Damn, Damn, Damn!!

[lemonpen]

Horror show indeed.  Looking at my nine minutes of highlights as well as the roster makes me confused about why we're doing so horribly.  I guess that's mainly because bad defense isn't so apparent in highlights.

Lemonpen preached patience, in accord with an article (focusing on the schedule) presented the 20 game point as a crucial marker.  I could see them still getting this thing going.

Still, as little as I've seen, I've seen enough.  You should be able to get some return for Rose, Snell, and, yes, even Galloway.  If Griffin's ailing, I like Murph's idea of shutting him down for a while.  If he's just trying to find his legs, he should be able to get a decent return later in the year.  Surely Drummond could yield a good return, eg, with GS, where he could be the 3rd (or 4th) option next year.

Even a series of trades like that would not put us back to zero, but would leave some promising pieces on the roster, especially Kennard, along with players and picks and salary relief brought in.

Realistically, I can't see the team going that direction.  A Griffin trade does seem like a real possibility though.

Another horror show.  Now we’re getting beaten by teams that are in full rebuild mode.  At this point, we should all hope that we lose even more.  Right now, we have the 5th worst record in the league. This year’s draft is very deep in PGs.   Theo Maledon, Cole Anthony, Nico Mannion and Killian Hayes should all go between 5-12.  

We should shut down Griffin for the season.  Something isn’t right.  He’s a shadow of his pre-All star self from last season.  

Don...any thoughts on Mannion?

The moment I open my trap in their support, they do THAT.

The cussing still echos off of my family room walls.

[Sparma]

Rod Beard (from our old haunts at the detnews): "Two-way players Jordan Bone and Louis King and first-round pick Sekou Doumbouya have been lighting it up with the Grand Rapids Drive in the G-League. Bone is posting 20.3 points and 9.5 assists and shooting 42 percent on 3-pointers, and Doumbouya 16.6 points, 3.6 rebounds and 36 percent beyond the arc. King is at 19.2 points and seven rebounds. They may not get much time with the Pistons this year, but it bodes well for their development."

I like Murph's idea of not rushing Blake at all this year, maybe sitting him a lot, and getting a high pick PG in the draft, then having another go for a couple years. That's assuming there's not a great trade to be had this season. A mini-reset might be the way to go. The ultimate exemplar are the Spurs who got a dynasty out of being abysmal for a year, and landing Duncan. Can't see that in the offing for us, but maybe there's a fruitful middle ground between letting the vets carry us to further mediocrity and tanking.

[Phil-Good]

"At this point, we should all hope that we lose even more. Right now, we have the 5th worst record in the league. This year’s draft is very deep in PGs. Theo Maledon, Cole Anthony, Nico Mannion and Killian Hayes should all go between 5-12."

Don't worry. The Pistons will F.U.C.K. it up and start winning ball games. Trust and believe me. This is why the Pistons have the 6th highest pay roll in the NBA but are maybe the 10th best team in the weak Eastern Conference.

This is my east playoff tam in no specific order.

Miami
Boston
Indiana
Brooklyn
Atlanta
Philadelphia
Milwaukee
Toronto
Orlando

I believe all those teams are better then Detroit. Orlando would be the bubble team but Orlando is just a bad as Detroit but Orlando is younger and has A better future then Detroit has right now.

If Detroit had A young stud at the PG position and A starting small forward I would like this Pistons team. I have no problem with Bruce as the starting PG, but the huge gap at Small Forward is killing the Pistons.

[Sparma]

Horror show indeed. Looking at my nine minutes of highlights as well as the roster makes me confused about why we're doing so horribly. I guess that's mainly because bad defense isn't so apparent in highlights.

Lemonpen preached patience, in accord with an article (focusing on the schedule) presented the 20 game point as a crucial marker. I could see them still getting this thing going.

Still, as little as I've seen, I've seen enough. You should be able to get some return for Rose, Snell, and, yes, even Galloway. If Griffin's ailing, I like Murph's idea of shutting him down for a while. If he's just trying to find his legs, he should be able to get a decent return later in the year. Surely Drummond could yield a good return, eg, with GS, where he could be the 3rd (or 4th) option next year.

Even a series of trades like that would not put us back to zero, but would leave some promising pieces on the roster, especially Kennard, along with players and picks and salary relief brought in.

