Will to win!

[Oracle]

@Murph - Yeah, another black eye for the franchise, this time delivered by Gores! However, if you've had it with Joe, and you really made the decision to keep that pick, the best way to lose games is to change coaches in midstream! Unfortunately you're right, nobody wants Jennings, so we're stuck with him on for 2.5 more years... uggh!

@DX - I agree that Datome needs PT for us to make a logical decision on him for next season. Unfortunately Loyer thinks he there to win games, so he's not playing people he doesn't think can help(Siva, Mitchell, Datome & CV).

@Fennis - Dumars philosophy is simple: just roll the dice... unfortunately it keeps coming up snake eyes

Will to Win: One thing I noticed, especially since Cheeks has been canned, but even then, is this. In the 4th, I see the will to win from opposing teams, but not from this Piston group.

Will to win comes from an inner confidence in your game, a feeling that if you want it, you have the ability to go out and take it!

Grant Hill had it Stackhouse was loaded with it, the core of the 2004 team with LB had it! For it to work, you need both the will and the skill!

Moose is uncomfortable in that role because he lacks confidence that he can execute under 4th quarter pressure, but he does have the skill. Drummond has neither right now.

Josh inconsistently has either the skill or the will. Some nights he has both and others it's a crap shoot.

Jennings appears to always have the will, but seriously lacks the skill to pull it off.

A group of players that are destined to fold most nights when pressured by more confident clubs!

For Monroe & Drummond, it's mostly due to them being young bigs, and that can and will change. Unfortunately the others, as Barkely said, will never "Get It".

[Murph]

I gotta tell ya, I'm not a big Brandon Jennings fan and kind of resent the fact that I have to root for him for the next 2 1/2 years of my life as a basketball fan. That said, I agree with what he said in that article on Cheeks.

Now I don't know what went on behind the scenes, or how good or bad Cheeks' relationship was with Smith, Monroe and Drummond. But I can't help but believe the Pistons would have been better off riding out the season with Cheeks, as opposed to installing a lame duck assistant coach, with no head coaching experience.

I don't know if Gores was intentionally tanking the season by firing Cheeks, but that was the end result. Any last gasp chance of making the playoffs went down the drain when Cheeks what sh*t-canned.

And it could not have helped the reputation of the Pistons organization or Gores as an owner to can a well respected coach and former player, such as Cheeks, half way through his first season.

That was a huge unforced error on Gores' part.

[deusXango]

Get a GM in here who can evaluate basketball talent...KCP is not equal to Trey Burke! Burke, BK7, and Middleton are more valuable than Jennings, Billups, and Bynum.

Use this LAST lottery pick on the best SF available (Rodney Hood?) and pursue a veteran starting backcourt (Vasquez & Sefalosha?).

As much as I personally like J-Smoove, trade him along with Jennings for assets that make sense for the team...1st round pick next year? Julius Randle this year? (I know I'm dreaming)   

It's time to start building around Drummond with the best talent and basketball smarts available.

Throw Datome out on the floor for extended PT to see what we have and stop with the negative speculation....I'd like to see what he can produce once he gets comfortable on an NBA floor.

Do not renew Joe's contract, nor resign Stuckey! Those two have been joined at the hip as this franchise has gotten worse and worse; it's time for both to go.

If J.J. and Bynum can't be traded, buy them out...better bench veterans are available and those two are no more than sentimental favorites, because they've been here so long.

Let this be the last shameful season for the Detroit Pistons.

[Sebastian]

Dembo:  What is your philosophy on drafting college players?
Dumars: It's a lot like going to the casino and playing the slot machines.  You never know what's going to pop up.  You never know if you'll get  a Drummond or a Darko. Unfortunately for every  Drummond there is a Darko, Rodney White, and Mateen Cleaves.  It's like getting a lemon, apple , and a grape, while you hoped for three hearts. You get robbed.   That's why they call them one armed bandits.

Dembo:  What is your philosophy on trades?
Dumars: Now that's more like playing poker.  There are cards you want to discard and hopefully you'll get something better in return.  Take for instance the Jennings trade, I thought I discarded a deuce and a trey and was expecting an ace but ended up with a six. You win some, but you lose more.  The house rules rule.  When I traded Chauncey for Iverson I traded a king and got a joker.   Other guys like Afflalo get lost in the shuffle.
Dembo: Like Kenny Rogers sang,  "You've got to know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em."
Dumars: He was a fine pitcher for the Tigers.  He was great at picking runners off of first base.

