Trade Deadline at 3:00 EST. ...

[Sebastian]

... and not a peep from OUR Pistons. Really folks, what are WE Pistons fans suppose to do, for the remaining 7 1/2 weeks of the season, if absolutely nothing is done to alter this f@cked up roster.

[deusXango]

Let must tell it we have 2 stupid players starting (Jennings and Smith) then we have a rookie botched pick (Pope) and then we have a lazy inconsistent underachiever (Monroe) and finally a not ready for prime-time player in (Andre). These are starters not bench players, these are main components to that combination lock.  

No truer words were ever spoken.

[WTF]

It's like a lock Don, that has more than one combination to open it! You use the wrong combination, you lose! Find the right combination, you win! It's never the combination that's the problem it's the dummy coming up with the combinations. - Oracle

How can there be a right combination when the parts inside the lock are either wrong or defected. There's no click when it should be one. There's no pointer so you're just spinning the knob and this is what the coach is face with. Seriously what combination of inept, stupid, inexperience and worthless can you put together to open up and success with this group of players.

Let must tell it we have 2 stupid players starting (Jennings and Smith) then we have a rookie botched pick (Pope) and then we have a lazy inconsistent underachiever (Monroe) and finally a not ready for prime-time player in (Andre). These are starters not bench players, these are main components to that combination lock.

[FlyDog]

Well, those Pistons/Bobcats games were certainly statement games.  Unforunately, it was the Bobcats who made the statement and not the Pistons.  And I agree with Oracle.  After getting our asses whooped by Charlotte in every game this season, it's pretty clear that the 'Cats are the better team.


But it wasn't always that way.  Michael Jordan bought the Bobcats in Feb of 2010.  At that time, the 'Cats were a playoff team, led by Stephen Jackson, Gerald Wallace and Raymond Felton, and coached by Larry Brown.  

MJ didn't like the make up of the team or the salary structure, and so he dismantled almost the entire team, and began an arduous rebuilding process.  The 'Cats rebuilt mostly on draft choices.  They drafted Walker, Kidd-Gilchrist, Zeller, Taylor and Biyombo.  Only Kidd-Gilchrist was a top 5 pick, going at #2.  And they acquired through free agency Jefferson, Sessions and McRoberts.  Gerald Henderson is the only hold-over from the pre-MJ days.  And now here they are, playoff bound once again.

So while the Pistons have been floundering for the last 4 years, hirng and firing 4 different coaches, MJ has gotten busy.  He's taken a playoff team, completely dismantled it and rebuilt it back into a younger, cheaper, better playoff team...and one with a future.  AND they have two 1st round draft choices this year, including Joe's (just to add insult to injury).

And that's how it's supposed to work in the NBA. It's a league set up to give the weaker teams a legitimate chance to incrementally improve year by year through the draft. There are no Tigers or Yankees spending their way to the top. Dumars has been a failure for damn near a decade now.

[Murph]

Well, those Pistons/Bobcats games were certainly statement games.  Unforunately, it was the Bobcats who made the statement and not the Pistons.  And I agree with Oracle.  After getting our asses whooped by Charlotte in every game this season, it's pretty clear that the 'Cats are the better team.


But it wasn't always that way.  Michael Jordan bought the Bobcats in Feb of 2010.  At that time, the 'Cats were a playoff team, led by Stephen Jackson, Gerald Wallace and Raymond Felton, and coached by Larry Brown.  

MJ didn't like the make up of the team or the salary structure, and so he dismantled almost the entire team, and began an arduous rebuilding process.  The 'Cats rebuilt mostly on draft choices.  They drafted Walker, Kidd-Gilchrist, Zeller, Taylor and Biyombo.  Only Kidd-Gilchrist was a top 5 pick, going at #2.  And they acquired through free agency Jefferson, Sessions and McRoberts.  Gerald Henderson is the only hold-over from the pre-MJ days.  And now here they are, playoff bound once again.

So while the Pistons have been floundering for the last 4 years, hirng and firing 4 different coaches, MJ has gotten busy.  He's taken a playoff team, completely dismantled it and rebuilt it back into a younger, cheaper, better playoff team...and one with a future.  AND they have two 1st round draft choices this year, including Joe's (just to add insult to injury).