Realistically, I can't see the team going that direction. A Griffin trade does seem like a real possibility though.

Another horror show.  Now we’re getting beaten by teams that are in full rebuild mode.  At this point, we should all hope that we lose even more.  Right now, we have the 5th worst record in the league. This year’s draft is very deep in PGs.   Theo Maledon, Cole Anthony, Nico Mannion and Killian Hayes should all go between 5-12.  

We should shut down Griffin for the season.  Something isn’t right.  He’s a shadow of his pre-All star self from last season.  

Don...any thoughts on Mannion?

[Murph]

Another horror show. Now we’re getting beaten by teams that are in full rebuild mode. At this point, we should all hope that we lose even more. Right now, we have the 5th worst record in the league. This year’s draft is very deep in PGs. Theo Maledon, Cole Anthony, Nico Mannion and Killian Hayes should all go between 5-12.

We should shut down Griffin for the season. Something isn’t right. He’s a shadow of his pre-All star self from last season.

Don...any thoughts on Mannion?

[deusXango]

To his credit Langston Galloway is playing the best basketball of his contract (final year of his contract) however he has no business on the floor, anymore than Tim Frazier does! Neither one of those players should be viewed as "core" players or players to be developed. They're not needle movers! The record is 4-8 and all concerned are living with it. The time Bruce Brown spent starting at PG was more productive than Frazier, but Casey finds fault with Brown and plays Frazier whenever he can. The case of Langston v Svi is ridiculous as far as I'm concerned...Langston has reached his ceiling and it's yet to be determined what Svi's is. So are we developing Galloway at the expense of sitting Mykhailiuk? A 6' 2" shooter v 6' 8" multi skilled shooter? Child please! The record of 4-8 could be more acceptable playing the developing the young'uns in Griffin and Rose's absence than loosing with "grizzled" veterans. That's where the cohesion has been lost.

We really need the contributions of Thon Maker over Christian Wood, right? If Casey had his way and Iso Joe beat Wood out for the 15th roster spot, he'd be playing in front of Tony Snell by now. So the question in my mind, is Maker more valuable than Snell, who's starting? Coaching decisions based on favoritism that impacts negatively on a teams overall performance sucks! Snell and Maker are both trade bait or at least they should be. If we're consistently talking trading Drummond and Griffin, then those mentioned players would swing a trade in our favor instead of us sacrificing and coming up on the short end. That statement is aimed at those who advocate including our first round pick to come home with a "decent" player! I'm in lockstep agreement with Murph on a consistent starting unit of Brown, Kennard, Svi, Wood, and Drummond until Griffin and Rose returns in great playing shape. Bench? We've got Bone and King to be led by Galloway and Morris; what's to loose? We're already bottom feeders who probably won't make the playoffs and Casey can't find lineup cohesion.

Oh, I'd love to take a peek into that crystal ball that shows, without a doubt, Doumbouya ain't and won't be sh!t. Because of his age, lack of English skills, in spite of his otherworldly athleticism, and shooting potential, he's sure to be a bust and a wasted first round pick. I got high hopes for Sekou Doumbouya.

DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE!! The young'uns can't play DEFENSE. They make mistakes and blow assignments! Who the hell are we stopping now with the players being played? Teams are scoring at will. Maybe if Casey and staff took the time with their charges and taught them defense, somebody might get it...maybe.

[cool breeze]

@deusxango
“Is everyone genuinely satisfied with Casey's performance, sans the articulate excuses” ...

I think the proper question is  “is anyone genuinely satisfied...”
NOPE

@Murph
“Do we even care anymore? What do you prefer?
1. Tank Time
2. Trade Season
3. Stand Pat
4. Go all in”

“The performance over the last 2 games has been shockingly bad, and the season is already beginning to slip away. Somehow, Griffin’s return has made the team much worse, even when he’s not on the court.   I think the first order of business is to trade Griffin, if possible. We simple can’t do anything else, until we trade Griffin. We can’t tank, we can’t rebuild and we can’t realistically stand pat.”

BallinD: Big If,  but if they’re gonna rebuild/ or reboot, whatever,  I think we need to quit fooling ourselves and dump both Dre n Blake, otherwise “If you keep doing what you’ve always done you’ll keep getting wha you’ve always gotten.

