get it the most because he's been tag franchise, face of this team and if this is the type of effort and desire we're getting for 125 Million and fans are okay with just stats then something is seriously wrong.   This is why we shouldn't be cheering for anything less than Championships , fu@k an 8th seed. 

Now as I said this team needs a kick in the ass, I mean a big kick in the ass so that they have the attention of the fans, and coaches as to what the expectation are.  They need to learn what it means to be winners, they to talk like winners, walk like winners, and act like winners they need to take their profession more seriously.  I remember how P-Boy use to call Billups Mr. Big Shot EGO or something like that but CB never enter games thinking they would lose, it was never over until it was over.  

Screw Reggie and his injuries because we saw players go entire seasons with far worse injuries than his and put it all on the line.  Fans need to stop the excuse, and raise the bar back to where it should be, we need to stop applauding stats and start applauding victories only.   AD, RJ and BG jobs are to step up every night, pick up all the slack period.  When Rip wasn't Rip CB stepped up, When Bill wasn't Bill Zeke stepped up and so on so, if Ben was off defensively Sheed stepped up,  if Bill wasn't rebounding well Rodman stepped up when Zeke was off Joe was on.   When shouldn't be making excuses for players making the money these 3 are making so I'm tired of hearing about them not having help especially when they don't put it on the line every night like they should.  

You know what AD stats got us last season?  39 wins so it means nothing.   Well I blamed SVG for it but don't get me wrong players get the blame as well because good players win games despite of bad coaching too.  IMO if AD wasn't a pussy more times than not those 50 wins many of you predicted would have still be possible.   This is why I'm saying this group as is if motivated and dedicated and properly coached could be in the finals this year and next year.  It wasn't the talent that got us 3 titles in the past it was the will and heart of those teams, we didn't have the most talent than a lot of teams we had stronger WILLS.

STOP PRAISING THEM FOR FAILING
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As Isiah Thomas might measure up to Tom Gores standards, here is a reason to hire the first female head coach some of these slackers

Post  cool breeze on Mon May 21, 2018 2:48 pm

I imagine some Piston fans who love to rattle off Andre Drummond stats seeking comfort from reality and block out the fact that this Piston team's highest paid players suck would disagree that this team needs a more active involved defensive minded big man. But to me it is a no brainer that Draymond Green would transform the Pistons and really help the Pistons get the best out of Blake Griffin next season. Instead the owner will insist on handing the power or leadership role to AD and RJ to give them one more shot at eliminating their slacking tendencies. It is too bad that those to team leaders could not spend a week working out with the Navy Seals. Can you imagine the crying that would go on if Tom Gores could not buy the Navy Seals for that week? Well we will not get Draymond Green on our team. He is the guy who bitches out teammates who are caught slacking on defense. Coaches have difficulty on the NBA level to stop lazy slackers when they have those guaranteed contracts. Remember the players only meeting where AD had a fit afterwords and whined to the press? That was all about slacking where teammates of AD and Rj voiced their disappointment with the energy both were giving to the team. After that meeting because AD has a guaranteed contract, he decided to take the rest of the season off and the coach could not do much more than say "Andre Drummond needs to be more engaged". That of course had no impact at all. Then AD made the classic statement after the end of the season advising that all his team needed was "rest". What is amazing is that some fans still couldn't get enough of AD and RJ. They want more. Tom Gores loves those fans. He will hatch up more creative stats to prove how valuable both players are to the team that nobody wants to play basketball with.

So I have come to the conclusion that the only way AD and RJ will give an honest effort on defense would be for a female head coach to call them out. How would they react? Would AD still call Tom Gores on his hot line to whine about criticism she dared to say in front of AD's teammates? If the new female head coach embarrassed the hell out of AD and RJ, she might just have a positive influence on both players that no male coach could ever accomplish. After all both AD and RJ have had many male coaches try everything possible to get them to be more "engaged". I do think that RJ has cardio issues and his legs are very old for his age so maybe a female head coach would have the most success chewing out AD for his transgressions when he goes into the slacking mode. Just a thought but why not try it? The female candidate is really smart and knows basketball as well as anyone. For sure they would not allow RJ to dominate the basketball.

