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Ballin, happy to drop this and move on...

Post  Oracle on Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:54 pm

But remember, I didn't start this! I'm not the one insulting people by calling them names, YOU did.

This started when you insulted everyone that doesn't tow your line.
Ballin wrote:Relating to Casey, I think it is fair to present information relevant to an issue of fit and skills.  People will call it hate if it is not positive or even negative, which is an easy and even lazy reaction -- not analysis -- when it is applied indiscriminately.  There is nothing wrong with looking at a track record and projecting forward.  It doesn't mean the past determines the future, but it helps to pose questions that otherwise may not appear.
I didn't think you were directing that at me, but then again, I don't like to wait until injustice strikes me before I speak out.

Whoever that was directed at, you're not only saying they can't analyze worth a damn, they taking the easy way out and are LAZY... all because you decided that their MOTIVE is evil.

Before that, no names were called, the conversation was civil, so why did you go there? I'll probably never know, maybe you didn't intend to offend, I'm not sure, but as I posted, it was a nasty remark.

Moving on....

-------

http://detroitsportstalk.forumotion.com/viewtopic.forum?t=174
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Yes, And

Post  BallinD on Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:57 pm

Agreed. And please Get Chauncey in here to learn front office shtuff, but that's on Stefanski and Gores.

WTF wrote:If Casey wants to get on my good side he'll hire both Ben and Sheed as assistants
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Re: FORUM

Post  WTF on Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:43 pm

If Casey wants to get on my good side he'll hire both Ben and Sheed as assistants
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Stan Van Ginobli

Post  BallinD on Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:31 pm

Dang Sparma; it soooooo sucks that we gave away our lottery pick. Don't we need a point guard bounce

Sparma wrote:Good stuff!  I hate to think of the many hours of practice that got him to that level of proficiency.

BallinD wrote:The Point Guard who got away...How could we let all this talent languish on the bench?! lol!  Basketball


Sparma wrote:I hope that you don't intend a comprehensive or permanent "Bye", BallinD.  You've been a fantastic contributor!

BallinD wrote:Bruh Bye.  No hard feelings.  You "Do You."  Go argue with yourself and parse your little snippets.  Twist my words and twist in the wind.  

Show your maturity with lame personal insults.  Not a good look for a discussion forum.  You just can't stop; can you.  This aint Jr. High dawg. More words count less.
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SVG

Post  Sparma on Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:16 pm

Good stuff! I hate to think of the many hours of practice that got him to that level of proficiency.

BallinD wrote:The Point Guard who got away...How could we let all this talent languish on the bench?! lol!  Basketball


Sparma wrote:I hope that you don't intend a comprehensive or permanent "Bye", BallinD.  You've been a fantastic contributor!

BallinD wrote:Bruh Bye.  No hard feelings.  You "Do You."  Go argue with yourself and parse your little snippets.  Twist my words and twist in the wind.  

Show your maturity with lame personal insults.  Not a good look for a discussion forum.  You just can't stop; can you.  This aint Jr. High dawg. More words count less.
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On a Lighter Note

Post  BallinD on Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:43 pm

The Point Guard who got away...How could we let all this talent languish on the bench?! lol!  Basketball


Sparma wrote:I hope that you don't intend a comprehensive or permanent "Bye", BallinD.  You've been a fantastic contributor!

BallinD wrote:Bruh Bye.  No hard feelings.  You "Do You."  Go argue with yourself and parse your little snippets.  Twist my words and twist in the wind.  

Show your maturity with lame personal insults.  Not a good look for a discussion forum.  You just can't stop; can you.  This aint Jr. High dawg. More words count less.
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BallinD

Post  Sparma on Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:48 pm

I hope that you don't intend a comprehensive or permanent "Bye", BallinD. You've been a fantastic contributor!

BallinD wrote:Bruh Bye.  No hard feelings.  You "Do You."  Go argue with yourself and parse your little snippets.  Twist my words and twist in the wind.  

Show your maturity with lame personal insults.  Not a good look for a discussion forum.  You just can't stop; can you.  This aint Jr. High dawg. More words count less.
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Oracularity

Post  BallinD on Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:45 pm

Bruh Bye. No hard feelings. You "Do You." Go argue with yourself and parse your little snippets. Twist my words and twist in the wind.

Show your maturity with lame personal insults. Not a good look for a discussion forum. You just can't stop; can you. This aint Jr. High dawg. More words count less.
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Ballin...

