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Post  Oracle on Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:06 pm

@Wise - Are you loopy? You said,
Wise wrote:This isn't a knock on Andre just that he like many other picks Joe made never really made sense. I was never crazy about Knight and always thought Kemba was a better option and the fact that we traded him only proves it.


First you constantly say how wrong Joe was, but him trading Knight PROVES something? Yeah, it proves how DUMB Joe was! BTW, Kemba has a better team around him, so it's hard to compare when we have Josh as our highest paid player.

@Don - You said,
Don wrote:It is amazing that any Piston fan would enjoy watching Josh Smith play basketball

I totally agree! You can only like watching Josh play if you like taking a good beating, but then again some do like S&M. If that's your bag(Wise lol ), let Lady Ramirez be your guide! It's safer than watching Josh lol lol lol


@Wise again - If this is true, then SVG is one crazy ass hole! I know he wants to get the defense going, but you have to shoot to be good at it!
Jennings wrote:"If you ask the question about why we're not making shots, we don't shoot," Jennings said after Friday's 99-89 loss to the Atlanta Hawks. "We don't shoot in practice. We haven't really had a chance to work on our games or anything. When we do have shootarounds, we're not able to get up shots like we should."

The practice-poor Pistons have played 13 games already, losing 10 of them, and rank at or near the bottom of the NBA in the most important shooting categories.

Jennings said the Pistons would make good use of the three off days upcoming, with practices on Sunday and Monday.

@Don again - While I wouldn't call SF a strength, I do believe it's not the position that's causing the problems unless Josh is playing there!
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Seb, I LOVE it!!!

Post  Oracle on Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:50 pm

Seb wrote:Yo, cool, I believe WE ALL called the need to start Jerebko at the SF position weeks, ago. Start Moose and Dre. Remember the nice pass that Moose dished to Dre, last night. And, bring Josh off the bench to punish the opponent's 2nd shift, while finishing games after he has developed a groove.

You guys do remember after WE won the tip, Josh's cross court pass to the second row of fans. Maybe, Josh would be better coming off the bench.

Starting Jerebko still offers size and mobility at the position. Jerebko has proven that he can score from a variety of locations on the floor and he can be a decent passer. He has relatively good basketball instincts, well enough to start.


I think that Moose, Dre and JJ is an awesome combination to start games. Talk about GREAT size, there's your big 3, with JJ spreading the floor!

We have got to get this word out where SVG will see it!!!
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Trades

Post  Sparma on Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:00 pm

Murph: "We need to trade Moose to a contender that he'll agree to go to, for a 1st round pick and an expiring contract."

I'd love that kind of trade, but it seems like a long shot.

From my point of view, any Piston could be traded in the right deal. More realistically, Drummond's virtually off limits and KCP and Dinwiddie are very unlikely to be traded. Singler would need to be part of a good trade to make it worth it. With the others, just don't make another poison pill trade a la the Gordon deal.

I'm wondering if there might be a bit of interest out there in Jennings. As David Mayo said recently, he's now playing up to his contract. I don't want him to run the whole show, but he makes a lot of good plays and could be a valuable weapon in the right context. He's played some tough defense recently with his quick hands, even though he's always going to be bullied by bigger, stronger, players. I have trouble seeing the team moving forward with him as the main person at the controls, although I think he'd be just fine with us in a more limited role (which may well be what SVG envisioned in signed Augustin).

Just to throw something wild out there: how about Monroe and Jennings for Rondo, a pick, and the bit to match salaries? We'd need Monroe's consent. From my point of view, we'd be losing that trade bigtime, but I'm guessing that would be true for any Monroe trade we could pull off at this point, unless we could get the 1st rounder Murph mentioned (and I think it'd need to be a high first rounder to get something like equal value).
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Nail on the head ...

Post  Sebastian on Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:31 pm

cool breeze wrote:The following facts cannot be disputed in my opinion. Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings are on every GMs list as players they do not want on their teams. The only GM that wanted either of them was Joe Dumars and some of our Piston posters. Are other NBA players who play on other teams excited about the idea of having either Jennings or Smith as their teammate. NO!

With the above hard truth absorbed, what can Stan Van Gundy do now? Perhaps he could trade Jennings and include some cash. But with Smith can he give Josh away and agree to pay his entire salary and some additional cash if only some team will agree to take him? I imagine that Tom Gores would say no, Stan you will have to work it all out somehow. I am sure that my now Tom Gores has nightmares relating to Smith and Jennings.

This is what I would do regardless of the consequences relating to Smith. I would play Smith in a limited role. Smith's role should be to agree to play aggressive defense and become a outstanding rebounder and outlet passer. He should not be the focus of the offense at all and should be instructed to not shoot the ball unless he is within 5 feet of the basket and have a role like Ben Wallace. I suspect that several coaches have already asked Josh to do that but he refuses and doesn't really give a damn what the coaches say because he knows that he will have to play because of the size of his contract. But coaches decided that even though Charlie V made 8 million a year, he was going to sit on the damn bench anyway. So if Smith doesn't accept the role that could help his team, then he needs to be placed on the bench.

The reason why I want Jennings gone is because he causes horrible team chemistry. Last night Jennings again decided to freeze out any small forward who's name was not Josh Smith. Maybe they are in love with each other but this type of childish nonsense kills team chemistry. Also, Jennings might be a horrible defender for his entire career. I suspect that some team like the Lakers would take Jennings if Detroit agreed to pay part of his contract. If Jennings goes, then the team will be in some trouble because Augustin is showing that he is not a real point guard either and also has issues on the defensive end. This entire season could be a developmental season for Spencer Dinwiddie playing point guard. We need to see what he can bring to the team as a leader at the point guard position. He was the team leader at Colorado and played multiple positions. And I would look for a young point guard on another team who is not getting playing time or even in the D League. SVG could look like a genius if he can pick up a keeper. I can't imagine having two players on the same team (Jennings and Smith) who are guilty of playing the freeze out game with other teammates and not be disciplined by the coaching staff or removed from the team. It happened in the first quarter of last night's game and several other games this season. Perhaps Butler should step in and clean this issue up once and for all if the coaching staff won't.