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Important Stuff: Beauty is found in a few words...

Post  Oracle on Mon May 21, 2018 5:33 am

Lemon wrote:With an absence of transformational talent we need bright coaching. Players find discipline and IQ when they believe in the leadership. We need to get good from the top.
WOW!!!

I've used a ton of words to try and say what Lemonpen managed in three simple sentences!

I've tried and failed to deliver this simple message... get a good coach then BBall IQ and discipline will surely follow. It doesn't mean you can't fault players, it simply means that the problem is a much larger one, and focusing on players intelligence of failure to execute plays is a waste of time when the problem is the system.

Great Job Lemon!
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Major Stuff...

Post  Oracle on Mon May 21, 2018 5:25 am

DX wrote:You're too open minded to believe that there is "only one way to proceed..." Hitting a home run clearly won't work but, bunts and singles will put us in a much better position to compete.
DX, you're right, I don't believe there is ONLY one way, and in my defense, I did write, "There is really only one way to proceed that I see that would lead to maximum benefit.", which by default is an admission that there are other ways, but I'm expressing my opinion.

However, we do appear to agree on the larger issues. I don't want to say that anyone is wrong, great arguments can be made for almost all of the options, even a full rebuild, but IMO, that's not the best course of action given the facts on the ground.
Murph wrote:I (along with Oracle and Wise) are opting for a 3rd, much more cautious option, which is to basically keep the team in tact, while adding a better starting PG to improve the PG position on the margins, and while hopefully hiring an outstanding coach, who can coach our current team up...not down, the way SVG did.

IMO, it is impossible to know what we have, because Van Gundy was such a bad coach. As Oracle points out, it's completely possible, maybe probable, that Drummond might play even better given the right coach. And with a healthy Griffin, a healthy Jackson, and hopefully another veteran starting PG (not Ish), we could make it to the 2nd round.
Exactly Murph, it's the option with the highest upside! SVG has everyone on the team screwed up, and don't think for one minute that him being both coach and GM doesn't intimidate most of the players. Who can they go to to complain about the coach? Either tow the line(the 3 point line) or you're out of here.

I can almost guarantee that Drummond, Blake and even Reggie will be better players with a more solid playbook. As a matter of face, I believe like Wise that if properly coached, this could be a ECF contender. There is no reason on earth that teams can defend Reggie, Blake and Drummond very successfully. Reggie and Blake can create their own shot and create shots for others, mostly Drummond... these guys should be a nightmare.
Wise wrote:We need to be looking at how to turn this turd into a Championship team now and I'm so of the belief that upgrading the PG, a competent coaching staff, and a proven SF  could put us in the finals next season oppose to battling for low seeding in the playoffs.
I believe that this is how to proceed as well, but it takes a man with vision and determination, a much better coach! 

Ballin said well,
Ballin wrote:I'm not opposed to a trade, but I don't buy the notion that we are one trade away from anything significant sans a really good coach who is actually a tactics-matter type of coach, e.g.; a tactition. SVG was not a tactition. Larry Brown was. Brad Stevens is a tactition, while Dwayne Casey is more of a SVG-Thibodeau style coach, pushing hard, focusing on big picture, riding vets and eschewing analytics and maybe letting player development find its own level as a secondary or even tertiary consideration.
We do need a tactician as a coach, but beyond that, Larry Brown has a strong will! There's no way anybody wanted to come off the court making stupid mistakes or not following the plays, and LB's PG enforced his will on the court.

I confess that I dogged Flip Saunders quite a bit, following LB is a tough task, but in his prime, he was 10 times the coach SVG is, and 20 times when the game is on the line!
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Keep AD and BG for more than a few games...dump RJ and JL now!

Post  deusXango on Mon May 21, 2018 4:14 am

[quote="Sparma"]There's a lot to chew on in your post, WTF.  A few responses.

You write: "Sparma you spent the season calling AD a future HOF'er , the best center in franchise history so shouldn't he be leading us to championships and not rebuild scenarios."

