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Cheeks

Post  Oracle on Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:28 pm

With that much time off and all of that practice, if you can't prepare your team any better than that, I'm at a loss for words!

However, I do have an observation!

IMO, the starting unit doesn't appear to be the problem, it's actually bench production that we're missing!

Chauncey is 100% useless, and Bynum is almost as bad!

Why in the world with these guys being so useless is CV,JJ, Mitchel & Siva not given a shot is beyond me, but it's a coaches decision!

This is officially getting very ugly, and IMO, Cheeks is clueless as to how to fix it!

But it's NOT the starting unit that's the problem!!!


Last edited by Oracle on Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Take Your Homerism Hat Off

Post  Oracle on Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:20 pm

Seriously?

What I posted has no homerism in it, you're projecting!

As Sparma pointed out, what I posted is COLD hard fact, that has absolutely no concern whatsoever about how well a player plays, just the DOLLAR value!

How do you read these things and come away with these erroneous assumptions when I keep making it clear!

@Sparma - I hear you, but again, if you include things that can't be measured, then there is no way to assign equivalent value!

That's precisely why I took it to a level that can not be disputed... the hard numbers! That tells you what's logically possible, and that's where you start!

One man's diamond may be another mans lump of coal, but if the items have equivalent value in terms of cash, then you have a basis of a deal.

Wise is thinking based on exactly what you're saying... emotion, not clear thinking!
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Equivalent value

Post  Sparma on Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:04 pm

There's an ambiguity regarding equivalent value that readily leads to equivocation.

Is equivalent value fixed by the CBA? Yes, in one sense; no, in another.

To clarify, it might make sense to say that the equivalent value of a contract is fixed by the CBA. There are rules about exchanging contracts and no ambiguity about that.

There's also the question of the equivalent talent or basketball value of a player. The answer to that question will sometimes be different that the contract equivalence indicated by the CBA.

Furthermore, equivalent value can take the form not of equal talent but of a financial asset (eg expiring contract) which is regarded as equal in value to the player(s) given up. So there seem to be at least three sense of equivalent value in play, which makes for a complex juggling act.

If contract equivalence were the only thing in question, it would be easy enough to find the equivalent value for Monroe, namely someone with an equivalent salary. Clearly, that's not a satisfactory answer in this case. Maybe Cousins would be a match Monroe in contract (at 4 mil) and talent/ basketball performance, but just about no one else would.

The more complicated question becomes whether there's a way of finding a talent equivalent and/ or a financial asset equivalent to the player being given up all the while honoring the CBA regulations concerning contract equivalence.

In the case of a potential Monroe trade, that likely means packaging him with someone else (CV?, JJ?, Stuckey?) so that CBA regulations can be honored at the same time that some kind of talent/ financial asset equivalent can be gained. Life on Dumars suggested something of the sort involving Monroe and Stuckey to Boston for Green and someone else.

Would all that be simpler if Monroe were trading having already signed a max deal? Yes.

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Take Your Homerism Hat Off

Post  WTF on Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:06 pm

Oracle wrote:
MOOSEFAN wrote:
Oracle wrote:Equivalent value is defined by the CBA, and my point that I keep making, but doesn't appear to have been made forcefully enough is this!

Fact: Monroe is at the end of his rookie contract!

Fact: Unless a player is totally horrible, he's much better at the end of a rookie contract than at the beginning! So if you think Monroe is the same, then you probably think trading him now with that low salary is fine, and you're willing to accept less... I don't believe that, and anybody looking to trade him now is financially irresponsible!

Fact: The smart, and IMO only way to get value from Monroe is to trade him as soon as you raise his salary! Then the following items are in effect.
1. He can now return more value, simply by you paying him more(CBA)!
2. And this one is the really cool part: You never have to pay him the new salary, so why in the world is anyone crying about how much Moose will get paid??? Give him the max, and he'll return more for you!


I've been saying this, but for some reason it gets confused about something else, and it's simply a practical matter of handling your business without all of the other crapola getting in the way!

