RE

[Phil-Good]

Good come back Xango. I like that. Good stuff!!         

[cool breeze]

How can I not like this basketball player? He does all the right things for the game. After the game last night, Labron talked about the hard work he does in the off season to get better. He continues to work his butt off to work on the things he feels might be weak or could get a lot better. You see it on the court this time of year by all the players who put in the necessary work when the fans are not watching. I wonder about some of our players. I know Kyle Singler is one of those players who loves to work on his weaknesses. You have to love to push yourself to always try to get better at whatever you do. Here we have a guy who is ultra rich killing himself in workouts when nobody is watching. That is a beautiful thing. Have any reporters ever interviewed Josh Smith in the summer or investigated what he is doing in the off season? That is my complaint with Smith. He could be a fantastic player but it is obvious that he doesn't put in much of any work at all in the off season. A guy like Smith should be shooting free throws at a 85% clip at least. He should be a better outside shooter and know all the offensive and defensive plays. Can fans count on him in the clutch. He has never been a player a team could rely on in the 4th quarter. Did any of you Smith supporters know that? I knew that when he was will Atlanta. His teammates didn't trust his decision making ability in the clutch. Can Stan transform Smith into an elite player? This is the thing I am hoping for but somebody needs to get on him to steer him in the right direction now. Some on Josh work your ass off and show how good you can be. 

Few teams have a player with Labron's mindset. But many put in a lot of work in the off season having good intentions. If you put in the work you have higher expectations in yourself. Somehow Detroit has signed many players who are content to coast in the summer. They have the minds of children happy to party in the hip hop scene. Van Gundy is old school. He will sort out the bad apples we have been watching for too long. I agree that the owner needs to keep out of the Piston operations and let real basketball people do their work.

Where's your proof Don to that statement?

Wisefan I have a close friend who lives in Atlanta. He was my college roommate. He was extremely happen when Smith signed with another team. Also, I watched a lot of Atlanta games on PASS in his last season with the Hawks and had to agree with my friend. He was a poor free throw shooter at Atlanta and it often got down to fans, the coaching staff and teammates saying what will Josh do this time when he touched the ball. 

It is puzzling to me that you or others would not be worrying about which Josh Smith will appear next season based on his play this past season. My concern is this. Can his team count on him to be a team leader? Will he do the necessary work to clean up his game? Does he have half the passion to play the right way as Labron and other stars do? We have no super star. Josh Smith is the only player on this team who might be capable of becoming a special player. Does he have it in him? Does he care enough to embrace the pain it takes relating to off season work to get better both mentally and physically. I am an old coach. How many players have we all seen that had potential but didn't have the drive it takes to get to the next level? I watched NBA TV on Michael Jordan recently. He talked about all the hard work he and his teammates endured to get to the top. Many NBA players have limited potential and exceed the physical gifts they were born with. Those players to rise above without the special physical gifts might be the most beautiful thing for me. But maybe the flip side of that are seeing players with amazing gifts who just don't care enough to do the damn work it takes to become great players. Smith is a dangerous player for coaches because you can never predict where his mind is at. Can you count on him on a certain day to lead a team or help other teammates get better? He hasn't shown any of those high character traits that I love. It seems that you and others believe in Josh Smith. What are you basing your feeling on Wisefan? Is it hope? If so I am down with that. 

This coming season I want to see all the players on the same page helping each other to get better and never taking a play off like they did this past season. I don't care if they win or lose. We need a change of culture and I am sure that SVG will demand this one thing from his players or they will somehow be gone. If Smith doesn't show a complete committment to the team he will be gone and I won't be unhappy about it. It is so easy in the summer to forget about the missed free throws and while you are missing them you are standing a foot behind the free throw line. I know of one other player who did that but he shot a high percentage. And I can't forget Smith jacking up those 3 point shots early in the shot clock or playing only one side of the floor. A team needs to share the basketball to ever be effective. Will he take the time to get to know his teammates and form a bond with them? There are a lot of questions and I want Josh Smith to prove what kind of teammate he really is next year. I believe that this Piston team played much better without smith over the last two weeks of the season. Do you disagree with that statement? Monroe and Drummond seemed to have better chemistry. Of course Siva was in the rotation and passed the basketball better than the other point guards. 

This is a new era and I am excited. I doubt that in 3 years many of our current players will still be on this Piston team. We will be seeing a better brand of basketball so I am not getting very excited about what this current group will bring to the table next year. I didn't enjoy watching this team last year and that means I didn't enjoy watching the players that were out on the floor representing the Pistons. If you deny that Josh Smith was not part of the problem, then you must be Smith's agent.

[WTF]

How can I not like this basketball player? He does all the right things for the game. After the game last night, Labron talked about the hard work he does in the off season to get better. He continues to work his butt off to work on the things he feels might be weak or could get a lot better. You see it on the court this time of year by all the players who put in the necessary work when the fans are not watching. I wonder about some of our players. I know Kyle Singler is one of those players who loves to work on his weaknesses. You have to love to push yourself to always try to get better at whatever you do. Here we have a guy who is ultra rich killing himself in workouts when nobody is watching. That is a beautiful thing. Have any reporters ever interviewed Josh Smith in the summer or investigated what he is doing in the off season? That is my complaint with Smith. He could be a fantastic player but it is obvious that he doesn't put in much of any work at all in the off season. A guy like Smith should be shooting free throws at a 85% clip at least. He should be a better outside shooter and know all the offensive and defensive plays. Can fans count on him in the clutch. He has never been a player a team could rely on in the 4th quarter. Did any of you Smith supporters know that? I knew that when he was will Atlanta. His teammates didn't trust his decision making ability in the clutch. Can Stan transform Smith into an elite player? This is the thing I am hoping for but somebody needs to get on him to steer him in the right direction now. Some on Josh work your ass off and show how good you can be. 

Few teams have a player with Labron's mindset. But many put in a lot of work in the off season having good intentions. If you put in the work you have higher expectations in yourself. Somehow Detroit has signed many players who are content to coast in the summer. They have the minds of children happy to party in the hip hop scene. Van Gundy is old school. He will sort out the bad apples we have been watching for too long. I agree that the owner needs to keep out of the Piston operations and let real basketball people do their work.