I probably haven't been as clear as I could be about Drummond.   I will correct you on one point that I have been clear about: Bob Lanier is the franchise's best center.   There's a partial response to another point you make there: Bob didn't lead us to any championship, or come close, even though he played with another all time franchise player in Bing.  It's about a whole system.  Ben Wallace, in decline, but still close to his peak, didn't make much difference in Chicago, let alone Cleveland; nor did Detroit fall apart with Nazr Mohammed (!) stepped in for him.  Still, I acknowledge that there's something to what you say: if I think Drummond's so good, shouldn't I think he'll have a bigger impact on the team?

Things get a bit fuzzy but I hope I'm clear on a couple of points: 1) I think that some posters, Don likely being the foremost example, seriously underrate Drummond, and 2) much as I love guys like Laimbeer and Wallace, I think there's a halo effect to them being on championship teams that leads them to being underrated.   As I remember, my contention ended up being that AD belongs in the conversation as being well on his way to being a candidate for the franchise's 2nd greatest center (or being well on his way).  He should be in that conversation, championship halo for Bill and Ben notwithstanding.  I understand that you think even that claim's outrageous.   

That said I also think there are serious flaws in AD's game, particularly in his positional defense.

As to the HoF, I'm mainly making a descriptive claim: IF AD continues to be one of the top rebounders ever (and, yes, I know that the likes of Jerry Lucas used to rack up bigger numbers with 15-20 more opportunities per game and weaker rivals), makes it to 5-6 All Star games, and his team has decent success, then I think there's a good chance he'll make it to the HoF. That's worth noting, with all the put downs (legit and not) of AD floating around.  Not all HoFers have a transformative effect on their teams; Pistol Pete's in as an NBAer, as I remember, as well as a college player.  Didn't he help Boston contend as a bench guy; the teams he starred on were mediocre though.

There's another kind of comparison where we seem to disagree.  AD would destroy Laimbeer if he could be teleported from his peak to today.  That doesn't mean I necessarily put AD on a higher plane, because Bill was great within his context.  I suppose that all US Olympic sprinters today crush Jesse Owens' times, but he remains one of the greatest Olympians ever while they're nowhere near that accomplishment.  But it bugs me when the extraordinary, even franchise unprecedented, athletic feats of AD aren't acknowledged.  Maybe that's led me to go too far in praising him.

Anyway, as mentioned, my comment about AD and trading concerns fit and value.  You keep being nonchalant about trading Griffin even though his max contract's far worse than AD's max contract and he's got big injury concerns.  It's just more realistic to try to reset by trading AD than trading Griffin.

You bring up an interesting point: "What else should our standards be as fans but to have an expectation of championships."  I torn on that one; I do hope for a championship which is why I keep going back to the complete rebuild idea (and Detroit's never ever tanked in the manner of Philly; there's much more involved than being bad for a stretch).  Still, with 30 NBA teams, 32 NFL teams, and, what, 32 MLB teams it may be setting yourself up for misery only to be satisfied with championship teams.  That 2004-'05 team was a heck of a team, fun to root for, as was the 2005-06 team.  Maybe when there were 11 NBA teams, 6 NHL teams, 8 teams per league in MLB, championship or bust was a fair expectation.   Let's say I'm trying to excel in my profession; should I be miserable unless I can be the best?  In European soccer, there are teams that never ever win a championship; yet fans continue to root, let's say for Cardiff City, hoping they can be as good as they can be.  That would seem to be a reasonable expectation, say if you're a fan of Central Michigan football.  Maybe that doesn't apply to American professional sports.  I think there's a lot of satisfaction to be experienced as fan, well shy of championships.

That said, it's really a struggle to be enthused about the Pistons now, and I'm thinking for years to come.
[quote]

Great post Sparma! I've always admired your expressed faith in Drummond as it's been a healthy counterpoint to Don's negative posts about Drummond as a Pistons center. Perhaps his more lengthy and relentless posts, calling for replacing Drummond have closed the minds of some and altered their perceptions of how fortunate we are to watch this young man develop and represent Detroit in our climb back to championship level. Hurray!

