Thanks for the heads up

[deusXango]

Don, I appreciate the in-depth view of what Gordon is all about; I'd rather have your assessment of a player at Arizona than rely on what the media types have to say. (Got mad respect for you bro'.) The piece about Nick Johnson was an eye-opener and I can't wait to see Arizona play, now that I know who to look for to perform at a high level. Again, thanks for getting back at me with the real low down.

[cool breeze]

Don, I'm glad that you stuck your head in, as I want to know more about this freshman, Gordon, you've got at Arizona. Reading the stats and hype, he's going to be a monster, but I know you've got eyes on, and a good judge of talent. 6' 9" and can do it all? What's the real deal?

dX Gordon is an unusual freshman player in that he is not at all involved in the game of building his stats while knowing that unless something really negative happens, he will be going into the draft next spring. First off, since he has been a young kid, this guy is a person who other basketball players like on their team because he is so unselfish. He has been MVP on almost every team he has ever played on including the McDonald's All Star game and the International team this summer when he won MVP while coming off the bench. Gordon might be the best help defender of any player in college. He is a quick jumper too and might fly under the radar until crunch time not trying to shoot the ball much if his teammates are connecting well.  Gordon is all about winning. He is also on a team full of really good players and doesn't have to do some of the things that the superstar freshman on Duke seems to think he needs to do for his team to be successful such as jacking up a lot of shots. I think his best gift is his work ethic. He practices harder than anyone that I have seen in a long time and never feels that he has proven anything until he does it on the floor during games and practice. He has a extremely high basketball IQ and has played 3 positions in college so far this season. He can guard a quick guard and also guard a lot of college centers. Relating to the NBA, Gordon needs to prove that he can hit shots from 10 feet out and shoot free throws better but lately his free throw shooting and perimeter shooting has gotten a lot better. Right now he wants to be part of a winning team and does all the dirty work for the team that doesn't show in the stats and the best part is that he is happy to do that kind of work. I am against almost any college freshman players going into the draft including Gordon. There is something big in a player's development that happens in a college player's junior season. You are no longer the young kid on the team who has amazing talent. You are the player who needs to lead the team and make the pressure plays that win or lose ball games. So will Gordon be a great pro player? I don't know for sure but he is a player I would love to coach and any NBA coach would like having him on their team because he will do whatever the coach will ask of him. That seems to be one of the problems with players on this current Piston team at times. Take Josh Smith for instance. While in Atlanta his coaching staff ask him to go to the low post and play offense in the paint. No way Josh has his own plan and that is to play outside the paint. Can the coaching staff in Detroit get him to play at his strength in the painted area where he can't be stopped at times? Does Smith want to become a superstar player? I think that this question is a no brainer relating to Gordon. He wants to become the best player is can be and will get there because he is open minded and will out work everyone else he competes against. And he was born with good quickness and great footwork.

Right now, the guy on the Arizona team doing that is Nick Johnson. He is the nephew of NBA star Dennis Johnson and his parents were both outstanding athletes. Nick has become a great defender and clutch shooter and play maker at the guard position. He can play both guard positions and is really quick with amazing jumping ability like his Dad, Jumping Joe Johnson. Johnson is really fun to watch. He is going to be a really good pro because he didn't jump into the draft. Dx I am sure you received more information than you wanted so sorry for the long post.

[deusXango]

First of all, it's silly to debate if Singler is a "Glue" guy!

It's a FACT that he is! Now you can debate how good a glue guy he is, but that's another discussion!

As for +/- numbers, I'm not a great fan of them either, but one thing is for sure! When you read those numbers think this way!

(+/-) = Intangibles

Oracle, I've got to admit that Wise is making a compelling argument against the real value of this +/- stat, and when you stated that +/- was equal to intangibles, welllllll, that really makes for a sticky wicket; if Singler is a glue guy, and +/- means something as far as intangibles go, then it's way past foolish to play him over Datome for the time he's been "holding things together."