[FlyDog]

Fire Joe.

[Oracle]

These two loses have NOTHING to do with lack of urgency or failure to play hard!

Let's get real! When you get your asses kicked the way the Bobcats did, you just ran into a better team, plain and simple!

Notice I didn't say more talented, even though at some positions that's certainly the case. No, the difference is that the Bobcats are a BETTER TEAM, and sorry Don, they have a real coach that knows what the heck he's doing!

No offense to Loyer, there is almost nothing he could have done in such a short period to turn this around quickly, it takes time and practice, and more importantly a plan to make this happen!

Their coach utilizes all of his weapons like a great conductor, and it's playing to rave reviews.

Now the Bobcats, while good, aren't talented enough to face down real teams yet, that could come later, but in the east, they are capable of making some noise!

Even though I hated the result, I couldn't help but be surprised and admire the job being done with that team.

Here's hoping that Gores doesn't go cheap on the next coach!

[Oracle]

Don, I hate to keep harping on this, but you just proved my case in your post.

"How about the idea of changing the players just to mix things up? Then see if this current coach can coach or not. Bring up guards from the D league and see if our big men play better with them. Bench one of the big men and play Jerebco for a month to give him confidence and the timing he needs to play his game. Why is it always the coaching and never the group of players who wear the Piston uniform who are getting their asses beat? This is like a broken record that has been playing for 5 years." - Don

Well Don, it's ALWAYS coaching because... drumroll... it's the coach that plays the lineups that you don't like!

It's like a lock Don, that has more than one combination to open it! You use the wrong combination, you lose! Find the right combination, you win!

It's never the combination that's the problem it's the dummy coming up with the combinations.

In short, most would agree that certain groups of players spell doom, but you need to stop blaming the wrong people until the players start playing their favorites.

BTW, I really wonder who would play if the players had a choice in the matter. That could be an interesting subject.

Your real complaint is that Joe forces his coach to play certain players, then blames the coach when it fails... that's what you're seeing and complaining about, and with that I agree.

Joe does this in many ways, but the most visible is salary and expectations. No coach was going to have an option to not start Jennings and Smith, or easily change it unless they commanded the stage like a Larry Brown!

So to that extent you're right, but in the final analysis, if a coach bends over, he should expect and accept a screwing... end of story!

[Oracle]

You know, the sad part is that sounded like a real interview  

[Fennis Dembo]

Dembo interviews Jennings.  Barbara Walters and Dr. Phil eat your heart out.

Dembo: What happened near the end of the game when you were given the boot?  What was that all about?
Jennings: At that exact moment I had a catharsis of fear and disgust.

Dembo: What was going on in your mind?
Jennings: I was suffering from total existential angst.  I  realized that the whole season was being figuratively flushed down the toilet right before my very eyes.

Dembo: Any other realizations?      
Jennings: Yes, Josh Smith is the basketball equivalent of the anti-Christ.  Together on the same court the two of us are like the twin girls in "The Shining".  We are scary bad.

Dembo: I see you two in like "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre".  Anyway, what other deep feelings arose from your wounded psyche?
For the first time in my career I realized that I was part of the problem and not part of the solution.  I don't know what to do.

Dembo:   You could give up all your worldly possessions, shave your head, become a monk, and join the Dalai Lama.
Jennings:  That is always an option.  Maybe I can reinvent myself and my career.

Dembo: I am afraid that ship has sailed. You bombed out on Milwaukee and now in Detroit.  You're a two time loser.
Jennings: My confidence is definitely shaken, but I think I could maybe lead the Fort Wayne Mad Ants to a Developmental League title.  Don't you think?

Dembo:  There are no bad ideas except for that one.  I heard they need a guard on the Latvian National Team.
Jennings:  I like Europe.  I played there.  I studied existentialism  in Denmark.  Kierkegaard is my main man.