These are interesting points you make but risky nonetheless and potentially costly if indeed GM does price himself out if given a max deal.  The large risk is what if the team can't move him and this line continues to struggle to work? Then what happens?  

No you package his ass up now with whomever CV, Stuckey, JJ or Bynum to get that return value today to match pennie to pennies (CBA).  Isn't this like saying if I put a price tag on a piece a **** I can get a diamond in return.  

Wow, if you can't see this, no additional logic will change a thing, but let me try!

Take your logic and assume it's true.

Then what dumbass GM is going to fall for the stuff you're selling?

Especially when your assumption is that Joe is close to the dumbest GM out there, wouldn't everyone else be smarter?

BTW, it's possible that Monroe could price himself out of the market, but try to use your years of NBA watching experience... When was the last time a big man putting up a near 20/10(or at least capable) with 4 years of experience was EVER priced out of any market?

Come on, let's get serious!

Okay put your Homerism to the side for a moment and realize this that the only one's making this assumption that Moose is a sure bet to be a 20-10 guy are mainly fans such as yourself. I'll include myself in that assumption as well but unlike the masses I'm not as certain but certainly sure that he can't be that guy in a lineup with Andre and Josh.

You still have a large portion of media talking heads, ex players, coaches and so on still wondering if he's already peak and this is the best he'll be and I'm sure this includes other GM's who are watching/listening and reading them as well. Sorry but you're making that assumption on how you think Moose may progress and the potential of value and it's not necessarily how others are seeing it.

Reality is Oracle when you take off that Homers Hat Moose is averaging 14.8 and 8 boards, still no mid range game and questionable effort and consistency, with serious defensive issues. Right know you're over-valuing Moose he's not a 20-10 guy yet and more times then not he doesn't look like one.

BTW if Joe is as smart as you think he is then why isn't Monroe holding a Max Deal Extension now? Likely because Joe already knows he has his Franchise Big Man (Andre) and his starting PF (Josh) because he had his own doubts about the three of them working out in the line up together.

If you read this with your Homer Hat on then you're not seeing my point as to why Joe need not risk holding on to him beyond the deadline because it won't be that easy to move him this summer. Even worse Joe may not be here to make that decision if the team doesn't start playing a lot better.

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Re: FORUM

Post  Oracle on Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:31 pm

MOOSEFAN wrote:
Oracle wrote:Equivalent value is defined by the CBA, and my point that I keep making, but doesn't appear to have been made forcefully enough is this!

Fact: Monroe is at the end of his rookie contract!

Fact: Unless a player is totally horrible, he's much better at the end of a rookie contract than at the beginning! So if you think Monroe is the same, then you probably think trading him now with that low salary is fine, and you're willing to accept less... I don't believe that, and anybody looking to trade him now is financially irresponsible!

Fact: The smart, and IMO only way to get value from Monroe is to trade him as soon as you raise his salary! Then the following items are in effect.
1. He can now return more value, simply by you paying him more(CBA)!
2. And this one is the really cool part: You never have to pay him the new salary, so why in the world is anyone crying about how much Moose will get paid??? Give him the max, and he'll return more for you!


I've been saying this, but for some reason it gets confused about something else, and it's simply a practical matter of handling your business without all of the other crapola getting in the way!

These are interesting points you make but risky nonetheless and potentially costly if indeed GM does price himself out if given a max deal.  The large risk is what if the team can't move him and this line continues to struggle to work? Then what happens?  

No you package his ass up now with whomever CV, Stuckey, JJ or Bynum to get that return value today to match pennie to pennies (CBA).  Isn't this like saying if I put a price tag on a piece a **** I can get a diamond in return.  

Wow, if you can't see this, no additional logic will change a thing, but let me try!

Take your logic and assume it's true.

Then what dumbass GM is going to fall for the stuff you're selling?

Especially when your assumption is that Joe is close to the dumbest GM out there, wouldn't everyone else be smarter?