Post  Oracle on Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:12 am

Snippet 1 wrote:There is nothing wrong with looking at a track record and projecting forward.  It doesn't mean the past determines the future, but it helps to pose questions that otherwise may not appearYeah, we all agree, so what's your point? Well, the point is that the "rah rah, get behind the new hire, don't criticize him because he hasn't even coached the team yet, wait-and-see tone of discourse kinda goes against thatI haven't seen the rah rah. Somehow when you see someone giving another side to the story, it's not something you recognize as valid? If you did, why are you characterizing it as a negative. Can't there be more than a few sides, or is yours the only legitimate way to feel? Since you commented on my post, obviously you read where I did offer balance about his player relations skills, toughness and ability to probably coach us to the playoffs, which fairness you yourself acknowledged, so obviously there is balance there to consider more than one side.  Stop making stuff up.
Are you seriously unable to stick to the original concepts? What you said that I bold and underlined above, that's the looney response you made to me saying we all agree with your point? You're whining like a little biotch that anyone could express an opinion different from yours, then MAKING UP(my how the kettle is calling the pot) crap about them that they don't want you to criticize him... you're straight up lying, nobody said you shouldn't criticize, which is why you continue to make sh!t up.
Snippet 2 wrote:That's totally missing the point, nothing you said has any validity or applicability to the point, and sounds like dodging the issue and facts of your behavior. it's NOT about any of those guys accomplishments, (BTW, they are there for context for my points)and again, you show how biased you are, (I think you said I was fair, make up your mind) because it's about Casey's accomplishments at a level none of them qualified for.   You can bring up people that had no accomplishments at the NBA level, Really? Championships and Eastern Conference Finals do not compare favorably to making it to the ECF?  DelusionalMuch?but find all kinds of issues about someone that's EXCELLED at the NBA level. How about addressing the issue, not diverting to another subject? Not questioning that he's made it to the ECF, ok? Never did! Again, if you read the posts I said he will probably be able to get us at least to the second round of the playoffs, so stop making stuff up. You're the one who made the misstatement that he "never coached a team in his life," I addressed your error, and those guys accomplishments show that it is not a relevant comment.  Double Fail For You!
Ever heard of Einstein? Obviously not, because EVERYTHING is RELATIVE dufus! Delusional must be one of your middle names because, Yes, ECF are more than Championships... if the other guy has ZIP!!! If you're making comparisons... f**king compare dummy!

No, you aren't questioning if he made the ECF, you're doing what haters do, you're diminishing it... what a loser, probably never won jack sh!t in your whole life... pretended to be another poster lately? BTW, you haven't addressed jack, you're just making lame excuses because you can't admit to being the dick you're acting like.
Snippet 3 wrote:Said the guy that hired him... Gee, I guess you expected him to say Nurse was a clown.  Bruh, who got your tit in a wringer?  You'd think I said Casey is a clown and never did shyte, he was on the level of Michael Curry and was fired because he's so stupid, LOL. Give it a rest!
I prefer innovation and a calculated risk and Gores appears to want a different approach.  We will see.
So you prefer innovation... said the guy with the old tired, no innovation remark... tit in a wringer, LOL! what a joke, I hope I don't have to tell you how ironic that is, but you probably wouldn't understand anyway.

Gores made up his mind that he didn't want any of the people we liked, didn't want any of our old greats, I call that Dumars crazy syndrome, so he was left with a known quantity and some risky candidates because NOBODY out there had anywhere near Casey's resume. Let that sink in... nobody else was even close!!!

Once he was in that situation, innovation wasn't needed, and if Casey isn't the smartest calculated risk, then in a battle of wits, you're defenseless! And yes, that's not innovative, but I'm not the clown that says he want that and drags up some old tired phrase.

Just remember...
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Probably, But It's The Offseason So No Worries!

Post  BallinD on Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:52 am

Oracle wrote:
BallinD wrote:Relating to Casey, I think it is fair to present information relevant to an issue of fit and skills(of course it is, nobody is complaining about anyone doing that).  People will call it hate if it is not positive or even negative, which is an easy and even lazy reaction -- not analysis -- when it is applied indiscriminately(that's just plain nasty. whoever you're directing that at requires some proof, because I haven't see ANYONE say or do anything that would justify that remark)There is nothing wrong with looking at a track record and projecting forward.  It doesn't mean the past determines the future, but it helps to pose questions that otherwise may not appear. Yeah, we all agree, so what's your point? Well, the point is that the "rah rah, get behind the new hire, don't criticize him because he hasn't even coached the team yet, wait-and-see tone of discourse kinda goes against that. I haven't seen the rah rah. Somehow when you see someone giving another side to the story, it's not something you recognize as valid? If you did, why are you characterizing it as a negative. Can't there be more than a few sides, or is yours the only legitimate way to feel? Since you commented on my post, obviously you read where I did offer balance about his player relations skills, toughness and ability to probably coach us to the playoffs, which fairness you yourself acknowledged, so obviously there is balance there to consider more than one side.  Stop making stuff up.

My concerns are more directed at the process run by Gores and Stefanski and their lack of vision and play-it-safe mentality.  Every writer and analyst says Casey is the "safe choice."  In my mind the safe choice is not by default the best choice, but that is me.  I believe in swinging toward the fences rather than bunting, but that is me.  Many in the media are even saying that it is about race, because Casey is black, which I think is ridiculous.  And given my own background as a son of Detroit and a person of color,  I think winning is green and as long as we move that way, all other things being equal, we should be okay.