Dembo: It's rumored that Dumars could be going to Cleveland.  Maybe you could join him there.  
Jennings: I love Lake Erie and the Cuyahoga River.  
Dembo: Did you know the Cuyahoga River once caught fire?
Jennings: So did the Rouge River, but don't tell anyone in Detroit.
Dembo: It is highly ironic then that your career could flame out in those locals.

Jennings:  "Up in Smoke" is my favorite movie.  
Dembo: Another appropriate indication of where your career may be headed.  Cheech and Chong are just the best.
Jennings: Hey, man, you're not wrong.

[Phil-Good]

This season was so wack! The Pistons were like A women who looks good when your drinking at night, in the dark at the club. When the Lights come on, you see what you really dealing with. A few good features but over-all, too much damage to try and repair.

Whatever happens I want to say THANKS Joe Dumars. You had one hell of A run and one hell of A career. Rock on and Be easy..  

On that note, I see you Pistons fans on the forum. I'm out!!

[cool breeze]

Coaching could help a lot, Oracle.  How long has it been since we've had a coach like the Bobcats guy?  Larry, I suppose, and Carlisle and Collins before him.  And shooting.  Someone made the point that Jennings is not a bad shooter but that he takes a lot of bad shots; from what I've seen Jennings has good form as a shooter.  Not that he's the answer (in spite of what he thinks), but there's plenty of room for better results from him.

In a way things could become real interesting tomorrow even if we stand pat.  Why doesn't Loyer just let fly down the stretch as he's likely out the door with Dumars anyway?  Can people really stop him from coaching the team as he sees fit when he's operating for the short term?  If I were him, I'd definitely mess with the big man rotation, putting either Monroe or Drummond with the subs.  It looked, very briefly, like Cheeks might be getting through to Smith about optimal use of his talents; I'd have Sheed working with him intensely (although Sheed himself would shy away from the basket more than he ever should have given his deadly array of inside moves).  I'd really try to exert some pressure on Jennings in the 4th quarter, maybe pulling him from time to time.  I'd work hard to run more of the O through Monroe.  And I experiment with defensive sets, like zone, as he's started to do.  I'd also give a good dose of minutes to Datome to see what he can do.  None of that would turn the whole season around, but it'd give you a much better idea of what's what moving forward.  And if some of it worked, you might just show the league that you've got some potential as head coach.



How about the idea of changing the players just to mix things up? Then see if this current coach can coach or not. Bring up guards from the D league and see if our big men play better with them. Bench one of the big men and play Jerebco for a month to give him confidence and the timing he needs to play his game. Why is it always the coaching and never the group of players who wear the Piston uniform who are getting their asses beat? This is like a broken record that has been playing for 5 years. Which players can any coach trust on this Piston game? Which guards can any coach trust to play good defense? The only guard who could get in a rotation for any playoff team would be Singler because he can play in a more complex half court offense and he is not a liability on defense. Piston guards are street ball players who would be sitting the bench in college if they didn't improve their ability to grasp defensive concepts and give the effort to stop someone from scoring. More and more college coaches are not giving out much playing time to the type of guards Dumars has brought to Detroit. Are some of you being honest with yourselves about these players? Remember Frank saying that he can only play players that he can trust? Well we still have several players on this team who are now playing that sat the bench under Frank's rule. Maybe Frank was a really good coach because he defied Joe Dumars and refused to play some of the guards who are now getting away with playing soft defense.  I say this coach is doing the best he can under the circumstances.  Our Piston coach would look real good if he could coach that Bobcat team. The players not the coach have turned things around in Charlotte. The players win or lose games not the coach. It is about the talent and our Pistons come up on the short end of the stick compared with the rest of the players in the league. Opponent players are taking advantage of our fundamentally unsound players. If you make it to the NBA and have a low basketball IQ, bad work ethic, and have not learned the fundamental techniques you need to be successful, then no coach can help you. It is too late. That is why the NBA needs to change the rules to only draft players after two years of college. How many years did Walker spend in college developing his game? How about Smith and Jennings did they learn a damn thing before entering the NBA? No they came in at a disadvantage and it shows. It is very difficult to become fundamentally sound after you get into the NBA and start making the big money.  