But the fact remains that no team wanted either Smith or Jennings before Dumars signed them and I think few if any GMs want them now.

cool wrote:
But the fact remains that no team wanted either Smith or Jennings before Dumars signed them and I think few if any GMs want them now.

And that, Pistons Pals, is the conundrum the GM Stan and Head Coach SVG is faced with less than a week from Thanksgiving 2014. Gobble, gobble, gobble!!!
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Coach SVG has to try something different ...

Post  Sebastian on Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:21 pm

cool breeze wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:
cool breeze wrote:The Josh Smith Fan Club will not like this post.

PLAYER          FIELD GOAL%       FOUL SHOOTING%    3 POINT SHOOTING PERCENTAGE

JEREBCO           527%                       100%                                  40%

SINGLER            417%                        90%                                   424%

BUTLER              416%                        87&                                    381%

SMITH               369%                         46%                                   200%


Based on the facts it is clear that both Singler and Jerebco should be starters and finishers on this team. Butler is coming in usually as the first sub off the bench. Is that because Stan Van Gundy is his buddy? And it is clear that no coach in their right mind should be playing Smith the amount of minutes he is getting at the expense of Jerebco's minutes. The only damn reason why both Singler and Jerebco are getting screwed by Stan Van Gundy is the fact that those two are team orientated guys who above all want to form good team chemistry. Those two are not going to mouth off to the coach like Smith did in the last game. Plus Smith is the highest paid player on the team. Stan has become a COWARD. 3]]He is afraid of Josh Smith and most likely several other players.

[/b]On the opposite side of the spectrum, coach Sean Miller was asked this past week if his ace All American freshman Stanley Johnson would be upset if he didn't start? Miller's reply was the players need to be worried if I am upset. I make all player decisions and they follow my lead. I thought that Stan Van Gundy stood for something but he is a politically correct pussy coach just like many others we have experienced. Grow some balls Stan.

The Josh Smith Fan Club don't get bother by the over reaching of Fans and media to criticize Josh in fact we're becoming immune of it.  We can make stats say anything if we want them to.  Beside the stats showing Josh shooting like **** that where it stops because the three guys shooting better still don't do all the other things Josh does on a regular.  Neither Butler, Singler or JJ deserves to start over Josh and it won't happen unless SVG has the idea to trade Josh otherwise all the Non Josh Fan Club Members can just continue to moan.  Fact remains without this don't have 3 wins and to date I can't count 10 games Josh lost for us.  :-) Carry on Josh Haters

cool you come with some of the crazy reason why Singler and JJ can't start over Josh or warrant court time at all.  There are 82 games in a season if Singler and JJ can average double figures in 10 of them I'll be shocked.  at the end of the day Josh will have triple their out across the board (reb, pts, ast, blks, and so on} Josh will have likely won half of any games we've won and will be responsible for a handful of loses maybe.  

Seem you have role players and starters mixed up tb  as usual

Like I said Wisefan, the devil is in the details. Smith gets max playing time and shoots the ball way more than he should to achieve that mis leading scoring average. He makes critical mistakes causing turnovers. Meanwhile, Butler and Singler seldom even touch the basketball in SVG's offense. It is amazing that any Piston fan would enjoy watching Josh Smith play basketball. And both Singler and Butler play far better defense at the small forward position than Smith. Last night I watched Josh play defense while playing small forward and on two occasions in a short time period, he lost concentration while watching the guard who had the ball while his assigned man who was standing around the baseline 3 point line, snuck behind Josh for an easy pass and layup. Great job Josh Smith. The only reason Josh Smith is playing at all right now is because of the size of his contract. He is a horrible basketball player who was at one time extremely athletic. The sooner he leaves the better this team will be. Jerebco should be the starter if there was any justice at all or Butler or Singler your alleged role players. Those three players are complete basketball players who have one thing Josh is missing - high basketball IQs. You never win with Josh Smith type players at least in the NBA.

Yo, cool, I believe WE ALL called the need to start Jerebko at the SF position weeks, ago. Start Moose and Dre. Remember the nice pass that Moose dished to Dre, last night. And, bring Josh off the bench to punish the opponent's 2nd shift, while finishing games after he has developed a groove.

You guys do remember after WE won the tip, Josh's cross court pass to the second row of fans. Maybe, Josh would be better coming off the bench.

Starting Jerebko still offers size and mobility at the position. Jerebko has proven that he can score from a variety of locations on the floor and he can be a decent passer. He has relatively good basketball instincts, well enough to start.

Hell, Coach SVG has got to do something different. It is crazy, the only two players that Coach SVG has player in their proper positions and roles are: Caron "Keep Cashing Those Checks" Butler and Kyle "I'm really a 9th-man. No, I really am a 9th-man." Singler).

Butler as really the 9th-man and here, lately Singler has been the 10th-man. Their roles are defined. Butler comes in to help space the floor with a few heat checks and Singler does like-wise, while helping to keep the ball moving on the offense. Butler, usually passes the ball when he receives it and Singler, typically has passed the ball when he receives it. Hence the reason why the two can co-exist on the floor together.

So, the 9th and 10th-man spots are well defined, it is positions 1 through 8 that SVG is struggling with.