I see two problems:
Casey didn’t sign up to rebuild, nor Gores, nor Rose, and Dre is not an Alpha male type to lead a team on his own. He’ll probably bolt if he sniffs a rebuild.

Sell All: Keep Luke, Brown Sekou, Svi and Wood, IMO

Ballin that is what makes sense when looking at this team objectively. But why is this such a surprise that the Pistons are playing the same ball they played in the last 2 weeks of the regular season before their playoff appearance? The Pistons backed into the playoffs looking terrible while playing bad teams and then the Bucks took the Pistons apart identifying weaknesses in their 2nd highest paid athlete as well as perhaps the worst backcourt in the NBA. The owner said he was pleased. That comment to me was scary. How could any owner be proud of the way the Pistons performed in the first round of the playoffs? History should be a consideration by the owner but somehow he was excited. I also see that fans actually believe that Sekou for sure is going to be a NBA rotation player some day. I am not so sure. I go to college games and see freshman who are incredibly fundamentally sound players and know how to play the 5 man game. The Pistons have signed a lot of specialist because Casey and SVG both have a one track mind. Find outside shooters and don't bother to find out if they can play a lick of defense or have a mid range game. Eliminate the idea that any new signee or draftee is a player who plays unselfishly. Who cares if the players they sign have never heard of boxing out in the paint on the weak side or any side.

Do what is necessary to get some high draft picks for the next 3 years. That is the only course that makes any sense. That means moving both players who occupy the starting front court positions.

[lemonpen]

Reality gives.  We’re 4-8, which is good for the 6th worst record in the league.  And frankly, we’re lucky to be 4-8.  And 12 games is getting to be a pretty decent sample size.  

12 games, mostly without your key performers, provides nowhere near the data required to make that type of decision, particularly when your key performers are just now returning.  

Take a look at the spacing and competition level of our next 9 games.   We could win 8 of um even while limiting Griff and Roses work load.

[Murph]

Reality gives. We’re 4-8, which is good for the 6th worst record in the league. And frankly, we’re lucky to be 4-8. And 12 games is getting to be a pretty decent sample size.

[lemonpen]

3 weeks ago 80% of this forum predicted the Stones would win at least 40 games. Fast forward a dozen games and it seems 80% of this forum is now willing to chuck it all. Didn't we go into this thing KNOWING it would be a bumpy ride trying to negotiate youth development and iffy health.

What gives???

[lemonpen]

First, let me say I am clearly confused.  This disaster of a season has caught me completely by surprise.  The season is already slipping away.

With that in mind, let me present a new idea.  What if we did a mini-tank or temporary tank?   What if we shut down Blake  for the season, and let him get completely healthy?  And what if we continued to play the youngsters to give them critical experience?   What if we started Brown at PG,  Kennard at SG, Svi at SF and Wood at PF and lost as many games as possible?

Then if we snagged something like the 5th pick in the draft, we could take a stud PG of the future, such as Cole Anthony or Killian Hayes, who we could build around.

Then next year, re-sign Drummond, bring back all the vets, like Griffin, Rose, Snell and Morris, and return with all the youngsters like Brown, Kennard, Svi, Wood and our stud PG...along with a new coach.

We would have quite a battle on our hands given the leagues position against load management. Probably an expensive battle.

[Murph]

First, let me say I am clearly confused. This disaster of a season has caught me completely by surprise. The season is already slipping away.

With that in mind, let me present a new idea. What if we did a mini-tank or temporary tank? What if we shut down Blake for the season, and let him get completely healthy? And what if we continued to play the youngsters to give them critical experience? What if we started Brown at PG, Kennard at SG, Svi at SF and Wood at PF and lost as many games as possible?

Then if we snagged something like the 5th pick in the draft, we could take a stud PG of the future, such as Cole Anthony or Killian Hayes, who we could build around.

Then next year, re-sign Drummond, bring back all the vets, like Griffin, Rose, Snell and Morris, and return with all the youngsters like Brown, Kennard, Svi, Wood and our stud PG...along with a new coach.

[Sparma]

I'm going to pray to the basketball gods that Blake continues to make a strong rentree, and can be traded, for a) cap relief, b) a decent young player, and c) a top half first rounder. Hard to see the rest falling into place without that. And I say that with admiration for the throwback Piston performance Blake put in last year.