It seems we're big on coming up with buzz words for the game of basketball, that are more important than what we see on the floor. "Combo guard. Small Ball. Bully guard. Glue guy." I've long held that "combo guards" were not starters, and ragged on Stuckey, because he was being forced on us as a starting PG/SG; now that he has a coach that plays him off the bench exclusively, he's the best player on the team! Every time we try to play "small ball" we get our asses kicked...been that way and still happening today! You can call Stuckey a "bully guard," but he does more than bull his way to the basket; he brings so much more to the game today and when he was a bully, he sucked. Now this glue guy off the bench...when did we have and who were the bench glue guys during our championship days? IMHO glue guys are starters, who lead the team in minutes played, because they play with the starters as well as extended time with the 2nd unit. They do a little of everything well, but allow others to step up their games; they're good at rebounding, assists, steals, and are reliable scorers, yet are not dominate superstars. I'd say Josh Smith fits that bill, better than anyone else on the team.

Here's a buzz word that more often than not is refused to be used for players that it fits..."mediocre players." I keep in mind that every player in the NBA was an All-Something from high school through college, but once they reach the top level, you'll find that because of the competition, some will be mediocre in the pecking order of talent. Being good doesn't make you great, and being mediocre doesn't mean you're not good, it simply means that there is someone better.

[WTF]

First of all, it's silly to debate if Singler is a "Glue" guy!

It's a FACT that he is! Now you can debate how good a glue guy he is, but that's another discussion!

As for +/- numbers, I'm not a great fan of them either, but one thing is for sure! When you read those numbers think this way!

(+/-) = Intangibles

 
Okay he's a Dollar Store version of Crazy Glue called Whacko Glue  No need to tell what the main sticking ingredient is the name say's it all.

Really I don't hate Singler just all he overstating and I don't think he's our best option on the bench. I'm not even say he doesn't deserves PT just as much as he's bee getting.

TW Drumond said he was the Glue Guy on this team  

[Oracle]

First of all, it's silly to debate if Singler is a "Glue" guy!

It's a FACT that he is! Now you can debate how good a glue guy he is, but that's another discussion!

As for +/- numbers, I'm not a great fan of them either, but one thing is for sure! When you read those numbers think this way!

(+/-) = Intangibles

[WTF]

How did a player value get measured before +/- was implemented. If there was ever a useless stat kept to measure the effectiveness of a players +/- would it. Do you honest think a coach is looking at this stat? when was the last time a player got paid, selected to an All-Star team based on is his +/- stats?

Maybe and just maybe if all things were equal or more comparable with the players on the court then it might have some value, but it means nothing if a role player happens to be in the lineup with 4 starters. I'm sorry but this +/- irks the hell out of me.

[WTF]

Do you really think they will resign all 3 for max amount?  I see them (big 3 or management) breaking it up.  Heat will try its best to keep 2, but I'd try to get rid of Wade due to his injuries.  Also, Bosh is not as good as they think he is, IMO.  How do you get rid of one after they have been known as the big 3 for so long?  There would be some ill feelings along the way.  I fear they may be stuck with 3 long contracts and aging/often-injured players in the next five years.  Lebron has matured and with the right pieces can make things happen.  Despite the fact that Lebron is a huge TOOOOOOOL!  I dislike him more than anyone else we play against.  Goes back to the days he beat us so badly while at Cleveland in the playoffs.  

Miami won't get pass Indy this year and see James opting out and heading to LA and getting a title the following year with Kobe. LA has a lot of young talented pieces and with a healthy Kobe they're a lot better than Miami would be, but maybe James happy in Miami. If that's the case it is likely Bosh that goes Wade will likely retire a heat before he goes anywhere else.

[deusXango]

Don, I'm glad that you stuck your head in, as I want to know more about this freshman, Gordon, you've got at Arizona. Reading the stats and hype, he's going to be a monster, but I know you've got eyes on, and a good judge of talent. 6' 9" and can do it all? What's the real deal?