Where's your proof Don to that statement?

[Sparma]

I'm no Drew Sharp fan, in general. I think Ellis is pretty good, and Goodwill okay. The beat guys will rarely give you the straight dope, but they do know a lot. In Sharp's case I had the sense he was conveying an insider's version of things, maybe something Dumars whispered in his ear on the way out? I agree that suspicion's called for. But these guys know stuff we don't have access too, if only they'd ever give it to us straight.

Yes, my favorite scenario after that dreadful Gordon trade would have been to draft MCW, to sign Iguodala, and to resign Calderon. I do think Joe tried with Iguodala, but he preferred G.S.

Sparma, you wanted Calderon resigned and Iguodala signed in FA? I wanted Smith and Iguodala signed, along with the drafting of Trey Burke; isn't it strange that most posters wanted other than what Joe Dumars provided? I believe that with either of our "wants" having being met, we'd have made the playoffs and your projection of the 4th seed and around the 20th pick would have come to fruition...my whole point is, that's not what happened; water under the bridge...a non-story, let's move on.

Perhaps I was a little too reckless with my recounting of the facts, but I offer a cautionary note to you my brother, trust and put faith in those writers at your own peril. They're masters of misdirection.

[Oracle]

How can I not like this basketball player? He does all the right things for the game. After the game last night, Labron talked about the hard work he does in the off season to get better. He continues to work his butt off to work on the things he feels might be weak or could get a lot better. You see it on the court this time of year by all the players who put in the necessary work when the fans are not watching. I wonder about some of our players. I know Kyle Singler is one of those players who loves to work on his weaknesses. You have to love to push yourself to always try to get better at whatever you do. Here we have a guy who is ultra rich killing himself in workouts when nobody is watching. That is a beautiful thing. Have any reporters ever interviewed Josh Smith in the summer or investigated what he is doing in the off season? That is my complaint with Smith. He could be a fantastic player but it is obvious that he doesn't put in much of any work at all in the off season. A guy like Smith should be shooting free throws at a 85% clip at least. He should be a better outside shooter and know all the offensive and defensive plays. Can fans count on him in the clutch. He has never been a player a team could rely on in the 4th quarter. Did any of you Smith supporters know that? I knew that when he was will Atlanta. His teammates didn't trust his decision making ability in the clutch. Can Stan transform Smith into an elite player? This is the thing I am hoping for but somebody needs to get on him to steer him in the right direction now. Some on Josh work your ass off and show how good you can be. 

Few teams have a player with Labron's mindset. But many put in a lot of work in the off season having good intentions. If you put in the work you have higher expectations in yourself. Somehow Detroit has signed many players who are content to coast in the summer. They have the minds of children happy to party in the hip hop scene. Van Gundy is old school. He will sort out the bad apples we have been watching for too long. I agree that the owner needs to keep out of the Piston operations and let real basketball people do their work.

I guess it takes a lot of work to stay skinny, play "me" ball, and drag around 8 million dollars through the bank as Brandon Jennings does for the Detroit Pistons!

Selling drugs, oops, when you're making that kind of cash, you can just give them away with the hope that you can get other players to be just as bad as you are!

All kidding aside, I too was impressed with LeBron! What a player!!!

When he came into the league he was a questionable midrange shooter, he didn't do 3 pointers and he couldn't shoot free throws! He also was a putrid defender and only had a bully body to get to the rim.

But he always was a willing passer and a person that knew that he had to get better and the personality to pull it off!

What he did to the Spurs last night was a thing of beauty, and the Heat did it on defense!

The east may be weak, but one thing about the top of the east, it always produces a team that plays stellar defense in the playoffs!

The Spurs can play better, but if they don't figure out how to attack this Heat defense, they're going to struggle!

[Oracle]

The players that secured contracts as players for the Pistons forgot one basic fact. You need to play basketball as a team. Basketball involves 5 players who all have to play together before the team can be effective. That means you need to play as a team on offense and defense. Isn't that the one basic thing we fans didn't see over the past 5 or 6 seasons? Somehow some of our players didn't want to give an honest effort on defense or they lacked the knowledge or physical gifts to play the right way. What are we seeing in this finals? Attention to detail by both teams is amazing. All players who get playing time are focused on both ends of the floor. How many times over the past 5 or 6 years have we witnessed Stuckey, Bynum, Jennings, Gordon, Charlie V, Drummond, and Monroe forget their defensive assignments?? Was it over a 100 times or a 1000 times? And on offense the same is true. Notice how both the Heat and the Spurs are spreading the court and playing both sides of the floor. Our guys didn't do that. Jennings and Smith played one side of the floor. We watched primitive basketball. That is why I kept saying we are watching street ball. That kind of basketball is dull and ego driven not team driven style. That is why I hated this team last season. Is is possible for our current players to ever play the right way? That is a huge question that Stan must figure out soon. The talent is not there in my opinion. We do not have real basketball players.

Don, you raise a lot of good questions, but I'm willing to see if a powerful new coach, with real basketball expectations, stressing defense and putting people in the right positions to succeed can get more out of some of these guys!

While there is one guy who I think had real bad character issues, Jennings, he is young and intelligent, and in the right system, might be able to turn it around.

However, I think it was Seb that said SVG is likely building these guys up for slaughter!

I agree, I think you have to show possible trade partners that these guys have value, and you're going to get that value from them, to make the negotiations work!

SVG appears to be one of the smartest coaches we've had since Larry Brown! Flip was very good, but I think SVG is smarter!

So I'm willing to wait to pass judgement.

I think SVG will either move a lot of these guys or get the most out of them, in effect build up their stock and then move them, but slugs WILL be moved sooner or later!

Oracle one critical move has to be made before the season starts and I am sure Stan knows it. Unless Siva can step up and become a reliable point guard, either the Pistons need to sign a vet point guard or draft a point guard with the 2nd round pick. What if Utah drafts a point guard in the first round? Would it be possible to make a trade to get Burke? I just can't believe that Stan will rely on Jennings. I suspect his minutes will be cut to around 7 to 15 minutes a game if he is not traded.