Dembo: Right! How about free agents?
Dumars: Free agents are like going through the drive through window at McDonald's.  You know what you want. You know what you ordered.  But most of the time when you look in the bag you've got something totally different.  I ordered an allstar and got Josh Smith.  I ordered a three point sharp shooter and found a greasy Charlie V squashed in the bottom of my paper bag.  I ordered a twenty point a game  scorer and I got  Ben Gordon. Like Joe Pesci said in the movie Lethal Weapon, " Don't go through the drive through.  You'll get screwed every time you go through the  drive through."

Dembo: What has your boss Tom Gores said about your drafting, trades, and free agents?
Dumars:  He doesn't like my philosophies or as he call them pitiful excuses and exercises in futlity.  He's not understanding at all.   He quoted Freud, "If it's not one thing it's your mother."  I said," Don't you be talking about my mother.  Our heated debate did not go so well.  He had a poster of Daffy Duck with a broken wing put up in my office.  You don't have to be a genius to figure out he was calling me a lame duck.  I guess when you pay 400 million for a losing team you lose your sense of humor too.    Like Darth Vader he has turned to the dark side.   Just call him Darth Gores.

Dembo:  Coach Loyer said he will keep tweaking the defense for the rest of the season.
Dumars: Tweaking it is like putting lipstick on a pig.  The defense needs a major industrial strength makeover.  You might as well implode the whole thing and start from scratch.  Tweaking?  He would have better results having the cheer leaders twerking the team at halftime.  He might as well have the team performing Mongolian circus tricks.  The improvement would be about the same.  

Dembo:  Do you have any thoughts about your long career in Detroit?
Dumars: Most of it has been real and most of it has been fun, but the last six years haven't been real fun.  It has been more like a Charles Barkley elbow that rearranges your nose, painful and disgusting.
Dembo:  Ouch!   Or even worse, getting thrown through a plate glass window by Sir Charles.

Dumars:  And they called us the "Bad Boys", but we were really good.  Hey, that reminds me.  Will you take down my Christmas lights?
Dembo: I'm sorry.  We don't have that kind of relationship.
Dumas: Maybe Mo Cheeks will do it.  He's not busy.
Dembo: Right!

Another, well written and interesting, satirical account of OUR pitiful Pistons. Great job, Fennis!  

[Fennis Dembo]

Dembo:  What is your philosophy on drafting college players?
Dumars: It's a lot like going to the casino and playing the slot machines.  You never know what's going to pop up.  You never know if you'll get  a Drummond or a Darko. Unfortunately for every  Drummond there is a Darko, Rodney White, and Mateen Cleaves.  It's like getting a lemon, apple , and a grape, while you hoped for three hearts. You get robbed.   That's why they call them one armed bandits.

Dembo:  What is your philosophy on trades?
Dumars: Now that's more like playing poker.  There are cards you want to discard and hopefully you'll get something better in return.  Take for instance the Jennings trade, I thought I discarded a deuce and a trey and was expecting an ace but ended up with a six. You win some, but you lose more.  The house rules rule.  When I traded Chauncey for Iverson I traded a king and got a joker.   Other guys like Afflalo get lost in the shuffle.
Dembo: Like Kenny Rogers sang,  "You've got to know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em."
Dumars: He was a fine pitcher for the Tigers.  He was great at picking runners off of first base.

Dembo: Right! How about free agents?
Dumars: Free agents are like going through the drive through window at McDonald's.  You know what you want. You know what you ordered.  But most of the time when you look in the bag you've got something totally different.  I ordered an allstar and got Josh Smith.  I ordered a three point sharp shooter and found a greasy Charlie V squashed in the bottom of my paper bag.  I ordered a twenty point a game  scorer and I got  Ben Gordon. Like Joe Pesci said in the movie Lethal Weapon, " Don't go through the drive through.  You'll get screwed every time you go through the  drive through."

Dembo: What has your boss Tom Gores said about your drafting, trades, and free agents?
Dumars:  He doesn't like my philosophies or as he call them pitiful excuses and exercises in futlity.  He's not understanding at all.   He quoted Freud, "If it's not one thing it's your mother."  I said," Don't you be talking about my mother.  Our heated debate did not go so well.  He had a poster of Daffy Duck with a broken wing put up in my office.  You don't have to be a genius to figure out he was calling me a lame duck.  I guess when you pay 400 million for a losing team you lose your sense of humor too.    Like Darth Vader he has turned to the dark side.   Just call him Darth Gores.

Dembo:  Coach Loyer said he will keep tweaking the defense for the rest of the season.
Dumars: Tweaking it is like putting lipstick on a pig.  The defense needs a major industrial strength makeover.  You might as well implode the whole thing and start from scratch.  Tweaking?  He would have better results having the cheer leaders twerking the team at halftime.  He might as well have the team performing Mongolian circus tricks.  The improvement would be about the same.  