1. PG: OUR starting PG should be finishing games. Of the 13 games, B. Jennings has probably only walked off the floor at the end of games only 7 times. Brandon Jennings fails miserably as a schematic, cerebral team leader. His street ball tendencies are not good for a starting PG in the NBA.

2. SG: KCP should be OUR starting SG, but he needs to start his offensive game from the tip, inside-out. He needs to try to get some easy buckets first, while evolving to the mid-range, then take deeper shots. Starting from the inside out, allows for the SG to get the opposing starting SG in foul trouble and it gets KCP easier points and shots from the line. The starting SG has to be a scorer, not a shooter.

3. SF:  OUR SF position has been f@cked-up from the first game of the season, when Singler was starting and Moose was serving his suspension. Josh has been more productive, but equally as ineffective as Singler. I think that it is time to give Jerebko a shot. WE don't play, again, until Tuesday (@ Milwaukee). I say start Jerebko for the next 7 games and bring Josh off the bench first man off. Josh could sub for Moose, Dre, or Jerebko. That flexibility, Stan. Also GM Stan, needs to take advantage of the fact that this is a contract season for Jerebko. Put, your GM thinking cap on GM Stan. Jerebko is playing for a contract.

4. PF: OUR starting PF position is not defined (see #3).

5. C: All the criticism that has been written about the start to Dre's 3rd season is warranted. But, the kid has still grabbed rebounds. Last night he had one of his best games of the season, as he didn't get a bunch incidental fouls. He needs a big man coach, Stan. You are the GM. Go get Dre a Big Man coach. Hell you got Mahorn in the building. You had 'Sheed on the staff, who was probably a great asset to Moose, too. Oh, and another thing ... the offensive success of the starting Center is largely a role that is fulfilled by the starting PG.

6. 6th Man: OUR first man off the bench should not be Caron Butler one night, Kyle Singler another night, Jerebko another night, D.J. Augustin another night. No! The 6ht-man is a strategical component to a successful team. This is guy, who helps to redefine the starting unit. He brings something else to a team: points, 3 pt-shooting, defense. The 6th-man provides an extremely important element to a team. Not some random, wishful outcome. Bring Josh off the bench, Stan.

7. 7th Man:  OUR 7th- man has not played a single, regular season game, yte. That's right Jodie F@ckin' Meeks. Just think if this dude was able to do the one thing that he was given an $18 million contract for, the Pistons just maybe would like an NBA team after 13 games.

8-  8th Man: D.J. Augustin is a good back-up PG, who struggles to guard even back-up SGs. D.J. Augustin should not be finishing games.

As noted above, the 9th- and 10th-man positions are the only positions that are properly defined, at this time.

There is absolutely no team chemistry! None!


Last edited by Sebastian on Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:02 pm; edited 3 times in total
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The brutal facts facing Stan Van Gundy which must cause him to lose a lot of sleep

Post  cool breeze on Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:11 pm

The following facts cannot be disputed in my opinion. Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings are on every GMs list as players they do not want on their teams. The only GM that wanted either of them was Joe Dumars and some of our Piston posters. Are other NBA players who play on other teams excited about the idea of having either Jennings or Smith as their teammate. NO!

With the above hard truth absorbed, what can Stan Van Gundy do now? Perhaps he could trade Jennings and include some cash. But with Smith can he give Josh away and agree to pay his entire salary and some additional cash if only some team will agree to take him? I imagine that Tom Gores would say no, Stan you will have to work it all out somehow. I am sure that my now Tom Gores has nightmares relating to Smith and Jennings.

This is what I would do regardless of the consequences relating to Smith. I would play Smith in a limited role. Smith's role should be to agree to play aggressive defense and become a outstanding rebounder and outlet passer. He should not be the focus of the offense at all and should be instructed to not shoot the ball unless he is within 5 feet of the basket and have a role like Ben Wallace. I suspect that several coaches have already asked Josh to do that but he refuses and doesn't really give a damn what the coaches say because he knows that he will have to play because of the size of his contract. But coaches decided that even though Charlie V made 8 million a year, he was going to sit on the damn bench anyway. So if Smith doesn't accept the role that could help his team, then he needs to be placed on the bench.

The reason why I want Jennings gone is because he causes horrible team chemistry. Last night Jennings again decided to freeze out any small forward who's name was not Josh Smith. Maybe they are in love with each other but this type of childish nonsense kills team chemistry. Also, Jennings might be a horrible defender for his entire career. I suspect that some team like the Lakers would take Jennings if Detroit agreed to pay part of his contract. If Jennings goes, then the team will be in some trouble because Augustin is showing that he is not a real point guard either and also has issues on the defensive end. This entire season could be a developmental season for Spencer Dinwiddie playing point guard. We need to see what he can bring to the team as a leader at the point guard position. He was the team leader at Colorado and played multiple positions. And I would look for a young point guard on another team who is not getting playing time or even in the D League. SVG could look like a genius if he can pick up a keeper. I can't imagine having two players on the same team (Jennings and Smith) who are guilty of playing the freeze out game with other teammates and not be disciplined by the coaching staff or removed from the team. It happened in the first quarter of last night's game and several other games this season. Perhaps Butler should step in and clean this issue up once and for all if the coaching staff won't.

But the fact remains that no team wanted either Smith or Jennings before Dumars signed them and I think few if any GMs want them now.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:33 pm

WISEFAN wrote:
cool breeze wrote:The Josh Smith Fan Club will not like this post.