I wish Casey the best, and do expect improvement.  I think his player relations and toughness is unquestioned.  He is competitive and well respected. And to his credit he hired Nurse as a kind of offensive coordinator, something I advocated for SVG, but he wasn't man enough to relinquish total control.

However, Nurse hasn't coached a team in his life, so why all of this respect for him and not Casey. Here you are joined by others that have done EXACTLY what
Murph's point is... interesting.
"Uhh, Kerr had never coached, nor Stevens, if you're talking about NBA head coaching, which must be what you're saying, cause being an assistant coach, or G League coach don't count (Stackhouse anyone).  Per ESPN:"A past G League coach of the year, he's the only coach to lead two teams to an NBA G League Championship, winning with Iowa in 2011 and Rio Grande in 2013." That's totally missing the point, nothing you said has any validity or applicability to the point, and sounds like dodging the issue and facts of your behavior. it's NOT about any of those guys accomplishments, (BTW, they are there for context for my points) and again, you show how biased you are, (I think you said I was fair, make up your mind) because it's about Casey's accomplishments at a level none of them qualified for.   You can bring up people that had no accomplishments at the NBA level, Really? Championships and Eastern Conference Finals do not compare favorably to making it to the ECF?  DelusionalMuch?but find all kinds of issues about someone that's EXCELLED at the NBA level. How about addressing the issue, not diverting to another subject? Not questioning that he's made it to the ECF, ok? Never did! Again, if you read the posts I said he will probably be able to get us at least to the second round of the playoffs, so stop making stuff up. You're the one who made the misstatement that he "never coached a team in his life," I addressed your error, and those guys accomplishments show that it is not a relevant comment.  Double Fail For You!

The modern NBA is moving fast around constant switching, threes, motion and multiple ball handlers.  If anybody thinks we are gonna go back to a more simple and even physical era, well good luck with that, an example of 1 in 4 out being an idea whose time has come and gone.  

If you for example promote that then we kinda know if you are being innovative or reactive.  If you hire a win-now coach (SVG) you won't get good player development and you should know that going into the process.  If you hire a defensive minded Iso coach, you should not expect to see offensive creativity, or innovation.  It all depends on do you want more of the same or take some risks is how I see it.   Per ESPN:  Ujiri called Nurse "everything you want in a candidate" and said his new coach, the first he has hired as an NBA executive, is someone who "thinks the game differently."

"He was outstanding," Ujiri said. "He really came out on top. Trying new stuff, being innovative, is who Nick is. You can tell he's a tactician who really thinks the game."
Said the guy that hired him... Gee, I guess you expected him to say Nurse was a clown.  Bruh, who got your tit in a wringer?  You'd think I said Casey is a clown and never did shyte, he was on the level of Michael Curry and was fired because he's so stupid, LOL. Give it a rest!
I prefer innovation and a calculated risk and Gores appears to want a different approach.  We will see.
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Ballin, am I missing something?

Post  Oracle on Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:08 pm

BallinD wrote:Relating to Casey, I think it is fair to present information relevant to an issue of fit and skills(of course it is, nobody is complaining about anyone doing that).  People will call it hate if it is not positive or even negative, which is an easy and even lazy reaction -- not analysis -- when it is applied indiscriminately(that's just plain nasty. whoever you're directing that at requires some proof, because I haven't see ANYONE say or do anything that would justify that remark)There is nothing wrong with looking at a track record and projecting forward.  It doesn't mean the past determines the future, but it helps to pose questions that otherwise may not appear. Yeah, we all agree, so what's your point? Well, the point is that the "rah rah, get behind the new hire, don't criticize him because he hasn't even coached the team yet, wait-and-see tone of discourse kinda goes against that. I haven't seen the rah rah. Somehow when you see someone giving another side to the story, it's not something you recognize as valid? If you did, why are you characterizing it as a negative. Can't there be more than a few sides, or is yours the only legitimate way to feel?

My concerns are more directed at the process run by Gores and Stefanski and their lack of vision and play-it-safe mentality.  Every writer and analyst says Casey is the "safe choice."  In my mind the safe choice is not by default the best choice, but that is me.  I believe in swinging toward the fences rather than bunting, but that is me.  Many in the media are even saying that it is about race, because Casey is black, which I think is ridiculous.  And given my own background as a son of Detroit and a person of color,  I think winning is green and as long as we move that way, all other things being equal, we should be okay.