Dembo:  Do you have any thoughts about your long career in Detroit?
Dumars: Most of it has been real and most of it has been fun, but the last six years haven't been real fun.  It has been more like a Charles Barkley elbow that rearranges your nose, painful and disgusting.
Dembo:  Ouch!   Or even worse, getting thrown through a plate glass window by Sir Charles.

Dumars:  And they called us the "Bad Boys", but we were really good.  Hey, that reminds me.  Will you take down my Christmas lights?
Dembo: I'm sorry.  We don't have that kind of relationship.
Dumas: Maybe Mo Cheeks will do it.  He's not busy.
Dembo: Right!

[WTF]

I think our team represent exactly what Jerry West commented concerning the current talent level of the NBA. He's right the league is the weakest it's ever been and he also said that this years draft is the weakest it's ever been. We have a roster full of players lacking in fundamental and poor work ethics.

These are not future Magic, Bird, Zeke and MJ's coming in the league, these are not future KG, Moses, Kobe, and Lebron. The league is full of overly hyped players with minimum talent and skills.

Remember when every team had a super star really think about it even the scrub teams had at 2 players that could be argued as All Stars.

This team sucks, the league sucks.

Good thing is the league is going to mandate 2 years of college, something they should have done 10-15 years ago.

[cool breeze]

We need a young smart basketball person who has high energy and insight. No more coaching changes until we get a new man at the top and the owner will have to let that new man do his thing. The Pistons have nothing to lose. In the meantime, fans should insist on a change at point guard. Fans do not have to attend the games. Fans want to trust the owner but who can trust this leadership? Start Siva or convert KCP to point guard for the rest of the season. if Detroit can pick up Jimmer Fredette then do it now Mr. Gores or sign another player that might be available. Put the two current point guards in street clothes. Spend some money and admit your mistakes. Management has the money. If the owner wants to see fans at the Palace then spend the money. 

All we are hearing is the big question as to if Piston management should buy out Charlie V's contract. Charlie most likely is not serious because he knows no team is interested in his services. This is the end for Charlie. 

Perhaps Joe Dumars will advise the press after the Bad Boys celebration that he is retiring. That would be a smart move by Dumars. As of now it is not exciting to await the next Piston game. I purchased PASS for the purpose of watching the Pistons. If the same guards return next season, I will not be a sucker again.

[cool breeze]

Last years team was a LOT better than this team in a much stronger eastern conference.

It had a better performing starting unit and a better 2nd unit... all on lesser talent! Last years team would be strongly in the playoff conversation in this horrendous eastern conference.

In addition to being a smarter team, last years team had key players that had played together for extended periods leading the team.

That chemistry turns out to be a critical component of winning basketball! This team has absolutely no chemistry and no real leadership.

The logical leader, Josh Smith, is a player that needs to be on a team mature enough to lead him!

Jennings, a so called playoff guard, should also be a leader, but the sad fact is that he was so hated by his Bucks team, he never could lead a team.

Moose and Drummond would be logical leaders of continuity, but since they never really got to play together, they had zero chemistry between them.

The talent is here to win, but only if you can glue the parts together to create one cohesive whole!

It's a lot to place on an average coach, and Cheeks proved to not be up to the task, and Loyer, while having improved them in small areas, the fact of the matter is that a winning coaching pattern needed to be set early on, and now it's too late to really establish it.

I buy that we have some dumb players, but I don't buy that they're too dumb to be coached to win, and it's not as some say, that you need to keep on in simplifying the plays, as Cheeks did.

But those are arguments for another day, most likely once Joe has gone on to his next reward in that donut shop in the sky

Good post Oracle and I agree with your assessment of what has taken place except for part I highlighted.  I know me and Don kill this team on being a Dumb Team.  I guessing that both me and Don say it for the same reasons but I'll clarify a little more.   First I'll start by saying we have some serious talent on this team and I believe that this team is capable of learning more complex things on the court but they're all dumb for the reasons Barkley hinted at.

These players for all the dumb things they do and don't do in the off seasons to improve their game and their commitment to wanting to improve during the season and the off season.  Really it comes down to them being lazy and that's what I find so dumb with them is that they all seemed to have settled.  

I rag on Moose because because he rarely plays with the energy and passion he needs to play with. He's not inconsistent because the games dictates it but because he's lazy and he doesn't put forth a genuine effort to improve.  Honestly I would have rather seen Moose struggling all season with his mid-range shooting and low FG% because it would have at least indicated he was trying.  He won't get better at it if he's not doing it consistently in games and practicing over summer.  

It's not that Jennings don't know how to play the right way, he knows when he plays a certain way the team wins and play better. Still he consistently does what he wants to do, he's not dumb because he can't grasp the concept of the position he plays, he dumb because he refuse to conform.  

