Sparma

[Oracle]

Another exciting game.  Again, Jennings played a game of which Isiah would have been proud.  He's been amazing during this 11 game stretch.  Even before he went off yesterday, Mayo said he's a strong candidate for Player of the Week.  He's been playing at All Star level.  If he played an entire career at this level, he'd be a Hall of Famer.  

BUT: I still want to see him playing off the bench (or traded) as soon as that's a realistic option.

Early in this streak, there were shades of San Antonio, with the ball moving extremely well.  Later, it became the Jennings show.  He can't/ won't keep it up.  We need to go back to the early post-JS way of playing.

Brandon's a good shooter, not a great shooter.  I'm happy to hear he like to get the arena hours early, where he gets plenty of shooting practice.

In one of the best games of his career, he shot 10-23.   He shot an astounding 8-13 from 3.  That also means though, he shot 2-10 from the rest of the field.  Ordinarily, he'd shoot better from closer, worse from 3.  A great, great, game but not the kind of performance you can depend on.  We need to play team ball.

You need an outstanding bench.  The starters need to play team ball, unless you have a superstar guard (Westbrook, maybe?, Harden, maybe?) who consistently delivers superstar performances.  Jennings's not that guy, and I'm not even sure Westbrook and Harden warrant a ball hogging style.  Augustin is closer to playing the right way, but isn't quite good enough to justify being a starter.  Dinwiddie may become the guy, but he's not there yet.

So, ride the hot hand in Jennings, but be aware that being so Jennings-centric won't cut it in the long run.  In the long run, I see him as a superb, Microwave, contributor off the bench.

I feel the same way, and have been shocked that the press and even some fellow posters think that this is a good thing! We're entirely too Jennings centric, and you can tell by the trash talking he's doing that he'll become unstable soon if SVG doesn't get more people involved!

And yes, I did advocate Brandon Knight coming off the bench, with the opportunity to start if he earned it.  Knight's playing a ton of minutes now, is getting every opportunity, and has regressed to a mediocre 1.5 to 1 assists to TOs ratios.  His assists are his best by a tick: 5.1 after 4.9.  But his TO average is easily the worst it's been in his career (3.4 after 2.6, 2.7, and 2.6).   That's a really bad average.  I still think that limiting his role, getting him opportunities to grow as a facilitator is the way to go.  At this point that might mean starting, but playing fewer minutes and putting the ball into the hands of a pure passer more often.  That's not intended as an insult, but just as a way to practice the principle that the strengths of players need to be highlighted, while their weaknesses need to be disguised.

Knight is a different question, and a little harder to draw conclusions about! Your analysis would also have had Russell Westbrook coming off the bench, but he just accomplished something few other players have, and most of them are all time greats! Delivering a triple double greater than 15 across the board!

It's not that I disagree with your analysis, I just have 2 problems with it! One, we're talking about a winning playoff team designed to get different things from their PG, and two, drawing conclusions about players way too early in their career! Making the analysis is fine, it's just treating that as the final arbitrator is way beyond the pale, IMO.

Having said that, I do believe in using PT and the bench to motivate behavior! I also thought Knight needed to come off the bench in an effort to force him to improve portions of his game. Gifting PT can be both blessing and curse depending on the players personality, and I thought Knight could withstand the ego blow and come back stronger.

As applied to Jennings, that means using him differently in the long run than in the past few games, even though his very recent performance may earn him NBA player of the week.

I'm confident that SVG will steer things in the right direction, finding a sustainable way of playing Jennings, or trading him for what would be a good return at this point.

Jennings is like Singler to me, in that I don't favor trading either of them, just using them differently! Jennings is still a young player, and while he's gotten better, he needs a lot more seasoning, but at least you can see that it's possible to get there!

Singler NEEDS to come off the bench and earn a starting position. Coaches love him, but for all the wrong reasons! Do you want a good looking chick, or do you want an ugly one that follows orders!

Singler is ugly as a starter, but he follows orders. In this league, that just isn't enough to be a starter, a good backup, yeah!

Jennings is a starter for a lot of teams at this point, but could be a great backup as well, his development will tell that story!

[Sparma]

Thanks!