Concerning Dre, I'm torn. If it were just table game of strategy and he'd look headed to the supermax, I traded. It's not though, and with real people involved, and legacies and loyalties, I'd sign him, at least to the max or maybe something close to the supermax (Murph's 40 mil) without the annual 8% penalties.

And can we please bring in a cutting edge coach who can relate to players someday?

The above doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer my own strategies of trying to collect a deep roster of guys (maybe both young and old, but few in their absolute [financial] prime) who outperformed their contracts, like Luke's doing now. Not doing better with all those high picks (Daye, Monroe, Knight, S. Johnson) may have been our biggest problem. A rising star on a rookie deal is so, so valuable.

Just wondering
What do you guys think, we’ve passed the 10 game mark with more injuries and angst than almost any recent time I can remember...

Do we even care anymore? What do you prefer?
1. Tank Time
2. Trade Season
3. Stand Pat
4. Go all in, offer expirings and a 1st to get a $20 mill caliber youngster in the mold of DLo, Butler, or Draymond type, who could make a difference. Good Luck on finding one!

With Casey looking like he’s bout to simultaneously blow a gasket...and fall into a mental fugue...
*injuries are the new normal in the NBA Casey, so try another excuse, or stop playing footsie with the lineups/rotations and try coach.

Does anybody care that it seems the forum’s been awfully quiet as the Pistons appear to have lost the ability to inspire hope (we already saw this movie).  

But wait, what about young Luke Skywalker, now emerging to answer our collective prayers for a 20ppg? Guard, but it seems to not be enough.

And yet, the hero (Dre) appears to have  stumbled a bit lately after starting with a bang (now it’s foul trouble).

Are the Pistons burning through the last little bit of their Goodwill with Metro Detroit fans.  I suspect at some point in December, they will gain traction and chemistry but it could be deemed too late and “Blow it Up” could become the new mantra?

[BallinD]

@deusxango
“Is everyone genuinely satisfied with Casey's performance, sans the articulate excuses” ...

I think the proper question is “is anyone genuinely satisfied...”
NOPE

@Murph
“Do we even care anymore? What do you prefer?
1. Tank Time
2. Trade Season
3. Stand Pat
4. Go all in”

“The performance over the last 2 games has been shockingly bad, and the season is already beginning to slip away. Somehow, Griffin’s return has made the team much worse, even when he’s not on the court. I think the first order of business is to trade Griffin, if possible. We simple can’t do anything else, until we trade Griffin. We can’t tank, we can’t rebuild and we can’t realistically stand pat.”

BallinD: Big If, but if they’re gonna rebuild/ or reboot, whatever, I think we need to quit fooling ourselves and dump both Dre n Blake, otherwise “If you keep doing what you’ve always done you’ll keep getting wha you’ve always gotten.

I see two problems:
Casey didn’t sign up to rebuild, nor Gores, nor Rose, and Dre is not an Alpha male type to lead a team on his own. He’ll probably bolt if he sniffs a rebuild.

Sell All: Keep Luke, Brown Sekou, Svi and Wood, IMO

[deusXango]

Is everyone genuinely satisfied with Casey's performance, sans the articulate excuses?

[Murph]

“Do we even care anymore? What do you prefer?
1. Tank Time
2. Trade Season
3. Stand Pat
4. Go all in”

The performance over the last 2 games has been shockingly bad, and the season is already beginning to slip away. Somehow, Griffin’s return has made the team much worse, even when he’s not on the court.

I am by no means blaming Griffin for the entire fiasco. He has been a loyal soldier. He didn’t want to come here, but he didn’t complain, not once. And he was over-used last year to the point of jeopardizing what’s left of his career, and again, he didn’t complain.

That said, I think the first order of business is to trade Griffin, if possible. We simple can’t do anything else, until we trade Griffin. We can’t tank, we can’t rebuild and we can’t realistically stand pat.

[BallinD]

Just wondering
What do you guys think, we’ve passed the 10 game mark with more injuries and angst than almost any recent time I can remember...