The reason why I don't kill Josh and he if any is the one player might have the hardest time of grasping basic fundamentals  and concepts of playing is because he's a pure athlete.  He just plays, he just hustle, he rebounds, he defends, he passes and he scores.  Josh doesn't want to be organized he just wants to play basketball.

I don't think Drummond is dumb but I definitely don't want Moose habits being picked up by Andre.  This kid is going to be special if things like complacency don't get in the way of it.  He could be a leader and franchise player of this team he just need to keep listening hopefully to Sheed.  I don't think Moose does.  

The players cannot hide what they are when they play basketball. Only 5 players can be on the floor at the same time so it is easy to determine what their potential might be. Who decided that some of the players on this team especially among the guards would have a high chance of success in the NBA? Can anyone guess who those people might be? It has to be Mr. Dumars and his staff along with the owners who are supposed to make sure there is some kind of accountability. Even the most loyal fan cannot ignore that the game plan for damage control when upper management screws up is to fire the coaches. Again, you have to have the right players to win in the NBA. We don't have those players. Why not concentrate on that instead of dreaming about having a different coach. Young guys in college are working really hard right now to learn how to become the best players they can be. There is great pressure if you play for a good program in college. You have to earn playing time or you sit. In the NBA if you can sucker a GM into handing you a contract, then you don't have to work to improve if you don't want to do it. We have too many players in that category. There is no other explanation. However, why is it that other GMs in the league were not interested in the players Joe Dumars wanted? can anyone answer that question? None of the hard working GMs in the NBA would be interested in problem players or players who have basic defects. If you have a lot of young players and especially big men, then no GM would sign Will Bynum or Brandon Jennings to a contract. No GM who is building a team to win big in 2 or 3 seasons would have signed Will Bynum to a 2 year contract if they had decided to take a huge risk in signing Brandon Jennings. Some of the discussions are getting silly. Smoke and Mirrors it is. We have dysfunctional players who think they have amazing talent. Notice Will Bynum complaining to the ref when he fouled a players shooting a 3 point shot. He clearly fouled the guy and he make a really stupid foul. Now go back a few weeks ago when Bynum turned the ball over several times and allowed his man to score almost every time the guy touched the basketball. Will was jacking up stupid shots as well. When coach cheeks replaced him, Will argued with coach Cheeks. That said it all for me. Bynum doesn't know when he screws up or has a very short memory. So two other stupid players go to Joe Dumars who is sleeping in his office and tell Joe that Cheeks has to go. Smith didn't like what Cheeks said about him and didn't like being benched even though Smith really sucked at the time he was benched. Smith looked like he had been taking sleeping pills. He was not into playing basketball. What in hell is a coach supposed to do when players do not play the right way? But the funny thing is that a lot of fans believe that Cheeks is at fault and is a horrible coach. Charles Barkley or Bill Walton will tell you upper management is at fault because the NBA is a place where really good basketball players who are committed are hired to play ball. We do not have many of those kind of players. It is as simple as that and no coach in the world would be able to get this crew currently playing for the Pistons to perform well enough to beat quality NBA players in that league. Just be honest and look carefully at what some of our players are doing when they get to play. Watch the effort they give when guarding someone. Watch how they set screens or move without the ball. Most just stand because this is a simple minded first level play kind of team that cannot play complex basketball. Just bring it down the court and jack up the shot. If the coach gets to see one pass he is lucky regardless of what he might tell the players in practice or in the locker room. Will Bynum and Brandon Jennings have never been able to play defense well at any level even in high school. Bynum was benched in his 2nd year of college because he couldn't grasp how to play point guard on offense and was the worst defender on the team. Somehow he has landed in Detroit thanks to Joe Dumars. A coach was fired because of Bynum and Smith. Bring Stuckey into the discussion and you can say the same thing about him. Look at the history Piston fans. The answers are there but good old Joe Dumars doesn't like to do his homework before signing players. He must go with his gut. Every game Pistons management brings out the same group of players that no other team wants on their team. But somehow some of you believe if only we had a really good coach things would be different. Come on we have idiots running this team.

[WTF]

Last years team was a LOT better than this team in a much stronger eastern conference.

It had a better performing starting unit and a better 2nd unit... all on lesser talent! Last years team would be strongly in the playoff conversation in this horrendous eastern conference.

In addition to being a smarter team, last years team had key players that had played together for extended periods leading the team.

That chemistry turns out to be a critical component of winning basketball! This team has absolutely no chemistry and no real leadership.

The logical leader, Josh Smith, is a player that needs to be on a team mature enough to lead him!

Jennings, a so called playoff guard, should also be a leader, but the sad fact is that he was so hated by his Bucks team, he never could lead a team.