I'm surprised that you didn't mention that Griffin is the very first star level PF Drummond has been paired with in his career in Detroit, one that he could learn from, possess mad skills, and potentially be a great fitting duo. I remember the likes of Ilyasova, Maxiell, Tolliver, and his very first mentor and sidekick, Greg Monroe. A lazier player I've yet to see and his value has been dwindling since leaving Detroit. Harris has been the best PF until now, albeit he's young, flawed, and developing himself. Speaking of young and developing, Drummond is working on his game every off-season and is currently only 24! At this rate what'll he be like by the time he's 27-28? To trade him now is truly "throwing out the baby with the bath water." He came into the league with no college coaching (just enough to qualify for "one and done") just high school assessments, and since he's been in the league there's been no one to develop him. Some will argue that SVG, with all his coaching credentials, was the man in Drummonds life but, I argue, who else has he developed? He's broken more than he's made.

The fire will be ignited and the mental toughness will come, along with an unstoppable desire to be the best, wouldn't it be another sad waste to draft a "kid," watch him begin to establish himself only trade him to become a hero in another uniform? Disconnect him from Reggie Jackson, place him in a stable growing environment (Kennard, Ellenson, Bullock, Johnson, Moreland) and pair him with Griffin for a couple of seasons under the steady hand of a real coach. We should stop being jealous of the millions spent/misspent on the talent we have and root for a positive return on the investment made to please fans. I cast my vote to re-tool, not re-build; we've got more to work with than our past record would indicate.








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AD et al

Post  Sparma on Sun May 20, 2018 9:59 pm

There's a lot to chew on in your post, WTF. A few responses.

You write: "Sparma you spent the season calling AD a future HOF'er , the best center in franchise history so shouldn't he be leading us to championships and not rebuild scenarios."

I probably haven't been as clear as I could be about Drummond. I will correct you on one point that I have been clear about: Bob Lanier is the franchise's best center. There's a partial response to another point you make there: Bob didn't lead us to any championship, or come close, even though he played with another all time franchise player in Bing. It's about a whole system. Ben Wallace, in decline, but still close to his peak, didn't make much difference in Chicago, let alone Cleveland; nor did Detroit fall apart with Nazr Mohammed (!) stepped in for him. Still, I acknowledge that there's something to what you say: if I think Drummond's so good, shouldn't I think he'll have a bigger impact on the team?

Things get a bit fuzzy but I hope I'm clear on a couple of points: 1) I think that some posters, Don likely being the foremost example, seriously underrate Drummond, and 2) much as I love guys like Laimbeer and Wallace, I think there's a halo effect to them being on championship teams that leads them to being underrated. As I remember, my contention ended up being that AD belongs in the conversation as being well on his way to being a candidate for the franchise's 2nd greatest center (or being well on his way). He should be in that conversation, championship halo for Bill and Ben notwithstanding. I understand that you think even that claim's outrageous.  

That said I also think there are serious flaws in AD's game, particularly in his positional defense.

As to the HoF, I'm mainly making a descriptive claim: IF AD continues to be one of the top rebounders ever (and, yes, I know that the likes of Jerry Lucas used to rack up bigger numbers with 15-20 more opportunities per game and weaker rivals), makes it to 5-6 All Star games, and his team has decent success, then I think there's a good chance he'll make it to the HoF. That's worth noting, with all the put downs (legit and not) of AD floating around. Not all HoFers have a transformative effect on their teams; Pistol Pete's in as an NBAer, as I remember, as well as a college player. Didn't he help Boston contend as a bench guy; the teams he starred on were mediocre though.

There's another kind of comparison where we seem to disagree. AD would destroy Laimbeer if he could be teleported from his peak to today. That doesn't mean I necessarily put AD on a higher plane, because Bill was great within his context. I suppose that all US Olympic sprinters today crush Jesse Owens' times, but he remains one of the greatest Olympians ever while they're nowhere near that accomplishment. But it bugs me when the extraordinary, even franchise unprecedented, athletic feats of AD aren't acknowledged. Maybe that's led me to go too far in praising him.