Do we even care anymore? What do you prefer?
1. Tank Time
2. Trade Season
3. Stand Pat
4. Go all in, offer expirings and a 1st to get a $20 mill caliber youngster in the mold of DLo, Butler, or Draymond type, who could make a difference. Good Luck on finding one!

With Casey looking like he’s bout to simultaneously blow a gasket...and fall into a mental fugue...
*injuries are the new normal in the NBA Casey, so try another excuse, or stop playing footsie with the lineups/rotations and try coach.

Does anybody care that it seems the forum’s been awfully quiet as the Pistons appear to have lost the ability to inspire hope (we already saw this movie).

But wait, what about young Luke Skywalker, now emerging to answer our collective prayers for a 20ppg? Guard, but it seems to not be enough.

And yet, the hero (Dre) appears to have stumbled a bit lately after starting with a bang (now it’s foul trouble).

Are the Pistons burning through the last little bit of their Goodwill with Metro Detroit fans. I suspect at some point in December, they will gain traction and chemistry but it could be deemed too late and “Blow it Up” could become the new mantra?

[Sparma]

we need to squint hard to look into the future.

Weird how recurrent the Griffin trade rumors are. There just might be something to them. Of course, everyone wants a discount in dealing with a team that's down. And Griffin's clearly fragile. Still, Phoenix might be a good destination.

Disappointing game last night.

Building around (a soon to be super expensive) Drummond and Kennard may be viable. It still seems more likely to me that they bring someone in (but not Chris Paul, right?) for a two and a half year run (?) along with Dre, Blake, and Blake.

That would be interesting, although that scenario needn't spur the team to rush to order ticker tape for the parade. Can't hurt to get a big box of confetti going in a spare equipment room though.

[cool breeze]

Logic and reason should apply relating to what plan this ownership group should create for the best path to build a championship contender. As constructed at this time, the Pistons are not a treat to win one playoff game. There is no fact that could lead anyone to believe that the players now under contract will be any better next season. In fact if they keep Blake and AD, there is a good chance that this team will be a bit worse next season and even worse in 2 years.

Luke Kennard might have the best chance of being considered an elite player in the future. Is he the Pistons best player now? Apparently, AD is considered so valuable that he is worth $40 plus million a season? Is he really an elite player when thinking of playoff players? Has he solved the issues or defects in his game that caused the Bucks to build their offensive game plan around AD's weaknesses last spring? It seems that because of AD's good start during the easiest portion of the Pistons schedule that fans are on board for the owner to announce this anticipated signing which will cripple the Pistons financially and limit their ability to sign players like Kennard or top free agents in the future. If that happens what does that do relating to resigning Luke Kennard? Or for that matter how can anyone expect that the Pistons backcourt will ever be able to compete with the top NBA teams that know better than to spend the bulk of their money on front court players who are not in the same category as a player like Anthony Davis.

Apply the same argument I used relating to AD with Blake Griffin. Is he a player the Pistons should build a team around when they do not currently have top tier talent at other important positions?

What if the Pistons traded both front court players and lose the contracts of Reggie Jackson and Langston Galloway after this season. I like the idea that trades could bring in some top talent through the draft. Being that I attend a lot of college games, I see how some of the 18 year old players have mature bodies and are capable of playing better defense and make better decisions on offense than many of the current players who get time with the Pistons. Imagine the Pistons staging 1 or possibly 2 (19) year old players who can make a rotation next season. What would the Pistons look like in 2 to 4 seasons if they followed this path? Wouldn't fans bond with young talented players who might provide new hope for success rather than having a plan to achieve (average) in regular season games? I am watching Nico Mannion who so far is showing that he can think 2 plays ahead on offense unlike any point guards the Pistons currently have on the roster now. This kid is a freshman. Also, Nico has has quick feet and plays smart on the defensive end and a good NBA body type. There are several players perhaps better than Nico who will be in the draft next summer. What do the Pistons have to lose? Will this ownership group blow opportunities to trade players who cannot win in the playoffs and be content to perhaps break even during the regular season? It appears that is where the Pistons are headed. Will the ownership group add to the 12 years of misery and make it 16 years? It appears that Piston Fans will have to continue to study the stats to find any comfort as they watch other teams with powerful back courts thrive. Stat keeping is good for player agents when they bargain for new contracts. To build a championship contender a lot of brain power is required by the team's ownership group. Over the last 12 years it appears that our ownership group is not learned much. Owners such as the franchise in Cleveland, Phoenix, Clippers etc. seem to be three levels ahead of the owners of the Pistons. But of course there is the pre game and half time entertainment. That might attract more fans in the future.