PLAYER          FIELD GOAL%       FOUL SHOOTING%    3 POINT SHOOTING PERCENTAGE

JEREBCO           527%                       100%                                  40%

SINGLER            417%                        90%                                   424%

BUTLER              416%                        87&                                    381%

SMITH               369%                         46%                                   200%


Based on the facts it is clear that both Singler and Jerebco should be starters and finishers on this team. Butler is coming in usually as the first sub off the bench. Is that because Stan Van Gundy is his buddy? And it is clear that no coach in their right mind should be playing Smith the amount of minutes he is getting at the expense of Jerebco's minutes. The only damn reason why both Singler and Jerebco are getting screwed by Stan Van Gundy is the fact that those two are team orientated guys who above all want to form good team chemistry. Those two are not going to mouth off to the coach like Smith did in the last game. Plus Smith is the highest paid player on the team. Stan has become a COWARD. 3]]He is afraid of Josh Smith and most likely several other players.

[/b]On the opposite side of the spectrum, coach Sean Miller was asked this past week if his ace All American freshman Stanley Johnson would be upset if he didn't start? Miller's reply was the players need to be worried if I am upset. I make all player decisions and they follow my lead. I thought that Stan Van Gundy stood for something but he is a politically correct pussy coach just like many others we have experienced. Grow some balls Stan.

The Josh Smith Fan Club don't get bother by the over reaching of Fans and media to criticize Josh in fact we're becoming immune of it.  We can make stats say anything if we want them to.  Beside the stats showing Josh shooting like **** that where it stops because the three guys shooting better still don't do all the other things Josh does on a regular.  Neither Butler, Singler or JJ deserves to start over Josh and it won't happen unless SVG has the idea to trade Josh otherwise all the Non Josh Fan Club Members can just continue to moan.  Fact remains without this don't have 3 wins and to date I can't count 10 games Josh lost for us.  :-) Carry on Josh Haters

cool you come with some of the crazy reason why Singler and JJ can't start over Josh or warrant court time at all.  There are 82 games in a season if Singler and JJ can average double figures in 10 of them I'll be shocked.  at the end of the day Josh will have triple their out across the board (reb, pts, ast, blks, and so on} Josh will have likely won half of any games we've won and will be responsible for a handful of loses maybe.  

Seem you have role players and starters mixed up tb  as usual

Like I said Wisefan, the devil is in the details. Smith gets max playing time and shoots the ball way more than he should to achieve that mis leading scoring average. He makes critical mistakes causing turnovers. Meanwhile, Butler and Singler seldom even touch the basketball in SVG's offense. It is amazing that any Piston fan would enjoy watching Josh Smith play basketball. And both Singler and Butler play far better defense at the small forward position than Smith. Last night I watched Josh play defense while playing small forward and on two occasions in a short time period, he lost concentration while watching the guard who had the ball while his assigned man who was standing around the baseline 3 point line, snuck behind Josh for an easy pass and layup. Great job Josh Smith. The only reason Josh Smith is playing at all right now is because of the size of his contract. He is a horrible basketball player who was at one time extremely athletic. The sooner he leaves the better this team will be. Jerebco should be the starter if there was any justice at all or Butler or Singler your alleged role players. Those three players are complete basketball players who have one thing Josh is missing - high basketball IQs. You never win with Josh Smith type players at least in the NBA.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:16 pm

Murph wrote:
Sparma wrote:Our horrible start should make a few things evident:

Patchwork repairs of the sort SVG attempted as GM over the summer won't cut it.  A more fundamental rebuild is needed.

We can stop dreaming about our best player seeing how well things are working out so that he decides to stay.   It's possible that our being able to offer more money will still carry the days, but more realistically, we need to move on, already this season.  Specifically, that means dedicating plenty of effort to finding out about AD's capacity for a more sophisticated game, especially offensively, even if the results are discouraging.  It's a good time for serious diagnostic work and experimentation.

We can hope for real help from the draft.  Sadly, we've messed up the high picks of Monroe and Knight for different reasons, in the sense that neither will be of longterm benefit to us, but it looks like we're in for another high pick.  We badly need the infusion of talent.

The awful start might buy some time for SVG before Gores starts squawking about playoffs again.  The owner needs to be on board with a patient reconstruction.   We could scarcely take a step backwards recordwise, but I do think SVG may need to jettison NBA talents for low picks and scraps to get in a position to move forward.

The terrible start brings all that into focus in a way that heading towards a 42-40 season likely wouldn't.  

Agreed.  We are effectively tanking the season, without even trying.  We're so bad, we have something like the third worst record in basketball.  I'd hate to see how bad we would be if we were actually trying to lose.   lol    

Hopefully, our 1st round pick will be so high next June that we'll draft an all star quality small forward.

And you are correct, we need to move on from Monroe.  We need to trade Moose to a contender that he'll agree to go to, for a 1st round pick and an expiring contract.  

That would give us two 1st round picks, and a high 2nd rounder.  Hey...along with Drummond, KCP, Dinwiddie and maybe Singler, it's a start.

I am puzzled with all this focus on needing a small forward above everything. The way I see it, the small forward position is our strongest area right now if you eliminate Josh Smith from playing that position. Singler and Butler are both doing a good job. If we use a draft selection to fill an alleged need at the 3, then we will continue to struggle and nothing with improve. If you are an All Star caliber player right now and play small forward, the last place you would want to be is on this Piston team. Both of the point guards, Jennings and Augustin, are getting beat every game on the defensive end. Atlanta's point guard exposed this weakness again last night. Plus, if you are not Josh Smith playing small forward, Brandon Jennings will never pass the ball to you. The 2 guard position is a weak spot right now with KCP being inconsistent but I expect that in the end KCP is going to be a great 2 guard. He is only in his 2nd season and management needs to be patient because he is already a good defender. Meeks has not played so I would not waste draft pick on the 2 guard position as well. With all this talk about the team's strength with the Big 3, I don't really thing any of those players are very good right now. Monroe is likely to move on. Smith is not a good fit for a young developing team that needs to be created. Smith is just not a smart player and it is doubtful that anything will change with him. So that leaves Drummond, the alleged franchise player. Like KCP, Drummond is a work in progress. If we keep Drummond and lose Smith and Monroe, the Pistons need a high caliber two way playing big man. That player needs to produce points from inside and outside consistently and play above average defense. To me, that means the only way we will get that type of player is through the draft. No NBA team is going to part with a smart two way big man. The same goes for point guard. No team is going to give up a young smart leader type guy who can create winning chemistry. Jennings lacks the ability to defend most NBA players and he is not the type of person who will ever be thought of as a high chemistry creator type player.