And I agree with you that Datome needs to be given a real opportunity. There seems to be little dispute but that he's the best shooter on the team, in practice at least. I'm guessing coaches' unwillingness to use him comes from there not being a neat fit for him: he'd get bullied at PF and may not have the athleticism to keep up with SFs. But from the little I've seen him in action he looks like a scrappy defender and a willing passer. Even if he turns out to be one dimensional that dimension is worth finding 10-15 minutes for. I'm not bothered by poor shooting in tiny NBA opportunities. What would do him in is if he's not able to get his shot off against NBA opposition. But we'd need to find out if that were the case by giving him some minutes. I've recorded his GR game, but haven't watched yet; sounds like he got off to a solid start.

[deusXango]

Sparma, those were some great points and I loved the way you categorically broke down the potential danger facing the team in the long run; "Early in this streak, there were shades of San Antonio, with the ball moving extremely well. Later, it became the Jennings show. He can't/ won't keep it up. We need to go back to the early post-JS way of playing." This is a too true statement for those who've been watching.

"In one of the best games of his career, he shot 10-23. He shot an astounding 8-13 from 3. That also means though, he shot 2-10 from the rest of the field. Ordinarily, he'd shoot better from closer, worse from 3. A great, great, game but not the kind of performance you can depend on. We need to play team ball.

You need an outstanding bench. The starters need to play team ball, unless you have a superstar guard (Westbrook, maybe?, Harden, maybe?) who consistently delivers superstar performances. Jennings's not that guy, and I'm not even sure Westbrook and Harden warrant a ball hogging style." As long as there are different players stepping up each game, the shortcomings of our major players can be successfully disguised as you pointed out, but is this playoff basketball?

Great post Sparma!

[deusXango]

Sebastian, I saw your boy Rodney Norvell Stuckey last night and he looked good, doing what he always has, but he's playing on a veteran's minimum contract, while the player we dumped to make him our star attraction, Arron Afflalo is becoming more and more valuable each day.

Arron Afflalo To Miami:
Miami Gets: Arron Afflalo
Denver Gets: Mario Chalmers, Norris Cole, Udonis Haslem, Second Round Pick
This is 1 of 5 trade proposals that'd make sense to the national basketball writers.

Wow! The only thing more more heart wrenching than a gigantic miscalculation is being blindly mislead.

[Sparma]

Another exciting game.  Again, Jennings played a game of which Isiah would have been proud.  He's been amazing during this 11 game stretch.  Even before he went off yesterday, Mayo said he's a strong candidate for Player of the Week.  He's been playing at All Star level.  If he played an entire career at this level, he'd be a Hall of Famer.  

BUT: I still want to see him playing off the bench (or traded) as soon as that's a realistic option.

Edit: Starting him, but limiting his minutes according to performance and effect on the team would be another sensible way to go. Maybe that's just what SVG's doing, with Jennings' minutes still being below 30 minutes per game (eg well below BK"s). I hope what SVG's doing is giving him superstar ball access while he's playing like a superstar, being on the ready to dial down minutes and usage once the inevitable Jennings downturn comes.

Early in this streak, there were shades of San Antonio, with the ball moving extremely well.  Later, it became the Jennings show.  He can't/ won't keep it up.  We need to go back to the early post-JS way of playing.

Brandon's a good shooter, not a great shooter.  I'm happy to hear he like to get the arena hours early, where he gets plenty of shooting practice.

In one of the best games of his career, he shot 10-23.   He shot an astounding 8-13 from 3.  That also means though, he shot 2-10 from the rest of the field.  Ordinarily, he'd shoot better from closer, worse from 3.  A great, great, game but not the kind of performance you can depend on.  We need to play team ball.

You need an outstanding bench.  The starters need to play team ball, unless you have a superstar guard (Westbrook, maybe?, Harden, maybe?) who consistently delivers superstar performances.  Jennings's not that guy, and I'm not even sure Westbrook and Harden warrant a ball hogging style.  Augustin is closer to playing the right way, but isn't quite good enough to justify being a starter.  Dinwiddie may become the guy, but he's not there yet.

So, ride the hot hand in Jennings, but be aware that being so Jennings-centric won't cut it in the long run.  In the long run, I see him as a superb, Microwave, contributor off the bench.