[cool breeze]

What a game for Mr. Drummond. We can see during the games that he is working on individual weaknesses in his game really hard. His legs are bent low and he is moving the feet on both ends. This was a breakout game for him for sure. While Drummond is moving on a fast track to become a great center in the NBA, Monroe is stating steps in the wrong direction. However, Monroe is trying hard. He is not taking possessions off. It is just his makeup it seems. Drummond has the special gift that Monroe lacks and that is QUICKNESS. Drummond runs the court as fast as a guard and he is getting in fantastic physical condition. What a game? The Detroit Pistons have never had a center with the potential of Drummond and he has no mental problems. This guy is for real. He is out to become a great basketball player and has all the tools to accomplish everything he want to in this game.

The game ball goes to Drummond of course. However, I thought that Jennings played well last night. He does care about getting better as well.

My biggest disappointment last night was Smith again. He didn't even try to defend on a Philly fast brake in the first half. He was the guy back but just watched and that was in front of the Piston bench. What gives with this guy? And when Monroe fouled out, Smith never went into the low block against the extremely small Philly team. WHY????? Who would know he is the highest paid player on this team if you were watching Detroit for the first time last night.

[cool breeze]

I'm sure Datome will get his chance.  One of the things I like most about Cheeks is that he plays everyone.  Cheeks literally finds a way to get minutes for all 15 guys on the roster.

All Datome has to do is continue to play like he's been playing, and I'm sure his minutes will increase.

Murph I love the fact that Mo Cheeks is experimenting and allowing all of the players to get on the floor playing meaningful minutes. Last night Jerebco got some time and even though he made mistakes, I thought he added something at was missing before Monroe was ejected. Jerebco moved without the ball on offense. He didn't stand like Smith and Monroe did in the 3rd quarter of that game. Cheeks tried playing small ball with Jennings, KCP and Stuckey. I thought Philly skill players got the best of them but it doesn't hurt to try different strategy and keeps the players in tune and having more fun. Datome played pretty good defense last night. He is athletic and seems to have a good basketball IQ.

[Murph]

I'm sure Datome will get his chance. One of the things I like most about Cheeks is that he plays everyone. Cheeks literally finds a way to get minutes for all 15 guys on the roster.

All Datome has to do is continue to play like he's been playing, and I'm sure his minutes will increase.

[deusXango]

Murph, I appreciate the 82game.com feed you supplied me with, and I'm going to use it to educate myself to this +/- meaning; I actually don't understand the fine meaning of some of it.

Based on what I was able to decipher, Datome's "On court/Off court" numbers are much more deserving of extended PT than Singler's, even though as you pointed out, there's a big difference in % of time played, but that's been my point all along. Playing time.

I'm going to yield the point of Singler being a glue guy, because he brings a little of everything to the game, but I ask that you consider that Singler and Datome being the same size, Datome's extensive professional experience, and the known fact of how much the fundamentals of the game are stressed in Europe, Datome be given a chance, like Singler was last year. We have more to gain that to loose.

San Antonio's brain trust already know about Datome, and they wanted him; this is the player I'd hope we don't let get away, like so many others, because if we don't appreciate him here, he may be a treasure elsewhere and come back to hurt us, much like Memo Okur did for years.

[WTF]

Singler is absolutely a glue guy. He reminds me a little of that other high IQ Dukie, Shane Battier. Battier has always had mediocre stats also, and yet, he's the darling of every cyber metrics guy analysing NBA stats, because he always does the little things to help his teams win.

Look at the "On Court/Off Court" numbers from 82games.com. Siva has great +/- numbers, but he only plays 3% of the time. Datome has great +/- numbers also, but he only plays 10% of the time. Singler is 3rd, playing 47% of the time, followed by Smith in 4th place. - Murph

OMG! First Singler isn't close to the defender nor does he show up as being as clutch as Battier. Yes Battier had mediocre stats but he is light years above the impact player and Glue guy many think Singler is. That comparison stop both being Dukies

[WTF]

@Murph - Yea, I'm pleased with both Smith & Singler, but also have many of the complaints about each.