Again, it is pure nonsense if you are seriously interested in creating a good team in the future to ignore the team's biggest needs - point guards, and big men. Our big men and point guards continue to cost this team because they are getting their asses beat consistently game after game by opposing bigs and point guards. If management can fill those positions with winning caliber players, it will be easy to sign a free agent small forward or 2 guard if necessary. Regarding this current team, just look at the stats and observe that the best shooters on the team are the two small forwards, Singler and Butler. The problem is that the point guards do not share the ball with them. And in my opinion, although Singler and Butler's defense is not perfect, they are much better at holding their own on defense than our bigs or point guards. I still believe that if we eliminate Smith from this team and use Dinwiddie at point guard at least coming off the bench, this team could still make the playoffs. With Jennings and Smith playing together, we have no chance. When they are on the court together, our defense suffers more and the other three players might as well just sit down and rest because they are not going to get the ball. I fault the head coach for allowing this to go on.

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WTF

Post  WTF on Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:46 am

Jennings wrote:"If you ask the question about why we're not making shots, we don't shoot," Jennings said after Friday's 99-89 loss to the Atlanta Hawks. "We don't shoot in practice. We haven't really had a chance to work on our games or anything. When we do have shootarounds, we're not able to get up shots like we should."

The practice-poor Pistons have played 13 games already, losing 10 of them, and rank at or near the bottom of the NBA in the most important shooting categories.

Jennings said the Pistons would make good use of the three off days upcoming, with practices on Sunday and Monday.

This is some sad ass **** if true but I doubt if Jennings is lying about it. I agree both SVG and the players should take blame. This **** is sad
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44 Wins??????????????

Post  WTF on Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:34 am

I'm almost willing to pack in the season and come back in 3 or 4 years. I'm willing to bet that had Ilitch got the team instead of Gorse things would be a lot different by now. While I was never really a great fan of Moose we should have been building around him as our starting center and Andre would have never been our pick to begin with.

This isn't a knock on Andre just that he like many other picks Joe made never really made sense. I was never crazy about Knight and always thought Kemba was a better option and the fact that we traded him only proves it. Passing on MCW and Trey Burke also compounded the issues we have now because I could have live with a of Knight playing with either Burke or MCW. Gifting away our 1st last season another dumb ass move as well.

SVG didn't do all of his homework IMO even though Joe caused a lot of this SVG wasn't necessarily stuck with keep this roster intact to this extent. He sounded like Joe with this getting value in return crap, well sometimes less equals more and he should have taking an hit on losing Moose this summer and he might as well kept Stuckey and Bynum and used that second round pick on another big or SF.

I thought this team at worse would be playing .500 ball right now.
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Blessing

Post  Murph on Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:42 am

Sparma wrote:Our horrible start should make a few things evident:

Patchwork repairs of the sort SVG attempted as GM over the summer won't cut it.  A more fundamental rebuild is needed.

We can stop dreaming about our best player seeing how well things are working out so that he decides to stay.   It's possible that our being able to offer more money will still carry the days, but more realistically, we need to move on, already this season.  Specifically, that means dedicating plenty of effort to finding out about AD's capacity for a more sophisticated game, especially offensively, even if the results are discouraging.  It's a good time for serious diagnostic work and experimentation.

We can hope for real help from the draft.  Sadly, we've messed up the high picks of Monroe and Knight for different reasons, in the sense that neither will be of longterm benefit to us, but it looks like we're in for another high pick.  We badly need the infusion of talent.

The awful start might buy some time for SVG before Gores starts squawking about playoffs again.  The owner needs to be on board with a patient reconstruction.   We could scarcely take a step backwards recordwise, but I do think SVG may need to jettison NBA talents for low picks and scraps to get in a position to move forward.

The terrible start brings all that into focus in a way that heading towards a 42-40 season likely wouldn't.  

Agreed. We are effectively tanking the season, without even trying. We're so bad, we have something like the third worst record in basketball. I'd hate to see how bad we would be if we were actually trying to lose. lol

Hopefully, our 1st round pick will be so high next June that we'll draft an all star quality small forward.

And you are correct, we need to move on from Monroe. We need to trade Moose to a contender that he'll agree to go to, for a 1st round pick and an expiring contract.

That would give us two 1st round picks, and a high 2nd rounder. Hey...along with Drummond, KCP, Dinwiddie and maybe Singler, it's a start.
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Please

Post  WTF on Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:58 am

cool breeze wrote:The Josh Smith Fan Club will not like this post.

