Murph/ Silver

[Sparma]

True! He's had a remarkable record as political prognosticator, but totally missed that one. I can remember watching that number come down hour by hour on election night.

With the season about to begin, 538 (led by Michigan native Nate Silver) projects the Pistons at 35-47, with a 38% chance for the playoffs.  Dang.  Why do I feel so confident those are low projections?  

Because Nate Silver's crystal ball is a little cloudy lately.  He had Hillary at a 70% chance of winning the election last November.

[Oracle]

Remember we have until the 10th game of the season, then I make a last call for predictions... Good Luck to all!

Regular Season
Member	Wins
Cool Breeze	47
Murph	44
Sparma	43
Oracle	42
Wise	40
Lemonpen	39
Stones
DX
Phil1980boy
Sebastian
BallinD
Merc
Fly
Fennis
Sissy

[Oracle]

With the season about to begin, 538 (led by Michigan native Nate Silver) projects the Pistons at 35-47, with a 38% chance for the playoffs.  Dang.  Why do I feel so confident those are low projections?  

Because Nate Silver's crystal ball is a little cloudy lately.  He had Hillary at a 70% chance of winning the election last November.

I had two blowouts last night and got two very close games

With Boston likely moving down in the power rankings, it still doesn't help us move up since they're still going to land in the top 4/5.

[Murph]

With the season about to begin, 538 (led by Michigan native Nate Silver) projects the Pistons at 35-47, with a 38% chance for the playoffs.  Dang.  Why do I feel so confident those are low projections?  

Because Nate Silver's crystal ball is a little cloudy lately.  He had Hillary at a 70% chance of winning the election last November.

[Murph]

44 wins, down from 46.

The PG issue did not get completely resolved in the preseason.  RJ is still not 100%, and the Pistons are still playing better with Smith running the point than Jackson.  So these issues are going to get dragged into the season.  Either Jackson gets healthy and starts to make the players around him better, or SVG needs to start Smith and Smith needs to step up, or the Pistons need to convert Bradley to PG, or the Pistons need to trade for a new starting PG.

[Oracle]

[Oracle]

There is no doubt that the Pistons had no player last season like Avery Bradley. In fact it was the blind leading the blind last season. If perhaps SVG had not sent Beno to the bench so quickly with a hobbling Reggie Jackson retired to duty maybe his impact relating to having more of a winning type attitude might have rubbed off on others. I have always loved listening to stories Steve Kerr would tell about training camp with Michael Jordan. He was tough on his teammates. 

Exactly, and whose fault is that? SVG of course!

He made the assumption that they had grown up and no veteran influence was needed, and it was badly needed.

This is the biggest possible bad point of KCP going to the Lakers, a really young team with little veteran leadership, especially in the guard area, maybe Magic can help, but I doubt it.

In reality Reggie should have been the steady hand last year but injury didn't let that happen, if it was even going to happen, but we'll see about this year.

Speaking of Reggie, I think he's going to be around 85% to start the season and will get back fairly quickly. My prediction is that both Reggie & Stanley start. I'm pretty much 100% on Reggie and about 90% on Stanley. If Stanley starts it's going to be a must watch to see both him and Bradley's effect on our perimeter defense. Better perimeter defense will make Drummond more effective as well.

Interesting games tonight, it might be two blowouts... Cavs & Warriors win!

[cool breeze]

Is a symbol (of freedom) bigger, more worth preserving, coddling and bowing to than the freedom itself.  When that freedom is  expressed by the people the symbol is supposed to represent  (hint: It's not solely the military,) it's the citizens, we should honor the freedom, which supposedly the military protects and serves, same as cops, whether crooked cops or those who simply look the other way?!?!

Sure Don, Racism exists, so if it doesn't affect me, I should ignore it?  Humans are supposed to have conscience, which in part means we act on what is right, despite how it affects me personally.  Politics is applied power and respects tyranny, big money, oppression and so many other selfish ignorance stances in this country.

Do we ignore cutting the grass, cause "hell grass exists, just live with it," ignore a wounded or dying person cause "hell, death exists, let's just let em die," a hungry person, cause "hell, hunger exists," let em starve in the land of plenty, where we often throw away more food than people eat.

Well, the Republic is starving for some conscience.  Real, living people are dying, being beaten, shot in the back, ostracized, marginalized and denigrated and some would say the "symbol" needs protecting, rather than the people it supposedly represents.  The symbol and the anthem do not truly represent all people here, and that is not an insult, that is a fact.  

It is a fact, whether an athlete, a veteran, an entertainer, or even a politician says it or disputes it!