 SVG will not put all of his PG eggs in the Jennings basket, and Siva isn't capable of steeping up enough to fill those shoes!

We will need a veteran PG to come off the bench, but is capable of starting if needed!

We also need to draft a PG if a good one is available in the 2nd round!

Murph wanted us to draft Shabazz Bozie Napier  at #8. While I didn't like him so early, IMO, it's possible that he could be there early in the 2nd round where he would then be a steal, IMO!

So yeah, I agree, we have to address the PG position while building Jennings up in the press so that we have some hope of moving his ass!

[cool breeze]

How can I not like this basketball player? He does all the right things for the game. After the game last night, Labron talked about the hard work he does in the off season to get better. He continues to work his butt off to work on the things he feels might be weak or could get a lot better. You see it on the court this time of year by all the players who put in the necessary work when the fans are not watching. I wonder about some of our players. I know Kyle Singler is one of those players who loves to work on his weaknesses. You have to love to push yourself to always try to get better at whatever you do. Here we have a guy who is ultra rich killing himself in workouts when nobody is watching. That is a beautiful thing. Have any reporters ever interviewed Josh Smith in the summer or investigated what he is doing in the off season? That is my complaint with Smith. He could be a fantastic player but it is obvious that he doesn't put in much of any work at all in the off season. A guy like Smith should be shooting free throws at a 85% clip at least. He should be a better outside shooter and know all the offensive and defensive plays. Can fans count on him in the clutch. He has never been a player a team could rely on in the 4th quarter. Did any of you Smith supporters know that? I knew that when he was will Atlanta. His teammates didn't trust his decision making ability in the clutch. Can Stan transform Smith into an elite player? This is the thing I am hoping for but somebody needs to get on him to steer him in the right direction now. Some on Josh work your ass off and show how good you can be. 

Few teams have a player with Labron's mindset. But many put in a lot of work in the off season having good intentions. If you put in the work you have higher expectations in yourself. Somehow Detroit has signed many players who are content to coast in the summer. They have the minds of children happy to party in the hip hop scene. Van Gundy is old school. He will sort out the bad apples we have been watching for too long. I agree that the owner needs to keep out of the Piston operations and let real basketball people do their work.

[cool breeze]

The players that secured contracts as players for the Pistons forgot one basic fact. You need to play basketball as a team. Basketball involves 5 players who all have to play together before the team can be effective. That means you need to play as a team on offense and defense. Isn't that the one basic thing we fans didn't see over the past 5 or 6 seasons? Somehow some of our players didn't want to give an honest effort on defense or they lacked the knowledge or physical gifts to play the right way. What are we seeing in this finals? Attention to detail by both teams is amazing. All players who get playing time are focused on both ends of the floor. How many times over the past 5 or 6 years have we witnessed Stuckey, Bynum, Jennings, Gordon, Charlie V, Drummond, and Monroe forget their defensive assignments?? Was it over a 100 times or a 1000 times? And on offense the same is true. Notice how both the Heat and the Spurs are spreading the court and playing both sides of the floor. Our guys didn't do that. Jennings and Smith played one side of the floor. We watched primitive basketball. That is why I kept saying we are watching street ball. That kind of basketball is dull and ego driven not team driven style. That is why I hated this team last season. Is is possible for our current players to ever play the right way? That is a huge question that Stan must figure out soon. The talent is not there in my opinion. We do not have real basketball players.

Don, you raise a lot of good questions, but I'm willing to see if a powerful new coach, with real basketball expectations, stressing defense and putting people in the right positions to succeed can get more out of some of these guys!

While there is one guy who I think had real bad character issues, Jennings, he is young and intelligent, and in the right system, might be able to turn it around.

However, I think it was Seb that said SVG is likely building these guys up for slaughter!

I agree, I think you have to show possible trade partners that these guys have value, and you're going to get that value from them, to make the negotiations work!

SVG appears to be one of the smartest coaches we've had since Larry Brown! Flip was very good, but I think SVG is smarter!

So I'm willing to wait to pass judgement.

I think SVG will either move a lot of these guys or get the most out of them, in effect build up their stock and then move them, but slugs WILL be moved sooner or later!

Oracle one critical move has to be made before the season starts and I am sure Stan knows it. Unless Siva can step up and become a reliable point guard, either the Pistons need to sign a vet point guard or draft a point guard with the 2nd round pick. What if Utah drafts a point guard in the first round? Would it be possible to make a trade to get Burke? I just can't believe that Stan will rely on Jennings. I suspect his minutes will be cut to around 7 to 15 minutes a game if he is not traded.

[deusXango]

Sparma, you wanted Calderon resigned and Iguodala signed in FA? I wanted Smith and Iguodala signed, along with the drafting of Trey Burke; isn't it strange that most posters wanted other than what Joe Dumars provided? I believe that with either of our "wants" having being met, we'd have made the playoffs and your projection of the 4th seed and around the 20th pick would have come to fruition...my whole point is, that's not what happened; water under the bridge...a non-story, let's move on.

Perhaps I was a little too reckless with my recounting of the facts, but I offer a cautionary note to you my brother, trust and put faith in those writers at your own peril. They're masters of misdirection.

[Sparma]

Sounds like a straw man argument, Deus, rather than a fair depiction, I think, of Sharp's position or certainly of my own. It's not that Gores self-destructively squandered resources and opportunities in order to bring Joe down.

What I can endorse, drawing from Sharp's case, is the idea that Gores took reckless chances, making a series of long shot gambles. Sharp underplays that Gores' basic motivation was positive: he hoped those bets would pay off, that the Pistons would be in the playoffs, nicely set up for the future. For instance, as a certified critic of the Gordon trade from day 1, I can still acknowledge that had signings last summer paid off (for me, those would have been Iquodala and Calderon), had the Pistons gained, let's say, a #4 seed, and the pick would have been at #20 or so, the gamble would have paid off. Granted amnesty still would have been preferable.

But that said, if the bets failed, there would be for Gores a silver lining to those failures, in that he could bring in his handpicked regime (remember that at the SVG opening interview Gores said it was the biggest day in his ownership).