Anyway, as mentioned, my comment about AD and trading concerns fit and value. You keep being nonchalant about trading Griffin even though his max contract's far worse than AD's max contract and he's got big injury concerns. It's just more realistic to try to reset by trading AD than trading Griffin.

You bring up an interesting point: "What else should our standards be as fans but to have an expectation of championships." I torn on that one; I do hope for a championship which is why I keep going back to the complete rebuild idea (and Detroit's never ever tanked in the manner of Philly; there's much more involved than being bad for a stretch). Still, with 30 NBA teams, 32 NFL teams, and, what, 32 MLB teams it may be setting yourself up for misery only to be satisfied with championship teams. That 2004-'05 team was a heck of a team, fun to root for, as was the 2005-06 team. Maybe when there were 11 NBA teams, 6 NHL teams, 8 teams per league in MLB, championship or bust was a fair expectation. Let's say I'm trying to excel in my profession; should I be miserable unless I can be the best? In European soccer, there are teams that never ever win a championship; yet fans continue to root, let's say for Cardiff City, hoping they can be as good as they can be. That would seem to be a reasonable expectation, say if you're a fan of Central Michigan football. Maybe that doesn't apply to American professional sports. I think there's a lot of satisfaction to be experienced as fan, well shy of championships.

That said, it's really a struggle to be enthused about the Pistons now, and I'm thinking for years to come.





WTF wrote:
Sparma wrote:I'm thinking that your standard of championship or drought makes you a huge idealist rather than a Cynic.

What else should our standards be as fans but to have an expectation of championships.  Most spend a lot of time wishing and hoping playing the wait and see game on the development of players.  Every year fingers are cross hoping some player magically turns a corner and become simply of Championship Mind and compete that way.

There are no assurances that a rebuild plays out well or any better than a simple retooling.  How many lottery picks have we had in the past 10 seasons? We are not really that far off from attempting what Philly has done in tanking season after season.  Seriously how many top 10 picks have we squander since 09 so I'm not so convinced trading away everyone and rebuilding will work.

Sparma you spent the season calling AD a future HOF'er , the best center in franchise history so shouldn't he be leading us to championships and not rebuild scenarios.  The problem is we forget how our Championship teams were built, not on talent but determination and a will to win.  Only for that reason would I dump this entire roster.  We don't need a rebuild this team needs a kick in the ass and a wake up call starting with AD.  

I spent the past 2 seasons talking about NEXT LEVEL while most would gladly cheer a 8th seed.  I have no interest in not being on top or continuous playing of the wait and see game.  I say kick this team in the ass real hard this season and if it doesn't work then dump the roster.  Rebuilding and waiting another 5 years just to get back to where we are now hoping the team win 50 games is crazy.  We need to be looking at how to turn this turd into a Championship team now and I'm so of the belief that upgrading the PG, a competent coaching staff, and a proven SF  could put us in the finals next season oppose to battling for low seeding in the playoffs.

Seem we are under some false impression that this league is as tough as the 80's and 90's and it's not, their no reason our team shouldn't be dominating  this league if they played tougher and smarter.  If our issue was talent then I say rebuild  as well but it's more mental than anything else.
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I'm Still A Cynic

Post  WTF on Sun May 20, 2018 7:39 pm

Sparma wrote:I'm thinking that your standard of championship or drought makes you a huge idealist rather than a Cynic.

What else should our standards be as fans but to have an expectation of championships.  Most spend a lot of time wishing and hoping playing the wait and see game on the development of players.  Every year fingers are cross hoping some player magically turns a corner and become simply of Championship Mind and compete that way.

There are no assurances that a rebuild plays out well or any better than a simple retooling.  How many lottery picks have we had in the past 10 seasons? We are not really that far off from attempting what Philly has done in tanking season after season.  Seriously how many top 10 picks have we squander since 09 so I'm not so convinced trading away everyone and rebuilding will work.