Without the hundred's of thousands of servicemen and women who died along with a million others who were wounded, none of us minority folks would even be around to discuss this nonsense. Stand as an individual not as some keeling fool who would never had thought about kneeling unless somebody had suggested the idea. I suggest some of you read some of the non fiction out there on those heroes from WW2 many of whom were Black. Japan soldiers had been brainwashed to the point where they thought that there blood line was the only pure blood line and that they were the super race. And in Europe the same thing happened to young Germans who truly believed that were the super race and everyone else needed to be exterminated. If Japan and Germany had won that war what would have happened to us? Japan made no distinction between Black and White faces. If you were not Japanese you needed to be in slave labor camps because you were considered sub humans. That is whey they murdered so many captured American soldiers or starved them to death. We Americans were not really human. We were sub human in their eyes. You would not be able to debate your views on racism if we had lost that war. You wouldn't be alive. So should racism claims trump saluting or at least standing to honor those WW 2 people who sacrificed their own lives for your benefit. I firmly believe that our new Piston player Avery Bradley will be one man who thousands of young Black, Hispanic and White kids will be watching this basketball season closely. Hopefully, those young kids will see his high character, dedication and drive to play basketball the right way. They will talk about him at school and will be saying i want to be just like him. If kids have horrible parents who are out kneeling and talking about racism while ignoring their own kids, then kids will at least have Avery Bradley and other Piston players to model themselves with. Maybe they will not all be great basketball players but perhaps they will see the discipline some of these college and pro athletes acquire and they will be inspired to work harder in the classroom and turn down that job opportunity to be involved in the drug trade. Employers are looking for Black people who have that same look Bradley has. They do not want to hire someone who dresses like a gang banger and never takes a shower. It is up to each individual to overcome any obstacle that confronts them in life. If they waste time chirping about being cheated or screwed over or mistreated by a group of gang bangers (who are must more of a threat to human life than cops) or cops then no matter how many favors are passed out to them to make up for whatever insult is felt, there is no way in hell that they will ever show any upward mobility to get to a better place in life. Forcing football fans to watch self pity demonstrations only drags down the rest of us minority folks who just want to be known by our first names and as Americans. As my old college teammate "Fletcher" said as we were walking back to our dorm after the second practice of the day, " do you ever think people will call me Fletcher and forget that I am a Black man? I like White people. I don't want to be forced into being with someone of my own race all of the time". Those who pull the puppet strings and get minority people on board with their slimy mind games love keeping people rounded up in groups so they can control the groups. We have to separate from groups and be counted as individuals and judged on an individual basis. Who are we as individuals. How can we get better as individuals. Nobody is going to get me to kneel. I will stand for those WW2 heroes who saved us from certain liquidation if the bad guys had won. Those dead kids who fought for us years ago gave those who want to keel the privliage to kneel for sure but to not stand is disrespectful any way you cut it. Racism exists. Big deal. Move on. And for the NFL kneelers, why not stand and think about how they can be better citizens and become better role models for those kids in the inner city who are starving for some love. Kneeling does jack squat for them and those players know it. By kneeling it just gets Black lives Matter off their backs. They are afraid of that group as they should be but are they cowards because they fear the wrath of Black Lives Matter and George Soros more than the football fans. Sure they do. In a way I feel sorry for the football players. But I admire those Black players who stand not kneel and will not be manipulated even though they may be fearful of the consequences that may come if you as a Black person do not obey the group mandate. They are the real heroes who stand as individuals with no political affiliation just to honor those soldiers who were kids when they died for us.

[cool breeze]

There is no doubt that the Pistons had no player last season like Avery Bradley. In fact it was the blind leading the blind last season. If perhaps SVG had not sent Beno to the bench so quickly with a hobbling Reggie Jackson retired to duty maybe his impact relating to having more of a winning type attitude might have rubbed off on others. I have always loved listening to stories Steve Kerr would tell about training camp with Michael Jordan. He was tough on his teammates. His attention to detail on the defensive end inspired his teammates so much each practice was a knock down drag out fight and then they unleashed that attitude and conditioning on the rest of the league and completely dominated. Now we have a guy who is doing the exact same thing for many Piston players that Jordan did for the Bulls in his day. Holding each other accountable is a good thing. Knowing you have a leader on the team who insists on playing the game the right way with complete focus requires extreme physical and mental discipline. Maybe if Andre Drummond spends the season around Bradley on a daily basic he will see the light and learn exactly what it takes to become the best basketball player he can be. That should be his goal. If AD can make that mental transition, he could be the monster elite basketball player we will adore. Reggie Jackson sure talks a lot about how Bradley will hold him accountable and he will hold Bradley accountable this season. Bradley is in outstanding physical and mental condition. Reggie Jackson is not even in basketball shape yet. So if I were Reggie I wouldn't be giving any statements to the press just yet. Jackson is in the same boat as Andre Drummond. If either or both of those players could ever acquire the same good habits and discipline successful pro athletes need to have to be successful, just how good could the Pistons actually become? Right now Reggie is making comments that he feels that he is on a par with Bradley when he is not. Jackson has never ever gotten himself into a top tier level where he has put in enough work so his body will allow him to play all out on both ends of the floor when the need arrises. Sorry Reggie you are just not there yet so it would be smart to avoid the press reporters until you put in the actual work it takes to become a player your teammates will respect. Here Reggie is talking the talk but still cannot guard any starting point guards in the league. He has the body type and ability to learn how to play defense like Bradley but he still hasn't done the damn work. I give RJ about a 35% chance of ever achieving any respect as a NBA defensive player.

The player who really might benefit from having Bradley around is Stanley Johnson. Johnson does at least have a clue as to how hard it is to play defense at a high level in the NBA. At least Johnson has made some effort to get better and improve his conditioning. Johnson has outstanding potential to become a top tier defender in the NBA. Bradley will push him for sure and Johnson will love being pushed. All Johnson needed last season was one player on his team that he could look up to and say I want to be like him. Instead last year's leaders were all talkers much like Reggie Jackson is doing now. RJ of course mentioned his close relationship and great chemistry he has with AD in their pick and roll two man game. Notice AD is instead talking about his new role as a facilitator which is what SVG wants more of from him this season. No Reggie is not giving up on being a ball hog. But he has now placed some pressure on himself relating to knowing that Bradley is going to hold him accountable for his actions or lack of action on the court especially relating to sharing the basketball and playing defense the right way instead of the slackers way.

Johnson, Ellenson and Kennard are very young and impressionable yet they show some spunk and heart that I never saw in Charlie V. Bradley as the leader will help them grow and for sure all three will being trying hard to get better on the defensive end. They just need the confidence of their head coach to allow them to make mistakes while they get better. Playing time for these three players is critical for the long term success of the Detroit Pistons. It will be very interesting to see who makes the rotation and how many players will be included in the rotation. It would be sweet to win this first game at home. The road games coming up will be even tougher if they leave town with a loss.

[Sparma]

With the season about to begin, 538 (led by Michigan native Nate Silver) projects the Pistons at 35-47, with a 38% chance for the playoffs. Dang. Why do I feel so confident those are low projections?

[BallinD]

Is a symbol (of freedom) bigger, more worth preserving, coddling and bowing to than the freedom itself.  When that freedom is  expressed by the people the symbol is supposed to represent (hint: It's not solely the military,) it's the citizens, we should honor the freedom, which supposedly the military protects and serves, same as cops, whether crooked cops or those who simply look the other way?!?!