Our Pistons owner should apologize to the fans for signing so many inept guards. Stop hiding behind whatever coach you want to take the heat. Understand the mistakes you have made as an owner and do something about it. To start, I would terminate Joe Dumars contract and remove his entire staff. Pick out a young executive from the Pacers or another successful program and start over. I go to a lot of college games and seem to always see representitives from the Suns, Pacers and Spurs. Those organizations work hard to get better. There is no way that those 3 teams would ever sign the two high priced players that Detroit added this summer. Does it make any sense to add young players who have been rejected by their previous team because their own teammates didn't like playing with them? Smith and Jennings will always be up and down players who will make critical mental mistakes at the most important moments. Lack of discipline will result in them missing big free throws that Billups always seemed to be able to make. That is why coach Frank and other coaches talk about TRUST. And that is why Sir Charles made those comments at the All Star game. This team doesn't have a sleeper type guy like Prince was when he was a rookie. The team is full of the same type of players especially among the guards. That is why I couldn't believe it when Dumars gave that two year contract to Bynum when he had Jennings coming in. Jennings, Bynum, Stuckey, KCP all on the same team. That is incredible. And goes right up near the top of all screw ups just below the drafting of Darko, White and KCP. How would the big men look with Burke running the show? He would need another high quality guard of course but with him, we could have some hope for the future. We have young players who are dysfunctional signed to big contracts that are not going away soon. 

[WTF]

Right now forget about turning the season around and play the rest of the season out as if it preseason and you're getting ready for next season. Time to give minutes to Mitchell, Datome and Siva to see what's what and experiment with bring one of our big guys off the bench.

Loyer has nothing to lose in fact it might help if he garner some positive results from it. Time to sit Bynum, reduce Singler and Stuckey minutes.

If I had to guess I'd say half of these players (Stuckey, Jebreko, Bynum, Billups, and Charlie for sure and perhaps Jenning's and Monore) will be gone next season.

[cool breeze]

I would love to see Zeller play basketball for the Pistons. This guy is going to be an outstanding NBA player. He has the special quickness and feel for the game and would work well with Drummond. I doubt that the Bobcats would agree to make this trade but just hoping for the impossible.

[Sparma]

Coaching could help a lot, Oracle. How long has it been since we've had a coach like the Bobcats guy? Larry, I suppose, and Carlisle and Collins before him. And shooting. Someone made the point that Jennings is not a bad shooter but that he takes a lot of bad shots; from what I've seen Jennings has good form as a shooter. Not that he's the answer (in spite of what he thinks), but there's plenty of room for better results from him.

In a way things could become real interesting tomorrow even if we stand pat. Why doesn't Loyer just let fly down the stretch as he's likely out the door with Dumars anyway? Can people really stop him from coaching the team as he sees fit when he's operating for the short term? If I were him, I'd definitely mess with the big man rotation, putting either Monroe or Drummond with the subs. It looked, very briefly, like Cheeks might be getting through to Smith about optimal use of his talents; I'd have Sheed working with him intensely (although Sheed himself would shy away from the basket more than he ever should have given his deadly array of inside moves). I'd really try to exert some pressure on Jennings in the 4th quarter, maybe pulling him from time to time. I'd work hard to run more of the O through Monroe. And I experiment with defensive sets, like zone, as he's started to do. I'd also give a good dose of minutes to Datome to see what he can do. None of that would turn the whole season around, but it'd give you a much better idea of what's what moving forward. And if some of it worked, you might just show the league that you've got some potential as head coach.

[Fennis Dembo]

Goats of the Game

Sponsored  by  Nick the Greek's Billy Goat Feta Cheese

Goat #3.  Monroe 5/15 shooting - minus 26 plus/minus
Goat #2.  Josh Smith  7/18  shooting - minus 26  plus/minus
Goat #1.  Pistons  Defense - 116 points - 51.2% field goals

Remember when your team really stinks up the joint, think of  Nick the Greeks Billy Goat Feta Cheese

[Oracle]

Jefferson whipped on their asses again! What a joke this season has become. Funnier Pistons trying to get Deng from Cavs

Last year I knew they would likely lose because of lack of talent, but this year, that excuse is gone!