That's putting it a bit different than Sharp, who understates Joe's accountability and overstates negative intentions Gores may have had. But I think even Sharp's version is way, way, different than what you're attributing to him, Deus. In the end, I'm not going to defend Sharp word for word, but I do think his depiction gets at a significant portion of what happened.

Gentlemen, why are we giving any credence to writers like Sharpe, Goodwill, and Ellis? These are some of the most treacherous knuckleheads that's ever slumped over a keyboard (as far as providing fans with honest information) and should be treated as such, by reading their articles with an openly suspicious mind.

Let me get my head around what's being promoted here; Tom Gores wove this spider web like conspiracy around Joe to discredit and fire him   a plan that's costing him tens of millions because, as the new sheriff in town, he didn't have the stones to walk into Joe's office, the first day and say you're no longer needed? He put the pressure on Joe to bid against himself in pursuing Jennings with that outrageous sign & trade deal...he made a "move heaven and earth" type offer to acquire Jennings, a player that no team (including the one who held his rights) wanted any parts of, because of Tom Gores? Is the Brooklyn Bridge still up for sale? I'm trying to imagine Joe, reared back in his chair, with Gores on his knuckles on Joe's desktop, beet red in the face, eyes bulging, with spittle coming from his mouth, shouting, "you'd better not take that kid from Michigan; what's his name, oh yeah, Burke!" "Under no circumstances will I let my investment in the new suites go to waste Joe; we've got to be entertaining, get me a clown! I know, how about you resign that Bynum fellow?" Knowing the emptying seats may be a problem, he further leaned on Joe to bring back Billups; his popularity within the fan community was sure to fill up the Palace and it didn't matter that he'd be sitting on the side in suits for 4/5th of the season.

With last years self-sabotage alone, I can see how one would think that the Maggette for Gordon and a first round pick being pushed down Joe's throat by Gores would sound feasible. It was a cost saving measure and Joe knew it, that's why he didn't get up and say "I quit!" Was it Dumars pride that allowed him to stay bent over while Gores kept giving it to him?

This is not a rehash of Joe Dumars shortcomings, but a trip down the memory lane of Tom Gores ownership to where we are today; new owner, new mistakes, new ideas, and a brand new approach to how this franchise will be ran (hopefully with a high degree of success). The newness that matters is the new president and GM, who's not had the benefit of one year of trial & error to judge if Tom Gores is on the right track; has he learned from past mistakes? Will he interfere or stand aside? Will this team bounce back? 2-3 years from now, will we be able to look back down the road from whence we came and see how relatively quick, Tom Gores served our desires to get back on top? Where I'm at is here and now; Joe's gone, let him go! SVG is here, let's give him our support! Tom Gores owns the team we staunchly support, let's take an open-minded approach with the man and leave the knuckleheads out of it...after all, we got each other.

[deusXango]

Xango you should know that I don't give A DAMN who post what. I don't always read names. This forum is fun and not to be take too serious. You miss avatars? You don't read names, but you read all of the posted thoughts and understand them? You bullsh!tting me.

So now that you have let me know it was you who said starting Drummonds was premature. I can talk S.H.I.T to you DIRECTLY!!   


Imagine you're  Drummonds after your rookie year and this GM azzhole (let's call him Mr DeusXango Dick Head General Manager) walks up to you and says this...Mr. DeusXango Dick Head GM, I like the sound of that...always refer to me as Mister, 'ya hear me kid?

Hey kid I know we were A lottery team last year, I know we suck, I know we get out rebounded every night, I know we don't have any size, I know our best big is flat foot and slow, I know you can run the pick and roll with the best of em, I know guys your size don't really exist in the NBA anymore, I know you have hands that catch everything close by you, I know your the best shot blocker on our team, i know your the best re-bounder on our team, i know people will pay to come watch you play, I know all this. This is not a conversation to be held between a GM and player, numb nuts.


BUT I DON"T WANT TO START YOU BECAUSE IT MIGHT BE PREMATURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come on now. Let's be real for 2 seconds. That sounds like some STUPID S.H.I.T doesn't it? What sounds like some stupid sh!t to me is not saying that your buddy, Greg Monroe, is going into his contract year, is our veteran center who's not played with a quality PF since he's been a Piston, so we're going to see how he and Josh Smith work out this year, and oh yeah, those middling minutes you got last year will be increased to at least 30 a night this year.

I could never look A man in his eyes and tell him his hard work and success is premature! That's A old mans way of thinking. I would never want to work for you! I don't know why not; I pay good slave wages...2 bowls of gruel a day, a shanty out back to sleep in, and I promise not to ever beat you...come on man, think about it.

Pee Boy, Drummond has to work extra hard now that he's been exposed on the defensive end and how raw he is offensively, and what a liability he is at the FT line...he would have had a great deal more mystery going for him if only he had gone up against the NBA's 2nd units (with total domination) and would probably have corrected some of those game defects during last season. Premature is simply, before it's time and anyone who thought it was time for Drummond to start at the beginning of last season, well let's say, they think like the Mighty Phillip Boy!

[deusXango]

Gentlemen, why are we giving any credence to writers like Sharpe, Goodwill, and Ellis? These are some of the most treacherous knuckleheads that's ever slumped over a keyboard (as far as providing fans with honest information) and should be treated as such, by reading their articles with an openly suspicious mind.

Let me get my head around what's being promoted here; Tom Gores wove this spider web like conspiracy around Joe to discredit and fire him   a plan that's costing him tens of millions because, as the new sheriff in town, he didn't have the stones to walk into Joe's office, the first day and say you're no longer needed? He put the pressure on Joe to bid against himself in pursuing Jennings with that outrageous sign & trade deal...he made a "move heaven and earth" type offer to acquire Jennings, a player that no team (including the one who held his rights) wanted any parts of, because of Tom Gores? Is the Brooklyn Bridge still up for sale? I'm trying to imagine Joe, reared back in his chair, with Gores on his knuckles on Joe's desktop, beet red in the face, eyes bulging, with spittle coming from his mouth, shouting, "you'd better not take that kid from Michigan; what's his name, oh yeah, Burke!" "Under no circumstances will I let my investment in the new suites go to waste Joe; we've got to be entertaining, get me a clown! I know, how about you resign that Bynum fellow?" Knowing the emptying seats may be a problem, he further leaned on Joe to bring back Billups; his popularity within the fan community was sure to fill up the Palace and it didn't matter that he'd be sitting on the side in suits for 4/5th of the season.