[Murph]

Suns are better than expected even with Ayton out. Some talk in Arizona about Suns management being interested in Blake. If so it appears the Pistons might be able to negotiate for the Suns high draft pick next summer. Pistons could sign Dre which would make some posters happy. This could provide a better balance as to where the money is spread out and into a future top tier backcourt.

It would be great of the Suns are really interested in acquiring Griffin...almost too good to be true.


I thought last night's results were disappointing. I was hoping for a win. I guess there are bound to be initial chemistry problems when a player the magnitude of Griffin comes back. Still, I was hoping for value added. Let's hope the chemistry improves with time.

One thing is for sure, Griffin's presence on the court, for whatever reason, seems to negatively impact Drummond. Drummond had his worst game of the season by far last night.

[cool breeze]

Suns are better than expected even with Ayton out. Some talk in Arizona about Suns management being interested in Blake. If so it appears the Pistons might be able to negotiate for the Suns high draft pick next summer. Pistons could sign Dre which would make some posters happy. This could provide a better balance as to where the money is spread out and into a future top tier backcourt.

[BallinD]

Glad you enjoyed the charts. I too think that we should and will see Dre put up more shots and points this season, but its a thin line between heaven and hell when he tries to do to much.

I would rather see Luke work a three-man game with Blake and Dre. It is his time. He can handle extra shots cause unlike many scorers, he is reticent to take poor shots, a caveat Dre is still learning.

Luke’s already running as many or more pg sets PnR and other stufff than Bruce, according to Case.

I’d say 22 -7 -7 is a good goal for Blake, 20 - 4 -4 -5 for Luke and 20-20-4 for Dre. 15 -6 for Rose, I think. Wanna see them force feed Snell a bit.

In D, I think we need reinforcements, but Casey needs to coach-up Wood, it took a good 6-years for Dre to get it and he’ll likely never be as good as Wood on O. But it shows what Wood could do with PT and coaching.

Until we get two-way guards in here, the D will fail at the point of attack. IMHO. Blake will help with his strength, communication, (calling out sets) and he was top three in the league taking charges. He’s an average defender but I think his return will help the team D.

[Murph]

A picture is worth a thousand words?
Another analytics graphic supposedly showing offensive and defensive value.  

(Graphic by NBA Math)
Expected: Dre our best defensive player, (total points saved) Luke our best offensive player (total points added)

Takeaways:  
Best defensive 5: Dre, Bruce, Khyri Thon, Bone?
Best Offensive 5: Luke, Dre, Snell, Rose, Gallows, (Wood, runner up)

Dre is the only true 2-way guy. Wood second best two- way guy.

BallinD...thank you for that fascinating and informative chart. I think 3 things stand out. 1) Drummond is by far and away the most valuable combination of offense and defense. No one even comes close.

2) None besides Drummond can play above average defense on this team.

And 3) Markieff Morris is by far the worst combination of offense and defense.

[Murph]

It's good to hear that Blake Griffin will be returning tonight. Hopefully, he will bee relatively healthy. I think the important thing is to manage his minutes and his role on the team in order to keep him healthy.

With this in mind, I would like to see Griffin start, but be limited to 24 minutes a game, at least for the first 10 or 20 games, to see if his knee holds up.

I would also like to see his role on the team change a little. Rather than being the focus of the offense, I would like to see the PG run the offense, and Drummond continue as the leading scorer. Of course Drummond will have to sacrifice his game, with Griffin in the line-up like he did last year. But I would like to see Drummond continue as the leading scorer.

I would like to see Griffin provide veteran leadership, and perhaps have the ball in his hands for some critical possessions. But I think the important thing is Griffin's health up and until the playoffs.

[BallinD]

Dre n Rose among Early NBA leaders in Iso points per possession. Casey loves him some Iso so expect to see more of this when Blake returns. But if Bruce continues to start and coaching continues to run screens and motion with BB, Luke, Gallows and Snell, we could have something special since with our 3pt percentages we are I believe 3rd in the league,, but our defense has dipped as all know.

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