Will Bynum is good in small doses, but he will at some point, if left in too long, try to save us all by himself!

I really hope Gores let's Joe do something, because these two defeats has completely exposed them on both ends!

[Oracle]

What a mess.  I'd hoped Loyer would make a significant difference.  Maybe he still will.  Including some zone seems like a good idea.  Tough to overcome shooting like that though.

Still interested in the trade deadline although I'm not expecting much.

Does the season then boil down to whether we land in the 9-14 disaster area?  

1. Coaching: We need a coach like the Bobcats have that will offset a weak offense using a well designed motion offense, and building a stellar defense(the cats rank in the to 4-5). Without shooters we can't his our inept offense, so coaching is needed to fix it!

2. Shooting: If you can't shoot you can't make a baby, oops my mind was somewhere else  . If you can't shoot, you can't win, and we can't! So if they don't do something by tomorrow, let's play the youngsters and start losing better than we have!

But I think your premise that tomorrow determines the season is essentially correct!

[WTF]

Jefferson whipped on their asses again! What a joke this season has become. Funnier Pistons trying to get Deng from Cavs

[Sparma]

What a mess. I'd hoped Loyer would make a significant difference. Maybe he still will. Including some zone seems like a good idea. Tough to overcome shooting like that though.

Still interested in the trade deadline although I'm not expecting much.

Does the season then boil down to whether we land in the 9-14 disaster area?

[Oracle]

Now, this is 100% coaching! Players don't just go out there and run whatever offense they  want, they're constrained by the offense of the coach(unless you're a superstar).

I've struggled to convince many of this because proving a negative is hard, but here is an example from an article on how Jefferson dismantles our bigs, but he has help as you'll see here!

"To prove that, let’s take a look at some of the things he did against the Pistons on Tuesday.

On this play, Andre Drummond cut off the baseline, forcing Jefferson into the middle of the court where there was supposed to be help defense!

Here was the situation for the Detroit Pistons: (1)Kyle Singler couldn’t help off too much because that would leave Gerald Henderson open for a three or a long-two, (2)Michael Kidd-Gilchrist forced Josh Smith to pick him up instead of helping out by making a strong cut to the basket and (3)Josh McRoberts was in motion of going to the corner to held spread the floor. Therefore, with no help defense in sight, Jefferson took one dribble and pivoted into the paint. Before he rose up, he hit Drummond in the ribs with his bony elbow to create all the space he needed. Then an easy hook-shot." - The Post-Up King: How Al Jefferson Schooled The Detroit Pistons

From this analysis, and there is more in the article, it's clear how using player motion throws the defense off just enough to allow a scorer the room and opportunity to do business! This isn't just something players do by magic, they're COACHED to perform in this offensive flow!

If you carefully watch the Pistons, they use a screening oriented offense designed to clear out an area for a player to operate. This is great if you have players that nobody can guard, because they're going to win those matchups with a high percentage. However, we don't have players that good, so it's a dismal failure.

The screening offense also works well if you have at least one great shooter, like when we had RIP! It works because the goal is simply to get the shooter a clear shot at the basket, but again, we don't have any good shooters, so obviously we're being poorly coached because it doesn't match the skill set of the players on the roster!

[WTF]

I love when Bill Simmons rips Joe.......Thanks Bill

[Oracle]

I state emphatically that there will not be any changes (major or minor) until after this season is over, when Joe is gone, and we know where we stand in the draft lottery. For all those who wonder what we'll do without Joe, let me assure you that there is life after Dumars. I'll only back-up off these predictions if someone can logically answer a few logical unanswered questions:

1. Why did Joe pass on Trey Burke, to give up BK7 and Middleton, so we could end up with an unwanted Brandon Jennings?

2. Who actually believes KCP will be a better pro (here or elsewhere) than Burke, and what's the supporting evidence?

3. Coming off a 29 win season, what was the purpose of signing Billups to a player contract? At this stage of his career and the state of our franchise, what was the business based point?