I wish Casey the best, and do expect improvement.  I think his player relations and toughness is unquestioned.  He is competitive and well respected. And to his credit he hired Nurse as a kind of offensive coordinator, something I advocated for SVG, but he wasn't man enough to relinquish total control. However, Nurse hasn't coached a team in his life, so why all of this respect for him and not Casey. Here you are joined by others that have done EXACTLY what Murph's point is... interesting. "Uhh, Kerr had never coached, nor Stevens, if you're talking about NBA head coaching, which must be what you're saying, cause being an assistant coach, or G League coach don't count (Stackhouse anyone).  Per ESPN:"A past G League coach of the year, he's the only coach to lead two teams to an NBA G League Championship, winning with Iowa in 2011 and Rio Grande in 2013." That's totally missing the point, nothing you said has any validity or applicability to the point, and sounds like dodging the issue and facts of your behavior. it's NOT about any of those guys accomplishments, and again, you show how biased you are, because it's about Casey's accomplishments at a level none of them qualified for. You can bring up people that had no accomplishments at the NBA level, but find all kinds of issues about someone that's EXCELLED at the NBA level. How about addressing the issue, not diverting to another subject?

The modern NBA is moving fast around constant switching, threes, motion and multiple ball handlers.  If anybody thinks we are gonna go back to a more simple and even physical era, well good luck with that, an example of 1 in 4 out being an idea whose time has come and gone.  

If you for example promote that then we kinda know if you are being innovative or reactive.  If you hire a win-now coach (SVG) you won't get good player development and you should know that going into the process.  If you hire a defensive minded Iso coach, you should not expect to see offensive creativity, or innovation.  It all depends on do you want more of the same or take some risks is how I see it.   Per ESPN:  Ujiri called Nurse "everything you want in a candidate" and said his new coach, the first he has hired as an NBA executive, is someone who "thinks the game differently."

"He was outstanding," Ujiri said. "He really came out on top. Trying new stuff, being innovative, is who Nick is. You can tell he's a tactician who really thinks the game."
Said the guy that hired him... Gee, I guess you expected him to say Nurse was a clown.

I prefer innovation and a calculated risk and Gores appears to want a different approach.  We will see.
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Pistons PTSD

Post  BallinD on Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:52 pm

Ouch...You uncovered my disease Oracle.  Have to confess I'm suffering SVG PTSD.  Every time I hear defense minded or defense first coach, I get triggered and tremble with rage at Old Yeller, the one and only Stan Van.  Every time I hear about Iso ball, questionable rotations, stubborn, averse to innovation, being forced to make changes to modernize the offense I get triggered and remember the last four years of the Van Gumby regime.  So yeah,  It Is Nasty!!

Oracle wrote:
BallinD wrote:Relating to Casey, I think it is fair to present information relevant to an issue of fit and skills(of course it is, nobody is complaining about anyone doing that).  People will call it hate if it is not positive or even negative, which is an easy and even lazy reaction -- not analysis -- when it is applied indiscriminately(that's just plain nasty. whoever you're directing that at requires some proof, because I haven't see ANYONE say or do anything that would justify that remark).  There is nothing wrong with looking at a track record and projecting forward.  It doesn't mean the past determines the future, but it helps to pose questions that otherwise may not appear. Yeah, we all agree, so what's your point? Well, the point is that the "rah rah, get behind the new hire, don't criticize him because he hasn't even coached the team yet, wait-and-see tone of discourse kinda goes against that.

My concerns are more directed at the process run by Gores and Stefanski and their lack of vision and play-it-safe mentality.  Every writer and analyst says Casey is the "safe choice."  In my mind the safe choice is not by default the best choice, but that is me.  I believe in swinging toward the fences rather than bunting, but that is me.  Many in the media are even saying that it is about race, because Casey is black, which I think is ridiculous.  And given my own background as a son of Detroit and a person of color,  I think winning is green and as long as we move that way, all other things being equal, we should be okay.

I wish Casey the best, and do expect improvement.  I think his player relations and toughness is unquestioned.  He is competitive and well respected. And to his credit he hired Nurse as a kind of offensive coordinator, something I advocated for SVG, but he wasn't man enough to relinquish total control. However, Nurse hasn't coached a team in his life, so why all of this respect for him and not Casey. Here you are joined by others that have done EXACTLY what Murph's point is... interesting. "Uhh, Kerr had never coached, nor Stevens, if you're talking about NBA head coaching, which must be what you're saying, cause being an assistant coach, or G League coach don't count (Stackhouse anyone).  Per ESPN:"A past G League coach of the year, he's the only coach to lead two teams to an NBA G League Championship, winning with Iowa in 2011 and Rio Grande in 2013."

The modern NBA is moving fast around constant switching, threes, motion and multiple ball handlers.  If anybody thinks we are gonna go back to a more simple and even physical era, well good luck with that, an example of 1 in 4 out being an idea whose time has come and gone.  

If you for example promote that then we kinda know if you are being innovative or reactive.  If you hire a win-now coach (SVG) you won't get good player development and you should know that going into the process.  If you hire a defensive minded Iso coach, you should not expect to see offensive creativity, or innovation.  It all depends on do you want more of the same or take some risks is how I see it.   Per ESPN:  Ujiri called Nurse "everything you want in a candidate" and said his new coach, the first he has hired as an NBA executive, is someone who "thinks the game differently."

"He was outstanding," Ujiri said. "He really came out on top. Trying new stuff, being innovative, is who Nick is. You can tell he's a tactician who really thinks the game."