BTW, it's possible that Monroe could price himself out of the market, but try to use your years of NBA watching experience... When was the last time a big man putting up a near 20/10(or at least capable) with 4 years of experience was EVER priced out of any market?

Come on, let's get serious!
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Reality Check: Equivalent value for Monroe?

Post  WTF on Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:09 am

Oracle wrote:Equivalent value is defined by the CBA, and my point that I keep making, but doesn't appear to have been made forcefully enough is this!

Fact: Monroe is at the end of his rookie contract!

Fact: Unless a player is totally horrible, he's much better at the end of a rookie contract than at the beginning! So if you think Monroe is the same, then you probably think trading him now with that low salary is fine, and you're willing to accept less... I don't believe that, and anybody looking to trade him now is financially irresponsible!

Fact: The smart, and IMO only way to get value from Monroe is to trade him as soon as you raise his salary! Then the following items are in effect.
1. He can now return more value, simply by you paying him more(CBA)!
2. And this one is the really cool part: You never have to pay him the new salary, so why in the world is anyone crying about how much Moose will get paid??? Give him the max, and he'll return more for you!


I've been saying this, but for some reason it gets confused about something else, and it's simply a practical matter of handling your business without all of the other crapola getting in the way!

These are interesting points you make but risky nonetheless and potentially costly if indeed GM does price himself out if given a max deal.  The large risk is what if the team can't move him and this line continues to struggle to work? Then what happens?  

No you package his ass up now with whomever CV, Stuckey, JJ or Bynum to get that return value today to match pennie to pennies (CBA). Isn't this like saying if I put a price tag on a piece a **** I can get a diamond in return.
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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:39 am

Orc, you make a good point... unless G.M. prices himself out of the market... If a team is trading for him now they are taking on a large risk that Monroe would like his new home & approves the extra percs of bird rights.
Point well taken.
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Merc

Post  Oracle on Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:37 am

merc wrote:The Pistons talking head is saying that the recent losses are due to Stuckey's bumb shoulder... buying or selling?

That's a strange way of saying that we're missing bench production!

Yes, it was coming from Stuckey, but we don't need Stuckey to get it, we can trade him for someone that can produce as well!
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Jow

Post  Oracle on Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:34 am

merc wrote:
MOOSEFAN wrote:When have Joe ever made a meaningful deadline trade? I can't remember was Sheed a deadline trade?
Yep

While that's true, it's very rare!

However, we're dealing with a new Joe(he said with legs, arms, eyes, and fingers crossed)

Let us pray  lol
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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:32 am

The Pistons talking head is saying that the recent losses are due to Stuckey's bumb shoulder... buying or selling?
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Reality Check: Equivalent value for Monroe?

Post  Oracle on Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:32 am

Equivalent value is defined by the CBA, and my point that I keep making, but doesn't appear to have been made forcefully enough is this!

Fact: Monroe is at the end of his rookie contract!

Fact: Unless a player is totally horrible, he's much better at the end of a rookie contract than at the beginning! So if you think Monroe is the same, then you probably think trading him now with that low salary is fine, and you're willing to accept less... I don't believe that, and anybody looking to trade him now is financially irresponsible!

Fact: The smart, and IMO only way to get value from Monroe is to trade him as soon as you raise his salary! Then the following items are in effect.
1. He can now return more value, simply by you paying him more(CBA)!
2. And this one is the really cool part: You never have to pay him the new salary, so why in the world is anyone crying about how much Moose will get paid??? Give him the max, and he'll return more for you!

I've been saying this, but for some reason it gets confused about something else, and it's simply a practical matter of handling your business without all of the other crapola getting in the way!
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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:39 am

MOOSEFAN wrote:When have Joe ever made a meaningful deadline trade? I can't remember was Sheed a deadline trade?
Yep
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Equivalent value for Monroe?