However, unlike others, but you and I see that it's going to take time to get to where we need to be, and it's the journey that makes this team so interesting now.

It's almost like the time when Stackhouse & the Alternatorz made their first push! They weren't going to win it all or even the east, but we could see progress in wins and talent!

BTW, I do agree with you about Cheeks! He deserves some award for what he's doing with Jennings, who showed a lot of promise last night, and Stuckey! While he gets the final credit, IMO, you have to give an assist to Chauncey! I'm sure he's in Stuckey's ear fulltime, and at least part time with Jennings!

Hell, we would have killed to have our 7-10 record under Lil Larry

@[/color]Wise[/color] - You're comparing Singler, a 2nd unit guy to a starter in Prince... seriously?

You're comparing a 2nd year player to a NBA champion, 2 time finals, 6 ECF appearances player?

BTW, it what you believe to be true is in fact true, both Joe & Cheeks must be some of the dumbest NBA level players on the planet to play someone so clearly "No Good" so many minutes!

Do you really believe that stuff?
@DX - I must confess I'm surprised you're in the Singler hating camp! I thought that the process of always looking to trade him was odd, but acceptable because any 2nd unit player is always subject to possible trade situations, and of course depending on what you get back, I have no problem there.

However, that has morphed into a virulent form of wanting to get rid of a player, and that's a bit different coming from you.

Finally, what part of this becomes hard to understand?

" In fact, Singler has the best +/- numbers of any regular rotation player" - Murph

 
I'm not really comparing Singler to Prince just pointing out what classifies an "Glue Guy"  I'm not saying Cheeks and Joe are dum dums in playing Singler mainly because I think he get PT by default (meaning there's no one else) not because he' deserving of PT.  You know like choosing your own poison
 
I have never been fans of +/- numbers they basically mean nothing because they're dependent on the other 4 players and there production.  It does mean that Singler's presence on the court is impacting a game either way.  My argument is this Example if Singler enter the game with Stuckey and Stuckey goes the hell off and our lead jumps to 15was it Stuckey or was it Singler? Singler gets that +/- ratio by virtual default not because he dropped dimes on the 15 points Stuckey produced and the assist are showing as part of his stats.

[deusXango]

@DX - I must confess I'm surprised you're in the Singler hating camp! I thought that the process of always looking to trade him was odd, but acceptable because any 2nd unit player is always subject to possible trade situations, and of course depending on what you get back, I have no problem there.

However, that has morphed into a virulent form of wanting to get rid of a player, and that's a bit different coming from you.

Finally, what part of this becomes hard to understand?

" In fact, Singler has the best +/- numbers of any regular rotation player" - Murph

Oracle, I don't hate Singler, but my thinking on the subject of trading him was that after last years performance, he had the juice of a first round pick! He's no longer got that juice, and is back down to earth, a low paid second round pick. After that dumbass move of giving up our 2014 first round pick to Charlotte (they should have been giving up their pick for us to take Maggette) logic made Singler's trade appeal go up, because we have a lot to compensate for. IMHO.

I don't necessarily want to be rid of Singler, after knowing what he can be, but I think he's too high in the rotation and I think it's a bad decision on Cheeks part to keep riding him. Yeah, I know what his credentials are, but he's not infallible, nor beyond questioning. I think it's time to see what we have in Datome, and for him to start getting his feet more than wet in the NBA, but play some meaningful minutes in the rotation. Why'd Joe go to such lengths to get him?

What's hard for me to understand about the +/- statement? Stuckey is in the regular rotation; the starting five are the foundation of the rotation, and even though he's now on the injured list, Bynum has a better +/- than Singler!!! This is why I wanted to know what the frame of reference was, showing that Singler was the BEST of the regular rotation players.