PLAYER          FIELD GOAL%       FOUL SHOOTING%    3 POINT SHOOTING PERCENTAGE

JEREBCO           527%                       100%                                  40%

SINGLER            417%                        90%                                   424%

BUTLER              416%                        87&                                    381%

SMITH               369%                         46%                                   200%


Based on the facts it is clear that both Singler and Jerebco should be starters and finishers on this team. Butler is coming in usually as the first sub off the bench. Is that because Stan Van Gundy is his buddy? And it is clear that no coach in their right mind should be playing Smith the amount of minutes he is getting at the expense of Jerebco's minutes. The only damn reason why both Singler and Jerebco are getting screwed by Stan Van Gundy is the fact that those two are team orientated guys who above all want to form good team chemistry. Those two are not going to mouth off to the coach like Smith did in the last game. Plus Smith is the highest paid player on the team. Stan has become a COWARD. 3]]He is afraid of Josh Smith and most likely several other players.

[/b]On the opposite side of the spectrum, coach Sean Miller was asked this past week if his ace All American freshman Stanley Johnson would be upset if he didn't start? Miller's reply was the players need to be worried if I am upset. I make all player decisions and they follow my lead. I thought that Stan Van Gundy stood for something but he is a politically correct pussy coach just like many others we have experienced. Grow some balls Stan.

The Josh Smith Fan Club don't get bother by the over reaching of Fans and media to criticize Josh in fact we're becoming immune of it.  We can make stats say anything if we want them to.  Beside the stats showing Josh shooting like **** that where it stops because the three guys shooting better still don't do all the other things Josh does on a regular.  Neither Butler, Singler or JJ deserves to start over Josh and it won't happen unless SVG has the idea to trade Josh otherwise all the Non Josh Fan Club Members can just continue to moan.  Fact remains without this don't have 3 wins and to date I can't count 10 games Josh lost for us.  :-) Carry on Josh Haters

cool you come with some of the crazy reason why Singler and JJ can't start over Josh or warrant court time at all. There are 82 games in a season if Singler and JJ can average double figures in 10 of them I'll be shocked. at the end of the day Josh will have triple their out across the board (reb, pts, ast, blks, and so on} Josh will have likely won half of any games we've won and will be responsible for a handful of loses maybe.

Seem you have role players and starters mixed up tb as usual
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Blessing in disguise?

Post  Sparma on Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:50 am

Our horrible start should make a few things evident:

Patchwork repairs of the sort SVG attempted as GM over the summer won't cut it.  A more fundamental rebuild is needed.

We can stop dreaming about our best player seeing how well things are working out so that he decides to stay.   It's possible that our being able to offer more money will still carry the day, but more realistically, we need to move on, already this season.  Specifically, that means dedicating plenty of effort to finding out about AD's capacity for playing a more sophisticated game, especially offensively, even if the results are discouraging.  It's a good time for diagnostic work and experimentation.

We can hope for real help from the draft.  Sadly, we've messed up the high picks of Monroe and Knight for different reasons, in the sense that neither will be of longterm benefit to us, but it looks like we're in for another high pick.  We badly need the infusion of talent.

The awful start might buy some time for SVG before Gores starts squawking about playoffs again.  The owner needs to be on board with a patient reconstruction.   We could scarcely take a step backwards recordwise, but I do think SVG may need to jettison NBA talents for low picks and scraps to get in a position to move forward.

The terrible start brings all that into focus in a way that heading towards a 42-40 season likely wouldn't.


Last edited by Sparma on Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:34 am; edited 2 times in total
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You'll never get team chemistry...

Post  Oracle on Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:14 am

If you can't shoot, it just isn't happening because you never end up executing your game plan!

These guys toss out their game plan as soon as they start struggling to hit shots!

We need some players that can either hit their shots or can create shots.

For all of Bynum's faults, he could at least create a shot for either himself or Drummond fairly often.

For all of Stuckey's faults, if things got tight, he'd at least bull his way in for a few scores!

SVG got rid of those two for their faults, and didn't replace what they did well! We have too many "Dependent"(role) players.

I had hoped that KCP was going to replace that, but he looks worse than ever! He can't hit anything and he can't finish at the rim, he's just plain out of sync. In short, KCP is no Stuckey, but he's also only a 2nd year player!

Monroe is the ONLY player capable of creating a shot outside of Augustin.

IMO, if we could get the following going, we'd see a lot of improvement.

Jennings & Meeks starting, and Dinwiddie & KCP off the bench with Augustin filling in as 3rd guard or 2nd guard if matchups dictate.

BTW, WTF happened to Martin? He was cleared to play, then crickets!

IMO, Meeks is likely out for 2 more months, and possibly for the season the way we've been snake bit!

As Seb has said, moves are needed. I'm not a fan of making moves before you get a full picture of where your real needs are, because short term issues can mask deeper problems or appear to be problems and aren't the right ones, so caution is advised.

Having said that, a lot of the problems are very visible, the problem comes in determining who to get and who to let go... neither are easy tasks.
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RE: There is absolutely no team chemistry ...

Post  Phil1980boy on Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:17 am

Chemistry is not good for this team.

The glue guys look good. JJ, Singler, and D.J. In my opinion, all three are keepers moving forward.

Drummonds had A solid game. He look more patient tonight.

Jeff T was the best player on the floor tonight followed by Paul Millsap. The Pistons don't have anybody on the team as talented and as smart as those two players are.

Van Gundy rode DJ, JJ, Singler, Butler and Drummonds all the way, as far as those 5 guys could take the Pistons and then they got tired and ATL pulled away. But those 5 guys almost stole the game away from ATL. Good effort... clap

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KCP: It's obvious that summer league is OVER!

Post  Oracle on Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:12 am

KCP is looking like KCP the rookie last year... he's almost a total non-factor!

He still plays good defense, but can't make his man pay on the other end!

4 points in 32 minutes? Hell, JJ got that in 12!

I'm ready for Meeks to take his spot!
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Don

Post  Oracle on Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:59 am

In the 4th Korver was beating Singler in every way a player can get beat!