And yes, I did advocate Brandon Knight coming off the bench, with the opportunity to start if he earned it.  Knight's playing a ton of minutes now, is getting every opportunity, and has regressed to a mediocre 1.5 to 1 assists to TOs ratios.  His assists are his best by a tick: 5.1 after 4.9.  But his TO average is easily the worst it's been in his career (3.4 after 2.6, 2.7, and 2.6).   That's a really bad average.  I still think that limiting his role, getting him opportunities to grow as a facilitator is the way to go.  At this point that might mean starting, but playing fewer minutes and putting the ball into the hands of a pure passer more often.  That's not intended as an insult, but just as a way to practice the principle that the strengths of players need to be highlighted, while their weaknesses need to be disguised.

As applied to Jennings, that means using him differently in the long run than in the past few games, even though his very recent performance may earn him NBA player of the week.

I'm confident that SVG will steer things in the right direction, finding a sustainable way of playing Jennings, or trading him for what would be a good return at this point.

[deusXango]

Holy sh!t, dudes in the stands are scoring better than these guys!!!

Collectively in 48 minutes they combined for 4pts and 6rebs and these guys didn't even have Paul George to contend with.  Some cat name Rudez was kicking on their ass last night and he managed 13pt in 16 minutes

With a combined performance like that we still don't want to see the unseen Datome, or bring in Quincy Miller for a 10 day audition? Surely you've got to know that either one of those guys could've been replaced by Datome or Miller and that replacement would've yielded better results. Just sayin'.

I don't care to hear that sh!t about defense because you all know my position on forwards playing more than 20 minutes and gathering 4 rebounds or less; those are loose balls!

This reminds me of Rick Carlisle's stubborn insistence on starting Michael Curry (2 points off a left handed dunk, 0 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals, and 5 fouls in 10 minutes) over Tayshaun Prince (too slow, too skinny, and that's all the fans saw) until the "rubber hit the road" and in a thumbing his nose at Will Robinson move, he played Prince for extended, quality minutes; the rest is history! Prince never made an All-Star team, but the other 4 starters did and that's my definition of a "glue guy."

[deusXango]

Nuff Said!!!

I'm willing to bet that Don has some logical explanation again why this happened.  I'm sure it was SVG fault or Jennings, or it was the after affects and residue left in the locker room by Josh, or he's the victim of coaches ghost past.

RIGHT Don!

He didn't get his touches, but did you catch those dirty looks he was throwing around on defense?

[WTF]

Holy sh!t, dudes in the stands are scoring better than these guys!!!

Collectively in 48 minutes they combined for 4pts and 6rebs and these guys didn't even have Paul George to contend with. Some cat name Rudez was kicking on their ass last night and he managed 13pt in 16 minutes

[WTF]

Nuff Said!!!

I'm willing to bet that Don has some logical explanation again why this happened. I'm sure it was SVG fault or Jennings, or it was the after affects and residue left in the locker room by Josh, or he's the victim of coaches ghost past.

RIGHT Don!

[WTF]

Of course they're reading your stuff, where else can you get laughs like that from a guy that thought Josh smith was an answer! I concluded no such thing

If Josh is the answer, I'm scared to know what the question is! Only you and the rest of the poster her thought Josh was suppose to be an answer, I thought of him as only a piece of a puzzle and would still rather have Josh over the majority players. Hell I would rather see Josh jacking up 3's than watch Singler, Butler, Datome and whom ever trying to collectively manage 5 pts a game.

Wrong about Josh, wrong about Monroe, wrong about Knight, wrong about Burke, just plain wrong! Please explain

It's a freaking comedy act, so keep it up! Next act coming real soon

And after building Burke up so big, you've got the nerve to complain about Don... Yikes!!!

At least Burke has more of a ceiling and I would still take him over the majority of our current roster. Don rah rahing of Singler makes no sense

Making up stuff again

[FlyDog]

Wise, I get what you're saying.......but you must have patience, grasshopper.  Pretty pathetic night from our SF crew.  I'm afraid we'll probably have to wait until next year to upgrade there.

Looks like Drummond came up huge.  Pistons are becoming kings of the road!  The roster may not be fixed yet, but the culture and attitude appears to be on the mend.