Sparma you spent the season calling AD a future HOF'er , the best center in franchise history so shouldn't he be leading us to championships and not rebuild scenarios.  The problem is we forget how our Championship teams were built, not on talent but determination and a will to win.  Only for that reason would I dump this entire roster.  We don't need a rebuild this team needs a kick in the ass and a wake up call starting with AD.  

I spent the past 2 seasons talking about NEXT LEVEL while most would gladly cheer a 8th seed.  I have no interest in not being on top or continuous playing of the wait and see game.  I say kick this team in the ass real hard this season and if it doesn't work then dump the roster.  Rebuilding and waiting another 5 years just to get back to where we are now hoping the team win 50 games is crazy.  We need to be looking at how to turn this turd into a Championship team now and I'm so of the belief that upgrading the PG, a competent coaching staff, and a proven SF  could put us in the finals next season oppose to battling for low seeding in the playoffs.

Seem we are under some false impression that this league is as tough as the 80's and 90's and it's not, their no reason our team shouldn't be dominating  this league if they played tougher and smarter.  If our issue was talent then I say rebuild  as well but it's more mental than anything else.
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Wait, what?

Post  Sparma on Sun May 20, 2018 3:10 pm

WTF: "14 Years Drought People and You Want To Rebuild?"

Fourteen years ago (2004-'05) the Pistons went to the NBA finals, arguably coming within a play of another 'ship. The next year they had the NBA's best record and went to the conference finals, losing to the eventual champion. Then two more conference finals.

Are you serious? If you are and a "drought" means anything shy of a championship then I'd recommend hoping for a complete rebuild, because the alternatives are unlikely to come anywhere close to a championship. People do speak of a "championship drought" so maybe that's all you mean.

I'm drawn to tinkering because it could result in a 50 win season and a decent showing in the playoffs. My proposed alternative of doubling down on Blake -- including the idea of trading AD & Reggie J for Wall and Gortat -- could max out about there too, if it could be pulled off at all.

I'm thinking that your standard of championship or drought makes you a huge idealist rather than a Cynic.
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14 Years Drought People and You Want To Rebuild?

Post  WTF on Sun May 20, 2018 11:06 am

I some of you are being overly ho-hum about our present situation.  It's really not that bad and truly requires just a competent coach and PG and this team could be on track.  I think like serious contention track.....

I don't see the doom in keeping BG,  I'm not overly concerned about AD other than he needs be far more consistent he's still 2 years behind where he needs to be.   I still believe in Ellensen and I think Kennard is special and he's going to explode under the right coach.  The key is the PG I'm telling you all that's all we need.  Give this same group to CB in his prime and he'll take them to finals.   

This team doesn't need to be torn apart not completely but I do think that RJ and SJ should be replaced and I don't think that's as hard as it seems.  RJ can be replaced by any pass first PG and SJ can be replace by just about any SF in the league.  This isn't hard....

The only things that need to be gone are RJ JL IS and SJ period.
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Phoenix?

Post  Sparma on Sat May 19, 2018 11:05 pm

BD writes: "Moving forward, can we possibly hoodwink PHX to trade the no. 1 pick for Griffin and RJ, since they have announced they are shopping it."

Phoenix may, just may, be a realistic landing spot for Blake. Can't see them giving up #1 for Blake (or wanting Reggie J at all), but maybe their #16, or more realistically #31, which I'd be happy to have. Evidently, they've got plenty of bad contracts to deal, including Brandon Knight's. As long as it just put us in a bad spot for a year, I'd be happy to go that way.

I think Gores will want to see the present mix in action for a year though, before doing anything drastic. And it might be tempting for the new regime, whenever they're coming, to take a wait and see attitude, confining themselves to minor deals for a year.

I enjoy how Griffin plays (except when his trainer 3s clank off the rim too often), so maybe I'm paranoid about his contract being a poison pill for us (although I'm pretty sure potential trading partners would approach it that way, driving his trade value down). Langlois clearly sees worries like mine as being overwrought, or at least so he proclaims.
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