He shot over him, he drove the lane on him, and on one play I still don't know what Singler was doing when he left Korver wide open for a 3 while looking totally confused chasing some other man!

Then SVG put KCP on him!

Now that's not to say Singler had a bad game, he was actually pretty good except for that stretch in the 4th when Korver hurt us so bad!

But I certainly would like to see him get more touches earlier, because Singler is smart enough to pass the ball if his shot is off!
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Just saw this

Post  Oracle on Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:53 am

Vincent Goodwill @vgoodwill
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Last year, the Pistons shot under 40 percent 10 times. They're at 5 already this time around. Just bad offense
Keith Langlois @Keith_Langlois
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Pistons come back from 19 down on road (again) but lose because they shot under 40% (again) .. Offense a struggle

Nuff Said!!!
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Augustin plays one against five and the coach allows it to happen

Post  cool breeze on Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:52 am

is that what you can an offense Stan? Even Jennings has stopped shooting the ball early in the shot clock. Detroit makes a nice run with the 2nd unit. Actually Jerebco was a key guy in that comeback even though he didn't score much. Augustin started out running the offense through Jerebco who instead of jacking up a stupid shot, made the right pass at the the right time. We saw a real team at times with players moving without the ball, setting smart screens, and making several passes to break down the defense. Then when Detroit got close, Augustin starts going off on his own as a one man band. No team can win that way unless the guy going off on his own is Labron James.

I really believe that the Pistons would have something special if Spencer Dinwiddie took over the point guard position on the second unit playing with Jerebco, Singler, Monroe-Drummond, and Butler-KCP. First off Dinwiddie has a high basketball IQ as a point guard and he is a really good defender. This could be a hard nosed ball sharing beautiful unit.

And Seb you can't be serious in saying that Singler is a good 9th man. Singler is the best shooter on this team and if you didn't notice Singler is a far superior defender playing small forward than Josh Smith will ever be. SVG chose Singler to try to stop the clever hot shooting Kyle Korver. We all have our favorites that we pull for and my four this season is Singler, KCP, Jerebco, and Dinwiddie. All of those players care about playing the game the right way not some punk ass way that kills team chemistry.

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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:43 am

Something that doesn't make sense.... the team is obviously inefficient offensively... what was the most efficient play we had last year?... drive and lob to Dre... hasn't anyone communicated this to SVG?
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If ever it was a time....

Post  deusXango on Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:42 am

It's now! We need to be giving Laimbeer his chance at being a head coach and bringing the greatest Piston of all, Isiah Lord Thomas, back into the fold as GM and President of Basketball Operations. If Gores was sincere about winning back fans and games, he would have made that hire....we got Stan Van Gundy and Jeff Bowers....makes you get all warm & fuzzy inside doesn't it?

There's no way in hell Zeke would have blown that CAP money on a bunch of 3rd tier players, no way! Look at the FA's who're better than and makes more sense than the ones we have. Where's the future in any of them? Were any of them ever dominate in any area of the game? $20+ million is a lot of scratch to blow on scrubs.....don't take up for them simply because they're Pistons now, they're scrubs! Given the history of Zeke's drafting abilities I doubt (as much as we all seem to like him) he'd have drafted Spencer Dinwiddie, an injured player, over Nick Johnson, a proven collegiate stud coming out of a top flight program. Our only pick was spent on a lame player. I may be wrong, but I believe Jennings wouldn't have made it to training camp, particularly after that "molly" incident. I'm also of the mind that Monroe would be a Piston beyond this year and Smith would be on another roster!

All that mouthing off by Drummond that Wise didn't like would have rubbed Laimbeer the wrong way also and he would have had Andre working on those FT's and defensive positioning this past summer instead of sitting the bench for Team U.S.A. Drummond had no college career and his pro experience was just enough to announce to the league he was a comer, but nothing to beat his chest about.....he's raw, young and dumb, and in need of teaching! I don't believe Laimbeer would've dumped Rasheed as a big man coach, but he would've added Mahorn to his staff also....if Drummond is to be the franchise's future and a hefty investment was made in Monroe, I believe Laimbeer would've treated them accordingly by providing the best big man coaching available.....who does Quinton Richardson coach?

Tom Gores is throwing his money around and making a lot of demands, but his decision making as an owner hasn't shown me much; was it a part of the deal to purchase the team that he'd keep the Pistons greats in exile? Does he find satisfaction in the results of his investment so far? Has he realized yet, that he could've had Thomas and Laimbeer for less money than he's paying SVG and Bower? Does anyone think we'd be worse off with the Pistons of yesteryear calling the shots? I guess the old street saying applies, "you get what your game calls for."

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I said it before and I'll say it again: The Pistons have ONE single problem!!!

Post  Oracle on Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:40 am

They can't shoot well enough to keep up with any team in the NBA, and when they get down, they're no longer playing their game!

Stop and think about this for a minute! There is no successful team in Piston History that didn't start out as a scoring machine... NONE!

You have to be able to shoot the effing basketball, or you won't be competitive!

The bad boys set a record for scoring before concentrating on defense! The team Larry Brown inherited had two prolific scorers in Chauncey & RIP, and Sheed could run up the score as well!

This board is GUILTY of the same thing Joe was guilty of... looking ONLY for players that do both, but excel at neither.

Zeke has said and lives by it! You have to let them do what they do best and THEN instill the defensive principles, not knock them over the head with it as soon as they get into the league... confidence is everything!

Singler hasn't earned the name Buckets in years, calling him streaky isn't close because to be streaky, you have to have a streak once in awhile! Some of that may be because he can't get his rhythm due to never seeing the ball from Jennings, but the facts are the facts!

Josh is just plain putrid, and if it was possible to never play him, I'd love to do it! Hell, even the Bucks have a winning record... WTF is up with that???