Sure Don, Racism exists, so if it doesn't affect me, I should ignore it?  Humans are supposed to have conscience, which in part means we act on what is right, despite how it affects me personally.  Politics is applied power and respects tyranny, big money, oppression and so many other selfish ignorance stances in this country.

Do we ignore cutting the grass, cause "hell grass exists, just live with it," ignore a wounded or dying person cause "hell, death exists, let's just let em die," a hungry person, cause "hell, hunger exists," let em starve in the land of plenty, where we often throw away more food than people eat.

Well, the Republic is starving for some conscience.  Real, living people are dying, being beaten, shot in the back, ostracized, marginalized and denigrated and some would say the "symbol" needs protecting, rather than the people it supposedly represents.  The symbol and the anthem do not truly represent all people here, and that is not an insult, that is a fact.  

It is a fact, whether an athlete, a veteran, an entertainer, or even a politician says it or disputes it!

[WTF]

Those who kneel and support kneeling feel like they have been cheated by our government and now want to horn in on a ritual designed for dead service men and women. That pisses a lot of people off in a big way. Racism exists. People have bowel movements often. So what???? Is this just another ploy to get out the vote at the next election for the "Progressive" Marxist dictatorship that if successful will then target all minorities and gays for the concentration camps. Be careful what you wish for. This has all played out before in other countries like ours. Those who ignore history will be the fools in the end. The rest of us will be dragged along to the concentration camps along with the true believers. Just got to change our country into something that people living outside our nation want to get away from. Ignorance rules the day because racism exists. We can't allow that. And it won't snow in Michigan this winter. Progressive democrats can stop the snow from falling with just a small sacrifice.

Racism isn't a political issue it's an humanity issue Don.   Humanity is bigger than politics, sporting events and yes even your flag.  BTW racism is ignorance rather you participate in it,  deny it exist or simply choose to do nothing about.

[WTF]

BTW, you NEVER answered my post: Are you demanding people to be politically correct... Yes or No!

A few pieces of information to un-cloud your mind. BTW, stop using the fact that some people of one race may do something wrong to justify others doing it... sick!

2015: Senators John McCain and Jeff Flake released a report revealing that the Department of Defense had spent $6.8 million between 2012 and 2015 on what the senators called "paid patriotism" events before professional sports games, including American flag displays, honoring of military members, reenlistment ceremonies, etc. The DoD justified the money paid to 50 professional sports teams by calling it part of their recruiting strategy. 

Don, do you even know the national anthem? Of course you don't, but it's a racist POS and always has been, and is a political statement. Here's the full racist anthem as it talks about slaves never being free.

Star Spangled Banner 

Oh! say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.
Oh! say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

("Ramparts," in case you don't know, are the protective walls or other elevations that surround a Fort. The first stanza asks a question. The second gives an answer. )

On the shore, dimly seen thro' the mist of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep.
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected, now shines on the stream.
'Tis the star-spangled banner. Oh! long may it wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
("The towering steep" is again, the ramparts. The bombardment has failed, and the British can do nothing more but sail away, their mission a failure. In the third stanza, I feel Key allows himself to gloat over the American triumph. In the aftermath of the bombardment, Key probably was in no mood to act otherwise. During World War II, when the British were our staunchest allies, this third stanza was not sung. However, I know it, so here it is)

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has washed out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave,
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

(The fourth stanza, a pious hope for the future, should be sung more slowly than the other three, and with even deeper feeling. )

Oh! Thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand,
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation,
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the Heav'n - rescued land,
> Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, for our cause is just,
And this be our motto - "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Don is not confused he just rather believe what he believes rather it's the truth or not.  He can bring up all the ills of the black culture he wants but it doesn't excuse racism or deny it's existence not today, tomorrow and the 400 years that came and went.

I started to bring up the Star Spangle Banner but I didn't, 

As a Black Man there are so many things I wish my people didn't do  but I can honestly say that I feel that way about people in general of all races and culture.   I make no excuse for my people but even in all their self-inflicted ills they don't deserve to be treated differently or denied the same freedoms  as the next person.  

I'm going to applaud anyone and everyone that protest against injustice, that fights for the rights an freedom of all Americans.  

I'm a vet as well and it was only back in 1982 when I served and I was still ni**a and boy even though I served this country and even had some hillbilly tell me that the flag wasn't meant for me.   I don't think the US Navy changed that much over the years I'm sure there still plenty of racist ass holes there still so that when Kap doesn't stand I'm not angry.  

I think had the opportunity presented itself they would have killed me, I wasn't worried about the enemy killing me I was more concern that I might accidentally hint, hint fall overboard magically while no one was looking.  I didn't enlist because of the flag I enlist because I couldn't afford college my parents made too much for me to get financial aid and not enough that they could afford to send me it wasn't patriotism its was about survival. What was funny though was that the same dummy that said the flag wasn't for ni**a's couldn't even spell flag SMH.

[Oracle]

BTW, you NEVER answered my post: Are you demanding people to be politically correct... Yes or No!

A few pieces of information to un-cloud your mind. BTW, stop using the fact that some people of one race may do something wrong to justify others doing it... sick!

2015: Senators John McCain and Jeff Flake released a report revealing that the Department of Defense had spent $6.8 million between 2012 and 2015 on what the senators called "paid patriotism" events before professional sports games, including American flag displays, honoring of military members, reenlistment ceremonies, etc. The DoD justified the money paid to 50 professional sports teams by calling it part of their recruiting strategy. 

Don, do you even know the national anthem? Of course you don't, but it's a racist POS and always has been, and is a political statement. Here's the full racist anthem as it talks about slaves never being free.