With last years self-sabotage alone, I can see how one would think that the Maggette for Gordon and a first round pick being pushed down Joe's throat by Gores would sound feasible. It was a cost saving measure and Joe knew it, that's why he didn't get up and say "I quit!" Was it Dumars pride that allowed him to stay bent over while Gores kept giving it to him?

This is not a rehash of Joe Dumars shortcomings, but a trip down the memory lane of Tom Gores ownership to where we are today; new owner, new mistakes, new ideas, and a brand new approach to how this franchise will be ran (hopefully with a high degree of success). The newness that matters is the new president and GM, who's not had the benefit of one year of trial & error to judge if Tom Gores is on the right track; has he learned from past mistakes? Will he interfere or stand aside? Will this team bounce back? 2-3 years from now, will we be able to look back down the road from whence we came and see how relatively quick, Tom Gores served our desires to get back on top? Where I'm at is here and now; Joe's gone, let him go! SVG is here, let's give him our support! Tom Gores owns the team we staunchly support, let's take an open-minded approach with the man and leave the knuckleheads out of it...after all, we got each other.

[Sparma]

Wise, you need to get your book going! We see Dumars' regime differently, as we know. No need to rehash all of our differences. Again, I find myself in agreement with Oracle's comments on Dumars.

Sharp does go farther then I feel comfortable with though, as illustrated by this statement: "But Gores willingly gambled with the trade, same as with his boastful declaration, "We had better make the playoffs next year," and equally hard-headed personnel demands (Hello, Mr. Smith. Hello, Brandon Jennings) because he knew he wouldn't have to pay the outstanding debt if the risks failed."

I agree that Gores made an unwise gamble in the Gordon trade and that his premature pressing for results led to bad decisions. But Sharp seems to downplay the con-responsibility of Joe in the bad decisions. And I sharply disagree when he says "because he knew he wouldn't have to pay the outstanding debt if the risks failed." If he means something like Gores not being fully committed to Joe and not minding a regime claim, okay. But I'm confused by what not paying the "outstanding debt" even means because now Gores' stuck with 3 years of Smith's contract and 2 of Jennings' and with that posing a major challenge/ problem to his chosen new regime. He certainly didn't walk away from those risks. And I think he's taken a lot of heat for the loss of what turned out to be a #9 pick. And Gores will feel the effect of that loss for some time.

So even I think Sharp overstates, although I find his depiction generally compelling. I'd be curious to know how much of it is just his take and how much of it is insider knowledge (eg "hard-headed personnel demands").

[WTF]

I'm not usually much of a Drew Sharp fan because he puts things dramatically and sourly in order to draw attention.  I think he's on to something in the statement below though, even if stated in his usual stark manner.

"Gores micromanaged Joe Dumars, a result of inheriting the former Pistons' chief executive rather than identifying him as his preferred choice for running his basketball organization. Gores' fingerprints were on every miscalculation the last three years.

Dumars surrendered the Pistons' 2014 draft pick to Charlotte as enticement for the Hornets' taking the last two years of Ben Gordon's hideous contract off the Pistons' books under direct orders from ownership. Gores wouldn't listen. The best decision_the obvious decision_was amnestying Gordon's contract. Write him a fat check for $25 million, and write off the loss from the salary cap.

But Gores willingly gambled with the trade, same as with his boastful declaration, "We had better make the playoffs next year," and equally hard-headed personnel demands (Hello, Mr. Smith. Hello, Brandon Jennings) because he knew he wouldn't have to pay the outstanding debt if the risks failed.

Dumars would pay with his job."

Read more here: http://www.sunherald.com/2014/06/08/5635233/drew-sharp-van-gundy-can-really.html#storylink=cpy

First, it was Bill Davidson was too cheap and Joe couldn't spend the money to address 5 years of a declining bench so we watched a perfectly good core group of players go to waste. - This is 100% true!

Second, It was Mrs. Davidson who road block Joe for making any moves to improve the team but if I'm not mistaken trading CB, and acquiring Ben and Charlie, firing his 3rd coach in a row all happened well the team was still in possession of Mrs. Davidson.  No one forced Joe to fire Flip nor did anyone force Joe to sign Gordon and Charlie when there were clearly better options. Curry, Kuester and Flip all fired with money still due on their contracts and this was all scapegoated to be Karen Davidson fault.  - This is true as well, he wasn't making excuses for any of this, this is all you bring this stuff up. You have to stick to what he said, not what YOU want to talk about!

Third, So if Gores was paying real attention as he claimed to be a fan of the Pistons he was somehow suppose to come in and give Joe free reign to do business as usual.  Gores might not have been willing to fork over 25 million to Ben and buy Rip out his contract but what he didn't do was force Joe to make the deal he did.  Joe laid that draft pick out there not Gores.  Gores likely told Joe he would do one or the other and had him decided on which one to do amnesty Gordon or buy out Rip and dumbass made the wrong choice.  Why in the hell as a owner would you buy out 24 million and then amnesty another 25 million.  - That's fine, so let Gores catch the heat, not Joe!

Problem is there was always some ready made excuses for why Joe couldn't do his Job(Wrong, see below)!, there was always some coach or owner to place blame on for his failure because the stood in the way of his genius. Right!  Lets face it Gores mandated playoffs and Joe proceeded at making the wrong decisions he made one good move and then proceeded to screw it with made ones.  Joe stood in his own way like he always has and choked when Gores put the pressure on him.  

I honestly smelt this coming I just thought it would be from Ellis. We should be long pass talking about Joe and making excuses for his failures from 2003 to 2014.  Not a single owner forced Joe into making all the bad decisions he made during his tenure problem was the free pass to screw up that the media gave him because of that 2004 title.  

Sharp was right and wrong, right because the best thing was to amnesty Gordon, but the wrong thing was to buy out Rip.  Imagine how differently Brandon first year might have been if he had Rip as an option.  To bad Joe screwed that up and the relationship damage he caused that he could no longer keep Rip on the roster.  