I prefer innovation and a calculated risk and Gores appears to want a different approach.  We will see.
Ballin, I do believe all in all, you're judging him fairly, but you do have that small streak that's shown up a bit. I wouldn't call it hate, but it's there!
 It's Pistons PTSD
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Gentlemen

Post  WTF on Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:49 pm

Murph wrote:Wise...your memory is faulty.  Under Cheeks, the Pistons started out 14-16, before the bottom fell out starting on Dec 27th, when they started a 6 game losing streak.  The Pistons never recovered, and Cheeks got fired 50 games into the season with a 21-29 record.

I believe I stated late Nov to early Dec in my post so my memory is not faulty at all.  You're changing what I said. 



Oracle wrote:BTW Wise, it's not about who you want, it's about respect, especially when the guy hasn't been given a chance to do anything. 

Other than saying he's not the right coach, or not being the best coach available I don't think I said anything disrespectful.   In fact I think I'm being very middle ground on my beliefs at this point.  I neither proclaim his success or failure, I said he need to prove his worth immediately and I think that's fair to expect and I'm not going to change on that.   

You can't tout a person resume and lower the expectation for success at the same time.  Some of you are already laying the ground work for excuses just in case but offering a time disclaimer.  I also said I'm not playing the wait and see game either but I haven't spouted a single word of venom.  I don't hate Casey but on the other end You, Murph, and Sparma are trying to sell any and every inch of creative positive on the hiring maybe you all need to convince yourselves this was a good hire when you all were for someone else before he got hired.

Keep in mind I'm not predicting failure, I'm expecting nothing less than success and that does not include 40-45 wins and a 8th or 7th seed.  I'm not just waiting for the season start to be impress he needs to be wowing me now as I post.


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Casey

Post  Sparma on Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:43 pm

I think you raise some important issues, BallinD. I don't see your posts as hating. That's not to say I don't think you could put more weight on the positives, positives that I see as strikingly present, along with the red flags that you emphasize. I spoke of wanting the Pistons to swing for the fences, so I'm in agreement there; at the same time, Gores deserves some credit for putting a big money offer on the table to woo the guy he sees as the best available. I think part of the problem with the coaches working with Dumars post-Flip is that we tried to get by on the cheap. (Of course, Gores' serious investment in SVG didn't pay off.)

For me, in agreement with you, one big issue will be the assistants that Casey appoints. Failing to really get added value from his assistants was one of SVG's failings. Like you, I'd heard of the importance of Nurse as offensive strategist to Casey, along with Casey's purported resistance to the offensive innovation in Toronto of the past couple of years. It doesn't follow that Nurse, as hugely successful assistant coach, will be a better head coach than Casey. Maybe he will be, maybe he won't be. Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry, and George Allen were among the great assistant coaches who were also outstanding as head coaches. Here too, I'd like to have swung for the fences. But Marty Mornhinweg, Rod Marinelli, and Jim Schwartz illustrate that plenty of outstanding assistants flop in the head coach position. The comparison between Casey and Nurse as head coaches will be a fun one to keep an eye on, with Toronto likely being ok with a decline in season wins as long as playoff success goes up. Good luck with that, with Boston and Philadelphia looking as if they could soon be real powerhouses in the East.

Drummond said some nice things about SVG when he left, but also had a snarky remark about knowing now he was staying. Not sure what was going on there. But I take his super enthusiastic welcoming of Casey as a good sign. With the possible exception of the first 20 games of the season, I never got the sense with Stan that the players were playing harder than expected, or committed to the coach's vision (well, I guess with the importance exception of AD & Reggie with the pick 'n roll). Only at the beginning of the season did I have the sense that the buy in was high with SVG. If that's different with Casey, in part because he's better at bonding with players than Stan, that could be really big. Not championship big, but a welcome change.

BallinD wrote:Relating to Casey, I think it is fair to present information relevant to an issue of fit and skills.  People will call it hate if it is not positive or even negative, which is an easy and even lazy reaction -- not analysis -- when it is applied indiscriminately.  There is nothing wrong with looking at a track record and projecting forward.  It doesn't mean the past determines the future, but it helps to pose questions that otherwise may not appear.

My concerns are more directed at the process run by Gores and Stefanski and their lack of vision and play-it-safe mentality.  Every writer and analyst says Casey is the "safe choice."  In my mind the safe choice is not by default the best choice, but that is me.  I believe in swinging toward the fences rather than bunting, but that is me.  Many in the media are even saying that it is about race, because Casey is black, which I think is ridiculous.  And given my own background as a son of Detroit and a person of color,  I think winning is green and as long as we move that way, all other things being equal, we should be okay.

I wish Casey the best, and do expect improvement.  I think his player relations and toughness is unquestioned.  He is competitive and well respected. And to his credit he hired Nurse as a kind of offensive coordinator, something I advocated for SVG, but he wasn't man enough to relinquish total control.