Star Spangled Banner 

Oh! say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.
Oh! say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

("Ramparts," in case you don't know, are the protective walls or other elevations that surround a Fort. The first stanza asks a question. The second gives an answer. )

On the shore, dimly seen thro' the mist of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep.
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected, now shines on the stream.
'Tis the star-spangled banner. Oh! long may it wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
("The towering steep" is again, the ramparts. The bombardment has failed, and the British can do nothing more but sail away, their mission a failure. In the third stanza, I feel Key allows himself to gloat over the American triumph. In the aftermath of the bombardment, Key probably was in no mood to act otherwise. During World War II, when the British were our staunchest allies, this third stanza was not sung. However, I know it, so here it is)

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has washed out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave,
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

(The fourth stanza, a pious hope for the future, should be sung more slowly than the other three, and with even deeper feeling. )

Oh! Thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand,
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation,
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the Heav'n - rescued land,
> Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, for our cause is just,
And this be our motto - "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

[deusXango]

Politics. An ugly and savage business. Case in point, the explanations given by SVG for the release of Beno Udrih. All the players loved and respected Beno for his professionalism, patience in teaching them, and knowledge of the game. Sounds like the makings of a great coach, doesn't it? Stan Van Gundy went on record stating the obvious, "l think he had some great games for us last year...I don't know what his plans are going forward." The reason given? To lower the payroll. Lower the payroll??!! Ya' gotta be politicking kidding me. Just how far did the Pistons backup from the Luxury Tax line with the release of the most dedicated, hard working (albeit quietly) player on the roster? There is no place for Beno on SVG's staff? WTF is Aaron Grey doing there then? Grey is nowhere as distinguished, as a player, as Udrih and he played exactly how many games for Detroit before being given the cushy coaching job by SVG? What qualified Grey for a coaching position? I guess the same thing that makes Jon Leuer a starter, in SVG's mind.

Stan Van Gundy has removed the voice and influence of Beno Udrih from Pistons practices and their locker-room, much like what Reggie Jackson was trying when he prematurely returned to action, sending Ish Smith to the bench. I now have a growing belief that Udrih would make a more innovative, creative, coaching mind and the team would genuinely rally around him. Ish Smith (who Beno pushed to be a much better shooter and more efficient PG) has proven to a better prospect to start the season as the Pistons PG, but won't because of the politics involved. Waiting, wishing, and hoping doesn't win games, any more than talking sh!t does.

[cool breeze]

Are we really FREE if anyone is able to dictate how it is exercised.  
Is the term FREE, nebulous or absolute.

Which is the greater insult to the flag, kneeling or abridging freedoms of another.

Sadly some would think its the knelling 

You miss the biggest point. Kneeling is a political statement about black oppression that has been forced into mainstream sporting events by political activists who's goal is to divide the USA. Many people see through this nonsense. We don't want to see it at a football game. So we now tune out the NFL. People of all color are done with the NFL. If the NBA stars act the same way pro basketball will slowly implode. For football players who kneel and think they are helping humanity in any way, are mistaken. They are causing division. Of any sport in college or the pros, football players are the worst group when it comes to respecting women or being responsible citizens. U of Arizona has two football players who have been charged with beating up their current or former girl friends. Who does that? There are a lot of smart football players who lead good lives and have high character but they are brought down by the bad apples. How many NFL players have abused women? How many NFL players have a college degree after getting full rides to the best universities in the nation? How many NFL players are responsible citizens and good Fathers? How can those NFL players become better citizens and help this country get on a better path other than just kneeling or marching with Black Lives Matter and chanting " What do we need? More dead cops". How can anyone who has children support that? How many cops are African American? How many African American gang members in Chicago are in danger today because they joined gangs in the first place? Why are the NFL players ignoring the murder going on in Chicago? What in hell are they doing exactly but kneeling and acting like they stand for something. What is this protest exactly? Where do the Asians stand on this kneeling thing? They must be laughing. No the Asians are busting their butts in school and the parents are looking after their kids and trying to be good role models.  They say each day what can I do to be a better person, parent citizen etc. They are not claiming anybody when something goes wrong in their lives or when they are screwed over by some racist. Kneeling is just the latest Progressive democratic political protest. What have any of those leaders done over the past 20 years to stop the growth of criminal gangs that endanger every kid who attends inter city schools? Zero is the answer. Nobody wants to talk about the details so change can take place within the individual. Politicians blame the opposing party whichever party that might be. Followers of the losing party follow right along with their leaders as true believers instead of looking inward to find a way to improve their lives.

We have come a long way since the days of "liberal democrats" like John Kennedy who said "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what can you do for your country". Those deployed servicemen and women think the NFL football players are idiots and the entire league has lost credibility and status because of this attack on American values.

Are the knelling football players pure themselves? They should be more introspective and think what can they do for their own families and friends to help make them better. They should be in the inter city becoming role models for the young kids who have insane irresponsible parents or parent if any adult at all to guide them. Usually they have nobody but a gang member brother to guide them. What has the local school board done in the City of Detroit through the years to make Detroit schools safer for kids instead of ripping off the tax payers for their own personal gain. Has the Nation failed African Americans any more than they have failed poor whites, Hispanics or Asians? Is the Nation responsible for each individual's welfare or the individual themselves? We live in the greatest nation on Earth which is a Constitutional Republic that is based on individual freedom and individual responsibility. This country offers the best chance for upward mobility and that is why so many people want to live here. We are not living in 1850. But to set the record straight, according to the city records in many states before the civil war, there were thousands African American free men who owned rented and sold slaves. Yet some activist groups are pushing for slavery reparations to this day. They have forgotten all the people of all colors who fought to end slavery and died wearing the Union uniform in the Civil War. Like I said before, too many people have too few facts and base everything they do on emotion and what might seem to be the most popular position to take at any given time. Instead of checking out the facts themselves, they listen to others and join groups that all think alike. They are the puppets on the string led by the evil profiteers who want to pit groups against groups and destroy the great "melting pot" known as America. It won't work at least for a few more years but eventually people will know less and less and believe in anything they are told. That is when America will become a Marxist state. The only way a socialist Marxist state that the "Progressive" are fighting hard for will work is when they employ "Rigid Control" on the citizens to force compliance for their game plan. To see how fun live will be under that plan just study what happened to the citizens in Germany and Russia in the 1030s. It was Truman and Kennedy who buried the Progressive democrats but now they are back twice as strong. Liberal democrats believe in the Constitution and Bill of Rights but they have been defeated for the moment. Who knows where the Republicans stand as they fight among themselves.  Progressive democrats want to destroy the constitution. The Constitution was created to protect citizens from their government. The founders who created the Constitution are now under attack as the Progressive democrats attempt to re write history and call them all racist. Unfortunately our State supported universities are stocked with Progressive democrats in every department which is much the same as Germany before Hitler came to power as per Albert Spear "Infiltration". Soon not only NFL football players might be kneeling but all American citizens under the New Order Supreme leader. And everyone will take the cool aide and be happy because nobody will be individually responsible for their own welfare. The leader will tell you how to think while kneeling. Everyone will be forced to attend boring NFL football games that will be politically correct. the cheer leaders will show no skin or wear makeup. They will wear long dull gray baggy pants below their ankles with military style jackets with material covering the neck so as to not provoke lust among the fans who will be told when to cheer. Everyone kneel please. Better get used to it now.