[Go Stones!]

Do you really think they will resign all 3 for max amount? I see them (big 3 or management) breaking it up. Heat will try its best to keep 2, but I'd try to get rid of Wade due to his injuries. Also, Bosh is not as good as they think he is, IMO. How do you get rid of one after they have been known as the big 3 for so long? There would be some ill feelings along the way. I fear they may be stuck with 3 long contracts and aging/often-injured players in the next five years. Lebron has matured and with the right pieces can make things happen. Despite the fact that Lebron is a huge TOOOOOOOL! I dislike him more than anyone else we play against. Goes back to the days he beat us so badly while at Cleveland in the playoffs.

[Go Stones!]

So, why don't we trade Monroe and junk for Randolph? He has more range and more of a fit for PF. His next year is player option. The only negative is that we wouldn't have him back up Dre at Center....

I'm smelling that Monroe is on his way out. He does fine, then stinks it up against true competition. His attitude is what stinks the most! Always complaining and scowling at the refs like he is always an angel.

[Go Stones!]

I believe we are gelling much more than the first few games. I also saw great improvements in Smith and Jennings working on NOT shooting as much (ok, just a little less) and doing the other things that are necessary. Stuckey coming alive and leading and Drummond actually being there for put-backs when the 3s are taken. That IS KEY! The comment that Cheeks doesn't think Jennings is a PG...yet, makes me think that he is a work in progress. I love how he played last night.

We lose to anyone over .500 and win against anyone below .500...in general. However, some of the teams are still settling down. Here is how the teams above Detroit pan out:

Indiana: We don't have a good matchup b/c their center equals Drummond, and we can't defend their 3s.
Miami: They had a hard time beating us at times last year. I think Drummond will be huge against Bosh or whoever plays center. I believe we would match up against them pretty favorably. They have the star power that we are missing.

Atlanta: We can beat them later in the year as we meld together.

Toronto: We will be ranked above them.

Washington: We killed them!

Chicago: Without Rose they are a different team. We may match up well with them, but they are a good team.

Charlotte: They just lost their best player. This may cost them the year.

The rest of the teams are licking their wounds and have injured players. Knicks, NJ, Cleveland should be better than they are. How many people had these teams much higher than they are? Many! So, b/c they are losing it puts Detroit higher in the ranks...as long as they keep playing to their hardest ability and gain some momentum along the way. Bucks, Orlando, Philly, Boston are destined for the bottom.

I think we can fight for 3rd place with Atlanta and Chicago. This puts us in the 3-5th place. Maybe we can do some upsetting in the playoffs.

[Murph]

"Singler is not in the same class as Smith!!!"

I never said Singler was in the same class as Smith.  In fact, I started out saying "Smith's the biggest name free agent to ever sign with the Pistons...and for that I am grateful."

Singler, OTOH, was a 2nd round pick.


"Singler ain't no glue guy! Glue guy's are not needed on a 2nd unit; offensive or defensive whiz's are and Singler is not showing to be either. Plays don't have to be run for players, players find their own opportunities to score, Singler just blows his (.408 FG, and .235 from behind the 3 point line). I don't know where you came up with those +/- numbers that proves Singler is the best in the rotation, but as an example, in last nights win there were only 4 players with - numbers in the +/- and they were Mitchell -2, Datome -2, Siva -1, and Singler -2; Singler is always on the -side."

Singler is absolutely a glue guy.  He reminds me a little of that other high IQ Dukie, Shane Battier.  Battier has always had mediocre stats also, and yet, he's the darling of every cyber metrics guy analysing NBA stats, because he always does the little things to help his teams win.

Look at the "On Court/Off Court" numbers from 82games.com.  Siva has great +/- numbers, but he only plays 3% of the time.  Datome has great +/- numbers also, but he only plays 10% of the time.  Singler is 3rd, playing 47% of the time, followed by Smith in 4th place.