Moose and Drummond would be logical leaders of continuity, but since they never really got to play together, they had zero chemistry between them.

The talent is here to win, but only if you can glue the parts together to create one cohesive whole!

It's a lot to place on an average coach, and Cheeks proved to not be up to the task, and Loyer, while having improved them in small areas, the fact of the matter is that a winning coaching pattern needed to be set early on, and now it's too late to really establish it.

I buy that we have some dumb players, but I don't buy that they're too dumb to be coached to win, and it's not as some say, that you need to keep on in simplifying the plays, as Cheeks did.

But those are arguments for another day, most likely once Joe has gone on to his next reward in that donut shop in the sky

Good post Oracle and I agree with your assessment of what has taken place except for part I highlighted. I know me and Don kill this team on being a Dumb Team. I guessing that both me and Don say it for the same reasons but I'll clarify a little more. First I'll start by saying we have some serious talent on this team and I believe that this team is capable of learning more complex things on the court but they're all dumb for the reasons Barkley hinted at.

These players for all the dumb things they do and don't do in the off seasons to improve their game and their commitment to wanting to improve during the season and the off season. Really it comes down to them being lazy and that's what I find so dumb with them is that they all seemed to have settled.

I rag on Moose because because he rarely plays with the energy and passion he needs to play with. He's not inconsistent because the games dictates it but because he's lazy and he doesn't put forth a genuine effort to improve. Honestly I would have rather seen Moose struggling all season with his mid-range shooting and low FG% because it would have at least indicated he was trying. He won't get better at it if he's not doing it consistently in games and practicing over summer.

It's not that Jennings don't know how to play the right way, he knows when he plays a certain way the team wins and play better. Still he consistently does what he wants to do, he's not dumb because he can't grasp the concept of the position he plays, he dumb because he refuse to conform.

The reason why I don't kill Josh and he if any is the one player might have the hardest time of grasping basic fundamentals and concepts of playing is because he's a pure athlete. He just plays, he just hustle, he rebounds, he defends, he passes and he scores. Josh doesn't want to be organized he just wants to play basketball.

I don't think Drummond is dumb but I definitely don't want Moose habits being picked up by Andre. This kid is going to be special if things like complacency don't get in the way of it. He could be a leader and franchise player of this team he just need to keep listening hopefully to Sheed. I don't think Moose does.

[Sebastian]

Yeah, I came around to joining the fire Joe club!

The early members, Fly & Wise, and one of their first recruits, Don, were eventually proved to be right!

I saw the problems and warning signs, but chose to ignore them... big mistake!

I must have been blinded by the fog from all of those powdered donuts, because when he hired Curry, against the advice of just about everybody, and followed that up with trading for AI, we should have known that he had lost his mind and thought he was smarter than anybody else in basketball!

The rest is a sorry history of bumbling that would be funny if it was happening somewhere else.

The only good things I can say about that Curry team led by Stuckey & AI is that they ran off a winning streak of 7 games, and made the playoffs... and oh yeah, they would kick this teams ass! BTW, that washed up AI was twice as good as this young Jennings! Fly called him a poor mans AI, we just didn't know how poor!

So bask in the glory of being right, you earned it as I and others attacked you guys with arguments to keep Joe, but were wrong!

I must admit that I am a somewhat late arrival to the "Joe Must Go Camp".

I overlooked Joe's propensity for making the poor personnel moves (mostly player-related) with the hope that he would snap out of his funk and start making a series of sane decisions, but alas it has yet to happen.

I actually think the decision to trade B. Knight and Middleton for B. Jennings, may be the straw that has broken the camel's back.

[Oracle]

Yeah, I came around to joining the fire Joe club!

The early members, Fly & Wise, and one of their first recruits, Don, were eventually proved to be right!

I saw the problems and warning signs, but chose to ignore them... big mistake!

I must have been blinded by the fog from all of those powdered donuts, because when he hired Curry, against the advice of just about everybody, and followed that up with trading for AI, we should have known that he had lost his mind and thought he was smarter than anybody else in basketball!

The rest is a sorry history of bumbling that would be funny if it was happening somewhere else.

The only good things I can say about that Curry team led by Stuckey & AI is that they ran off a winning streak of 7 games, and made the playoffs... and oh yeah, they would kick this teams ass! BTW, that washed up AI was twice as good as this young Jennings! Fly called him a poor mans AI, we just didn't know how poor!

So bask in the glory of being right, you earned it as I and others attacked you guys with arguments to keep Joe, but were wrong!

[Oracle]

Last years team was a LOT better than this team in a much stronger eastern conference.

It had a better performing starting unit and a better 2nd unit... all on lesser talent! Last years team would be strongly in the playoff conversation in this horrendous eastern conference.