Divide????  

I suppose in 2016 you were perfectly comfortable watching a dinner time broadcast in 1080P of an unarmed black man taking 8 bullets in the back while running from a policeman.  By the way dead dude appeared to be middle age, out of shape, not moving very fast at all, and had only covered about 25 feet before the first shot rang out.  
Made me sick.
Ya gotta draw the line somewhere.  Right is right and there are getting to be too many wrong “protect and serve” types, subject to very little justice.

This is coming from a brother who will not support BLM as long as we’re wiping out our own at a rate 1,000 times greater than the fuzz.  

Which is the greater insult to the flag, kneeling or abridging freedoms of another.  Answer the question.

This gets us back once again to the purpose of standing during the national anthem. Why was this ritual created? It was created to honor the servicemen and women who died to protect American citizens from the actions of foreign governments. It was also supposed to be a symbol of UNITY for all Americans because Americans from all races have died in that effort to protect American citizens. It is just that simple. One group has tried to highjack that symbol of unity. Do you want to be part of the group that has all but destroyed that symbol of unity? Should the transgenders get their licks in too and show everyone that there can be no unity or peace within our country as long as men are not allowed in female bathrooms in some areas of the country? No all I want everyone to know is that this kneeling idea was not something that was not planned by those who are bent on changing America in a big way relating to our system of government. Are we born with rights or does the government give us our rights? I personally do not trust elected officials of any type. Power corrupts. That is a fact. I prefer to believe that God provided me with my freedoms and the Bill of Rights protects me from my government. I believe that everyone should be judged on an individual basis not according to the color of their skin or the group they belong to. If we disrespect the people who serve in our military or change the ritual to the new NFL version, then a small crack appears in the fabric of our belief system.

That shooting made me ill too Lemonpen but what about the Black and White policemen and women who have been ambushed over the past three years throughout this country? Should all the police at the games kneel to bring attention to what pisses them off or should people from all races be able to attend sporting events without looking suspiciously at someone who does not look exactly like us? How many White police officers throughout the nation take hundreds of thousands of calls on domestic violence situations at night and defuse those situations and help avoid bloodshed? But even more important, how did things get to the point where a police officer would gun down that individual you mentioned in the streets at night? As in every occupation from medicine, teaching to law enforcement, there are perhaps 10% bad apples around you on a daily basis. Then put them in a stressful situation especially at night where killing is taking place on a nightly basis and City government controlled by Black leaders do nothing in those neighborhoods to change lives of those living there and one should expect more situations like that happening. Dave Bing tried as hard as anyone to make some changes in the City of Detroit and he found out quickly who controls what. It is not by accident that generations of innocent human beings, White, Black and Hispanic have suffered from the effects of those cities being ruled by highly placed drug kingpins within the City government and school system. All leaders like Al Sharpton do is talk and make money. Now we have generations of families who have been impacted by the effects of the drug trade. Teachers cannot be parents. Kids need better role models because their parents are not good role models if they have parents. Athletes at the high school level on to college and the pros should be their role models along with all of the top students who still attend the dangerous inter city schools. Who are the voters within the City limits of the City of Detroit? What kind of elected officials do they respect and want to make critical decisions? Why can't those elected officials destroy the big gangs that control the city? How can small kids without sane parents not accept a job running drugs when they are hungry? I blame all of the elected officials who have had jobs in the City government in cities like Detroit for not doing a damn thing to drive the bad guys out and create a better environment for all those kids who have no chance in life.

One short story is appropriate here about the police being that you brought it up. I have a friend who I worked with when I was living in the Detroit area. He spent 10 years as a police officer and much of it as a patrolman working nights. He is White and his partner was Black for most of his years of service. The neighborhoods they worked in very very dangerous especially for cops in the 1960s. He never had a good night of sleep unless he was away on vacation and hated to return to duty. When people had heart attacks, no ambulance service was available so police officers had to take those 911 responses. They would take people to the hospital and then go to the service garage and hose out the back seat. then go on a domestic violence call with husband and wife going at each other with knives. He had to quit because he was close to a nervous breakdown as about 50% of the calls he went on involved people he could not identify with as being human because most were strung out on drugs and acting in unpredictable ways. He and his partner quit on the same day both feeling that the City of Detroit had changed big time in the 10 years since they started. Now decades later what do you think is going on at night in the highest crime areas of Detroit and how are the kids living there surviving? And what in hell are the City officials doing to make things better? Status quo is the answer and of course blaming the White man takes the heat off.

I live in Tucson where the White man is in the minority. There is crime for sure with our share of drug problems and the City government is out to lunch just like those who run Detroit. But each day I see people from all different races and most of us all get along well. My wife and I have long time close friends from all races who we feel are like family and none of us accept the kneeling idea. It is a cop out and a fraud. Those football players need to be role models for unity. They should be out every day working hard with young kids in Detroit and I am sure some are doing that. They need to go to the children hospitals too. The football players need to talk to Dave Bing so he can fill them in on which city officials to go after and force them to get off their lazy asses and have some courage in solving big problems. All City officials should be forced to take a polygraph exam every year that they serve the City including police officers. School administrators need to be watched closely and Lion players need to meet with them and see for themselves if those people are the good guys or the bad guys. And NFL football players need to show some interest themselves in education and continuing their own education so they will be able to avoid being manipulated by political hacks. Kneeling at football games is plan stupid. The real work is knowing the details as to how things got this bad in the first place and identifying who is responsible and who should be fired from City government as well as creating new projects to save the children from becoming like their parents.