Sometimes I get the feeling that the local media is hoping SVG fail so they can keep this Joe was wrong crap up

I can't speak for the media, but you're drawing all of the wrong conclusions from your own points!

The things you cite are correct, but what it really says is that Dumars wasn't GM enough to either force the situation to the right conclusion, or quit!

If he wants to complain that he couldn't do this or that, those are weak excuses! You either demand to get what you need to succeed, or you do one of the following.

1. Quit because you know it's not going to work, and with his great resume, he'd probably be GM of the Nets at this point
2. Just accept all of the blame because if you don't quit, you accept the responsibility to make it work and if it doesn't it's on you!

Joe did neither, so we needed a new GM, plain and simple!

However, that article was very specific, and the specifics were accurate! You can make excuses for Gores if you want to, but that part of the deal is all him! Joe's problem is that he went along with it, and for that he needed firing!

I'm not absolving Gores from any blame no more than I would for Davidson being a cheap ass and Mrs. Davidson not giving a sh!t. Whatever Joe decided to do Gores signed off on it so he has to shoulder some blame.

What Sharp is doing is laying out the elaborate scheme that Gores intentionally laid this out so that he could used it to scapegoat Joe. You would almost have to say Gores was banking on failure, that he was banking on keeping that pick because he knew this team would suck rocks.

I didn't bring up the old Joe stuff to rehash it but simply to note that if it was some elaborate roost for outing Joe to save face or whatever Sharp is trying to imply in his article you have to ask why he would do it. Gore could have fired Joe before the ink dried on the purchase of the team, Joe could have resigned 3 years ago because he had to know he was doomed from the start.

I didn't want Gores with this team I really wanted Ilitch, but Gores is so wet behind the ears as an owner could be so I expected dumb **** out of him but I really can't buy into what Sharp is trying to lay out here. I think Gores put some trust in some of Joe decision making even if not all his decision. The part that bothers me is that even if Joe was mandated to make the playoffs he still signed Josh and traded Knight and Middleton for Jennings, he still sign CB and resigned Bynum.

We all thought this team was capable of winning close to 50 games, what if that happened? Would Joe still be gone? Then Sharp would be telling a completely different story about Gorse motives and interference. That all I'm saying

[Oracle]

I want to talk about two movies I recently saw!

I don't know how, but Liam Neeson & Tom Cruise get some great scripts!

Non-Stop, with Neeson, was a good movie, and

Edge of Tomorrow was a really good movie with Tom Cruise!

Just my opinions... good night!

[WTF]

"Look at them cheese lickers ain't they gung ho?" - Fennis

Yup, she was definitely a Ho   

This is likely a continuation of an ancient trend of lowly workers spitting in their betters food, with the twist of today that most of the spitters/lickers are DISEASED!!!

I don't like to eat out much, so watch out for the third world vendors carrying various diseases, and always watch out for those that stand for...

Truth, Justice and the Fagmarican way  

I hope they lock her trifling ass up in the same facility she was working, that sh!t is nasty. Licking cheese and sucking ice cubes who's knows what else oh nasty sh!t was doing. I hope they weren't serving hot dogs, spaghetti and mayo this old nasty bitch could have been doing anything. You just don't do sh!t like this.

[Oracle]

I'm not usually much of a Drew Sharp fan because he puts things dramatically and sourly in order to draw attention.  I think he's on to something in the statement below though, even if stated in his usual stark manner.

"Gores micromanaged Joe Dumars, a result of inheriting the former Pistons' chief executive rather than identifying him as his preferred choice for running his basketball organization. Gores' fingerprints were on every miscalculation the last three years.

Dumars surrendered the Pistons' 2014 draft pick to Charlotte as enticement for the Hornets' taking the last two years of Ben Gordon's hideous contract off the Pistons' books under direct orders from ownership. Gores wouldn't listen. The best decision_the obvious decision_was amnestying Gordon's contract. Write him a fat check for $25 million, and write off the loss from the salary cap.

But Gores willingly gambled with the trade, same as with his boastful declaration, "We had better make the playoffs next year," and equally hard-headed personnel demands (Hello, Mr. Smith. Hello, Brandon Jennings) because he knew he wouldn't have to pay the outstanding debt if the risks failed.

Dumars would pay with his job."

Read more here: http://www.sunherald.com/2014/06/08/5635233/drew-sharp-van-gundy-can-really.html#storylink=cpy

First, it was Bill Davidson was too cheap and Joe couldn't spend the money to address 5 years of a declining bench so we watched a perfectly good core group of players go to waste. - This is 100% true!

Second, It was Mrs. Davidson who road block Joe for making any moves to improve the team but if I'm not mistaken trading CB, and acquiring Ben and Charlie, firing his 3rd coach in a row all happened well the team was still in possession of Mrs. Davidson.  No one forced Joe to fire Flip nor did anyone force Joe to sign Gordon and Charlie when there were clearly better options. Curry, Kuester and Flip all fired with money still due on their contracts and this was all scapegoated to be Karen Davidson fault.  - This is true as well, he wasn't making excuses for any of this, this is all you bring this stuff up. You have to stick to what he said, not what YOU want to talk about!

Third, So if Gores was paying real attention as he claimed to be a fan of the Pistons he was somehow suppose to come in and give Joe free reign to do business as usual.  Gores might not have been willing to fork over 25 million to Ben and buy Rip out his contract but what he didn't do was force Joe to make the deal he did.  Joe laid that draft pick out there not Gores.  Gores likely told Joe he would do one or the other and had him decided on which one to do amnesty Gordon or buy out Rip and dumbass made the wrong choice.  Why in the hell as a owner would you buy out 24 million and then amnesty another 25 million.  - That's fine, so let Gores catch the heat, not Joe!

Problem is there was always some ready made excuses for why Joe couldn't do his Job(Wrong, see below)!, there was always some coach or owner to place blame on for his failure because the stood in the way of his genius. Right!  Lets face it Gores mandated playoffs and Joe proceeded at making the wrong decisions he made one good move and then proceeded to screw it with made ones.  Joe stood in his own way like he always has and choked when Gores put the pressure on him.  