Post  Sparma on Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:33 am

I'm guessing that if Monroe were traded this season, it'd be for a wing, so it's tough to pinpoint the equivalence. Just going by the numbers, including age, Serge Ibaka and Spencer Hawes come closest, I think. 23 year old Monroe's at 14.5 ppg and 8.9 rebounds per game with a PER of 17.45. 25 y.o. Hawes scores 14.8, rebounds 8.8, and has a PER of 18.01. 24 y.o. Ibaka scores 14.1, rebounds 8.8, and has a PER of 18.03.

Subjectively, I think Hawes's numbers are a bit inflated because he gets more opportunities with Philly than does Monroe. I wouldn't see Hawes as a genuine equivalent, the numbers notwithstanding. Isn't Ibaka on a max deal already with OKC? His shot blocking and D would make him more valuable than Monroe.

Moose's crummy D needs to be taken into account, but on the other hand he's a hard working, high character guy (unlike Cousins, who has better numbers).

Based on age, size, scoring and rebounding, Monroe should be extremely valuable in a trade. Again, not sure how to calculate equivalent value for a SF or guard, but there's a general guideline to be cautious about trading big for small.

As to Joe's deadline trades, one site ranks the one for Rasheed as #1. Last year's Jan. 30 trade for Calderon, involving Rudy Gay, as well as Prince and Daye was pretty big too, or seemed so at the time.
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Oracle

Post  WTF on Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:50 am

When have Joe ever made a meaningful deadline trade? I can't remember was Sheed a deadline trade?
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Yes Change?

Post  WTF on Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:48 am

Oracle wrote:"I'm torn on a trade. Clearly we need one to redress the imbalance, but I'm worried that Dumars, with doom pending for him, will bite on an inferior trade for Monroe for short term advantage. Please tell me he wouldn't do that! I'd rather have the mixture of promising pieces in place for the replacement(s) next year. That includes, especially, the 3 man frontcourt. If we could pull off something involving Jennings and Rondo, or something in return for Stuckey and CV, go for it." - Sparma

Trading Monroe at this stage is something I find hard to wrap my mind around! Playing him at the right position makes a lot more sense, but still, it's a bit early to give up on our big 3, we need to really give it a whole season to work, but Joe may not survive it if it doesn't click soon!

Either way, I would be stunned if Joe traded Monroe!

For starters, it's impossible to get equal trade value until he's signed to his next contract, and more importantly, he's going to be one of those that if traded, will blossom into a beast somewhere else!

Monroe is a keeper unless you can get something better, IMO!

Besides, we have a lot of trade bait to move before we even consider Monroe! Stuckey, CV & JJ represent close to 20M, and that's got to be worth something!

What would be considered equal value? what I'm asking is what do many of you expect back in return for Moose?

Oracle that's a real possibility that Moose could blow up playing else where but with the current make up of this roster he'll never do it here as a Piston playing next to Josh and Andre. The guy that you guys want Moose to be Andre is steadily becoming and there's simply no room for them both in post unless Moose show signs of become an effective Mid Range threat which he's not even close to.

Really so what Moose blows up somewhere else if not next year rest to sure the season after Andre will be kicking Moose ass and dominating most of the league.

Value? It's a process of elimination not necessarily what we get back in return for him in player value. What we gain in providing the proper balance and fit to this team should far out-weigh what Moose potential might be somewhere else the reality for us is that something has to give because we simply want get what we think we need to get out of all three. One on them need to go and clearly Moose and the longer Joe waits to pull the trigger Moose value decreases.

If the trade brings balance to the roster and provide us with spacing then I say the trade was equal. This can only happen with a trading Moose but he'll never be a consistant 20-10 guys playing with Andre and Josh

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FORUM

Post  Phil1980boy on Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:54 pm

If I'm the Pistons I keep working the phones. See what I can get for Stuckey and Charlie V. A skill 2-Guard and A draft pick could help.

Keep working hard, stay steady, keep preaching Defense and continue to learn each other. The Tide can turn for these guys if they working hard. If not, then this might be the end for My main man Joe Dumars. If so, he had A good run.

Go Pistons!!
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Re: FORUM

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