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314DET.HTM



"Murph, do you secretly have desires for Singler to be our starting SF? If you do, say that, I can respect that, but right now Singler is sucking in the 6th or 7th man role. Realgm.com is my frame of reference and Stuckey (our super sub) leads the team in player averages and comes in at #33 league wide, followed by #42 Jennings, #56 Monroe, #62 Smith, #71 Drummond, #158 KCP, and #168 Singler. If Singler was all some think he is, I'd think he'd come in rated higher than KCP, and no lower than #99!! Personally I think Cheeks can do better, with who's available on the roster right now..."

No, I don't want Singler to start.  In fact, I think Cheeks has come up with pretty much the optimal rotation, given his roster.  I like Cheek's substitution patterns, when he starts Smith, Monroe and Drummond, and then rests one of them by subbing in Singler.  And I more or less agree with the rankings you provided, which makes Singler the 7th man in the rotation.

[Oracle]

@Murph - Yea, I'm pleased with both Smith & Singler, but also have many of the complaints about each.

However, unlike others, but you and I see that it's going to take time to get to where we need to be, and it's the journey that makes this team so interesting now.

It's almost like the time when Stackhouse & the Alternatorz made their first push! They weren't going to win it all or even the east, but we could see progress in wins and talent!

BTW, I do agree with you about Cheeks! He deserves some award for what he's doing with Jennings, who showed a lot of promise last night, and Stuckey! While he gets the final credit, IMO, you have to give an assist to Chauncey! I'm sure he's in Stuckey's ear fulltime, and at least part time with Jennings!

Hell, we would have killed to have our 7-10 record under Lil Larry

@Wise - You're comparing Singler, a 2nd unit guy to a starter in Prince... seriously?

You're comparing a 2nd year player to a NBA champion, 2 time finals, 6 ECF appearances player?

BTW, it what you believe to be true is in fact true, both Joe & Cheeks must be some of the dumbest NBA level players on the planet to play someone so clearly "No Good" so many minutes!

Do you really believe that stuff?

@DX - I must confess I'm surprised you're in the Singler hating camp! I thought that the process of always looking to trade him was odd, but acceptable because any 2nd unit player is always subject to possible trade situations, and of course depending on what you get back, I have no problem there.

However, that has morphed into a virulent form of wanting to get rid of a player, and that's a bit different coming from you.

Finally, what part of this becomes hard to understand?

" In fact, Singler has the best +/- numbers of any regular rotation player" - Murph

[deusXango]

I (and maybe Oracle) seem to be the only members of this forum that like both Smith and Singler as players.  Granted they've both been inconsistent so far this season, especially on the defensive end.  But both work hard and hustle, and in order for this team to be successful and make the playoffs, both are going to have to contribute more and play better.
The difference between Singler and Smith, in their inconsistencies, is Smith either leads the team or is ranked high (2-3) in the major categories, whereas Singler is an afterthought. There is truth in that, they both must contribute more or play better to make some noise in the playoffs.

Smith, IMO, made a big sacrifice to come here.  He might not have been the most sought after free agent last season, but Smith's the biggest name free agent to ever sign with the Pistons...and for that I am grateful.
I agree with that 100%!!  

The other thing about Smith that must be remembered is that he's playing out of position.  Smith played mostly PF for the Hawks for the last 6 seasons, with a great deal of success.  So there's bound to be a learning curve for Smith, in makig the switch back to SF.  And even though Smith has struggled playing SF at times, he plays his hardest every night and never complains.  Does his perimeter defense and 3 pt shooting need improvement?...sure.  But that will come with time (I hope).  And in the meantime, Smith still does a lot of things very well, like scoring inside, rebounding and passing the ball.
I'm sorry, but the interior defense seems to be a work in progress and the points scored against us are coming mainly from the perimeter. I'm glad that we have Smith instead of Prince, Daye, or Singler starting at SF. I think a lot of people had Singler penciled in to start at SF this year, and since we signed Smith, they continue the Atlanta PF talk, without appreciating what Smith is doing in Detroit at SF; Singler is not in the same class as Smith!!!