In addition to being a smarter team, last years team had key players that had played together for extended periods leading the team.

That chemistry turns out to be a critical component of winning basketball! This team has absolutely no chemistry and no real leadership.

The logical leader, Josh Smith, is a player that needs to be on a team mature enough to lead him!

Jennings, a so called playoff guard, should also be a leader, but the sad fact is that he was so hated by his Bucks team, he never could lead a team.

Moose and Drummond would be logical leaders of continuity, but since they never really got to play together, they had zero chemistry between them.

The talent is here to win, but only if you can glue the parts together to create one cohesive whole!

It's a lot to place on an average coach, and Cheeks proved to not be up to the task, and Loyer, while having improved them in small areas, the fact of the matter is that a winning coaching pattern needed to be set early on, and now it's too late to really establish it.

I buy that we have some dumb players, but I don't buy that they're too dumb to be coached to win, and it's not as some say, that you need to keep on in simplifying the plays, as Cheeks did.

But those are arguments for another day, most likely once Joe has gone on to his next reward in that donut shop in the sky

[cool breeze]

The first half was very revealing. Singler was 4 for 4 in the first quarter but didn't get to touch the ball much. Jennings was inept at running the offense. Then the coach brings in the Pistons ace point guard Will Bynum. Dumars and Gores must be smoking too much weed if they approve of the way Bynum plays defense. He just cannot concentrate and always makes the wrong decisions on switching. He switches when there is no need to switch. Get your ass out on your man Will and don't place a big man in a bad position and leave your sorry ass trying to guard a forward. When there is no reason to switch, Bynum switches. He often forgets where his man is and tries to recover and jumps into the 3 point shooter. The foul is called and Bynum complains to the ref. It was clear that Will was out of control and hit the shooter in the first half but Will bitches anyway so how can a ref respect him? Then not long after that bungling display of inept defense, Bynum gives up the baseline to his man who makes an easy basket. What is Will Bynum bringing to this team that would warrant the amount of playing time he is receiving? Please tell me Mr. Gores and Mr. Dumars. 

I attended the U of Arizona-California game last night and watched the Pistons after returning home. The difference between Arizona guards decision making on both ends of the floor and Will Bynum is incredible. I mean the 7th and 8th players coming off the bench have more concentration ability and have a better aptitude to make correct reactions to situations than Bynum does. There is no way Will Bynum would get playing time on this Arizona team. He would have to transfer again.  And I doubt that Jennings could cut it either because he would be the worst guard defender on that college team and turns the ball over on offense much like Bynum.  The NBA is a different game for sure but it is clear that players like Singler know how to play real basketball and Will Bynum and Brandon Jennings do not. So how hard would it be for a guy like KCP to do a better than either Jennings or Bynum if he were to get a chance to play point guard? Don't you think the other players on the court would be happier? I don't see KCP as a selfish ball hog. Players on the Bucks team last season didn't enjoy playing with Jennings at all. Why did Dumars believe that Piston players would enjoy playing with him? KCP could dribble down the court and pass the ball to the open man like Smith. Then you move without the basketball and hope to get the ball back. You don't always start the offense from the same side of the court and you look to reverse the basketball at times. Arizona has a point guard who has had only one turnover in the past 3 games and runs his team really well. His team played against college teams that play really intense high energy defenses much better than you see at the NBA level. All the college guys seem to be buying into playing really tough defense no matter which team I watch. So why is it so difficult for our players to buy in? It is of course the selection of players Joe Dumars has given contracts to that prevents this team from showing any improvement. It is clear that over the past five seasons, the Detroit Pistons have shown zero improvement especially on the defensive end. But this team is even worse than the previous teams. We have taken a step back and will never be anything but cannon fodder for other NBA teams unless there is some sweeping change in personnel. Jennings, Bynum and Stuckey need to go find another home. Joe Dumars needs to find another home. 

One GM I see a lot of is Boston's Danny A. works his ass off traveling around the country to watch college players in person. Also, the Suns GM does this too. Those guys are not sitting in a lazy boy eating donuts. I wonder how many times Joe Dumars has traveled out West to see some of the great college players this season or any season. No Joe trusts his ace scouting staff who found Austin Daye, Rodney White, and Darko. I have seen at least 5 GMs attend Arizona games this year. How many games has Joe attended in person? He is a step behind and bases his decisions on a faulty crystal ball while other GMs are actually working. Yet perhaps it would be a waste of time for Dumars to do a lot of traveling to see college players in person. He cannot see what is going on in games with his own team. But how many GMs last year would have passed on Burke knowing that just by picking him, you would increase attendance in a big way? Even if he didn't like Burke, Dumars should have known his trade value. The Timberwolves received two first round picks for Burke. Meanwhile, Dumars selected KCP who played on a bad dysfunctional college team. Wouldn't it be better to select a player who played on a successful college team that played the right way where everyone plays selflessly to achieve a positive result? But what is worse, Mr. Gores gave his blessing to pass on Burke. 