The modern NBA is moving fast around constant switching, threes, motion and multiple ball handlers.  If anybody thinks we are gonna go back to a more simple and even physical era, well good luck with that, an example of 1 in 4 out being an idea whose time has come and gone.  

If you for example promote that then we kinda know if you are being innovative or reactive.  If you hire a win-now coach (SVG) you won't get good player development and you should know that going into the process.  If you hire a defensive minded Iso coach, you should not expect to see offensive creativity, or innovation.  It all depends on do you want more of the same or take some risks is how I see it.  

I prefer innovation and a calculated risk and Gores appears to want a different approach.  We will see.
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In other SVG news, LOL

Post  Oracle on Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:43 pm

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Interesting: Top Shooting Guards available in Free Agency

Post  Oracle on Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:32 pm

Bleacher Report: Top Available Shooting Guards

#1 Tyreke Evans


#2 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope


#3 JJ Redick


…………………..

#7 Avery Bradley
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Missing the point and laying down a nasty point...

Post  Oracle on Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:15 pm

BallinD wrote:Relating to Casey, I think it is fair to present information relevant to an issue of fit and skills(of course it is, nobody is complaining about anyone doing that).  People will call it hate if it is not positive or even negative, which is an easy and even lazy reaction -- not analysis -- when it is applied indiscriminately(that's just plain nasty. whoever you're directing that at requires some proof, because I haven't see ANYONE say or do anything that would justify that remark).  There is nothing wrong with looking at a track record and projecting forward.  It doesn't mean the past determines the future, but it helps to pose questions that otherwise may not appear. Yeah, we all agree, so what's your point?

My concerns are more directed at the process run by Gores and Stefanski and their lack of vision and play-it-safe mentality.  Every writer and analyst says Casey is the "safe choice."  In my mind the safe choice is not by default the best choice, but that is me.  I believe in swinging toward the fences rather than bunting, but that is me.  Many in the media are even saying that it is about race, because Casey is black, which I think is ridiculous.  And given my own background as a son of Detroit and a person of color,  I think winning is green and as long as we move that way, all other things being equal, we should be okay.

I wish Casey the best, and do expect improvement.  I think his player relations and toughness is unquestioned.  He is competitive and well respected. And to his credit he hired Nurse as a kind of offensive coordinator, something I advocated for SVG, but he wasn't man enough to relinquish total control. However, Nurse hasn't coached a team in his life, so why all of this respect for him and not Casey. Here you are joined by others that have done EXACTLY what Murph's point is... interesting.

The modern NBA is moving fast around constant switching, threes, motion and multiple ball handlers.  If anybody thinks we are gonna go back to a more simple and even physical era, well good luck with that, an example of 1 in 4 out being an idea whose time has come and gone.  

If you for example promote that then we kinda know if you are being innovative or reactive.  If you hire a win-now coach (SVG) you won't get good player development and you should know that going into the process.  If you hire a defensive minded Iso coach, you should not expect to see offensive creativity, or innovation.  It all depends on do you want more of the same or take some risks is how I see it.  

I prefer innovation and a calculated risk and Gores appears to want a different approach.  We will see.
Ballin, I do believe all in all, you're judging him fairly, but you do have that small streak that's shown up a bit. I wouldn't call it hate, but it's there!
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The Point

Post  BallinD on Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:52 pm

Relating to Casey, I think it is fair to present information relevant to an issue of fit and skills.  People will call it hate if it is not positive or even negative, which is an easy and even lazy reaction -- not analysis -- when it is applied indiscriminately.  There is nothing wrong with looking at a track record and projecting forward.  It doesn't mean the past determines the future, but it helps to pose questions that otherwise may not appear.

My concerns are more directed at the process run by Gores and Stefanski and their lack of vision and play-it-safe mentality.  Every writer and analyst says Casey is the "safe choice."  In my mind the safe choice is not by default the best choice, but that is me.  I believe in swinging toward the fences rather than bunting, but that is me.  Many in the media are even saying that it is about race, because Casey is black, which I think is ridiculous.  And given my own background as a son of Detroit and a person of color,  I think winning is green and as long as we move that way, all other things being equal, we should be okay.

I wish Casey the best, and do expect improvement.  I think his player relations and toughness is unquestioned.  He is competitive and well respected. And to his credit he hired Nurse as a kind of offensive coordinator, something I advocated for SVG, but he wasn't man enough to relinquish total control.

The modern NBA is moving fast around constant switching, threes, motion and multiple ball handlers.  If anybody thinks we are gonna go back to a more simple and even physical era, well good luck with that, an example of 1 in 4 out being an idea whose time has come and gone.  

If you for example promote that then we kinda know if you are being innovative or reactive.  If you hire a win-now coach (SVG) you won't get good player development and you should know that going into the process.  If you hire a defensive minded Iso coach, you should not expect to see offensive creativity, or innovation.  It all depends on do you want more of the same or take some risks is how I see it.  