Singler is a very different player.  Yes...he is a glue guy.  He hustles, moves without the ball, finds open teammates, and spaces the floor well.  Like Smith, [/b]Singler obviously needs to improve his outside shot and perimeter D.[/b]  But I am unconcerned with his lack of production.  No plays are ever run for Singler, and his teammates don't exactly look for him either.  Maybe if he shot better, he'd get more touches.  But the thing I like most about Singler is that the Pistons play better when he's on the floor.  In fact, Singler has the best +/- numbers of any regular rotation player, which is undoubtedly the reason Cheeks plays him so much.    And after this many games, Singler's +/- numbers cannot be a statistical fluke.
Singler ain't no glue guy! Glue guy's are not needed on a 2nd unit; offensive or defensive whiz's are and Singler is not showing to be either. Plays don't have to be run for players, players find their own opportunities to score, Singler just blows his (.408 FG, and .235 from behind the 3 point line). I don't know where you came up with those +/- numbers that proves Singler is the best in the rotation, but as an example, in last nights win there were only 4 players with - numbers in the +/- and they were Mitchell -2, Datome -2, Siva -1, and Singler -2; Singler is always on the -side.


IMO, the other thing that this forum needs to do, is to stop making up trades to move half our roster.  And I'm as guilty of this as anyone.  But realistically speaking, this is probably the set roster that we'll have after the trade deadline.  So rather than focusing on what we don't have, we as fans need to focus on the players we have and hope they begin to mesh better as a unit.  It's already beginning to happen.  Let's hope it continues.
Singler, Jerebko, and Bynum are not half the team, but should be sufficient to get us an upgraded SG; we need a SG more than the combined salaries of those unneeded (they're not worthless because we don't need them) players is what I believe fans are trying to express.

Now if we could just get Smith and Singler to defend the damn perimeter and hit their outside shots, we might make some noise.  But one thing's  for sure, even with all the flaws, this is the best, most exciting, most interesting Pistons team we've had in 6 years.
True 'dat. With 2-3 more wins we'd be firmly the 4th seed if the playoffs started today; with what remains of this season, those games will be more than made up. The excitement for me is, I know we'll go on a winning streak(s), eventually, and not have those loosing streaks like in days gone by.

Murph, do you secretly have desires for Singler to be our starting SF? If you do, say that, I can respect that, but right now Singler is sucking in the 6th or 7th man role. Realgm.com is my frame of reference and Stuckey (our super sub) leads the team in player averages and comes in at #33 league wide, followed by #42 Jennings, #56 Monroe, #62 Smith, #71 Drummond, #158 KCP, and #168 Singler. If Singler was all some think he is, I'd think he'd come in rated higher than KCP, and no lower than #99!! Personally I think Cheeks can do better, with who's available on the roster right now, than to keep running Singler out there; Singler played less than his season MPG average last night and we won handily. Heck of a coincidence, huh?

[WTF]

I enjoyed Josh Smith in Atlanta and I love him here as a Pistons. I really have no complaints with Josh Smith I think his short comings are over-stated and often prejudged. People think they're seeing something when in reality it's not there. Josh can jack up what some might consider bad shots most times they're not, they might be misses but they're not bad shots but in the mind of the preconceived everything bad about Josh becomes true. Does Josh take anymore ill-advised shots than Moose, Bynum, Stuckey or any other player? the answer is no. Josh does entirely too much for this team.

Kyle Singler is not a Glue Guy and he does not make player better when he's on the floor. Where re the numbers to prove that? Prince never had play ran for him but you could see where having Prince on the floor made a difference and measure his impact in games. You could see it in Prince's numbers at the end of games we don't get this from Singler. His assist totals doesn't reflect this claim of glue guy, and his defense is horrid.