[Phil-Good]

WOW! Not only did the kid take the win from the Pacers but he play A all around great game. This is the first time I have not seen the kid force anything. He made the right pass, he made the right play and he hit the big shots.


Props to Jennings because I did not believe in this kid at all.


Now when I watch Pistons games, I'm on the edge of my seat again. That God Pistons basketball is back.

Another amazing game to watch tonight. Very exciting and entertaining.

[deusXango]

Augustin and Jennings certainly isn't the next Chauncey or Zeke hell they're not even Hunter.
I'm sorry Wise, but I was never a Hunter fan, not from the time Don Chaney decided to start him over an unhurt Isiah Thomas, but with that being said, I feel Jennings is a better player; he understands the game better than Hunter, but is not the gifted defender Hunter was.

Are you all getting my point here?  Stop acting as if this current group is all that and a bag of chips.  I hear people bash the Teal Years like it was the plague but this current group would get their ass handed to them if they played those Teal Year team.  I'm not saying I hate all the players on this team but i'll be damned if I'll go on as many of you all do like they breaking down barriers and kicking asses and taking names. Screw a Kyle Singler, Datome when I have witness the greatness of Rodman, screw Jennings when I have seen to of the greatest backcourts tandems on the floor of the Palace.
A Dennis Rodman is not walking through the door for any team; he was a singular, unique talent that the game hasn't seen since his departure from the floor. Like it or not, Jennings has been orchestrating the wins we've experienced in our turnaround. As far as Singler and Datome goes, we have both of them on our roster right now!!! Now if a choice is to be made, the stats supplied by Oracle shows the worth of Singler/Butler and builds a case for Datome at least getting a look!
Singler: 2 points, 2 rebounds
Butler: 2 points, 4 rebounds
Who in the NBA couldn't produce a better performance than that?! Singler had one decent game out of 30 and you call Monroe inconsistent.

[deusXango]

I'm tired of the word potential being attached to every player. I do understand that every player at some point have potential to be better but for the life of me I can understand why our player seem to start the potential ascend from below bottom.  Can we ever get players that are already pretty damn good and go from there.
Preach brother, preach! You've spoken my feelings better than I could; how in the hell did we come to this state of such low ass expectations?

I'm tire of role players and not that role players aren't of great value we just don't need 13 of the 15 man roster to be role players.  We should be arguing that all 5 of our starters should be making an All Team and not guessing if they should even be starting.  You all remember this starting line up? Joe, Zeke, Rodman, Lamb and Mahorn,  or how about this one Chauncey Rip, Prince, Sheed and Big Ben. Have our standards dip so freaking low that we argue about pieces of sh!t like Singler and Datome.  I just mentioned 10 starters from 2 different championship teams and 8 of them were multiple All-Stars and we could argue that at some point the other 2 could have been.  Hell 3 of them are already HOF'ers  but here we are debating these current turds like they're anyone of the 10 champions players.
SVG is straightening out the mess Dumars left behind by serving up the same soup, out of a different bowl. I'm waiting on this off-season to see what he does with a first round pick and in FA signings before passing final judgment on him.  

The freaking role players from those team, I mean the second units would whip this current roster ass 9 out of 10 times.  Microwave, Memo, Corliss, Salley, Buhda, James, Edwards, Hunter, Long,  and so on.  I mean really can I at least have a Corliss, Memo, Vinny and Salley coming of my bench and then argue if they should start or not.
Wise, we're light years away from that, as things stand now, but Febuary 14th should tell us something. I'm tired of "standing pat" at the trade deadline also.  

Potential sucks with exception of Big Ben and Chauncey no other player had to wait beyond 2 years to realize their potential.  We got players 5 years in and still playing like they haven't learned a damn thing since being drafted.
Now who could you possibly be talking about?

[Oracle]

Holy sh!t, dudes in the stands are scoring better than these guys!!!

[Oracle]

Nuff Said!!!

[Oracle]

Holy Crap!!!

Dre pulls Jennings stank stuff out of the fire for the win!!!!

[Oracle]

He's acting like he's our one go to guy, and even when the shot isn't there, he takes his silly off balance shot!!!

I hope we win this one!!!

[Oracle]

Of course they're reading your stuff, where else can you get laughs like that from a guy that thought Josh smith was an answer!