[lemonpen]

Are we really FREE if anyone is able to dictate how it is exercised.  
Is the term FREE, nebulous or absolute.

Which is the greater insult to the flag, kneeling or abridging freedoms of another.

Sadly some would think its the knelling 

You miss the biggest point. Kneeling is a political statement about black oppression that has been forced into mainstream sporting events by political activists who's goal is to divide the USA. Many people see through this nonsense. We don't want to see it at a football game. So we now tune out the NFL. People of all color are done with the NFL. If the NBA stars act the same way pro basketball will slowly implode. For football players who kneel and think they are helping humanity in any way, are mistaken. They are causing division. Of any sport in college or the pros, football players are the worst group when it comes to respecting women or being responsible citizens. U of Arizona has two football players who have been charged with beating up their current or former girl friends. Who does that? There are a lot of smart football players who lead good lives and have high character but they are brought down by the bad apples. How many NFL players have abused women? How many NFL players have a college degree after getting full rides to the best universities in the nation? How many NFL players are responsible citizens and good Fathers? How can those NFL players become better citizens and help this country get on a better path other than just kneeling or marching with Black Lives Matter and chanting " What do we need? More dead cops". How can anyone who has children support that? How many cops are African American? How many African American gang members in Chicago are in danger today because they joined gangs in the first place? Why are the NFL players ignoring the murder going on in Chicago? What in hell are they doing exactly but kneeling and acting like they stand for something. What is this protest exactly? Where do the Asians stand on this kneeling thing? They must be laughing. No the Asians are busting their butts in school and the parents are looking after their kids and trying to be good role models.  They say each day what can I do to be a better person, parent citizen etc. They are not claiming anybody when something goes wrong in their lives or when they are screwed over by some racist. Kneeling is just the latest Progressive democratic political protest. What have any of those leaders done over the past 20 years to stop the growth of criminal gangs that endanger every kid who attends inter city schools? Zero is the answer. Nobody wants to talk about the details so change can take place within the individual. Politicians blame the opposing party whichever party that might be. Followers of the losing party follow right along with their leaders as true believers instead of looking inward to find a way to improve their lives.

We have come a long way since the days of "liberal democrats" like John Kennedy who said "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what can you do for your country". Those deployed servicemen and women think the NFL football players are idiots and the entire league has lost credibility and status because of this attack on American values.

Are the knelling football players pure themselves? They should be more introspective and think what can they do for their own families and friends to help make them better. They should be in the inter city becoming role models for the young kids who have insane irresponsible parents or parent if any adult at all to guide them. Usually they have nobody but a gang member brother to guide them. What has the local school board done in the City of Detroit through the years to make Detroit schools safer for kids instead of ripping off the tax payers for their own personal gain. Has the Nation failed African Americans any more than they have failed poor whites, Hispanics or Asians? Is the Nation responsible for each individual's welfare or the individual themselves? We live in the greatest nation on Earth which is a Constitutional Republic that is based on individual freedom and individual responsibility. This country offers the best chance for upward mobility and that is why so many people want to live here. We are not living in 1850. But to set the record straight, according to the city records in many states before the civil war, there were thousands African American free men who owned rented and sold slaves. Yet some activist groups are pushing for slavery reparations to this day. They have forgotten all the people of all colors who fought to end slavery and died wearing the Union uniform in the Civil War. Like I said before, too many people have too few facts and base everything they do on emotion and what might seem to be the most popular position to take at any given time. Instead of checking out the facts themselves, they listen to others and join groups that all think alike. They are the puppets on the string led by the evil profiteers who want to pit groups against groups and destroy the great "melting pot" known as America. It won't work at least for a few more years but eventually people will know less and less and believe in anything they are told. That is when America will become a Marxist state. The only way a socialist Marxist state that the "Progressive" are fighting hard for will work is when they employ "Rigid Control" on the citizens to force compliance for their game plan. To see how fun live will be under that plan just study what happened to the citizens in Germany and Russia in the 1030s. It was Truman and Kennedy who buried the Progressive democrats but now they are back twice as strong. Liberal democrats believe in the Constitution and Bill of Rights but they have been defeated for the moment. Who knows where the Republicans stand as they fight among themselves.  Progressive democrats want to destroy the constitution. The Constitution was created to protect citizens from their government. The founders who created the Constitution are now under attack as the Progressive democrats attempt to re write history and call them all racist. Unfortunately our State supported universities are stocked with Progressive democrats in every department which is much the same as Germany before Hitler came to power as per Albert Spear "Infiltration". Soon not only NFL football players might be kneeling but all American citizens under the New Order Supreme leader. And everyone will take the cool aide and be happy because nobody will be individually responsible for their own welfare. The leader will tell you how to think while kneeling. Everyone will be forced to attend boring NFL football games that will be politically correct. the cheer leaders will show no skin or wear makeup. They will wear long dull gray baggy pants below their ankles with military style jackets with material covering the neck so as to not provoke lust among the fans who will be told when to cheer. Everyone kneel please. Better get used to it now.

Divide????

I suppose in 2016 you were perfectly comfortable watching a dinner time broadcast in 1080P of an unarmed black man taking 8 bullets in the back while running from a policeman. By the way dead dude appeared to be middle age, out of shape, not moving very fast at all, and had only covered about 25 feet before the first shot rang out.
Made me sick.
Ya gotta draw the line somewhere. Right is right and there are getting to be too many wrong “protect and serve” types, subject to very little justice.

This is coming from a brother who will not support BLM as long as we’re wiping out our own at a rate 1,000 times greater than the fuzz.

Which is the greater insult to the flag, kneeling or abridging freedoms of another. Answer the question.

[cool breeze]

Keep politics out of sports otherwise the entire thing will be ruined.

Which is why it's the NFL that is the cause of this problem!