I honestly smelt this coming I just thought it would be from Ellis. We should be long pass talking about Joe and making excuses for his failures from 2003 to 2014.  Not a single owner forced Joe into making all the bad decisions he made during his tenure problem was the free pass to screw up that the media gave him because of that 2004 title.  

Sharp was right and wrong, right because the best thing was to amnesty Gordon, but the wrong thing was to buy out Rip.  Imagine how differently Brandon first year might have been if he had Rip as an option.  To bad Joe screwed that up and the relationship damage he caused that he could no longer keep Rip on the roster.  

Sometimes I get the feeling that the local media is hoping SVG fail so they can keep this Joe was wrong crap up

I can't speak for the media, but you're drawing all of the wrong conclusions from your own points!

The things you cite are correct, but what it really says is that Dumars wasn't GM enough to either force the situation to the right conclusion, or quit!

If he wants to complain that he couldn't do this or that, those are weak excuses! You either demand to get what you need to succeed, or you do one of the following.

1. Quit because you know it's not going to work, and with his great resume, he'd probably be GM of the Nets at this point
2. Just accept all of the blame because if you don't quit, you accept the responsibility to make it work and if it doesn't it's on you!

Joe did neither, so we needed a new GM, plain and simple!

However, that article was very specific, and the specifics were accurate! You can make excuses for Gores if you want to, but that part of the deal is all him! Joe's problem is that he went along with it, and for that he needed firing!

[WTF]

Considering that Andre has 2 years left on his rookie deal and becomes a restricted free agent after he'll do whatever the hell SVG tells him to do and very much like it. Unless he comes in next season with a comparable offense game to both Moose and Josh and becomes a better rim protector he shouldn't start and maybe make better than 40% of his FT's. No one is saying he shouldn't play 30 minutes.

[WTF]

I'm not usually much of a Drew Sharp fan because he puts things dramatically and sourly in order to draw attention.  I think he's on to something in the statement below though, even if stated in his usual stark manner.

"Gores micromanaged Joe Dumars, a result of inheriting the former Pistons' chief executive rather than identifying him as his preferred choice for running his basketball organization. Gores' fingerprints were on every miscalculation the last three years.

Dumars surrendered the Pistons' 2014 draft pick to Charlotte as enticement for the Hornets' taking the last two years of Ben Gordon's hideous contract off the Pistons' books under direct orders from ownership. Gores wouldn't listen. The best decision_the obvious decision_was amnestying Gordon's contract. Write him a fat check for $25 million, and write off the loss from the salary cap.

But Gores willingly gambled with the trade, same as with his boastful declaration, "We had better make the playoffs next year," and equally hard-headed personnel demands (Hello, Mr. Smith. Hello, Brandon Jennings) because he knew he wouldn't have to pay the outstanding debt if the risks failed.

Dumars would pay with his job."

Read more here: http://www.sunherald.com/2014/06/08/5635233/drew-sharp-van-gundy-can-really.html#storylink=cpy

First, it was Bill Davidson was too cheap and Joe couldn't spend the money to address 5 years of a declining bench so we watched a perfectly good core group of players go to waste.

Second, It was Mrs. Davidson who road block Joe for making any moves to improve the team but if I'm not mistaken trading CB, and acquiring Ben and Charlie, firing his 3rd coach in a row all happened well the team was still in possession of Mrs. Davidson. No one forced Joe to fire Flip nor did anyone force Joe to sign Gordon and Charlie when there were clearly better options. Curry, Kuester and Flip all fired with money still due on their contracts and this was all scapegoated to be Karen Davidson fault.

Third, So if Gores was paying real attention as he claimed to be a fan of the Pistons he was somehow suppose to come in and give Joe free reign to do business as usual. Gores might not have been willing to fork over 25 million to Ben and buy Rip out his contract but what he didn't do was force Joe to make the deal he did. Joe laid that draft pick out there not Gores. Gores likely told Joe he would do one or the other and had him decided on which one to do amnesty Gordon or buy out Rip and dumbass made the wrong choice. Why in the hell as a owner would you buy out 24 million and then amnesty another 25 million.

Problem is there was always some ready made excuses for why Joe couldn't do his Job!, there was always some coach or owner to place blame on for his failure because the stood in the way of his genius. Right! Lets face it Gores mandated playoffs and Joe proceeded at making the wrong decisions he made one good move and then proceeded to screw it with made ones. Joe stood in his own way like he always has and choked when Gores put the pressure on him.

I honestly smelt this coming I just thought it would be from Ellis. We should be long pass talking about Joe and making excuses for his failures from 2003 to 2014. Not a single owner forced Joe into making all the bad decisions he made during his tenure problem was the free pass to screw up that the media gave him because of that 2004 title.

Sharp was right and wrong, right because the best thing was to amnesty Gordon, but the wrong thing was to buy out Rip. Imagine how differently Brandon first year might have been if he had Rip as an option. To bad Joe screwed that up and the relationship damage he caused that he could no longer keep Rip on the roster.

Sometimes I get the feeling that the local media is hoping SVG fail so they can keep this Joe was wrong crap up

[Phil-Good]

Xango you should know that I don't give A DAMN who post what. I don't always read names. This forum is fun and not to be take too serious.

So now that you have let me know it was you who said starting Drummonds was premature. I can talk S.H.I.T to you DIRECTLY!!   


Imagine you're Drummonds after your rookie year and this GM azzhole (let's call him Mr DeusXango Dick Head General Manager) walks up to you and says this...

Hey kid I know we were A lottery team last year, I know we suck, I know we get out rebounded every night, I know we don't have any size, I know our best big is flat foot and slow, I know you can run the pick and roll with the best of em, I know guys your size don't really exist in the NBA anymore, I know you have hands that catch everything close by you, I know your the best shot blocker on our team, i know your the best re-bounder on our team, i know people will pay to come watch you play, I know all this.


BUT I DON"T WANT TO START YOU BECAUSE IT MIGHT BE PREMATURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come on now. Let's be real for 2 seconds. That sounds like some STUPID S.H.I.T doesn't it?