Keep playing Bynum and Jennings and keep losing but you will also lose two key players in Drummond and Monroe and most likely Kyle Singler because nobody enjoys playing on a team that is continuing to flounder going in no positive direction.  Singler is coming into his own on this dysfunctional team in his 2nd season. That is a difficult thing to do. He will be in high demand and will be a good fit for almost any NBA team right now because of his high basketball IQ and his variety of skills on both ends of the floor. Is it possible to offer Singler a new contract now? Is so, Detroit management is really foolish not to do so.  Instead, most likely Piston management is trying to figure out how to re sign Rodney Stuckey. This coming summer we will be reading articles about Stuckey starting next season and there will be posters who will think for sure next year will be Stuckey's year. And next year Bynum will have more experience and will for sure become an All Star. 

It is time to send both Jennings and Bynum to the bench and try Siva or KCP at point guard or bring up someone for a tryout. The owner needs to step in and offer something else to the loyal fans.

[Sebastian]

Detroit, Cleveland and New Orleans. All had dreams of going from worst to first. All have top young players. So the ownership thinks it's win now time. But reality hit these owners hard this season.      

I give props to Washington, Toronto, Chicago, and Charlotte. GREAT JOBS! These teams new where they really stood, made the right trade for their situation and moved forward. No looking back!!     

Yo, Philip, I would add the Phoenix Suns to your list of teams that have performed well, so far this season. Even though the Suns took an ""L" last night to the Trey Burke Jazz, Hornachek has had these guys balling for 4/5 of the season.

[WTF]

FIRE JOE! FIRE JOE! FIRE JOE! I understand where everybody is coming from. But look deeper into the rabbit hole. That's all I'm saying. - PBoy

And all you'll find is a silly rabbit named Joe Dumars eating a giant bowl of Trix's. Say what you want about Gores expecting this team to win now, but it has nothing to do with all the rabbit turds Joe's left all over the place.

[WTF]

10. Sneaking in and eating all the Krispy Kremes in a players only meeting.
9. Driving the bus that he threw every coach and player under
8. Standing pat 8 consecutive seasons at the trade deadline.
7. Drafting Austin Daye over Ty Lawson because he like the movie Austin Powers
6. Passing on Kemba Walker because he was scared of Kimba The White Lion as a child.
5. Traditional PG's are antiquated
4. There are no Sacred Cows Speech while making everyone sacred.
3. Hiring Curry, Kuester and Lil Larry because he loved the Stoogies
2. Passing on Trey Burke because he could become the next Isiah Thomas and eventually coach the Knicks
1. Darko because he thought he was drafting the first Black Russian player.

[WTF]

You and I used to get clobbered for calling for Joe's head. Who's the dummies now? - Fly

Yep Fly they use to clobber us good both here and on Pistons Talk for calling for Joe's head. Now they're all repeating the exact same things we've been saying for some time now. We use to get that dumb argument about who you replace Joe with and that somehow justified their argument of keeping his Fat Ass now they don't care who replaces him as long as his Fat Ass gone at seasons end. Too Funny!

[FlyDog]

The East is downright awful. How long has it been since the Pistons were in the Playoffs.........going on 5 years? Gores has every right, after that long, to expect this team to limp into the Playoffs in the joke that is the Eastern Conference. Joe has had more than his share of time. All you have to do is look at the empty seats in the Palace to understand that Joe hasn't been doing a sufficient job for quite a while now.

If Brandon Jennings was the best he could do, he should have done what he does best.....stay put. Knight is the better player and teammate anyway.

[Phil-Good]

Detroit, Cleveland and New Orleans. All had dreams of going from worst to first. All have top young players. So the ownership thinks it's win now time. But reality hit these owners hard this season.     

I give props to Washington, Toronto, Chicago, and Charlotte. GREAT JOBS! These teams new where they really stood, made the right trade for their situation and moved forward. No looking back!!    

[Phil-Good]

In my opinion, demanding for playoffs or else this season was A mistake by Gores. Things would have had to go perfect and things did not work out that way.

Three year ago Gores said, "we are going to build this thing the right way. No Short Cuts." Then last season that mentality changed. At the end of the season, Gores said, "we better make the playoffs."

In my opinion, that changed everything. In my opinion, that comment put the Pistons in panic, rush, go from 7th worst in the NBA to top 8 in the East, in 9 months. Not likely to happen.

I understand the Josh Smith signing. He was young, talented and A top 5 free agent. It was A FANS! LOOK AT US, WE REALLY ARE TRYING; MOVE!!!