If Josh is the answer, I'm scared to know what the question is!

Wrong about Josh, wrong about Monroe, wrong about Knight, wrong about Burke, just plain wrong!

It's a freaking comedy act, so keep it up!

And after building Burke up so big, you've got the nerve to complain about Don... Yikes!!!

[WTF]

I hope to hell players read what I write and if the pussy can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen. Cool, fans aren't here to kiss players asses whom make millions of dollars to perform at the highest of levels at their craft. I'm certainly not trying to kiss the ass of sub-par role players either but no one is knocking the recent success of the team but understanding where this franchise has been and all it's accomplishment in its great history I'm not in the least overly impressed by a 6 game win streak.

I'm certainly not excited about many of the scrubs players posing as professional when we seen some of the greatest players in the league play for this team. Some of you go on like Kyle is the next Rodman, Hill, or Prince. Moose isn't the next Lanier or Laimbeer, KCP isn't the next Dumars, Houston, Long or Hamilton, and Augustin and Jennings certainly isn't the next Chauncey or Zeke hell they're not even Hunter.

Are you all getting my point here? Stop acting as if this current group is all that and a bag of chips. I hear people bash the Teal Years like it was the plague but this current group would get their ass handed to them if they played those Teal Year team. I'm not saying I hate all the players on this team but i'll be damned if I'll go on as many of you all do like they breaking down barriers and kicking asses and taking names. Screw a Kyle Singler, Datome when I have witness the greatness of Rodman, screw Jennings when I have seen to of the greatest backcourts tandems on the floor of the Palace.

I don't care how hard they're trying I want some freaking talent and heart on the floor game in and game out.

[Oracle]

[cool breeze]

[quote="WISEFAN"]I'm tired of the word potential being attached to every player. I do understand that every player at some point have potential to be better but for the life of me I can understand why our player seem to start the potential ascend from below bottom.  Can we ever get players that are already pretty damn good and go from there.

I'm tire of role players and not that role players aren't of great value we just don't need 13 of the 15 man roster to be role players.  We should be arguing that all 5 of our starters should be making an All Team and not guessing if they should even be starting.  You all remember this starting line up? Joe, Zeke, Rodman, Lamb and Mahorn,  or how about this one Chauncey Rip, Prince, Sheed and Big Ben. Have our standards dip so freaking low that we argue about pieces of sh!t like Singler and Datome.  I just mentioned 10 starters from 2 different championship teams and 8 of them were multiple All-Stars and we could argue that at some point the other 2 could have been.  Hell 3 of them are already HOF'ers  but here we are debating these current turds like they're anyone of the 10 champions players.  

The freaking role players from those team, I mean the second units would whip this current roster ass 9 out of 10 times.  Microwave, Memo, Corliss, Salley, Buhda, James, Edwards, Hunter, Long,  and so on.  I mean really can I at least have a Corliss, Memo, Vinny and Salley coming of my bench and then argue if they should start or not.  

Potential sucks with exception of Big Ben and Chauncey no other player had to wait beyond 2 years to realize their potential.  We got players 5 years in and still playing like they haven't learned a damn thing since being drafted.  

WISE we have had first tier type players on our roster several times but it seems fans have a short memory. Remember when few fans thought Affalo was of any use to this team but everyone thought Stuckey was a for sure gem? Or perhaps fans have forgotten that Amir Johnson was once on our team but Joe Dumars thought the Pistons had waited long enough for him to develop so why not stick with the sure thing with the popular but short Jason Maxiell? Fans evaluation of former Piston players hit the lowest point in Piston history with all the nasty talk about Brandon Knight on this forum. For many fans if only the Pistons had a real point guard we could be winners again. Yet the team had Jason Maxiell as the starting power forward playing with an inexperienced Moose so no pick and roll plays could be developed. Even after Calderon was brought in and played no better than Knight at point guard, fans still insisted that Knight was a total waste of a number one draft pick. I fought for Brandon Knight on this forum trying to use logic and reason but Piston fans knew better and said Knight will never be a point guard and he is too small to every become a good shooting guard. Knight should be traded or become a role player coming off the bench right? I have found that fans are basically out of touch with reality most of the time. We lost Knight perhaps because Joe Dumars heard about the massive complaints about Knight being a failure. Yet Brandon had all the signs of becoming an elite player in the NBA while he improved every year as a 19 year old kid coming into the NBA who was highly intelligent and one of the hardest workers in the off season of anyone who has ever put on a uniform. "Have you watched Brandon knight lately?" That is what the Bucks fans are laughing about relating to Piston fans. Had Knight played against the Pelicans with the Pistons on Wed, their point guard would have not been able to do anything he wanted against the weak defensive minded Piston point guards. Knight is an elite defender and now has the entire package. Fans blew it and Joe Dumars blew it. Players who were on the team with Knight when he was a Piston loved and respected him.