I prefer innovation and a calculated risk and Gores appears to want a different approach.  We will see.
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Knight

Post  Murph on Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:22 pm

Don...Brandon Knight was/is horrible.  He didn't even play for one of the worst teams in the league last season.  He was a blown pick.

Do you realize Joe could have taken Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, Kawhi Leonard, Tobias Harris, Kemba Walker, Kenneth Faried, Reggie Jackson Nikola Vucevic or Nikola Mirotic instead of Knight???

Brandon Knight has a really low basketball IQ, and terrible handles. His assist to turnover ratio is a pathetic 1.6:1.

Knight was one Joe's worst picks....right after Darko and Rodney White.
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Casey...

Post  Oracle on Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:53 pm

I too notice the venom being thrown Casey's way. Murph is right, we all embraced most of those coaches even though very few of them weren't expected to do much.

Casey can't even get respect, with a record that blows away all of them except Frank, and most people thought Frank didn't really deserve most of the respect he got, Kidd was running that show.

BTW Wise, it's not about who you want, it's about respect, especially when the guy hasn't been given a chance to do anything. 

Taking a wait and see approach is perfectly fine, jumping all over a guy that hasn't had any chance to show you what he can do here is odd, IMO.

Frank wasn't all that bad to me but he didn't deliver the goods, although his team was pretty crappy. Cheeks was downright HORRIBLE! I don't think I can think of any Pistons coach(or even assistant) that was worse than Cheeks.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:37 pm

Murph wrote:
WTF wrote:
The lets tell the whole story on Cheeks time here, seems somethings get forgotten starting with Joe's interference, player whining and again bein the scapegoated coach that he was I and not being able to coach the team his way who can blame him if he went to sleep.  While everyone was so gun ho about how Smith didn't fit Cheeks actually made it worked until Moose whined and Joe interfered.  Smith went to Cheeks and addressed the issue of how he could best be used and Cheeks agreed.  Not only did the team started consistently winning games Smith actually looked like a great pickup until both Moose and AD got to bitching.  Instead of Joe supporting his coach Joe was more about appeasing his 2 1st round picks.   There was a stretch of games like late Nov and early Dec we this team looked like it actually might be good until Joe fucked it up.  I'm going to go back and look but I'm almost certain this was the point Smith was carrying the team and Moose was pouting.  

Wise...your memory is faulty.  Under Cheeks, the Pistons started out 14-16, before the bottom fell out starting on Dec 27th, when they started a 6 game losing streak.  The Pistons never recovered, and Cheeks got fired 50 games into the season with a 21-29 record.

But this isn't about Cheeks.  It's the way this forum is treating Casey.  No coach has ever received the abuse Casey is receiving, before he even coached a single game.



And it was Van Gundy who totally ruined the Magic.  He took over a team with unlimited potential, and left it in shambles.  They haven't had a decent team since Van Gundy left 6 years ago.

And he just might have ruined the Pistons for years to come also.  We're capped out.  We don't have a 1st round pick, and if Griffin and Jackson go down with injuries again, this season is going to be another disaster.  

But that won't be on Casey.

Nice trip down memory lane relating to both of your thoughts. My thought is who in hell could ever win if you had to coach a team with two below average basketball big men who were seldom engaged relating to providing maximum effort that we see from the solid teams that were successful in the playoffs this year. I can't forget how badly Brandon Knight was ripped apart in his first and 2nd season. At least Knight worked his butt off in the summer learning how to defend between those two seasons. There was no point guard in the NBA that could make that team into a winner. Moose and Maxiell combination and then AD and Moose. I have to say that AD picked up a lot of bad habits playing basketball with Monroe. Do any of you remember Moose wandering out beyond the 3 point line on defense when the center he was supposed to be guarding was in the paint? AD has done that more than a few times. Remember when there was all that talk about possibly giving Moose a max contract. He played for about one week under the watchful eyes of Jason Kidd and Kidd wanted to vomit knowing Moose was a huge liability. Yet Kidd did get the most out of Monroe in the playoffs two years ago. I never saw Moose play that hard before. The Pistons management at least didn't give Monroe a new contract. But the former Piston coaches you all mentioned had zero chance of success because of the blunders of Joe Dumars. Now we have a owner who scares me.

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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:36 pm

WTF wrote:
The lets tell the whole story on Cheeks time here, seems somethings get forgotten starting with Joe's interference, player whining and again bein the scapegoated coach that he was I and not being able to coach the team his way who can blame him if he went to sleep.  While everyone was so gun ho about how Smith didn't fit Cheeks actually made it worked until Moose whined and Joe interfered.  Smith went to Cheeks and addressed the issue of how he could best be used and Cheeks agreed.  Not only did the team started consistently winning games Smith actually looked like a great pickup until both Moose and AD got to bitching.  Instead of Joe supporting his coach Joe was more about appeasing his 2 1st round picks.   There was a stretch of games like late Nov and early Dec we this team looked like it actually might be good until Joe fucked it up.  I'm going to go back and look but I'm almost certain this was the point Smith was carrying the team and Moose was pouting.  