The National Anthem has nothing to do with football, and if you have to pay someone to observe it, it's even more stupid.

Since the NFL injected politics into sports, the responsibility is theirs, the protests are valid and make sense.

The NFL could have stopped the protests immediately by saying they would throw their weight behind truth, justice and the American way. But money always gets in the way.

Besides, I'm sure you aren't asking them to be POLITICALLY correct are you?

Exactly Oracle it always comes back to the money and it will forever be about the money.  Sad that we can accept this as some time of norm and continue to move on in our lives without protesting the evil that it festers.

Don IJMO but I think you're a little sensitive about this subject maybe because you're a veteran yourself, but so I'm I and I find nothing disrespectful about the knelling or the protesting of the flag simply because it does mean and represent many things to many people.  Not only does it represents falling soldiers that fought wars it also represents freedom and equality that many American aren't privy  too.   

You say you don't want politics in sport then they should stop playing the anthem at sporting events periods because the song itself represent politics and bring about political opinions, and thoughts.  They only thing that should be honored at sporting events are the players on the fields and courts that fans are paying to see.   

Now I'm not mad at players and media figures that are bringing attention to social matters so kudos to Kap and Jamelle in doing so.  Both the NFL and ESPN are powerful entities with a large enough platform to bring America people the truth but chooses not to so shame on them.   But they're both choosing to punish both Colin and Jamelle out of fear of losing money.  

Don ignore it all you wish but there's no conspiracy behind racism, there no special interest group pushing it as a lie because its real and it's been real for a very long time.  It's live and visible in our faces on a daily and some people are okay with it and rather it not be brought up at all largely because its a truth that America would rather not deal with.   In not addressing it the NFL, ESPN, the government all sends a signal that racism is okay.

So should we all kneel now when we go to the movies because this vague idea that racism is lurking out there in our everyday lives. I have only been personally attacked twice in my life and wrote those situations off as just being in an unfortunate situation while dealing with an ass hole. Most of my interactions with the police have been really good. Only one time did I get a weird vibe from a cop and that was a State Police cop who I identified as one of the bad guys in life and didn't provoke him and make things worse. However, I recall scouting a high school State Tournament basketball game at the U of D and was confronted with two Black gang members after parking my car and thought I was dead meat. Who is talking about the violent gangs that have taken over the country? Why the police? Who is calling the shots as to what we should be protesting and where the protects should take place? Don't any of you feel like you are being manipulated? Has our country really let us down? Have the police let us all down? And how did kneeling come into play when we are supposed to be honoring service men and women who died to protect out way of life? The bottom line is that NFL players have pissed off a lot of people who love our country and love those service men and women who paid the altimate sacrifice. Bringing in the concept of racism into football could only have been created by a foreign government bent on creating a big divide in the American spirit. I myself feel that I am damn lucky to be an American.

Those who kneel and support kneeling feel like they have been cheated by our government and now want to horn in on a ritual designed for dead service men and women. That pisses a lot of people off in a big way. Racism exists. People have bowel movements often. So what???? Is this just another ploy to get out the vote at the next election for the "Progressive" Marxist dictatorship that if successful will then target all minorities and gays for the concentration camps. Be careful what you wish for. This has all played out before in other countries like ours. Those who ignore history will be the fools in the end. The rest of us will be dragged along to the concentration camps along with the true believers. Just got to change our country into something that people living outside our nation want to get away from. Ignorance rules the day because racism exists. We can't allow that. And it won't snow in Michigan this winter. Progressive democrats can stop the snow from falling with just a small sacrifice.

[cool breeze]

Are we really FREE if anyone is able to dictate how it is exercised.  
Is the term FREE, nebulous or absolute.

Which is the greater insult to the flag, kneeling or abridging freedoms of another.

Sadly some would think its the knelling 

You miss the biggest point. Kneeling is a political statement about black oppression that has been forced into mainstream sporting events by political activists who's goal is to divide the USA. Many people see through this nonsense. We don't want to see it at a football game. So we now tune out the NFL. People of all color are done with the NFL. If the NBA stars act the same way pro basketball will slowly implode. For football players who kneel and think they are helping humanity in any way, are mistaken. They are causing division. Of any sport in college or the pros, football players are the worst group when it comes to respecting women or being responsible citizens. U of Arizona has two football players who have been charged with beating up their current or former girl friends. Who does that? There are a lot of smart football players who lead good lives and have high character but they are brought down by the bad apples. How many NFL players have abused women? How many NFL players have a college degree after getting full rides to the best universities in the nation? How many NFL players are responsible citizens and good Fathers? How can those NFL players become better citizens and help this country get on a better path other than just kneeling or marching with Black Lives Matter and chanting " What do we need? More dead cops". How can anyone who has children support that? How many cops are African American? How many African American gang members in Chicago are in danger today because they joined gangs in the first place? Why are the NFL players ignoring the murder going on in Chicago? What in hell are they doing exactly but kneeling and acting like they stand for something. What is this protest exactly? Where do the Asians stand on this kneeling thing? They must be laughing. No the Asians are busting their butts in school and the parents are looking after their kids and trying to be good role models. They say each day what can I do to be a better person, parent citizen etc. They are not claiming anybody when something goes wrong in their lives or when they are screwed over by some racist. Kneeling is just the latest Progressive democratic political protest. What have any of those leaders done over the past 20 years to stop the growth of criminal gangs that endanger every kid who attends inter city schools? Zero is the answer. Nobody wants to talk about the details so change can take place within the individual. Politicians blame the opposing party whichever party that might be. Followers of the losing party follow right along with their leaders as true believers instead of looking inward to find a way to improve their lives.

We have come a long way since the days of "liberal democrats" like John Kennedy who said "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what can you do for your country". Those deployed servicemen and women think the NFL football players are idiots and the entire league has lost credibility and status because of this attack on American values.