Every Piston fan has a right to voice their opinion about bringing their favored players to this team. I respect that and sometimes the ideas are interesting. But I believe that there would be no chance in hell that Stan Van Gundy would have traded Brandon Knight and Middleton if he had been President and head coach at the time. In fact I can't think of anyone who would have done that with the exception of the many fans on this forum who were celebrating the departure of Brandon Knight.

Fans have some impact on Piston basketball. Fans can say that they are pulling for good things to happen to our players or they can write crap about how they can't wait for certain players to be gone. I am guilty of that with Charlie V. But with young players who are trying hard to improve, fans can be a CHEMISTRY KILLER FOR THE TEAM. Players read the stuff you write and you can bet that this has an impact on how they feel about their future as a Piston. The most talented player might want to move on when their contract expires because they dislike the fan base. And who in hell can blame them?

Our current team has looked real good since Smith left with the exception of the last game which was the 4th game in 6 nights. But fans are mad as hell and they won't take it anymore. Somehow I believe that no Piston fan has one tenth the ability to put a winning team together as Stan Van Gundy who's staff is covering every base to build a future winner. We are just fans not basketball experts hired to do a real job in basketball. Let Stan surprise us while we sit back and pull for our current players to be successful PLEASE!

[WTF]

Gerald Green is a great stop-gap idea for this team.  I think he would be perfect.  For now.  I always liked how he played.

Fly, I haven't heard anything about Wallace lately, other than his huge contract talk, so I honestly don't know what's up with him currently, but the Gerald Wallace of a few years ago was a monster; if we could get that Wallace for the remainder of this season, I'd be okay with it.

DX, that's exactly the trade I suggested in a sign and trade Green, 1st rounder and Wallace for Moose.  I liked Green and Wallace had an expiring contract and I think we could have gotten Boston's 1st round pick in the deal.

[WTF]

I'm tired of the word potential being attached to every player. I do understand that every player at some point have potential to be better but for the life of me I can understand why our player seem to start the potential ascend from below bottom. Can we ever get players that are already pretty damn good and go from there.

I'm tire of role players and not that role players aren't of great value we just don't need 13 of the 15 man roster to be role players. We should be arguing that all 5 of our starters should be making an All Team and not guessing if they should even be starting. You all remember this starting line up? Joe, Zeke, Rodman, Lamb and Mahorn, or how about this one Chauncey Rip, Prince, Sheed and Big Ben. Have our standards dip so freaking low that we argue about pieces of sh!t like Singler and Datome. I just mentioned 10 starters from 2 different championship teams and 8 of them were multiple All-Stars and we could argue that at some point the other 2 could have been. Hell 3 of them are already HOF'ers but here we are debating these current turds like they're anyone of the 10 champions players.

The freaking role players from those team, I mean the second units would whip this current roster ass 9 out of 10 times. Microwave, Memo, Corliss, Salley, Buhda, James, Edwards, Hunter, Long, and so on. I mean really can I at least have a Corliss, Memo, Vinny and Salley coming of my bench and then argue if they should start or not.

Potential sucks with exception of Big Ben and Chauncey no other player had to wait beyond 2 years to realize their potential. We got players 5 years in and still playing like they haven't learned a damn thing since being drafted.

[deusXango]

Gerald Green is a great stop-gap idea for this team.  I think he would be perfect.  For now.  I always liked how he played.

Fly, I haven't heard anything about Wallace lately, other than his huge contract talk, so I honestly don't know what's up with him currently, but the Gerald Wallace of a few years ago was a monster; if we could get that Wallace for the remainder of this season, I'd be okay with it.

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