Just recently I said Meeks couldn't be our savior, but if we can get players that can hit timely shots, that could absolutely turn this team around.


Right now, teams shoot so much better than us, they get a lead and gain confidence and get hard to stop! With EXACTLY the reverse happening to us, we miss so much we LOSE confidence and thus play differently!

All of the changes we're talking about are mute unless we either get better shooters or we eliminate the worst shooters PT!

You simply can't shoot as bad as we do and win very often, and right now, SVG's plan to get shooters in here has backfired amazingly, IMO!
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There is absolutely no team chemistry ...

Post  Sebastian on Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:48 pm

cool breeze wrote:
Oracle wrote:Caron Butler was WIDE open for a 3, but Jennings passes the ball to Josh... WTF???

That's just plain DUMB, Josh is the last option that far out, but not for Jennings, he ignores the guy that's been hitting for the sure loser!

Oracle I am glad you are watching what I am watching because this game proves that Jennings and Smith are freezing out other open players to play their own game within the game. If you taped the game, go to the last Piston possession in the first quarter. Both Smith and Jennings ignored the wide open Singler not once but two times. Both made low percentage passes to each other where the safe and correct pass should have gone to Singler in both situations. I would hate playing with those morons. It was as if Singler was not on the same team. Wouldn't it be hard to keep your sanity or have any respect for those two punks?  It was  childish action that any coach would see immediately and do something about it. Will the Piston coaching staff act as if they have no idea what those two chemistry killers were doing? Van Gundy needs to be a man and move one of the two players NOW or put one or both at the end of the bench. How can any team function when that crap is going on? Jennings is Smith's bitch. Those two players must be watching the stats as closely as the forum members. Is Jennings trying to protect Smith's current starting slot at small forward? What in hell is Van Gundy doing? He is supposed to be the man in charge. Jennnings and Smith sure do not fear this coach.

By the way Tom Gores if you read this stuff did you see what we saw? If you did what are you going to do about it?

I can only imagine what Zeke would do to those two if he had taken the coaching job. There is no secret that Thomas has little respect for Brandon Jennings as he said in an around about way on NBA TV before the season started. Jennings will never be a team orientated player. He may fake it at times. He may score 45 points a game but his team will most likely always be on the losing end and few players will enjoy playing with him. Perhaps LA Lakers might take Jennings. Brandon Loves Kobe. Kobe has always been about Kobe so those two would make a great combination. Send Josh to the Lakers as well.

These guys do not even like each other, maybe Josh and Jennings are fond of the other, but there are some serious, serious personality conflicts all throughout this roster and and coaching staff. Trades must happen, as soon as possible.

Yeah, cool, I saw that possession that you have referenced. Not only is Singler an 9th-man, he may as well be a hologram as far as Jennings and Josh are concerned. By the way, Singler provided just what a 9th-man should provide, tonight. Give the dude 10 spot minutes and you get the best of Kyle Singler.

Oh, and I wished like hell that Gores would have given Zeke the GM and Head Coaching jobs that Stan has been given.

GM Stan and Head Coach SVG has a hell of a lot of work to do, because OUR Pistons are a mess, right now.
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2nd quarter defensive errors by Andre Drummond hurt the team

Post  cool breeze on Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:42 pm

Greg Monoe picked up his 3rd foul early in the 2nd quarter. That unit sure missed him. Drummond had to come back in the game and it looked to me that he was really tired. He made several mental mistakes in the paint on defense that lead to easy Atlanta baskets. That unit needs Monroe's presence to make the offense run. If he is in with Jerebco, Singler, Butler or KCP it is fun to watch the team on offense. They move without the ball, set screens and usually several players touch the ball on every possession unless Augustin goes off the reservation and shoots a low percentage shot early in the shot clock. I see hope with this group of players who all look to be on the same page and work as a real team should.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:13 pm

Oracle wrote:Caron Butler was WIDE open for a 3, but Jennings passes the ball to Josh... WTF???

That's just plain DUMB, Josh is the last option that far out, but not for Jennings, he ignores the guy that's been hitting for the sure loser!

Oracle I am glad you are watching what I am watching because this game proves that Jennings and Smith are freezing out other open players to play their own game within the game. If you taped the game, go to the last Piston possession in the first quarter. Both Smith and Jennings ignored the wide open Singler not once but two times. Both made low percentage passes to each other where the safe and correct pass should have gone to Singler in both situations. I would hate playing with those morons. It was as if Singler was not on the same team. Wouldn't it be hard to keep your sanity or have any respect for those two punks? It was childish action that any coach would see immediately and do something about it. Will the Piston coaching staff act as if they have no idea what those two chemistry killers were doing? Van Gundy needs to be a man and move one of the two players NOW or put one or both at the end of the bench. How can any team function when that crap is going on? Jennings is Smith's bitch. Those two players must be watching the stats as closely as the forum members. Is Jennings trying to protect Smith's current starting slot at small forward? What in hell is Van Gundy doing? He is supposed to be the man in charge. Jennnings and Smith sure do not fear this coach.

By the way Tom Gores if you read this stuff did you see what we saw? If you did what are you going to do about it?

I can only imagine what Zeke would do to those two if he had taken the coaching job. There is no secret that Thomas has little respect for Brandon Jennings as he said in an around about way on NBA TV before the season started. Jennings will never be a team orientated player. He may fake it at times. He may score 45 points a game but his team will most likely always be on the losing end and few players will enjoy playing with him. Perhaps LA Lakers might take Jennings. Brandon Loves Kobe. Kobe has always been about Kobe so those two would make a great combination. Send Josh to the Lakers as well.

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Re: FORUM

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