Definition of Glue Guy: Always make the right plays, don't turn the ball over, medium assist totals, and rebound totals, always in the right spot, create shots for themselves, make clutch plays, impacts wins with big headed plays and are usually above average defenders, shows some form of leadership more importantly Glue Guys are seasoned veterans not 2 year players. Sorry Folks Singler does none of these thing neither consistently or well and doesn't meet the criteria for being Glue Anything

[Murph]

I (and maybe Oracle) seem to be the only members of this forum that like both Smith and Singler as players. Granted they've both been inconsistent so far this season, especially on the defensive end. But both work hard and hustle, and in order for this team to be successful and make the playoffs, both are going to have to contribute more and play better.

Smith, IMO, made a big sacrifice to come here. He might not have been the most sought after free agent last season, but Smith's the biggest name free agent to ever sign with the Pistons...and for that I am grateful.

The other thing about Smith that must be remembered is that he's playing out of position. Smith played mostly PF for the Hawks for the last 6 seasons, with a great deal of success. So there's bound to be a learning curve for Smith, in makig the switch back to SF. And even though Smith has struggled playing SF at times, he plays his hardest every night and never complains. Does his perimeter defense and 3 pt shooting need improvement?...sure. But that will come with time (I hope). And in the meantime, Smith still does a lot of things very well, like scoring inside, rebounding and passing the ball.

Singler is a very different player. Yes...he is a glue guy. He hustles, moves without the ball, finds open teammates, and spaces the floor well. Like Smith, [/b]Singler obviously needs to improve his outside shot and perimeter D.[/b] But I am unconcerned with his lack of production. No plays are ever run for Singler, and his teammates don't exactly look for him either. Maybe if he shot better, he'd get more touches. But the thing I like most about Singler is that the Pistons play better when he's on the floor. In fact, Singler has the best +/- numbers of any regular rotation player, which is undoubtedly the reason Cheeks plays him so much. And after this many games, Singler's +/- numbers cannot be a statistical fluke.


IMO, the other thing that this forum needs to do, is to stop making up trades to move half our roster. And I'm as guilty of this as anyone. But realistically speaking, this is probably the set roster that we'll have after the trade deadline. So rather than focusing on what we don't have, we as fans need to focus on the players we have and hope they begin to mesh better as a unit. It's already beginning to happen. Let's hope it continues.

Now if we could just get Smith and Singler to defend the damn perimeter and hit their outside shots, we might make some noise. But one thing's for sure, even with all the flaws, this is the best, most exciting, most interesting Pistons team we've had in 6 years.

[Murph]

Man, we really needed that win.  And it's always really fun to watch when Pistons are playing well against weaker competition.  

Drummond and Jennings were the story of the game.  Drummond had a monster game with 33 pts, 19 rbds and 6 stls.  And Jennings worked hard to distribute the ball, picking up 12 asts to go with his 20 pts and 5 rbds.  And Jennings decision making is improving steadily.

Stuckey had another nice game with 17 off the bench.

The job Cheeks has done re-working his two PGs' games is nothing short of a miracle.  Jennings and Stuckey are both beginning to play like completely new and improved players.  For that alone, Cheeks is proving himself to be without question the best coach the Pistons have had since Flip Saunders.

Josh Smith played well, chipping in 20 pts, and 5 asts.

Tony Mitchell contibuted in just 3 minutes.

We destroyed Philly on the boards 57-41.

Monroe needs to stop bitching at the refs.

Next up, Miami, Milwaukee and Chicago on the road, then back home to face the Heat again.  It would be nice to somehow split the next 4 games, but realistically we might have to settle for 1-3.  

[WTF]

Something tells me that not one Piston will be voted in this year but 2 will likely be selected by the coaches. Welcome Mr. Stuckey as a coaches selection. If Drummond can put together more games like this one he likely get an nod from the coaches as well.

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