Wise...your memory is faulty.  Under Cheeks, the Pistons started out 14-16, before the bottom fell out starting on Dec 27th, when they started a 6 game losing streak.  The Pistons never recovered, and Cheeks got fired 50 games into the season with a 21-29 record.

But this isn't about Cheeks.  It's the way this forum is treating Casey.  No coach has ever received the abuse Casey is receiving, before he even coached a single game.



And it was Van Gundy who totally ruined the Magic.  He took over a team with unlimited potential, and left it in shambles.  They haven't had a decent team since Van Gundy left 6 years ago.

And he just might have ruined the Pistons for years to come also.  We're capped out.  We don't have a 1st round pick, and if Griffin and Jackson go down with injuries again, this season is going to be another disaster.  

But that won't be on Casey.
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More Ranting

Post  WTF on Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:17 pm

I would hope that from the time he was hired that memos of his expectations were already in route to every player on the roster.  In fact there should have already been a team meeting.  So what you came with film to the interview I'm not **** impressed so what you talked about a plan tell me about it's been already placed in motion.  

I'm not interest in the media puff stories and the Pistons PR propaganda bullshit either.  Tell me about the meeting he's already had with all 15 players and what he's expecting.  Tell me about the list of assistance he's already has and then the back list to the back up list in case **** don't work out because when none of this is already done and offered up I don't want to hear about how freaking prepare he is.  Where's the freaking proactivity on the above.
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Not Kidding

Post  WTF on Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:06 pm

Murph wrote:"Both Cheeks and Franks were excellent coaches."

Wise...you've got to be kidding.  Franks was horrible.  The only good year he had was his first year in New Jersey, when Jason Kidd was the de facto coach and ran the team.

And Mo Cheeks use to literally fall asleep on the bench...fall asleep.   Sleep


And I'm not sold on the hiring of Casey.  As I have said ad nauseum, I would have preferred Zeke, Laimbeer and Kidd.  

But I'm not going to rip Casey before he's coached a single game.  He has a good track record and he won COY.   And he hasn't ruined any franchise to date, the way Van Gundy ruined the Magic (and maybe the Pistons).

Say what you want Jersey sent us home twice and went on to the NBA Finals with Frank as the coach. If indeed Kidd was de facto coach then he should be coaching the Pistons and not Casey. I preferred Kidd over Casey as well.

The lets tell the whole story on Cheeks time here, seems somethings get forgotten starting with Joe's interference, player whining and again bein the scapegoated coach that he was I and not being able to coach the team his way who can blame him if he went to sleep.  While everyone was so gun ho about how Smith didn't fit Cheeks actually made it worked until Moose whined and Joe interfered.  Smith went to Cheeks and addressed the issue of how he could best be used and Cheeks agreed.  Not only did the team started consistently winning games Smith actually looked like a great pickup until both Moose and AD got to bitching.  Instead of Joe supporting his coach Joe was more about appeasing his 2 1st round picks.   There was a stretch of games like late Nov and early Dec we this team looked like it actually might be good until Joe fucked it up.  I'm going to go back and look but I'm almost certain this was the point Smith was carrying the team and Moose was pouting.  

Also neither have any of the others ruined any franchise I can recall of.  Yes we all should be glad the team no longer under SVG but it doesn't validate Casey as best choice.  

When I think back many of you blasted Flip for no being LB, then cheered Curry for not being Flip.  In fact some I recalled hated LB because he wasn't Rick so that statement about lesser coaches getting breaks I remember 2 HOF ones that caught a bunch of flack on the old forum in their 1st season.  LB wasn't loved until the banner was hanging in the rafters at the Palace.  

If giving Casey a chance means patting him on his head for past accomplishments while not being critical in advance then it's not going to happen. What it sounds like to me is that some of you are already settling for less than Next Level and Gore has you right where he wants you in hanging on and hoping and him never having to deliver.  

Casey needs to bring his ass in proving his worth day one, say what you want about LB, Chuck, Flip, and Rick but they weren't trying to figure out who their top 9 players were 30 games into the season.  If Casey pulls that **** I'm done immediately with him. In the 25 game rule is not even in play this year IMMEDIATE RESULTS so this team better come out the gate winning.   He has from now to October to get the **** figured out which is more than enough time since some of you think he's the best choice.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:25 am

"Both Cheeks and Franks were excellent coaches."

Wise...you've got to be kidding.  Franks was horrible.  The only good years he had were his first few years in New Jersey, when Jason Kidd was point guard, and basically ran the team.  It was all down hill from there.

And Mo Cheeks use to literally fall asleep on the bench...fall asleep.   Sleep


And I'm not sold on the hiring of Casey either.  As I have said ad nauseum, I would have preferred Zeke, Laimbeer and Kidd.  

But I'm not going to rip Casey before he's coached a single game.  He has a good track record and he won COY.   And he hasn't ruined any franchise to date, the way Van Gundy ruined the Magic (and maybe the Pistons).
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Re: FORUM

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