4. Resigning Bynum, to the contract he received, makes this team better than if that money was invested in a bigger, more team oriented, perimeter player?

5. Considering Dumars made poor decisions in two out of the last three (lottery) drafts, should/can he be trusted to make another draft?

6. As far as our big men go, would they be better off being supported by:
T. Burke, BK7, Stuckey, and Middleton  vs.  B. Jennings, Stuckey, Billups, and Bynum?

7. If this climate doesn't call for a major trade, under what circumstances will our GM deem it necessary to make a trade?

8. Why is Bynum in Loyer's rotation, but Harrellson and Datome are not? That would be change!!!

DX, this is a great summation of the debacle. One minor correction on Harrelson, he's hurt, so he can't play, but why Datome isn't playing is a mystery!

[WTF]

I state emphatically that there will not be any changes (major or minor) until after this season is over, when Joe is gone, and we know where we stand in the draft lottery. For all those who wonder what we'll do without Joe, let me assure you that there is life after Dumars. I'll only back-up off these predictions if someone can logically answer a few logical unanswered questions:

1. Why did Joe pass on Trey Burke, to give up BK7 and Middleton, so we could end up with an unwanted Brandon Jennings? Because he's Stupid

2. Who actually believes KCP will be a better pro (here or elsewhere) than Burke, and what's the supporting evidence? Because Joe saw it work on his PS3

3. Coming off a 29 win season, what was the purpose of signing Billups to a player contract? At this stage of his career and the state of our franchise, what was the business based point? Joe say's none of your business that the point

4. Resigning Bynum, to the contract he received, makes this team better than if that money was invested in a bigger, more team oriented, perimeter player? Not on Joe's PS3

5. Considering Dumars made poor decisions in two out of the last three (lottery) drafts, should/can he be trusted to make another draft? Hell to the NO!

6. As far as our big men go, would they be better off being supported by:
T. Burke, BK7, Stuckey, and Middleton  vs.  B. Jennings, Stuckey, Billups, and Bynum? Not on PS3

7. If this climate doesn't call for a major trade, under what circumstances will our GM deem it necessary to make a trade? Only if it would screw up team more

8. Why is Bynum in Loyer's rotation, but Harrellson and Datome are not? That would be change!!!Because it's Bynomite! watching him play

I hope this helps DX

[Oracle]

@Lemon - We all know that Cheeks wasn't the total problem, but he had a terrible user interface! He mumbled, was never sure who was playing, and generally looked dazed and confused! Nobody in the head coaching chair would put on that act on purpose... would they?

@Wise - Hey Wise Moose, drop the trade Moose Pipe! IMO, Moose will be gone by next season by the Feb deadline unless he gets that midrange jumper to start working consistently!

@Don - Yes, Jennings & Smith are the source of our pain! I could live with Josh in a pinch, but when you pair him with a guard as dumb as Jennings, it's pure murder! But Jennings is doing what he did with the Bucks! He's going to get his numbers come hell or high water... screw the rest of the team! He has two horrible problems!

1. His assists are like Chinese food, who cares because they don't come in the process of running the team, and therefore don't really have the effect of a full size assist!

2. He scores with good numbers, but there's two problems with his scoring. First, it takes too many shots to get his points, and secondly, he gives almost as many points on the defensive end that he becomes a net negative influence on your offense(should have kept Knight and drafted MCW or Burke).

You're also correct that this is mostly Joe & Gores! These are the two brainiacs that created this mess. I was on board with everything they did up until they traded for Jennings. I remember both you and I really not liking that move, but we eventually decided to try to make the best of it and look for the positives(sorry, there weren't any)!

@Seb - If they do nothing, it's a signal that the 2nd year owner is as dumb as nails! You're right, either he should have fired Joe or let the man do his job! Doing nothing hurts the franchise, not Joe, who he's going to fire anyway!

Gores should at most just limit the size of deal that Joe can do, but are we really surprised? Gores operates like a casual fan, not somebody that knows anything about basketball! Ok, he's likely got bigger fish to fry, so I guess he wants somebody he trusts to run this organization... we'll see!

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