Are the knelling football players pure themselves? They should be more introspective and think what can they do for their own families and friends to help make them better. They should be in the inter city becoming role models for the young kids who have insane irresponsible parents or parent if any adult at all to guide them. Usually they have nobody but a gang member brother to guide them. What has the local school board done in the City of Detroit through the years to make Detroit schools safer for kids instead of ripping off the tax payers for their own personal gain. Has the Nation failed African Americans any more than they have failed poor whites, Hispanics or Asians? Is the Nation responsible for each individual's welfare or the individual themselves? We live in the greatest nation on Earth which is a Constitutional Republic that is based on individual freedom and individual responsibility. This country offers the best chance for upward mobility and that is why so many people want to live here. We are not living in 1850. But to set the record straight, according to the city records in many states before the civil war, there were thousands African American free men who owned rented and sold slaves. Yet some activist groups are pushing for slavery reparations to this day. They have forgotten all the people of all colors who fought to end slavery and died wearing the Union uniform in the Civil War. Like I said before, too many people have too few facts and base everything they do on emotion and what might seem to be the most popular position to take at any given time. Instead of checking out the facts themselves, they listen to others and join groups that all think alike. They are the puppets on the string led by the evil profiteers who want to pit groups against groups and destroy the great "melting pot" known as America. It won't work at least for a few more years but eventually people will know less and less and believe in anything they are told. That is when America will become a Marxist state. The only way a socialist Marxist state that the "Progressive" are fighting hard for will work is when they employ "Rigid Control" on the citizens to force compliance for their game plan. To see how fun live will be under that plan just study what happened to the citizens in Germany and Russia in the 1030s. It was Truman and Kennedy who buried the Progressive democrats but now they are back twice as strong. Liberal democrats believe in the Constitution and Bill of Rights but they have been defeated for the moment. Who knows where the Republicans stand as they fight among themselves. Progressive democrats want to destroy the constitution. The Constitution was created to protect citizens from their government. The founders who created the Constitution are now under attack as the Progressive democrats attempt to re write history and call them all racist. Unfortunately our State supported universities are stocked with Progressive democrats in every department which is much the same as Germany before Hitler came to power as per Albert Spear "Infiltration". Soon not only NFL football players might be kneeling but all American citizens under the New Order Supreme leader. And everyone will take the cool aide and be happy because nobody will be individually responsible for their own welfare. The leader will tell you how to think while kneeling. Everyone will be forced to attend boring NFL football games that will be politically correct. the cheer leaders will show no skin or wear makeup. They will wear long dull gray baggy pants below their ankles with military style jackets with material covering the neck so as to not provoke lust among the fans who will be told when to cheer. Everyone kneel please. Better get used to it now.

[Sparma]

At CBS Sports, ten NBA analysts make predictions about six categories: MVP, ROY, DPOY, 6POY, CoachofY, ExecofY.

Not a one Piston on the board of candidates?! Bradley's told us he's aspiring to DPOY.

Do any of you think a Piston is the most likely NBA-er to win one of these six awards? I don't.

I might put Bradley in my top 10 most likely DPOY candidates, but that's a different story. Maybe Kennard in top 10 as potential ROY? I'd think so (but then he was picked at #12, so that's not a great leap).

[WTF]

Are we really FREE if anyone is able to dictate how it is exercised.  
Is the term FREE, nebulous or absolute.

Which is the greater insult to the flag, kneeling or abridging freedoms of another.

Sadly some would think its the knelling 

[WTF]

Yeah I'm still drinking the Lions Kool Aid never made perfectly too much sugar, not enough sugar at times no sugar at all.   Yeah 2 so so games out Stafford and the masses are moaning about 135 million but not I.  No QB should be required to throw 52 passes for a lack of a run game so 3 picks and 2 ran back for scores definitely ugly but that crap happens to the best of QB's.

The Lions are still 3-3 in 2nd place in the division and not totally dead just yet being only 6 games in.  I'm still confident especially with Rogers lost possibly for the season in GB.

Also not down on My Wolverines I didn't think they would go undefeated losing to MSU sucked!!! but they can cure any ills by making sure they beat OSU.  

GO LIONS GO BLUE

[lemonpen]

Until proven otherwise I believe Stan will ride with Weggie and our gallop to the finish line will fall short.

W39 - L43

[WTF]

Keep politics out of sports otherwise the entire thing will be ruined.

Which is why it's the NFL that is the cause of this problem!

The National Anthem has nothing to do with football, and if you have to pay someone to observe it, it's even more stupid.

Since the NFL injected politics into sports, the responsibility is theirs, the protests are valid and make sense.

The NFL could have stopped the protests immediately by saying they would throw their weight behind truth, justice and the American way. But money always gets in the way.

Besides, I'm sure you aren't asking them to be POLITICALLY correct are you?

Exactly Oracle it always comes back to the money and it will forever be about the money.  Sad that we can accept this as some time of norm and continue to move on in our lives without protesting the evil that it festers.

Don IJMO but I think you're a little sensitive about this subject maybe because you're a veteran yourself, but so I'm I and I find nothing disrespectful about the knelling or the protesting of the flag simply because it does mean and represent many things to many people.  Not only does it represents falling soldiers that fought wars it also represents freedom and equality that many American aren't privy  too.   

You say you don't want politics in sport then they should stop playing the anthem at sporting events periods because the song itself represent politics and bring about political opinions, and thoughts.  They only thing that should be honored at sporting events are the players on the fields and courts that fans are paying to see.   

Now I'm not mad at players and media figures that are bringing attention to social matters so kudos to Kap and Jamelle in doing so.  Both the NFL and ESPN are powerful entities with a large enough platform to bring America people the truth but chooses not to so shame on them.   But they're both choosing to punish both Colin and Jamelle out of fear of losing money.  

Don ignore it all you wish but there's no conspiracy behind racism, there no special interest group pushing it as a lie because its real and it's been real for a very long time.  It's live and visible in our faces on a daily and some people are okay with it and rather it not be brought up at all largely because its a truth that America would rather not deal with.   In not addressing it the NFL, ESPN, the government all sends a signal that racism is okay.

[lemonpen]

Are we really FREE if anyone is able to dictate how it is exercised.  
Is the term FREE, nebulous or absolute.

Which is the greater insult to the flag, kneeling or abridging freedoms of another.

[Sponsored content]