I could never look A man in his eyes and tell him his hard work and success is premature! That's A old mans way of thinking. I would never want to work for you!

[Oracle]

I'm not usually much of a Drew Sharp fan because he puts things dramatically and sourly in order to draw attention.  I think he's on to something in the statement below though, even if stated in his usual stark manner.

"Gores micromanaged Joe Dumars, a result of inheriting the former Pistons' chief executive rather than identifying him as his preferred choice for running his basketball organization. Gores' fingerprints were on every miscalculation the last three years.

Dumars surrendered the Pistons' 2014 draft pick to Charlotte as enticement for the Hornets' taking the last two years of Ben Gordon's hideous contract off the Pistons' books under direct orders from ownership. Gores wouldn't listen. The best decision_the obvious decision_was amnestying Gordon's contract. Write him a fat check for $25 million, and write off the loss from the salary cap.

But Gores willingly gambled with the trade, same as with his boastful declaration, "We had better make the playoffs next year," and equally hard-headed personnel demands (Hello, Mr. Smith. Hello, Brandon Jennings) because he knew he wouldn't have to pay the outstanding debt if the risks failed.

Dumars would pay with his job."

Read more here: http://www.sunherald.com/2014/06/08/5635233/drew-sharp-van-gundy-can-really.html#storylink=cpy

Joe made a lot of mistakes, but they all weren't his!

The nails in his coffin were put there by Gores, but IMO, if he just could have resisted the Jennings move & drafted a PG, he might have fared a bit better!

[Oracle]

The players that secured contracts as players for the Pistons forgot one basic fact. You need to play basketball as a team. Basketball involves 5 players who all have to play together before the team can be effective. That means you need to play as a team on offense and defense. Isn't that the one basic thing we fans didn't see over the past 5 or 6 seasons? Somehow some of our players didn't want to give an honest effort on defense or they lacked the knowledge or physical gifts to play the right way. What are we seeing in this finals? Attention to detail by both teams is amazing. All players who get playing time are focused on both ends of the floor. How many times over the past 5 or 6 years have we witnessed Stuckey, Bynum, Jennings, Gordon, Charlie V, Drummond, and Monroe forget their defensive assignments?? Was it over a 100 times or a 1000 times? And on offense the same is true. Notice how both the Heat and the Spurs are spreading the court and playing both sides of the floor. Our guys didn't do that. Jennings and Smith played one side of the floor. We watched primitive basketball. That is why I kept saying we are watching street ball. That kind of basketball is dull and ego driven not team driven style. That is why I hated this team last season. Is is possible for our current players to ever play the right way? That is a huge question that Stan must figure out soon. The talent is not there in my opinion. We do not have real basketball players.

Don, you raise a lot of good questions, but I'm willing to see if a powerful new coach, with real basketball expectations, stressing defense and putting people in the right positions to succeed can get more out of some of these guys!

While there is one guy who I think had real bad character issues, Jennings, he is young and intelligent, and in the right system, might be able to turn it around.

However, I think it was Seb that said SVG is likely building these guys up for slaughter!

I agree, I think you have to show possible trade partners that these guys have value, and you're going to get that value from them, to make the negotiations work!

SVG appears to be one of the smartest coaches we've had since Larry Brown! Flip was very good, but I think SVG is smarter!

So I'm willing to wait to pass judgement.

I think SVG will either move a lot of these guys or get the most out of them, in effect build up their stock and then move them, but slugs WILL be moved sooner or later!

[Sparma]

I'm not usually much of a Drew Sharp fan because he puts things dramatically and sourly in order to draw attention. I think he's on to something in the statement below though, even if stated in his usual stark manner.

"Gores micromanaged Joe Dumars, a result of inheriting the former Pistons' chief executive rather than identifying him as his preferred choice for running his basketball organization. Gores' fingerprints were on every miscalculation the last three years.

Dumars surrendered the Pistons' 2014 draft pick to Charlotte as enticement for the Hornets' taking the last two years of Ben Gordon's hideous contract off the Pistons' books under direct orders from ownership. Gores wouldn't listen. The best decision_the obvious decision_was amnestying Gordon's contract. Write him a fat check for $25 million, and write off the loss from the salary cap.

But Gores willingly gambled with the trade, same as with his boastful declaration, "We had better make the playoffs next year," and equally hard-headed personnel demands (Hello, Mr. Smith. Hello, Brandon Jennings) because he knew he wouldn't have to pay the outstanding debt if the risks failed.

Dumars would pay with his job."

Read more here: http://www.sunherald.com/2014/06/08/5635233/drew-sharp-van-gundy-can-really.html#storylink=cpy

[Oracle]

"Look at them cheese lickers ain't they gung ho?" - Fennis

Yup, she was definitely a Ho   

This is likely a continuation of an ancient trend of lowly workers spitting in their betters food, with the twist of today that most of the spitters/lickers are DISEASED!!!

I don't like to eat out much, so watch out for the third world vendors carrying various diseases, and always watch out for those that stand for...

Truth, Justice and the Fagmarican way  

[cool breeze]

The players that secured contracts as players for the Pistons forgot one basic fact. You need to play basketball as a team. Basketball involves 5 players who all have to play together before the team can be effective. That means you need to play as a team on offense and defense. Isn't that the one basic thing we fans didn't see over the past 5 or 6 seasons? Somehow some of our players didn't want to give an honest effort on defense or they lacked the knowledge or physical gifts to play the right way. What are we seeing in this finals? Attention to detail by both teams is amazing. All players who get playing time are focused on both ends of the floor. How many times over the past 5 or 6 years have we witnessed Stuckey, Bynum, Jennings, Gordon, Charlie V, Drummond, and Monroe forget their defensive assignments?? Was it over a 100 times or a 1000 times? And on offense the same is true. Notice how both the Heat and the Spurs are spreading the court and playing both sides of the floor. Our guys didn't do that. Jennings and Smith played one side of the floor. We watched primitive basketball. That is why I kept saying we are watching street ball. That kind of basketball is dull and ego driven not team driven style. That is why I hated this team last season. Is is possible for our current players to ever play the right way? That is a huge question that Stan must figure out soon. The talent is not there in my opinion. We do not have real basketball players.

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