These two moves were the pressure, rush, playoffs or else, moves to me and I put Gores as the top person to fault for these two moves.

#1. No Amnesty of Gordon. You keep that draft pick to use as trade bate. Not give it away for cap money when you could have cut Gordon and keep the Pick. That's Gores saving money that he spending on fired coaches anyways. That was Gores call. I understand where Gores was coming from but it was A bad decision.

#2. Win now or else means real PG. BK7 is not ready. #8 NBA draft pick, point ROOKIE guard is not ready. Rondo is the number 1 choice; not available? OK, B.Jennings was the best available PG out there and Joe got him.

FIRE JOE! FIRE JOE! FIRE JOE! I understand where everybody is coming from. But look deeper into the rabbit hole. That's all I'm saying.

Joe might deserve to get Fired. His time might be up but no matter what Gores decides to do, get back to the rebuilding plan. Chill with the playoffs or else stuff. Don't be in such A rush to lose in the first round of the playoffs.

[FlyDog]

I ain't watching until they can his lame ass. When they traded for Jennings, I about pooped my pants. What a dumb move. I predicted 37 wins. Will they get there?

[FlyDog]

You know it brings music to my ears and eyes these days reading and listening to many fans, the media, and my forum buddies all say the things I've been spouting off about Joe for almost a decade now.   Yes he sucked even when everyone was proclaiming him GM of the Decade.  

Sure from 2001 to 2004 the team took off in the right direction and it seem every thing Joe did just magically worked out for the best. He was dumping salaries and in the process came up with 50 wins in Ricks first 2 seasons as head coach but he could do nothing right after 2003. I know he he trade for Sheed which was great but he also drafted Darko which in reality was like trading 5 or 6 titles for one.  I mean do you ever just sit and wonder where the team would have been or how much better they could've been if our roster included Melo starting and Prince backing him up.   Losing Memo and Corliss wouldn't have hurt as much I mean there's no way they couldn't have ran off 4 or 5 straight titles.  **** I bet Melo sits and think about that **** and calls Joe a dumb ass when he thinks about it.  Melo legacy would have been set in stone his first 4 seasons in the league if Joe would have drafted him. If I'm Melo I'll hate Joe forever.  Lebron who? Melo would have had at least 4 titles before Lebron and D-Wade could think about winning 1 title and this is why he should be royally pissed   

I told everyone back then and I'll say it again now that entirely too much credit was given to Joe before and after 2004 and everyone been riding that 2004 title win for 10 seasons as an excuse to forgive all the dumb **** he's done during that time but now the door will be slammed in his face come April.  He deserves it should have been done back in 2006

Joe legacy even with that title say's he was an under-achiever who happen to over-achieve for one seasons in 2004.   

You and I used to get clobbered for calling for Joe's head. Who's the dummies now?

[Sebastian]

Collins should have been hired by the Sac Kings...

PR Hot Spot!!!!!

1.  Rudy Gay's jersey showing in the background while Collins is talking to reporters...
2.  Promotion night:  "Sacramento Kings (and Queens)!"

Ok enough...just had to say it!

Gay (Rudy), Love (Kevin), Pierce (Paul), Sessions (Ramon), and Collins of course.

[Go Stones!]

Collins should have been hired by the Sac Kings...

PR Hot Spot!!!!!

1. Rudy Gay's jersey showing in the background while Collins is talking to reporters...
2. Promotion night: "Sacramento Kings (and Queens)!"

Ok enough...just had to say it!

[WTF]

Josh at least has definable talents, he just needs focus!

But is Jennings good at anything???

He can't blow by anybody, and Steve effing Blake kept Jennings in front of him with EASE!!!

Joe traded BK7 away for this clown?

I really agree with Wise on this one, Knight with Burke or MCW would have been a MUCH better backcourt than what we have. Any of those guys is a more potent 3pt threat, and you wouldn't be able to relax because they could blow by you and get to the rack!

But the bigger thing is that they all are smart players!

Will Bynum does provide some of that, and that's why Loyer is dissing Jennings, because Bynum has a sense of urgency and can get to the rim to score... Jennings can't!

Jennings is going to be hard to move because nobody wanted him in the first place, and now he's completely exposed!

Josh I could understand, but Jennings was a colossal unforced error by Joe!

Initially I thought Jennings was the right thing to do but that idea quickly changed. I think we sacrificed entirely too much for this dummy in passing on Burke, and trading away Middleton and Knight in the process. I'm still not high on Knight but we definitely be better off if he and not Jennings were on the roster.

I'm not mad at the Josh signing I think Josh just needs to be inserted into the right mix of players and allowed to just play his game. He can be controlled with the right PG and players around him.

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